Forum:Following the official release schedule

I would like to propose extending the ban on spoilers to unofficial chapter scanlations. This would mean that information from new chapters would not be allowed on the wiki until the official chapter release date (normal schedule: Sundays 20:00 UTC).

As you may know, the groups responsible for unofficial scanlations during the past few years have ended their work on One Piece. There are currently no properly organized attempts to translate One Piece scans into English. This is looking to result in a mess of botched translations with varying quality on a weekly basis, possibly retranslated from other scanlations in different languages. I think it is best to disavow these for the sake of maintaining a standard of accuracy on the wiki.

The official release is typically only about 2 days behind unofficial scans now. It won't be that difficult to make the switch and starting waiting a few days. Editors can use that time to prepare for the new content. We would need to devote effort to make this rule clear to the userbase at the beginning, but with the right precautions we can prevent most of the issues. 19:13, January 3, 2020 (UTC)

Discussion
The translations of Chapter 967 made it pretty apparent that if we start putting information on the wiki right away based purely on scans we're bound to wind up with false information in a bunch of places. I don't think we need to consider it "spoilers", like if some piece of information is obvious regardless of the quality of the translation then I don't see any reason to not include it. But I think we should wait until there's reliable sources of information other than scanlations for most stuff. DewClamChum (talk) 19:24, January 3, 2020 (UTC)

I agree with the proposal. After seeing the huge amount of inconsistencies and literal mistranslations and liberties with the initial scans of Chapter 967, we can't be sure about every single piece of information until we can verify them with a "reliable" source.Aguacate (talk) 19:31, January 3, 2020 (UTC)

I agree, I think the time is ripe. If we get more translations that are the same quality as 967 then keeping spoilers off the wiki would probably be easier than fixing the misinformation from those translations lol. We should have the editors to be able to oversee the transition. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 19:37, January 3, 2020 (UTC)

I support this change. With how fast and accurate the official translations are, especially given our lack a quality fan translation, it is a no-brainer. If the issue is about keeping spoilers off of our wiki, we have administrators and content moderators for a reason. During the transition, we will just need to be on higher alert. 13:30, January 7, 2020 (UTC)

Given the terrible translation of 967, I think it is the most logical opinion. At the beginning it will cost the change but it is the best option. Cracker-Kun (talk)

I think it should be noted that the TL team posted an apology and explained that they actually re-translated a Korean translation. So mistakes were bound to happen. I'm not sure if there's a TL team that has access to the raws at the moment, but if such a team exists, I think we could use their TL. I can always double check in case anything seems fishy. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:24, January 10, 2020 (UTC)

There's no sense in the wiki trying to curate inconsistent scanlation releases and clean up after them. The official release is consistent in both timing and quality. It's best to just get everything right the first time rather than fix things in the days following. The wiki has no need to rush out information from chapters that aren't even out in Japan yet. 10:19, January 11, 2020 (UTC)

I don't think that's ever going to happen. Even Oda doesn't always gets things right. And I mean, it's not like the fan TLs were always 100% correct in the past. If a reliable team shows up, I don't see any need to change the procedure. So far, this crappy TL has only happened once, after all. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:11, January 11, 2020 (UTC)

With the exception of using the official English naming, I see no major problem with this.

However, I doubt many casual users would follow this and not just simply edit pages based on scanlation. What you are basically suggesting, is classifying every edit until the official release the same way we classified APforums spoilers and I doubt it will hold before a new scanlation team would surface.

Other then protecting every page related with every thing in a new chapter, and contently undoing, which would result in a protraction, we can't really stop someone from editing if they have access to a scan, so maybe we should have what some other wikias do and add a chapter page with the date, name, and basic chapter notes that are not text related until the official release.Rhavkin (talk) 16:42, January 11, 2020 (UTC)

I wouldn't be opposed to having an article for the chapter itself up in advance, if the information on it was restricted as suggested. If the chapter article had a disclaimer about the new policy (similar to Template:Unreleased, but more noticeable) that could reduce problems in regards to casual users. Apart from that, I don't think protecting articles would actually be that difficult most of the time. It seems like new chapter information is mainly added by veteran users, so once they're well-informed, a mid-level protection (Block new and unregistered users) could suffice in most cases. It is also possible to block editing for unregistered users entirely during the wait periods, if necessary. 17:46, January 11, 2020 (UTC)

Is IP editing allowed here? Because I'd suggest turning it off as a means to prevent leaks getting added. And again: A new reliable team while rise sooner or later, so why's there a need to change procedure at all? Just because of one bad chapter? • Seelentau 愛 議 18:57, January 11, 2020 (UTC)

Yes, IP editing is normally allowed. That's was I was referring to with "It is also possible to block editing for unregistered users entirely during the wait periods".

