Talk:Haki/Busoshoku Haki

Background Section
A lot of the wording in the background section doesnt really make a lot of sense. 173.48.16.6 02:40, February 2, 2014 (UTC)Annoymous

be more specific-- 02:43, February 2, 2014 (UTC)

Caesar Clown
Caesar Clown is Busoshoku Haki user too.

He stabbed Monet's (Logia's) heart instead of Smoker's heart (also Logia).

Not really a confirmation of anything. Logia abilities don't automatically activate (unless they're trained to do so, like Crocodile's) 22:32, February 2, 2014 (UTC)

Uhmmm..NO. Why is this even an active discussion? Gal gave the exlanation, I agree 100%.

Trivia & Hardening Validity
"The reason of this could be that Oda simply decided to use it after the time skip, (especially to demonstrate visually the use of Haki of his main characters, like Luffy, who before the time skip could not use this type of Haki) or he did not get the idea until that time."

12th Supernova, if you can prove that this line is canonical (it's not, it's an assumption based on nothing), then we will use that description. This line of trivia is dangerous because it implies:

1. Marineford war combatants used hardening but we couldn't see it.

2. Oda retconned.

3. But wait it's a visual effect.

For now, we are sticking with my updated description:

'''The Hardening version of Busoshoku Haki, introduced by Luffy after the timeskip, seems to be the preferred and stronger version of Busoshoku Haki by many, if not, all characters who can use it. However, during the Battle of Marineford where some of the most powerful pirates, marines, and shichibukai alike fought, only the invisible application was being used. After the timeskip, flashbacks and characters in the New World proved that the Hardened version was the more common superior application, begging the question why strong combatants in the Battle of Marineford didn't use it.'''

Which states:

1. All strong characters are using hardening in not only the post-TS timeline but also flashbacks.

2. Characters have used the invisible application post-TS but no invisible application has been shown to be superior to hardening.

3. Marineford War combatants didn't use hardening because there is no evidence to support it.

4. It's interesting because they are STRONG characters that didn't use hardening.

5. And that it's a MYSTERY why they didn't use it. No fluff, speculation, or attempts were made to answer this specific question. It just is, because it's trivia.

"Visual cue" and inferred retcon are poor attempts at answering the question. If this was the case, then we wouldn't have multiple instances of hardening being referred to as "hardening" and not just "busoshoku haki". We also wouldn't have people still using invisible CoA.

Nexus32 (talk) 04:38, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

So many things are wrong with both I don't even know where to start. I'm in favor of just canning it completely. And you act like he's never retconned before. 04:46, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

It is most likely a retcon because Luffy is the only one who gives it a specific name. It is probably better to just remove it since both versions contain some speculation. Also, it's pretty rude to declare what we are going with before anyone else has posted. The way discussions like this work is usually majority rules. 04:58, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

I think it's important trivia, cos it is a fairly common question. I'm against removing it completely, and it's not like we've never used speculation about Haki before.

08:25, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

It's one thing to speculate about something solid. It's another thing entirely to speculate about something as uncertain as this. We're running completely blind on the reason behind it. Just say it is unknown why some people's haki has been seen while others' hasn't. 08:30, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. 10:34, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

who knows, maybe it's like the limewater expt we did as kids. blow enough air into the colourless liquid and it becomes milky. keep blowing air and it becomes colourless again. So maybe the use of Haki by the weak and the strongest don't have a blackening effect. sigh.. speculation. Bahamut.Egg (talk) 11:48, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

You're implying that carbon dioxide makes Haki change colour...

11:51, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

Hence, Caesar is the ultimate Haki master. See discussion above.

Anyway, since we're going off topic, can I start a new one? or rather, this one about the Admirals' shield  Bahamut.Egg (talk) 11:56, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

You should make a new section for that. 21:10, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

"Although the black skin effect of its usage is common after the timeskip, it was not seen at all before. The reason for this is currently unknown."

This updated line implies that there is only one form of Busoshoku Haki. This is simply not true and I question whether any of you know anything about Haki. We know there is Hardening and we know there is the invisible application. The black skin effect is most undoubtedly hardening and not just some random effect that people who can use CoA throw in. There is a CLEAR difference. Attempting to convince anyone there is only one form of CoA honestly rubbing thousands of OP fans the wrong way... Here's how it should be worded:

"Although Hardening had existed before the timeskip, it was not revealed to have been used in the past until a flashback with Garp and Chinjao, which was shown after the timeskip.  Before the timeskip, the manga did not show anyone using Hardening. The reason for this is currently unknown."

