Talk:Marines

Article Grading Information:
Grading history (please do not edit):


 * The article was assessed and graded B on 02/02/07 by Angel Emfrbl. Reason: While it does have a suitable article layout, most of the information is left unreferenced. There are also a number of broken links on the page.

Navy or Marines?
Just to let everybody know, Marines is the proper term, so please do not link ot this page my putting Navy(One Piece), just because thats what the idiots on normal Wikipedia put for Marines instead. Also this is the correct page, please do not go moving it to any "Navy" pages.--Cody2526 06:14, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The Japanese text alongside 'Marine' translates to 'Navy'... 'Marine' is just another way of saying 'Navy' so its Navy regardless... But to avoid arguments, I don't want to go further. (read the page itself). Oda just wrote it in a way that made Navy open to more languages, its not the first time he has used another language 'Krieg' in Don Krieg's name is German for war. One-Winged Hawk 21:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * As I have said before, Navy is the most literal translation, likely because it operates as a foreign Navy would, and their name is the Marines. Cody2526 00:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi everybody! I moved the page because Oda writes it as "Kaigun", which is "Navy". I have seen "marine", but never the plural "Marines". Look for me around the site, adding images and getting rid of Wikipedia-like phrases. Oh, and try to guess what my name is a reference to. Rodtheanimegod4ever 00:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Alright, I say we propose a vote on what this article's name should be, as I'm through being a nuisance. Put youn name down under a vote, and, if possible, give a short explanation Rodtheanimegod4ever 16:28, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

While Navy is the more direct Japanese -> English translation, Marine isn't really 100% incorrect. If this was wikipedia I'd go for Navy because they demand the direct translations there then anything (so the article is Navy... Full Stop!). Marine is just another languages way of saying 'Navy' is a more indirect way of saying 'Navy' therefore, because instead of taking one step from Japanese to get the english equallivent of Navy you are taking two. One-Winged Hawk 22:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Navy
Rodtheanimegod4ever 16:26, 3 December 2006 (UTC):As Oda writes it as "Kaigun", I'm inclined to believe he means "Navy". Maybe it'll be asked in an SBS some day....

Marines

 * Marines is just another way of saying 'Navy' (German + French), so when you say 'Marine' you are still saying 'Navy'. To back this up, Oda uses other languages (not just English!) in his manga, such as Don Krieg's name (Krieg means German for War) and Robin's attacks. One-Winged Hawk 22:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is the text I got from AP.net that supports use of "Marine"

"However, Arlong Park has chosen to use Marine as our official translation of "海軍" for a number of reasons:

"Marine" is displayed throughout the manga and anime. "Marine" and its variants are much more common to foreign languages. "Marine" is not an incorrect description of what the kaigun are. "Marine" is not simply a case of Engrish, as its repetition demonstrates.

In Oda's world of One Piece, the "海軍" are called "Marines", so that is what we've chosen to call them as well."

Which I agree so AP.net keeps it so shall we.

Joekido


 * Psst! Joekido... Using another non-wikipedia/Wikia related site here as a back-up for our arguments... Won't help our cause! ^-^' One-Winged Hawk 00:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

While Navy is the direct translation of kaigun and such, it's often not exactly a term most fans, that I know of, use. The main reason being the large letters adorned on the officers' uniforms and flags which to a common English speaker suggests that they are called Marines. I mean wouldn't anyone think they're called Marines especially if they don't know Japanese and only have those bold letters to source from. Also there is a bit of a negative connection often associated with the word Navy due to a certain dubbing company. The company and the terms that it uses causes a lot of problems on wikipedia. This wikia is intended to stray as far away from those problems. In other words, we shouldn't use terms that might suggest that company otherwise there will be more people complaining than helping. Bottom line, Navy is less common and causes more problems especially in a One Piece dominated site.Mugiwara Franky 00:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Compromise
Use "Navy" for organization and "Marines" for members, as VIZ manga does