There's several reasons for going with this change. The official release is now so close to the leaks, freely available and accurate that in my mind it just makes sense to stop relying on unofficial sources. The switch makes the routine consistent and the wiki more professional. The unreliability of scanlations is and has been an issue. There may be new teams, but quality may vary and then those team might randomly quit. Or they don't get the chapter out before others slap together a retranslation from whatever language. There's no guarantee of anything. Complete raws typically aren't available before official release either, so several times in the past we've had to wait in order to check something. It's not like the latest chapter is the only one that had issues, it was just the most noticeable instance in recent times so it made people think about this.

By the way, it seems like the official release is getting moved to an even earlier time. The schedule suggests the chapters will come out 5 hours earlier going forward. 16:40, January 12, 2020 (UTC)

I see, okay. Well, do you want my bot to change "Zoro" to "Zolo" and "Beast Pirates" to "Animal Kingdom Pirates"? • Seelentau 愛 議 18:32, January 12, 2020 (UTC)

That won't be necessary. Only the spoiler rules are affected here. 19:39, January 12, 2020 (UTC)

Wait, I'm confused. You just said that "it just makes sense to stop relying on unofficial sources". So we only go by what VIZ says, right? Stuff like "Beast Pirates" comes from an unofficial and thus, according to you, unreliable source, as far as I know. So by your own rule change, we would cease to use this name and switch over to the official VIZ translation. Wasn't that the whole point of this? Or is it pick-and-choose? Because right now, what you're basically saying is "fan-TLs are unreliable so we won't use them and instead use VIZ, except for some cases like 'Beast Pirates' where we still use those unreliable fan-TLs". Arbitrary rules like that open a whole can of worms. I mean, who gets to decide if a fan-TL is reliable or not? And on what grounds?

And you also said complete raws aren't available before official release, but that doesn't apply to everyone. If someone had access to the raws, would they be exempt from the rule? Or would that not be allowed, simply because others don't have access? How many people would have to have access to allow raw information to be added?

I don't know, you posted a new ruleset already, but this whole thing doesn't really seem that fleshed out to me. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:07, January 12, 2020 (UTC)

Seel, as I said yesterday, the OR naming is the exception since they use literal translations. The wiki has several Japanese speaking user that are usually more reliable then viz. Let's agree to cross that bridge when we get there. Rhavkin (talk) 20:20, January 12, 2020 (UTC)

That doesn't make any sense. The new rule is to be set in place because of the unreliability of the fan-TLs. And now you're saying that we have fan-TLs that are more reliable than VIZ? That would make the new rule obsolete, wouldn't it? • Seelentau 愛 議 20:25, January 12, 2020 (UTC)

The intention is not to "only go by what VIZ says". Their translations can still be questioned if need be. Name spellings/terminology in particular are a different matter entirely, which is not a matter of "reliability" of translation per se. What is the subject of discussion here is the period of time where only unofficial scanlations are available. When the chapter is not officially released. When I say "stop relying on unofficial sources", I mean that we won't be reliant on whatever the state of scanlations may be when we start adding information. Following the official release schedule guarantees consistency.

Not sure what you mean with the raw information matter. Even with the current ruleset it's forbidden to post information about the chapter if an English translation isn't out. 20:58, January 12, 2020 (UTC)

It'll have to be case by case. Rhavkin (talk) 20:59, January 12, 2020 (UTC)

So after VIZ released their chapter, we're allowed to use fan-TLs as reference to add information, but adding information before VIZ released their chapter is generally not allowed anymore, even if a fan-TL exists?

And regarding the raws: What I'm saying is, if a fan-TL exists before VIZ released their chapter, and someone who knows JP can doublecheck the fan-TL with the raw, would they be allowed to add information? I guess not, if I understand this rule change correctly, right?

So all in all: New information is only to be added to the wiki after VIZ has released their chapter, no matter if a fan-TL exists before. If so, then IP edits should definitely be deactivated. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:05, January 12, 2020 (UTC)

First point: Yes. Second point: Right. You're understanding correctly. Yeah, it is probably best to deactivate IP edits. 21:15, January 12, 2020 (UTC)

I think you've already forgotten how was it with the "reliable scanlations": A chapter was released usually not in English or Japanese, translated by the "reliable teams", and the pages was updated, then, occasionally there would be debates about naming which more often then none resulted in "wait for the official release", "wait for the raw", or "wait for the volume release", and after each of those time points were reached, the pages were edited accordingly. Basically, nothing would change other the dates and the source by which the first edit is done.