Nexus32 (talk) 03:05, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

What a coincidence, because I question whether you can say anything without sounding like a rude and pretentious prick. We're going with what we have until we learn more. 04:02, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

If you don't want to be nominated for a ban, perhaps you should carefully consider your next reply. Let's walk through this conversation again. I said exactly why this piece of trivia is incredibly misleading by giving everyone 3 points of speculation/assumptions/jargon it implied. Next, I took the time to revise the piece and left no mystery for what I was implying, as I wrote 5 statements (all of which is factual or can be evinced by manga canon; and all citations of which I will supply if requested) under the summary I wrote. You come in, tell us both summaries are wrong, and say it should just be canned. You did not even try to dispute or contest anything I said yet you expect me to take you seriously. It's your lucky day - I will because you are a respected, experienced editor here. Some random (-PœtaNæs-) jumps in and removes the piece, rewrites with his wording, without even participating in this Talk, after I was instructed not to edit it until we figured it out together. I come in; criticize the updated wording (respectfully) WITHOUT pointing out that I just became a victim of double standards... and you respond by calling me a "rude and pretentious prick." I have to suspect whether this random editor is your mule because you are incredibly upset. Maybe I rubbed you the wrong way by genuinely asking whether any of you who supported this edit even knew anything about haki. Why? For one, nothing I said contradicted anything in this article. Second, I can think of over a dozen people who will explain CoA in incredible detail, supporting everything I stated earlier. Three, I have citations that'll prove everything I said. It's your move. Redefine Busoshoku Haki for all of us (with manga proof) or concede. I advise the latter because you wont win. Nexus32 (talk) 05:18, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

You do realize that DP is an admin here and there's no way anyone would get banned for calling you on rudeness. It's his job to enforce rules here such as not using sockpuppets (what you call mules) and accusing him of that makes you look bad. He's right in calling you rude and pretentious because you didn't just state your argument, you stated it and then said that was what we were going with as though you could make that decision on your own. You need to be polite and willing to compromise or you will likely end up getting banned. 06:51, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

(eats popcorn) This ought to be fun.

06:54, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

I just checked and the user you accused of being a "mule" was only adding an external link and did nothing to the passage in dispute. Next time you accuse someone, at least check your facts. 06:56, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Maybe an assistant spilled some ink and Oda was like, OK, we'll go with it. Hawkinz340 (talk) 19:00, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Regardless, we're going to say it's unknown why sometimes it's dark and not other times until we learn more. Nexus, I oblige you to watch your temper from now on. 22:30, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Guys please calm down... I'm sure someone one day will ask about this on the SBS.. Naruichi96 (talk) 23:07, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Monkey D. Dragon
I think it is safe to assume that Monkey D. Dragon uses Busoshoku Haki. We've seen him stop Smoker from arresting Luffy on Loguetown.

What do you guys think ?

(sigh) I'm going to answer before DP removes this stupid section. No, he was not seen using haki. He didn't touch Smoker, let alone in Logia form. Saying that he has haki because he talked to a DF user is utterly ridiculous.

13:09, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

Clarification: Haki does not Disrupt Devil Fruit Attacks?
Say for example that a user of the Snip Snip fruit (ability to transform body into scissors, which can cut anything as paper) were to try and cut a haki user employing Busoshoku Haki. Would they be cut according to the fruit's ability? Or would they be able to defend against it with sufficient skill, namely haki? 206.45.29.4 18:05, November 4, 2014 (UTC)

this type of haki may not be equipped to attacks that are not from one's body except for weapons, or anything generated from one's own body

Does this mean that haki can't be imbued in stuff generated from one's own body, or it can. because didn't doflamingo imbue haki in his strings?64.126.35.32 07:05, November 8, 2014 (UTC)

So in regards to the original example, would they be cut according to the fruit's ability or is it possible to defend against it w/ sufficient skill?205.200.232.169 18:25, November 21, 2014 (UTC)

