Talk:Logia

I don't know what you guys are thinking not talking about this at all but you're all odd. People need to get something straight here. This is the only fruit with out essays written about it. And yet it's the most powerful and by far the coolest class of devils fruit. And this is the first

Here I'll start it off if you guys are that lazy:

- Kizaru is the fastest - What would happen if Kizaru and Blackbeard had it out? - What would happen if Mr 0/Crocodile was in a fight with Enel? - Is there a water fruit?

See it isn't that hard. Just watch some past eps and start there.

~Daniel Sep. 8th.


 * I don't see what you're talking about. The page has just as much info as the other fruit types.


 * As for your sentence suggestions, most are questions whose answers can only give speculations. The Kizaru thing is true to some point since light is extremely fast but is it really necessary?Mugiwara Franky 08:04, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

I just meant the discussion page should be filled with more than nothing like it has been. This is a great aspect of the series and it's just a shame to see that it doesn't have people talking about it like they should be. I just think that people should be fully using the discussion pages other than for just change complaints and things of those nature that's all. Plus what's the harm in openly discussing speculation? I see no harm in that. Like I said this is a discussino page for a reason right?

~Daniel Sep 8. 12:24


 * The talk pages of the articles are generally meant to be used to discuss the various aspects of a page amongst the various contributors. Things like verifying the source of info, character name spelling, views on what is the correct info among editors, and other stuff like that are what are generally supposed to be in the talk page. It's a place where editors can talk to one another and try to understand each other so there won't be edit wars and the page can be properly maintained.


 * The stuff you wish to talk about unfortunately doesn't belong here. They kinda belong in a forum where stuff like that can be discussed. If it was regularly discussed in the article talk pages, then more important issues like spelling, confirmation, and overall article status would be overlooked. If you really wish to have a place to talk about such stuff, try Arlong Park Forums.Mugiwara Franky 16:45, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

Jinbei and Whitebeard overcoming the Logia weakness?
It states that Rayleigh, Hancock, Whitebeard, Jinbei, and Marco were all capable of overcoming the Logia weakness in order to harm them. Now, Rayleigh and Hancock are obvious through the use of Haki, but Marco didn't really harm Kizaru with his Phoenix powers, did he? I dunno, I just think that should be amended. As for Whitebeard and Jinbei, I don't remember them ever actually harming Logia types. Is it possible for there to be some kind of source included to prove these claims? Otherwise, you know, it's obvious that they should be removed. Subrosian 04:36, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me, let me correct that. It says that Marco, Whitebeard, and Jinbei were able to nullify their Logia powers. Marco's I understand, so strike that from the record. But, Whitebeard and Jinbei, I still don't recall them nullifying anyone's Logia powers. Subrosian 04:38, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

What?! He beat the hell out of Ace post eating his fruit in that flashback.

~Daniel 12.18

Yeah, and Whitebeard beat thecrap out of Akainu. he couldn't have hit him without haki. And with Kizaru, if he was intangible when Marco kicked him, he wouldn't have been sent flying. He is just durable.

~Pacifista15 10.48

Well Whitebeard has his shock wave that he uses and it seems like it doesn't matter what your made of if something that big and powerful hits you, your going to move. I suppose.

~that guy

as for Marco attacking Akainu, I think its pretty safe to say that logia that have haki themselves are able to resist haki attacks to a point. or at least reduce the lethality of the damage.173.238.152.107 08:15, February 2, 2011 (UTC)

Water Logia Fruit
is there a water devil fruit? then will the person eating the devil fruit able to swim and weaken other devil fruit user 202.152.82.169 00:04, December 22, 2009 (UTC)hakim


 * There are no water fruit and no seastone fruit. These fruits are impossible becuase liqud water is the weakness of all DF users. El Chupacabra 15:12, December 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * There is a non-canon anime Logia fruit called the Toro Toro no Mi. It however turns the user into a liquid that's not specifically water.Mugiwara Franky 16:19, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

Haki being the true damage effect?
I don't know why we're already saying that haki is the main source of doing damage to them when it's never ever ever been said how Rayliegh pulled that off against Kizaru. Or how Boa hurt Smoker. And it's really pissing me the fuck off that people think it is Haki that's allowing for that too happen.

