Forum:RAW Japanese Manga Images

I suggest that from now on, when we use manga images, we use the direct Japanese RAW ones, like the File:Buster call atacking.jpg that I just uploaded. That means: the image is not altered, the speech bubbles are not emptied out. I have several reasons that I like all of you to consider before you voice your opinion:
 * 1) Another Wikia, Narutopedia, also uses RAW images until a good anime one comes out. A good example, not comparing ourselves to it.
 * 2) If we use scanlations, then any mistranslations may cause the speech bubble to convey the wrong message. That's why we usually blank them out. However, this is visually an eyesore.
 * 3) By using an undiluted RAW and keeping the original Japanese speech, we can maintain the original language without making all those ugly blank speech bubbles or messed up scanlation dilutions.
 * 4) All the anime pictures do NOT have English subs in them, so why should the manga? It's all just like watermark or fanart, as none of these are official. In fact, I see emptying speech bubbles or using unofficial English speech bubbles as a variation of fanart.
 * 5) The Japanese RAW is the essence of a JAPANESE manga, not some edited English scanlation, or some speechless pictures.
 * 6) For god's sake, those blank speech bubbles look like they are having a writer's block or something!

Please voice your opinions below. Yatanogarasu 21:31, March 4, 2011 (UTC)

Allow me to demonstrate:

Yatanogarasu 21:43, March 4, 2011 (UTC)

Opinions and Discussion
Hm, I don't particularly think raws are the only way to go. And sometimes a scanalation may be needed to explain a topic. And it should be the english translated version, because this is an Englsih wiki. I'm thinking specifically of file:Grand line.jpg image. 21:34, March 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, but if we use Japanese RAW, and then a thumbnail to caption what the characters are saying, it works just as well. Like this demonstration. Yatanogarasu 21:43, March 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * I mean, all the cover images are now in Japanese RAW, no dilutions, no alterations. And the title and the mini-story titles are captioned in the infobox and somewhere visible in the article. Yatanogarasu 21:50, March 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * Besides, English speech bubbles are similar to watermarks or fanart, and we do NOT allow watermarks in either manga nor anime pictures. Besides, all of our anime pictures do NOT have English sub lines in them. Yatanogarasu 21:52, March 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * What do you mean, "english speech bubbles are similar to watermarks or fanart"? That just... sounds like a flimsy excuse. In the case I mentioned the thumbnail would be incredibly long, when there's just no need for that. File:Alliance.jpg is fine that way because you're explaining what's happening in the picture. file:Grand line.jpg is showing a direct quote, of the character explaining something, which is simple and effective. This whole matter doesn't seem like something that needs a strict rule to go by, but rather a case by case basis.
 * Chapter covers can be raw, I'm all for that. But for others... Raw is fine, but I also don't think it matters much whether the speech balloons are cleared out. Personally I think it gives more focus to the drawings themselves when they are, so that captions can be succinct and to the point.
 * Well raw can cause somewhat of an inconscistency since for example in Mangahead.com, the people claim to be uploading the raw Japanese version, but it's actually in chinese or something for the first few days or so, and so people may accidently upload those versions. Also, I don't really have a problem with the blank speech bubbles much... Don't ask about the english version, I agree for both sides. I kinda agree with YD on this one. 22:34, March 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, well, once the official Japanese comes out, we can update from thereon. And think of it this way: I take an image, write my personal translation on it, just like Sleepyfan or Mangahead, and upload it. Do you trust my accuracy anymore than anyone else? An original Japanese is the most accurate, while blanking it, I don't understand what the hell they are saying. And it looks terrible, blank spots, like a writer's block or that they are moving their mouths without speaking. Yatanogarasu 23:28, March 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Why not the blank speech bubbles then?? As for the official Japanese, I know we know what we're doing, but some other new guys might upload the chinese versions which is a pain to delete and re-upload. Also, I bet nobody reads the Image guidelines close enough so... even if this decision is made official, I'm pretty sure people would still keep on uploadin' english scans... 23:36, March 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Why not the blank speech bubbles then?? As for the official Japanese, I know we know what we're doing, but some other new guys might upload the chinese versions which is a pain to delete and re-upload. Also, I bet nobody reads the Image guidelines close enough so... even if this decision is made official, I'm pretty sure people would still keep on uploadin' english scans... 23:36, March 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Why not the blank speech bubbles then?? As for the official Japanese, I know we know what we're doing, but some other new guys might upload the chinese versions which is a pain to delete and re-upload. Also, I bet nobody reads the Image guidelines close enough so... even if this decision is made official, I'm pretty sure people would still keep on uploadin' english scans... 23:36, March 4, 2011 (UTC)

