Talk:Kikunojo

Saku
I was just wondering why the page is called Kiku when I see it translated as Saku. If someone could please explain that. 02:43, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

JB says Kiku. MS says Saku. Raw says 菊 (きく), not さく. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 04:02, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

Full name
Recently in chapter 939 (page 2) Hiyori called Kiku "Kikunojo". Cracker-Kun (talk) 23:44, April 12, 2019 (UTC)

Let's wait until it's used more to determine whether or not that's her real name. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 02:23, April 13, 2019 (UTC)

Gender
I agree, with gender this individual arises confusion. In article write she, and this he (confirmed in 962 the head of manga, released today). Also, new information was indicated that Kiku is the younger brother of Izou, they are from a family of dancers, left without a family, earned a living by dancing and more. I want to believe that the information will be corrected and a new one will be added, which has become known. So, should we change all the shes to hes since Kiku is actually a man?Ghmorello (talk) 05:46, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

I thought the chapter indicated she is just posing as one. Regardless, it's way too unclear. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 05:50, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Actually, I think I misread it. I'm a little hesitant to jump forth immediately, but it should probably be changed. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 05:55, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Greetings from the SOF wiki hi, why don't we just make Kiku's page say they and call it a day. No misgendering = no problems boiz.

Regards, That Guy that Says Things (talk) 06:47, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

She identifies as a women so thus she is a woman who uses she/her. Giant Shy Guy (talk) 06:54, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

He said he is a "woman at heart" which is not exactly identifying as a woman. He uses a male version of "I", plus the Nine Red Scabbards in the original Japanese are specifically referred to as "Nine Red Scabbard Men" or the like. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 07:11, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Should he be considered an okama?
 * 🏴‍☠️👸🏻 (talk) 07:40, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

It was a disguise so it had nothing to do with transgenderism. SeaTerror (talk) 08:52, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

"Kokoro wa onna desu", "my heart/soul is a woman", I don't know how you could possibly be any more clear about her identifying as a woman. If a later chapter backsup it being entirely about disguise or art as an onnagata, it could be up for debate. But as it is I do think changing to he/him pronouns would be inappropriate (BLou-Lilie (talk) 09:32, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

But the thing is, he talks like a man (like with male pronouns and stuff) if I remember correctly. Why would we not use a male pronoun if the character himself uses male pronouns.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 09:43, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

The same reason Big Mom uses ore. She's been treated and refered to as a woman thus far, and admitted to being a woman at heart. There is no precedent thus far that he'd rather be called a man, regardless of the group she belongs in puts her under a name that specifices man. Until a later chapter reveales that she is only using it as diguise and really does prefer being treated male, then information thus far says she is a she. Giant Shy Guy (talk) 10:36, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

I just noticed despite being an active discussion the entire article has already been changed to male??? Giant Shy Guy (talk) 10:43, July 5, 2019 (UTC)


 * When asked if he's a man, Kikunojo replied "I am a woman at heart", so the least we know is that Kikunojo is a male. Whether or not he identified as something is to be determined so for now Kikunojo is a male. Rhavkin (talk) 11:31, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

In my opinion he is clearly an okama, I mean, he is a man who dresses like a woman, and who identifies himself as a woman. Cracker-Kun (talk) 12:53, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

"Kokoro wa onna desu", "my heart/soul is a woman" suggests that Kiku identifies as fenale, so we should be using she or they Are You Serious (talk) 14:51, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Also, on the topic of O-kiku using "sessha" a "male" first pronoun for samurai. Japanese pronouns don't work exactly like english pronouns. Like mentioned above, Big Mom uses "ore", which is also considered a "male" pronoun. It's also not an uncommon trope in manga in general for female characters to use "male" pronouns for a variety of reasons. But also in real life japanese, pronouns do not indicate what you identify as. It's like wearing clothes, a man can wear a dress when he wants to, but that doesn't mean he identifies as a woman. You can literally use "ore" in personal conversations but use "watashi" in professional settings (or other pronouns in whatever situations, this is just one example). It doesn't change your identity. So I don't think Kiku using "sessha" is proof she identifies as a man. If her "posing as a woman" was purely for the sake of disguise it would also make no sense for her to use a pronoun associated with samurai. So, like I said in my earlier post, I don't know how you could possibly be any more clear about her identifying as a woman than saying "my heart/soul is a woman". (BLou-Lilie (talk) 15:14, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

"Ore" is occasionally used by female characters. As far as I know, "sessha" is not used in the same way. His usage of "sessha" was when he literally said "I am a samurai", so there is no issue about him keeping his cover since he effectively blew it there no matter what.

Jaimini's points out another thing indicating Kiku is male: in Japanese, the Nine Red Scabbards are called Akazaya Ku-nin Otoko, Otoko obviously meaning male to connotate they're called the "Nine Red Scabbard Men", which translations leave out for clarity. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 15:36, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I'm sorry but, obviously you will find more instances of "ore" being used by female characters. It is one of the most common first pronouns in general. I think it'll be hard to make a long list of characters that use sessha in general, let alone finding an instance where there could be an argument over the characters gender identification. That doesn't dispute pronouns not necessarily indicating one's identity anyway.

And yes I am well aware of the groups name. However I don't think it is relevant to Kiku's personal identity? The name was probably not chosen by the members themselves, and in this very chapter we have someone assuming "Kikunojo" as a male samurai. The public's view is irrelevant to Kiku's personal identity. The name could also possibly have come from a time before Kiku's "coming out", so to say. Either way, I think it's more of a meta narrative device of Oda doing his classic foreshadowing, to let the readers suspect Kiku being a Man or Trasnwoman before giving clarification. Just like her name is a reference to a famous onnagata. None of this holds any water against Kiku literally saing she is a woman at heart.

Even if you're very adamant about it not being clear cut, why should changing all pronouns to he/him before getting any proof of her identifying as male, which there is none, be more important than possibly trans erasure? I really feel like this was jumping the gun on a very delicate topic. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 16:07, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Because Kikunojō is not a trans woman. Unfortunately, Oda-sensei is not very well versed in trans anything, which is why we get okama, which follow the same conflation of drag queens and trans folk that plagues the trans community in the United States. He is based on a combination of onnagata, who were also frequently male prostitutes on the side (and Kiku, or chrysanthemum, was a euphemism for anus, particularly with regard to male-male sex) and beautiful pages like Mori Ranmaru (apocryphally speaking) who served their lords both inside and outside of the bedroom. As a kabuki fan, Oda-sensei would definitely like the onnagata element, and references to the Warring States period are par for the course in Japan. At absolute best, he is an okama, which is an extremely problematic identity and a term that is considered derogatory among the LGBTQ+ community in Japan today. 58.89.146.212 16:23, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

What about waiting the needed time for confirmation, no matter how much that time is, to say whether Kiku is a "he" or a "she"? And while we wait keeping her as a "she"? Would that hurt someone? 16:24, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

If that really makes more people comfortable, I'm okay with it. From the perspective of Japanese history and culture, especially Edo period culture (the basis of Wano Kuni), there's no real question as to what Kikunojō is referencing. But if people are concerned about trans erasure (a legitimate concern), then keep the pronouns as female. But there should be more information in the trivia about the various references to male-male sexuality, and people should be prepared to change it should the word of God say that Kikunojō is male. 58.89.146.212 16:29, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Even Ivankov's page refer to his as he. The category shouldn't change the page since he is 100% not a female. Rhavkin (talk) 18:47, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

How come there is a back and forth battle of changing the pronouns, yet there's no further arguments for using he/him on the actual talk page? If you're so adamant about using he/him, give a proper reasoning instead of just quietly changing back the pronouns. The latest post was "okay with" keeping it as she/her and no one argued further? If you don't want to commit to either just use they/them, but, I'm sorry, this is getting really immature... If it's still about the "sessha", japanese pronouns don't work like english. You cannot inheritely stick one gender to a pronoun. Gendered pronouns don't exist in japanese the way the do in english. Pronouns indicate your status or role in a given istuation. You can change them dependingly. It's like changing clothes. A man can wear a dress without indentifying as a woman. A woman can wear a three piece suit without indentifying as a man. You'd use a more timid pronoun like "watashi" when talking to your boss, instead of "ore",which you might use in a private setting. Associations to a specific gender go hand in hand with what societal norms are expected from that gender. "Sessha" is considered a male pronoun because samurai are supposed to be men. Kiku using sessha does not indicate she identifies as a man. She uses it because she is a samurai, much like the other samurai use it. Kiku saying she is a woman at heart however, is a clear indication that she identifies as a woman. Further more she actually says this as a correction of someone calling her a man. If there's any other arguments, I'd be happy to discuss further. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 20:29, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Well, technically speaking, since the wiki tries not to assume stuff, we shouldn't assume that Kikunojo wants to be referred to as "she." The most concrete and set in stone evidence is that she is actually a male. The quote in question that "My heart/soul is that of a woman" is debatable to whether it discredits her being a he. One can interpret that as a correction of Chopper calling her a man, but it can also be interpreted as a confirmation to Chopper's question, such that "Yes I am a man, but my heart is that of a woman." All we know for sure is that she is an actual male and so based on minimal use of assumption, we would have to use "he/him" until further clarification.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 21:23, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Heavily disagree. Precisely because of the "woman at heart" comment coming as a correction to being called a male she should be reffered to as female until it should be directly contradicted by Oda, which I hope will never happen.

Elizabello 2 (talk) 21:31, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

To be honest, this is a difficult for me to find an answer to. Based on my quick research, Kiku is a transwoman (born a man, but identifies as a female (at heart)), so I think he feels to be a woman. Pronouns are not something common in Japanese, so unless Oda does something in what should be used —though I think he’s fine with either or— I don’t know what to say.OishiLover75 (talk) 21:39, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

I don't know how "My heart/soul is a woman" could be interpreted any other way. But alright, I'm curious. Just how much more explicit do you think it's gonna get in a japanese shonen manga? Because I feel like you're setting an impossible standard. If Kiku does identify as a man, that'd be very easy to clarify. But to be more explicit than "My Heart is a Woman"? To me it's very much clear and I don't know how much more obvious it would need to be. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 21:52, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Ah also, like I said, if you just wanna be safe either way, just use they/them? Definitely better than the edit war. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 21:54, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Remind me why “they” is a good pronoun. I always thought that was more for plural usage, or fusions involving a male and a female in Steven Universe’s case.OishiLover75 (talk) 22:06, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

They/them can be considered a non binary/ gender neutral pronoun. Funny you mention Steven Universe, not all Fusions use they/them, Garnet for example uses she/her. It's not necessarily intended to be plural for the fusions. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 22:14, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Although "they" is considered by some to be the best choice when not assuming gender, that usually is only the case in when you don't know the subject. For example: "That person broke something. They should fix it." However, in this case, we know who the subject is, and in the eyes of the everyday common English language, that is a weird use of a plural pronoun when using it in the article and it's going to stand out as weird. Also, calling Kiku transgender is putting a modern agenda on a character in a manga from a country that is based off of ancient Japan. The safest way to characterize Kiku is how we define Izo, a cross-dressing man.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 22:19, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

I believe the term is just meant for identification purposes, not for a case of a social agenda. However, I do see how Oda is showing corruption of society against what gender want to be.OishiLover75 (talk) 22:25, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Should stay as he/him as always been the case with similar characters (plus Kikunojo was in disguise) and for reasons said above. Also funny that the only ones making a big deal about this are people who only joined today but never raised a fuss about Ivankov's article. -Groosenat0r (talk) 22:30, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Ivankov isn't the same. He identifies as both a man and a woman and his default form is the male form so it makes sense to refer to him as a man. Kiku identifies as a woman so I don't see why we wouldn't refer to her as a woman. DewClamChum (talk) 22:42, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Plus I think Kiku expressing herself. The dress may not be a disguise.OishiLover75 (talk) 22:49, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Ok, so, I'm just gonna skip the irrelevant comment and tackle this one by one. Isn't it a little silly to refer to transgender as a modern agenda, while also talking about cross-dressing? Aren't both modern terms? Also no one called Kiku literally transgender. We don't need to use the term if it's too modern. Kiku said she is a woman at heart. To me, that says it all. I kinda missed out on adressing it before, but Kiku does not use sessha only after revealing herself as a samurai, she uses it earlier when introducing herself to Luffy and Zoro, while still "in disguise". Also, if you really wanna go with assuming the absolute minimum: Kiku never confirmed being a man. The Japanese literally only says as a respone "My heart/soul/mind is a woman" to the question of whether or not she is a man. I know some translations put a "Yes, but..." there, but that is not in the original. It's an assumption. Kiku says she's a woman, that is all. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 23:07, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

I normally don't mess with the wiki, but I was curious and wanted to see the discussion.