~Daniel 12.27.09


 * Dear Dan... Can't you sign your posts properly ~ please.


 * Anyway I'm not going to get started on the haki argument, we've zero from Oda on it in SBS as far as I can tell. One-Winged Hawk 09:28, December 28, 2009 (UTC)


 * The thing is that it appears to be only reasonable explanation why certain people are capable of doing things. For Rayleigh, Haki seems to be the only reason for two things 1) Rayleigh is a known Haki user and 2) Kizaru is a guy who can turn into light, a substance which can't be easily countered.


 * For Hancock, it's actually been stated in the very chapter that it was Haki when she hit Smoker.Mugiwara Franky 10:30, December 28, 2009 (UTC)

Akainu's devil fruit
I have read in many spanish fansites, Akainu's fruit as the "Yogan Yogan no mi".


 * Okay, but until we get confirmation from a reliable source (i.e. Oda), there's no way to tell if this is actually true, no matter how many fansites you've heard it on. 2xN 14:08, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

repeat inormation
Other information now repeats whats already written since someone updated "Strengths" and "weaknesses" without updating "Other...". Can someone correct this, I'm limited on what I can do until tomorrow and I have a task to fulfill tomorrow. 94.168.119.106 20:22, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

Dodge attacks by "becoming their element"?
This is kind of getting on my nerves, you're saying that they have to become their element to dodge bullets/sword slashes etc?

Well please explain this, why do the "hole" which they dodge with create the second the bullets hit their body? It's clear that they don't have to do anything, and no one can even react in their sleep, since they are unconscious.

The only reasonable explanation I could have to this is that they have 3 different levels of the "transform"

1. Not being their element. - NO HAKI REQUIRED

2. Being in human form but they cant touch anything and can't be touched, since they are their element. - HAKI REQUIRED

2.5. "How do they stand on the ground?" They choose to only make some parts of their body invulnerable.

3. Being "transformed", clearly showing their element, and making their element visible. - DOES HAKI WORK?

Please, can someone explain this?

85.225.61.9 03:44, July 14, 2011 (UTC)Sewil

Logia abilities can be trained to be used reflexively so that the body can react to attacks unconsciously, how they are trained is unknown. 03:49, July 14, 2011 (UTC)

Controlling the element not generated from the body
I would appreciate a reference concerning this paragraph:

"A minor weakness is that Logia users can only control their elements when generated from themselves, and not if it is in another state of matter, meaning that they cannot control their respective elements if it was not generated from their bodies. However, this could be bypassed by simply mixing their own element with a pre-existing amount of the particular element in order to augment the strength of the attack (as Crocodile did with his sandstorms). Yet, this only works if there already is a substantial elemental source, such as a desert or an expanse of water."

Could anyone provide one? Else I will remove it from the article.

Thanks! 14:27, July 15, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it has ever been seen a logia user using anything else but the element that is generated from their body, so I think that is correct.

Sewil 16:54, July 16, 2011 (UTC)

I do have to agree. I'm thinking about Crocodile fighting Luffy in the tomb. There was no sand and he didn't have time to break down any rock, so he had to rely on what his own body could produce. 16:59, July 16, 2011 (UTC)

@ Sewil

Thing is, only because we didn't see it doesn't mean they can't.

Example: Up until recently only humans were seen using devil fruits, but we didn't state that devil fruits only work on humans.

I don't have anything against the theory itself, but articles are holy ground and without a proper reference, this paragraph is material for blogs and forums. The fact that there isn't a single reference kinda proofs that it is fanon. 17:20, July 16, 2011 (UTC)

It was never stated, but it was demonstrated. The first time was with Crocodile, the second time was with Ace fighting Teach. He set something on fire and then drew the flames back to his body. Also if this wasn't true, then Kizaru would be the most overpowered character in the series. Light is everywhere, yet he didn't manipulate it at Sabaody and Marineford. 17:29, July 16, 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand the Crocodile example, yes he used his own sand in the tomb, because there was none. How does this prove that he can't control sand in general? There was no sand for him to control and so he couldn't prove it.

