Forum:Fansub Page

 Note: This page contains information moved from a section of Talk:Fansub which was moved in order to make a poll.

So JSD and I was talking about this page in the chat, and I was wondering if this page is even needed. After all, it does contains websites with illegal fansubs and information on fansubs. And it is desperately in need of being updated. Which mean we would have to update this regularly. There are also probably some incorrect information on here that need to be removed. We also would have to add all of the fansubs on here, if we have to keep it, or at least, all of the famous fansubs. Plus, the scans should go in another page if we do keep it. We also have to fix the mistakes on here, which mean a lot of going though the fansubs' history....

Overall, I think we should delete this page. This isn't exactly useful in my opinion, as quite a lot of people already know where to get subbed episodes, or if they don't, all they would have to do is google "One Piece subbed" or something. 21:55, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
I think this page should stay because it is a major part in the history of One Piece, and how we've seen it. If this was a small thing, I could understand. But this is something everybody knows about and it's been the only way for most of us to even watch the series. Some information of it is needed, in my opinion, even if it is illegal. I think this page has provided use for many people, and it's not like it's the first unofficial page we have. We have a page for the Unofficial One Piece Podcast and a page about the Mythbusters, both of which acknowledge fansubs. 22:03, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

You do realize how bad piracy is and how that affects FUNimation's and Toei's business? You're seriously going to direct all the fans to pirated videos subbed by fans that pirated them? That's insanity, not to mention kinda of weak counterargument. Fansubs has nothing to with the series directly. They didn't make it, design it, voice it, or anything. They ripped off the episodes from TV when they aried and post them on YouTube and other sites. This is part of the reason the wiki is more like a fansite than an actual wiki. "...how we've seen it"? No, a wiki is a source of information ABOUT the series, not about the the illegal uploaders that subbed them or what we think of the series. They're the reason why Toei and other companies are always being threatened. Having this page containing info on illegal subbers shows that the OP Wiki is just opening the doors and encouraging others to use the subs and other sites to watch the series instead of buying the DVDs.-- Ninja Sheik  22:20, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

I think we need to do what a good wiki would do: Keep a neutral point of view. Of course we should not condone piracy. But we shouldn't disavow a large portion of how people have watched One Piece for many years. In order to be neutral, we shouldn't promote the use of any of these fansub sites in any of our articles. But we have to acknowledge that a large portion of our OP information does not come from official sources either. Let's not forget that Funimation has a LARGE gap in episodes right now from Water 7 all the way to the Sabaody Archipelago. Not to mention the fact that Funimation (and 4kids too) never translated any of the movies besides move 8. People deserve to know where others were able to watch these things. FUNimation is not our primary source for any of our articles. We do not spell names the same way Funi does, we do not value Funi's information more or less than anyone else's. We are not a wiki devoted to FUNimation's version of the anime. We are just a wiki devoted to the series in all its forms. 23:37, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

@NinjaSheik: Then what about pages like the Unofficial Podcast or the Mythbusters? Those pages, like this, exist because they indirectly play a part in the history of the series. It's moreso the fanbase than the series itself, but I'm a bit against being a wiki that completely ignores real-world things. These pages show how the series has effected the real world, and how in-turn have effected people who watched the series. This page contains valid information on how the series has been seen by people. And besides, we're the biggest One Piece encyclopedia. It's not like fansubs are completely unknown, and some people will want to learn about them. If the information for it isn't here, where else could it be?

And I am actually against pirating. In fact, I would rather fansubs never existed so FUNi and Toei can still go strong. I would rather this page stay, though, with a disclaimer explaining how illegal these things are and are not to be the main way to watch. Give it a link to the official One Piece site and to please support the official release. That way, we still have valid information about real-world things regarding the series and how we've watched it while also supporting the companies who distribute it. 23:43, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Why are you asking me about the Podcast and Mythbusters? I didn't put the links there, did I? That was there way before I came. I want the Mythbusters removed, and if you wanna remove the Podcast, that's doesn't matter to me.-- Ninja Sheik  23:48, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

I brought it up because those are controversial pages that many did not want to keep because they are unofficial. I am not against either of those pages. 23:53, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not against the Podcast, either. They have real-life connections with FUNimation, therefore they could deliver important news to the wiki.

