Forum:Unreleased Template on Chapter Articles

Alright, we really need to settle the endless edit war Klobis and ST have every week over the use of Unreleased on chapter pages. It was already talked about at length on Talk:Chapter 758, and while there was a majority there, this still needs to be more clearly resolved.

The main argument was based on the fact that the chapter was not out in Japan yet, and did not match the release date.

On the 758 talk, User:Zodiaque proposed that we make a new parameter for the template "so that if the the "chapter" parameter is there, the line says something different."

I liked this idea, but for some reason that discussion died before anyone really agreed to add this. So some input here would be great. The last discussion of this was a pretty nasty affair of people going back and forth insulting each other (thanks, Gal!), so let's work extra-hard to keep this on-topic. You can be for or against using the template as it is currently on pages, or for using the altered version Zodiaque provided, so please state your opinion on this in your post. Thanks. 05:22, February 14, 2015 (UTC)

Discussion
"This article is in reference to a chapter that has yet to be released."

That's why the template is wrong to use. Once it is out regardless if it's leaked then it counts as released since this is an English wiki. That's how we always have done it. Plus people who never commented on that talk page have removed it before. If anything it should revert to the original version before an edit war like we actually already do even if it isn't a rule (except on images). Plus if you're going by a majority then there was no majority since it was actually incredibly close. SeaTerror (talk) 09:31, February 14, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Klobis, but I think the text in the template should be more clear like: "This article is in reference to a chapter that has yet to be released in Japan." 12:45, February 14, 2015 (UTC)


 * Yeah, "This article is about to a chapter that has yet to be released in Japan." seems like the best option to me. ("in reference to" is needlessly complex). 14:14, February 14, 2015 (UTC)

This is the English wiki not the Japanese One Piece wiki. SeaTerror (talk) 18:23, February 14, 2015 (UTC)

So you want people to add speculation based on the ever so high quality translations of mangapanda and mangastream?

The point of the template is keep people from adding garbage edits to the page, what is so wrong with that? 18:35, February 14, 2015 (UTC)

They wouldn't be adding anything like that since it wouldn't exist. Any mistakes also get fixed right away. SeaTerror (talk) 18:38, February 14, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, people add shit to the pages anyway, but if this gives a chance of reducing that then it's got to be worth having. It's not like it takes a huge amount of effort to add or remove this.

22:44, February 14, 2015 (UTC)

Even if mistakes get fixed right away, it would be better to prevent them from happening in the first place. 23:18, February 14, 2015 (UTC)

This template won't reduce anything. That was actually an argument on the forum about keeping the template in general and if anything it was proved that vandalism would happen anyway. Nothing was reduced even with it on it. The entire point with manga chapters is it doesn't belong on them since it counts as released even if they are leaked. If you want to go that far then make it a rule that we can't add any information until it is officially released. SeaTerror (talk) 23:48, February 14, 2015 (UTC)

Having it might also serve to help readers by telling them the information on that chapter might not be 100% accurate. Remember the chapter where Admiral Maynard ordered his men to spread chaos? Mangapanda and Mangastream have awful translations and we should at least give a warning to avoid confusing readers. Besides, having it doesn't do any harm. 00:19, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

You got a point there, since the RAW has yet to be released, we can't determine anything precise based on scanlations. 00:29, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

So let me re-write this again to update it to more about what we are talking about:

How does that look/sound? 00:36, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

I already told what harm it does. It gives out false information stating that the chapter isn't released since this is the English wiki. Also that new line won't work since the top line is what appears on everything on that template. You can't edit it without changing the entire thing. SeaTerror (talk) 00:47, February 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you're talking about in that second part, this template has not been edited to include any of this stuff. This is all just example code. 00:51, February 15, 2015 (UTC

"This article is in reference to a chapter that has yet to be released." That's the default message for the template in general. You cannot edit that part without changing it for everything else. SeaTerror (talk) 00:56, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

