Talk:Marines

The Marines or The Marine Headquarters
The Three Great Powers are the Yonko, the Shichibukai, and... ?!!



It seems there are a lot of misunderstanding about the third great power for quite some time now. So far, it has been officially stated in the series that the third great power are the "Marine Headquarters", but because of some misunderstanding of the meaning some people disapprove of this saying that the marineheadquarters is not an organisation it is just a "building" and buildings don't have powers, so they think that the third great power is the "Marine" as a whole, and that is wrong. When Oda introduced the admirals as "Marine Headquarters admiral...", did he meant the building?! does the buildings have ranks?! no, Oda meant the marine headquarter as a system as an organisation.

The Marine Headquarters and the Marine Bases are not just some "buildings", it is an affiliation. All the marine officers introduced in the series were affiliated to a specific marine branch which can not be change without permission from the higher ups, and each officer must operate under the specified marine branch's jurisdiction, for example; smoker wasn't allowed to leave Loguetown and enter the Grand Line nor he couldn't just go to the G-5 base, that means each and every branch is considered a sub-organisations, not just some buildings.

[[File:Summit_war.png|thumb|The defensive side of the summit war is consist of two of the three great powers; the Marine Headquarters and the Shichibukai.]

Another point of argument is that during the summit war the marine officers were gathered from all over the world not just the marine headquarter. Actually this point is completely unrelated to the subject that the marine headquarters are one of the three great power and it does not prove anything, summoning the strongest marines to the war of the strongest is pretty normal and common sense, especially scince Whitebeard himself, another part of the three geart powers, has summoned his allies from all over the new world, so does that makes him less than a yonko or contradict with the fact that he is part of the three great powers? Nevertheless, this point is not quite accurate, the marines of the marine headquarters are in fact deployed all over the world, whether because they are on an official mission, chasing a pirate, or simply they are on vacation.

The fact that it has been stated that the "Marine Headquarters" are one of the three great powers several times through the series but it hasn't been stated not once that the Marine are, is obviously means that Oda is talking about the Marine Headquarters only, not the whole Marine organisation. Some people may find it confusing and think it is easier to put it the other way, but this is not a place for thinking and this is not a discussion, wiki is supposed to be about the truth, straight facts only, the people can think for themselves later. The Author didn't write all this by coincidence or by mistake, no, he wroted because that's exactly how he wanted the story be and that is exactly what we are here for.

Tawer001 (talk) 02:48, March 16, 2014 (UTC)

This is why we don't read shitty translations like the ones you're going off from. It's the Marines as a collective. How the hell can a building be considered on par with actual people? 01:54, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

Shitty translations?!! the raw is a shitty translations?!! so Oda's japanese is shitty?!! and yours is superior to him?!! and you have a better understandig for the story than him, is that what you are trying to say?!!

Tawer001 (talk) 17:51, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

My point exactly when he moaned at me in chat. He wasn't prepared to listen, so I thought I'd wait for your reaction. 02:07, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

Um... How is it a shitty translation? Even if you can't read them, the kanji are on the Marine Headquarters page. The instances he mentioned, as well as Garp's speech in Chapter 432 where he talks about the three great powers all say "Marine Headquarters". But Marine Headquarters doesn't mean the building, it refers to all the people who are classed as "Marine Headquarters" Marines (as marked on the Marine Ranks page, plus most of the vice admirals and all the admirals).

The main problem as I see it is that the Marine HQ article is really badly written, as it only refers to the building it's located at (Marineford/the former G-1 place), and doesn't say anything about Marine HQ Marines (i.e. that it's a prestigious place to be stationed, and that the Marines there are the equivalent of Branch Marines that are two ranks higher on paper). It should probably have a gallery of HQ Marines, for a start. 07:57, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

That is exactly my point, their information is obviously based on the Marine HQ article which is as you said "badly written" and only refers to Marine HQ as a building. The minute Oda says Marine HQ they should have wrote Marine HQ whether they understood the meaning or not, whether it makes sense or not, because simply that's what he said and their is a reason for that even if we didn't get it. But the weird thing is that they are arguing with no prove even after they are giving a prove as clear as daylight, I mean if you can't read the kanji just read the hirakana or compare the kanji!!!

