Talk:Art of Weather/Fourth Clima-Tact

Name/Merge
We don't know the name of it, it appears to just be called "Sorcery Clima Tact", just like the old one. Let's just merge it onto the old page in a section called "Sorcery Clima Tact mk. 2" or something like that. Same name means it goes on the same page. 14:02, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

The fact that we don't know the name in noted by the Conjectural Name Template. However, no matter how you look at it, its a new weapon, a new version of the Clime-Tact, and it deserve a tab of its own.

Rhavkin (talk) 14:20, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

Just leave this page up temporarily until more information can be found and decide on what to do once the name has been officially revealed. In addition a template should be left up at the top of the page to state it has no official name. -Adv193 (talk) 15:22, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

"It's the SORCERY Clima Tact I've always dreamed of!" My understanding is that the kanji matches as well. It's called the sorcery clima tact, there is no unknown name. No amount of waiting will get us a new name, because there isn't one. 15:37, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

That's what Nami said, not what's its named. A ship is a ship, but ships has a name regardless, as due swords, devil fruits, attacks, islands... Rhavkin (talk) 15:44, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

Sorcery Clima-Tact is still a name, and Nami called it that, so I support merging Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 15:47, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

But even then if it's a Sorcery Clima Tact it's certainly not the same one. I like the separate tab, as well as calling it Sorcery Clima Tact Mk. 2. Or if we're going with the previously established naming scheme, "Perfect Sorcery Clima Tact". Leaving the name conjectural for now is probably the best option.Rayfire (talk) 15:50, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

Plus it was just introduced, so it hasn't been used in battle yet, so it should be considered on leaving this page up for now until more appropriate information is revealed that will determine on what should be done about this. -Adv193 (talk) 18:48, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

It should only have it's own tab if it has a separate name and different abilities. The abilities haven't been seen yet so it has to be merged. 19:12, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

The growing is a new ability, and it was just introduced so give it Oda some time to show as other new abilities. Besides, every new Clima-Tact has the same abilities of the old ones with improvement, the Mirage Tempo for example was at first one illusion, then five and then invisibility. As for the name, that is way the Conjectural Name Template was created and as soon as a name will be revealed (by the user/creator) the page will be updated accordingly. Rhavkin (talk) 19:21, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

Just leave it. It's as close to a name as we're going to get for the time being, and it's a modified Clima-Tact. Usopp designed the first two Clima-Tacts, Nami modified the third based on the previous ones and what she learned on Weatheria, and now Usopp got her this new one based on specs she gave him. 23:26, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

I count 4:3 in favor of a new tab. I'll replace the Candidate for Deletion Template with a Conjectural Name. Rhavkin (talk) 06:12, April 10, 2016 (UTC)

That's not how it works. SeaTerror (talk) 07:30, April 10, 2016 (UTC)

So how does it work? There was a disagreement, we talk about it, the majority says keep it until further information but that the name is questionable, so we keep the tab with a Conjectural Name Template. whats the problem?

Rhavkin (talk) 08:45, April 10, 2016 (UTC)

Should the page be kept, I'd like to propose renaming it to "Third Clima-Tact" because it's only new for so long Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 12:05, April 10, 2016 (UTC)

1) The discussion barely lasted 2 days. 2) If the results are like that then it goes to poll. SeaTerror (talk) 15:07, April 10, 2016 (UTC)

Sometimes two days are enough and the poll will be just like this discussion: "...the name is wrong but keep the tab with the Conjectural Name Template until further information...". Why delay it? Worst case scenario, we'll do what we did with Kyros and Thunder Soldier- separate now merge later. Rhavkin (talk) 15:22, April 10, 2016 (UTC)

It's still the Sorcery Clima-Tact as Nami said. I agree with merging this. 16:18, April 10, 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry Rhavkin, but you do need need to give people a few days to discuss. That's just the timescale our wiki works on. If this isn't resolved or in poll stages by the time the next chapter comes, only then is it time for concern.

Agreed with Kaido that if the page is kept, it should be "Third Clima-tact".