And Ace, flames drawing back to his body? If that was anime only it isn't canon anyway. And for Kizaru, that is really pure speculation. We don't know how his powers exactly work, maybe he did gather the sunlight around him to enhance his attacks. Thats the problem really, this discussion here sounds like its from a blog or a forum. References is what its all about, especially when it concerns fundamental workings of OP. 17:34, July 16, 2011 (UTC)

Ace retracting his flames is canon. As for Kizaru's light, it was seen coming out from his finger, not being collected at the tip, whenever he was about to do a laser attack. 17:41, July 16, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, lets say Ace retracting his flames is canon, even if I doubt it. It still doesn't prove that he can not control flames that didn't came out of his body, since it was all his.

What we need is an example of a logia-user that could not make use of the element outside of his body. How would you formulate such a reference? 17:52, July 16, 2011 (UTC)

@DancePowderer

I just finished Episode 325, seeing the flames he retracted was created from his own body, with the skill "Fire Fist", so that is fire produced from his own Devil Fruit.

And to manipulate the element outside ones body would be too much overpower, so I don't think Oda would accept that, btw how do you do that template thingy? Sewil 18:15, July 16, 2011 (UTC)

I found one. Aokiji's Ice Ball. It's a ranged attack, but if you follow the vapor trail, it leads back to his body. He couldn't just freeze the air x feet away. <http://www.mangareader.net/103-41586-6/one-piece/chapter-567.html/p 18:20, July 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, air is not freezable anyway. Here Aokiji just sends his own ice towards Whitebeard. That does not prove he can't control ice he didn't made. The paragraph is totally speculative, in my opinion. And even more serious, it's stated with much detail, as if it was a well-known thing...

That's partly why we're hesitant to get rid of it. It's written too well to be by some random. Whoever wrote it knew what he/she was talking about. So, giving them the benefit of the doubt, we thought it was worth looking into. Also, I didn't mean he was freezing the air, I meant he was freezing the moisture in the air. 01:47, July 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * Aokiji can freeze the sea, the sea is not produced by Aokiji, myth busted?
 * 03:48, July 17, 2011 (UTC)

Not even close. The question here is a matter of indirect contact. Kuzan was touching the water when he froze it. 03:51, July 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * Wasn't the question whether a Logia user can or cannot "control their elements when generated from themselves"? Damn, that cracks my last post... so hmm... got to think this one over.
 * 03:56, July 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * Crocodile can sense thing moving through normal sand, I don't know if that counts as controlling it. Bastian964 16:19, July 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * It doesn't 17:06, July 17, 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand, the problem is to prove that a logia user can't freely control his element naturally present in the environment or that you think he can control it, so that it's a wrong statement? (maybe there isn't a big difference) I recognize that it is a complicate matter, but if logia users can do that, then: About proving that, it's hard but I would be more surprised if we say that they can control their elements.
 * Crocodile can manipulate every grain of sands at will
 * Ace can manipulate every flames near him
 * idem for Aokiji, Enel, Akainu... and others (let's leave aside Kizaru and Teach)
 * we didn't see a logia user manipulating his natural element unless mixed his own element with it (right?), if they could do that why don't do it? It would be an huge advantage...
 * When Crocodile produced the sandstorms (by giving birth to little sandstorm which was amplified by the wind), didn't he say that he couldn't stop them anymore when they reached a big size?

The whole "mixing his own element" is speculation as well, there is no way to tell how it was exactly done. We only know that Crocodile controlled not only his sand when he faced Luffy in the desert. And about the sandstorm, this doesn't prove anything as well. He could simply used so much power that he lost control over it, not because it wasn't his own sand. '''Either way we look at, we speculate on the why and how. '''

Remember, it is not about the theory itself - only about how we handle things on the wiki. I understand that people got used to this theory because apparently no one ever questioned it, but is this really a reason to keep it? Keeping a possible lie because well, it was always there? 17:40, July 17, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, could you provide the chapter where Crocodile felt movement in the sand Bastian? 17:43, July 17, 2011 (UTC)