Honest question: what do you guys think someone means when they say "I am a woman at heart/soul"?

Do you think it means they're a man? The character themselves made an open statement on their gender, who are we to say they are wrong? It seems like you guys need a written statement from Oda to believe this character is female, but nobody asks for the same when we talk about cisgender characters.

Lumiruka (talk) 23:16, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Just gonna drop this in real quick: "The clearest sign of Kikunojo's gender is him referring to himself with sessha (拙者 or せっしゃ?), an archaic form of "I" used by male samurai.[8]" Also why did you edit Blou-Lilie's post? Groosenat0r (talk) 23:44, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Remember, samurai back in feudal Japan were men. It was not accepted for a female to be one. That’s why just because she said sheesha, it just refers to her being a samurai. OishiLover75 (talk)00:06, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

That literally has nothing to do with Kiku. This arc is based off of feudal Japan. Transgender is a modern term that did not exist back then. SeaTerror (talk) 00:44, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Transgender, as a term, may not have existed back then, but trans people still existed. I'm no historian, but Wikipedia does mention you could trace trans people in history all the way to the Edo Period. And they're everywhere in History, two-spirit people are an example if you're in the US.

And sorry, if I did edit anyone's comment, it was not my intention. I opened the edit window and reloaded it before pasting my reply to ensure I didn't erase anyone's comments (since I had it opened for a long while), but I guess that wasn't enough. I'm certain you could find a handful things that did not exist in the feudal period, but are in Wano. Besides, trans people exist in One Piece (Ivankov and Inazuma are good examples), so I don't see why Wano shouldn't have them.

Transgender is a term that may not have existed, but the people did exist. Just like how gay people were around way before 'homosexual' was coined as a term.

02:25, July 6, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

Okama literally means transvestite, not transgender. SeaTerror (talk) 02:27, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Kiku may not be a Okama, but just a transgender person. Plus I heard people with transgender don’t want to be confused with transvestites. OishiLover75 (talk)02:45, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

While I do want to challenge the claim that Okama means "transvestite" specifically...

Ivankov's gender is *offiicially* Newkama, which is something specific to One Piece. According to the wiki itself, the Newkama say they have gone "beyond gender". Even without finding a real-life equivalent term (which I know, for a fact, exists, the term being "non-binary gender"), you can simply apply the meaning of transgender to this, which is "identifying as a gender which you were not assigned with at birth".

I don't think I need to explain further, but the newkama are, by definition, trans people.

And yeah, transgender isn't the same as transvestite. It's not about dressing, but about your gender.

02:46, July 6, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

Being based off of feudal Japan, there is no concept of "transgender," they are simply men that cross-dress like woman. No matter how much one's inner heart was a woman, no one went around asking people to refer to them as "she" and no one did either. Also, Kikunojo is a reference to Segawa Kikunojo, the Kabuki actor that cross-dressed as female for his roles. No one refers to any of the seven generations of Kikunojo as "she." Nightmare Pirates (talk) 03:01, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

She is 'a woman at heart' and is referred to with feminine honorifics ('o-Kiku'), so her pronouns are implied to be she/her despite her using a traditional samurai (male) pronoun for herself ('sessha', 拙者) but Big Mom uses 'ore (俺)' and is still she/her. Sessha is not conclusively male, it's just that all samurai were male so it's a presumed-male pronoun, but so is 'ore'. Using 'he/him' and calling her a 'man' seems like intentionally applying western gender analysis to how Oda is presenting o-Kiku, but seems like that's not the majority view on this wiki for now. (edit: thanks User:Lumiruka and User:BLou-Lilie for your posts below, just read and saw we are not the only ones who think this he/him switch from she/her is not justified and should be swapped back immediately) PersephoneQuarius (talk) 03:04, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

I think Kikunojo is also a reference to the yokai Yuki-onna, since she is referred to as “The Lingering Snow”.OishiLover75 (talk)03:11, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Not once I recall saying there is a concept of transgender in One Piece, only that we can equate it to real-life concepts, and that newkama consider themselves to be "beyond gender". That much is fact, not opinion.

Anyway, since we were referring to Kiku until we found out she has a penis, it's safe to say Kiku was either referred to as female until now by absolutely everyone they met (Kin'emon, Sanji, Zoro), or, at the very least, gender-neutral pronouns translated as "female".

I'm not saying Kiku's gonna go around asking people to call them female, that seems to be a modern concept of what "trans" is. Transgender still existed back in Edo Period, though, even if it was not what we see today.

Back on topic: if the original japanese raws refer to Kiku in female terms (excluding "sessha", as I think we have established there is no other pronoun a samurai would be using, correct me with the "female equivalent of sessha" if I am wrong), especially after Chapter 948, it will be more than clear that Kiku is a trans woman (i.e. girl with a penis), and this discussion will be over.

It will likely be more productive to wait until then to take a conclusion, but do we really need to know more than what Kiku told us herself? That she is a "female at heart"? She didn't say "I'm a man, but...", she said "female at heart". Do we really need more than that? Why? Do you think people in Wano ask each other what's in their pants before deciding the gender of whom they are talking to?

As for the Kikunojo reference, I think that just makes it more clear Kiku is a "girl with a boy body". That is a common depiction of trans women, even if we have recently been finding it's not the best way to put it as.

Also, do remember: there were Onnagata who behaved socially as females even outside of the Kabuki theaters. Isn't living as a gender the same as being that gender? Is that not, literally, what being trans means: to be a gender that isn't what you were called just because of what's in your pants?

I think I was pretty clear. If we still disagree, then I think we can at least agree on waiting to see the terms used to refer to Kiku after episode 948, and change (or maintain) the pronouns accordingly.

03:27, July 6, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

The discussion will be over when a poll happens most likely. The issue with that is the majority of people in support of calling Kiku female can't vote due to the wiki's voting rules. SeaTerror (talk) 03:37, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

It could be interesting to make a poll in the One Piece subreddit. Is there a particular reason as to why we would be unable to accept that?

03:49, July 6, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

The subreddit isn't part of the wiki. SeaTerror (talk) 04:51, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

" Being based off of feudal Japan, there is no concept of "transgender," " I don't know about you, but I'm not in feudal Japan. They also don't have aconcept of Devil Fruit users, yet the wiki refers to them as such. They also have no concept of "gun", yet we all know a gun when we see one. We wouldn't need someone in-universe pull out a dictionary confirming they have a concept for "homosexual" in order for us, real life human beings, to be able to see a homosexual relationship and recognize it as such. Kiku is the definition of transgender, whether or not the concept and recognition of them is confirmed or not. We, as the readers, posses the ability to see and recognize that Kiku identifies as a woman, she, to reiterate, says that "[Her] Heart is a Woman" (Kokoro can mean a variety of things, heart, soul, mind, feelings, but they all proof the point). She doesn't even give the question of whether or not she is a man the benfit of ''confirmation or denial. ''The only response is that she is a woman. At this point, the gender you adress Kiku with, it entirely about your own personal bias. And I choose to refer to someone explicitly identifying as a woman, as such. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 06:26, July 6, 2019 (UTC)) Sorry for some reason I was logged out, but it was me all along (BLou-Lilie (talk) 06:26, July 6, 2019 (UTC))

Kikunojo is supposedly transgender and refers to herself as a woman at heart apparently. That would Infer (because a lot of things like this are usually implied not told directly to normalize the concept) that she identifies as a woman. So I'll bring up my suggestion again of calling her They until something is officialized. Regardless of anyone's stances on LGBT or on historical accuracy or on what she says in a language most of us don't speak or if she's an okama or not. It's the easiest compromise between the people that wanna decide her pronouns based on her sex and presumed gender.

Also, I'll remind everyone involved in this active topic that has already been decided on since all of her pronouns have already been altered that gender is a really nebulous concept nowadays. We're probably Never going to figure out what her pronouns are until somebody says 'there she is' or 'there he is' when they see her. So I'll say again that we just make it They/Them so that nobody is offended and then set it to what it should be later when the next log book comes out.

Regards, That Guy that Says Things (talk) 07:12, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

They/them pronouns have been suggested as a middle ground multiple times, but apparently even that is asking too much.

"until somebody says 'there she is' or 'there he is' when they see her. " Unfortunately, that is gonna be very difficult considering how the japanese language works. You can leave out the "topic" from a sentence if you consider it can be understood from the context. So a sentence could technically just be "There comes!" and who is arriving will be clear by looking at them. Not to mention that japanese usually uses gender neutral third person pronouns, so even if a third person pronoun is used specifically, it likely won't tell us anything about gender identification. They didn't even have gendered third person pronouns in japanese before they started translating western literature. When "he" or "she", or infact any personal pronoun, is used in english translations, there is a high chance it's an assumption made by the translator based on the context.

I agree, again, that it would be easiest to just use they/them as a neutral term for either side. But there also should be realistic expectations as to what more proof you would possibly need for confirmation. Again, gendered pronouns don't work that way in japanese, you cannot be any more clear than saying "I am a Woman at heart". (BLou-Lilie (talk) 07:30, July 6, 2019 (UTC))

This has gone to far from the main topic.


 * 1) Translation is not liner, and we as a wiki decided many times that in cases were translation is troublesome, to wait for the official release.
 * 2) This hasn't been adressed so i'll ask now: What exactly was said about Kiku that made Chopper ask if he is a man?
 * 3) Kiku has without a doubt presented himself as a female, but described himself as male. This is far from being a woman or a crossdresser or an okama, and in fact, comparing to the real world, until clarification, is simply called "Queer" or "Fluid".
 * 4) This discussion is about a mere line at the latest chapter. Give it time to be further explored and in the meantime, being "a woman in heart" isn't "being a women" nor "being an okama", all that we do know is that Kiku was called a man and didn't rejected the claim, just expanded upon it.

Rhavkin (talk) 08:46, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

The only reason the conversation is still going is b/c it still says he/him on her page. Also I clipped the thing for you for reference Rhav (the full page is a lil farther up too apparently), I'll agree however that these are fan translations done by not-professionals for funsies. I'm just an outspoken activist coming out of the woodwork to argue a point b/c I see something wrong and I'm gonna say something about it. I'm sure Lillie is here for the exact same reason.

Regards,

That Guy that Says Things (talk) 09:19, July 6, 2019 (UTC)


 * Also since I'm here, for the benefit of anyone still putting around in this talk page it might be a good moment for everyone to read up on GLAAD's page about transgender folk so we can all be on the same page. Maybe you'll learn something.

[//www.glaad.org/reference/transgender https://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender]

Regards, That Guy that Says Things (talk) 09:24, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Prisoner: "あの面…おでん城で死んだ筈の…！！ ワノ国一の美青年剣士"残雪の菊の丞"と同じ面！？" (I'm not gonna translate the entire sentence, we all read the chapter) The term in question is "美青年剣士", "biseinenkenshi", which we can take apart into "美青年" and "剣士" "剣士" kenshi just mean swordsfighter, man or woman. "美青年" "biseinen" however, although none of the kanji are specifically gendered, the term refers to a handsome youth, a good looking young man. So it's a good looking young man swordfighter. To which, if you want the rest of the scene, Chopper asks "え！！？男なのか！？", "E!!? Otokonanoka!?", which is just "Eh!? You're a man?" And finally Kiku's response: “心は女です. ♡”, “Kokoro wa Onna desu.♡” "My heart is a Woman" So, I don't think that random prisoner has any authority on deciding Kiku's gender, and Kiku's response clearly reads as a correction, at the very least as to what she identifies as. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 09:26, July 6, 2019 (UTC))

I'm just gonna adress the points made by Rhavkin:

1. While official translations are not always without fail, I agree that is a good stance in general. But there's obviously been some confusion and misunderstanding about some concepts such as pronouns. So while we wait for the official translations, I don't think it's a bad thing to spread some information and clear up some misunderstandings.

