Forum:Gifs Discussion, Re-opened

Where .gifs are concerned, there seems to be this prevailing belief that they are simply not allowed, because they are rarely seen here any more. This is despite there being set rules which specifically illustrate where and when the application of .gifs are allowed. Rules, some users here would rather bury, and ignore. I understand the fear of these bandwidth draining images being spammed, however that shouldn't result in an outright shunning of a valuable, and effective means of presentation.

That's why I'd like to re-open this discussion, to a certain degree. I myself recently learnt how to make quality .gif images, and have already updated several images as necessary. I also know of a couple other users (such as Croc), who also tried this new method and got a grasp at how to make them.

The point I'd like to present, is that I feel one of the problems with using .gifs is that we've (presumably) had to rely on alternative sources for our animated images. This would mean risking subtitles, watermarks and general low quality. What I'm trying to present is, with users who know how to make these images and have quality footage on file waiting to be used, why not make a collaborative effort in providing proper animations for articles that both deserve and need them?

If simple talk pages are insufficient, a page could even be made where requests for specific files could be made for the users who possess the skill required, to come and see to. This would allow for more efficient images to be made. I envision it as being something like;

''Hi! We need a short .gif of Blamenco pulling out his weapon from his chin. The image only needs to be 190px wide, as that's what we'll set the image as.''



Or something along those lines, this would maximise the effectiveness of the .gifs and not result in unnecessary file sizes. Knowing you guys though it'll probably be requested in a much less formal manner~. Basically that could work whenever a .gif is absolutely necessary, and any resizing wouldn't be an issue as the .gif creator should still have the footage required to make a new version of the file.

Well, that's my proposition and I'd be happy to be the 'go-between' guy for this process if it is accepted. It'll sure as hell be a lot easier to acquire proper .gifs then just searching Photobucket or the forums. 19:08, June 3, 2012 (UTC)

Gifs suck hairy donkey balls, tijuana style. The less we have of them the better.

They're really only needed on Devil Fruit pages. The ones we have only suck because the rules hugely limited them. SeaTerror 01:13, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

^ That's exactly right, Devil Fruit/Powers only, whenever a still image cannot show what's being illustrated. Like the above .gif, or Sanji's Blue Walk technique. 01:27, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

Magellan's powers is a big one too. SeaTerror 01:49, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but I think we should have an additional rule: .gifs are not allowed to have fan-subtitles within them, as both File:Blue Walk 525.gif and File:Shambles.wmv.GIF do. 03:43, June 5, 2012 (UTC)

That was already the rule from the original forum. I see absolutely nothing wrong with subtitles anyway. SeaTerror 03:45, June 5, 2012 (UTC)

I don't mind either way, but fan subbers make it difficult to remove those specific subtitles as they are put directly onto the video, and aren't a separate subtitles file like the rest of dialogue. And as they are the source of high quality footage... So unless we crop them out (reducing visibility significantly) or search for RAWs (which are difficult enough to find recent episode, let alone older episodes), then technique names might need some leniency towards, unlike regular dialogue which can be removed without any complications. 05:00, June 5, 2012 (UTC)

Yonkou and Yibis use MKV so those are the only subbers you could get subless GIFs from. Like you said, it would be impossible for older ones. SeaTerror 06:46, June 5, 2012 (UTC)

If the gif has good quality and no subs, then its perfect. I agree on having them.

I'm ok to remove some restrictions to gifs, but I'm afraid that this will lead only to a mass upload of pointless gifs... I mean "Sanji's blue walk" technique? It's something that probably will never use ever again... who cares if there we haven't a gif of it. After said that, I'd like to know how to create/edit gifs, which software are you using?

Well, the rules already in place would allow for mass uploads. So really what's stopping it from being spammed is so many people simply do not know how to make them. I only made one of Sanji's Blue Walk because we had a manga image instead, so if that's the technique that's being illustrated why not put the gif there? As for the program I use, it's just through Photoshop which allows me to create gifs of any size up to the original video proportions, and edit them freely (such as cropping the black letterboxing).