 * No, fan based; not Viz based. 90% of fans call them the Marines, so we do to. Viz can be as flawed as $kids sometimes. Nemutai! (Justyn 09:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC))

So, if 90% of fans called Luffy Happy Prancing Straw Hat Funny Man, we would, too? That's muy rediculoso. It says on this very page that Marines is a misnomer, used primarily by non-Japanese speaking fans who dislike the dub. Apparently this is the majority of the Japanese version's fans. Search me. I would also appreciate you not criticizing Viz, as it is a very accurate source. Only the names have been changed, and it seems to be the general consensus that people overreact to those as opposed to cutting out three entire arcs just to reach a cute reindeer that they could make plushies out of faster. Excelsior! Rodtheanimegod4ever 03:07, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I have to agree on that notion. We shouldn't use the popular fan based names, it goes back to our Dracule/Juraquille argument elsewhere. Trouble is unlike that there is two words in this case to confuse us all. But as I said before "Marine" means Navy in two different languages, the Japanese text means Navy also. Calling them "Marines" is not completely wrong, your just saying a long route to mean Navy. And I will keep saying that, because everyone seems to forget that when they write a reply to this argument. One-Winged Hawk 08:38, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

...My opinion, in short form: This site is currently not using anything from the dub/English manga as opinion, so doing something like Viz does isn't acceptable. Going by fan names is only acceptable if there's no other way to judge. What I believe (and what other people seem to, judging by our use of the spelling "Bon Kurei" for Bon-chan's name), is that Oda-sensei's names/romanizations are the first thing to go by (unless there's reason to doubt them, but in this case there isn't.) I, frankly, don't care what the kanji mean, I don't care what "marine" means, I don't care what "navy" means, I don't care if it's confusing to people (no, I'm not uncaring, I just am tired of this debate/argument in all the forms I've seen it various places. -_-). If it wasn't written anywhere and people were still trying to insist on writing it as "Marine", then yes, I would insist on making it be "Navy"; but that isn't the case. The author himself writes it as "Marine", that's all that should matter to this whole... thing.

((Sorry if I offended anybody/got too rude/anything like that, I've got a bad headache, which seems even worse because it's Christmas... T_T )) --Murasaki 09:48, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Normally its spoken as Navy though in reference to the manga + anime. The fact both the Kanji + Marines on the same place is whats causing this confusion. The Japanese means = Navy and the Marine means = Navy in this case. Oda has just both terms over and over and over.


 * Speaking of over and over... This is where our debate is going now. Over and over. We better end since soon, or we'll end up as bad as wikipedia where no argument is over in one set debate. :/ One-Winged Hawk 22:33, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, if you go with what's written on the sails and uniforms, this page should be called Marine, and not Marines. Also, in French the 's' would imply a plural form of the noun, which would not make sense in this case (in German the Plural for 'Marine' is Marinen). Marines would be a wrong term for the OP world's naval forces, it should be Marine without an 's' at the end. Marines would be a term for naval soldiers.


 * Actually you would just say "sailors" or in a pinch "Naval soldiers". Marine is a different military job entirely normally. Even if Oda is using another european name here, to an english speaker Marines is a word as well in English for hard tough soldiers in the US army (Lol. "Send in the Marines!"). And we've named it after the soldiers not the force at this point.


 * I just want to say - if we change it to "Marine" though, we might as well change it so "Navy" since THATS WHAT THE JAPANESE TEXT ALSO MEANS!!! *AHEM* Excuse me, but wikipedia insists on literal translations so... I'm used to doing things that way. Leave it as Marines... Its just easier and if ever gets changed I'll be insisting on the Navy thing again. XD One-Winged Hawk 07:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * ok I didn't know this was an active discussion. *ahem*

Proof for Marines:


 * Written on Sails(It's not in plural, but it doesn't matter, it's saying Property of Marines basically)
 * Used by all subs
 * Most commonly used name by fans. Since the fans are the core of the viewers, it's wise to take their usage into consideration
 * I don't want to type out a whole paragraph. But some countries have what they call a "Navy" that is the equivalent of the US or Japanese Marines, and some are called Marines which elsewhere are "navy" so it actually changes based on the country.