2. "That Guy" provided a part from a scanlation, and I added the japanese original for clarity.

3. Please, do tell me when Kiku described herself as male? Because she did not as far as I remember. If it's about the pronoun of "sessha", you can go ahead and read this argument being adressed multiple times above, or you can go ahead and change Big Mom's pronouns to he/him if you want to stand by your reasoning no matter what.

4. I highly recommend checking out that handy link provided by that guy. Also Kiku not denying the claim she is a man means she is a man? Now in my opinion her "expansion" to the claim reads as a correction, but either way she says her heart/soul/mind is that of a woman, which is like the definition of transgender.

(BLou-Lilie (talk) 10:42, July 6, 2019 (UTC))

Some comments: 180.190.195.212 10:57, July 6, 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) As much as it's claimed that the "My heart is a Woman" line is clear enough evidence, it really seems it just isn't if some comments here are to believed. Other factors like the "sessha" usage, the apparent onnagata references, and the Red Scabbards name in Japanese really do seem to muddle things up no mater how much they're dissuaded.
 * 2) Right now, it's so far just revealed that Kiku is actually a man at it's most basic. It thus might be necessary to just wait for a couple more chapters to come out and such to see if there's more evidence to conclude definitely whether or not Kiku self identifies as female and thus should be referred to as such. Best to stick to what's been presented at it's most basic for the moment.
 * 3) Any explanation such as the Red Scabbards were probably named as such before Kiku "came out" or the public's view on Kiku is completely irrelevant borders a bit on pure speculation. Unless more clarification is actually given, such attempts at explaining things may confuse matters even more than they already are.
 * 4) At the moment, there's the prospect that Kiku could be a "proper" trans character however it's just as likely that Kiku could simply be another crossdressing character that Oda has been known for.
 * 5) On a sidenote: Big Mom using "ore" appears to be a completely different usage in context than Kiku using "sessha" from what can be gathered. When Big Mom uses "ore", it's used to frame her as a violent brute. When Kiku uses "sessha", it's used to frame Kiku as a samurai as well as apparently being used as a hint to Kiku's actual gender. The context is different in both cases.

Maybe it's best to wait for Kiku's Vivre Card to go on sale? cdavymatias (talk) 11:00, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

'''"If it is not possible to ask a transgender person which pronoun they use, use the pronoun that is consistent with the person's appearance and gender expression or use the singular they." -''' Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation

In GLAAD's Glossary of Terms, linked by That Guy above, under the section on transgender names, pronoun usage & descriptions.

Also Cross-Dresser falls under the umbrella term of Transgender.

I highly recommend reading through more than just that passage though since clearly there's some ignorance towards this topic.

(BLou-Lilie (talk) 11:04, July 6, 2019 (UTC))

'''Transgender women are not cross-dressers or drag queens. Drag queens are men, typically gay men, who dress like women for the purpose of entertainment. Be aware of the differences between transgender women, cross-dressers, and drag queens. Use the term preferred by the person. Do not use the word "transvestite" at all, unless someone specifically self-identifies that way. '''

There's this line in the link provided by That Guy. Does this mean crossdressers aren't transgender? If so then how can cross-dresser fall under the umbrella term of transgender?180.190.195.212 11:15, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

All I'm saying is that if someone asked me if I'm a man, I would say "no". If I were a man who either identify as a female, or a male that wants to be address as a female, I would say "no". If I was identified by another as a male alias, I would say "no".

The only time I would say I'm "a woman at heart" was if I was a man, who identify as a man, want to be address as a man, but not be confined by male common acts, and prefer female act including wearing female clothing and makeup, refrain from arguments (like when Kiku hid behind Zoro in Bakura Town), show a caring nature (as shown towards Tsuru, Tama, etc.), and show affection openly (hugging Kin'emon). Rhavkin (talk) 11:19, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

It refers to "transgender woman", or "transwoman" for short, it's different from the umbrella term "transgender because it's specififes the identity of woman. The umbrella term still includes cross-dresser.

Also I missed out on your other reply because we edited at the same time, so:

On the Big Mom note: Yes, the context is different. The point is that these pronouns aren't gendered, they express the context and status of a setting. Big mom is violent, Kiku is a samurai. I've explained in more detail how japanese pronouns work before already, and I feel like I'm already repeating myself too much anyway. But again: ''Japanese pronouns do not work the way they do in english! ''

HOW is someone "revealing" Kiku as a "man" the basic above Kiku saying she is a woman at heart.

So okay, so, when you ask someone "Are you a man?" and their response is "I'm a woman" you go "Well that's not a no"?

(BLou-Lilie (talk) 11:26, July 6, 2019 (UTC))

First and foremost, this is not an issue about transgender/LBGTQ and should not be turned into an issue of that. That is overpoliticizing the topic of whether the wiki should refer to Kiku as she or he. For those claiming that it is a personal bias for those that want to refer to Kiku as a he, likewise, shows a personal bias in wanting to call her/him a she. The job of the wiki is to present information as it is given, which would, first and foremost, be that Kiku is a male. Using "he" would actually be the most unbiased because it looks at only facts and not assumptions. The fact is Kiku is a crossdressing male. Male = he/him. Now yes, gender and sex may not be the same thing, but that is not relevant for this topic, especially when many languages and cultures don't differentiate the two. Nightmare Pirates (talk) 11:26, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Someone's identity has nothing to do with politics.

The link for GLAAD is specifically for providing informations, such as guidelines for journalists, so it's a perfectly reasonable standard for an information based wiki.

Since you probably won't go out of your way to check it out, these are the relevant parts to this very discussion:
 * Transgender (adj.)
 * An umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from what is typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. People under the transgender umbrella may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms - including transgender. Some of those terms are defined below. Use the descriptive term preferred by the person. Many transgender people are prescribed hormones by their doctors to bring their bodies into alignment with their gender identity. Some undergo surgery as well. But not all transgender people can or will take those steps, and a transgender identity is not dependent upon physical appearance or medical procedures.
 * Gender Expression
 * External manifestations of gender, expressed through a person's name, pronouns, clothing, haircut, behavior, voice, and/or body characteristics. Society identifies these cues as masculine and feminine, although what is considered masculine or feminine changes over time and varies by culture. Typically, transgender people seek to align their gender expression with their gender identity, rather than the sex they were assigned at birth.
 * Use the pronoun that matches the person's authentic gender.
 * A person who identifies as a certain gender, whether or not that person has taken hormones or undergone surgery, should be referred to using the pronouns appropriate for that gender. If you are not certain which pronoun to use, ask the person, "What pronouns do you use?"
 * Use the pronoun that matches the person's authentic gender.
 * A person who identifies as a certain gender, whether or not that person has taken hormones or undergone surgery, should be referred to using the pronouns appropriate for that gender. If you are not certain which pronoun to use, ask the person, "What pronouns do you use?"


 * If it is not possible to ask a transgender person which pronoun they use, use the pronoun that is consistent with the person's appearance and gender expression or use the singular they.
 * For example, if a person wears a dress and uses the name Susan, feminine pronouns are usually appropriate. Or it is also acceptable to use the singular they to describe someone when you don't wish to assign a gender. For example: "Every individual should be able to express their gender in a way that is comfortable for them."
 * (BLou-Lilie (talk) 11:33, July 6, 2019 (UTC))
 * (BLou-Lilie (talk) 11:33, July 6, 2019 (UTC))

This link says that transgender and crossdresser aren't the same thing. If they are defined as two different terms here, how can one therefore be defined as being under the other?

The GLAAD link also specifically says that Some of those terms are defined below in the Transgender entry. Keyword is some I guess. It doesn't clarify if Cross-dresser is one of these terms but there is that line saying Transgender women aren't cross-dressers. Therefore wouldn't that mean Crossdresser is not under Transgender. Why do semantic gymnastics when it can simply be understood as such.

Sessha is apparently gendered based on a couple of links such as Wikipedia. Also it's constantly repeated that Japanese pronouns do not work the way they do in english. Is this an absolute rule for sure? Can it really not be used in this case with a pronoun that's typically used by males by a character that's revealed to be actually male?

Referring Kiku to as male really is the most basic thing. As shown here, that one specific line of Kiku's can be interpreted in different ways and people can't agree if it really means that Kiku self identifies as a woman or it just means Kiku prefers behaving in a more effeminate way. It's just not that clear no matter how many times it's argued. What is undeniably clear is that Kiku was identified as a good looking youthful man as translated.

Also, the whole thing with GLAAD that's been brought up while informative kinda really doesn't aid much in this case to some degree as this topic deals with a Japanese shonen series not a Western series that goes by guidelines set up by a Western organization to be more politically correct. It really just muddles things up and deviates from the actual topic at hand.180.190.195.212 12:55, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

A transgender woman or a transgender man aren't necessarily cross-dressers and vice versa. That is not the same as the umbrella term, transgender. I know this is difficult when you're not familiar with it. If you talk about transwomen and transmen then that already incorporates their identity. I had explained this above but it's just one line. also there is a part about cross-dressers if you want to look for it. But if you want this isn't even necessary.

I'm aware that is what wikipedia says. It's just easier to say "this is for men" and "this is for women" than "This pronoun expresses a status/role/trait that is associated with this gender by societal norms"

"Can it really not be used in this case with a pronoun that's typically used by males by a character that's revealed to be actually male?" of course it can be used, it is used that is why we talk about it. What I'm saying is that it shouldn't be used as evidence to proof what Kiku identifies as.

As you can see "ore" is also labeled as "male". These guidelines aren't inteded for fictional characters, they are to unsure you as a real life person don't use a pronoun considered inappropriate in a given setting. Sure Big Mom can get away with saying "ore", she's a priate. But even for men, using that in a professional setting would be highly inappropriate. And again, it's a samurai pronoun, there is no alternative for women.

Even if you argue we cannot know what Kiku identifies as, she still very evidently expresses her gender in a feminine way and by the guidelines, again also inteded for journalism and the like, even irregardless of gender identity, you should refer to a person as the gender they express themselves as if you have no other information to guide you. And yes sure, it doesn't deal with japanese, but the wiki isn't in japanese either now is it? It's in english and should live up to the standard. Again, if we cannot use these guidelines for the english wiki, and you want explicit "preferred pronouns" in a japanese manga, i.e. a language where there is no such thing as preffered pronouns exist, then you just set an impossible to reach precident for any character to ever be recognized as any on the trans spectrum unless they are pompous exaggerations like Ivankov. I hope you can understand why that is problematic.

I really have no idea how this discussion is taking this long. Someone clearly jumped the gun wanting to change it to the newest information without having enough background knowledge of the topic at hand, and now it just feels like being too stubborn to change it back.

I certainly didn't intend to argue this long, but I'm baffled

(BLou-Lilie (talk) 13:36, July 6, 2019 (UTC))

I support Cdavymatias' idea to wait until their Vivre Card entry comes out. I am perfectly fine if we use "they/them" pronouns until then. 14:15, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Since you're flooding the discussion with a bunch of irrevelant crap to the discussion you now have to prove GLAAD existed in feudal Japan. SeaTerror (talk) 18:37, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

There have been many characters that are transgender in other series and they still refer to them as Male even though they may look/identify as female.I think that we should keep it as he/him because that's what we're supposed to show. AlexPlayzz (talk) 18:52, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

If the consensus is that Kikunojo's gender is still unclear because there can be many interpretations, that's one thing.

Saying, that we cannot apply real-life terms to fiction makes no sense, as we often derive concepts from our lives to fiction, and, to an extent, writers expect us to do so. We should not expect a story to show us dictionary meanings of each word in order to ensure we know what they mean in the fictional world; we can simply derive from what we know.

I do agree, however, that we should not need to rely on GLAAD; instead, those who wish to discuss about trans characters should read up on what transgender actually means. This is not being "politically correct"; LGBTQ+ people also exist in Japan.