I'm just suggesting that rather then rely on .gifs found on Photobucket or Google Images, we simply make use of the resources at our disposal, in an effective manner by making our own proper .gifs that show exactly what's needed, nothing more, and by determining the size of the .gif we will be optimising the file size as well. 07:12, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

‎‎ A gif should be added if really necessary in my opinion, I know it's cool, but a gif is very heavy, so too many gifs will just slow down the page, this is also a thing to take in consideration. And the current rules doesn't allow mass upload, there are some restrictions. I'm sorry to say this, but I think the blue walk gif and the Utase Ami one are really not necessary... can you focus on more complex techniques? I mean, blue walk it's just Sanji swimming fast... if you really want to show a more complete image add the manga image.

"A gif should be added if really necessary" - I agree with this. But what is 'necessary' or not is something I feel we're going to disagree strongly on. By mass uploads, I meant over the wiki entirely, not just single articles which I am well aware of the restriction. It's common practice to replace manga images with the animation counterparts, which is why I am against retaining the manga images when the anime has shown the technique clearly, but on rare occasions requires an animated demonstration. Whether the technique is recurring or complex doesn't matter, as a wiki it's our responsibility to provide clear understanding of the topic and if that requires the occasional .gif then so be it.

And as you brought up here about the subs, that is a restriction that should be removed as like I stated in that talk, high quality footage is difficult to come by, and even more difficult to find one that hasn't embedded the technique name (not dialogue, just the name) into the video.

I'll reiterate, I am not suggesting we let loose with the gifs and clog up the articles. I am just suggesting that we take advantage of the fact we have people who can custom make these gifs (file size, image size and length or what is presented) and do so when absolutely necessary. Like in the case of this gif for Luffy's Gomu Gomu no Storm, the original was taken up mostly by Luffy's initial punch going through the sand - unnecessary. So I instead cut the footage into a way that showed more of the technique itself.

If a still image can show the technique, great! We'll use that. If it has been animated in a way that won't allow this, then don't be so stubborn about using a gif, and take advantage of the resources available to make an effective gif that isn't larger then it has to be, doesn't show more then it has to, and is of a decent quality. 12:06, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

I have all episode from 382+ with soft subs if that's can be helpful. I understand your point and at least you know what you are talking about and not just upload random thing, as you said the issue was born on "A gif should be added if really necessary". I think that we should focus on main techniques anyway, I just questioned the purpose of uploading a gif for a minor technique... there are tons of technique that don't even have an image, moreover a gif.

Well, I've already gone through Luffy, Zoro and Sanji's pages, updating them with images (sparingly because an image for every technique would just be the same as putting heaps of gifs in). So that's why I know many techniques are presentable with still images. It's just that a couple aren't animated in a way that allows this, (I'll completely ignore the anime-only section as they'd all require gifs, no single frames). And if we're going to present these minor techniques (with manga or anime images) I feel they should still get the same treatment of any other technique, and in the case of techniques such as Blue Walk, Trawl Net or even Robin's cloning ability (which caught my attention about the whole anti-gif attitude) they simply need a gif to receive the same treatment.

Which is exactly why I'm offering to help with these, and not just let editors rely on Photobucket and Google in these rare cases, where they have no control of what the gifs show, and can only take what they get. 12:33, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't against you uploading/editing gifs, please do it, I was questioning the purpose of some gifs... just like the history page has some pictures of important moments, the techniques pages should have some illustrations for important ones, not necessary all of them, that is my opinion.

In my opinion a GIF should only be used when a still is not enough to illustrate what really needs to be illustrated, that means GIFs should be used for techniques only. There is no need for them in the history section.

Rather than discussing whether GIFs are good or bad we should list which techniques are actually worth illustrating them with a GIF and then ask Kuro to make one for them.

