Talk:World Noble

If you wan't a move,discus and PROVE (no rhyme intended) New Babylon 16:26, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It seemed from the spoiler that all the nobles were being called Tenryuubito, so taht's why I thought it was alright now. -StrangerAtaru 22:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Its like calling a Baron a "Lord" it seems. Their the same,but "World NOBLE" actualy display their status as descendants of royalty ,as well as being mentioned first in 496 .Also "dragon people" doesn't kinda cover what they are,so I guess it could be a honorific. Question,though.When looking through the scans,Shalulia is not called "Shalulia Sei",but "Shalulia Guu"-can someone say what that means?New Babylon 22:12, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Original Japaneese for "World Noble"
Anyone have a clue on what the original japaneese form of the term is ?

New Babylon 09:31, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

This is crazy... We're slipping away from our decision to use "Japanese" over "English". Its about time we brought this to a close and moved the article. I think its hung on old enough; If this was in Japanese, what would the name be? And is "World Noble" the correct and TRUE translation or a "common" used word. One-Winged Hawk 19:09, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

It should be Tenryuubito since that is the original Japanese name. Drunk Samurai 19:26, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Heavenly
There is any relation between the Heavenly Dragon Folks(天竜人) and the Four Heavenly Kings(四天王)?--201.24.166.123 21:49, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I would think that the Four Heavenly Kings are more represented by the Yonko then by the "Celestial Dragons" and that the terms like "Dragon" are referential to the Japanese Throne, wherein the First Emperor Jimmu is supposedly the grandson of Otohime, the daughter of the God of the Sea. When her husband Hoori looks in on after she gives birth to their son, her true form as a dragon is revealed. Hence, Gods = Dragons = Royalty QED DoctorRoberts (talk) 05:35, October 28, 2015 (UTC)

Noble vs. World Noble
With the release of chapter 585 (see link below), I think this should be addressed before it becomes a major issue (which it very well may become, sooner or later). Do you think there is a difference b/w a noble and a world noble. World nobles supposedly live in the "Holy Land". However, the Goa kingdom is located in the east blue. Are the nobles that live here of the same status (they certainly have the attitude of a world noble), or do you think they are something else (like maybe extended family). In chapter 584, Dadan stated a world noble would be visiting and that was big news. If nobles live there already it shouldn't be that big a deal unless there is a difference. Read the new chapter and you'll see why this could lead to a potential edit war, so let's tackle this issue now.   --Kingluffy1 22:13, May 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * From what can be interpreted, the nobles in the Goa Kingdom have the same attitude as the World Nobles but that doesn't necessarily mean right away that they are of the same status. Anyone in a high position can have such a attitude whether they be a coal miner's boss or the world leader. There's also the word that Sabo used to described himself. From what was explained by a translator, the Japanese word he used for himself is different than the Japanese word for the World Nobles. Both words translate as noble in English but are different in Japanese. Not 100% sure of this though.


 * As far as what has been revealed, the Goa Kingdom nobles are probably of the same status ad the nobility of Arabasta or Drum. They're high in the food chain but nothing so far suggests that they're as high as the World Noble. As for the Tenryubito that was supposedly visiting, no one so far has yet been identified to be that person.Mugiwara Franky 12:30, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Dragon, Dragon, Dragon!
How has it been this long and no one has posted anything about Dragons blood, Luffy's blood or Garps blood especially that we have proof that he is in fact of noble blood as of the last chapter. I'm not a saying a big deal has to be made of it but it is big news if you ask me.


 * I think he only said he's from Goa Kingdom. Not that he's a noble. YazzyDream 01:00, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

4th Noble
We need to add the new guy, saint J-something with the square-shaped helmet to the list of known World Nobles. If anyone has either the raw pictures or can find a sub other than mangastream that's out already, it'd be great if they could add him...Gerokeymaster 20:43, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

Article Name
Why is this the only article on the wikia that uses the translated name instead of the Japanese name? SeaTerror 21:15, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Doflamingo
Should we add Doflamingo, Vivi, Titi and Cobra to this list? Or only Doffy? Hawkinz340 (talk) 09:48, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

None of them. The Nefertari family are explicitly not World Nobles (their ancestors refused to go to Mariejois 800 years ago), and Doflamingo's circumstances haven't been fully revealed yet. There's been a lot of discussion on Arlong Forums about the issue, but in the end it boils down to the fact that Doflamingo hasn't been treated like a World Noble throughout the series, so until we get direct confirmation it's best to wait. 10:28, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

Also should we make articles about the families because they were officially named? 10:35, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

I think we should. 10:37, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

The definition of World Noble is "descendants of the Twenty Kings who established what is now known as the World Government" not "those who lived at Marijoa". The Nefertari founded the world government, so they are world nobles. They simply didn't leave their country. Although I too found weird to call vivi or dofla world nobles now.

