Talk:Belly

Name
I'm pretty sure "belly" is one of the least popular spellings for beli/beri/berries, for the obvious reason that it looks the funniest. Perhaps we should have a vote on what to use? Personally I like beli the best, but I'm not really picky so long as it isn't "belly".unsigned by User:STAREYe

Six years later, and this guy's request is now denied. Oh, the irony. 19:38, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

A little something
Not to bring old wounds up but can this little thing "" be used to symbolize the monetary system for belli at least in the infoboxes since it seems like the problem of berry and what not seems to come up every once in a while.

It could be used like this:

300,000,000

Since it's the most recognized symbol for the money, it could at least solve the problem.Mugiwara Franky 17:36, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd say we go with the symbol until we've come up with something that can ultimatly be the "correct" spelling of beli/beri/berry. YolkaEd 18:19, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The symbol is the best thing we can use, but I'd cut it down to half the size so it doesn't effect the page.


 * Sorry guys for the slow reply. Been doing a lot of busy work in real life, plus my net craped out on me for a few weeks. Now the sun is shining and the box unit that controls my neighboorhoods net connection has dried out, I can work more on the site again. :) One-Winged Hawk 13:44, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Wrong Name
The article uses the wrong name. It is never Belly. It is either Beli or Beri. I say it should be changed to what it really is. Drunk Samurai 20:41, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I think its the articles orginal name, as it was on wikipedia. When the info on it was transferred, the name never got altered. On wikipedia, we had huge debates over name. --One-Winged Hawk 21:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I say we change it to Beli then. Its the correct name after all. Drunk Samurai 17:53, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Merging proposal
Should we merge this article and Extol into one article entitled "Money" or "Currencies", like in the German wiki? El Chupacabra 18:27, January 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Seconded. Their all stubs anyway. One-Winged Hawk 18:56, January 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose: Stubs aren't actually worse than merged articles that sum up different topics in probably very long listings. I'm already having a hard time looking up attacks on Gomu Gomu no Mi, Okama Kenpo et al. So I beg you - please leave it as it is, even if they're stubs. (Plus: The German wikia won't have such merged articles.) -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/intern/de/images/thumb/a/a4/C2.png/15px-C2.png · 18:25, January 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Umm, technically Beli is a fundamental aspect of the One Piece story so it kinda deserves it's own article. For Extol, I'm not sure.Mugiwara Franky 23:28, January 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have ideas how to improve this page, but I will wait until the end of this discussion. The German wikia does have this merged article, I found it when I searched for the images. This gave me the idea for the merger here. I don't consider Beli a very fundamental aspect. It's just the currency used in One Piece, but nothing vompletely unique like the Devil Fruits or the World Government. El Chupacabra 14:10, January 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, OPwiki ain't part of Wikia, it's a "foreign wiki" to us. They thought of transfering to here but refused in the end and stayed independent. Interwikis point to Wikia only. -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/intern/de/images/thumb/a/a4/C2.png/15px-C2.png · 17:24, January 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, Germany is divided once again. ^_~ However, I've noticed the "foreign wiki" has more arrticles then you have (3870 vs. 754 according to the main pages), so I would recomend you to negotiate about a transfer. I think we all would benefit from this. El Chupacabra 16:47, January 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * There is nothing to negotiate. They don't want to come to Wikia - that's set for years now and since then Wikia relicensed texts from GFDL to CC-BY-SA - OPwiki stayed with the GFDL, and the time's up for that relicensing process. So either way - it's not possible. -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/intern/de/images/thumb/a/a4/C2.png/15px-C2.png · 20:21, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Basing a merger on another site, especially one that's abit more of a fansite, maybe not a good idea. It has some good ideas but not necessarily all of it should be followed.


 * Beli is kinda a fundamental aspect of One Piece. You see it on Wanted Posters. You see it on Nami's eyes. You see it being used. You see it particularly everywhere. It's kinda an international standard in the One Piece world. The other currency such as Extol and what's being used on Amazon Lily however are pretty minor considering only certain places use them.Mugiwara Franky 14:20, January 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, then let's keep Beli but merge the other currencies into it as a section. At least Extol seems to be pegged to the beli, so it would fit well into this article. El Chupacabra 16:47, January 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * How about merging Extol and Gol into one article "Money" and keeping Beli as a more detailed stub? -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/intern/de/images/thumb/a/a4/C2.png/15px-C2.png · 20:21, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Considering Extol and Gol are not exactly Beli, that would be a better solution I guess.Mugiwara Franky 07:54, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

