Talk:Nine Red Scabbards

Members
I think it's safe to conclude that the rest of the retainers are members:


 * The group was said to be comprised of the Kozuki Family's retainers, who were tasked with opening the borders of Wano. (chap 919 page 6)
 * The retainers we know were tasked the same thing. (chap 819 page 4)
 * Both groups are lead by Kin'emon.

Is that enough of a prove? Rhavkin (talk) 22:53, February 7, 2019 (UTC)

I would say no. We are sure to get more information in the near future, and we do not want to speculate. 23:05, February 7, 2019 (UTC)

"10th" Red Scabbard
There are only nine red scabbards. That "10th" one is obviously Kikunojo in her younger years. Mugiwara1994 (talk) 19:53, October 14, 2019 (UTC)

Oda confirmed otherwise in SBS 94. Rhavkin (talk) 20:03, October 14, 2019 (UTC)

No he didn't. He said that Izou and Kiku look similar and the answer will be revealed one day. He never said it was a different character either way. SeaTerror (talk) 06:23, October 15, 2019 (UTC)

That "10th Scabbard" was definitely just kiku. (GoldenOath20 (talk) 06:35, October 15, 2019 (UTC))

The only translation we have says "Huh? thought it was Okiku...but the person feels a little different..." Rhavkin (talk) 06:50, October 15, 2019 (UTC)

What does that even mean? (GoldenOath20 (talk) 08:29, October 15, 2019 (UTC))

That this a person different from Kiku. Rhavkin (talk) 08:30, October 15, 2019 (UTC)

He never directly said they were different. He hinted at it and said everything would be revealed later. SeaTerror (talk) 08:46, October 15, 2019 (UTC)

"Huh? thought it was Okiku...but the person feels a little different..." Rhavkin (talk) 09:21, October 15, 2019 (UTC)

I'm not going to post the definitions of feels and is for you. SeaTerror (talk) 18:11, October 15, 2019 (UTC)

Feels a little different is the whole thing about Kiku being a guy or a girl.--Nightmare Pirates (talk) 19:34, October 15, 2019 (UTC)

Oda also said in his answer "One day the answer to this question will be revealed, so just continue reading." He left the question hanging with zero confirmation that it's Kiku, thus we should not claim otherwise. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 20:17, October 15, 2019 (UTC)

That's fine by me. But at the same time, do we really need to add a single appearance character with no significance. If we add this character and it turns out that it is Kiku, then the wiki would have had wrong and misleading info of a secret 10th scabbard. On the other hand, us leaving it out would have no mistakes to it whether it is proved to be Kiku or not. We gotta stop adding random characters that appeared in one scene for one second.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 20:23, October 15, 2019 (UTC)

"Feels a little different is the whole thing about Kiku being a guy or a girl" That makes no sense whatsoever. Also Oda left the question hanging as in if it wasn't Kiku or it was so they shouldn't even be on the template at all. SeaTerror (talk) 09:17, October 16, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with removing them from the template. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 14:38, October 16, 2019 (UTC)

Why? If it isn't Kiku, the character should be included. And we had several case with the Charlotte Family\Big Mom Pirates and Wano Country characters where we had a character appear twice, once as mentioned and another as an unnamed character until it was confirmed otherwise, so even if it is Kiku, until confirmed we shouldn't assume it is. Rhavkin (talk) 14:45, October 16, 2019 (UTC)

Thing is we don't know if he is actually a Scabbard. It's kinda speculating to say that, there used to be ten based on the existence on what may or may not be a new character.--Nightmare Pirates (talk) 23:40, October 16, 2019 (UTC)

We don't know when they started to be called by that name, and they always appeared as nine people, at most Kiku replaced that person. Rhavkin (talk) 04:21, October 17, 2019 (UTC)

Exactly my point. No one said in that chapter that that character was a Scabbard at all. And, as you said, "we don't know when they started to be called by that name," which means they might have only started being called that after Kiku joined (assuming that's not Kiku). This page is about the "Nine Red Scabbards," not "Nine First Followers of Oden." Even if that person was part of a nine-person group and was replaced by Kiku later on, he still wouldn't be a Scabbard and in the Scabbard gallery because, as you have said, "we don't know when they started to be called by that name."Nightmare Pirates (talk) 06:33, October 18, 2019 (UTC)

And it does make sense to say "Feels a little different is the whole thing about Kiku being a guy or a girl." That character feels a little different from Kiku, because the Kiku that we see right now looks nothing like him. Why? Because Kiku dresses like a woman now.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 06:35, October 18, 2019 (UTC)

The time of the naming is irrelevant, even if an official name was decided upon at a later date, the group history stays the same.

