File talk:Ace Dies.png

Edit War
Same issue with File:Ace Saves Luffy.png: Both images have good quality. However, the manga image lacks colorization and the anime image lacks detail (necklace). 02:06, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

It's protocol. We ALWAYS use the manga photo if the anime counterpart has significant differences. [my point? Whitebeard getting his head blown off in the manga instead of his mustache] This is just as major. colorization isn't enough reason to use a non-canon photograph, especially when it creates a plot hole while the necklace is intact on his grave. M4ND0N (talk) 16:50, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

The difference is in the Whitebeard image, the whole point of it WAS that half his face got blown off. The point of this image has nothing to do with the necklace. It has to do with Ace dying. 18:11, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

We replaced the photo where Franky finds Kuma guarding the Sunny with the photo from the manga because he wasn't as battered up in the anime. That's way more minor than Ace's necklace being destroyed. it doesn't matter if both images show him dead, Ace doesn't lose his necklace in the manga. that's more than significant enough to warrant using the manga photo. M4ND0N (talk) 00:21, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

The Franky/Kuma image was about him being battered up. This image is not about the necklace. It's a minor detail that doesn't effect the scene. 01:17, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

Neither does the Franky/Kuma image. He's still battered up in the anime photo and it does the same job the manga photo would, but we used the manga panel instead. Why? Because we follow the canonicity of the story. Ace's necklace not being there isn't a minor detail because it creates a plot hole in regards to his gravestone having the necklace intact. As far as anime/manga differences go, Ace's necklace is one of the bigger ones and we've used manga photos for less. It's how we've always done things here, if an anime photo doesn't follow the manga closely enough then we use the manga photo. there really shouldn't even be a debate here, it's what we do with EVERY similar situation. M4ND0N (talk) 01:37, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

We only do it if it's major. If the anime image has many details missing and doesn't portray the scene enough, then we use the manga. This is not one of those cases. And please stop uploading the manga images separately. It violates the guidelines and can be treated as vandalism. 01:43, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

You already took that to my talk page and I admit I made a mistake there, let's stay on topic though. Like I already said, Ace losing his necklace IS major, and we've replaced anime photos with their manga counterparts for far less than that. Does it convey the scene? Sure, but you could say that for any of Toei's adaptions of the manga scenes, it doesn't make it viable to use in a wiki that only goes by canonical facts. Ace doesn't lose his necklace, therefore the anime pic isn't canon, so I can't understand why it's even an issue. What harm is there in using the manga photos since the anime counterparts make significant changes to the original depiction? M4ND0N (talk) 03:31, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

What harm is there in keeping the anime image, which nobody had a problem with until you started complaining about it? It doesn't make a significant change. The necklace is missing. So what? If you want to get that specific, we may as well change EVERY anime image to manga since color doesn't exist. 04:04, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

Well there you go, now I know that color is your motivation for wanting the image to stay the way it is. You have a bias leaning towards wanting everything in the article to be colored, while all I want to do is make it more consistent to the canonicity of the story. Can we get an admin in here to help decide this? Obviously this debate is going nowhere if we don't have outside opinions to contribute. Again, I stand by what I said. the anime image isn't canon and therefore shouldn't be used. M4ND0N (talk) 05:33, June 14, 2013 (UTC).

If we can't come to a conclusion, we should have a poll. 09:15, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

I think that the anime image is better because it can perfectly describe the scene. But Lelouch, you can't make a poll when only 3 people have stated their opinion. We need input. 10:09, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

What is the minimum amount of people needed in order to start a poll? 10:11, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

There is no minimun amount of people but we definitely need more than three people's opinion to start a poll. 10:14, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

It's true that it describes the seen just fine, I'll admit that. But going back to the Franky/Kuma meeting that worked just as well to convey the scene, but we still use the manga photo, so I'm basing my opinion off consistency, because whether or not a photo works to convey a scene, that doesn't necessarily mean it should be used if Toei decides to make drastic changes to the art, like in the case of Ace's necklace. With that being said, a poll would work but like Lelouch said we don't have enough people. M4ND0N (talk) 14:50, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

The anime version is quite nice. However, the manga version helps to convey better the "shock" of that scene that adds something extra to it. Notice all the amount of blood underneath Ace's head and upper body that comes in contrast with the peaceful smile he has. There is also a technical issue with the missing necklace. Since it appears afterwards in his grave it is important enough to be visible in his death scene. MasterDeva (talk) 16:35, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