19:08, June 26, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the support Neo, I think that'd work best when it comes to using gifs. :) 15:09, July 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Too bad Wikia doesn't host video files itself, does it? AFAIR, the embedded plugin uses Videos from other portal sites as YouTube. D:
 * I just created a video version from File:Bubbly Coral 539 V2.gif as Ogg Theora with 1,600 kB/s - 240 Pixels width, TrueColor, 23.976fps and 605kB (ogg) vs. 240 Pixels width, 256 colors, unknown framerate and 1.21 MB (initial gif). -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 18:31, July 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, Wikia does support Ogg Theora files - but the Image Guidelines don't allow them here. Just saw it when I was about to test it. -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 18:42, July 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hm. It actually works pretty fine, even as thumbnail within an article. -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 18:44, July 20, 2012 (UTC) Removing link, as I took the video off. -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 09:09, July 31, 2012 (UTC)

Not voting unless the vote is also about rule changes. SeaTerror (talk) 06:28, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

one or two gifs per page I have no objection to. We did once try to have lots of gifs on Ace's DF page when the wikia was first st up to see whatit was like; the entire page looked awfully busy, it was distracting to work with and cluttered the page. Furthermore, its not good for low-bandwidths and takes up more wikia resources. Gifs should only be used as demostration of complex stuff that can't always be summed up in one image and even then 4 is ideal as a maximum, you should never go above 8 per page under any circumstances.

Also video files are even worst; you guys are also ignoring the copyright aspect of this as well. We can get away with single images because their "safe" and comply within the rules of copyright, but in regards to animation that is copyrighted, hosting is as bad as torrenting them, even if the file is a single scene. Therefore, the copyright holders can actually, if they wanted to, force the wikia to remove animations. thats why Gif's are the most we can get away with.

We had a small discussion, and I know other wikia based on animations might include video files or lots of gifs, but their also not taking into account the issue with this. Out of all the wikia that I've worked on, the only times animations have been considered "safe" was when;
 * they were demostrations like a scienece theory related item someone at a university linked to that they conducted as "proof". :-/
 * Where showing a demostration of how to do something (example; cooking recipe)
 * Gameplay from a a video game showing someone playing the game (but endings and cut scenes are sometimes a dodgey subject depending)
 * PVs and music videos made and uploaded by themelves (and not rehosted, which is the bane of the Vocaloid fandom since the copyright owner will often get the video pulled, and some license holders like Sony pull works without warning).

I'd rather have .gifs then videos. One-Winged Hawk (talk) 06:48, August 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Consider also that gifs can sometimes be harder to regulate then normal images because they have more then one image to consider. And that also the wikia should only use as many images as needed for its purposes, that images are also not meant for decoration. They enhance pages where needed; but their not needed if the text alone is enough to not need it. Gifs also obey this rule.


 * The best example of too many images has always been the Harryu Potter wikia, which got a reputation pretty early on for its noted mount of images to the point where I once saw a joke that a person didn't need to see the films as "their on the Harry Potter Wikia", if you get what they were implying. One-Winged Hawk (talk) 06:54, August 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Also, consider that the more images you have (and gifs. and videos are made of several images), the more explainations and insurances you need to give to explain why you have so many copyrighted images.


 * I think I've now remembered all the issues on this topic that I can remember, we can have a many images as needed for the wikia; so long as we're not basically reuploading entire works, some countries prevent the copying of more then 10%-15% of a copyright comic/book and others only for edutcatinal purposes, both cover when when you do it without the copyright holders premission). Therefore because of the law, sometimes there isn't a option to really go into detail on this. The wikia staff expect all the wikias to be run effectively by their communties and we're all suppose to avoid situations that put a wikia in bad positions, as mentioned, it doesn't always work out. I have always hoped this wikia never became this bad...


