Talk:Charlotte Family

45 Sons
Well, by all means it looks like she killed her son so I was gonna add that it now consists of 84 children. But I wanted to see what you guys thought first. Muscat is DEAD for sure, yes?Mhj0808 (talk) 16:12, June 16, 2016 (UTC)

I'd say keep it at 85 since we don't know if all of the 82 unseen siblings are still alive. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 19:59, June 16, 2016 (UTC)

If you have a family of 12 children and one dies at the age of 24 years or something. Would you say you had 11 children? Well to the funerals I go many also count children that died after a few days. And some even counted babies that died during the pregnancy. It's a strange way to go about things. Definitely keep it at 85.89.99.111.234 16:39, August 4, 2016 (UTC)Vartigo

Numbering Children
I think organizing the order of the sons and daughters would be helpful somewhere on this page like maybe in parentheses in the family box next to the characters name or a list in the members section so you dont have to open up the kids page to see the number and also be able to see the order of eldest to youngest. Just a suggestion since they make the effort to tell us the order of the daughter/sonBlazeKaizer (talk) 06:33, July 30, 2016 (UTC)BlazeKaizer

I agree, a numbered table or something of the sort that puts the children in order would be pretty convenient, especially since the current format doesn't display each child's number unless you go to that child's page. I also recommend separating the sons and the daughters.

I agree with the person above ^ Dinosel (talk) 15:37, August 4, 2016 (UTC)

Trivia
Apparently, SeaTerror has a problem with the trivia.
 * 1) The Food Theme- We are pretty much in agreement except for the phrasing.
 * 2) The Charlotte Cake- It doesn't make sense to include it in each character page, or just in Linlin's
 * 3) Lola- She is in the galley and the infobox. SeaTerror is the only one i see that doesn't think that the "Lola" mention in chapter 835 is the Lola from the Thriller Bark Arc.
 * 4) Non Food- Lola is not a food pun. As for Perospero, "licking" isn't related directly to "food". It like saying that "writing" is related to "sociality"; you'd lick a candy like you'd write a letter, but you could also lick an envelope and write a book.

Rhavkin (talk) 04:43, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

I dont have any problem with the trivia as long as they are not mentioned in every single member of the Charlotte Family seperately. The food theme trivia thing is getting out of hand. Dinosel (talk) 07:35, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

They're supposed to be mentioned on the character's article and we should not list every single family member here considering how many characters are in the family. Lola is being removed because there's no evidence that's her real name either. Perospero's is also food related. SeaTerror (talk) 08:21, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

I'm not talking about each family member pun, just the reference to the type of cake that is called "Charlotte". That trivia was in Linlin page but it is relevant to the entire family so instead of adding it to every member page I add it to the family's.

As for Lola, Daddy Big Head said that she is part of the family. At best you can argue that this is a different Lola from the Thriller Bark Arc but that is a different topic, and if that discussion will have a majority of "not the same Lola" then you can remove the link.

And as for Perospero, "Lick" isn't exclusively food related (e.g. envelope) but nonetheless, every other member of the family is name after a type of food while he is named after an action that could be related to food, still note worthy.

Rhavkin (talk) 10:02, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

"Lola is being removed because there's no evidence that's her real name either" SeaTerror (talk) 02:39, August 9, 2016 (UTC)

Okay, you seems to focus on Lola so I'll add the rest back to the trivia. The Lola discussion you should take to her take page, because as of now, she is consider in this wiki as a member of the family. Rhavkin (talk) 05:10, August 9, 2016 (UTC)

The fact that Lola's father called her Lola more than proves it's her real name. As for family photos, we have plenty of articles with huge galleries, like the Whitebeard Pirates. If it gets big, it gets big, and we'll roll with it. The food trivia should only be on individual pages, not the big one here. Keep charlotte cake just on here. Part of the reason we have these family pages is so that we have a place to put relevant overarching trivia that applies to all members instead of smearing it across every individual page. As for Perospero in specific, his name, while not directly related to food, is relevant to the giant lollipop cane he carries around as well as his position as candy minister and the fact that he has a tongue you can land a plane on. If you want to get technical, you can say that the children have a food and related onomatopoeia theme in either name or design. That's really all there is to it. Simple. Effective. Done. 07:19, August 9, 2016 (UTC)

So then that means we only need the Charlotte trivia here. Also that doesn't prove anything. It could be a nickname or a short version of a real name. In fact there's a cupcake store in Japan called Lola's. SeaTerror (talk) 08:38, August 9, 2016 (UTC)