I honestly don't know if the presence of color is more important than the loss of the necklace. This would be an image where a colored manga image would be best in my mind, but we don't allow those here... So I am neutral, I guess. 17:05, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

Do we have enough people to do a poll yet? Because like SomeDude said the presence of color is nice, but the loss of necklace is more significant. And I agree fully MasterDeva, the manga panel looks far more violent and works a lot better. M4ND0N (talk) 00:01, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I wasn't talking about violence... Well, nevermind. MasterDeva (talk) 09:45, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

My mistake, yeah. I was referencing what you said about all the blood and how it appears more violent because of it in my eyes. M4ND0N (talk) 16:19, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

As I said above, I am neutral. But color is really important, since it's really hard to differentiate black blood from shadows in the manga (at least in the pools around him). My gut reaction is to say use the manga anyways, but then I think about the intended use for the image is just to show Ace dead, and has nothing to do with the necklace. That's why I'm neutral here.

And depending on the outcome, Ace's his anime/manga differences section doesn't show the change in the necklace, which it should, regardless of the outcome. Once this is resolved, the losing version should be uploaded separately and both images put in the section. 12:42, July 1, 2013 (UTC)

Good example of a picture that works better in black and white (and quite unusually, it remains legible even as a thumbnail). I wholly support the manga pic.

That doesn't make any sense at all. Its the same image but only difference is one is colored so both work "better". SeaTerror (talk) 21:50, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

The difference is the beaded necklace. Pretty significant. M4ND0N (talk) 16:58, July 8, 2013 (UTC)

I think you need to look uo the word "significant" in the dictionary. SeaTerror (talk) 17:15, July 8, 2013 (UTC)

Poll it 20:25, July 8, 2013 (UTC)

Why wait? 09:27, July 9, 2013 (UTC)

Bump. 09:14, July 12, 2013 (UTC)

Let's poll it. 10:34, July 12, 2013 (UTC)

Sooo, are we going to Poll it or not? WU out -  July 15, 2013 7:41 (UTC)

The photo of him getting wounded was changed to the manga version, so there's little point in polling it. We should just change it to correspond with the manga thumbnail that comes before it. M4ND0N (talk) 05:11, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

That does not matter at all. SeaTerror (talk) 05:42, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

Might as well poll it then. M4ND0N (talk) 01:29, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

I made a test poll and will open it when the discussion allows it. Just saying "let's open a poll" isn't going to do anything.

Poll can be opened now, since enough people called for it during the course of 2 weeks. 16:31, July 20, 2013 (UTC)

anime image, the necklace isnt really significant in terms of his death-- 18:17, July 20, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, it is Canuck. He died with the necklace on, not off. Plus, it's missing tons of blood. 19:11, July 20, 2013 (UTC)

It's significant because the image before it in the article has his necklace intact so it looks even worse for the article having the manga image of him wounded and then the anime image of him dead than it did with both of them using the anime screencaps. [EDIT] Not to mention it looks better as an overall thumbnail with superior shading and more blood. M4ND0N (talk) 17:02, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

Edit War Part 2
I guess we're doing this again. Manga or 3D2Y? I'm indifferent, personally. I like the idea of a colored image with his necklace but on the flip side his mouth is too wide and it doesn't show his tattoo. Simple to remedy with cropping. The mouth doesn't really stand out as a major issue so I guess I'm leaning towards the 3D2Y version, albeit slightly. --Mandon (talk) 00:31, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

If we have to resort to cropping, in order to "fix" a faulty anime image, we should stick with the manga version. I have not watched the special yet but from the few screenshots I've seen here the character drawings are lacking in the quality department. Considering this is a special Toei should have put more effort into it... MasterDeva (talk) 01:51, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

They did and they didn't... the rest of the episode was pretty okay, animation-wise, but the remade Marineford scenes were indeed very sloppy. I have to agree somewhat on your logic with that being said. --Mandon (talk) 02:16, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

Like I said in the previous discussion of anime vs. manga, very few of the differences matter in terms of the intended use for the image. All that we need is for the image to clearly display Ace's death in a way that enhances the paragraph which describes his death. Do we really need the one letter the manga shows of a 4-letter tattoo to be seen in this image? Do we really need to have more blood shown even when he's bleeding from the same places?

Are we honestly concerned with the wideness of his mouth being "canon"?!