That's why we're here, to upload the official. And I keep saying: blanked out speech bubbles are eyesores, what the hell are they saying? I mean, read what I wrote up there, blanked out is like a writer's block or something. Like, me deleting a portion of the picture, leaving a large blank spot or something. Yatanogarasu 23:44, March 4, 2011 (UTC)

Lol no need to get hot, I read it, I read it. But as YD said, as long as we can see the drawing, I think it's fine. The words can pretty much be explained in the text like you said for the Japanese text, can it not? 23:55, March 4, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, but what if I erase all the background around Hordy and Decken in the picture above? Just the two shaking hands, nothing else matters, that's how the blanked out speech bubbles seem, erasing a portion of the picture that captures the essence of the manga panel. Yatanogarasu 00:02, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

Just a reminder, you all realize that this wikia (and several others) are constantly in danger of getting severe copyright problems, right? While the chance for that to happen might be minimal, if someone of importance approaches the main wikia, it's over. There will be no friendly negotiation or plea to remove the pictures or other content, everything will be simply deleted. They could care less if they lose one branch out of a hundred if they could get into trouble.

What I want to say is: while cleared out speech bubbles might be ugly, they are the best and safest way to offer visual information (and might even "prevent" issues with copyright holders). I think we should not take this risk, even if it is a small one. Especially not for images that are replaced in the future anyway. And before someone argues about the anime pictures, sure the above is true for them as well, but it is a difference if you use a screenshot out of several hundred pictures used in an episode, or half a page of a mere 18 site long manga chapter. It is a good idea to use the raw scans, but the bubbles need to stay empty :( 00:06, March 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * They shouldn't crib about LQ images, if need be we can go that way. Also, keeping images down to a minium. We don't upload enough to warrent attention at the moment because we're not uploading whole pages. This would be a big "no" issue if the whole page goes up. This is why I also roam pages and clean out access images every so often though, to make sure we're not overdoing it. One-Winged Hawk 00:39, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

I think it doesn't matter that much wether we use RAW Japanese or just Scanlated English, as long as everything is exactly the same. (Not half RAW and other half SL) Yountoryuu 00:12, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

Sure enough, Jinbe has a point. If you haven't noticed, there may be quite a few people on the wikia itself that are somewhat related to the author of the story. I don't know bout' here, but in the Case Closed wikia (though it's small and under construction in a way) there's me who has a friend who's brother's cousin or something is the author of the series. I'm on the better side since I don't personally know the author but.. there's a high possibility someone related to the copyright stuff can find the wikia. OP wikia is first on line if you look characters/etc. up on google, after all. We should stay on the safe side here, really. Now I think I really recommend blank speech bubbles. 00:32, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

The current rules do not say we must use anime OR manga. I'm fine with how this goes, and to change it requires preposal of rewrite. I would not be happy if it all went manga though, thats my personnel opinion, as the manga doesn't always work out right and can be a little confusing. I don't go for anime "because its pretty" but if it suits it. Also, no one has bothered taking note that manga and anime do not have a pereference in the current Image Guidelines anyway, and traditionally the wikia has always used anime over manga. Further more, the amount of images that are required to be replaced makes me question if this is uness. workload. Also, text on raws can be distracting and make the image full of stuff we don't ness. need in the image "a image is a demostration" afterall.