How about you just rewrite the article just into defining what fansubs are, and that's it? That way, you keep a neutral view, and you'll be telling the readers what fansubs are. Don't mention any of the fansubbers or any of the sites, just tell them that fansubs are used. I don't like the idea, either, and I hardly think FUNimation would approve with the wiki supporting fansubs in any way and acting like a fansite rather than a wiki.-- Ninja Sheik  00:07, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

That sound good, Ninja. We can also include that fansubs are illegal too, as they are pirated. 00:17, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. :) Yeah, we should raise awareness on that and explain the situation to them and why fansubs are bad. There are a lot people who don't know what goes on within FUNimation and how it works to get the episodes. Some fans think that FUNimation has all the episodes and are just taking a long time to dub (IT BURNS ME UP WHEN I READ COMMENTS LIKE THAT! Ungrateful, ignorant, non-supporting, so-called "fans"...). If we tell them of the situation, maybe it can also help others realize that buying the DVDs actually get more episodes out in English.

Sorry if I'm thinking too far ahead about this. Since I'm an author on FF. Net and I'm friends and well acquainted with some OP authors, I help raise awareness by telling them, then asking them to spread the word. I also try to tell a ZoRo LJ Fanclub, too, but it's mostly dead, but I'm trying. Once I get my OP fic out, I'm gonna make sure people are aware of the situation. So many fans are still ignorant to what really goes in the company, and I just plain, right-out hate when they insult FUNimation because they're ignorant.-- Ninja Sheik  00:25, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

I don't really have a problem with including a section explaining that Funimation exists, and that people can watch most of the episodes there for free and legally. What I do have a problem with would be getting rid of the explanations of each fansub group. People need to know where the series came, and how they watched it in the past, and where it was coming from. I'm not a fan of piracy either, but I think people need to know where there things came from. There were many years where neither 4kids or Funimation were releasing the series, so anyone who kept up with the series then was doing it through fansubs. That includes the creators of this wiki, if my time estimates are correct. Even if it's illegal, it's important to much of the fanbase, and they should be able to come here and get the info about them all. That's what having a neutral point of view should include. 01:54, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, the fansub is unnecessary as an article, as they are NOT an official company or something like that. After all, we don't go into scanlators (and please don't get any ideas of adding such a page). 02:08, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

If we did do scanlators, it should be in the same article as fansubs, since they're essentially the same thing. 02:12, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

You guys have a scanlators page, too? Where? I never seen it before.-- Ninja Sheik  03:14, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

We don't have a page for scanlators, Ninja. Someone was merely suggesting it, which I'm strongly against it. 03:16, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I reading too quickly and misread it. And I'm totally against that, too.-- Ninja Sheik  03:33, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

I think the fansub article can be useful, especially for people who live in countries in which dubs are unavaible..

It's piracy, having this page on the wiki clearly shows that. And don't you mean "subs" not ""dubs"? What fansubbers do is illegal, and the owners and those who upload the videos can get arrested for violating copyrights. Just rewrite and just explain what faunsubs are, define the term and that's it if you want to keep a neutral view on things.-- Ninja Sheik  17:29, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

I think we should go with what Ninja said. It provide a neutral point of view for everyone. The page wouldn't be deleted, but it also won't be promoting piracy.

Exactly. That way, we can all be in agreement about the neutral point of view and we won't be bias.-- Ninja Sheik  23:22, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

No. No. No. The fansub group names should stay. They're part of the history of the subbing of the series. If you think everything on this wiki should be legal you better delete all the scanslation images and any pic that looks like it's from a pirated episode. Just no. Galaxy9000 (talk) 23:35, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

It promote piracy. Piracy is not legal. We don't even have much scans pictures on this wiki now. In fact, I think the only scans we got are for talks.