 * Beyond this concern, I really don't care how many images, gifs or videos we can use, so long as we can make it "work" for the wikia. I will make one note I forgot to mention on videos; we do have One Piece games... I'm really shocked that thats the only "safe" place for videos and there are none there at all, thats bizzare, but mind you... I don't think anyone ever thought about this before... :-/ One-Winged Hawk (talk) 07:06, August 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * I understand that, and I feel most others do as well. I think you have misunderstood though, this isn't about overloading on images, or putting one up for every single occurrence. This is just to identify which images we currently have which illustrate techniques, that fail to properly or wholly show the technique/ability. While the occasional addition will probably be brought up, I'll be most likely just replacing pre-existing illustrations.


 * And if you were honestly concerned about legal implications, just take one look at the Fairy Tail or Bleach wikis, who have a gif for just about every single technique. Considering our changes will be significantly less, I think we're fine, thank you. 07:15, August 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Back to the Harry Potter joke "I don't need to see the movie because its on the wikia". I often get the idea that if I write a lot of text, no one reads it all, thanks for proving me right when I didn't want to be.


 * Take note, I'm all for making life easier for the /gif makers, I just don't think this particular idea you guys are discussing is benefical to this wikia. Its not like I object, I'm not a regluar either, but I've always given my experience and advice on this sort of thing to try and help this comunity keep away from the issues that haunt others. I have no interest in dictating this wikia on what it wants.


 * Also, there are wikia who have been shut down for various reasons and issues, so we're not outside the law even as a fan community. We still have to obey them. I'm not a bleach fan, and honestly, if I went onto that wikia and said something, since I'm a "stranger" I'd be bitched and whined at for it. I'm NOT a trouble maker or a troll; therefore I know my limits of influence and when not to give out advice. I would also never be a part of a wikia that didn't take anything like this into account since I don't want links to that sort of thing myself. I come to this wikia and lurk still, because its a "clean" wikia. ^_- One-Winged Hawk (talk) 07:26, August 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * 1) I did read your entire message, I just ignored the non-essential bits in my reply.


 * 2) Your legal concerns have been noted, and as someone whose been active on wikia for many years now I too have experience enough to know, one or two additional gifs will not be detrimental. Ten or twenty would even be fine (but we're not going to do that).


 * 3) I'm not even sure what you're advising really. The only clear message you've made is, "This could implicate us legally." Which would be true, if we really were uploading 10-15% of the One Piece anime. And considering the run time for the first 550 episodes is longer then a week, I think we're safe. 08:01, August 2, 2012 (UTC)

How many damn times do I have to say this? We are fine legally as long as we use the Fair Use template. The companies cannot do anything because Wikia servers are in America therefore Fair Use trumps any complaints. The major issue of these GIFs is how damn ugly they are because of the stupid rules. The pixel limit killed every single GIF we had on this site. You might as well delete every single GIF than just allow really shitty ones. SeaTerror (talk) 07:32, August 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * You have a backwards idea of what the "fair use" template are for; its not a "catch-all excuse" for having an image, thier a explaination and justification as to WHY we've uploaded it. An image with "fair use" can still breakcopyright and even that tyrant wiki "wikipedia" would delete a images with a "fair use" image on it if the image still broke copyright law. And its not afriad too either...


 * Rules, as ugly as they are, protect a wikia and a community and everyone who treads on them. I know you have a rep for having no concern for this kind of things Sea, but I'm not always right at times I'm not wrong on this particular matter concerning "fair use" templates. since I've been a wiki-editor since 2004 and started my life as a wikipedian, I had to "deal" with all sorts of issues surrounding "fair use" templates and things like this. :-/ One-Winged Hawk (talk) 07:38, August 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Also... Why mot just vote on making the .gifs bigger..? Or allow more frames..? If thats a concern, then do it. Why open one can of worms the wikia didn't need to when you can use a can thats already open? ^_- One-Winged Hawk (talk) 07:44, August 2, 2012 (UTC)