On the topic of the last one, the main reason for the debate is that, not only does Oda commonly use other languages and cultures for references, but he also may be referring something. Wikipedia, like said before, is dead set against anything but a literal translation, and if that can't be decided they like to go by dub names since it's "the english version" which if you ask me is cutting us off from other cultures. My argument of Oda possibly not referencing the US or Japanese Navy and Marines, and instead another country's(or something like that) and explaining that Kaigun may not be used as Navy but rather "Naval Forces" AKA Marines.

So to conclude, Arguments for Marine:


 * It's the most literal translation
 * In many countries the Marines are a small group of the Navy.

both of those are basically either moot point or can't be used for one reason or another. Mostly being that we haven't determined a country used for referencing it, nor a romanization or translation aside form the MARINE symbol, but that's used as evidence for Marines.

Wikipedia as a set way of doing things. We decided long ago that the system has major flaws. Look at it, if a person wants it that way, they just have to out-logic anyone who disagrees with them, and they can run an article however they please. The users decide too much, and it doesn't matter, if you can convince others that a page on mushrooms needs to have a section devoted to the Super Mario Bros games, then there you go, that's how the article is set up, and any later attempt to change it will just be arguments that fall on deaf ears. Cody2526 08:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry
Want I wanted to do was write out what each rank was and list those carrying that rank... I removed the info on individuals and gave them their own page to do this.

At some point... I lost some of the ranks. ^-^'


 * Ahem*...

I'll sort this out tomorrow and repair that. Very sorry, my first big mistake. I'm trying to get character pages set up so we can expand on them which is why they were moved in the first place. We can then expand a lot more freely after that. One-Winged Hawk 21:55, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Zatsuyō
I noticed that the name "Chore Boy" is used as a translation of Zatsuyō, this is an incorrect translation; the proper translation of Zatsuyō would be "various tasks". I will change it unless anyone disagrees, it's the same thing with "Kairiki Destroyers". (Justyn 00:47, 1 November 2006 (UTC))
 * Maybe we can think of something else. I know that chore boy isn't an accurate translation, but "odd jobs" or some other equivalent doesn't sound appropriate in this case. After all, we're describing a position they hold, not just what they do... --Murasaki 03:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe we should just use Chore boy instead. It conveys the same idea as odd jobs anyway. Besides it maybe hypocritical if we defend Marines which is not exactly equivalent to kaigun in literal translation and not defend chore boy which is in the same leauge in literal translation. Besides I think more people call them Chore boys commonly in this case.Mugiwara Franky 00:46, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Commodore?
...Why is it listed as commodore here? That's the British use of junshou from what I can tell, yet all the others use the American one... American would have shoushou as "Rear Admiral Upper Half", while junshou would be "Rear Admiral Lower Half"... so why are we using commodore for this rank, while using the American ranks for most others? --Murasaki 03:14, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I have no idea... From what I gather, thats what its ALWAYS been like. Some of the so-called 'American' ranks are actually used by the British ranks too... In the end, I don't suppose it matters does it? Perhaps Commodore/Rear Admiral Upper Half.


 * Personally, I'd like it to say as Commodore - I can barely spell admiral without all that junk around the word...