I don't think we have to create the family pages, we can easily describe them in the world noble (this) page.


 * I'm going to trust Aohige's summary of that page over MangaPanda's, in which he said that by not going to Mariejois the Nefertaris didn't become World Nobles (even though they were one of the twenty families that created the WG). Besides, if you assume that they are World Nobles, then it introduces massive plot holes - the WG's failure to assist Alabasta during the civil war, and the fact that it would mean Wapol would have hit a World Noble without consequence at the Reverie. 12:21, September 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh, I didn't think of that. Thanks for the clarification. But what about Doffy? He did go to Mariejois(I mean his family) and you can't just say he isn't a World Noble just because he didn't act like on. I mean, yeah, people hit him and didn't get the wrath of an Admiral, but he has the family name of the Donquixote Family so even if he is adopted or something( I'm referring to his picture as a child, that shows him all grundgy) he should still be called a Celestial Dragon, and that was something confirmed in this chapter. Also, he got direct help from the Gorosei(CP-0) and he even fooled the Marines that he wasn't a Shichibukai, which means he had help from the Gorosei. I don't think they would help just anybody. Hawkinz340 (talk) 13:07, September 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm just saying stick to what we know, and don't extrapolate. At the end of Chapter 712 Law hypothesized that he had a connection with the CDs, but Doflamingo said things "went deeper than that" (or something along those lines). We know from this chapter that the descendants of the Donquixote family are CDs, but we don't know about the extra thing Dofla was referring to, which is why I personally think it would be better to wait a bit before doing a major rewrite of the page to include Doflamingo and change things like "all of the world nobles" to "all of the world nobles except Doflamingo" (given that he is completely different from all the ones we've seen so far in every single way). 13:59, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

I'm OK with that. Hawkinz340 (talk) 14:10, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

Doflamingo is a World Noble. Stick to the definition. We don't need additional pages. 12:02, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

Wait for confirmation about most of it, but make the family pages. No reason not to make them, since we make all other named family pages. 16:57, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

We have confirmation. This and CP-0 are more than enough. 17:12, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

It hasn't been specifically stated, and Zodiaque made some very good points, so I'm going with what he said. Makes zero sense to speculate and then have to maybe fix things later, so it's always best to wait. 17:15, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

I thought we've been over this. Not everything is going to be stated that plainly for us. He belongs to a World Noble family, ergo he is a World Noble, at the very least by birthright if not completely by status. 17:22, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but Zodiaque's point about Doflamingo saying "things go deeper then that", in regards to Law's question about being a celestial dragon. As I said, there's no reason to speculate and add things just for the fun of it, when it's just better to wait until more details are revealed, and in my opinion, we don't know enough at this time. 17:29, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

"At the end of Chapter 712 Law hypothesized that he had a connection with the CDs, but Doflamingo said things went deeper than that": his family are world nobles. I thought the answer is simply that, I cannot see any other meaning.

Deeper or not, his family was one of the original nineteen that became the World Nobles. That makes him one regardless of his cryptic response. 15:43, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

We consider him as a world noble until he says otherwise. 19:38, September 28, 2013 (UTC)

It has been made abundantly clear his status. Homing, humble and believing that he (and the other CDs) were not considered "Gods" and relinquished his status as a World Noble. The other World Nobles treated this as a traitorous betrayal and shunned him forever more, giving no aid when he was persecuted and attacked by the vengeful people of North Blue. Donquixote had hoped by killing his father, he could earn his status as a World Noble, but they refused to let him be one of them, since the Doflamingos were a "family of traitors." However, he somehow had discovered the "National Treasure," information powerful enough that they begrudgingly gave him the title of a Shichibukai, a status which for most tends to give them cart-blanche unless they disobey or betray the trust of the Marines (or higher authorities)

DoctorRoberts (talk) 05:49, October 28, 2015 (UTC)