It doesn't promote piracy if we don't link the sites, but not mentioning them is just stupid. Galaxy9000 (talk) 23:39, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think the acknowledgement of names promote piracy. But if we must remove them, though, then that should be the only things to be removed. The rest of the time it should say "a fansub group" or something. 23:41, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

How is explaining what are fansubs and define the term not mentioning fansubs....? 23:52, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

The fansub groups SHOULD NOT stay. Are you serious?!You may not link to them, but just mentioning their names, their status and popularity is still promoting piracy because fans will know where to go to find them! And "subbing" from those fansub groups had no direct involvement with the series. They're pirates who ripped off the episodes from TV. If anyone is having any "subbing involvement" it's FUNimation! They are actually part of the series' history. They own the rights to them since they are partners with Toei.-- Ninja Sheik  00:23, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

We are a wiki sheik, not a "One Piece Legal Wiki". The illegal stuff is still part of the history of the series whether you like it or not. I'm waiting on you to go delete every image that we got from torrented episodes. Galaxy9000 (talk) 00:27, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Like it or not, illegality IS part of the series' history. Until Funimation can fill the ~200 episode hole in the anime series and release all the movies and OVAs, there will be no "legal" way to watch important parts of the series. People need to know where these things come from, and I don't think that just mentioning that "fansubs" exist is adequate. We should of course mention that these groups are NOT legal, and mention that Funimation IS legal. But we cannot wipe their existence away by erasing any mention of them here. 02:27, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

They have no involvement with the series whatsoever. There is no "history" for them. I'm pretty sure everyone knows about fansubs, but the wiki should not promote illegal pirates. It's wrong. Do not mention the group names, just mention what fansubs are. That's it.-- Ninja Sheik  02:54, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

They have a history to those who have gotten information from them. There are also a good deal of myths & misinterpretations that stem from fansubs. Knowing where they came from should not be some ancient knowledge that only those who were around when they were used. It should be PUBLIC knowledge that is available to everyone.

And have you honestly never seen any of the episodes/movies that Funimation hasn't gotten too yet? Have you honestly never read a chapter before Viz came out with it? If you haven't, you honestly don't know about the information (both valid and invalid) that can come from these things, especially when they're new. If you have never experienced these things, I don't think you can really say how valid they are. 03:07, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

If mentioning these fansubs promote piracy, then having articles and images on episodes 228-390 promotes piracy, as well as the latest chapters. None of these have been officially released in English countries yet. Klobis is the only one who lives in Japan, and has legal access to the series' current position. We do not. So unless Klobis is the only one who uploads images and creates articles on unreleased content, everything else is piracy, by your logic. Klobis, of course, does not only upload images or pages on the latest content, so we already "promote piracy". Congratulations, Sheik, you're now in a piracy promoting website. 06:12, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

How about you guys stop being jerks for once and start thinking like professionals? It is true that the wikis may be considered piracy. That's why everyone freaked out when the U.S Congress tried to pass SOPA and PIPA. However, even if the fans "relied" on the subs for information, it's still wrong promote it. To me, the wikis are just a source for information. And have you ever considered if the wiki IS considered piracy, then why the heck are legal companies like FUNimation trying to work out a contract with Central Wiki to get videos on here? The answer, I think, is pretty obvious. To them, we're just a source for information, nothing more and nothing less. The wiki is not harming their company, so they might not see the wikis as "pirates". Wikipedia itself can also be considered "piracy", but everyone uses it and they have their own rules and contract to follow for the web. Wikis are harmless, really. However, this page on the wiki is harmful. With a few key strokes, anyone can find these sub groups and just rely to them for episodes/scans, thus ruining Viz Media's and FUNimation's buisness.