Direct reply to AlexPlayzz:

If a character is a transgender person, specifically a trans woman, and they are referred to as "he/him" or "male", understand that's just transphobia. It may seem irrelevant to you, but, in real life, people care about what they're referred to as, and don't want to be misgendendered. I'm sure you would have a hard time finding a woman who wants to go around being referred to as a dude, and vice-versa.

Misgendering these characters is a disrespect to them, and a disrespect to actual trans people; I'm sure you can understand.

As I said before: if the consensus is that "Kikunojo's gender is unclear", we should be perfectly fine waiting for next chapters for more evidence. Kiku never said they were a male, not once in the series.

I think we can all agree on the following:


 * 1) People do not wish to be referred to the gender they are not;


 * 1) "Sessha" is not a gendered pronoun; otherwise, Chopper would not have been surprised that O-Kiku was called a male;


 * 1) Kikunojo had no reason to disguise herself in front of the Straw-Heart Alliance, so there is nothing to indicate her presentation is a disguise (but, sure, maybe that's just how she presents all the time, as a "crossdressing male");


 * 1) Kikunojo sees herself as a "woman at heart"; her status as a woman has never been disputed until the recent chapter, in spite of the fact that Sanji has swooned over her, and characters have claimed Kin'emon to be "popular with the girls" when Kiku hugged him; to which he didn't say "he is a guy, so...", instead, Kinemon replied saying he already has a wife, and Kiku is just a friend. (I might end up checking official translations/raws for this one);


 * 1) There is no reason we shouldn't keep the previous pronouns (female) or make the change to neutral alternatives (they/them), because a person's genitalia does not indicate their gender;


 * 1) Although I have said misgendering is disrespectful, this has not happened on purpose in our wikia (Ivankov and Inazuma, for instance, are "beyond male and female", just like the newkamas, so male and neutral pronouns are acceptable, even if a neutral one is best to use);

I think what I have stated above is not unreasonable, and would like to hear your opinions.
 * 1) This discussion is not political and not exclusive to the western world, as trans people exist in the entire world, and all across the political spectrum.

Thank you for your time. I hope we can reach a conclusion soon; maybe set up a poll for what the pronouns will be until a vivre card comes out.

20:04, July 6, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

I also agree with Cdavymatias that the Vivre Card will probably aid in a decision. However, that will be months from now and I think using "they/them/themselves" just sounds weird. Rather, there doesn't need to be usage of any pronouns at all in the article; the wiki can just use "Kikunojo." However, it will be work to adjust some sentences; for example (taking a quote from the page), "When he prepares for combat, he ties his hair into a ponytail with a ribbon," would have to be changed to "When preparing for combat, Kikunojo's hair is tied into a ponytail with a ribbon." This would sound much less weird than the "they" usage where it becomes "When they prepare for combat, they tie their hair into a ponytail with a ribbon."Nightmare Pirates (talk) 20:15, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Claiming a fictional character can get disrespected is not just unreasonable, it's delusional. You are both trying to push an irrelevant agenda onto a series set in a entirely fictional world. It does not belong here. We go by facts shown and facts stated on this wiki with some rare exceptions such as Monet being stated to be dead instead of unknown. What people's views on transgender be it in support of or against is 100% irrelevant here. SeaTerror (talk) 20:25, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Why don't we use Zombieland Saga as a recent example of what to do? For those unaware, it was an anime that aired just last year that featured a trans girl, Lily Hoshikawa. While the word "transgender" is never specifically used with her, it is made explicitly clear that Lily was designated male at birth, considers herself a woman, and is solely addressed as such. There is actually a similar situation when another character, Saki, laughs at her birth name, before saying "It doesn't matter what junk she's got, Lily is still Lily!" She considers herself a girl and is only treated as such. This is a relatively recent anime- why don't we treat the same for Kikunojo? And as mentioned before, there are many female characters in Japanese media that use masculine pronouns like ore, including our very own Big Mom. And to AlexPlayzz- honestly, that pisses off a lot of trans people and there's been entire edit wars on it. Nobody is happy when a canon trans woman is listed as a man. But if we truly cannot come to an agreement until more official stuff comes out, why not use they/them temporarily, or follow Nightmare Pirates' suggestion and avoid pronouns entirely? Miyushinohara94 (talk) 20:17, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with 180.190.195.212, Seaterror and Alex. Also using Big Mom's use of "Ore" as example is a poor choice since Oda already explain why she uses "Ore" in SBS Volume 85: "I've heard that both males and females sometimes called themselves "Ore" long ago. Even now, it is commonly used in some areas in Japan." Ore is also used by girls who are rude or tomboyish (Yoko) and these "pronouns" are not same as enlglish-speaker's pronouns. But sessha is very clearly male-exclusive unlike ore or watashi.Groosenat0r (talk) 20:19, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Okay Groonsenta0r then tell me how female samurais use “I”. I don’t even think there are female samurais.OishiLover75 (talk) 20:52, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Onna-bugeisha were part of the samurai class (hence the bu in geisha). May have used wachiki instead. Groosenat0r (talk) 21:06, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Okama are people who were born male but have adopted various female traits, ranging from simply crossdressing to actually changing their biological sex (From Okama article). Kikunojo is an okama. Cracker-Kun (talk) 21:27, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

While I do agree Miyushinohara to disregard the pronouns, it can be confusing in the phrase “he posed as a woman named O-Kiku”. I’m wondering what to do myself.OishiLover75 (talk) 21:40, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

As I said before, we don't need to use pronouns. That sentence could be changed to "After traveling 20 years forward in time, Kikunojo posed as a woman named O-Kiku and worked as a tea house poster girl in Okobore Town." However, "posed" is not the right word, its more like "assumed the identity of...." Nightmare Pirates (talk) 21:48, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Or even instead of saying “Kiku is a man with feminine appearance” we could say “Despite being born male, Kikunojo has a feminine appearance”, or just don’t mention man or male in general. It’s only describing the appearance, nothing to do with gender. The main issue going forward with the idea would be redundancy. OishiLover75 (talk) 22:02, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

There needs to be some mention of Kiku being a man (or originally, if that's what is preferred). But we don't need to blatantly state "Kiku is a man." It can be referred to in passing at the top of the article, that "Kikunojo used to be referred to as the most beautiful swordsman in all of Wano." As for appearance, I feel that man could be kept or otherwise the sentence starts off weird, but if using "man" is off limits, it can also be changed to "Kiku is a samurai that dresses as a female, and as such has a feminine appearance." etc... This leaves leeway for people to interpret what they want. It's a center ground between completely claiming Kiku is transgender and completely disregarding her/him saying she/he is a woman at heart. Now the category thing is debatable. Nightmare Pirates (talk) 22:25, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Nightmare: I think your suggestion about removing pronouns is great and should suffice until evidence everyone finds conclusive is shown.

SeaTerror: I assume you, at least, agree with the previous points I made, then. Hopefully, you also agree that it is possible to disrespect people, regardless of gender.

I agree: we go by facts, and the fact is that Kikunojo has not once been referred to as a male, save in the latest chapter (948), and in the "Nine Red Scabbards" name. Kikunojo has also claimed to be a "woman at heart/soul".

I'm not trying to push any agendas; it's just reality. I'm not sure why you keep insisting it's an "agenda", as if it were a secret master plan with some evil purpose.

Besides, one of the reasons why people love fictional characters is because they can relate to their struggles. Trying to erase a character's identity is throwing the author's intents in a trash can and erasing people's identities in return (because, for some reason, a fictional character cannot represent them).

I am not trying to accuse you: but this has happened multiple times in different fandoms (see "Okamaitachi" in OPM: the OPM "Hero Encyclopedia" states the character as a female "by heart" (much like Kikunojo), and goes as far as to correct the male pronoun to a female one, but the fandom still thinks "the manga doesn't go into enough detail"). The wiki lists them as a male. This is something serious and I don't think such behaviour needs to be repeated; we know better nowadays.

Miyushinohara94: I think the Zombieland Saga is an amazing model for us to follow, although we are unable to do so because there is no consensus on whether Kikunojo's statement means "I see myself as a woman" or "I'm a guy but I dress up as a girl". It is, however, an amazing suggestion for when we finish the discussion.

Groosenat0r: I had a similar doubt, but it's kinda hard to find info on Onna-bugeisha. They were also of the "samurai class", but there were no females in the same position as male samurais (in the same way Kikunojo is a samurai), AFAIK, and there is no specific pronoun I have been able to find (for them). "Wachiki" is for oirans and etc., it seems reasonable to think "sessha" is for samurai.

Let me make myself clear: I'm not saying we need to say "Kiku is a trans woman" in the wiki. I'm not saying people used to call themselves transgender in Edo Period, feudal Japan, or anything of the sort. I am also not saying Kikunojo calls themselves a "trans woman".

But understand we are in real-life, and can use real-life terms in order to make things simpler to understand. There is no reason we should make a wiki with only specific terms that are *confirmed* to exist in One Piece. That is not "delusional", is it?

If Kiku truly is someone born with a penis and sees themselves as a woman, that's the textbook definition for trans woman. Which means, well, Kikunojo is a woman and should be listed as such. No need to make a "trans" or "okama" (Okama seems to have a different meaning in the OPverse, too, and I think we shouldn't use "Okama" or "Newkama" if it's not in the Vivre Card, or characters don't call themselves such) category, Kikunojo, in this case, would simply be a woman.

I don't even think it is necessary to make a "transgender" category, that's just overcomplicating things. I just want to make it clear: Kikunojo is highly probably a girl, just with a penis, and the wiki should reflect that: Kikunojo's gender and pronouns are female. If you think it's unclear, Nightmare has a great suggestion we can use until the Vivre Cards are out.

23:03, July 6, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

The pronoun problem comes with the phrase “He is very tall” or “To his friends”. It may be too redundant to keep on saying Kikunojo every sentence. How would you fix that? Don’t get me wrong, I like the idea. Also, I don’t even think Vivre Cards give gender. OishiLover75 (talk) 22:04, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

The original text from the Personality section with five instances of "he": "Although he is male, Kikunojo says he is a "woman at heart" and so tends to act effeminately. To his friends, Kikunojo is helpful and nurturing, as seen when he treated Zoro's injuries and tended to Tama when she was being healed of her poisoning. He is also very courageous, as he quickly went to rescue Tama after the latter was captured by the Beasts Pirates."

This can be edited to no pronouns and still won't sound too redundant: "Kikunojo has claimed to be a "woman at heart" and so tends to act effeminately. Towards friends, Kikunojo is helpful and nurturing, as seen when the samurai treated Zoro's injuries and tended to Tama when she was being healed of her poisoning. Furthermore, since Kikunojo quickly went to rescue Tama after the latter was captured by the Beasts Pirates, this also shows a courageous attitude towards troubling situations."

There are also other ways of editing the same passage to avoid using he. It will be tedious to edit everything and make it flow, but if some insist on not using "he," it can be done. Its not going to be redundant after combining sentences using commas and conjunctions, though. Nightmare Pirates (talk) 00:01, July 7, 2019 (UTC)

This was in response to something on the, uh, community discussion site? But it got so long I felt like I should repost it here, to keep the core of the discussion on this page. My apologies that it's not entirely in context of the current state of discussion, but there were some points I thought were valid to reiterate here. "Not just about Kiku, but in general, I highly encourage you to reexamine what qualifies as what a person identifies as. Because the problem is, "preferred pronouns" like we use them in english, simply do not exist in japanese. If you want more explicit proof for Kiku to identify as a woman, you are setting a nearly impossible standard. For example, the manga of Attack on Titan is almost 30 volumes now, and one of the central characters, Hanji Zoe, has not ONCE had their gender specified in any way shape or form.

Because Japanese works like that. In japanese, you cannot be any more clear than saying "My Heart/Soul is a woman" (which is a more clear translation, as the "at heart" one uses an english phrase that I feel like many people get hung up on).

Especially in a shonen manga like One Piece that is set in a very fantastic world, where you don't really encounter a need to specify a gender.

So when a person from the trans community themselves says that "My heart is a woman" completely suffices as expressing their gender identity, thne PLEASE just listen to someone who knows more about the subject than you? And really sorry but having a gay friend does not give you an authority on the topic.