OMG I can't believe it but I actually kinda agree with ST... The issue is about the wording and the purpose of that template:
 * Yes, "released" it's not the same as "leaked", so technically spoiler chapters are not yet released. ST mentioned that this is an English wiki, however if you make that point then "released" refers to a VIZ/whatever company release One Piece in English, not scanlation groups. We never really took in account the English version, because we are pretty much independent from both scanlation groups and official translations anyway.
 * What's the purpose of the template again? I think the purpose of the template is to warn the reader that the page was created based on spoiler information. And with "spoiler" I mean those kind of information leaked in forums and such by the translation groups. So those information cannot be confirmed with the actual chapter and are basically just "rumors" that we have to trust on someone else's words.
 * From our standpoint, does it change anything if the chapter is released in Japan? Since it's leaked, it's still the same chapter. There won't be any difference with the actual chapter since it is the actual chapter. What may be problematic are the translation errors by the scanlation groups, but how do we deal with those? 1) By checking with different translations 2) By checking the raws (if you can). If you have access to the leaked raws then those are available the same moment the chapter is, otherwise you have to wait someone to upload a scan and that doesn't necessary means it will be the same day on the Japan release, not to mention that the raws won't be helpful for most of us since we don't speak Japanese anyway. So actually, the day we can "confirm things" is "when the raws are available to someone available who speaks Japanese". We occasionally found translation errors/misunderstandings even in articles a few years old, so...
 * I'd say that when the scans are out you can pretty much confirms things so you don't need to "warn" the reader. Making two different statements, one about the scan release and one about the official release, it's also a possibility if you can find the right words...
 * Returning to the purpose of the template, instead of referring to a not clear release, what about saying "The content of this article is based on information not yet fully confirmed"? When the scans are out, we can assume that we can confirm things to a certain degree, at least we will know that we won't make things up. Because remember that even when the raws are available or the chapter is released in Japan that doesn't mean all of our article will be immediately corrected...

Levi I'm against the message being changed since you can't change it unless you change the default message set for the template and I'm against it being used on chapters in general. This wiki has always counted a chapter as released once it was out in English regardless if it was a scanlation or not. Plus if people want to go that far then either we don't add chapters early or we add the chapters but stop people from adding ANYTHING to ANY article. So nothing about Doflamingo being a World Noble for instance until a week later. SeaTerror (talk) 18:28, February 17, 2015 (UTC)

I'm against having the unreleased template on chapters for wording issues ST and Levi bring up. I'm also against having it on chapters in general. 00:43, February 22, 2015 (UTC)

I think JSD's suggestion looks good, and I support it as long as it can be implemented without changing the template message for other types of pages. 00:50, February 22, 2015 (UTC)

This discussion is essentially over, we just need someone who can edit the template with the different parameters. 02:49, February 27, 2015 (UTC)

Did you completely ignore the fact that that isn't possible without changing the default message of the template in general? Besides I wasn't the only one who said to leave it off chapter articles. SeaTerror (talk) 02:56, February 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * Oops! I meant to say it's over until we can find someone to see what they can do with the template. I have a hard time believing that every possible thing we can do to the template has been done already. Forgive me if I want a second opinion on that, ST. 03:08, February 27, 2015 (UTC)

Ok, so Zodiaque edited it for us before sadly leaving us. Anyways, here's how the chapter version looks now:

Now we need to actually discuss if we want to use this until the chapter's official release date. I still say yes. 18:04, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

I agree. 18:22, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

"This wiki has always counted a chapter as released once it was out in English regardless if it was a scanlation or not." So no. SeaTerror (talk) 18:59, March 7, 2015 (UTC)


 * Rules are a living, changing thing on this wiki, ST. We may choose to change them at will through discussions in forums and talk pages. Where are we right now?