The charlotte trivia was the only thing I did, I don't know why you thought I was going to add any family members except those who doesn't share the theme in a subnote. Rhavkin (talk) 08:47, August 9, 2016 (UTC)

No it isn't. http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Charlotte_Family?diff=1360785&oldid=1359942 SeaTerror (talk) 09:40, August 9, 2016 (UTC)

What are you trying to show? Rhavkin (talk) 09:51, August 9, 2016 (UTC)

Stop trolling. SeaTerror (talk) 11:25, August 9, 2016 (UTC)

Siriusly? I really can't understand what you're trying to point out. All I see is the first note about the theme, the first subnote about the charlotte cake and the second subnote about the exceptions. Rhavkin (talk) 11:35, August 9, 2016 (UTC)

Someone changed the trivia and removed Perospero. One person doesn't make a theme and he is the only one who have (somewhat) food related name. Rhavkin (talk) 09:05, August 11, 2016 (UTC)

You claimed you didn't do the edits so to say "what are you trying to show" can be nothing but you trolling. We just need to put the trivia back to how I had it since it was the most correct. Even the bad grammar is there now. SeaTerror (talk) 03:53, August 12, 2016 (UTC)

When did I say I didn't do the edits? And as for the trivia you changes; first of all it's pretty arrogant to say "...how I had it since it was most correct...", if you truly believe that what you do is better despite the fact that both Dinosel and Dance Powderer agree to it so its just you that oppose then you I think you missed the whole point of the talk page concept. Secondly, yes, I have bad grammar but I'm working on it TVM, and there is a different between grammar edits and context edits (mainly that no one will argue about grammar edits).

And again, the Perospero thing, he is the only one in the family with a food related name wile the rest have a food type name. One member doesn't make theme. However, if there will be another food related named family member, it will only mean we'll add a subnote about "some members of the family have a food related name instead of a type of food name" so it still shouldn't be on the main note. Rhavkin (talk) 04:45, August 12, 2016 (UTC)

Keep the charlotte cake trivia and just say they all have food related names. Perospero and Lola don't need any specific mention. 00:09, September 5, 2016 (UTC)

It's been two weeks and nothing changed. Can we close this discussion? Barto mafia family (talk) 14:27, September 19, 2016 (UTC)

This appears to be settled, closing the discussion. 13:40, October 12, 2016 (UTC)

Wasn't settled. There's still no clear majority. SeaTerror (talk) 18:39, October 12, 2016 (UTC)

The food thing is valid trivia. Also, Lola is actually the name of a Mexican drink made with cinnamon and vanilla 01:38, October 14, 2016 (UTC)

Seems to be a clear majority now and that also settles Lola. SeaTerror (talk) 02:11, October 14, 2016 (UTC)

Using a family tree?
Since we are going to be showing the known structure of the Charlotte Family (that is probably going to be very huge), can we simply use a family tree to show how that works? We can identify the exact relationship between a son/daughter and a parent (father) instead of chucking them all in a box and simply showing their portraits. 138.75.204.150 12:11, October 2, 2016 (UTC)

We only use images from the series, so simply making a family tree diagram isn't an option. If we get one in the manga then that'd be viable.

12:18, October 2, 2016 (UTC)


 * We have the information and facts given to us, then we should be able to form the relationship from the series. You don't expect a monarch of a country to personally design a family tree for his citizens to see/publish in the press, do you? The reporters who got the information made them, or something like that. 138.75.204.150 12:54, October 2, 2016 (UTC)

A family tree would be hard to understand with 43 hasbands. Maybe just using an * like with Aladine and Bege. Barto mafia family (talk) 12:33, October 2, 2016 (UTC)

Making a family tree of that size on our own is not very realistic. Too many unknown offspring and not to mention getting all of that to fit in a small image. 02:57, October 10, 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Drake. As useful as it might be, it's not very practical. There's a good chance we won't even see the entire family, and then we'd just be left with a bunch of spaces unaccounted for. 16:31, October 10, 2016 (UTC)

New Kids, No Fam Name
I'm gonna nip this in the bud, chapter 861 gave us three new Charlotte kids: Oven, Daifukun, and Compote. The problem is they were not addressed as Charlotte Whatever. However, we know they're part of the family, since Vito called them sons and daughters. So I say we just add Charlotte to the title pages but keep it out of the name section of the infoboxes until further notice. 08:42, March 30, 2017 (UTC)

I would like to piggyback on what DP said and propose that we add Charlotte to Compote, Daifuku, Oven, Anana, Dolce, Dragee, and Anglais. We have been introduced to 20 Charlotte children, and everyone except those six plus Lola have gotten a last name without doubt. Lola is definitely an exception, considering that she got an intro-box and also left the family, leaving her name in reasonable enough doubt. But the other six are full-fledged members of the Charlotte Family. They just haven't had the privilege of getting an intro box, and their names have only been mentioned in casual conversation. People rarely refer to me by my full name in casual conversation so that makes sense. Smoothie and Katakuri were also first casually mentioned before they got their intro boxes, and sure enough, they had the name Charlotte. If this family was smaller I might be more inclined to caution, but time and time again we've seen the name Charlotte over and over, including for characters that were initially referred to by their first names before receiving an official introduction.