It'll be very easy for a later chapter to reveal the Kiku identifies as a man after all, but making it even more obvious than "my Heart is a woman" is not gonna be that easy. (You might even argue Oda could be scolded by his Editor at Jump if he brings it up again)

The Problem is that you hear some random prisoner call Kiku a young lad, and you jump at changing all the pronouns to he/him.

MAN until proven otherwise is your priority over Transwoman until proven otherwise. Even though, like I said, we tell you that "I am a Woman at Heart"/"My Heart is a Woman" is sufficent evidence.

Because to me, and many other, this was not a reveal that Kiku is a "man", it was a reveal that Kiku is a "transwoman".

But you insist that YOU decide what sufficent evidence is, and you set it at a bar impossible to reach through english-japanese discrepencies and translations.

This is not just about Kiku, you essentially board off any character from possibly ever being recognized as trans unless they are ridiculous exaggerations like Ivankov.

I hope you get my point."

More on note of the current discussion: I appreciate the effort to remove the pronouns entirely, and if that is the only way you will go about not using he/him, fine. But I really cannot believe using they/them is considered weirder? It's used everywhere, real life, newspapers, TV, movies. If you have never hear the use of singular they/them, you might wanna expand your horizon a bit.

Also little call out to SeaTerror, I'm pretty sure this conversation is supposed to be civil, so, behave. And also maybe work on your reading comprehension because you seem to be completely missing some points. I know this conversation has gone on for a long time, but there is a lot to read, but there's no point in taking part in a discussion if you don't properly read the points and do your best to understand what point is made. But just in case that is asking too much, let me repeat a point I have made, with examples, before: The stance of Wano itself (or feudal Japan, which please do not equate reference to actual narrative as an argument, theories sure, but that is not a solid argument) on this topic is irrelevant to the discussion. We talk about Kiku, and the way she should be referred to by english (reporting) standards.

(BLou-Lilie (talk) 07:01, July 7, 2019 (UTC))

I recently noticed that Kikunojo looks a lot like Kikuhime, a non-canon character from an expo in 2017 who is unequivocally a woman, and residing in Wano, so with that and Kiku's very clearly feminine appearance and behaviour, I would say as far as self-identity goes, Kiku considers herself a woman.

However, it would seem the One Piece world's reaction to this is treating her as a man.

I would say that the fact that as a Red Scabbard with the mask on and in a fighting context she's perceived as a man is irrelevant, since the mask being her way to reveal her previous identity, and the face underneath being real flesh as far as we know, I highly doubt being put in a non-Red Scabbard context would make her suddenly act more manly.

However, this is a complex issue. For once, all previous instances of transgender characters in One Piece have been depicted as either comically ugly and manly (possibly offending some people), or as magically being changed into biological women with 100% XX chromosomes (which I guess would turn them into cos women?).

So until more cases like Kiku's arise if they do,we should simply gather clues. Wait for her to interact with more characters and make a count of the times she was handled as a woman and those times as a man. Also taking into account whatever Oda or Kiku herself have to say on the matter.

As of now however, whoever on the wiki has the power to lock down threads which I assume would be admins or even global admins, seems to have another opinion, and we must respect that too. We might disagree but the wiki's authorities are important too and without them the wiki would be a mess.

I'm sure this will be resolved sooner than later leaving everyone satisfied with the result.Fumbsiro (talk) 07:59, July 7, 2019 (UTC)

Sign your edits please. AlexPlayzz (talk) 08:09, July 7, 2019 (UTC)

I already did, I added 5 tildes (~s) one after the other like the wiki says to do, but for some reason it didn't work for me and doesn't show my name.Fumbsiro (talk)

"But understand we are in real-life, and can use real-life terms in order to make things simpler to understand."

Actually we can't due to wiki policy.

[//onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Sword?diff=1462743&oldid=1457086 https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Sword?diff=1462743&oldid=1457086] This is an example of real world terms being removed.

Also Fumbsiro it's 4 ~ not 5. SeaTerror (talk) 08:35, July 7, 2019 (UTC)

Just as a quick note, "my heart is a woman/man" is a common phrase used by transgender people in Japan. Seems pretty clear-cut to me, Kiku is a trans woman. Maybe Oda's finally started changing with the times, as he should. 2600:8800:1804:5000:65A5:3459:6BF0:75E7 13:12, July 7, 2019 (UTC)

Agree with anon above, if you try searching 体が男、心が女 into google, you'll see a LOT of posts about transgender people in Japan, seems to be a more casual way of describing being trans than トランズジェンダー (toranzujendaa, transgender), which can be a big of a mouthful. Same with MTF. Out of curiosity, what sort of 'confirmation' is it you guys are after? Is it because woman 'at heart' sounds more whimsical than, say, 'my soul is that of a woman', even though the implications are there in the Japanese?120.154.64.83 13:38, July 7, 2019 (UTC)anon

Official translation says "This one is a woman at heart". And here I thought this couldn't get more vague. Not sure how and if that help. Rhavkin (talk) 20:56, July 7, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah I didn't expect it to really help.

心は女: No matter how you end up translating it, the japanese phrase itself is used to describe identifying as a woman in japanese.

[//madeingender.com/?p=285 http://madeingender.com/?p=285]

They literally use this in their definition for Transgender.

(心: Heart, Mind, Soul; 体: Body; 女: woman; 男: man

If you search 体は男 心は女 (Body is male, Mind/Heart is female) on google you'll find pretty much exclusively results about transgender (Even if you don't know japanese, since it's all katakana the word トランズジェンダー sticks out pretty well among hiragana and kanji.)

To a japanese audience there is no doubt. This is literally how you say you identify as a woman. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 22:43, July 7, 2019 (UTC))

Some questions: 180.190.183.226 00:46, July 8, 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) Kiku's line about being "Woman at heart" is constantly being brought up as proof that Kiku's a transwoman. It's also apparently used in the definition in the link above. That being said, has this line been said exclusively by transwomen or have non-transwomen also said it? Answering this could help answer determine if the line really is that clear. The line in English after all can have different interpretation as based on some coments here. Would it have different interpretations in Japanese as well?
 * 2) It's constantly thrown out that Kiku is a transwoman. Has the idea that Kiku might simply be an onnagata been considered at all? Kiku's whole character is one big reference to onnagata apparently. Onnagata are male Kabuki actors who play female roles. They are referred to as male from what quick little research can be found. They aren't transwomen just like how western male actors who play female roles aren't transwomen by default. Would details about onnagata like these be considered in the topic about Kiku's gender?

Replying directly to 180.190.183.226:

BLou-Lille seems to have found relevant info on the matter, however, so that is likely necessary. As SeaTerror said before, we cannot use terms that do not exist in the series to define characters, which is why we cannot say, in the wiki, "Kikunojo is trans". Since there is no indication Kabuki theatres exist in Wano, Kikunojo can not be an onnagata. However, the character could have been inspired in them. In fact, many Onnagata would live as women even outside the theatre (so they were, basically, women), and it would make sense if you saw Kiku as a "woman in a male body", which fits trans woman japanese definitions, as we have seen. If you search for transgender people in Wikipedia, some Onnagata are indicated as early examples of trans people, as these specific actors preferred to live as women (nothing seems to indicate they were forced to, so, of course, they preferred to); that's what being trans is, identifying and living as a gender you weren't "born as" (for lack of better and simpler terms).

As for SeaTerror: I'm not saying we should use real life terms in the wiki entry. However, outside of wiki entries, we can use them to facilitate speech. I don't think that is an issue. When one says "Kiku is a transwoman", they are not suggesting for that to be included in the wiki entries, necessarily; they are saying Kiku was born without a vagina/uterus, but still is a female.

General reply: The madeingender link makes everything clear. Now, there should be no doubt that "someone with the body of a male and the mind/soul/heart of a female is Male to Female, or MtF". It is a japanese resource and uses the specific terms we have been looking for, making it a clear indication Kikunojo is trans.

If you guys still find this insufficient, we can also list the arguments for "Kikunojo is male" and "Kikunojo is female".

For instance: the use of the pronoun "sessha", the "nine red scabbards" title being gendered and the disguise of "O-Kiku Tea Poster Girl" are the arguments for Kikunojo having been disguised as a woman, and being actually male.

The arguments in favour of Kikunojo being female: The idea that "sessha" is not necessarily a gendered pronoun, because there is no "female samurai pronoun", making it valid for female samurai to use, the "Madeingender" japanese LGBT resource indicating "male body female heart/soul" means "male to female transgender" (i.e. a female) and the fact Kikunojo has never been called a male in any other situations until Chapter 948. Even then, Kikunojo never said they were a man, instead, adding that their mind is of a woman, fitting our "trans woman" japanese definition.

The only thing we do not have an explanation for is the gendered "Nine Red Scabbards" title, but considering there are  two arguments (sessha being a samurai pronoun, not necessarily male, and Kiku using words that are how trans women describe themselves) vs. one (Nine Red Scabbards gendered title in Japanese), Kiku should be included in the "Female" category and have all pronouns switched to female, unless if an official resource says they are not. I think that, based on the madeingender website, this discussion should end: it's now clear Kiku used words that define trans women in Japan. 03:05, July 8, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

If we're listing arguments there's also Kiku referring specifically to herself as a woman in chapter 916, as well as the Kin'emon scene:

When Kin'emon introduces her he doesn't mention her being a man, which granted like I said is not a topic often brought up in japanese, or her being in "disguise". But when Sanji points out them being very "friendly" together, Kin'emon could have easily said "Kiku really is a man", since there's no need for disguises, these are all allies in hiding together, but he doesn't. He says "He already has a wife".

At this point I really feel like the evidence is overwhelming. And like Lumiruka mentioned, it's not necessary to refer to Kiku as a "transwoman" on the page, if you want to keep "real word terms" out. Just leave the pronouns as she/her.

(BLou-Lilie (talk) 05:50, July 8, 2019 (UTC))

If kokoro ga onna desu has been used by people other than transwomen, it's very hard to find it. Looking up transgender celebrities in Japan shows the constant use of 'body is man and heart is woman', and this is used in the context of 'transgender' within Japan. So I think yes, it's almost exclusively used for transwomen, and the wiki should reflect this (and yes, I am searching in Japanese). 129.94.8.155 02:43, July 8, 2019 (UTC)anon

I had failed to adress 180.190.183.226 's response earlier, so:

I really don't know how I can make this any more clear, but since beyond a reasonable doubt is not enough I'll explain some more groundwork.

心 is more than a word, it's a concept. It's your heart, your soul, your mind, your spirit, your feelings, it's your very being. 心は女 is esseantally that equals woman. There is no way to not understand that. And maybe it's not exclusively used by transwoman, it could very well be used by a cis woman too. Just by anyone who thinks their very being is a woman.

What many seem to misinterpret the "at heart" part to mean is wrong. It's been a while but Rhavkin said this

"The only time I would say I'm "a woman at heart" was if I was a man, who identify as a man, want to be address as a man, but not be confined by male common acts, and prefer female act including wearing female clothing and makeup, refrain from arguments (like when Kiku hid behind Zoro in Bakura Town), show a caring nature (as shown towards Tsuru, Tama, etc.), and show affection openly (hugging Kin'emon)"

THAT "at heart" uses an entirely different phrase in japanese.It's 根っから, which can mean "at heart", "by nature", "through and through", you get the idea.

Again, I cannot stress the importance of the meaning of 心 enough. Saying your 心 is a woman is saying you are a woman. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 08:03, July 8, 2019 (UTC))

Stephen Paul, the official translator for One Piece uses she/her pronouns for Kiku. I think that pretty conclusively answers the question on what pronouns the wiki should use. 103.217.166.177 13:20, July 8, 2019 (UTC)anon

For reference, Stephen Paul, who like anon said is the official One Piece translator, was on the newest episode of the One Piece Podcast, and he (as well as the other people on the podcast) exclusively refers to her as "she/her".

Anyone who wants to check it, one of the times they talk about her reveal was at around 1 hours 30 minutes in.