Basically, use whatever you feel is superor, there is no pereferences and I'm glad that is the case. However, I simply do not understand why even when the manga is a better choice in some cases, that we do not use it. And note, once again; scanalation translations are not "raw" which mean tracking down RAWs that may possibly even no longer exist. Actually I note in particular regard to one issue here, the empty speech bubbles were done when quality scans were few and far between, which meant to get HQ we had scanalation groups. To keep it neutral and stop the text on the page conflicting with the text in th picture due a possible translation error it was considered by myself and a few others as a safe way to use the images. It also kept the wikia neutral in regards to the scanalation groups. Theres one more reason, but I will not say why because its something that needs to be kept behind closed doors.

Thats all I have to note and I do question why the fuss all the time. You want to use manga? Go ahead, but you will always get reverting and image wars because not all of it is preferred. I do hate it when every single episode people rush to replace the manga images, their not always on par. Its suppose to be left to editor judgement... I think its "whatever looks prettiest" sometimes takes over too much thought. :-/ One-Winged Hawk 00:36, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

Edit conflict (hate them). Copyright? The fact that we're using these images to begin with is already a copyright infringement, doesn't matter what version we use. In fact, we use modified versions, which is even worse, taking someone else's work and changing it slightly to make it ours, that's pretty much plagiarism. By using the original RAW, we lower our offense by using non-adulterated works, and easier to reference to Oda and the company that prints the pics, and we can exclude the scanlators and unofficial translators. Best of all, we won't modify (and plagiarize) any of the manga pics. Yatanogarasu 00:44, March 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * You referring to what must be kept behind doors? No, its a little more then that, thats all I can say.


 * Actually, while we're on the subject of copyright law, what we do confines within the law, we're not uploading enough to replace the manga itself from sale like scanning groups do and we're doing this for no profit back. We acknolwedge the copyright holders and it will be fine. Nothing the wikia does here is breaking the rules, now if you upload an entire page, that would be considered a step too far. One frame from one chapter = fine, more then that and its start looking bad... And even "altering" it does not break the rules.


 * Take note, the argument over using RAWS is what caused the fallout of the tabbing, because user perference isn't a grounds for changing rules. In this case, nothing we do is breaking the copyright rules seriously and everything is kept within reason. In fact, I can ensure you, RAWs are actually big copyright issue breakers more so then altered images, bigger then you think. And altered images are only a cause for an alarm when they are used to for reasons against the license, i.e. to launch an attack on a peer group or personnel attack on an individual. It actually goes on all the time thus its a minor issue.


 * I think some of what you are saying though Yan is just paranioa or propreganda. This has been circling the anime/manga related wikias for a while now, but its just driven by individuals wanting to force a change. I am aware of this because its caught my attention elsewhere before. One-Winged Hawk 00:55, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

Well here's a question-- where'd you find such an HQ raw scan? I only tend to find real bad quality pics for raws... 00:47, March 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * - the first one gives tankoban raw, the second one is magazine ones (the not yet serialized chapters). Yatanogarasu 00:56, March 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * ACK!!! YAN DON'T POST THOSE! We can get into trouble for that! So many wikias post links to those kind of sites, but we're not allowed! Incrediable, we're on the subject of copyright and you do THAT. Don't do that again Yan. Find a way to pass it privately to the reciever.^_- One-Winged Hawk 00:59, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