Also, in Chapter 842, Reiju stated that "in the Charlotte Family, last names remain unchanged even after marriage", putting forward some pretty strong evidence that the Charlotte children do indeed all have that last name.

We can keep just the first names in the infobox for now, like DP said, but I don't see why the titles can't have Charlotte in them. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 10:38, March 31, 2017 (UTC)

Can someone at least fix the images on Compote, Daifuku, and Oven thanks. 68.5.136.238 11:04, March 31, 2017 (UTC)

Yeah DP's suggestion is fine. Not sure about Lola though since she's technically still a Charlotte regardless of whether or not she ran away. We did the same thing with Sanji (who also ran away) and ended naming the article "Vinsmoke Sanji" 14:56, March 31, 2017 (UTC)

If Oven, Daifuku, and Compote, have it, Dolce, Dragée, Anglais, and Anana should too Meshack (talk) 14:57, March 31, 2017 (UTC)

Lola is more unclear since she was introduced with an Oda box without a surname. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 15:03, March 31, 2017 (UTC)

To be clear, I was only talking about Oven, Compote, and Daifuku. I'm hesitant to add it to the rugrats since there's a chance they might be her grandkids and have different names, like Capone Petz. 16:49, March 31, 2017 (UTC)

They're her children, since they referred to Pudding as "big sister" in Chapter 845 Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 17:47, March 31, 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Kaido here. It's more than reasonable enough to name them all Charlottes. 19:00, March 31, 2017 (UTC)

Ugh, Klobis moved Oven and Daifuku back. And it begins. 20:11, March 31, 2017 (UTC)

So are we not going to add Charlotte to them all? Meshack (talk) 01:29, April 1, 2017 (UTC)

So Compote, Daifuku, and Oven aren't going to have Charlotte in them? Even tho they were listed as being part of the Charlotte Family alongside Perospero, Katakuri, and Smoothie. At least Dolce, Dragee, Anglais, and Anana I can understand because we don't know if their Big Mom's very younger kids or are her grandchildren, I'm guessing they are her very younger kids. I think they should have Charlotte in them but if not then alright it's your guys decision. Opera298 (talk) 04:18, April 1, 2017 (UTC)

The brats called Pudding their older sister. They ain't grandchildren. 13:47, April 1, 2017 (UTC)

I also think all direct children of Big Mom should have the Charlotte surname, even in the infobox. There is no evidence that would make us doubt the contrary.

Add it back. Klobis is going to fight us, but whatever. 16:21, April 1, 2017 (UTC)

DP, your thought is right. But it does not matter. We are readers, not the author. What readers think does not affect the wiki.

''Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources.'' --Klobis (talk) 12:07, April 2, 2017 (UTC)

What is wrong with making connections like that? Especially ones grounded in verifiable fact? I'm all for not jumping to conclusions, but in this case there's no room for error. Oven, Compote, and Daifuku were all referred to as a son or daughter, so why wouldn't their name be Charlotte? I understand you not wanting Charlotte added to the Japanese names, and I agree, but for the English names it only makes sense. I'm not asserting what readers think here. I'm asserting what readers know to be true. I really see no harm in doing it that way. 19:07, April 2, 2017 (UTC)

While I don't agree with this policy, this wiki will accept nothing if not spoon feed in an official source. It's no use to argue with policy regarding one example. Rhavkin (talk) 19:45, April 2, 2017 (UTC)

I think this situation is sorta similar to the Sanji situation. Sanji was said to be a member of the Vinsmoke Family but we waited until Oda, Sanji, or the manga character profiles referred to him as Vinsmoke Sanji. This may not be the same in regard that Sanji disregards his family name but we still changed the page name to Vinsmoke Sanji even though he did disregard his family name at the time. I don't think this situation is any different so we should wait until the manga reveals their names to be Charlotte Oven, Charlotte Compote, etc. Meshack (talk) 19:52, April 2, 2017 (UTC)

I don't think it really matters what we call them, because we know that they are Big Mom's children either way. As for Rhavkin's comment, we use official sources because they are official. Speculating would just make the whole wiki look bad. That's also why we reference everything. I'm fine with adding it to those three as long as we leave the Japanese as is. 22:34, April 3, 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. We've been avoiding using family names for characters who have not been officially called by them, because you never know what their true names may be. We left Sanji off the Vinsmoke until he called himself so, because some of us could think he legally threw the surname off (as in Franky did his birth name, and Ace changing his). 03:08, April 4, 2017 (UTC)

MN, I know way we use and note sources, I'm talking about this wiki refusal to use common sense and logic. For example, until Chapter 858 (I think) Chiffon was referred to as Lola's sister and was changed to twin only after Chiffon said it to Nami, despite having the same parents and their resemblance.

