Talk:Sheepshead

Sheepshead's fruit
So can we really consider it a Zoan? A zoan only allows you to turn into that creature not something like this, unless I've been hidden about the existance of horned-hand sheeps. Can we really say it's actually a devil fruit?

Grievous67 (talk) 20:17, July 30, 2015 (UTC)

What else could it be? A sheep is an animal. Animals=Zoans. It's probably artificial but we don't know yet. Just leave it be. 20:20, July 30, 2015 (UTC)

I think it will be revealed to be the Sheep Sheep Fruit: Ram Model. Could be artificial since he's not turning into a sheep-human hybrid.

Actually, it is not only his hands that change, his hair is straight and slicked back in his normal form and becomes curly like a sheep when he uses his powers --Stingray0097 (talk) 06:10, July 31, 2015 (UTC)

We're talking about Kaidou here. It's overtly dense to say "we don't know what is" at this point. And it probably is artificial, considering all the swirls appearing on his limbs. 74.61.16.225 06:31, August 2, 2015 (UTC)

Yelling for Kaido
Isn't he the same guy who yelled for Kaido about Joker being defeated? Same goggles and hair colour. 184.64.174.130 04:24, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

Nope. I already checked it. 04:26, August 6, 2015 (UTC)

Though he's definetely that broker we saw back on volume 69 right?

Grievous67 (talk) 00:07, August 14, 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't match any of the portraits on the broker page. I don't think so. Sorry man. 02:40, August 14, 2015 (UTC)

I mean the guy on Volume 70 page 36, his cape does look quite similar. But yeah in the previous shot he's bald so I doubt it Grievous67 (talk) 14:29, August 14, 2015 (UTC)

I checked that out. He's from chapter 692. Same cape, same horns, talking about Jack. I'd say it's him. 21:33, February 6, 2016 (UTC)

That person has large, angular horns. Sheepshead's are smaller and rounder. 107.6.123.9 01:22, February 7, 2016 (UTC)

Smile
The page says Sheepshead ate a Smile (Artificial DF) but was this ever confirmed? for all we know he could have a sheep zoan  Judge Magister Pyarox  12:28, April 28, 2016 (UTC)

In Chapter 824 it was confirmed that all the Gifters ate SMILE Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 12:31, April 28, 2016 (UTC)

oh ok, thanks for the confirmation!  Judge Magister Pyarox  18:26, April 28, 2016 (UTC)

Status
He may be dead but it is unknown and unconfirmed. Speculation should be avoided. Vivre Card states Absalom is dead, but Sheepshead is not stated so. --Klobis (talk) 12:04, July 17, 2019 (UTC)

If he is underwater with a DF power, I think he should be considered dead until proven alive. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 12:09, July 17, 2019 (UTC)

I would like to point out that whatever is decided here should also be relevant to Ginrummy. Rhavkin (talk) 12:12, July 17, 2019 (UTC)

Sheepshead is a human SMILE-user and he has been confirmed to be sunk into the sea, so it's kinda obvious he's dead. Also, the "Sheepshead is not stated to be dead" is a weak argument, because if I'm not mistaken with Pedro wasn't stated either in his card and I don't see any argument about that. Aguacate (talk) 12:23, July 17, 2019 (UTC)

He was also tied and practically unconscious. PS: in Vergo's and Monet's cards wasn't explicitly stated that they are dead. Cracker-Kun (talk) 12:53, July 17, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with keeping the status unknown. 15:08, July 17, 2019 (UTC)

All of the ones mentioned should say unknown. SeaTerror (talk) 18:48, July 17, 2019 (UTC)

SeaTerror, why are you so against any new information revealed in Vivre Card? Rhavkin (talk) 20:28, July 17, 2019 (UTC)

I’m not against any of these characters still being alive somehow, so yeah, unknown sounds workable to me for the moment at least.Awareness Bringer 20:36, July 17, 2019 (UTC)

The Vivre Cards never said any of the mentioned characters were dead except Absalom which I missed the first time he was mentioned here. SeaTerror (talk) 20:56, July 17, 2019 (UTC)

Is it possible for there to be a middle ground between Status: Deceased and Status: Unknown.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 02:23, July 18, 2019 (UTC)

Something like "Presumed Deceased" for character that were last seen in a dire situation? Seem like opening a can of speculation. Besides, the Unknown for itself is a middle ground for those characters who status is unknown. This talk isn't about the status, but the information that the status is based on.