Well, excuse me, didn't know. But on the subject, I saw several Chapter articles that have an entire page uploaded onto them. Chapter 12 is one of them (in the Long Summary section): this image, and I don't feel like searching all 616 chapters to find all of them. How should we deal with those? Yatanogarasu 01:03, March 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Not to mention, this file is pretty much a full page. Yatanogarasu 01:05, March 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * They shoudln't have an entire page, I cribbed about this previously a few years back, but no one took notice... They even went up after Image Guidelines were written and take note, MF wasn't maintaining the images on the wikia well at the time. I hate to use excuses, but it was hard to find one person prepared to edit the chapter pages, I don't think anyone put their foot down for that reason when it was going on. But no, they should be there. I'll leave that to others to decide their fate, I sort of washed my hands over chapters due to annoyance for a few years when I was left to edit them myself at a lackbuster rate of success. :-( One-Winged Hawk 01:07, March 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * We can assign things... like you do 1~15, He does 16~30, I do 31~45, she does 46~60.. that kinda stuff? 01:06, March 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * What is within the law and what not will be decided individually in cases of copyright violation, there is no magic line we can avoid to cross, unfortunately. If the copyright holders deem this wikia guilty - be it for whatever reason - it will be deleted. Or do you think the main wikia would hesitate and defend this particular wikia? No way.
 * All we can do is, as you said One-Winged Hawk, keep it low and pray. And yes, the filled speech bubbles offer additional content that is usually only available in the manga. Imagine it as the next step of keeping things secure: first we don't offer the full pages, second we don't offer the original text content, third we redirect to the copyright holders. Of course this is no guarantee, but at least an effort to keep the chance of possible violation to a minimum. Oh, and only because the contributers here "work" for free doesn't make the wikia itself a non-profit organisation...the adds here and there actually proof that the opposite is the case.
 * Anyway, I actually don't think we will get problems, but the chance is there and the price we would have to pay is massive. This is just my rational reason regarding the matter and why I think we should blank the bubbles.
 * Oh, and you better completely remove this line and all talk about the links Angel/Yata, it sure makes people curious what you are talking about (and the history is still available) 01:36, March 5, 2011 (UTC).
 * All we can do is, as you said One-Winged Hawk, keep it low and pray. And yes, the filled speech bubbles offer additional content that is usually only available in the manga. Imagine it as the next step of keeping things secure: first we don't offer the full pages, second we don't offer the original text content, third we redirect to the copyright holders. Of course this is no guarantee, but at least an effort to keep the chance of possible violation to a minimum. Oh, and only because the contributers here "work" for free doesn't make the wikia itself a non-profit organisation...the adds here and there actually proof that the opposite is the case.
 * Anyway, I actually don't think we will get problems, but the chance is there and the price we would have to pay is massive. This is just my rational reason regarding the matter and why I think we should blank the bubbles.
 * Oh, and you better completely remove this line and all talk about the links Angel/Yata, it sure makes people curious what you are talking about (and the history is still available) 01:36, March 5, 2011 (UTC).
 * Oh, and you better completely remove this line and all talk about the links Angel/Yata, it sure makes people curious what you are talking about (and the history is still available) 01:36, March 5, 2011 (UTC).

Ok... I think everyone's a bit off topic. Look, here's another example of what a terrible idea using only raws would be:

Scanlation images are better usually. SeaTerror 04:42, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

Like someone else said here, I think the main purpose of the images on this wikia is to describe a scene, a place, a character or give an example of an action, an ability or a power, so I vote for the "better quality" rule too. Following this, usually scans are better than raws. For the text, I agree that we shouldn't use English (fan translations) text, so we must blanked out the bubbles speech in the scans. If someone thinks that a blank bubble is "ugly" than we must decide which is uglier, a HQ image with a blank bubble or a low-quality image with Japanese text? I think is better an HQ image, well, maybe I can agree that one with 6 blank bubbles is not so good but I don't mind if the quality is overall good. Beside, I don't know how many readers can actually read a raw, a description is always needed, so basically we use raws for a better appearence (too many blank bubbles, watermarks, chapter page). But raws vs scans aren't the only options, here a compromise: we can add the raw text to the scans. I have already done it sometimes and I wish to know for the future if it's a good or a bad thing, some examples:

A low quality raw.