 * But my spelling is poor at times anyway! XD One-Winged Hawk 00:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Commodore's fine to me, it has a better ring to it, it just confused me. XD And it made the corresponding rank sound funny (we have an upper half without a lower half... XD), but we could always just use the British term for that as well, since we don't have anyone using the rank yet. XD --Murasaki 00:18, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Page locked
Can we perhaps unlock this page for a day or two... I want to add links to a couple of pages. Moral Justice and Absolute Justice in the Justice section. One-Winged Hawk 16:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd also like to have it unlocked, we need to add Smoker and Tashigi to their new ranks... --Murasaki 11:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Page is set so that REGISTERED users can edit. (Justyn 06:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC))
 * I couldn't edit it last time I tried to edit this page. I know that much. Seems fine now though. Might have been something else then, like a site update preventing me from doing so. All I know is it didn't want to let me edit. One-Winged Hawk 07:09, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

New Names from Yellow Data Book

 * The guy with all the X-shaped scars AKA VA Scarface = Doberman
 * The cigar biter is Yamakaji which means "Forest Fire"
 * That super straight guy is Strawberry.
 * Momonga = the bald guy.
 * The man with the cigarette = Onigumo
 * The Vice Admiral from Ace's cover story is Vice Admiral Koomiru. This may mean "Tastes the flavor"
 * The one Franky fought that turned into a bunch of balls is romanized as Berigud so it's "Very Good" sort of like Lieutenant Brandnew.
 * The one that broke Zoro's sword is Shuu(I can't do the U with the - over it)
 * The other one with the glasses is Sharinguru.

Credit for the translations, romanizations, and such, goes to Greg from the Arlong Park Forums, in the One Piece Yellow Speculation thread. I only posted this extra info here so nobody gets confused when they create individual articles for these people. I can just see someone starting an article for Doberman and going "Which one is he again?" So I just reposted it here on the talk page. Cody2526 05:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think we should use the Japanese word for strawberry instead of the direct translation. Strawberry... It sounds so wrong on so many levels. But hey, thats my personal opinion. When I see that in anime its normally a girls name. XD One-Winged Hawk 08:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It's actually written with the kana for the word strawberry, though, not "ichigo". So that wouldn't be accurate. ^^;; --Murasaki 13:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * So Oda lumbered him with a sissy name that we have to stick with. I was hoping it wasn't the case. Oh well. One-Winged Hawk

Merger
I think It would make sense to merge the content of this article into the main article bout the marines. El Chupacabra 13:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree on the basis that everyone may think to look up Marines, but not history of the marines. This is the kind of time I have to draw a line on it. Plus its getting a little difficult to keep up with articles, we're developing a lot of dead end pages suddenly. One-Winged Hawk 13:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, please don't flee, I'm not here to roar you out, LOL. Anyway the reason why I created the History of Marines page was not because to increase page number but to explain the whole story of the marines and what they done in the story so far. Marines page only talks about who they are and there ranks and the people introduced in the series, History of the Marines and what they did during the past and present storyline and yet no one did the page yet and I had not complete it yet but Marines page is big enough so to merge it would clutter the page up.

Joekido 00:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well lets look at the page Justice which was once part of the Marines page... Justice was separated because it spun not only Marines but everything World Government related and therefore is suitable enough to warrant its own page. The history can go alongside the Marines page and it wouldn't even matter Joekido. In fact, one could argue by not having the history of the group on that page you've created two weak pages. We have (had? Is it still there?) a history o n the WG page, we've also got something on the Pirates page. One-Winged Hawk 00:46, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Currently, the main article about the Marines hasn't any history section, and is only 10,519 bytes long (ranked 72 in the long articles list), so a merger would only improve it. El Chupacabra 12:06, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Since no one had done it yet so I had to merge it myself. Why they had not done it is behind me. Mayby my rabid anti-merging rally still scares the commutity -_- if only if they would just listen...but whatever

Joekido 07:28, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know about everyone else... But I kinda forgot about the whole issue. @_@ One-Winged Hawk 11:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Question
If:

Japnese text = "Navy" in English = correct

And:

Marine = "Navy" in German and French = correct

Therefore:

Using "Navy" or "Marine" = same thing = correct

But:

English "Marine" = Japanese text = incorrect

What is:

English "Marine" = Japanese???

I never thought to ask back in the days of arguing over this stupid issue.--One-Winged Hawk 15:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

- "Marine" in japanese is 海兵隊 (kaiheitai)

Preposal
I'd like to ask if we can stop using english words of "Admiral", "Vice-Admiral" etc, etc and just go over to using the Japanese version of the name. Only because a couple of the other Japanese titles can be translated to "Captain". This also means we can retire "Captain" from the Captains page.