The thing with it, like you said earlier, Jinbe, is that it was not only on here for a long time, but that it is written too confidently for someone to have just made up and added. If you think about it, Leviathan is right, it would make sense for them to be unable to control the element outside their body. And with the sandstorm, Crocodile created the storm so that the cyclone was huge after only a few feet, and said it was out of his control. It doesn't seem right that someone could do that so easily and be so nonchalant about it unless it was a matter power beyond his body, not just his ability to control it, if that makes sense. He wouldn't shrug it off like that. 17:51, July 17, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, to clear things up, here I see Crocodile forming a sandstorm in his own hand and setting it off, not mixing his own sand into the desert to form it. After all, his "Sables: Pesado" is a version of "Sables", and he did NOT use sand outside of himself to form it. So we can remove the part about mixing one's own element with naturally made element to increase the control range. Also, becoming an element is what Logia does, and controlling the element inside their body is just a byproduct. Controlling an element means to control the said element outside their body, meaning Crocodile has to control natural sand in a desert to be classified as such. 18:03, July 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * Just to add, he claimed that the Sandstorm will go out of control, because it is no longer part of his body, but has became part of the naturally made sand after leaving his body. Also, Crocodile did use "Sables" while attacking a Demon Guard, sending Marines flying off a battleship during escape from Impel Down, sending Whitebeard Pirates flying to get to Whitebeard, and saving Luffy and Jinbe; has anyone seen him mixing his own sand with "natural sand" that time to get that sandstorm? I haven't, he just made it out of his own sand. 18:07, July 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah that's true, but we still need preferences that they CAN'T use the element not generated from their own body.
 * 18:11, July 17, 2011 (UTC)

Wait Yatano, you (and probably us) are misunderstanding the "mixing his element" thing. Crocodile and logi users can produce their element (right?) so why are you concerned if he didn't mix is element in Impel Down? It's just a normal attack, I don't see why he should have mixed it in first place. Returning to the sandstorm example, it doesn't prove Crocodile has (freely) control over the natural sand at all, rather the opposite: it's as you said he "lauch" his own sandstorm in the desert, then by the natural environment it got amplified by the wind, but at that point it was outside of his control, the prove is he said that it will hit Yuba because the wind was blowing to south not because he send it in that direction. Saying that Crocodile has control over the sand means he should do something like Shiki does.


 * Ah sorry, Yatano, I misread you post. You said the same thing as me.

Right, so overall, the mixing thing is out. Now let me ask you this: after Kuzan froze an entire ocean, has anyone seen him control that frozen sea? Nope, so you see, Logia is just Elemental Mimicry (a body composed of that element), not Elemental Manipulation (controlling that element, regardless of the origin). Now, we should put that down, UNTIL we see some Logia user control something that's not from their bodies. 18:34, July 17, 2011 (UTC)

Again, what would be the reference that tells, without a doubt, that ALL Logia's are not capable controlling the element out of their body? After all this is the article about Logias, not the Suna Suna no Mi (which is special to begin with)
 * After all, we did choose "Hyozo" until we saw "Hyouzou". 18:35, July 17, 2011 (UTC)

All that without using lines like "it seems" or "it would makes sense" or something similar? I mean the general rule on the wiki is that if you add information you are in charge to prove it, not the one doubting it. Else everyone can hop in and add their conclusions to everything. 18:36, July 17, 2011 (UTC)

Alright, a quote from SBS Volume 20 Chapter 179 page 66 to solve things:

Reader: Question, Odacchi! Ace ate the Mera Mera no Mi so he can... Oda: The answer is (1). But his secret move "Hiken" (Fire Punch) is a skill where he raises his "firepower" and turns his fist into a huge flame, so it ends up looking more like (2).
 * (1) "Can turn his body into flame"?
 * (2) "Can shoot flame from his body", which one is it?

Does this help? He merely becomes fire, and uses that in his body to make Hiken. Also, @Jinbe, I used the Suna Suna no Mi as merely an example for ALL Logia. 18:41, July 17, 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't really help, since it is only directed to his body, which is unquestioned.