Sai & Boo
Both Sai & Boo are Busoshoku haki users so they need be added to the list of users in the bottom, tried editing it myself but templates confuse the shit out of me :/ Anima40 (talk) 12:19, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

cavendish???
when did he used b.haki?Marco 1907 (talk) 19:02, January 15, 2015 (UTC)

Doflamingo's haki coat?
This just occurred to me to ask this: should we mention about Doflamingo's ability to use his coat in conjunction with his haki as armor? We saw him use it first against Sanji's Poêle à Frire: Spectre, but it wasen't coated black. Then in the castle during the first fight with Luffy it was shown coated black when blocking his Jet Gatling. AsuraDrago 21:58, February 17, 2015 (UTC)

Can you link the pages in question? 02:39, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

I believe its page 3-4 on chapter 724 when he block Sanji's kicks:

then in 745 page 6 when he blocks Jet Gatling with his haki coated black: http://mangahead.com/Manga-English-Scan/One-Piece/One-Piece-745-English-Scan AsuraDrago 20:05, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

Haki vs Haki
So does chapter 778 confirms that when two "haki" clashes, the stronger one prevails? Like when a Marineford the admirals where able to defend themselves from haki-imbued attacks. Or did we took this for granted already?

Well, Haki reinforces a strike, but as Luffy showed before the timeskip a non-Haki attack can still break through Haki. I thought we took this for granted. All we know is that Zoro's strike and Haki combined was stronger than Pica's Haki and body combined.

16:07, February 26, 2015 (UTC)

No I was talking about how, for example, the admirals at Marineford were hit by haki-imbued attack but took little to no damage and were able to evade the attacks using their fruit powers.

1. Non-Haki physical strikes can break through Haki. (However, they still cannot attack Logia users even they broke their Haki.)

2. Stronger Haki nullifies weaker Haki. (Logia users can defend themselves with Haki against weaker Haki.)

3. Haki protects against Devil Fruit ability but stronger Haki + DF ability combined attack cannot be protected. (As shown in Vergo vs Law.)

85.97.124.126 18:52, February 26, 2015 (UTC).

Makes sense, AWC. I'd go with what the AWC said. 02:30, February 27, 2015 (UTC)

Well it's obvious that Zoro's stronger Haki defeated Pica's weaker one. 09:04, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

Sooo.... Can we close this now? 03:22, March 4, 2015 (UTC)

Yes. This is nothing new. 13:46, March 4, 2015 (UTC)

Armament Haki
So the article does say that there are two types of B. Haki but couldn't u say that Oda just needed a way to show people that the person was using Haki instead of like when Garp hit him in flashbacks where we were left wondering if he used Haki or not. It just doesn't make sense that everyone in the war didn't even use it even though we know that Doffy, whitebeard, and the admirals can use it.

another thing i may have just missed this but is there proof that it has been confirmed to have two different B haki? I have always thought it was just to have something to show that the person used haki. HB Fagen 13:43, March 2, 2015 (UTC)

Buso Koka = Busoshoku + Haoshoku
When Dof and Luffy were clashing with their hardened black Haki, he said "the clash of Haoshoku Haki", but they were not using it. It was happened twice, also when Chinjao and Luffy were fighting in Colosseum, Gatz said the same thing. I think, Buso Koka might be the combination of Busoshoku and Haoshoku Haki.--160.75.22.240 14:16, April 2, 2015 (UTC)


 * If it was true, there would be many Haoshoku users.--Salamancc (talk) 19:54, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Kuja Girls Haki?
Shouldn't we add Marguerite and the other Kuja girls? Heck at least the ones that have shown to use haki, like Marguerite.

Grievous67 (talk) 14:01, May 28, 2015 (UTC)

Definitely, I don't understand how they've been forgotten. 14:29, May 28, 2015 (UTC)

Only the ones showed using the Haki arrows. We can't add all of them. SeaTerror (talk) 18:34, May 28, 2015 (UTC)

Exactly as I said, "Heck at least the ones that have shown to use haki". The problem is that this wiki states all members of the Kuja tribe reach a level of knowing Haki so should we include only the ones that explicetely show it or all the known named Kuja members? The ones that have esplicically shown it with "explosive" arrows are Marguerite, Kikyo, Sweet Pea and Ran.