For me, saying someone drowned is the same as saying they died, with the way of death specified, like Kozuki Toki's burned, or Pedro's exploded. If Sheepshead had been saved, then he would have nearly drowned, DF or not. Rhavkin (talk) 03:42, July 18, 2019 (UTC)

Okay, just to get things straight: his Vivre Card never said he died? 05:06, July 18, 2019 (UTC)

It says that he sank in the sea. Cracker-Kun (talk) 12:20, July 18, 2019 (UTC)

Okay. So someone took that as dead for sure. 05:18, July 19, 2019 (UTC)

Yes but it didn't say he died. SeaTerror (talk) 07:41, July 19, 2019 (UTC)

I don't think "presumed deceased" is opening a bunch of speculation, it's based on what we know. We use "Unknown" for a bunch of things (idk why). We say unknown for all the Spade Pirates just because we haven't seen them. Presumed deceased would be a little more of a clarification to that unknown. Like what are the chances he's alive after sinking into the sea. Little to none, but we haven't seen his corpse. Think about it as "dead in absentia". No physical or visual evidence of his death, but all evidence strongly points towards it otherwise. Nightmare Pirates (talk) 04:33, July 20, 2019 (UTC)

I meant that using "presumed" is the same as using "speculated". For example, one might list, Jinbe and the Sun Pirates, the Vinsmoke Family,Pekoms, and after the latest chapter, Babanuki as "presumed deceased". All have reasonable arguments to be presumed to have died since we last saw them. Can you list what do you think are the criteria for each status? Rhavkin (talk) 07:34, July 20, 2019 (UTC)

Unknown is supposed to be only used for characters that there's no evidence one way or the other. If characters were seen alive the last time they were in the story then that means the alive status goes on except for a case like this which unknown fits. SeaTerror (talk) 09:38, July 20, 2019 (UTC)

It wouldn't make sense to make Jinbe, Vinsmokes, or Pekoms as "Presumed Deceased" because there isn't any (compelling) evidence that pointed to them being killed or being dead. For Sheepshead, the argument was that sank in the sea implies death because he's a devil fruit eater. This talk started because of that very reason of being presumed dead due to inability to swim. Now I'm fine with saying "Unknown", but outright "Deceased" seems too presumptive in general, which is why presumed deceased is a good middle ground. Or we could go with what Vivre Card says and say Status: "Sank in Sea". Last time I checked, there was no rule dictating the definition of status.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 06:28, July 21, 2019 (UTC)

All of them went against a yonko and her crew that was shown to be in a well enough condition to fight against another yonko crew. I'm not saying their dead nor presumed dead, just that if a "Presumed Deceased" status is implemented, many users would classify them as that. The word "presumed" as itself isn't that far from "possibly" and "speculated". Rhavkin (talk) 06:36, July 21, 2019 (UTC)

I guess that's true. But just as how it is being debated about making Sheepshead deceased. It would be needed for that too. But "going against a Yonko and her crew", is nowhere near as compelling a reason as "Vivre Card said he 'sank into the sea' as a Devil Fruit user". I'm not saying we do that for other cases, but only for Sheepshead if it remains so divided. Nightmare Pirates (talk) 08:21, July 21, 2019 (UTC)

The only reason for the debate is the source. If a Beasts pirate would have said in a conversation that Sheepshead drowned or sank with the Mammoth there wouldn't be a discussion at all, since Jack was there and was rescued, the Beasts Pirates would know whether or not he was rescued. Even with the VC info, there are four possibilities for his state after the Zou Arc:


 * 1) Sank with the Mammoth and drowned.
 * 2) Sank with the Mammoth, was rescued by another crew member, and traveled back to Wano Country.
 * 3) Sank with the Mammoth, was rescued by another crew member, and killed for his failures or died from his injuries.
 * 4) Sank with the Mammoth, was rescued by another crew member, and escape before being killed for his failures.

Without the info, he could have survived by landing on a piece of the ship and options 2-4 still apply. There is also the possibility he escaped and drowned later or eaten by a Sea King or any number or possibilities. "Unknown" is the best option with or without the VC info. Rhavkin (talk) 08:36, July 21, 2019 (UTC)