And that rule is still validated by the mere presence of the chapter article itself once the English version is out, it says nothing about what templates we can or cannot add to the article. 19:02, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

The release date in the chapter box is the official Japanese release date, anyway. 19:12, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

By the logic of the template then we shouldn't make an article at all or add changes to ANY article until it is officially out. Once it is in English it will always be counted as released because we actually have information to add. SeaTerror (talk) 19:14, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

"Do not add information based on English translations if you are unsure of its accuracy." That italicized part means that you can add content, it just serves as a reminder to be careful about what you add. That's all we want here, we aren't after all the content on the articles. 19:23, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

Yet it doesn't matter since the chapter is still "released" when the information is out. That's exactly why the template will never belong. SeaTerror (talk) 19:27, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

It's leaked, not released. And the template says "yet to be released in Japan". 21:21, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

Jump releases new chapters every Monday does it not? So if we receive a translated chapter 2-3 days later. Where does "has yet to be released in Japan" come from? 21:23, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

It's the monday after we get them, look at the release dates, Besty.

ST, "Released in JAPAN". It's not out there, and we try to base all of our content on the Japanese manga, our primary source. So I think it is more than fair to have a template up asking editors to be careful about what they add to an article while our primary source is still unreleased. Once again, we do not want to bar people from adding "ANY" content, like you keep saying we are. 21:24, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

Released in English due to leaks. It doesn't matter what the release date says. If we go by your logic then we shouldn't be adding ANY information to any article until it officially comes out since the Japanese version isn't officially out. So we should be waiting a full week. The article wouldn't exist otherwise since we count it as released once it is out in English regardless if it came from a scan or not. SeaTerror (talk) 21:42, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

If official release date is the deciding factor, why not modify the new template to say "This chapter has not yet been officially released in Japan"? MizuakiYume (talk) 21:47, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

Stop being a broken record, ST. JSD already addressed that in the post above yours. 21:50, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

ST, please do not talk about my logic again, since you do not appear to understand it. Why can't you understand that I am asking for something much more moderate than what you keep saying? 21:53, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

Because you're not. The chapter is counted as released once it is leaked, once again. This is the English wiki and not the Japanese One Piece wiki. We put out information as soon as it is available regardless of an official release date. SeaTerror (talk) 22:06, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

I agree. The chapter is out and we should have information on the articles once an English version is out. This is what I have been saying (or rather, trying to say) the entire time.

All I want is a notice to some readers and editors that information may not be entirely accurate because the official release of our primary source has not happened yet. 22:13, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

I was under the impression that this is an English-language wiki based on the original Japanese version of One Piece, for those of us that can't read or understand Japanese. Release dates for things are therefore determined by when they become officially available in Japan, as opposed to when they've been translated into English and released elsewhere. If this is the case, then chapters shouldn't be considered as released until the official Japanese release date. Am I mistaken? MizuakiYume (talk) 22:16, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

Then make an entirely new template since calling it unreleased is wrong. SeaTerror (talk) 22:17, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

Are you really still gonna make a fuss over this just because of what the template is called? Our primary source is unreleased, it fits as a name for the template. If that is your only concern, and you are the only one opposed to this, I don't see why this isn't a case of a clear majority right now. 22:26, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

Scroll up if you think I'm the only one opposed to it. Plus as I said it counts as released once it comes out in English regardless if it is a leak or not. This is the English wiki. We would be doing the same thing if we got episodes early too. SeaTerror (talk) 22:46, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

Because apparently people are only counting ST, let me say this again, I oppose having the unreleased template on the chapter articles, so there we go. 22:52, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

Maybe the header should say "This article is about a chapter that has yet to be officially released." This would help readers understand that even though the chapter has been released by some sources, the official version has yet to come out, and so the language might not be correct. The language of the releases wouldn't even be an issue. 23:34, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

Kaido that still wouldn't mean anything. The issue is with the template itself and the fact that we count it as released as soon as ANY release is out regardless if it's a scanlation or not. We get the information 5 days early which is why it is counted as released on this wiki and why people are against the template being used at all. SeaTerror (talk) 23:36, March 7, 2015 (UTC)

Poll Discussion
Example: So yeah, a poll seems to be the best way to resolve this. Two weeks, starts on Monday. Test poll below. 00:33, March 12, 2015 (UTC)

I just did some minor rewording, it works for me though. 00:38, March 12, 2015 (UTC)

Post Poll Discussion
Alright, result was to not use the template. 19:50, March 30, 2015 (UTC)