And for the raws, if possible, we should edit them to improve the quality (cleaning the page, adjust the colors...)

leviathan_ 89  15:15, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and to add on; there is only a slight chance where the reader doesn't know what it says in the speech bubble if it's blanked out since they probably already read the story somewhere. And if the text is japanese, 90% of our visitors won't understand anyway. Also, I personally don't think blank spaces are ugly for reasons above :p 15:30, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

Here's an example of English scanlated usage: the English written within the image is incorrect, compared to what is written in the caption (like "Bearquchi" vs. "Kumaguchi". This inaccuracy may lead to editing wars. Yatanogarasu 18:42, March 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * (Image corrected, here the old version which the post is referring to. leviathan_ 89  13:37, March 6, 2011 (UTC))

Wait, I thought we were only talking about Manga Panels here.. maybe not...? 18:45, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

You're the one who just wrote the caption. The image is just saying the name of the characters on the bills. SeaTerror 18:48, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I copied it from the "Beli" page directly. And it's just to prove a point, not just Manga Panels. Yatanogarasu 19:01, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

Prove what? It proves nothing. It is stating exactly what is in the picture. SeaTerror 19:09, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

I tell you, I copied the caption from the "Beli" page. The image says "Bearquchi", while the real translation (as said in the caption that I copied directly) is "Kumaguchi". Get it? Yatanogarasu 19:34, March 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * But for images like this we can always correct them, it's not that we have to always use raws (I don't understand if you are saying this) because some picture like this one. And this leads to my question, is it ok to edit scans (adding the Japanese text or correcting translation mistakes) like I did? (see above). I think it's a good compromise, especially if someone doesn't like blank bubbles we can added the text. leviathan_ 89  20:15, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

It's an awesome idea. I always though about this thing of us using scanlated images, all the problem with the watermarks, so I guess RAW images fix everything. There's just one thing: if we ever agree on using only RAW images, the quality must always be the best, not those weird spoiler RAWs we find around. I remember posting a trivia Kid image in RAW (bad) quality, and then someone else posted an also RAW version, but in a way better quality. And about the speech bubbles, I don't think most images need what's wirrten on them to make sence, a simple caption should do it. GMTails 20:17, March 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * "sigh" I remind everyone once again; its fine to use manga, its fine to use anime. It should be the editors common sense when to use what. I kinda of like it how it is because it gives us leyway on what we can do. My blnder in the orginal Image Guidelines means we have much more relaxed on what we can do. Also, before someone asks, the rule missing was just to support our practice of replacing manga with anime, so no, it won't support the preposal here if we add it. If we decide EXACTLY what to do here, we'll be closing a door... A door that will sadden me beyond all means. I feel disappointed those Joekido "worst of the worst" moments got resurrected, if this door closes I feel like this wikia isn't where I belong anymore.


 * No I'm not saying I'll quit, just be throughally disappointed with the editors here. Some things are best left alone and in the case of images being demostrations, no one ever weighs up the images we do have conflicts of interests over tio see which version it is. And, for the most part whether or not it matters if we include text or not, images with a lot of speech bubbles are ultimately ugly anyway and shouldn't be used at all. Regardless, as far as the manga is concerned, I would rather go either RAW or blanked scan. Everything else isn't really a good idea and I don't want to see every image become its RAW counterpart, its bad enough they are all anime pretty much as it is. Off the top of my head I only know of King of Liars, Norland that doesn't use anime and this page warrent anime use at all. In this case, anime images would HAVE to be reverted because its not the same.


 * Also, for some acknolwedgement here; "raw means raw", scanalation groups don't always end up with the same direct copy so no, even if you take a text snip from the orginal RAW and add it to the scanalation groups results you won't see a exact copy. I said this in regards to tabbing discussion, when scanalations were referenced on the same level as RAW. Their not always exactly the same as raw even if you remove the text and should not therefore be treated as equal one and the same. One-Winged Hawk 20:41, March 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * Also since watermarks are mentioned, this isn't such a big problem. Its just a case of swapping out and watermarks are NOT a excuse to use RAW, just noting. No I'm not favoruing RAW or scanalation at this moment, just noting that something also isn't a problem. One-Winged Hawk 20:44, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

Prove the translation is wrong in the image first, Yatanogarasu. SeaTerror

I think that raw scans are perfectly fine, and I see why we should have them. The English ones are not very consistent, depending on who translated them, and the raw scans are not altered or changed. Therefore, no mistakes. And I honestly think that not all pictures should be from the anime, because they change some pretty important stuff (Whitebeard's face, etc.). I honestly don't think it matters much, but I think the English scans are the only thing we shouldn't use due to inconsistency.Pacifista15 22:28, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