Grievous67 (talk) 20:19, May 28, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for changing it but I think that Ran did also shoot once an exploding arrow. Although that might have been in the anime, we should check.

Grievous67 (talk) 22:13, May 28, 2015 (UTC)

Kinemon & Kanjuro
These two are shown to be armament haki users against the bird cage this chapter. Anima40 (talk) 05:26, May 30, 2015 (UTC)

Don't worry they were added the day the episode came out

Grievous67 (talk) 13:56, June 2, 2015 (UTC)

Jinbe uses haki on a Logia?
So in Caribou's cover story Jinbe hits him even if he's in full logia form, a clear punch to the Logia form, isn't that proof enough? Or can it be simply attributed to fishman karate?

Grievous67 (talk) 14:30, August 14, 2015 (UTC)

This was another discussion somewhere. Talk:Fishman_Karate I think.

14:32, August 14, 2015 (UTC)

Okay then, nevermind. Thanks

Grievous67 (talk) 15:36, August 14, 2015 (UTC)

Colors
what does everybody make of all of the different colors we've seen used for example Sai's haki has been shown to have a light blue aura where Zoro & Komei have purple evilish aura's and Doflamingo's seems to change at the end to purple but it is generally blackNibbler3100 (talk) 08:23, December 24, 2015 (UTC)

Black Lighting
"Black lightning" doesn't occur as a result of two bosu users of similar strength. It's called a clash of conquerer haki. It occurs between two who have access to conquerer haki. This is another tell, other than using conquerer haki to knock mooks out, who has conquerer haki in the New World.

This "Black Lighting" also occurred for Sai. Sai, Sabo, and Burgess are conquerer haki users.

You can quote the pages of Luffy's clashes as those pages actually call it the occurance a clash of conquerer haki.

There is no pages, no evidence chocking up the clash as something that happens between bosu users of similar strength. I challenge the person to claim so to provide clear evidence where it is STATED to simply be a clash between bosu users of similar strength.

Finally those "black lightning" aren't black at all. If you check the color pages they are as blue as Enel's lightning.

173.239.202.2 05:09, May 30, 2017 (UTC)Spunky

Haki vs Haki for logia users

 * Devil Fruit Users are capable of using Haki themselves. This allows them to resist lesser Haki-imbued attacks, yet it is still possible to pierce through their defense if the attack is stronger. For example, Akainu was able to take Haki-imbued attacks while maintaining his intangibility, assumably by extending his Haki through his body in order to nullify his opponents' bypass. However, he may have simply been morphing his body to avoid the attacks, as was the case with Charlotte Katakuri, predicting where the attacks would land with Kenbunshoku Haki.

I was wondering for a while, but can we still safely assume the Busoshoku Haki can be used by logia users to defend themselves from other haki attacks? We also admit in the text that they could just avoid their attacks. After all it seems a bit counter-intuitive that a power that "hardens" you is also the very thing that make you able to remain intangible, while on the other hand it's seems way easier to anticipate the attacks and respond accordingly. I don't even see why you need a kenbunshoku haki developed like Katakuri's to do so, when basically it's what "normal" kenbunshoku does with "normal" attacks. Even Monet could simply dodge haki-imbued effects without haki to achieve a similar results (ch. 687). The whole assumption is based on the marineford war when Kuzan (ch. 567) and Akainu(ch. 574) where hit by haki and survived (almost) unharmed. So I ask, do those references still hold today?

I think the problem is with the example. In Punk Hazard it was stated the BH allows to make contact with the Logia DF user but not negate the DF power. Even in Dressrosa, Doflamongo used BH against Gear Fourth Luffy and was surprised he was still rubbery. Basically, BH strengthen the user but does not weaken the target. Or maybe BH vs. BH cancel each other out.