This discussion revolved around three points: Logicly - yes. Wiki rules - no. Rhavkin (talk) 05:30, April 4, 2017 (UTC)
 * Every member of the family is still a Charlotte even after marriage.
 * Compote, Daifuku, Oven, Anana, Dolce, Dragee, and Anglais are her children (not grandchildren).
 * Should they have the Charlotte family name?

I have to agree with Rhavkin here. Logic should be on equal footing with policy, interwoven into it even. There is nothing speculative if we think about it even a little. 23:48, April 4, 2017 (UTC)

Rhavkin, that argument for logic is not great. Lola and Chiffon may look the same and have the same parents, but that doesn't mean that they are twins. I have a twin brother, and we look nothing alike; I also know people who are a few years apart and get mistaken for fraternal twins. Yes, my accounts are merely anecdotal, but we were not able to make the twin call until it was confirmed.

As for family members who don't have "Charlotte" in the name, I am still a little reluctant. I brought up about Mont-d'Or calling Charlotte Moscato "brother" when he was first introduced, but we did not add Charlotte until after he was reintroduced. To me, this is a similar situation. Do I oppose adding Charlotte? Yes and no. Logically, Compote, Diafuku, and Oven are Big Mom's children (specifically stated and numbered) and almost certainly share her surname; part of me still doesn't like the lack of confirmation, but I can live with adding it. As for Anana, Dolce and Dragee, and Anglais, not yet (because they lack the numbering and being called Big Mom's sons/daughter). 01:11, April 5, 2017 (UTC)

I think the Charlotte family is a different case then other characters without surnames because for this family we have a clear pattern even backed up by a statement from the manga (cap 842). As I often said in the past, sometime not saying something (because you take into account some possibilities) can be more speculative then doing the contrary, because you are implicitly giving credibility to the other "theories". We cannot always play the card of "speculation" when we don't want to state something. As a matter of fact, it's inevitable to draw conclusion based sometime on assumptions. I'll make an obvious example: we don't really wait for an official source before stating the race of a character. We can generally tell when someone is human, a fishman or whatsover. So when we do wait then? When there are reasonable chances of another possibility. A new female character that looks like a human is a human, the chance that she is a wondering kuja outside their island is not worth considering. Another example is Big Mom herself: we didn't assume her race for a long time because of her size.

Therefore it all comes down to pondering the possibilities. How many chances there are that the 3rd and 4th sons of Big Mom don't have the Charlotte surname? That should tell you if we should add the surname or not. What about the brats instead? For their case we should also consider the chances of them not being Big Mom direct children, so even though I personally think it would be safe to call them Charlotte too, I can't really fault that reasoning.

When considering things like this, I try to determine what the other possibilities could be. If I can't think of any, or they seem highly irrational, I don't include them in the decision. With the three new Charlotte kids, there is no room for error. With the little ones, there's more room, which is why this for right now is only about Compote, Daifuku, and Oven. 03:19, April 5, 2017 (UTC)

Honestly, I think that rule should be changed. I think if someone says they're part of the Charlotte Family and aren't introduced with Charlotte, we should add the Charlotte because they are part of the family. It's kinda like referencing other passages in the Bible to address one passage. Meshack (talk) 19:58, April 9, 2017 (UTC)

Something that should be simple or common sense has divulged into this :/ I guess we need to revamp the rules Godess of Time Dimaria (talk) 20:02, April 9, 2017 (UTC)

We're going to have to have a formal vote on this matter, since this decision will affect future decisions and policy. 18:42, April 11, 2017 (UTC)

Revamping the rules sounds good. A wiki should not be stuck in such trivia technical issues that can easily be solved by applying a bit of logic.

Is anyone other than Klobis currently opposed to this change? Might as well get this out of the way and then deal with the broader-scale forum.

Though I would like to propose keeping Lola the same for now, given how she actually got an intro-box without a last name, plus her status in the family is rather shaky. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 20:11, April 18, 2017 (UTC)