Or you have crappy rules like the pixel limit that don't protect anything and ruin GIFS. You're most definitely wrong about this. Fair Use protects all of these images because there is no way to show them otherwise. SeaTerror (talk) 07:49, August 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * I had no say on the .gifs; that wasn't my idea, the guys who wanted gif made the original vote and everyone voted what they wanted for them. You can't blame me for this one, the whole community was to blame, or at least those that voted at the time of the original vote. And seriously; I just pointed out that there is a "safe" reason and you guys might want to discuss that. Also, you are NOT right about the fair use template... ^_- One-Winged Hawk (talk) 07:54, August 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Also just a note; I'm NOT a regulaur, therevfore I have no committment to this wikia. This vote is already illegal thanks to Seas "triple yes vote" on that second vote, which should have been held FIRST before the first vote went ahead. There is no finer plans being laid out and this whole "revision" fo the rules leaves the rules too weak to stand their grounds, opening the wikia to abuse... In other words, you gusy have to make this rule fit the wikia staffs guidelines this time so the wikia obeys what they want, I'm not going to do it. All I will say, if you guys go ahead, the wikia won't be a "clean" wikia anymore... If you want to go to the tarnished place a lot of other wikia end up, thats fine with me as its no concern to me at all. I'll not be around to see it fall... :-/ One-Winged Hawk (talk) 08:05, August 2, 2012 (UTC)

This forum was also originally supposed to be about the old rules. There is no "safe" reason. You just think that because we have images the wikia will get shut down. They will NEVER shut down the wikia. If the wikia was going to get shut down then it would have happened years ago. I also don't see how you missed that the poll was a sarcastic joke. It was supposed to either be voted on as is or removed. Uploading more GIFs won't ruin the wikia. This wikia is fine how it is with the exception of a few things. Imagewise the wikia is near perfect. I also am most definitely right about Fair Use. You're British and I'm American. I think we can all figure out who would know more about United States copyright law. SeaTerror (talk) 08:14, August 2, 2012 (UTC)

Angel you do realise that this wiki is already full of illegal stuff right? Their for having said that it's not a clean wiki and I doubt their are many out there. 08:22, August 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually, so far we've not broken any rules except the ones that prevent spoilers coming out before release date (we get the wednesday when the chapters out on Mnmday). Also, like with "fair use" or "other wikias do it", thats NOT an excuse to push this through or anything like this, you do realise that right? In fact, you shouldn't even be pushing something through you KNOW is illegal and this wikia can be reported for it. I don't think the wikia staff would bother sorting the issue, since they don't always have time to regulatte the wikias or want the hassle, plus since their not wikipedia their not a dictatorship... Thank goodness. But still, yeah, that DOESN'T change a thing about the stuff I'm bringng up here.


 * Heck, if you want a comparison go to the Vocaloid wikia, now theres a wikia that has to be tight on copyright since we've got a lot worst then the One Piece wikia to deal with. Be thankful all you've got to worry about is this. ^_- One-Winged Hawk (talk) 09:07, August 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Also, to everyone else thinking about stepping into the copyright debate, do note, since I am on the Vocaloid wikia anddeal with thier fandom, you have to realise I actually deal w3ith copyright issues pretty myuch every day... Since when you link to a video theres about 4x the amount of copyrights you often need to consider and just about anyone could be the license holder of that 1 Vocaloid related song or PV you just linked to. Top it off with illegal versions of the software, which makes any song made with that version instantly illega, we coudl link to someone for months then findout they have an illegal version making all our links worthless.