A Little Help?
Well I tried to create a sort of "Stepping stone" system of note on this page to indicate what is from poorest to richest 'wealth' but I need someone to give a second opinion on this. Mostly, I've noted its a common difficulty for folks to grasp how 'wealthy' is 'wealthy' in the OP worlds context and a lot seem to think that a 100,000,000+ bounty isn't that high. Its something I'm come across a number of times over the years, but recently noted it more and more because of the scales are being tipped this high by Oda. Since the Straw Hats have gotten 200,000,000 and 300,000,000 in two different cases, its slowly becoming a fan problem with judging the amounts overall gross value. One-Winged Hawk 01:34, March 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * For places like East Blue, it appears that the 10 millions or so are an extremely wealthy amount. For places like those in the Grand Line, especially those farther down along the line, it appears the 100 millions or so are more wealthy. Parts of this however are based on bounty standards and not necessarily every day standards so I'm not entirely sure.Mugiwara Franky 02:24, March 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well it does seem you can get some universal level; the very poor have a life savings of less then or about 100,000 while the richest have 500,000,000+.


 * To be well off you need to have a reglaur source of about 50,000-100,000 since this is about the amount Arlong ceased from the villagers and they just abut made it over the years without loosing anyone even when the going was tough. 2,000,000 is a high amount for anyone of this soical wealth to achieve and Nami only hit it because of her thiving skills off of pirates. Royalties shouldn't normally have a problem of 100,000,000 being lost without their country without fear of bankruptcey (alabasta was just unlikely), but their wealth is definately nothing compared to the World Nobles.


 * Mind you, the existance of 50 beli in a system where 500,000,000 is seen being spent is a sort of indicator to just how poor they may go. One-Winged Hawk 02:30, March 18, 2010 (UTC)

Gor
Information about Gor has been here for rather long time, but still nobody provided a confirmation. I think it's time to remove it from the article. Ruxax 14:50, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Did you somehow miss the reference? SeaTerror 17:55, October 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * His comment was before I added the reference.Mugiwara Franky 18:01, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Extol image
I cannot really tell, but isn't Amazon holding some extols in her hand in the cover of chapter 645?

I don't think so. They look more like coupons if anything. It would be odd for Amazon to hold the money out in the open like that. Ticket taker at amusement parks don't normally flash their cash like that. 00:38, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

"Beli" to "Berry"
According to the translation/dub section, ''"The author has spelled it both as "Berry" and "Belly" on the actual bills." ''If this is true, then why isn't the name of the article "Berry"? The author spells it this way, making it an official romanization, does it not? 07:45, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

He has also romanized it as Beri. And because it's Engrish we say Beli.

But which romanization is his latest? Don't we always go by the latest spelling he makes? Such as Alabasta. Besides, if he never spells it as "Beli", that technically makes this article fan-named. It should be "Beri" or "Berry". 07:59, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

Where did he romanize it as berry?

I don't actually know. But the article says it. It could be an error, though. Where did he romanize it as Beri? Did he ever actually romanize it as "Beli"? If he never romanized it, then I guess the name of the article is okay. 08:12, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

He has romanized it as beri.

Are you sure that's Oda's romanization and not the translation from the English volume? 08:50, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure. The previous picture in that file was an obvious translation, so this could be a raw that Leviathan uploaded. But it's also in the category "scanlation images allowed", so it might not be raw. Since Leviathan_89 uploaded it, we'd need his answer. 23:33, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

It's not a raw, it's the scanlation version (by null) edited by me to match our romanizations of the three joke character names, this is also why the image is in Category:Scanlation Images Allowed. The raw uses kanji both for names and the word beli. If you want I can upload the raw, but I believed we needed the English words in this one. I can also try changing "Beri" to "Beli".

But which one did Oda actually romanize it as, if at all? 00:11, January 4, 2013 (UTC)

There is no romanization in that SBS. I believe we have to look for it in the manga.

I found the first romanization as "Belly" in chapter 95. Since the translation/dub section says it was also spelled "Berry" I guess that was later on. Still, I don't know where "beli" comes from.

Possibly scanlations but Oda probably romanized it somewhere as beli. SeaTerror (talk) 16:52, January 10, 2013 (UTC)

I believe so, but we have to found the reference.

How long should we wait before renaming the page? (Luckily, it shouldn't appear a lot on the wiki, since Mugiwara Franky introduced the symbol for that very reason.)

I'm not sure about how long we should wait, but from what I can tell, the "belly" romanization is correct. I checked the picture in the chapter against the one in my copy of volume 11. The differences are slight enough that it is clear Oda intended it to be belly. The one main difference was the small notch in what looked like an "I" in the chapter was made into a "Y" in the volume, the only change being that the notch was expanded. 16:24, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

The page also mentions a "Berry" romanization, since "Belly" was indeed used we should presume that "Berry" was also used at some point. I think we need to find out that one first, because if it's more recent it makes more sense using "Berry". Then we have also to figure out where Beli comes from.

