Talk:Gecko Moria

Odd link
Why does this page have external links related to geckos? It's really uncyclopaedic.


 * To relate to the animal that Moria is themed after and to prevent people from making a stub for geckos on this site.Mugiwara Franky 18:05, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Nickname
So, is Moria's nickname "King of the Depths" or is it a mistranslation from the term "Ouka Shichibukai" (lit. "Below King Seven Armed Sea)? Yatanogarasu 20:15, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It's a mistranslation.Mugiwara Franky 07:11, 27 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I think I have the raw of the chapter... But which chapter is it? I can upload the page where his intro box is and we can compare if need be if I know the chapter no. One-Winged Hawk 09:11, 27 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Chapter 455.Mugiwara Franky 09:21, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

His theme
Please stop putting his theme is also a bat, Other than his one attack named brick bats there nothing else to say it's his theme, His name ,Transformation, horns and the fact that his collar looks like a gecko's frill pretty much say his theme is a gecko, to say other wise is speculation, the Brick bat attack is only going with the nightmare and horror theme of thriller bark--Swg66 23:56, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The gecko theme indeed seems more obvious than a bat theme. Though Moria has that one attack, has pointy ears, and long arms, they're not much of a support for a bat theme. Even when combining parts of his name to make the Japanese word for bat is a bit speculative as it's just similar sounding and not the exact word. The lizard-like neck, the way his body has the same shape as the original Godzilla when viewed from a certain position, the name, the frills, the way his Shadow Asgard form looks like a amphibious dinosaur-like creature, basically everything about him screams gecko. A bat theme maybe apart of his design, but it's not exactly the same.Mugiwara Franky 01:05, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

His Shadow Asgard just makes him larger. It doesn't make him look like a gecko at all. Drunk Samurai 04:58, 28 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, not necessarily a gecko per say but it looks definitely reptilian.


 * By the way, if there is a discussion going on, its best not to continue reverting.Mugiwara Franky 06:29, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Someone pointed out he looks like a gecko when it puffs up its neck to make itself look big. Another argument I've seen is that the Japanese used is often usedfor frogs (I can't remember the full details), as a lot of Japanese animes have a frog named gekkou (or however its spelt). I can't remember the full details. So I won't argue support for that one. One-Winged Hawk 08:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)


 * For the Japanese, Geko is an onomatopoeia for a frog's ribbit along with Kero. A frog themed witch from this manga, Soul Eater, is a fine example as she constantly makes the sound when talking. It may not be exactly a connection to the actual gecko however. Though considering Moria's Shadow Asgard form starts off as a large belly dragging creature, it's slightly there as both frogs and geckos are night-time creatures with a penchant for puffing their throats.Mugiwara Franky 16:42, 28 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh yeah, sorry now I remember your right, that was his point back on AP forums. (I didn't fully read page sorry, really not a morning person). One-Winged Hawk 07:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * He has two animal themes, gecko and bat. His name in Romaji is 'Gekkō Moria', bat being 'kōmori'. 86.32.145.143 00:35, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
 * In my opinion there's more evidence to support the arguement that his theme is bat that there is to gecko. For gecko there is his name and his Shadow's Asgard form, on which there are just too many disagreements and has now been reduced to being gecko/frog themed. For a bat theme we have his Brick Bat technique, the collar and his vampiric appearance (sharp teeth, pale skin) and as noted above the kōmori thing, things which are very definitive. I'd like to debunk the arguement of the frills, as first of all Gecko's don't have frills, the Frill-necked Lizard has. Second, it's just a piece of clothing like a scarf or an ascot, Miles Edgeworth of the Phoenix Wright series has one and it doesn't make him look any gecko/lizard like at all. So once again, I'd like to press that his theme should be Bat, not Gecko/Frog/Lizard/Godzilla.--Caraccidential


 * Reptilian attributes like frills, horns, spike-shaped hair and etc. may not be present on the gecko itself but because they're reptilian supports more of the gecko theme. For the teeth and pale skin, I can say they're reptilian on a speculative note similar to yours. Vampire bat teeth are generally super long at the sides. Reptilian teeth are more slightly more even in size. A gecko is generally characterized as a smooth skinned reptile. Moria's skin is smooth looking like a gecko's. In fact, looking at Moria more closely, one can say he resembles more of a typical Demon/Devil Lord rather than a stereotypical Vampire.