Like I said, the wikis and Wikipedia can be considered "pirates", but they aren't promoting it. All of the wikis (besides this one) are NOT encouraging people to track down these illegal uploaders and to help ruin the company's buisness, are they? I really don't see the wikis as piracy. After all, why if FUNimation trying to work out a contract with Central Wiki to videos on this wiki, if the wiki itself is piracy? They don't, like I don't, see us as "pirates". If they had, they would've taken the wiki down a long time ago, don't you think? Instead of trying to work together with the wiki? Thw fact that they haven't is like a unspoken agreement that they approve of us.-- Ninja Sheik  16:44, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

If they approve of us as we are now, it means we don't have to worry about our fansub page. Seriously, talking about something is different from promoting it. If Wikia or another company wants us to modify this page, then we'll discuss it. Until then, I see no need to restrict ourselves because it may possibly be seen a little bit as promotion of piracy. It's information, not promotion.

Not every wiki is the same. And don't forget that a lot of wiki are large, and this is the first wiki I ever came across that promotes piracy by listing the fanusbbers' names and status. Adding information to something that has no direct involvement with the creation or legal distributions of the series is piracy. Plus, why would any wiki promote piracy?! They probably don't even know about this page. I'm going to contact FUNimation and see their thoughts about this, as you suggested, Sff9.-- Ninja Sheik  18:05, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

We are defenitly NOT promoting piracy or even the fansubbers, we're just giving information about them, just as we are doing with Toei animation, 4kids and other companies. The difference is that fansubbers aren't strictly speaking legal.

One argument I've seen seriously ignored in this discussion is the one about the episodes/movies/OVAs Funimation has never released. The opposition should address this. Fansubs are different from traditional piracy. They are not just taking Funimation's work and posting it under another name for free. They have a different translation that is entirely independent from Funimation. Currently, fansubs are only really used by people where Funimation is A) unavailable to them or B) Funimation has not released the content. and in regards to the latter, it may actually be more legal than you'd think. In the music industry, "bootlegging" is the practice of recording and releasing live performances and/or material that has been unreleased by the record company. Releasing bootlegs is actually legal, as long as they are not sold, and no money is made and the provider of the original content (ie the artist/songwritter) is ok with it. The record companies don't have the copyrights for these recordings, and they are helpless to stop them through legal action. I don't think Funimation owns the copyrights to the ENTIRE series. As far as I know, they only own the rights to the series up until the Ice Hunter arc, and only two of the movies. Since I don't think anyone else owns the rights to those holes, Fansubs of some things might be currently legal.

Also, I've stated before that this article should have a disclaimer, and that idea has also been ignored. We should state that above all else, Funimation provides, full episode legally streaming on their site, they are the only source of dubs, they are always the fastest source for new episodes, and their translations are the highest quality and are error-free (as far as typos/spelling/grammar, etc). Honestly Funimation is better than fansubs in nearly every way (the exception being HQ, which they have in the form of DVDs, but not for the simulcast episodes). If worded correctly, this entire article could actually promote Funimation rather than "piracy". If you discount the "unofficial" sources as being poor quality, the only thing left is to promote the official ones. 18:40, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

@NinjaSheik: "Adding information to something that has no direct involvement with the creation or legal distributions of the series is piracy." To put it simply: no. Giving information about racism is not necessarily racist; Giving information about religions is not necessarily religious; Giving information about humour is not necessarily funny; Giving information about piracy is not necessarily piracy. And about your last troll sentence… Well, pretty ironic, coming from someone who's always complaining about other users trolling or "being jerks".


 * How is her last sentence ironic? I don't see anything ironic about that. 20:59, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I was in school during most of the discussion, so I had to type really fast. Anyway, what I meant to say was this: Adding information to something that has no direct involvement with the creation or legal distributions of the series is PROMOTING piracy, because you are not only giving away information about the fansubbers, who are illegal uploaders, about their status, popularity, speed, their accuracy, and telling fans where they go! You even a link to Anime Crazy on the page. How is that not promoting piracy? You're encouraging fans to go and find fansubbers that upload episodes, which they are not allowed to do unless Toei or FUNimation give them permission.