[//www.onepiecepodcast.com/2019/07/08/episode-577-oppa-kappa-style/ http://www.onepiecepodcast.com/2019/07/08/episode-577-oppa-kappa-style/] (BLou-Lilie (talk) 14:01, July 8, 2019 (UTC))

Around an hour 24 minutes they start talking about the chapter and their thoughts, including the Kiku reveal, and an hour 28 is when Stephen Paul inputs his thoughts. She/Her pronouns are used the entire time. 103.217.166.177 14:22, July 8, 2019 (UTC)anon

Oh Stephen Paul said something so we should do what he did. Timwe to move Zoro's page to Zolo, Nekomamushi's page to Cat Viper, and Inuarashi's page to Dogstorm SeaTerror (talk) 18:02, July 8, 2019 (UTC)

So you're just gonna not adress all the evidence above for the sake of making a whiny comment because that's the only point you can contest? Because I for one am trying my best to adress and challenge the opposite's counter arguments and provide any missing background knowledge.

It's been said many times to "wait for the official translation", and here we have the official translator using she/her pronouns, precisely what we're discussing, so you'd think it's reasonable to assume that those will be the ones he'll also use in the official translations moving forward.

But even if you want to disregard him, you didn't even try to fight the arguments I made before that. If there's something you still don't get I'll be happy to help. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 18:43, July 8, 2019 (UTC))

We already had the official translation. Official translation means from the Viz manga release, not the translator's personal opinion. This discussion is literally pointless anyway since most people arguing in support of female can't even vote. SeaTerror (talk) 18:58, July 8, 2019 (UTC)

The discussion isn't useless if there's people willing to listen to reason and aknowledge the other's side. You know, cause people might change their minds when they've listened to all the evidence?

But clearly that's a foreign concept for you. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 19:03, July 8, 2019 (UTC))

This isn't just the translator's personal opinion, this is their personal opinion that's been formed after chapter 948, after the translator did the official translation for VIZ. If the translator is using she/her pronouns after chapter 948 then it stands to reason he will continue to use these pronouns moving forward in the manga. Very disappointed that you've decided to say this discussion is pointless since some people can't vote. The whole point of a discussion is to talk with one another and discuss the facts presented, not dismiss them out of hand.103.217.166.177 01:12, July 9, 2019 (UTC)anon.

I also don't understand why the translator's opinion would be invalid. I am certain they have a better understanding of Japanese than we do, and since it's a professional work, it's to be expected they must be aware of multiple topics when translating a manga chapter. If that is how he interprets it, I'm very inclined to believe him, unless if there are multiple other opinions from professional translators, or evidence, pointing in another direction... which is not the case at hand.

Text interpretation is very different from romanisation (Zolo, Ruffy...) or translated names (Cat Viper, Dog Storm, Dogtooth). The last two are much more prone to opinion.

02:04, July 9, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

"Official translation says "This one is a woman at heart". That's the actual translation from Viz's release. Anything on the podcast is personal opinion and invalid to what official English source means. SeaTerror (talk) 03:30, July 9, 2019 (UTC)

Yes, and being a "woman at heart" is akin to being a woman. I don't understand what else is there to say on the matter.

03:43, July 9, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

That's the exact same thing being disputed right now. If it was actually clear then it would actually be stated. SeaTerror (talk) 03:50, July 9, 2019 (UTC)

It was unclear at the beginning of the discussion, alright, but the discussion has progressed, and we have learned new information on the matter. It's not like all this text and exchanged opinions went to waste.

We know and understand there are LGBT japanese resources showing the expression (heart of a woman), quite literally, means they (the person saying it) are a female, looking for the term in japanese seems to return transgender people, and the official translator (someone well-versed in Japanese) for One Piece says Kiku is a woman (based on what we've seen thus far).

This is not about being politically correct or not, it's about fact.

Even if it is "unclear", it is not unclear everything indicates Kiku is a woman, regardless of what's in their pants. What else do we need to show Kiku's true gender?

What exactly makes it unclear right now?

Furthermore, the official translator's interpretation, shown in the podcast, will reflect in the official translation. That means: the pronouns used for Kiku will remain as "she/her", and, as mentioned before (by BLou-Lille I think), most interactions in Japanese are gender neutral, meaning it is the translator's interpretation of the text that gives us the pronouns we apply in wiki. It is not a mere "opinion".

If Kiku is to receive a different treatment, there should be a clear reason as to why: otherwise, we will have to revise the pronouns of each and every character, as we have previously obtained those from official resources. Correct me if I am incorrect on this.

04:30, July 9, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

Gender is confusing. The reason why it leads to debates like these is because the concept is subjective. It’s about what a character considers themselves to be. If a character feels that they are a human in heart when they’re actually a fishman, are we going to refer to them as a human? If a character feels that they are 20 years old in heart when they’re actually 60, are we going to refer to them as a 20 year old? No! Why? Because this is a factual based wiki. Therefore, in my opinion, we should stick to an objective categorisation, namely biological sex. 04:50, July 9, 2019 (UTC)

So it was argued that Kiku's use of sessha as an argument to indicate lack of clarity was not sufficient enough because sessha is not a gendered "I." What is the evidence behind this claim? A simple search would indicate that sessha is used exclusively by males (some even specifically say male samurai). Furthermore, it was argued that Big Mom also uses a male "I," so this can't prove that Kiku is a man because different genders can use different pronouns. Putting aside that it isn't exactly a comparable argument, it is because of this very reason that Big Mom uses a male "I" that we can use this to disprove the "female samurai don't have a pronoun so they must use sessha" claim. Just as how nothing prevents Big Mom from using a male pronoun, there is nothing preventing Kiku from using a female pronoun. There is no evidence to indicate that a female samurai can't use female pronouns. It is an assumption to say sessha was used by Kiku to show her/his status as a samurai. And it is because of this point that makes one question whether it is set in stone whether to fully consider Kiku a she. Nightmare Pirates (talk) 05:12, July 9, 2019 (UTC)

Nice job trying to use ridiculous-in-comparison examples to try to discredit one side of the argument Lelouch. This is a factual based wiki bouncing a very sensitive issue back and forth right now. Hence why people haven't been able to settle on just one answer and why people are fighting tooth and nail to get the people in authority to understand that Kiku is a trans woman. I've already said my piece on the matter, I just didn't want to let what you said stand. Sorry.

Regards, That Guy that Says Things (talk) 05:30, July 9, 2019 (UTC)

No it is still unclear since the manga itself doesn't actually say "I'm a woman". "This is a factual based wiki" You don't say. That must be why the wiki hasn't stated Kiku is female. SeaTerror (talk) 05:39, July 9, 2019 (UTC)

To Lelouch:

Hey, I understand how you feel. Stuff like gender can be confusing, I completely agree. But the fact is that, since we know what Kiku identifies as (a woman), there is no reason not to use that. We shouldn't avoid something just because it's confusing to you. If the individual tells you how they identify, you can't really get more objective than that. Until then, we can simply use pronouns for what the individual is (or seems to be) comfortable being treated as. Nobody's going to use male pronouns for a character just because they're constantly called "a boy", "a tomboy".or "boyish" and they're clearly weirded out by it: but if they embrace it, then it becomes acceptable to use these.

Comparing age and species to gender is not an apples-to-apples comparison, because the first are determined by our biology, while the latter has no forms known to science (AFAIK) to be measured without consulting the individual.

Unlike species and age, it has been shown many individuals, regardless of reproductive organs (and even if they are intersex) can identify with varied gender identities, and not respecting that is, quite literally, detrimental to their health in many ways. I was born with a penis, I'm a dude, but I'm certain I would feel terrible being treated everywhere as a girl. Dunno about you guys, but if you like that idea and think you are 100% a guy, maybe you're thinking wrong.

Not to mention, some One Piece characters don't even have a standard biological sex (Ivankov and Inazuma, for instance), we don't even know what was in their pants when they were born, and, in real life, we know biological sex is not that simple, either. There's intersex people, for instance.

Anyway, point is: gender isn't something you can tell just by looking at a body. I don't think anyone here checks genitalia before deciding what pronouns to use, and that's because gender isn't something determined by what's in your pants. I'm not going to get more into that topic because I don't think a discussion on "what is gender" is going to be beneficial for us: if you don't understand, research and find out what Biology and Sociology currently accept.

To Nightmare:

About "sessha" specifically, I understand a search will say it is a pronoun used by "male samurai". However, there is no "female samurai" pronoun. The closest is "warawa", which was used by women from samurai families, but these women were not samurai per se (the warriors). It is also used by nobility nowadays (see Hancock, she uses it all the time). Sessha is used exclusively by males, yes, but is there any female samurai warrior pronoun we know of? Sessha is perfectly fine; besides, if it were really a gendered pronoun (instead of a pronoun used by males), Chopper would have never been surprised to hear Kiku is a (biological) male. Furthermore, an official translator could not say Kiku is a woman if sessha really did indicate gender. I'm certain an official translator knows more about japanese pronouns than we do.

It was argued Big Mom uses male versions of I (ore and boku), yes, but Oda himself has said these are also used by women, so yeah, we can ignore that.

About your statement that "nothing indicates female samurai can't use female pronouns", there is a lack of female samurai throughout history and fiction, but what we do know is that samurai (male, of course, but the samurai warriors we are talking about were all male, not "of the samurai social caste") used the term "sessha" to identify themselves as Samurai. Samurai can use other pronouns, yes, nothing is prohibiting them from doing so. But when they use "sessha", it is to identify themselves as samurai, and even wikipedia can attest to that. Why else would they use such a specific pronoun? It is not an assumption to say "Kiku uses sessha to show her status as a samurai" when it is a pronoun specific to samurai. If Kiku wanted to use a male pronoun, she could have picked from a handful others, that are seen as "male pronouns".

To SeaTerror:

This has been said before, but the manga does not say "I'm a woman" because Kiku was not born with "the body of a woman". Bodies are still commonly associated with gender, so Kiku's situation is that of a (trans) woman, as described here. "The body of a male, but the soul/heart of a woman".

The manga says "I am woman in heart/soul", or "My soul/heart is of a woman", which is how (trans) women see themselves in Japan. If One Piece were western, then, perhaps, your argument could be plausible.

05:48, July 9, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

Slight clarification. I did not mean to imply that sessha itself solely indicates male and that it is the big reason why any other argument against her being "male" is wrong. What I meant was, it serves as an indicator that Kiku has no qualms with using a "traditionally" male pronoun to identify herself. As for why Chopper was not surprised by her use of sessha, I can only assume that it is because she is a samurai. If Chopper connected the dots after knowing that she was a samurai, he would not question the use of sessha. However, before he found out Kiku was a samurai, Zoro did display shock at the use of sessha. So while Chopper knew she was a samurai before she used sessha, Zoro didn't and it came off as shocking to him. But again, all of this is irrelevant, because it has nothing to do with "Kiku is only a man because she uses sessha," but more so of "Kiku has no qualms with using a male pronoun herself, so it remains unclear." Of course this is reliant on the identification of sessha as a male pronoun, which is debated here, but this is precisely why we can't be too sure. If there is debate, there is not 100% certainty. However, I agree that what we do know is that Kiku also has no qualms about being referred to as she (I think she has been called she, at least), but does that mean that she disagrees with being called a he?Nightmare Pirates (talk) 06:26, July 9, 2019 (UTC)

We edited at the same time so quick addition to Nightmare: You could arge saying "I'm a woman at heart" in response to be called a man indicates her disagreeing. Eitherway I wanna quickly point out, again, that Kiku refers to herself as a woman in chapter 916.

Language is evolving literally as we speak. I can't provide a link for every bit of background knowledge missing, but I'm trying my best so you can understand. And Nightmare, one of my points was that if Wikipadia says sessha=male and ore=male, then using sessha as evidence Kiku identifies as a man is faulty, if you don't apply the same standards to Big Mom. Now Ore has one thing going for it over sessha: It is still being used today. Prnouns that according to Wikipedia "should" be for men are increasingly being used by women and girls too. Because, like I explained, status and traits are associated with pronouns; and those status and traits are associated with genders. So to break through the very strict gender norms applied in japan, women have started using "male" pronouns because a woman should also be able to be tough, be impolite, or in this case, be a samurai.