As I see it there are three common cases with viz\scanlation\raw naming:
 * Bad translations - Zoro v. Zolo
 * Literal Translation:
 * Honorifics - O-Tama and O-Kiku
 * Idioms - Beast, Hundred Beasts, Animal Kingdom

All of those would either require a community decision or a reliable Japanese speaking user. Rhavkin (talk) 21:27, January 12, 2020 (UTC)

Which we have at least three from, as far as I'm aware. • Seelentau 愛 議 23:24, January 12, 2020 (UTC)

If a fan translation manages to entrench itself into the community as well as Mangastream or Jaimini's did, and the online community clearly revolves around that release, then I might support going back to the old way down the road. But given the steps taken by Shueisha, and the responses of Mangastream and Jaimini's as a result, I think it's the logical step to go their way - of course, just as we did not take their translations as law, neither do we have to treat Viz as such. The chapter page thing proposed below seems like a good compromise ultimately. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 05:00, January 13, 2020 (UTC)

New Rules
The majority is in favor of the proposal, so I wrote a draft for the new rules. This incorporates the suggestion of a restricted chapter article. The update would be announced via community announcement. 17:02, January 12, 2020 (UTC)
 * Do not add information from a new chapter to any other article, other than the article of the chapter (titled 'Chapter ####'), until the chapter is officially available in English.
 * The official release platforms are VIZ and Manga Plus.
 * Do not upload images from a new chapter until the chapter is officially available.
 * An article for a new chapter can be created when a release date is confirmed.
 * Do not add information based on spoilers to the article.
 * If the complete chapter is unofficially released in English, the chapter article can be updated with the following information: Title, Cover Page, Characters, as well as Chapter Notes based on visually verifiable information.

Suggested addition to the images rule: Since the raw would be available very close to the OR (official release), there really isn't a need for a scanlation images at all. Rhavkin (talk) 19:42, January 12, 2020 (UTC)

Makes sense. 20:06, January 12, 2020 (UTC)

Don't make chapter articles until it is out then. That's the reason why we had issues with the unreleased template. SeaTerror (talk) 07:48, January 13, 2020 (UTC)

ST, you are speaking in title again. What "issues with the unreleased template"? I for one don't know what you are referring to, nor am I were there were ever issues with that template. Can you be more specific? Rhavkin (talk) 08:03, January 13, 2020 (UTC)

Why is "title" allowed, when it can be as unreliably translated as other text-based information? • Seelentau 愛 議 15:37, January 13, 2020 (UTC)

I included it based on Rhavkin's suggestion. If it seems like an issue then it could be removed.. Not sure what ST is referring to but there will be a new template made for this. 17:36, January 14, 2020 (UTC)

btw, adding the Japanese title to the (empty) chapter prior to official release is forbidden, right? Even if I leave the translation empty. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:44, January 14, 2020 (UTC)

I guess it would be if title is disallowed. 17:52, January 14, 2020 (UTC)

Oh so "title" refers to both? I thought it refers only to the title's English TL. The Japanese should be unaffected, shouldn't it? I mean, what's the point of having people who know Japanese on board when they can't add Japanese stuff^^ • Seelentau 愛 議 18:31, January 14, 2020 (UTC)

Well, then the rule can be modified to state "Japanese Title". 19:25, January 14, 2020 (UTC)

Yeah we need to use Japanese titles for chapters. Viz is usually different than what the actual translation means. SeaTerror (talk) 20:17, January 14, 2020 (UTC)

What I mean is: Chapter 968 will come out in a few days. If we don't use fan-TLs, the article intro will say "Chapter 968 is titled ' '." and the infobox won't have a VIZ title. I will add the Japanese title and romanization as soon as it's available to me, of course. But what should I/we put in the intro until the release? Nothing? By the way, since we know when the chapter will be released, wouldn't an article be okay to create already? • Seelentau 愛 議 12:41, January 15, 2020 (UTC)

The introduction can instead state the release date, as we do with volumes before the title is announced. "Chapter 968 is set to be released on January 20, 2020". The chapter article can be created once these rules are added to the Guidebook. It seems we're ready now, so I'll go ahead with that and the announcement. 13:04, January 15, 2020 (UTC)