And what do you mean, "last troll sentence"? I'm not trolling. I'm just saying, you're raising a good point. If FUNimation is going to be in contract with the wiki, I think they have the right to know about this page. After all, this page even links to an anime site. You did say, "If Wikia or another company wants us to modify this page, then we'll discuss it." Well, FUNimation is one company, so let's contact them. That's all I'm saying.

Ugh, whatever. I'm done. This is too fan-based for me to handle. At the very least, please remove the link to Anime Crazy.-- Ninja Sheik  20:20, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

@THT, giving information about fansubbing (names of famous fansubbers, what they subs, etc) is still the same as promoting it, in my opinion. Unless, of course, we are just defining what is fansubbing.

@JSD, You're right. FUNimation don't own the entire series. Toei do, in the matter of anime. Toei is also fighting against piracy. Therefore, the fansubs are still illegal. 20:59, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Wow Ninja, just wow. If you hate this wiki so much then just leave. This wiki isn't about what you want. Galaxy9000 (talk) 21:42, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

That applies the same for you, Gal. This wiki isn't about what you want, either. 21:44, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Cool never said it was. But Ninjasheik is constantly saying how bad this wiki is and how much she hates it.. so why stick around? Galaxy9000 (talk) 21:50, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

For myself, as well as for my friends. That's all you need to know. Just think about how many people around the world depends on the wikis, all of them for information. After all, we're not all that different Wikipedia.-- Ninja Sheik  22:11, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, we are clearly deadlocked here. Further discussion of this will probably not change that.

Where are we gonna go from here? I think at the very least, we do need to remove the links to all fansub sites (raws too), and add a description of Funimation's services. That's what I think the page needs in order to stay on here. If there's anyone who thinks the page should stay with the links provided, they should say so. I haven't seen anyone say so, so please do if you think that.

Otherwise, I propose a poll with the two options of:

1) Edit the page to remove all links to fansubbers, keep specific names and information. Add Funimation disclaimer.

2) Remove any reference to specific fansubbers and have only a short article defining "fansub".

I honestly think at this point a poll is the only way to settle this. People are getting FAR too bitter about this, on both sides. 02:11, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

I propose a third option. LEAVE THINGS AS THEY ARE. They're perfect as they are. Galaxy9000 (talk) 02:17, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, I'll add the third option of leave everything the way it is. I just hadn't heard anyone outright say that's what they wanted. I've said it all along, neutrality is best. Keep the article, get rid of the links. 02:33, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

As long as the names stay, I'm actually fine with the links being removed. Galaxy9000 (talk) 02:48, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, there should be no links—I thought there were no links and I didn't check… Of course, with links in, it looks much more like promotion. (@NinjaSheik, well, if you were not trolling, excuse me and forget what I said. It's just that I never ever implied that we should ask FUNimation's opinion about our pages. I didn't even considered you could be serious about it.)

No, what you said made sense. Think about it: FUNimation is a legal company, and own half of the rights to the series due to their contract with Toei. Both companies are fighting against piracy, mostly by tracking down anime sites like Anime Crazy in order to do so. Those subbed episodes from those illegal sites are from fansubbers, who had illegally uploaded them on the web without getting the companies' consent. Central Wiki is trying to work out a contract with FUNimation to allow this wiki to post videos, with their expressed permission, of course. Yet this page is pretty much against what FUNimation and Toei are trying to prevent. You named the fansubbers and state their accuracy, speed, their anime sites, and popularity as if you were encouraging them, and even had links to pirated videos before you took them down after I pointed them out to you guys.