This is a shift in language and society, and as the SBS with Oda clearly suggests, it's a change that Oda includes in his manga by giving women pronouns that are associated with men. (not everything in this is relevant but you might learn something: [//www.lingualift.com/blog/gender-differences-in-japanese/ https://www.lingualift.com/blog/gender-differences-in-japanese/] )

And SeaTerror, since you apperently missed me explaining this before, don't worry, I'll repeat this point just for you:

The English phrase "at Heart", can come from different japenese phrases, depending on what the original intention was. I sure hope I do not have to provide an explanation for the concept of "lost in translation", you might just get it by this example:

What you, SeaTerror, interpret the english "at heart" as, is 根っから in japanese. It can mean "at heart", "by nature", "through and through", you get the idea. [//jisho.org/word/%E6%A0%B9%E3%81%A3%E3%81%8B%E3%82%89 https://jisho.org/word/%E6%A0%B9%E3%81%A3%E3%81%8B%E3%82%89]

But the phrase we have in the manga is 心は女. And I cannot stress the importance of the meaning of 心 enough. 心 is more than a word, it's a concept. It's your heart, your soul, your mind, your spirit, your feelings, it's your very being. [//jisho.org/word/%E5%BF%83 https://jisho.org/word/%E5%BF%83]

When you say 心は女です it's essentially ME*=WOMAN [//www.kanshudo.com/grammar/X%20%E3%81%AF%20Y%20%E3%81%A7%E3%81%99 https://www.kanshudo.com/grammar/X%20%E3%81%AF%20Y%20%E3%81%A7%E3%81%99]


 * with me being my heart, my soul, my spirit, my mind, my feelings, my very being

And, again, this is the way to say you identify as a woman in japanese. [//madeingender.com/?p=285 http://madeingender.com/?p=285]

Now this can be a challenge to translate because you can't always fit both the translation and the meaning into the new language. For me, and many others, "at heart" was easily sufficient to get the idea. But since it was not for you,  here I am explaining it to you.

These are the facts.

(BLou-Lilie (talk) 06:34, July 9, 2019 (UTC))

There is without a doubt that a simple search will reveal that 心は女 will return results related to transgender stuff. And there is also without a doubt that 心 means "heart" when directly translated but can also mean soul/spirit. The phrase "body of a man, soul of a woman" can be used in other scenarios, even if language has evolved to using it as a reference for transgender as well. Take the word "gay" for example, it used to mean "happy, cheerful," but now means something completely different. That doesn't mean that someone can't use the word gay for happy, even if literally no one will think of happy as the meaning. However, 心は女 does not appear as clear cut as the word gay in eradicating another meaning. 心は女 can still be interpreted as something else. It could still just simply mean that "My feelings (a definition you provided) are that of a woman," leaning towards the indication that Kiku acts like a woman, but not necessary "is a woman." Yes, 根 can be better used to indicate "heart/nature", etc..., but that's not to say that 心 can't. Nightmare Pirates (talk) 07:01, July 9, 2019 (UTC)

That is not the kind feelings it is, that is not the context in which it would translate as feelings, I'm just trying to make you understand the concept of 心. And 根 by itself is root, source, basis, one's nature. the specific meanings come into play depending on the context, if they're used in a word (with hiragana for example) or together with another Kanji. 心 is what you are, it's a very meaningful word in japanese, if you say your 心 is a woman, there is no way of misunderstanding that. Japanese works different than English. Words are more based in concepts.

[//qz.com/946438/kokoro-a-japanese-word-connecting-mind-body-and-spirit-is-also-driving-scientific-discovery/ https://qz.com/946438/kokoro-a-japanese-word-connecting-mind-body-and-spirit-is-also-driving-scientific-discovery/]

"There is without a doubt that a simple search will reveal that 心は女 will return results related to transgender stuff."

"However, 心は女 does not appear as clear cut..." Are you even listening to yourself at this point?

You are bending over backwards to find any 1% possibility of your stance despite being confronted with overwhelming evidence, as you admit yourself: Without a doubt. Oda uses modern japanese language trends in his work. It's ridiculous to deny the current relevance of the phrase.

(BLou-Lilie (talk) 07:27, July 9, 2019 (UTC))

I am listening to what I am saying and let me make myself clear. Searching up 心は女 will show stuff about transgender, just as how searching up gay will show up LGBT stuff as well. There are still other definitions, believe it or not. I never said "without a doubt" that Kiku is not a transgender woman. I'm saying there is doubt and that is why this debate is here and that is why there are people that argue for going with the default of male. Nightmare Pirates (talk) 07:39, July 9, 2019 (UTC)

But what about the context? When someone asks "Are you straight" and you reply "I'm gay" it would be ridiculous to assume that you meant you're cheerful. Because Context. Would you argue that a person might have meant "happy, cheerful" instead and put the burden of proof on the people who say it means gay as in the sexual orientation?

When someone asks if you're a man, and you reply "心は女" it's ridiculous to assume you mean anything but that you identify as a woman. And I hate to break it to you, but making male the default for a character referred to as a woman before, expressing themselves as a woman (through looks and behavior), calling themselves a woman, and saying 心は女です (which again clearly means they identify as a woman), just because one other character called them a man is an inherently transphobic stance and you might want to reevalutate your personal biases.

And idk if you speak japanese, but I do, I study japanese language, culture and history (japanology) and to me it is very clear cut. Much more clear than your example of "gay", since, you know, the entire concept of kororo 心.

(BLou-Lilie (talk) 08:26, July 9, 2019 (UTC))

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that saying the default gender for someone born as male is male would be considered transphobic. It would be transphobic if I called a confirmed trans character by the gender they do not prefer. Kiku is not confirmed, we can only assume independently of the wiki. Yes, Kiku first debuted as what we thought was a born female character, and as such her default gender was female. When we found out Kiku was a man (the at birth kind), the default gender was corrected to male, and if we decide that Kiku is a transgender woman, the gender would be female. This is normal in any society. Now if you insist that it is transphobic to say that normally what you are born as is what is used to identify gender, for the sake of having an orderly discussion, I apologize. Nightmare Pirates (talk) 09:12, July 9, 2019 (UTC)

Just something to add. Kiku's reveal happened alongside when the other Red Scabbards revealed their identities. It's a random prisoner that identifies Kiku as a man but it's done in the same fashion as Raizo being identified as Fukurokuju's rival, Kawamatsu being identified as being a yokozuna along with being a samurai, and Hyougoro's identity being reconfirmed. Wouldn't this mean that Kikunojo is renowned throughout Wano as being a beautiful swords"man"? I don't know if this helps but if Kiku's fame comes from being a man, shouldn't that be taken into consideration as well? It maybe a random prisoner but it should at least be taken into consideration than just simply dismissed as "the public's opinion doesn't matter". Also this matter maybe clarified in future chapters. If in future chapters Kiku is treated/referred to as a man by other characters, would such info be taken into consideration?180.190.163.46 09:22, July 9, 2019 (UTC)

Technically, the prisoner saying that Kiku is renowned as the most beautiful swordsman would not have leverage over her gender. Kiku could have decided to change genders since that was the past and this is now. Also, I predict that there will be more instances where Kiku is referred to as male by some characters, but there will be more instances where Kiku will be referred to as "she." Considering Kiku looks like a girl, people aren't going to call her a he unless they know her identity/past. Nightmare Pirates (talk) 09:35, July 9, 2019 (UTC)

So Kiku could have decided to change genders in the time between then and now. From everyone's point of view, it was 20 years ago since Kiku was in Wano in the past. From Kiku, Kin'emon, Momo, and etc.'s point of view, it was mere weeks to months ago since they were in the past thanks to Toki. So in a relatively short amount of time from Kiku's perspective, Kiku decided to change genders. Don't know if that's a believable time frame for such a situation but that kinda is still an assumption.

The "people aren't going to call her a he unless they know her identity/past" may not hold water in some cases. Considering Japanese doesn't have "she" and "he" pronouns as far as could be quickly researched, some translators are probably going to have characters refer to Kiku as a "she" regardless if the character in question knows Kiku's identity. Kinda out of political correctness and such as apparently demonstrated here.180.190.163.46 09:59, July 9, 2019 (UTC)

That's not exactly what I meant, Nightmare. I mean it's a problem when you ignore all of Kiku referring to herself as a woman, Kiku expressing herself as a woman (the way you dress and act is a form of gender expression), and again, saying she is a woman, over someone referring to her as a man. If you were to sort these by order of importance, Kiku's personal stance would stand way above this prisoner, the public, or the biological gender at birth. Giving any of these more importance than Kiku's own stance is the problem. The way the public sees you is not what you are. I mean, Usopp is know as GOD, and that's not what he is.

The fact that we have so much proof against "he/him", but some still latch onto the tiniest proof for it, despite it being way less imporant than the proof against it, is the problem.

I mean look, we have Kiku calling herself a woman, Kiku expressing herself as a woman, Kiku saying her heart is a woman, Kin'emon (a close friend) treating Kiku like a woman, Kiku being treated like a woman by everyone up to the newest chapter and cleary accepting that as normal for her, against one guy calling her a man, which she response to by reiterating her being a woman, and then maybe if you insist on sessha, which we have discussed a lot already is not even a solid argument.

"Considering Kiku looks like a girl, people aren't going to call her a he unless they know her identity/past." That's part of the point. Say if someone would be outed by someone else as trans, like you know nothing except you assumed they were a woman before but now someone says they are/used to be a man. Would you just switch pronouns?? (BLou-Lilie (talk) 10:02, July 9, 2019 (UTC))

I'm not ignoring Kiku expressing herself as female nor ignoring the fact that Kiku said "My heart is that of a woman." I support recognizing and emphasizing these points in the article. I don't think anyone is against that on this wiki. What we are not recognizing is that this means how you have explained it to mean as transgender. The guy indirectly calling her a man only served one purpose - to show that Kiku is (originally) male. Maybe its other purpose is to show how the rest of Wano thought about him. However, if someone else ends up calling Kiku a man directly, that might show that Kiku doesn't mind being called her/his default gender.

Now to reply to the anonymous: Kiku has always been effeminate. We just don't know if him crossdressing means a gender change. And by "call her a he," I meant like their not going to see Kiku as a man. (Look at Urashima or the Straw Hats who all thought Kiku was female.) Kin'emon for one, however, doesn't even call her "O-Kiku," he just says Kiku (if I remember correctly). So not necessarily "he" or "she" but any type of reference to man or woman, be that "swordsman" or "poster girl." Also, I recommend you make an account too 🙃.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 10:17, July 9, 2019 (UTC)

@BLou Could we have a list of your claims of instances with Kiku along with their chapter numbers in order to review them as simple memory may cloud things. Here's a start: It maybe a hassle to go over past chapters but such research maybe necessary to help things along. I cannot recall "Kiku calling herself a woman" as a separate instance from the "A Woman at heart" line. The "being treated like a woman by everyone up to the newest chapter" also needs to reviewed taking into account whether the characters in question know Kiku's true identity. It also needs to reviewed if characters are treating Kiku as a woman or in a gender neutral manner.180.190.183.199 10:59, July 9, 2019 (UTC)
 * Kin'emon interacting with Kiku - Chapter 919 Comment: Kin'emon doesn't really do anything that suggests he treats Kiku like a woman. He is however of note resisting Kiku embracing him which is odd because it kinda goes against what's established of Kin'emon pervy nature. With any other pretty woman, it's most likely he'd accept the gesture. Most likely explanation being that Kin'emon is aware of Kiku being a man and thus treats Kiku as such to some degree.
 * "A Woman at heart" line - Chapter 948