The whole argument of "feels a little different" = "Kiku's gender" is speculative at best, and insensitive at worst, and should be discussed on Kiku's page, if at all. Rhavkin (talk) 07:02, October 18, 2019 (UTC)

The naming isn't irrelevant because literally "Nine Red Scabbards" is the group with Kiku in it. It's an assumption to say that it can be extended to some random character (if it isn't even Kiku). Group history is of course the same because this page is about the Scabbards. But if that is not Kiku, then there is absolutely no concrete evidence that that character is part of the Scabbards. Maybe a retainer of Kozuki, but literally cannot be the 10th member of a 9-person group. Or the former 9th member - because this is speculative that some dude existed and vanished and was replaced by Kiku as the 9th Scabbard.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 01:06, October 19, 2019 (UTC)

Look at the Ninja-Pirate-Mink-Samurai Alliance, the group has a history and members before the naming or all current members being part of it. Rhavkin (talk) 04:32, October 19, 2019 (UTC)

That's irrelevant to his point. By your logic if Luffy was actually called a Yonkou then he should be put on the template without accurately renaming it. SeaTerror (talk) 16:51, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

"Members before the naming" - those members became "members" specifically because they were part of the Ninja-Pirate-Mink-Samurai Alliance after it was officially formed. You can't be a member of that specific group if you didn't join it after it was formed. For someone to be a "member", we must actually know they were a member. We don't know if that random, supposed unknown, character became a member. Maybe he was in a different group called the "Nine Red Beetles" or whatever, he still wouldn't be a "Scabbard" member until it is actually confirmed.--Nightmare Pirates (talk) 08:18, October 27, 2019 (UTC)

That is true if you can find proof that they weren't named then. Rhavkin (talk) 08:28, October 27, 2019 (UTC)

I may not have proof that they weren't named then, but likewise, there is no proof they were named then (because they aren't called the Nine Red Scabbards in that scene). If we can assume that they were already named the "Nine Red Scabbards" then because it is a nine-person group that serves under Oden and that basically has all the members of the Scabbards we see today, then that is no different than assuming that that is actually Kiku (because that would make the most sense as it is a nine person group serving under Oden). Nightmare Pirates (talk) 08:36, October 27, 2019 (UTC)

Assuming that was Kiku was what we did Until Oda said it isn't necessarily the case. The asuumption that that group, which include Ashura Doji and the minks, and the fact they were said to be Oden's followers in the flashback indicate that it happened after Oden took over Kuri, thus became its ruler and they are his retainers. Rhavkin (talk) 08:48, October 27, 2019 (UTC)

Well, who's to say Oden didn't have other retainers? Those other retainers wouldn't be Scabbards either. When did it say that the Nine Red Scabbards were nine retainers from the beginning of Oden's rule? Because it didn't and since we cannot assume that that is Kiku, we also can't assume that that person was part of the Nine Red Scabbards that Kiku is in. If we can't assume its Kiku, we also can't assume it's not Kiku either since Oda never said "There was a person that was part of the group before Kiku". Leaving it out avoids confusion and assumption.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 09:23, October 27, 2019 (UTC)

Here is what we do know:
 * There was a group of nine people that followed Oden.
 * Eight of the nine are also confirmed to be Scabbards.
 * The former ninth member is implied to not be Kiku.

The question is whether the official naming determine the start of the group:
 * The straw Hat Pirates were officially named after Luffy started his journey, Zoro was recruited, Nami joined, and the Merry acquired.
 * The NPMSA has a history of Law's past, long before the Straw Hat and Heart Pirates were formed, and before Momonosuke group arrived to the present.

Rhavkin (talk) 09:34, October 27, 2019 (UTC)

Well I would argue that it wasn't implied that wasn't Kiku, as all Oda said was "it feels a little different". This could mean anything because literally when you look at the young versions of the Scabbards they all feel (and look) different than they are now. And also, any history of characters before a group is formed is relevant because those eventual group members all become part of said group. So none of your examples to prove otherwise of "the official naming determin[ing] the start of the group" help to disprove this claim, specifically because those in your examples all actually become part of the group (Luffy, Zoro, and Nami all become part of the Straw Hats; Law becomes part of the NPMSA). That unknown character (if not Kiku) is not known to eventually be part of the group (if not already), so we can't say he is. For example, Koby hung out with Luffy and Zoro before the Straw Hats were founded, this doesn't mean he is a Straw Hat just because he was with them. You only become part of a group (and have your picture in the gallery) if you end up actually being in the group. And also, I would add on to "Here is what we do know" that the nine person group includes only the people we see today as far as we know. That is what we know. We don't know if it included someone before Kiku and frankly, thats a big assumption.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 09:54, October 27, 2019 (UTC)