 * Looking at it, Moria kinda has a mixture of both themes. His body shape and certain stuff can be said to support a gecko theme. His vampire-like features and other certain stuff can also be said to support a bat theme. It depends on how one's look at it. For the sake of no arguments, it may be best to mention both themes. However because the gecko theme is slightly more prominent, it'll have to be written in the article as the main animal theme.Mugiwara Franky 09:00, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm against the notion of a gecko theme being more prominent, the attributes you've mentioned aren't universally recognised as reptilian traits. I thought I had made my point saying that the frills are common piece of clothing and I have yet to see a reptile with spiked hair. Does anyone in Dragonball look like a reptile because of their hairstyle? I'd have to say that the horns are more associated with demons/devils than with reptiles. The smooth skin is a strange arguement as humans have smooth skin too.


 * Other traits you've mentioned: amphibious, dinosaur-like, godzilla-like, frog-like, frills, horns. Note that they are all traits that aren't commonly associated with geckos. Things that are associated with geckos are large heads, padded toes, no teeth and big eyes. Moria has a tall head, not large, claw-like hands, large and prominent teeth, and tiny eyes compared to the rest of his body. There is just much more specific evidence that points towards bats than there is towards geckos. --Caraccidential


 * From my experience... His name can also be linked to frogs. I've seen "Gekko" in anime be linked to toads and to be honest when you look at it, his Shadow whatsit does look a big like a puffed up toad. One-Winged Hawk 22:27, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * So you're implying that his theme should be frog?--Caraccidential


 * Not really, just mentioning it. Its been pointed out before on a forum somewhere, I think it was Arlong PArk. The person got silenced though they raised a good many points about it. I can't remember the full details though... But I do want to point out in the show digimon, geckomon and shogun geckomon were frogs not geckos. This ISN'T the only example but it is the only example I can remember. One-Winged Hawk 07:01, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah, no pictures of any of them, trouble with looking up old shows. best I could do was this. They got translated to "Geckomon" because of their Japanese name. The person who I mentioned above at the time of the forum post, had jogged my memory of this show but I could not aid them as they were already being slaughtered by the Gecko theme supporters. As I said, I don't remember the translation pint he pointed out to them regarding the frog and why it crops up in anime, but it was something I noted before. One-Winged Hawk 07:10, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Moria's hair especially when in Shadow Asgard form look like the spikes on a lizard's back. Moria's frills, the ones on his back, are like Doflamongo's feathers and Kuma's bear ears.


 * While traits like large heads, padded toes, no teeth and big eyes are found in geckos, they're not the things everyone thinks of when they think of geckos. The image of a gecko is commonly a slimy nocturnal reptile that clings to walls. Very specific minute things like large heads aren't what everyone thinks when thinking about geckos. Also these traits don't have to be necessarily superimposed for a character to have a gecko themed. Simply naming a character Gecko and giving them reptilian and amphibian traits will make anyone see a gecko theme. Looking too much in the real world in this matter will probably confuse or ruin stuff.


 * Speaking about the name, the komori thing you get from combining Moria's names (コー･モリ), is slightly not even the proper Japanese word for bat. It is merely phonetically similar to Japanese word for bat (コウモリ). Considering Oda names the Shichibukai with obvious animal names rather than hidden ones, Moria being a gecko is more prominent than being a bat. If Oda intended for Moria to be prominently a bat, he would have named Moria with a more obvious name.Mugiwara Franky 00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

There is one major point though. Moria does not look like a gecko at all in shadows asgard. Drunk Samurai 00:49, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Geckos puff their necks when in danger. Likewise Moria puffed his neck when he performed Shadows Asgard, a moment when he was most in danger.Mugiwara Franky 00:59, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

He wasn't in any danger then. He was only in danger after Luffy used Gear 2 and Gear 3 on him. He doesn't look like a lizard at all. Drunk Samurai 01:05, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The danger then was that Oz was defeated, Moria was seriously hurt, and he was surrounded by a thousand or so of his victims. Zoro also said that he was doing so since it was his last resort to buy some time until the sun rose. If you look at the initial scene of Shadows Asgard, Moria is on his belly like a sprawling lizard.Mugiwara Franky 01:14, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm going to back MF on this one, at the end of the day regardless of translation notes and points about the frogs and bats and all, his name is translatable to gecko. However, maybe we should explain this on the page what we've discussed in the "Translation and Dub notes" section for future notage. One-Winged Hawk 07:23, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I have always believed Moria's name is slightly based on the japanese name of the gecko, which is Yamori. Yamori -> Moriya -> Moria. Besides the obvious "Gecko" in the name. KurowaSan 07:23, 02 December 2009 (UTC)