Tenryubito
I say we move World Nobles to Tenryubito

Joekido (talk) 00:04, October 18, 2014 (UTC)

We're an English Wiki. 00:46, October 18, 2014 (UTC)

Then by that logic we should move Shichibukai to Seven Warlords of the sea

Joekido (talk) 01:00, October 18, 2014 (UTC)

What Joekido said. Also there's no rule against using redirects in general. There's only a rule about specific redirects. SeaTerror (talk) 01:30, October 18, 2014 (UTC)

I'm for Tenryubito. First off it helps differentiate "Noble" from "World Noble", something that has confused me several times over the years. Second, I can't seem to find where the phrase "World Noble" came from. There's no citation for its use, and it's not in the infobox as an english name. If there's not source for it, it's a conjectural title. We could argue for Celestial Dragon vs. Tenryubito, but unless there's more evidence to make it more viable, World Noble should be out. 02:58, October 18, 2014 (UTC)

If my understanding is correct, Celestial Dragon is the more literal translation while World Noble is a more derived translation. We try to have things in English as much as possible, except when the exact translation can be placed under heavy debate, such as Shichibukai. 04:02, October 18, 2014 (UTC)

World Noble isn't conjectural. The term was first mentioned in the last panel of Chapter 496. Look at Donquixote Homing's infobox picture for example: the top line says 世界貴族 (天竜人), which translates to World Noble (Celestial Dragon). The only thing that needs to be changed is changing the VIZ/English name" to World Noble, since they're two separate terms for the same people. 05:35, October 18, 2014 (UTC)

I support World Noble/Celestial Dragon. If we use Tenryubito or Sekai Kizoku, we'd might as well go with Sekai Seifu and Kaigun. The main term here is World Noble, Celestial Dragon is secondary. 05:44, October 18, 2014 (UTC)

"We try to have things in English as much as possible, except when the exact translation can be placed under heavy debate, such as Shichibukai." That isn't true at all. The Wiki chose to use Japanese names over English names years ago. Also Yonkou. SeaTerror (talk) 07:05, October 18, 2014 (UTC)

All I can see from the Yonko talk page is that in three years you haven't become any less stubborn. Even Klobis thought that should have been translated. 08:36, October 18, 2014 (UTC)

No reason to use Japanese here, since the translation gets the meaning across perfectly. Regarding which term to use, "World Noble" seems like the more proper/official one, while "Celestial Dragon" is what they're usually called by common people. For example, Queen Otohime referred to them as World Nobles, while the citizens called them Celestial Dragons. So yeah, I agree with Zodiaque and Yata on this. 16:32, October 18, 2014 (UTC)

"That isn't true at all. The Wiki chose to use Japanese names over English names years ago." Just in case you lose your blindness, Zodiaque. If they are called Celestial Dragons then we should use Tenryubito in the articles at the very least since we use Japanese. Also I'm pretty sure that what Yata has mentioned have all been actually romanized by Oda. We would never use Kaigun because Marines have always been romanized in the manga. SeaTerror (talk) 17:45, October 18, 2014 (UTC)

Since we're talking about a type of people, enlighten me as to when giants, dwarves, fishmen, merfolk, longarms, longlegs and snakenecks were all romanized. 18:13, October 18, 2014 (UTC)

Well, all of those were written in English on the slave price list from the Human Auction House. Until then, my guess would be that since "humans" was translated rather than kept as ningen (for obvious reasons), it only made sense to translate the other groups as well. 20:43, October 18, 2014 (UTC)

I think Oda wrote out fishman/fishmen in English at one point before that too. SeaTerror (talk) 20:59, October 18, 2014 (UTC)

The price list was in Japanese, DP. Here. 21:54, October 18, 2014 (UTC)

Well, I don't see "ningen" in English. It was written in kanji. Shichibukai is definitely a huge conflict, Seven Warlords, Seven Worlds, Seven Military Seas... But I kinda suggest we move Yonko to Four Emperors now. 22:24, October 18, 2014 (UTC)

Names are not supposed to be translated, Yata. SeaTerror (talk) 01:39, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

Names are not the same as titles. It's the reason we use Admiral Kizaru and not Taisho Yellow Monkey. 01:45, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

