Talk:Beta Beta no Mi

Logia
It is a Paramecia like Magellan's Fruit look at the most recent chapter

If we're "hinting" we're not sure if it's logia then we should remove it from logia category -__-

okay  14:04, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

I don't know, his body sure seemed Logia-ish. When he fell from the roof his body squished on the impact and in the recent chapter 737 his body elongated. FirePit (talk) 14:06, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

It's logia, way too obvious logia. 14:09, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

I agree it's logia. I was just pointing out the irony.

Have to agree, he turned into it. It's obvious. He looked like liquid. As DP himself said

'We don't need confirmation, to see a longarm tribe member, if he has double joint arms'.

Nobody700 (talk) 14:12, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

But we haven't seen his body transform AT ALL. All we've seen is his cloak. I'm reverting until we get confirmation. 15:07, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

But we did? it just LOOKS like it's only his cloak, just like with Caeser. Look at the recent chapter, when he first appears he totaly bends out of shape while talking to while leaning over to CavendishFirePit (talk) 16:58, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

We saw his whole body drip down from the side of the tower or wherever he was when Baby 5 called him. 17:07, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

We saw his body covered in his coat, not his body. I'm just saying, it doesn't look like a Logia to me. 17:08, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Maybe it's something like Diamante's fruit. Like everything he touches can become sticky. After all logias can turn into substances and last time I checked "sticky" can refer to many substances not a particular one. Damn, I'm having second thoughts now...

Yeah it doesn't seem like a logia to me either. All the logias so far have been something specific like fire, smoke or ice. This is just "a sticky substance". 17:32, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

There isn't a chance the name could also mean glue or something, is there? 17:40, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

It's obviously a Logia but right thing is waiting.Salamancc (talk) 17:53, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

"Sticky"-what? Sticky mud? Sticky slime? Sticky alone is no element. 02:41, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

DP, it's not Glue. It would be called Gū Gū no mi then. I asked a guy who knows Japanese about a glue devil fruit.

Nobody700 (talk) 02:52, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

We've seen him break his body-shape when entering the throne room so we can assume he can transform to this "sticky" stuff. Must be a logia.


 * Or it's a coat made of glue that's concealing his body. We have not seen his actualy body change like we did with Caribou. 19:02, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

I agree that everything pinpoints in the Logia category but what confuses me is the element it uses. All Logia DFs correspond to natural elements (sand, fire, ice, gas, etc) but that one has a sticky substance. What natural element could that be?

What I'm trying to say is that although the physical characteristics of the user pinpoint to the Logia category, the element of the fruit itself seems closer to the Doru Doru no Mi and Doku Doku no Mi type of devil fruit.

So I personally am not entirely sure that it is a Logia. 14:05, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

The Abilites seem to be more Logia based rather than Paramecia. 14:39, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

That doesn't quite answer my question. If it is a Logia then it has a natural element. What element is this then? 14:46, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

It is indeed stated that all Logias are connected to a natural element, the same way it is stated that only Logia - users can rematerialize. Beto Beto no Mi is confusing, but if you ask me, the second statement is stronger than the first. So I think, if he can rematerialize, he should have eaten a Logia, even if this Logia is not connected with a natural substance. Of course this discussion is still not well-established. I think we should wait without categorizing the fruit. K the AWC (talk) 18:54, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

I have to agree. I'm split on what it could be as well. Discretion is the better part of valor. Let's wait until we either get an explanation or see him fight. Either one of those should clear things up. 19:12, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

Also, I would like to include the snouts he has which seems like an effect of the fruit. It is similar to Magellan's diarrhea caused by the Doku Doku no Mi. So far Logias have not shown such side-effects as far as I remember.

As the ones before me said, waiting for confirmation is the right choice. 20:00, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

yes, let us wait-- 22:52, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

Alright, we decided to leave it unknown, so this doesn't need to be an active discussion anymore. 03:13, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

This is just my opinion but I think its Paramecia because its probably similar to the Doku Doku no mi.

Primarch11 07:34, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

If you ask me, chance that Beta Beta no Mi is Logia type Devil Fruit are 95 %...