And about Crocodile, what about this 669px-Deserto_Girasole.jpg ? There is no way to tell if he used his own sand there or manipulated everything. This even brings the "mixes his own sand" back into play.

But this doesn't concern me at all. It is the fact that we state it like it comes out of Vegapunks mouth. The appropriate way (if at all) would be to state that there is no clear sign that Logias can control their element that didn't came out of their body. We have yet to clearly witness it, but it doesn't mean that the whole family of logias can't.

Similar how we handled fishmen and devil fruits. We didn't state that they can't use them, we just said that we have yet to witness a fishmen using a devil fruit. 19:00, July 17, 2011 (UTC)

It is generally very difficult to prove that something is true, usually you made a deduction based on your data and, if it fits the data, it can be thought as true unless you find a counter-example, it's the same for this or for proving a physic law (think about the gravity law)... and it's not the same about the DF-fishman thing, because that theory was based on nothing, because there was nothing to think they cannot have a df. If you think that this is speculate, I don't, because we provide enough examples to show that a logia-user always use the outside environment only as a catalyst. About the desert girasole, Crocodile said that he can dedect thee quick-sands, so it was already there... but I think he activated it whith the "desert la spada" which created a void in the sand. So, about the "mixing their element", will we simply say that they use their environment to amplifie their own element?

We also have to be careful with how we use the word "manipulate". Some of Kuzan's attacks (like those spears he shot at Whitebeard) could be seen as manipulating the element since ice doesn't naturally take the form of perfect spears like that. 19:36, July 17, 2011 (UTC)

I really don't agree with this. "I think". "I believe". Since when do we play Oda like that? Please tell me why it is necessary to state "they can not, under any circumstances, control the element outside of their body", while all we have are vague observations? Its like calling Doflamingo a DF user while nothing is confirmed.

Why? I'm serious, why do we have to handle it like we have total insight? (which we have undoubtedly not, as this discussion shows). 19:41, July 17, 2011 (UTC)

I understand your concern and you're right. But I don't see any problems in stating that, since until now I never thought that logia users could manipulate the environment (like Shiki's example). Then, the examples we showed here count nothing? I'll try to find a better reference of course, but is it really a speculation to state that?

Right, I want to make clear again that I have nothing against the theory itself. I would just like a neutral approach on the matter, instead of selling it as a cleared up fact. I would have nothing against rephrasing the paragraph. Like "we have yet to witness a logia user controlling the element when it didn't came from his/her body". Why do we have to act like we know the exact workings? 20:04, July 17, 2011 (UTC)

Well I suppose it's ok then. We can say that up until now, logia user has always used the environment as catalyst and not showed control over it.

Right, Caribou can create a swamp out of his own body, and become a swamp body itself, but he haven't seen him controlling a swamp in the marshes or anything like that. So until we see something like that, we don't put they can or cannot control elements outside of their own bodies. We simply put something like "Logia are people who can generate, become and control an element from their bodies". We don't need to write "they can/cannot control the said element from an already existing source". 20:15, July 17, 2011 (UTC)

So, can we get rid of the paragraph or do we have to vote? 19:34, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

"Get rid"? Do you mean make it more "neutral" like it seems that or we never seen a logia user?

Either way, tho Yata has a point with his example. We usually don't state what characters or things can not do, means this would be an exception to the rule.

I would like to remove it completely, but if you and DP want it so badly to stay then I agree (at least) to rephrase it completely. 19:44, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

Guys, I have a question and if you find the answer, you might find an answer to this big problem, now the question: Did Oda explain what a Logia DF user does, in the manga, through a character or anywhere else, and if he did, then we just need to have in the article what he says! All you're doing is speculating! 19:54, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

@Jinbe: yes rephrase it will be the best solution in my opinion and I mean rephrase it like we do with the trivias. And is it really a special case? I have the impression we always describe the powers/abilities of a character by what he showed he has able or not able to do.

@Ricizubi: the only direct explanation of logia powers by Oda was the SBS question mentioned by Yatano, for what I remember.

P.S.: we should really send a letter to Oda inviting him to join the wiki... everything would be simpler...