Yeah, I agree with Levi, we should try and find the other romanizations before we rename the page. 16:54, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

@DP: in the raw I got, it is unambiguously "Belly". I added a picture to the article, figured out it was kinda informative. @Levi and JSD: I understand, that's why I asked "how long?". Cause except if someone is willing to scrutinize every single page in the manga looking for a "Berry" or "Beli" romanization, we cannot leave the page with an unsourced title for years…

Luckily, since I'm hunting quotes for a little project of mine on my wiki, I'm currently going through the whole series. It may takes a while, but I'll keep an eye open for this too, if when I'll be done I won't find any clue, we will come to a decision then. Give me one or two weeks. :)

But you just posted an image that gives the name of "Belly", you know it?

We need to find out where "Berry" was used and if "Beli" was even used.

@Levi: oh, that's great then. Don't rush it though, we can leave it as is for a few weeks…

Ok I finally read all chapters again... and sadly, I didn't find any image with other romanizations aside the one from chapter 95. The only thing worth looking at is in chapter 141: isn't there an "i" on the bill? It doesn't look like one to me, but I cannot say it for sure. Otherwise all times where money bills were shown they had always plain numbers and/or faces. Obviously I may have missed them and I didn't check special chapters/volumes or databooks, but that's how things are. What are we gonna do? Rename into "Belly"?


 * By the way, I didn't obviously checked the whole anime...

We'll keep it at Beli. SeaTerror (talk) 23:40, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

If "Beli" doesn't exist in the manga but "Belly" does, then it needs to be renamed to "Belly". 23:55, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

The only image says Beri and not Belly. SeaTerror (talk) 00:52, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Clearly the RAW image on the bottom says otherwise, and the image on the top isn't RAW, so we have seen a romanization of "Belly", not "Beri". Also, Leviathan, I couldn't find any Bellies on chapter 141. I might have missed it, but can you clarify where it's at? 01:36, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

The only thing that note says is 10,000 SeaTerror (talk) 01:38, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Belly. It says 10,000 Belly. Look under the "10,000" in the bill. 01:39, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

No it doesn't. You can't even see what it says. Only the last 3 letters stick out and that so called "o" looks like a capital D. That image can't be used because you can't make out what it says exactly. SeaTerror (talk) 01:45, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Can someone upload an image of this bill from 141? I can't find an example with high enough quality to read. 01:51, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

It's also entirely possible that the spelling came from something that's not a picture of the currency. It may have been romanized in a databook or something with people just talking about the currency. My point is that there may be other sources for different spellings that we should look into since searching the manga has proved fruitless. 01:56, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

The image where "Belly" was shown is the one added in this same discussion, this one from chapter 95. The one in chapter 141, is in the first page where Hiluluk is counting his money, but that was just a doubt of mine (I though it was possible to see an "I", but not the whole word anyway), it doesn't looks like any word is present on the bill... @JSD: "My point is that there may be other sources for different spellings that we should look into since searching the manga has proved fruitless." - my point is that unless you find other sources, "Belly" is the only one available. We used this unconfirmed romanization (beli/berry) for years now. Maybe an idea is looking in the page history for the user who add the translations/dub section and ask him to explain, but I doubt he is still active. @SeaTerror: I don't understand why are you coming out now saying it's not written "Belly" on the image we posted... we were already saying that one month ago and you didn't complain. Anyhow, I uploaded an high-contrast version, you can clearly read "...elly", the "B" is a bit unclear, but you can also see the decoration typical of, basically it's written "elly".

I honestly think we have enough to justify moving it to belly. 14:45, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, the only reason we waited was to find other options, but we weren't that lucky. I left a message to Angel Emfrbl‎ since in the third discussion in this same talk page, she mentions some debate on Wikipedia. Maybe she can explain where Beli comes from.