Tawer001 (talk) 17:50, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

This seems to have been totally forgotten. Well, I'm bringing it back up again. Tawer and Zodiaque are completely right. 22:08, December 19, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with Tawner here. We really need to give this stuff a once-over and make the pages give a better idea of what "Marine Headquarters" means. Any volunteers, or is this gonna stay unresolved forever? 23:07, February 2, 2015 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with Tawner, he seems to be correct on the Marine Headquarters. I can probably rewrite the page over the weekend, but I'm not sure how busy I'll be, so. 23:19, February 2, 2015 (UTC)

So people are blindly agreeing with somebody? SeaTerror (talk) 04:05, February 3, 2015 (UTC)
 * "Blindly" implies that we haven't read what he said, which we have. And we agree with the content of what we read. Is there a problem with that, ST? 05:18, February 3, 2015 (UTC)

If you did then you would have responded with any points as to why he was right. Besides there's an obvious fact as to how it isn't just Marine Headquarters marines. If it was then NONE of the other marines would have been summoned to Marineford during the Whitebeard War. SeaTerror (talk) 19:59, February 3, 2015 (UTC)

Tawer and Zodiaque already summed it up. There's really no need for repetition. But if that's what you want, then here: Every instance where the Three Great Powers are mentioned, such as Garp's speech that introduced them, say 海軍本部 = Kaigun Honbu = Marine Headquarters. The HQ is obviously not just the building. It also refers to all the Marines that are stationed there. For example, Garp is introduced as a "Marine Headquarters Vice Admiral" in Chapter 432 (same chapter where he talks about the Three Great Powers, by the way). Oda has also stated in an SBS that "The Marine Headquarters are like the super-elite of the Marines." and that the Marines in the HQ are about three ranks apart from the stardard ones at different bases. Meaning that someone who's a captain in a base would only be a liuetenant in the HQ.

Regarding the "NONE of the other marines would have been summoned" argument, I suggest you take a look at Tawer's third big paragraph, the one that starts with "Another point of argument...". Looks like you're the one who didn't read anything. 20:35, February 3, 2015 (UTC)

Let's start making the changes, but keep this discussion open until the work is complete, and verified for accuracy. 19:14, February 4, 2015 (UTC)

Tawer's third paragraph is invalid and already demolished by the fact they summoned other non Marine HQ marines. They would have ordered them to stay away just like during Enies Lobby where they ordered marines under captain level to stay away from the Straw Hats. SeaTerror (talk) 20:31, February 4, 2015 (UTC)

They can add more. As long as the people regularly stationed there are there, it's still Marine HQ. 23:00, February 4, 2015 (UTC)

That doesn't work since they are non Marine HQ marines that were summoned there. SeaTerror (talk) 02:44, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

If all of the Straw Hats, and Vivi are in a group together, can I no longer call them the "Straw Hats"? Adding allied people (or in this case, people who are still part of the same organization) does not mean I can't refer to them by their more common name. I really don't see what your argument is. 04:14, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

It means the entire organization is the third great power. If it was just marine headquarters then they would have told them to stay away unless they were Marines that were stationed there. They told ranks lower than captain to stay away from the Straw Hats during Enies Lobby too. SeaTerror (talk) 04:17, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

It's the organization. Otherwise, the great powers would be made up of 7 dudes, 4 dudes, AND A BUILDING. If we find out later that Marine HQ is secretly a transformer, then I'll concede that it's Marine HQ and not the organization. Also, did it ever occur to you that the building is symbolic of the organization? It's called a metaphor, which are not to be taken literally. 05:17, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

DP they're talking about the Marines stationed there which still doesn't mean anything since that argument was killed by the fact they summoned other non Marine HQ stationed marines there. SeaTerror (talk) 05:31, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

For god's sake, ST. Why would they NOT summon other Marines there? Why would they not want to have as many soldiers as possible when facing Whitebeard? WB summoned his allies, does that mean he's not a Yonko? And again, from Tawer's paragraph: "the marines of the marine headquarters are in fact deployed all over the world, whether because they are on an official mission, chasing a pirate, or simply they are on vacation." We've seen this plenty of times.