I absolutely agree with you Levi, we need to invite Oda on this wiki, but we need a representative!hmmm Yata is the best choice, but I think we should discuss this topic somewhere else... 20:11, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

But things could be so simple. Let's just state what we know for sure. Even if we say "we haven't seen a logia user manipulating his element outside of his body" it would be the same lie (since we don't know for sure, see Crocodile gyrasole).

The "golden rule" of become, control and produce is fanmade as well, Oda never stated it. But there we describe what we have clearly witnessed, unlike speculating about what a logia user can not do, just because we haven't (clearly) seen it. You know what I mean? 20:15, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

But we can't always wait Oda word on everything (that's why I said let's invite him!), since he will not clarify every problem. If we only state what we have seen, that is a logia user become, produce and control the element generated by his body we don't speculate. That thing about the "girasole", I think it was misjudged by us, because the quick sand was already there, it wasn't created by Crocodile, so there isn't any problem on that matter. I think this case is similar to the discussion about Jozu DF, which someone thought was a Logia. In that case we don't know if it's a logia or a paramisha, but for what we have seen we have no reason to think it's a logia. Let's reason for absurd: if you are too strict on "what we know" and "what we don't know" we can be sure that Luffy is a human since it was never stated, or that whitebeard could be a giant for the same reason. We should follow the rule, "avoid stating thing that are in doubt", but for the rest it shouldn't be a big problem.

If it comes from deduction through observation, then I think it would be fine as long as the majority agrees on it. It seems like we are riding too much on the fact that no explanation about it came directly from Oda, which is fine, but to a point. We have to be able to trust our own observations and add them through consenus. If it turns out to be wrong, we fix it. We had the old Vander Decken as captain of the Flying Dutchman until his grandson was properly introduced, so we can do the same thing here until there's a better explanation about Logias. 20:41, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

"We should follow the rule, "avoid stating thing that are in doubt", but for the rest it shouldn't be a big problem."

I think the discussion clearly shows that we are in doubt, since no side can provide clear evidence. Also, I agree that observation is okay to a degree, but we have to differ between the articles and sections (like trivia). Devil fruits are holy ground and Oda stated he would go into detail later on (when he formally introduces Vegapunk). This is no case of "we have to use common sense because Oda will probably never explain it".

And thats why I see absolutely no reason to leave it as it is. We have no right to spread our own conclusions when it comes to fundamental workings of One Piece. 12:09, July 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * About "Oda stated he would go into detail later on (when he formally introduces Vegapunk)", I think he'll explain what they are and maybe how can they transfer their powers, but I doubt he will explain again the logia powers. And in this discussion we are more debating on keep that sentence or not, then if it's true or not. But still, are you ok to reword it or do you really want mention it nowhere?
 * That depends on the rewording I guess. I really hate it when people just add a "This is not confirmed by Oda" line below a paragraph (often seen in the trivia section). 12:25, July 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * That depends on the rewording I guess. I really hate it when people just add a "This is not confirmed by Oda" line below a paragraph (often seen in the trivia section). 12:25, July 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * All this wall of text and people have provided few real chapters references to properly support the paragraph in question, which as of now hasn't been disproved by the latest chapters. We have Ace's Hiken (Chapter 159), Crocodile's Desert Girasole and Sables (Chapter 178), Enel's El Thor (Chapter 274), Aokiji's Ice Ball and Ice Block: Partisan (Chapter 567), Kizaru's Yasakani no Magatama (Chapter 580) and Akainu's Inugami Guren (Chapter 568). Smoker's Moku Moku no Mi attacks (Chapter 100, 158, 168) also follows the pattern.


 * All of the above attacks are mid-range to long-range and follow the same pattern. The attacks are produced by the user's body and remained connected with it for as long as the control it. Crocodile said that even he couldn't stop the sandstorm he send to Yuba, Enel had to destroy himself Angel Island and the Shandian Village (Chapter 293) after he initiated Deathpiea and it was also he who shot at Giant Jack (Chapter 294, 297) during Luffy's ascend. These are the best examples presented in the manga. On the other hand, I haven't find any that support the opposite. MasterDeva 18:16, November 29, 2011 (UTC)