Technically, Four Emperors and Three Admiral are the same league, as they both denote an individual who bears the title of "emperor" or "admiral". 01:48, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but admiral is lot more easily translated than 4 emperors. Besides, this is the wrong place to discuss moving it. 01:55, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

A title is a name. Shichibukai also applies. But yeah it doesn't belong here. SeaTerror (talk) 03:59, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

A title is not a name. This is why we agreed to remove "Don" from Krieg and Chinjao, etc. You might not think so ST, but the wiki agreed in those cases that titles are not part of names. 05:29, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

Actually it is. In that case Yonkou is what they are known as which is both a name and a title. Shichibukai is exactly the same as that. SeaTerror (talk) 07:06, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

So, for the record, of the list I posted earlier I can't recall any time any of them were romanized, although you're free to prove me wrong. And as far as I can recall the Demon Guards weren't romanized either, which are probably the most closest example to the Celestial Dragons. You haven't been kicking up a fuss over there saying they should be Gokusotsuju.

So it's pretty clear that the "rule" you've been talking about doesn't exist, and that everything is decided on a case by case basis. Do you have any compelling arguments as to why "Tenryubito" should be used instead of the perfectly understandable and commonly used "Celestial Dragons"? 14:03, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

We can leave the article at World Noble but only change Celestial Dragon to Tenryubito. Also One Piece Encyclopedia:Japanese Vs English names SeaTerror (talk) 16:35, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

That page has to do with the policy of not following 4Kids and VIZ's spellings in the case of characters' names. It has nothing to do with this discussion. And I still really want to know whether you think having Demon Guards untranslated is a problem, since it's pretty much the same situation. 16:50, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

You obviously didn't read the page. It was about Japanese vs English in general. Demon Guards isn't the same thing since it's not like Yonkou or Shichibukai. Though if you want to move it to Japanese I won't stop you. SeaTerror (talk) 17:08, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

The page seems to mostly just talk about the official English releases like dubs and the Viz manga. The reasoning section is even called "Why choose Japanese names over English dub names?" But anyway, how is "Demon Guards" (Gokusotsuju) different? It's a name of a group and can also be used as a title like Yonko. 18:30, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

The page is supposed to be for everything. It isn't just about English names. If it was then that page is wrong and we would also have to move every single other page on the wiki to English names. Actually it is just what they are called in the prison. Yonkou is an actual title unlike Demon Guards. SeaTerror (talk) 18:39, October 19, 2014 (UTC)

Poll Discussion
Alright, this going nowhere. So I'm making a poll. Starts Wednesday, same as the other poll I just made today. 2 Weeks long. 3 options, World Noble, Tenryubito, and Celestial Dragon. Post here if you have any problems with the format. 01:00, November 15, 2014 (UTC)

Main issue's English vs Japanese, so to prevent vote-splitting from a 3-option poll might want to make it question + sub-question: English vs Japanese, then World Noble vs Celestial Dragon or Sekai Kizoku vs Tenryubito. 04:15, November 15, 2014 (UTC)

Good point, I've changed the poll. 08:56, November 15, 2014 (UTC)

The wording of the poll is odd. "How we should translate "World Noble?". It makes it sound like they're all just different translations for the same word, when in fact we're talking about two different terms (Sekai Kizoku/World Noble and Tenryubito/Celestial Dragon)

And if this is about the title of the page, then Celestial Dragon/Tenryubito shouldn't even be an option. As explained in the discussion above, the official term is World Noble/Sekai Kizoku. Naming the page "Celestial Dragon" would be like naming the Shichibukai page "Government Dog" or something. 11:54, November 15, 2014 (UTC)

Oh right. Looking back over the discussion, it seems everyone's fine with leaving World Noble as the title, and ST just wants to change Celestial Dragon across the wiki to Tenryubito, so this isn't really the poll he (or anyone) wants. 14:59, November 15, 2014 (UTC)

If that's the case, then I'll adapt the poll. Unless there's actually a clear majority for the issue. 19:56, November 17, 2014 (UTC)

It's 6-2, assuming you support "Celestial Dragon". I'd say that's a clear majority. 20:38, November 17, 2014 (UTC)

My vote is a proteting 'Celestial Dragon', mainly because Tenryubito is also wrong: gotta have the ū for Tenryūbito (or just Tenryuubito, I guess...). Realistically, though, Celestial Dragon and World Noble are both good.75.111.62.4 20:51, November 17, 2014 (UTC)