And DP, we're not talking about the building here. We're talking about the HQ as part of the Marine organization. As Tawer said: "The Marine Headquarters and the Marine Bases are not just some "buildings", it is an affiliation. All the marine officers introduced in the series were affiliated to a specific marine branch which can not be change without permission from the higher ups, and each officer must operate under the specified marine branch's jurisdiction, for example; smoker wasn't allowed to leave Loguetown and enter the Grand Line nor he couldn't just go to the G-5 base, that means each and every branch is considered a sub-organisations, not just some buildings.". Here's a list of points you should consider:
 * Every instance where the Three Great Powers are mentioned state 海軍本部 = Kaigun Honbu = Marine Headquarters
 * It's not a mistranslation. You can check it yourself from the raws Tawer posted, plus these ones:
 * Garp's explanation on the Three Great Powers.. Chapter 432, page 7.
 * Garp introduced as a "Marine Headquarters Vice Admiral". Same chapter.
 * Random guy commenting how there's no way Marine HQ could lose to WB. Chapter 550, page 2.
 * Oda has stated in an SBS that "The Marine Headquarters are like the super-elite of the Marines."
 * Also that the Marines in the HQ are about three ranks higher than regular ones. Meaning HQ captain >>> Base Captain.
 * "Marine HQ" is used in instances where it's clearly not referring to the building, such as this comment before the WB war: "Like hell Marine HQ could lose to him!"
 * Marine ranks are sometimes specified as "Marine HQ _____". Garp, for example, was stated to be a "Marine Headquarters Vice Admiral" when he was introduced. Again, not referring to the building, but rather their standing in the organization.

So yeah, Marine HQ is one of the Three Great powers. 15:59, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Totally means just the Marine HQ units. Comil SeaTerror (talk) 17:51, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

I didn't read through this all, but I honestly thought that the Marine admirals were considered the third great power... yeah you could say the marine as a whole are the third power, but their strength is basically reduced to the admirals, the same way the main power of the emperors lies in the emperors themselves.

If the HQ guys are considered the third power, it would render all the other marines kind of meaningless. We have soldiers of the same rank as those in HQ stationed elsewhere, ie vice admirals like Momonga at G-1, Comil at G-3, and Smoker and (formerly) Vergo at G-5(and don't start on a bs debate over which va is stronger, that's neither here nor there). The whole of the organization is more far-reaching than a select few elites. The Marines couldn't keep the world in balance if they just worked from HQ. Very little would be done, and it would be a logistical nightmare to say the least. Calling the organization the 3rd power is the only sensible option. 21:41, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Just because the Marine HQ is the most powerful bit does not mean the rest of the organisation is irrelevant. My opinion hasn't changed in the 10 months since I last commented here.

22:19, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

@ST: Good job ignoring everything but one sentence.

@DP: The Yonko are considered one of the Three Great Powers. Does that render their crews and allies meaningless?

And Nova, this isn't about opinions. The fact is that Marine Headquarters is one of the Three Great Powers. Claiming otherwise is saying that you understand the story better than Oda. 22:45, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

It could also mean that we trust the word of a revered, experienced vice admiral over that of a commodore. I'd believe Garp over Brannew. 22:48, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

If you'd believe Garp, then why don't you believe him when he says that Marine HQ is one of the Three Great Powers? 22:57, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

The Marines are one of the powers. Just because there are elites in that power does not make the rest of the organisation irrelevant.

23:00, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Let's look at Category:Characters in the Three Great Powers. That allows for ALL characters in subcategories of the Marines to be considered "part of the Three Great Powers". This includes people who make no sense, like Tajio a filler Marine Cook, Former Marines like Kuzan, X Drake, and the non-canon Gasparde, the actual pirate and dead Vergo, and lastly the non-canon and DEAD Zephyr.