How do people feel?

We use Japanese everywhere else, so why do we translate for the marines?One-Winged Hawk 19:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The best part about this would be that it would avoid inconsistent translations. For example, Coby is listed as a Chief Petty Officer, but he'd be a Master Chief Petty Officer according to this list. Also, Helmeppo should be a Chief Petty Officer, but he's listed as Chief Petty Officer Second Class, Petty Officer Second Class, and just Petty Officer at different points on the site. --72.87.79.45 00:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Exactly what I'm pointing out. About the only thing we all agree on is the Admirals, Vice-Admirals and "Smoker" and anyone else at his rank as "Captains" but I think our acceptance is to do with the anime by 4Kids.  One-Winged Hawk 05:54, 21 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The majority I guess is okay from what I can see. Only the Coby and Helmeppo ranks may need fixing as stated.Mugiwara Franky 08:34, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

MY BIG BROTHER!!!
MY BIG BROTHER IS A UNITED STATES MARINE. HIS NAME IS CARTER ANGELO AND HE IS MY HERO. I LOVE HIM AND WANT HIM BACK HOME!! I WANDER WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO BE OUT THERE FIGHTING, AND NOT HAVE A SECOND CHANCE AT SOMETHING ONCE YOU HAVE LOST IT??? I LOVE BEING ABLE TO SLEEP VERY SAFE AT NIGHT KNOWING THAT THE MARINES ARE OUT THEIR FIGHTING FOR OUR FREEDOM!! THANK YALL SO MUCH!!!

--66.21.199.6 07:00, 26 December 2008 (UTC)THE ANGELO'S--66.21.199.6 07:00, 26 December 2008 (UTC)


 * As much it maybe about Marines, not only is this not forum but it's also the wrong site to be talking about such things.Mugiwara Franky 07:13, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Tabs?
What happened to the idea of tabulating this page?--

According to this forum,no one disagrees with tabulation of this page ....so we can go on right?

High-ranking and Low-ranking pages deletion
All the info in both of these pages is already covered in the main marine article in the Marine Members section. Furthermore, the formatting in the main article is much more readable and wastes a lot less room. Bastian964 20:26, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

I agree in deleting it. We should hear more opinions first, though. 12:40, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

"All the info in both of these pages is already covered in the main marine article in the Marine Members section. "

It really isn't. All that the members sections lists are the members, but not the trivia about the rank or the correct translation and kanji Slush 13:15, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

The pages are still not completed, you know Yata, the marine ranks merge? well this is what its all about. Merging the marine ranks into these two subpages. I don't really see the problem with it although that page is still lacking it can be worked on and completed, but there is no reason to delete it.

One thing I would like to discuss is merging the pages that have trivia and more, like those of the admirals, vice-admirals and fleet admirals. I want to know how they should be merged if this idea does not get rejected that is.

@Slush: That's becuase new info was added after the delete tag. However, all the new info that was added still could easily fit on the main page in the Commisioned Marine Officers and Infantry and Sailor Division sections. @Rizicubi: There isn't enough info on the page for one subpage, not to mention two and I don't see how you can expand it significantly. Bastian964 14:59, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I just read the forum on merging the marine ranks (link in the discussion above) and the consensus seems to be to keep the pages with sufficient information and merge the rest into one tab (with links to the pages that are kept). Note that it is three for that strategy and three more for some kind of merging. Why was it done differently from that? It is at least better than what we have now even if it is still just mainly a repeat of information on the marines page/information that could easily fit on the main page. Bastian964 16:45, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Alright, let's get things straightened out: are we putting all the ranks in one page, or keeping it as it is? What are we trying to accomplish here? Should I delete the two tabs? 21:26, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

The suggested options so far are merge the ranks into the main page, merge them into one tab, or keep them as they are. We are also trying to decide whether to keep the ranks that are long enough to have their own page. The strange thing is that one tab and keep ranks that are long enough to have their own page is what was decide originally as far as I can tell but that decision was not followed. Bastian964 12:44, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

I would still like to merge them into the main page and keep the ranks that have enough information for their own page since the only information we have on most ranks is what people have that rank, what they are allowed to wear, and what order the ranks come in (all of which is already on the main page under the Rank System and Marine Members sections).Bastian964 12:50, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

Ehm.. Bump...