The image where "Belly" was shown doesn't actually exist since you cannot make out what it says exactly. Plus that image you just uploaded is enlarged and "enhanced" meaning that you had to edit it to try to make it more clear. The image cannot be used as a fact. Plus in that you can't make out a B or a beli symbol or an E. It would be pure speculation to rename it to Belly due to that image. SeaTerror (talk) 19:50, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Most of us can see the "Belly". Even I can see the "Belly" without Leviathan's high contrast image. Maybe it's just you. He edited the image so it's easier to see for the discussion. Even without the edit, I think most of the people here can make out the "Belly". Just because you can't doesn't mean nobody can. Anyway, unless Angel Emfrbl can show us a real "Beli", then "Beli" will have to go. 19:52, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EnhanceButton Says it all. You cannot zoom in on something and "enhance" it like that. It doesn't work like that. It means the image is edited and cannot be relied on. You cannot see the full text of either image regardless meaning it cannot be used. Well unless you want more speculation on the wiki. SeaTerror (talk) 19:57, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Do you know what contrast is? It's the difference between the dark and bright colors. It's something you can adjust on your TV, not some magical zoom-in "enhancement". All Levi did was change the contrast and zoom in a bit. It did not alter the image in a way that could change how the image looks, only highlight the difference between the background colors and the word. And as Nada says, it can be seen in the unaltered image anyways. 20:06, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Exactly Uknownada, everybody except SeaTerror can read "Belly". But the point that even you, ST, can read at least "...lly" which exclude without doubts Berry, Beri, Belli and Beli. So it's an evidence that at least those romanizations are wrong, if other images don't come up that means those are the speculations, not Belly. Don't try to be the speculation knight and don't bring up the fact I zoomed in, if you want I cannot zoom in at all, the zoom I used didn't altered the image at all, but it's not my image the issue here.

Because you cannot read the entire image it cannot be relied on. It is speculation to use something like that as a "fact". It would be the whole "George" Black incident all over again. Also editing contrast on an art image means it is edited. Contrast on a TV is something completely different. SeaTerror (talk) 20:13, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Changing contrast on TV is still editing. Since SeaTerror is obviously the only person who can't see "Belly", why don't we just change it now? Since there's no "Beli" to be found. 20:23, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

No it isn't. Its just fixing your TV. Doing anything to an image is actual editing. I guess if you want to ignore our speculation rules you can just move it to Belly. SeaTerror (talk) 20:28, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

I don't see why you guys just don't ask Klobis to confirm. 20:39, February 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Because Klobis isn't the only person who can see English letters. When it comes to Romanization, all we have to do is look at it. We're not looking at Japanese letters. If you can read this discussion, you can read what's on that bill, and that's all that matters with this. 20:53, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

What matters is that there may be another romanization somewhere else that you are overlooking. Stop trying to rush to change something to the official english translation and make sure you check everything. 21:01, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

No you can't. You cannot see what part of it says therefore it should not be used as a "fact". I thought the official English used "Berry". SeaTerror (talk) 21:01, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

From what I watched last night, I saw Belly. 21:19, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

The official English version, at least in the FUNimation dub, is "Berry". They might have changed it in the subs; FUNimation often changes the localizations on their subs, but that's not important. The point is that, no offense at all to you Klobis, Klobis isn't needed for this. Leviathan himself stated that he just re-read all the chapters and never found a "Beli". We don't need Klobis' confirmation when we can find it on our own, although his/her input would help. We're not discussing anything Japanese, we're discussing something romanized. What we need is someone who has seen "Beli" and to confirm "Beli" was written by Oda. Anybody can do that. 21:26, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

In five years no other official romanizations came up, so it's not really "rushing things"... I still like to hear what angel has to say, but Belly is safe. Sea, we can read Belly on the original image, my version was made just for you. If you don't like "edited images", then change the contrast without saving the picture, it will be just like on your tv. By the way, it's not like George Black because here we can(not) see the first two letters, but we can clearly see "...lly", so that's exclude without doubts Beli, Belli, Berry, Beri. In George Black case we never saw the first part to begin with, but since all romanization starts with "Be-" and everyone but you can read it, there is no issue at all. You have to admit that Beli cannot possibly be right, you cannot just say "I cannot read the first two letters so let's forget about it". Bring an image of "beli", that's the only case when we will keep this page as "Beli", otherwise tell us why Beli is less speculative. If I have to bet, Beli was used in the anime, but unless we find where it's just an hypothesis.

We have more than enough evidence that it's belly from images that weren't compromised. I don't see what the problem is. 22:36, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Technically the best solution would be to name it "Currency" or something along those lines. Obviously that isn't practical in this situation. I am saying that it is speculation to rename it because it is. You can't even see the "Be" in either image because both are dark smudges. SeaTerror (talk) 22:42, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Since the currency is named, we should keep it with the named. If "Currency" should be used at all, it might be a redirect, but not as the title of the page. It's not speculation to name it "Belly" because "Belly" is very much visible on the image. It's not speculation, it's a simple fact. 22:48, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

It isn't visible at all. Only the last 3 letters are even visible. On the edited version that is. Also I think you need to look up in the dictionary the word "fact". SeaTerror (talk) 22:50, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

I don't mind renaming the page "Currency" since it's not only about one currency, but we have still to write "beli" in some way in the page (and in the wiki), that's the issue. Sea, you still haven't explain why "Beli" is not speculative, since it didn't appear anywhere in the series.