@SeaTerror: what I am saying is not exactly proving, but just translation inaccuracy. Like some scanlators use "Jimbei", others use "Jinbei". It's hard to get it right with all the variations. A RAW will not get us wrong. Like Pacifista15 said. Yatanogarasu 23:30, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

Just saying, the "q" replacing the "g" is wrong so it's basically an inaccurate translation. 23:34, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

Full pages
Speaking of which, may be off topic a little, but @One-Winged Hawk and @JapaneseOPfan, I found a way to locate all those entire page images that we were talking about, and uploading an entire page is risky of copyright violation. It's all in a category, so we can delete from that list. Yatanogarasu 07:56, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

Ok, but what do we do with this image? it's sorta needed, but it's a manga page at the same time... do we just delete it since we have a list? ☞

14:54, March 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * It doesn't even need to exist on the wikia with the list and all and falls under "whole page" category so... Yeah... I'm just thrilled at last someone is addressing this issue. One-Winged Hawk 15:07, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

1) Fair Use

2) There is nothing wrong with using entire pages. If an entire manga chapter was on here then it would be a different story. SeaTerror 16:03, March 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree, although some of these entire page images are not needed as a whole, only some panels are important and they can be splitted. Also some text can be deleted too. leviathan_ 89  16:34, March 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, I do point out despite the unacceptable levels of whole pages, the rules of Image Guidelines] states this is okay regardless, we need to discuss and decide on this to get it changed. Whole pages are only appliable in "worst case" scenarios in which one cell isn't enough. Its rare they do. The guidelines was altered though to support current (then) practices. This means to remove whole pages, we need to vote on it sadly. This was something I forgot about, although a delete is justified because we REALLY don't need some of those whole pages... If you can explain in one frame, you should indefinately. One-Winged Hawk 02:57, March 7, 2011 (UTC)

Well, don't just remove the delete template without a thorough discussion. Yatanogarasu 18:40, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

Then don't add the delete template without a thorough discussion. SeaTerror 19:52, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

No, no, no, no more stupid conflict, really. Anyway, we can always cut out the pictures and make the diagram I posted above ourselves so I guess it's not that necessary after all. 20:44, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

That's a bad idea. Some things would have to be redrawn and I doubt anybody on here is that good of an artist. SeaTerror 23:01, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

Wait we're not allowed use any piece of a manga scan? Even without words? 23:28, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

Are you people talking about using collages, or erasing parts of the pictures and redrawing them at your own? We try to lower the need of collages, and drawing your own pictures is pretty much fanarts. Yatanogarasu 23:45, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm.. like, you know how we write down everything for SBS pages instead of posting the page itself, and cut out just the pictures and post them next to the SBS question so people know what we're talking about? Well if you look at the diagram image above, in cases where we have those, I was saying we could just cut out the images and post them, and write down the rest of the diagram. Do you.. get me? I think people got me wrong :/ 00:10, March 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * In the case above... There is just no need for that page, or those images, to exist at all. We have satisfactory images overall as it is. Everythings fine without that image on the wikia, never needed it before and it doesn't really do much for the wikia we can't explain without it. Thus, its not needed for demo purposes and is retirable. But this feels like its circling, find a better image then this one to discuss with perhaps? That one is falling trap to the flaws it pretty much puts itself into. :-/ One-Winged Hawk 02:49, March 7, 2011 (UTC)

sorry for the sepration, but this is drifting off into something else so I parted the conversation to focus on this alone. One-Winged Hawk 02:44, March 7, 2011 (UTC)

Hey so do speechbubble-less panels also count in this convo?! please say no. 03:05, March 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * Theres several different issues, we should seperate the conversation a bit more to adress each sitaution. Not all of them will have the same things to consider about them. One-Winged Hawk 03:35, March 7, 2011 (UTC)

Those images can be used on articles. The point was it is not copyright infringement because of Fair Use. SeaTerror 03:39, March 7, 2011 (UTC)