 * Yeah... Go ahead, I can discuss the thrills and joys of copyright all day these days.... Though honestly, I don't wantto since witht he Vocaloid fandom its also involes keeping two fandoms happy; the western fandom which usually don't have a clue on what its doing, and the Japanese fandom, which knows everything its the western fandom and what its doing wrong. Yeah... As I said... Be thankful the copyright for One Piece is simplier. the number of times I've been involved in sorting out Japanese/westerner fueds is silly since I've been with that fandom. =_=' One-Winged Hawk (talk) 09:16, August 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Here, have a taste of the joys I've dealt with involving copyright in the Vocaloid fandom(link not work safe since its encyclopedia dramtica). One-Winged Hawk (talk) 09:23, August 2, 2012 (UTC)

We are not linking entire videos. We are using gifs that contain only a dozen frames. We are not going to mass upload, we will only be adding a couple gifs being needed right now. Your concerns have been expressed, but you are late to the party.

Continuing this discussion will go nowhere as you clearly are not going to budge, and neither will we. The issue will now be settled in the poll. 09:33, August 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Note; I was acctually answering several people at once in my first post, and then started tackling individuals as they responded to me. (Sorry if it was confusing. O.O I'm REALLY out of sync with this wikia and its workings). Someone mentioned something on videos, so I underlined everything around them that I knew though, whats easy to get around, whats not, then Sea and I went into a little conversation on "fair use" and I think thats where I got lost in spiraling thoughts, since I haven't had any interactions with the One Piece fandom in ages and have a lot to talk about. The One Piece fandgirl in my kicked out a little there and wanted to engage in a conversation with everyone. ^_^' One-Winged Hawk (talk) 09:40, August 2, 2012 (UTC)

Voting
'''Note: For those who don't want to actually read through the discussion above and make an informed decision, the only gifs that will be made are those that the anime or manga fails to demonstrate clearly, and those that will not result in the article becoming cluttered. They are the ONLY ones being made as a result of this forum. Not one gif for every technique like some people seem to have interpreted this as.'''

Seeing as the general discussion has gone on for awhile, and people have had their say, I believe it's time to begin a poll.

This poll will remain open until 12:00pm (UTC) on August 14th, 2012. To vote you must have been here for at least three months, and have at least three-hundred edits.

Should we make a list of techniques or abilities that require a gif to illustrate for Kuro (or any other user capable of making gifs) to make?

Yes
 * 1)  06:29, August 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2) Galaxy9000 (talk) 06:43, August 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * 3)   07:04, August 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * 4)  07:35, August 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * 5)  03:31, August 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * 6)  14:55, August 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * 7) Sanji the Cook (talk) 06:36, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

No
 * 1)  06:09, August 2, 2012 (UTC) Gifs make pages lags and they are usually terrible, no offense to Kuro, plus I dislike gifs being use for formal use in general.
 * 2) One-Winged Hawk (talk) 06:57, August 2, 2012 (UTC) I'm not against .gifs as they are good for the wikia when applied correctly. But I've tried and tested this before (see my comments) and it just doesn't work out. Plus you have other issues that actually need to be considered that often prevent this going ahead as easily as you hope or think it will (see my comments, again). One-Winged Hawk (talk) 06:57, August 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * 3) -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 14:50, August 2, 2012 (UTC) Loading a wiki page that contains two gifs is already taking too long. If you allow gifs, there's no point in forbidding short ogg Videos without sound that are smaller, have a better quality and load, when requested by the user.
 * 4)  09:43, August 4, 2012 (UTC) i think anime and manga images should be used where possible.

Post-Vote Discussion
Now that it's been concluded that a list of techniques should be made, I suggested using this forum as a location to add any techniques people come across that may need a gif. 13:05, August 14, 2012 (UTC)

List of Techniques
Rules to Remember
 * Current gif rules still apply, no subtitles or signatures are to be present in the gifs and no more then three on a page.
 * Gifs will only be made in the situation when neither the anime nor manga are able to fully illustrate the technique or power, or an animated image is beneficial and can supplement the written description.

Gifs to be Made
 * 1) Jinbe's first use of Fishman Karate, as shown in Episode 443. The twisting of the guard's bodies is not seen in the current picture. 14:49, August 14, 2012 (UTC)