Defeat
I don't think it should be listed as a defeat by Luffy per-say. as although some characters state Luffy beat him, from the way it looks it seems that Gecko fell into the Mast and the mast crushed him, thus Thriller Bark beat him rather then luffy. YTOfficer01 21:35 05 March 2009

I wonder who caused that to happen? Did the mast suddenly walk around and defeat Moria? Are you actually serious? Luffy defeated him. The 100% evidence is in the manga. Drunk Samurai 23:10, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, if you look at it, the Mast became damaged by the two of them during the fighting and it inevitably fell on Moria being the larger target so there isn't 100% evidence in the manga YTOfficer01 07:06 06 March 2009


 * While the mast is the thing that laid the final blow on Moria, like you said it was a result of them battling each other. Because Luffy battled against Moria and hit him with that last Gigant Shell, Moria hit the mast and caused it to fall. So basically Luffy was the cause of the whole sequence, and the effect was the mast falling down on Moria. So by this logic, it's Luffy's victory.Mugiwara Franky 07:23, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Well is it really his win? while Luffy set the chain of events off it was only technically a victory for him which is my point. rather then the article saying luffy beat him (although I am aware several characters report this)it should say something more along the lines of Luffy assisted in the defeat of Moria YTOfficer01 07:29 06 March 2009


 * When you hit a person into a wall and the wall falls down on the person and knocks him out, the defeat of the person is attributed to you and not the wall. You used the wall to defeat the person. The wall assisted you in defeating the person. It's not the other way round. You are the cause and not the wall.


 * Likewise, Luffy is what defeated Moria. Though technically it was the falling of the mast that ultimately defeated Moria, you can't say that Luffy assisted the mast. The mast did not do anything other than fall on Moria. It was the one that assisted Luffy in defeating Moria who was already at the breaking point because of all the hits that he received from Luffy.Mugiwara Franky 07:48, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * It's like saying that Zoro had not beat anyone--Thenewjericho 07:54, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Physical Strength
Yeah, that part on him is relevant.Buh6173 16:51, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

To create shadows you need light. Darkness does not mean there are more shadows. In fact, there are less shadows in the dark then the day. This is something I always cribed about the show "Skeleton Warriors" as at one point this guy who could travel through shadows was told by the villian of the show "Its a shame its a nice bright sunny day, theres no shadows for you to pop into". The lack of shadows in the daylight has nothing to do with brightness, but rather position of the sun in the sky in fact, since shadows change their length over the course of the day and year, with winter producing the longest shadows due to the lowness of the sun. One-Winged Hawk 21:07, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

He used an artificial light for his shadows. The problem is that if sunlight strikes someone without their shadow, they will disintegrate; that will cause their shadow to be destroyed as well. Buh6173 23:42, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * That's actually a strength and not a weakness. He may not be able to use the person's shadow but he can instantly kill the person. He can still steal, he just can't use the shadows he takes.Mugiwara Franky 01:01, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Also if one states that Moria is incapable of stealing shadows in broad daylight, that is speculation that Moria's power to grab shadows and cut them off will not work in the day.Mugiwara Franky 01:15, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

It's true that if he were to pluck a shadow from someone, they'd be instantaneously killed; however, wouldn't that require some time? Besides, something tells me that only the dimmest of fighters would stand right next to Moria for him to pluck their shadows. Though as far as that goes, we'll just have to wait and see.

And no, he can't steal shadows in broad daylight. Technically he can, but the moment he does so, the owner would die, and the shadow would vanish, making it moot if his desire was to increase his own power.Buh6173 01:47, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Stealing is the act of taking something from someone.


 * Using is the act of doing something that you have in your possession.


 * Moria can steal shadows in broad daylight but he can't use them. Doing so would indeed be bad for Moria since he won't have anything to increase his power. However, why would he need to increase his power if his opponent can be killed right away. Considering the war with Whitebeard will be more on fighting than making zombies and empowering himself at the moment, instant killing is probably the most effective form of attack that Moria can provide against powerhouses like Whitebeard's crew, people who would probably still do alot of damage even if they had their shadows stolen.Mugiwara Franky 08:26, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Race
Has it been proven that Moria is actually human, if not is it acceptable to add speculation to the page?Sables 07:23, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Talk:Shichibukai
 * Kaizoku-Hime 07:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC)


 * At the very least he is a "man" by the OP world's standards. One-Winged Hawk 16:29, September 1, 2009 (UTC)