Uhh you just said instances with Kiku, so I'm guessing anything with Kiku and possibly her gender involved? I'll leave out the occasional crowd people calling her a woman though unless it's at a specific point. 913: Kiku introduced as Postergirl, Tsuru (someone close to Kiku) refers to her as O-Kiku-chan, (Kiku also does the girly "Kya!" scream in response to hearin Tama being poisoned); Also Urashima treats her like a woman but he's probably irrelevant 914: Tsuru refers to her as O-Kiku-chan again, also I don't remember reading this in the scanlations, but it sounds like Tsuru says Kiku's living with her? (she says uchi, which could mean both in this town or in tsuru's house specifically, unfortunately she uses Katakana for this, Kanji would have clarified; idk found it interesting so I thought I would mention); Zoro calls Kiku a woman when she jumps on the Komainu 915: Urashima and his drinking buddies talk about Kiku(but who cares); 916: Kiku specifically refers to herself as a woman (in response to Urashima raising his hand against her); she's also referred to as a swordswoman. 917: Tama also refers to Kiku as O-Kiku-chan; 919: (idk if I'd say Kin'emon is resisting, Kiku pretty much tackled him, they fell over and then she essentially sits on him, but I don't think it matters anyway) ; Sanji swoons over Kiku 920: Just on a side note in case anyone was curious, the way Kin'emon talks about Kiku doesn't show anything out of the ordinary from his usual speaking habits. 921: Sanji assumes Kiku is in love with Kin'emon (and says he'll win her over) to which Kin'emon respons tha the already has a wife. If he'd see Kiku as a man, he probably would have brought this up here. I felt like, since Kiku is close with Tsuru and Tama, it was worth mentioning that they refer to her as O-Kiku-chan. That's it for volume 91, which is as much as I have currently time for. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 14:58, July 9, 2019 (UTC))

So far most of these appear to be people treating Kiku as a woman while not knowing Kiku is a man. They're not exactly evidence that says people see the "true Kikunojo" as a woman kind of sense.180.190.183.199 16:36, July 9, 2019 (UTC)
 * Chapter 913 - Urashima treating Kiku as a woman is as far as can be said based on not knowing that Kiku as a man. Treating Kiku as a woman and not knowing Kiku is really a man is kinda significant versus treating Kiku as a woman and knowing Kiku is really a man.
 * Chapter 914 - Kiku's general introduction to the Straw Hats begining with Luffy and Zoro. Since they don't know who Kiku really is at this point, their treatment towards Kiku at this point and onwards is based on the false pretense that Kiku is female just like Urashima has done.
 * Chapter 916 - Don't know about the translation but from the scanlation I read Kiku says that Urashima is not the type of man to use his technique on a woman. Seems like Kiku is saying that Urashima is supposedly not the type of man to use his technique on someone he perceives as a woman. A bit debatable in other words if Kiku is "refering to herself as a woman" in this instance.
 * Chapter 916 - Kiku being refered to as a swordswoman clearly comes from not being recognized a Kikunojo by the crowd at this point and by extension not recognized as a man.
 * Chapter 919 - The resisting kinda matters as Kin'emon is acting in a way as if he is treating Kiku like a man.
 * Chapter 919 - Sanji's swooning over and onward is clearly based on the false pretense that Kiku is a woman.
 * Chapter 920 - Kin'emon talking in a gender neutral way about Kiku is kinda important for this discussion. It means that it's just as likely to be interpreted that Kin'emon was treating Kiku as a man as it maybe interpreted that he was treating Kiku as a woman.
 * Chapter 921 - Don't know what it said in the original but it almost appears that Kin'emon was cut off by Kiku before he could explain that Kiku is a man.
 * Chapter 921 - Kiku mentions that Otsuru didn't recognize Kiku based on the scanlation I read. This pretty much states that Kiku was in disguise as a postergirl for Otsuru's tea shop. This means that Otsuru and probably Otama were treating Kiku without the foreknowledge that Kiku is associated with Kin'emon and more importantly a man. Had they foreknowledge beforehand, their previous treatments toward Kiku may have been different.

On a side note: Has the "Woman at Heart" line been stated by an okama before. It feels like something similar along those lines may have been stated especially during the attempt to convert Sanji. If such a line or similar may have been stated before then it might call into question it's usage with Kikunojo as a indicator that Kiku's a bonfide transwoman and should be referred as such.180.190.183.199 16:45, July 9, 2019 (UTC)

I think you're right in the sense that Kiku was treated as a woman without the knowledge of "O-Kiku is Kikunojo", and it's already established Kiku was in disguise... but I don't see what indicates the gender was also a disguise. At best, you can say it is unclear, but there was no reason for Kiku to hide her gender from her allies (again, Chopper was surprised to hear "Kiku is a man"), and what matters most is the latest chapter, where she said she is a woman (at heart/soul), which, as has been shown, is how trans women identify in Japanese. They don't say "I'm a trans woman" or "I'm a woman", they say "I'm a woman at heart." I have a few ideas as to "why" it is that way, but the reason does not matter, only the facts.

I'm not sure about how relevant an okama/newkama using the phrase is, since it was already in a japanese LGBT resource, but I can definitely check if you believe it will be relevant to the topic at hand. I'll try to find the raws. I also verified Chapter 921 again and I don't see how Kin'emon was cut off, since he had finished his previous sentence before Kiku said anything, but I do think there is a distinction in how Kiku is treated (in comparison to how Nami is treated), which... concerns me, since it means Kiku may be used as a comic relief because of her gender identity. But I hope that's not what happens; maybe Kin'emon was like that because he didn't want to be seen as a cheater (I mean, looking isn't cheating, but Kiku almost seemed like a girl in love). That's not really relevant to the discussion, though. Sorry for going off-track. 17:55, July 9, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

I remember it being said during the Okama Kingdom's introduction where its described as "the island where those with the heart of a maiden gather", so if this passes you may as well have to edit most of the okama articles as well. Also people are jumping the gun to quick with this poll thing and "she" edits without even waiting for next raw chapter to see how characters refer to Kiku.Groosenat0r (talk) 18:01, July 9, 2019 (UTC)

Since it was asked about, I checked real quick, and yeah, in the japanese it says the people who come to the island all have the "heart of the a maiden". It's 乙女の心. (read: otome no kokoro) Essentially the same phrase we've discussed here, except instead of just "woman" it says young woman, likely as a way to romanticise it. (I mean it's a heart shaped sparkling island)  (BLou-Lilie (talk) 18:54, July 9, 2019 (UTC))

Wow, I'm getting Haku-flashbacks... JouXIII (talk) 16:33, July 10, 2019 (UTC)

SHE identifies as female, so all the 'they's should actually be 'she's. if someone says "i'm a woman at heart" you use the right pronouns this person has indicated she wants to use, which in this case is obviously she/her. the PROBLEM with using 'they' over 'she' in this case is you're STILL misgendering by not using the proper pronoun for the character's preferred gender expression and how she wants to be seen in society (clearly not as a man, and clearly not as genderqueer/genderfluid since she SPECIFICALLY used the term 'woman', which indicates a cis gender identification and so should be respected as such.) stamp out transphobia! \o/ Snarkyauthor (talk) 18:36, July 11, 2019 (UTC)

Poll Discussion
Alright, this is getting out of hand, so this is going to be resolved via poll. Unless an issue is raised with it, it will go live on Tuesday at 0:00 UTC. As usual, you must have 300 edits and been on the wiki for at least 3 months in order to vote.

Given the significant sensitivity over the real-world implications of the subject, Kiku's page has been rewritten to be gender neutral until the poll closes, and will remain locked to editing. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 18:56, July 7, 2019 (UTC)

I think the "until clarified by an official source" should be applied to all of the options. Rhavkin (talk) 19:01, July 7, 2019 (UTC)

If neutral wins then we would have to decide to either use they/them or Nightmare's suggestion. SeaTerror (talk) 19:10, July 7, 2019 (UTC)

I’m using we just list our names rather than give an explanation why. The numbers looked confusing at first glance. OishiLover75 (talk) 00:28, July 8, 2019 (UTC)

I unlocked the poll, and changed the starting time to make it contemporary. 06:39, July 9, 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, didn’t know only admins could change that. ST changed back the starting time. 11:28, July 9, 2019 (UTC)

Heads up though, if neutral wins, that only solves the pronouns problem. We would still need to decide what category Kiku goes under.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 11:01, July 9, 2019 (UTC)

THIS ONE'S LOOKIN DONE AND DUSTED, ANOTHER JOB WELL DONE  07:55, July 15, 2019 (UTC)

So in the end the page has gone from less then a 1000 bytes to be over 122,000, and all that changed was her name... Rhavkin (talk) 04:09, July 23, 2019 (UTC)

Age
In the appearance page it says that image is form 25 years ago when it actually is from 45 years ago, aka when kiku was 25 years younger. I can't change it form the phone, but please, do it.

Franfran2424 (talk) 12:13, September 12, 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you got that number, but that was not from 45 years ago since Inuarashi and Nekomamushi are currently 40 years old. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 12:21, September 12, 2019 (UTC)

Gender Identity Terminology
So, since you already had the gender discussion here and respecting her gender identity won (yay) I'm making this its own section.

Some of the terminology used here isnt keeping in line with respectful style guide for referring to trans people.

"Biologically male" should be "Male Assigned at birth" and the language about people being surprised by her "true gender" needs to be changed. They arent surprised at her gender. Her gender is female. They're surprised her gender doesn't match her sex assigned at birth.

The wording also slightly implies she's tricking them, Sanji especially which plays into Trans Panic territory which is yikes.

This isnt all just my opinion either.

GLAAD style guide backs this up.

DemonRin (talk) 16:09, September 26, 2019 (UTC)

My edit summary didn't reflect it, but I did remove those parts from her Straw Hats relationship section, since those were indeed poorly written and problematic.

However, can we really say she was "assigned male at birth"? We have no idea about anything relating to her birth, or when she started identifying as female. I get that saying someone was "born male" has negative connotations irl because it implies a misunderstanding of their identity, but it was stated in the manga that Kiku is biologically male and I don't see an issue with reflecting that objectively - while still making it clear her identity is female - without making further assumptions. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 17:02, September 26, 2019 (UTC)

That is only your opinion since you're posting a real life website that doesn't mention fiction and trying to shoehorn it to a fictional series set entirely in a fictional world. SeaTerror (talk) 18:03, September 26, 2019 (UTC)

Quoting GLAAD style guide: "biologically male," "biologically female," "genetically male," "genetically female," "born a man," "born a woman"

Problematic phrases like those above are reductive and overly-simplify a very complex subject. As mentioned above, a person's sex is determined by a number of factors - not simply genetics - and a person's biology does not "trump" a person's gender identity. Finally, people are born babies: they are not "born a man" or "born a woman."

People assign a value judgement to terms like "Biologically" etc. It's like calling food "Organic" or "Natural". There's an automatic value assignment associated with that being more "Real".

Plus it uses present tense meaning it's basically calling her a man right now when all references to her having been "Male" should be past tense to indicate whatever she may have considered herself before, she's not a "Man" now.

On the assumption front, It isn't really. "Assigned Male At Birth" just means when the person came out of their mother the doctor/parents looked at the kid and said "Yup, looks like a boy" and treated her as such. Even if immediately after that the parents said "I want to raise Kiku as a girl" she was still assigned male when she came out.

The only way you could say she wasn't assigned Male at birth is if it ends up being revealed she was assigned female at birth and Ivankov immediately changed her with the Hormone Hormone Fruit as a baby but we have absolutely no reason to believe that's the case.

If people are waiting for the other shoe to drop thinking she'll be revealed as a Cis woman who's pretending so she can be considered a Samurai or something maybe A good compromise there is to say she was "presumably assigned male at birth"?.

DemonRin (talk) 19:04, September 26, 2019 (UTC)


 * To respond to SeaTerror's comments about "real life vs fiction" argument I dont ever recall Oda confirming in the fictional world of One Piece that the N-Word is considered a slur against black people in universe, can we change Usopp's profile to say he's one? What about calling the Okamas "F*g**ts" is that ok?


 * This real world website is read by real world people so it should reflect proper etiquette in the real world for the readers.


 * DemonRin (talk) 19:37, September 26, 2019 (UTC)

And in this case, the real world seems to have weighed in some posters minds so heavily to the point of having trouble of conflicting between what they personally wanted to see vs. what's objective fact, at least as so far as what's objective in context to a fictional manga world that's definitely inspired by, though not exactly the same as, the real world. If nothing else, I suppose the dozens of posts on here, some arguably more on topic than others, show that an agreeable solution is still able to be reached even after much banter on a complex topic. Great job people. :) Crazyface201 (talk) 07:05, October 25, 2019 (UTC)