Even though the majority of the users don't like the idea of of videos being posted here, nothing has been decided yet until the you guys open a Poll (since that's you seem decide things), it means that Central Wiki and FUNimation are still in negotiations. I think FUNimation has the right to know about this page, since there's still a chance they may work together with the wiki. It's only fair, isn't it? Plus, if I showed them this, it can make their jobs a lot easier and track down the illegal uploaders. Besides, piracy isn't something to joke about these days, considering the fact that Congress is still improving the SOPA bill to enforce stricter laws against piracy and copyrights infringement. Therefore, you made a good point in the matter, Sff9. Honestly, I would've showed them this either way. With the names of the fansubbers listed here, I thought it'd be nice to make FUNimation's and Toei's job easier to track down "pirates".-- Ninja Sheik  20:20, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Why in the world would you do that sheik... Do you want the episodes that Funimation doesn't have to be unavailable to fans? Do you want fans who don't want to watch subs with rushed translations to have to stoop down to that level? Galaxy9000 (talk) 21:03, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Should we move this entire section of the talk page to a forum now?

So do you support a poll on this page or not, Ninjashiek? It helps to respond to all the posts, not just the most recent ones, especially when there are questions asked of you. 01:28, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's not like I have a choice, do I? After all, Polls are your wiki's ways of making decisions. Polls for making decisions on articles, about users, the format of things, and everything else. So, whether I support the Poll or not isn't really the problem. You're going to do it, anyway, because that's just how everyone likes to decide things.-- Ninja Sheik  03:10, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

Well, you can dispute the format of the poll, which because Gal now agrees will be the 2-question format I mentioned earlier. That is unless anybody wishes to speak up for leaving the links in the page... 05:14, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

@Galaxy9000: Are you saying you support piracy? Hello, those fansubbers are the pirates. They're the ones that's ruining companies like Bandai Entertainment and Kadokawa Pictures USA. It's against the law to do this, no matter what. I understand half of the Internet is practically is piracy and everyone depends on it for their own reasons, but it's still wrong. Besides, this is a wiki, anyone can view it. I'm just directing FUNimation to it, so they can take down the people that stole their products as well as Toei's. It's the right thing to do. And what level? You meaning waiting for it to be uploaded on a LEGAL site?

@JustSomeDude: There is one problem I have about the first question. Above you posted: "Edit the page to remove all links to fansubbers, keep specific names and information. Add Funimation disclaimer."

Now, the links really need to go. Posting them on the wiki clearly shows that you guys support piracy by allowing fans an easy access to anime sites, which are illegal. Also, you said to "keep specific names". That's what I have the real problem about. No names whatsoever. They're illegal uploaders, and yet you're going to talk about their status and everything else as if you're supporting them? No, that's completely wrong. You can tell fans what fansubs are, but do not direct them to these pirates.-- Ninja Sheik  18:08, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

If you do that you're going to ruin a lot of fan's chance of watching the show. Down to that level means down to the level of shitty subs and making people wait years to watch the gap between 230-390. You make me want to go torrent all 500 episodes. The names must stay, they are part of the history of fansubs, but the links can go. Oh by the way sheik, how did you watch the episodes that Funi hasn't put out yet? If you say anything other than onepieceofficial you are a pirate. Galaxy9000 (talk) 19:02, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

I know your problem with one of the poll options, and I know exacty what you're going to vote for. I asked if you had any problems with the format. I'm gonna go ahead and make the poll now and move the page to a forum. 19:45, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

Poll
The poll is currently open. The voting will close at 20:00 October 13, 2012 (UTC). You must have been on here for at least three months and have at least 300 edits to vote on this poll.

This poll deals with a discussion regarding the page Fansub and whether or not the names of various fansubbers should be displayed in the page. This forum was moved from Talk:Fansub in order to make the poll.

How should the names of Fansubbers be dealt with?


 * Any mention of their names should be removed, and the page would become a description of what Funsubbing is.


 * The names should stay, however the links to all fansubbers should be removed.
 * 1)  19:45, September 29, 2012 (UTC)