I never said it wasn't. I said it would be speculation to use "Belly" due to that image not being 100% clear. Using "Currency" would only work if we used the symbol image through out the wiki on everything. SeaTerror (talk) 00:25, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

The image is clear enough that "Belly" is visible. You even acknowledge that the last 3 letters are visible, so if anything is speculative, it isn't "Belly". As for renaming it "Currency", the page is mostly focused on Bellies and the other currency is only in one section, so it's not really significant enough to rename "Currency" if we're only going to focus on one. 00:35, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

No the image is clear enough that "lly" is visible. Not to mention it's only clear on the edited version. SeaTerror (talk) 00:38, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

You're the only person who can't see it in the unedited version, so I think that's just your problem, not the image's. 00:42, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

You're making it up about the unedited version. You literally cannot see anything because both images have the dark smudge. SeaTerror (talk) 00:47, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

''"And as Nada says, it can be seen in the unaltered image anyways." "Exactly Uknownada, everybody except SeaTerror can read "Belly"." "We have more than enough evidence that it's belly from images that weren't compromised."'' That's three people in this discussion, not including me, who can see the image just fine. I'm not making anything up, and I can see it. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean no one else can. 01:05, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

3 people isn't enough. I see Belly though. 01:23, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

3 people is more than one. That's enough to show that more than one person can see "Belly", which pretty much makes SeaTerror's claims of "you cannot see" or "you're making it up" completely moot. In fact, counting you and me, Galaxy, that makes 5. Do you still think no one can see the image clearly, SeaTerror? 01:37, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, we've renamed the page, which is fine at this point. Though Klobis isn't needed for any translation here, Klobis is very familiar with translation issues, and may be able to shed some light on where the other variants come from. Asking him certainly couldn't hurt.

And once we do have what believe is the correct romanization (which may be now), someone should edit the image used to show various coins and bills to show the correct spelling. 03:02, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

I changed the main image to the image that cannot be read image of Nami holding a bill. We can keep it like this just until a RAW version of the various coins and bills image can be acquired, or until somebody edits it with "Belly". 03:14, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Neither image says it. It says DARKSMUDGELLY. You are literally making it up. The other letters do not exist because you cannot see them due to the dark smudge. It doesn't matter what anybody says because it does not exist which is an 100% absolutely gauranteed fact. The BE is just not there and anybody who claims so is flat out lying. SeaTerror (talk) 03:44, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

I can't tell if I'm supposed to take that comment seriously, so I'll just assume the discussion is closed. Good day, gentlemen. 03:49, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

St, you need to flat out get your eyes checked. 03:50, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion is never closed unless it is in an archive. The only thing you can see in either image is a dark smudge. It's funny how you claim you can see anything from a dark smudge yet have not even tried to prove the non-existent "BE" even exists. SeaTerror (talk) 03:53, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion is closed when the subject matter is resolved. And things get resolved when most users agree on an issue. When one user refuses to let things resolve, then problems are created.

And the B is actually more clearly identified as the symbol. And the E can be recognized by the three points of the capital E. If you really still can't see it, I don't know what to tell you. 04:05, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Because it doesn't exist. It is not there. There is just a dark smudge. People are just seeing what they want to see. It happens all the time. Reminds me of all the people claiming that playing Stairway to Heaven backwards contains satanic lyrics. People hear or see something that doesn't exist only because other people claim it is there. SeaTerror (talk) 04:08, February 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * So what, you just think Oda decided to draw a smudge and write "LLY"? He obviously meant to write out the word which is also the name of the currency. Use your eyes and try to see more than a smudge. Stop trying to be difficult because you just want us to use some fan spelling of "Beli". Literally everyone else on this talk has been able to see it: It's there. 04:14, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

I've been saying either one is actually speculation. You cannot make out the full word so it should not be used as a "fact". People are seeing something that is not there when all there is is a smudge. That's all it comes down to. The 2nd image shouldn't even be used for anything since it was edited in the first place. SeaTerror (talk) 04:17, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Sea, that image (the unedited one) was uploaded one month ago and everybody immediately acknowledged that "Belly" was written there, it was used as reference in the article after all. You did not say anything then. Now you come out saying that you cannot read it? Well, through all this discussion you just said that you wasn't able to read it and just denied everybody's else points without saying more. So since "being able to read it" is not something that can be proven for you and everybody but you can read it, get over it. It's fun that we are having this discussion when was exactly this behaviour of yours that brought up your ban forum.