I still believe merging is the best option, under the section heading "Second Sorcery Clima-Tact". 16:42, April 10, 2016 (UTC)

I'm getting tired of the "that's what Nami called it" argument. Usopp invented it so if any, he should be the one who name it. For all we know he might have said it if Nami hasn't interrupted him and he was about to say "Century's Grandest Clima-Tact". And if the name Nami gave is relevant so change "Mini Marry 2" page to "Little Lamb" (by Brook), "Pekoms" page to "Turtlemamushi" (by Luffy) and "Sanji" page to "Bastard" (by Zoro). Rhavkin (talk) 17:10, April 10, 2016 (UTC)

Wow... that's... do you really not understand how ownership works? Even if Usopp made it, it's still Nami's. She has the naming rights.

Anyway, the line from this chapter: 私の求めた〝魔法の天候棒（ソーサリー・クリマ・タクト）”よ!!

Same kanji/kana as Sorcery Clima-Tact. There's no reason for her to say Sorcery specifically unless that's its name; otherwise she'd just say "The Clima Tact I've always wanted!!". 107.6.117.179 12:01, April 11, 2016 (UTC)

First of all, I understand how ownership works very well, but even if you call your phone a banana, its still a phone. The creator determine the name of the product, its called copyrights. And to clarify what I meant, it's not a productive discussion if the only counter argument is a naming issue, that is way the Conjectural Name Template exist. Rhavkin (talk) 12:13, April 11, 2016 (UTC)

Nami knows her weapons just as well as Usopp does. If she says it's a Sorcery Clima-Tact, then it's a sorcery Clima-Tact. It's not like she's never seen one of these before. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 12:19, April 11, 2016 (UTC)

And again with the name argument. Look, let's say for second that its really named "Sorcery Clima-Tact", its not the same weapon so the tabs shouldn't be merge. It has different creators, design, abilities, and debut, the only thing in common is the name. It deserve its own tab and you can call it "New Sorcery Clima-Tact", "Perfect Sorcery Clima-Tact" "Sorcery Clima-Tact MK. II", "Upgraded Sorcery Clima-Tact", or whatever fan based name you want until an official name is given, as long as you put a Conjectural Name Template.

Lets separate the discussion of the naming and the discussion of the merge. Now, without the naming problem, why should the two merge?

Rhavkin (talk) 13:17, April 11, 2016 (UTC)

Just to add a bit to this conversation is that Viz's English Weekly Shonen Jump confirmed the English name as New Climate Baton. -Adv193 (talk) 16:05, April 11, 2016 (UTC)

That's just Viz being Viz. SeaTerror (talk) 18:04, April 11, 2016 (UTC)

"New" isn't a type of Clima-Tact. Nami called it that because she just got it. She did call it a Sorcery Clima-Tact, which is a type of clima-tact. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 18:08, April 11, 2016 (UTC)

Even if it's not part of the name, it distinguishing it from the Sorcery. And all of that support the "using the Conjectural Name Template solution" and not the "merge solution" Rhavkin (talk) 18:20, April 11, 2016 (UTC)

VIZ says "Sorceror's Climate Baton" actually. You're looking at the wrong page. Even in the Japanese, Usopp says new "Clima-Tact", not "New Clima-Tact", and that's before Nami makes it clear it's still the Sorcery Clima-Tact/Sorceror's Climate Baton. 104.238.32.25 21:05, April 11, 2016 (UTC)

Right now I think what was said in the chapter was more like a general statement, a second example in a later chapter is likely needed before a merge or page move would be needed. I agree with Rhavkin on the idea of a Conjectural Name Template for that purpose until a second example is presented. -Adv193 (talk) 00:36, April 12, 2016 (UTC)

