Talk:Haki/Busoshoku Haki

Background Section
A lot of the wording in the background section doesnt really make a lot of sense. 173.48.16.6 02:40, February 2, 2014 (UTC)Annoymous

be more specific-- 02:43, February 2, 2014 (UTC)

Caesar Clown
Caesar Clown is Busoshoku Haki user too.

He stabbed Monet's (Logia's) heart instead of Smoker's heart (also Logia).

Not really a confirmation of anything. Logia abilities don't automatically activate (unless they're trained to do so, like Crocodile's) 22:32, February 2, 2014 (UTC)

Uhmmm..NO. Why is this even an active discussion? Gal gave the exlanation, I agree 100%.

Trivia & Hardening Validity
"The reason of this could be that Oda simply decided to use it after the time skip, (especially to demonstrate visually the use of Haki of his main characters, like Luffy, who before the time skip could not use this type of Haki) or he did not get the idea until that time."

12th Supernova, if you can prove that this line is canonical (it's not, it's an assumption based on nothing), then we will use that description. This line of trivia is dangerous because it implies:

1. Marineford war combatants used hardening but we couldn't see it.

2. Oda retconned.

3. But wait it's a visual effect.

For now, we are sticking with my updated description:

'''The Hardening version of Busoshoku Haki, introduced by Luffy after the timeskip, seems to be the preferred and stronger version of Busoshoku Haki by many, if not, all characters who can use it. However, during the Battle of Marineford where some of the most powerful pirates, marines, and shichibukai alike fought, only the invisible application was being used. After the timeskip, flashbacks and characters in the New World proved that the Hardened version was the more common superior application, begging the question why strong combatants in the Battle of Marineford didn't use it.'''

Which states:

1. All strong characters are using hardening in not only the post-TS timeline but also flashbacks.

2. Characters have used the invisible application post-TS but no invisible application has been shown to be superior to hardening.

3. Marineford War combatants didn't use hardening because there is no evidence to support it.

4. It's interesting because they are STRONG characters that didn't use hardening.

5. And that it's a MYSTERY why they didn't use it. No fluff, speculation, or attempts were made to answer this specific question. It just is, because it's trivia.

"Visual cue" and inferred retcon are poor attempts at answering the question. If this was the case, then we wouldn't have multiple instances of hardening being referred to as "hardening" and not just "busoshoku haki". We also wouldn't have people still using invisible CoA.

Nexus32 (talk) 04:38, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

So many things are wrong with both I don't even know where to start. I'm in favor of just canning it completely. And you act like he's never retconned before. 04:46, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

It is most likely a retcon because Luffy is the only one who gives it a specific name. It is probably better to just remove it since both versions contain some speculation. Also, it's pretty rude to declare what we are going with before anyone else has posted. The way discussions like this work is usually majority rules. 04:58, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

I think it's important trivia, cos it is a fairly common question. I'm against removing it completely, and it's not like we've never used speculation about Haki before.

08:25, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

It's one thing to speculate about something solid. It's another thing entirely to speculate about something as uncertain as this. We're running completely blind on the reason behind it. Just say it is unknown why some people's haki has been seen while others' hasn't. 08:30, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. 10:34, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

who knows, maybe it's like the limewater expt we did as kids. blow enough air into the colourless liquid and it becomes milky. keep blowing air and it becomes colourless again. So maybe the use of Haki by the weak and the strongest don't have a blackening effect. sigh.. speculation. Bahamut.Egg (talk) 11:48, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

You're implying that carbon dioxide makes Haki change colour...

11:51, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

Hence, Caesar is the ultimate Haki master. See discussion above.

Anyway, since we're going off topic, can I start a new one? or rather, this one about the Admirals' shield  Bahamut.Egg (talk) 11:56, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

You should make a new section for that. 21:10, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

"Although the black skin effect of its usage is common after the timeskip, it was not seen at all before. The reason for this is currently unknown."

This updated line implies that there is only one form of Busoshoku Haki. This is simply not true and I question whether any of you know anything about Haki. We know there is Hardening and we know there is the invisible application. The black skin effect is most undoubtedly hardening and not just some random effect that people who can use CoA throw in. There is a CLEAR difference. Attempting to convince anyone there is only one form of CoA honestly rubbing thousands of OP fans the wrong way... Here's how it should be worded:

"Although Hardening had existed before the timeskip, it was not revealed to have been used in the past until a flashback with Garp and Chinjao, which was shown after the timeskip.  Before the timeskip, the manga did not show anyone using Hardening. The reason for this is currently unknown."

Nexus32 (talk) 03:05, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

What a coincidence, because I question whether you can say anything without sounding like a rude and pretentious prick. We're going with what we have until we learn more. 04:02, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

If you don't want to be nominated for a ban, perhaps you should carefully consider your next reply. Let's walk through this conversation again. I said exactly why this piece of trivia is incredibly misleading by giving everyone 3 points of speculation/assumptions/jargon it implied. Next, I took the time to revise the piece and left no mystery for what I was implying, as I wrote 5 statements (all of which is factual or can be evinced by manga canon; and all citations of which I will supply if requested) under the summary I wrote. You come in, tell us both summaries are wrong, and say it should just be canned. You did not even try to dispute or contest anything I said yet you expect me to take you seriously. It's your lucky day - I will because you are a respected, experienced editor here. Some random (-PœtaNæs-) jumps in and removes the piece, rewrites with his wording, without even participating in this Talk, after I was instructed not to edit it until we figured it out together. I come in; criticize the updated wording (respectfully) WITHOUT pointing out that I just became a victim of double standards... and you respond by calling me a "rude and pretentious prick." I have to suspect whether this random editor is your mule because you are incredibly upset. Maybe I rubbed you the wrong way by genuinely asking whether any of you who supported this edit even knew anything about haki. Why? For one, nothing I said contradicted anything in this article. Second, I can think of over a dozen people who will explain CoA in incredible detail, supporting everything I stated earlier. Three, I have citations that'll prove everything I said. It's your move. Redefine Busoshoku Haki for all of us (with manga proof) or concede. I advise the latter because you wont win. Nexus32 (talk) 05:18, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

You do realize that DP is an admin here and there's no way anyone would get banned for calling you on rudeness. It's his job to enforce rules here such as not using sockpuppets (what you call mules) and accusing him of that makes you look bad. He's right in calling you rude and pretentious because you didn't just state your argument, you stated it and then said that was what we were going with as though you could make that decision on your own. You need to be polite and willing to compromise or you will likely end up getting banned. 06:51, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

(eats popcorn) This ought to be fun.

06:54, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

I just checked and the user you accused of being a "mule" was only adding an external link and did nothing to the passage in dispute. Next time you accuse someone, at least check your facts. 06:56, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Maybe an assistant spilled some ink and Oda was like, OK, we'll go with it. Hawkinz340 (talk) 19:00, April 23, 2014 (UTC)