So if Kuzan's BH was stronger then Whiteboard's, and if Sakazuki's BH was stronger then Vista's and Marco's it still make chance but this is just a speculation. Rhavkin (talk) 23:15, November 15, 2017 (UTC)
 * Rayleigh stopped Borsalino's kick (BH negate Logia intelligibility)
 * Zoro faces Pica and could cut him (stronger BH negate weaker BH)

I think that since it hasn't been clearly stated in the series that Logia Users can negate Haki with Haki, we should not assume that they can, but still consider the possibility. SynchroKingSharkDrake (talk) 01:36, November 16, 2017 (UTC)

Also, I think we should consider the possibility that Busoshoku Haki can be used for something other than Hardening, especially since it was specifically named as a technique, despite the wide usage. I like to think that Busoshoku Haki is responsible for some of the unexplained occurrences in battle (Luffy's Red Hawk fire addition, Zoro's Asura/Kyutoryu, Sanji's easy ignition after the timeskip, etc.). I know that it doesn't exactly pertain to the topic, but I'd like to share my theory. I think that since Busoshoku Haki makes your soul into armor, it might be possible to alter the properties of that armor. For example, making it easily ignited, or taking a special form. It's just a theory with next to no evidence to back it up. SynchroKingSharkDrake (talk) 02:31, November 16, 2017 (UTC)

Do not delete other people word, especially if you're commenting on them. Rhavkin (talk) 05:58, November 16, 2017 (UTC)

The fact that a stronger haki will prevale over a weaker one is a fact, the most notable example being the Zoro vs Pica fight. However that basically is the same as saying the "strongest material will breaker the weaker one". What I'm questioning is if that can be applied to the "negate intangibility" effect.


 * Pros to busoshoku
 * As Rhavkin pointed out, Luffy's gear fourth uses haki to harden him, but it still remain "rubbery". So something similar may apply to logia users.
 * Katakuri is forced to use kenbunshoku to avoid attacks because he is not intangible to begin with, so it's not the best example.


 * Pros to kenbunshoku
 * It seems to me more reasonable that the ability to "evade attacks" (= kenbunshoku) is the one used to evade attack, rather then the ability to hardener yourself (= busoshoku), which suggests more a power struggle like in the Zoro vs Pica fight. In any case, kenbunshoku can definetely be used by logia users to avoid attacks the same way non-logia users use it.
 * The Aokiji vs WB example is a bit problematic... I know that these are all speculations about power levels, but saying that he avoided an attack with busoshoku is the same as saying Aokiji had a stronger haki then WB, one of the four emperor. Ok that he wasn't in the best shape, but is that really plausible?

We don't know any of the admirals power and\or haki level, but we do know that they are one of the three great powers so the possibility of them matching a yonko isn't that far fetched.

The question is whether we should include the paragraph as is? I think its obvious (even if not specifically stated) that Kuzan and Sakazuki used some type of ability to not be harmed by haki embedded attacks. Is it a stronger haki? A logia ability? haki+logia? Awakening? Plot armor? Or maybe something else.

Until we know, I don't think that the paragraph can stay how it is now. And knowing this community, even if a clarification is given, someone will always say that there is no prove it happen before its revealed (see the non canon logia are special paramecia debates). Given that probable assumption, I suggest we discuss this case as if there will never be an explanation to how they did that, and focus on how to handle it with what we know now, and as I said above, that is not much. Rhavkin (talk) 12:01, November 16, 2017 (UTC)

There's no indication that a Logia using Haki allows them to maintain intangibility while being attacked with Haki attacks. Aokiji was very obviously morphing his body to avoid Whitebeard's attack, which the Hie Hie no Mi page even states: "It's also apparent that the user can control the ice in his body to mold it and change its shape, as seen when Kuzan formed a hole in his chest before Whitebeard stabbed through Kuzan with his bisento, allowing Kuzan to avoid contact with the Haki-infused weapon." Akainu was a more ambiguous example, but with the way Katakuri's powers have been portrayed it's now clear that he was doing the same thing. 13:01, November 16, 2017 (UTC)

The fact that it is written on another page doesn't make it true nor accurate. Rhavkin (talk) 14:38, November 16, 2017 (UTC)

However that's a problem because it creates a contradiction, since we give different meanings to the same fact.

If we agree on how to edit this page we'll edit the Hie Hie no Mi's as well. Rhavkin (talk) 17:01, November 16, 2017 (UTC)

Aokiji does the exact same thing Katakuri does. Katakuri explains how reshaping body allows one to avoid haki attacks. There's no alternative option given in the manga, this statement "Akainu was able to take Haki-imbued attacks while maintaining his intangibility, assumably by extending his Haki through his body in order to nullify his opponents' bypass" is speculation stemming from a lack of proper explanation at the time. 17:52, November 16, 2017 (UTC)