Why would it be "Third Clima-tact"? It's the Fourth Clima-Tact model. Original, Perfect, Sorcery, Current. In the case of Nami or Usopp naming it, it's a toss up. Usopp clearly had a name for it, but Nami called it "the Sorcery Clima Tact of her dreams." In that vein of literal interpretation Sorcery Clima-Tact becomes a separate classification from just a Clima-Tact. The Weatheria technology could mean that Sorcery Clima-Tacts function from completely different technology than the first two. This is logical, the first Clima-Tact functioned by different mechanisms, spinning and buttons. The Perfect Clima-Tact used dials to augment that. The Sorcery Clima-Tact was far more powerful than the preceding two, and didn't use dials at all. Nami clearly acquired more advanced technology than Usopp was even aware existed. The difference between the computers in Apollo 11 and the computer you're using right now, even if you're reading this on a phone. Nami's remark may also mean that she originally intended to make a Sorcery Clima-Tact like the one Usopp just made, but she lacked Usopp's technical expertise. Which would literally make it a Perfect Sorcery Clima-Tact and the original the rough draft or prototype. Coming back from that long thought based on a single line of dialogue, each modification of Nami's Clima-Tact weapon has its own tab the same as Luffy's different Gears, and Usopp's slingshots. Considering precedent for the Strawhat crew it would be weirder to merge it. It's clearly an upgrade with an all new appearance and in the coming arc likely newer more powerful abilities. It's just a matter of patience. Rayfire (talk) 16:52, April 13, 2016 (UTC)

It's been ten days and the consensus appears to be to keep it. I will rename it to "Fourth Clima-Tact" however since it's not new anymore. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 22:43, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

I think you need to count again. There are far more people who said to merge it than to keep it. SeaTerror (talk) 22:56, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

Sun Wukong reference
After looking at a picture from this chapter and seeing how huge in size the staff can take it I noticed a similarity to Sun Wukong. Does anyone think it should be noted? -Adv193 (talk) 02:08, April 9, 2016 (UTC)

Well clearly it's an homage. Kishi is a huge DragonBall fan, so I suppose him putting a power pole as we Americans say in was practically inevitable. Hell Luffy is the greatest Monkey King expy of this generation. Heck his name is Monkey and he wants to be Pirate King. So it's a multi-leveled shout out. The only thing missing is a diadem.Rayfire (talk) 04:20, April 9, 2016 (UTC)

That's a stretch. It looks like anything you'll find in Japanese culture. Hell I've seen similar used in JRPGs. SeaTerror (talk) 17:07, April 11, 2016 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Wukong#/media/File:Sun_Wukong_and_Jade_Rabbit.jpg

I also checked out the Mega Man character Buster Rod G. who is also a homage to Sun Wukong. Additionally http://mythology.wikia.com/wiki/Sun_Wukong for the Mythology wiki as I did carefully confirmed about the size changing abilities to avoid accusations of it being a Dragon Ball thing. Even if the appearance can be questioned, the size changing abilities cannot. -Adv193 (talk) 17:12, April 11, 2016 (UTC)

The Sun Wukong streachable staff is a "trope" as common as the Momotaro legend in mangas, as far as I can tell, therefore it's hardly a speculation.

You can't say something is a fact without it actually being flat out stated. SeaTerror (talk) 18:04, April 11, 2016 (UTC)

Just so you know the reason why I looked into this first was to avoid any hastiness as I was feeling nervous. It was only because it passed through my careful observations on that stuff I mentioned (which is based of solely on actual facts) that I moved on to this stage since I considered connecting the facts between two different versions important and put a lot of effort to correctly connect them.

Besides the staff reference has been used numerously in different anime, manga, and video games, it is very common as Leviathan said as if you type in Sun Wukong elongation staff into Yahoo's search engine and look at the pictures anyone can see similarities in staff design between them and what One Piece has, since One Piece does use a lot of cultural references. Plus the plot idea of Usopp's Pop Greens combined with Nami being the main staff wielder also helped made this possible. Another reference in the chapter is how long the staff got when Nami first used it, though that picture is not shown on this site. -Adv193 (talk) 00:49, April 12, 2016 (UTC)

Been a while and only ST is opposed, so add the trivia Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 22:43, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Okay, mainly because of the similarity and the reference I pointed out in the earlier note. -Adv193 (talk) 01:50, April 24, 2016 (UTC)