I see absolutely no reasons why we can't grow the fuck up and use a clear, visible, and most importantly color image here. 02:37, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with the anime version. The issue people had last time was the necklace which was not even a big deal in the first place. SeaTerror (talk) 02:44, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

Manga's best. Simple, well drawn, and very visible in a thumbnail. Less cartoony and more detailed as well. Mr. Whatever (talk) 02:47, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

It's not worth bringing up the original anime image because we're not using it. We've passed that threshold and the community decided on the manga image because the necklace evidently was a big deal to many people, including myself. Anyways that's not the point.. part of the arguments many people used in the last discussion was art. The 3D2Y image, necklace or no is a major downgrade in terms of art and detail for both the original anime photo and the manga photo. We have to decide if sloppy-ish art is worth having a colored image. --Mandon (talk) 05:30, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

Sloppy art is not worth a colored image, especially when the manga image looks great in the thumbnail. Color doesn't add anything here, but does detract. Mr. Whatever (talk) 16:10, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

Color never detracts.. quite the contrary, but only if the quality of the image is comparable to the manga.. but in this case it isn't so it's best to just leave it. --Mandon (talk) 06:18, September 5, 2014 (UTC)

Color does detract when all it brings is less detail (that's the case for almost every anime image). Mr. Whatever (talk) 01:24, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. I think that anime images are smoother and easier to see in thumbnails, when compared to b+w manga images with lines and kanji everywhere. But aside from generalities, I see no benefit to the details that this manga image has to the article.

But since this is clearly going nowhere, let's just start a poll. It's a standard image poll, 1 week, 2 options, etc. I don't think a test poll is really necessary in this case. 15:02, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

We should do 2 weeks on this one since we already did a poll before. SeaTerror (talk) 16:47, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Color has nothing to do with that Mr. W. Crappy animators bring less detail, not the addition of color. An image can have just as much detail as the manga and still be colored if the animators do their job properly, but that's usually never the case. Mandon (talk) 04:02, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

The addition of color in this case brings less detail. That's what I said, so why are you arguing with me?

And no... an image with color can not match the detail of the manga, ever, sorry. Manga is its own medium, and the addition of color ruins it. Also, how can you be for canon... if his tattoo isn't even drawn on his arm, while you still support the image without it. Mr. Whatever (talk) 04:13, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

I'm arguing with your stance that the addition of color is what causes the image to be less detailed, when it has nothing to do with the color itself. As for the tattoo problem, I support it because his shoulder can easily be cropped out of the image so it really doesn't matter. I am for canon.. which is essentially why I wanted to change the original anime image to manga in the first place, because in the canon storyline the necklace was there. Now we have a colored image that also has the necklace, so the sloppy-ish art doesn't really bother me, especially since it's a thumbnail image and any loss of details would be largely unnoticable. Only gripe would be the smile being too wide, but even that doesn't matter. --Mandon (talk) 20:47, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

You are arguing with a wall it seems, since none of that was ever said.

How does less detail make an image satisfactory? It still makes the article look much more unattractive, since if anybody actually looks at the image, they will see the ugliness that is this anime image. The manga also looks great in the thumbnail, and in full size it's a great image as well, so there's no reason for the addition of color. Mr. Whatever (talk) 21:01, September 7, 2014 (UTC

The logic of it is simple. The only reason we chose manga to begin with was because of the necklace and now we have a colored version with the necklace intact, and the loss of detail.. as you call it, is unnoticable in a thumbnail. Lastly, I can vote for whichever version I prefer, regardless of your own views on the matter. As can you, and did, so discussing this is pointless. Let's leave it up to the poll. --Mandon (talk) 02:20, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

This isn't about colour vs. black and white. In the special's version Ace's tattoo is missing which is important but more significantly Ace's expression final expression was changed from the peaceful one in the manga to having a "wet dream" in the special. Obviously I'm exaggerating slightly about the dream part but the point that scene bring is Ace's atonement and resolution of the inner struggle with his demons.

Ace had a lot eating away at him during the Marineford War. Self-loathing for putting his friends in mortal danger because he got captured, guilt from being born as Roger's son (who was hated by most) and causing him to constantly question his own existence in the world, and a desire to be loved and accepted instead of hated and rejected for being Roger's kin. Ace came in terms with all of the above issues and resolved them. That's the meaning of showing him dying with a peaceful look on his face. That peaceful aspect of his comes in direct contrast with the violence conveyed be the pool of blood he lies upon. It can even be said that the pool of blood visually symbolises the very issues Ace was conflicted about.