His Name?
Could somebody confirm that Mori actually means death in Japanese. I thought that it means (among other things) forest or something similiar, while in Latin Mori actually quite literally means "to die".--Uncanny Ultrabeast 08:21, April 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Confirmed. However I don't have time to edit as I'm literally going out in 5 minutes. One-Winged Hawk 09:00, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Categories
I know he uses his damned scissors as swords against Jinbei, but can we REALLY call him a swordsman? I don't see usage of swords as a relevant part of his abilities, so I deleted the category; howewer, it's debatable, I know. On a side note, after reading the spoiler for the next chapter, I suggest the mods to lock the page. Romanov D 11:19, April 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * He isn't a swordsman, good call. We shouldn't put "swordsman" on every page with the slightest hint of minty fresh steel. Example - Kuro isn't a swordsman. ;-) One-Winged Hawk 11:46, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Speculation
I'm going to take out the last bit of the last sentence in his history section. It says: "then he asked Doflamingo that if it was Sengoku who gave that order, he told him "try higher" meaning that the order maybe was from the Gourosei themselves." We should leave it at Doflamingo's quote, and get rid of the part about it maybe being from the Gourosei. It's probably what he means, but until we're sure, let's leave it out. I'll re-write it to say: "When he asked if the order came from Sengoku, Doflamingo smiled and said 'Try higher'."Gerokeymaster 21:26, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

I'm bumping this. I edited the part saying it was from the World Government. That is complete speculation. How do you know it wasn't from say a complete third party such as a pirate? SeaTerror 23:27, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

Overstating the fact
His intro blurb:

"Upon the war's end, Donquixote Doflamingo claims that the World Government has decided that Moria is too weak to continue to be a Shichibukai, and is to be stripped of his title and eliminated. "

Enemies:

"After the War at Marineford ends, Moria found himself targeted by Doflamingo and possibly the World Government. Moria is deemed to be unworthy of keeping his status as Shichibukai and Doflamingo got orders to get rid of Moria and make it seem like he died during the war. "

Shichibukai:

"After the War he gets into a fight with Doflamingo, after Doflamingo was ordered to kill him. He is seen on the ground bleeding while Doflamingo laughs at him and says too weak to be a Shichibukai and it would be better for it to look like he died honorably in the War. When Moria asked if Sengoku ordered his death, Doflamingo smiled and said "Try higher". "

Abilities and Power:

"However, after the war against Whitebeard, Doflamingo claims that the government has deemed Moria too weak to continue to bear the title of Shichibukai, and is better off to be eliminated."

Post-War Arc:

"He is last seen coughing up blood after being attacked by Doflamingo and a group of Pacifista because the World Government thinks he has become too weak to remain a Shichibukai, and it would be better for it to seem like he was killed in the war. When Moria asks if the order is from Sengoku, Doflamingo simply smiles and says "Try higher", suggesting that he might have been ordered to do so by the Gorousei."

Does this REALLY need to be mentioned so many times? I mean, I found it exciting as well, but how many times does it need to be mentioned on one page?121.223.98.137 01:03, April 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * When you see something like that which is obviously incorrect it is better to change it yourself than waiting for others to do it. Your question as a high risk of being missed and the article not changed. Just enter a comment on the summary edit section to explain your change. Kdom 08:20, April 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * The intro bit shouldn't retell the story, its a introduction, not a retelling. One-Winged Hawk 08:22, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

Category
Isn't he a presumed deceased (as Doflamingo said)? Shouldn't we add that category? --Meganoide 11:10, September 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's unconfirmed at this point whether or not he's dead yet. While it is true Doflamingo claims to have offed him, Perona (and I believe Mihawk) say(s) he's still out there.  Unless we get a consensus from the characters or confirmation from Oda, it's still up in the air. Bon-boy and Croco-boy 04:26, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

Zombies creation
How can Moria create zombies apparently without stealing shadows (in Marineford, chapter 558)? Aoshi shigamori 11:44, September 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Probably Moria brought and hid his zombies before the war even had started. If you pay close attention you'll notice that some of those zombies were also seen back in Thriller Bark. Logically Moria had already gathered and implanted new shadows to animate his zombies as part of his preparations for the war. There is also a notable difference in their appearance this time, being that the zombies now wear Marine uniforms to signify Moria's allegiance with them. MasterDeva 16:55, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

Shouldn't Moria's history include a picture of him being defeated by Jinbei/Jimbei?
Should not Gecko Moria's history include a picture of him being punched by Jimbei/Jinbei and effectively deflating like a balloon? Iamnofool 23:25, September 25, 2010 (UTC)