Meanwhile, we just consider only the Yonko, and only the Shichibukai themselves to be in that category. Marco is not considered part of them. Benn Beckman isn't either. Jesus Burgess? Nope. Absalom? Not him either. People like Whitey Bay or Little Oars Jr. aren't included, even though she's far more involved than little Tajio. (and former Shichibukai are included too, which also makes no sense)

Why is it this way? Because as far as we saw in the Manga, only the Yonko themselves are mentioned as being part of it. And only the Shichibukai are mentioned as being part of it. We take the manga literally there. Why can't we do the same for "Marine Headquarters"?

I'll tell you why: Because people on here are too resilient to change and hate to admit that we've had wrong information up for years.

I'll say this though: It's highly hypocritical to include ALL Marines in the 3 Great Powers, but only include 11 other people in it. Is it so hard to believe that it's the Three GREAT Powers, and that people don't consider Yonko/Shichibukai crewmembers and Marines stationed elsewhere to just not be all that great. Especially when compared to the truly Powerful and Great members of those organizations. No matter what the outcome of this, we need to seriously examine this issue, because no matter what, it's wrong to say that Daddy Masterson is a member of the Three Great Powers. 23:28, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

It's not hypocritical. Yonko and Shichibukai are titles, while the Marines is an organization. You're trying to make comparisons where they clearly don't exist. The Marines is a group. You don't hear people saying "Run! It's Pekoms of the Yonko!" They say "Run! It's Pekoms, one of  Yonko Big Mom's crew!" Marine is not a title. You don't hear anyone talking about the fury of Marine Sakazuki. Granted, the Shichibukai and Yonko can be considered groups like the Marines, but not in the same way. They aren't an organization the way the Marines are. 23:50, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

"Marine Headquarters" is a kind of title for specific marines though, based on the many way it has been used (and the ones Kage linked).

Marine HQ seems to specify the elites of the Marines from how it's used, but we can't ignore the rest of the Marines. They are a massive peace keeping force.

00:17, February 6, 2015 (UTC)

--Klobis (talk) 03:49, February 6, 2015 (UTC)
 * One of the Three Great Powers is Marine HQ, not whole Marine. Because the three powers are in Grand Line, not whole world.
 * Marine = Marine HQ + Marine Branch.
 * Marine HQ = In Grand Line, Marine Branch = In 4 Blues. Grand Line Branch like G-5 is in HQ.
 * Marine HQ = Marine soldiers (Marine HQ marine; 海軍本部海兵) as well as the building of HQ.
 * Smoker is HQ marine although he was in East Blue. Logue Town marines are sent by HQ.

Rank Unkown Description
I feel that there shouldn't be a rank unknown description for Bogart, Glove, Kibin, & Cadre. We have already placed them into "Other High-Ranking Marines" which basically describes their roles. The Marine template lacks consistency if we put "Rank unknown" for those yet leave it out for Bakezo, Pike, Jero and Gal in the "Others" section, Bell-mère and Diez Barrels in the "Former Marines" section, and Gasparde, Jim, Ryudo, Ain, and Binz in the "Former Non-Canon Marines" section. The "(Rank unknown)" description is useless as there is no need because with or without that label, everyone can tell that rank is unknown. Also, it is not like you also put "(Ranks unknown)" for the Giant Squad

Also, Glove and Kibin are not ranked in the manga nor named. If we allow the name to be used in a Canon section, then the rank should be allowed. If rank shouldn't be allowed alone then we should include a marker that states the position, such as AoR = Anime only Rank.

Nightmare Pirates (talk) 21:46, December 19, 2014 (UTC)

I'd say that if they're in the "Other High Ranking Marines" section, they shouldn't be in "Rank Unknown". Just get a tooltip for "Rank Unknown"

And Yeah, a tooltip for Glove, Kibin, etc would be good. 23:07, February 2, 2015 (UTC)

Changed the template to what JSD suggested, is it all okay now? 23:27, February 3, 2015 (UTC)

Yes. We're done in this section. 19:14, February 4, 2015 (UTC)