The special's version fails terribly at communicating all that with how that scene was handled. It is not merely an issue of colour. Yes, the black and white combination was used expertly in the manga but it is the director's fault who failed to grasp the essence of that one scene for the special. However big the transition difference between mediums is, there is no excusing the director in charge for handling poorly this adaptation. That's all there is to it. MasterDeva (talk) 02:34, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

I think it's a stretch to say they got rid of his peaceful expression. His mouth is wider, that's the only difference. His expression is exactly the same. --Mandon (talk) 05:44, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry but you're mistaken and you can easily check the validity of that by yourself. Compare the two versions side by side and cover the mouth part. You can easily make out that it is not the same expression. MasterDeva (talk) 07:32, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah his closed eyes are drawn differently, but I don't see how that takes away from his peaceful expression. --Mandon (talk) 17:35, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

There is no peaceful expression on Ace's face in the special. It resembles more satisfaction than anything else... MasterDeva (talk) 00:43, September 9, 2014 (UTC)

But that's exactly what Ace was feeling in the moment of his death. Satisfaction and contentness with the way he lived his life, which came with a feeling of peace and closure. There's really no difference between "satisfied" and "peaceful" given the context of Ace's emotions at the time. --Mandon (talk) 05:38, September 9, 2014 (UTC)

So, you do agree that the expression was changed. The feeling of closure you describe is the peace Ace attained in his final moments. The inner turmoil of his was finally resolved. Oda made that much clear when drawing that scene as the epilogue of Ace's talk. A few panels before he was talking about his struggle to answer the question of whether he should have been born or not. His last expression reveals that there was no longer any conflict inside of him. I also have to mention that peacefulness and satisfaction ain't the same or similar feelings at all and they shouldn't be treated as such under any context. MasterDeva (talk) 07:00, September 9, 2014 (UTC)

No, I never said I agreed with you. You mentioned that he looks more satisfied than relieved in the new photo and I was telling you that there's no difference between those two emotions. I never said I agreed that the expression itself was changed. Unless you count a wider smile and less curvacious eyes as "less peaceful". --Mandon (talk) 06:38, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

You've been talking about the "peaceful" expression in the special and then switched to satisfaction as soon as I mentioned it above. You never explicitly stated you agree with me but one can't help to wonder about the sudden change. Anyway, as I stated above there is no peaceful expression in the special but something closer to satisfaction. Peacefulness and satisfaction should not be confused as one another nor be treated as same or similar feelings. I'm not blaming you for not being able to see that nor I'm trying to change your opinion or antagonise you. I was just trying to state the obvious. I don't think there is anything more that needs to be added about this subject. MasterDeva (talk) 10:51, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

How do we deal with ties by the way? Do we extend it or wait for the moment someone breaks the tie? --Mandon (talk) 08:49, September 13, 2014 (UTC)

I like how Ace not having his tattoo at all isn't a big deal, but the necklace missing was an "Oh my goodness!" situation for you M4NDON. Mr. Whatever (talk) 08:58, September 13, 2014 (UTC)

Oh and cropping is not a viable solution as it shows less of his body. Mr. Whatever (talk) 09:01, September 13, 2014 (UTC)

It's a tie, so the poll is extended by three days. 16:24, September 13, 2014 (UTC)

I find it interesting how much more randomly belligerent you get when the chances of a photo you don't like being chosen increase, Mr. Whatever. I've already said my piece, and that's the photo I chose. You can be frustrated with my reasoning all you want but it isn't going to change. And yes, cropping is a viable solution. His shoulder adds nothing to the image, while the necklace was canologically a part of the scene, much like the tattoo, and there was no way to correct it without replacing the image. Nonetheless, we didn't vote in the manga image because of his tattoo and shoulder.. we did it for his necklace, and now a colored image is available with the necklace intact. --Mandon (talk) 21:39, September 13, 2014 (UTC)

Um... the whole issue behind the necklace missing being an issue was its status as non canonical. Considering later events, the anime created continuity issues when it was depicted whole again and on top of Ace's grave. The same is true for the tattoo. We know where its exact position is and we expect it to be visible when we are looking at Ace's arm. The artist responsible for drawing that scene though forgot to add it, creating an error. In other words it was a production mistake from Toei. Nothing more, nothing less. The reason I'm continuing this discussion however is because cropping was referenced some times as a solution... which is not. When we use cropping outside of infobox and portrait related images, we do so to remove empty backgrounds and enlarge somewhat the image for the thumbnail preview. Which is exactly that, not to fix faulty screenshots from the anime. MasterDeva (talk) 23:45, September 13, 2014 (UTC)