Can we decide what to do with the tabs? Its 'candidates for deletetion' and it looks bad.. Also if we keep the tabs, then delete the members that are in the template in the first tab..

I agree with deleting the tabs, and keeping the ranks pages (or at least, put all the ranks into one page, like literary device). 04:38, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Yata, we should just make a page with the marine ranks where all of them are merged and its all gonna be done. I'll take care of changing the redirects for the specified rank section, if you let me

That's the way it was before and it was decided to be too long. It should be left alone and just add the information as it comes. SeaTerror 19:07, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

We hardly need to merge the ranks that are long enough to have their own pages into one really long page. Furthermore, all the other ranks are simply repeats of what is already in the main Marines page so they are already all on one page to begin with. Bastian964 13:09, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

I think we should keep the rank-tabs. Marines is a large organization and to make it easy for reader to understand it needs to be properly tabed. Thou its really pain to seperate what info goes on what tab but it might make easier for anyone to find the info they looking for. i'm just saying Monkey.D.Me 18:29, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

I think that we should delete it as the pages are outdated.... nobody is updating the pages and even adding the filler marines to their respective ranks, so I think that it is better for it to be deleted. Having the main page is equals to having the pages. (Well the pages are also unecessary).Evanalmighty 03:48, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

Nelson
Question, why is Commodore Nelson Royale, listed under "Marines with Unknown Ranks"?

Tersael 06:23, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

That is a very good question. Could someone please fix that? 15:04, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Cause we don't know his rank. And it's not commodore. It's similar to that, but his actual rank was never given. So its best to remove the 'commodore' category out of his article too..

How to add a pic to the Marines template
I just uploaded Kadar pic. But i dunno how to add it into the Marines template. Hcw88 12:01, April 2, 2012 (UTC)

Vice Admiral: 16
http://images.saiyanisland.com/data/597/One-Piece-Film-Z_Scan-42.jpg

That's it. In one of last scans about Film Z, there's a trinagular diagram about Marine ranks. You can see Fleet Admiral, Admiral (3) and Vice Admiral. Near "Vice Admiral" there's a number which identified the maximum number of vice admiral: 16. Literally, the diagrama says Taisho (Sannin) and Chuujo (Juurokunin) that literally means Admirals (three people) and Vice Admiral (Sixteen people).

Now, the first thing I did is to control how many confirmed Vice Admiral appears at the same time in a particular event. Precisely the Summit War. We can see there:

Yes, we have exactly 16 vice admirals!!! Then after the timeskip we have the resignation of Garp and promotion of Smoker. The only one doubt remaining is about Vergo. We can speculate that he became Vice Admiral just a moment after the war and a moment before Smoker arriving in G-5. However, it's just a speculation, then don't mind. What I want to say is that we have now the official anime number of Vice Admirals. Rayleigh92 (talk) 18:28, December 8, 2012 (UTC)

Garp and Sengoku
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/7231/img0008rj.jpg

Sengoku and Garp are confirmed to be yet in Marines as General Inspector (Oomestuke) and Instructor (Kyoukan) in Volume 1000 "Z". Rayleigh92 (talk) 00:17, December 22, 2012 (UTC

Zephyr canon?
Shouldn't Zephyr be considered canon? He is portrayed in several sketches in volume Z, which was written by Oda.

See here. Also, sign your posts with 4 ~ symbols (or the signature button in the editor) please. 05:22, January 5, 2013 (UTC)