Yeah, it's a Logia. 2.28.242.176 11:20, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Not necessarily. The Doru Doru no Mi could do the same thing. Just wait for him to fight for Pete's sake. 11:21, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

So Mr. 3 could spin his head around? Such as trebol spining his head around on his body where his head was upside down while he was looking at robin, how could a Paramecia do that?... 13:20, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

I would say he's a Logia but we have to wait until he fights be patient Admiral Sugar (talk) 18:23, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Last chapter kinda showed it as a Logia but I'm not a fan of speculating a DF type before its confirmed  Brocodile   Talk 18:46, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

No, it's safe to call it a Logia from what we saw last chapter. http://readms.com/r/one_piece/741/2292/7 The middle panel is all the confirmation we need. 21:56, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Yup it's crystal clear now. Confirmed.

^ 21:59, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Its a Paremecia guys just like the Doku Doku No Mi. Magellan could do everything with the Doku Doku No Mi that Trebol could do with Beta Beta No Mi. Al Logia fruits are linked to an element. What kind of element is Stick?

2.25.255.142 18:41, March 21, 2014 (UTC)

It's clearly a logia. Trebol got cut in half and then his body parts reconnected without any evident damage. Magellan couldn't do that.

How do we know Magellan couldn't? Also how do we know Trebol isn't using his slime to augment his size? If it's Logia, Usopp is going to have to learn Haki. Thats not gonna happen. I suspect you'll be proved wrong in future chapters now that Usopp has manned up and is finally fighting him. Look at all the Logia, they're named after elements. Stick is no element.

Njb36 (talk) 19:15, March 21, 2014 (UTC)

Magellan's fruit is a paramecia. That's how we know he couldn't do it. Glint isn't an element either, and yet we have Kizaru. Care to argue those? If I must answer your how's Usopp gonna fight question, I suggest you read what the fruit is capable of. 00:53, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Logias don't have to always be an element, more often than not they just happened to be an element any ways. Magellan isn't a Logia because he can't become poison himself, he only coated himself in it. This is where the anime screwed up and made it look he made his entire body poison. If he could do stuff like how Trebol just becomes sticky stuff and jumps in that form it would be obvious, but no Magellan has to create a venom road/highway for him to travel through like a slide. Anima40 (talk) 01:00, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Magellan is no Logia, that's a certain. But Trebol is still undetermined at best. After all, how do we know if that's not a clone made out of the sticky substance, like Ikaros' ink clone? Even if it is the real Trebol, he has yet to pull himself back together, what if he just dies in the upcoming chapter after an irreversible bifurcation? Hey, Ace and Monet died, unexpected though they were. Anticlimax though it may be, Usopp may have just killed Trebol in one strike. 01:09, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Much as that won't happen, part of me really wants it to have happened now. XD

01:17, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

I'm just hopiing that the sticky substance gets named eventually. Anima40 (talk) 01:23, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

I should clarify that I think its unprofessional of the wiki to put up that its a Logia without confirmation in the manga or anime yet. Its not been proven as fact. By putting up assumptions, no matter how 'sure' you are, you undermine the reliability of the wiki. Also the fruit is definitely undetermined but i think its going to turn out to be a Paramecia. The fruit has been confirmed to be called the Stick-Stick fruit. Stick can not be described as any interpretation of the word 'element' and thats the primary trait of a Logia, the only one they all have in common, they represent elements. The 'users can all become intangible' trait is secondary as there is an exception to this rule i.e. Blackbeard.

Njb36 (talk) 01:47, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

(sigh) Swamp isn't an element either. 01:56, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Read how the wiki describes Logia fruits and at the top you'll see that it says they are either elements OR a force of nature. Anima40 (talk) 01:59, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah agreed Anima, and element obviously doesnt mean element as in the periodic table. You can interpret 'element' in different ways...

Njb36 (talk) 02:03, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Well, Trebol's all okay again in the next chapter, so it's a Logia. 20:56, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Maybe the sticky stuff he is generating is Sap?SageM (talk) 21:46, October 16, 2014 (UTC)SageM

I don't want to say I told you so, but oh look it's his coat.

10:50, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

So, he's just a skinny man coated with snot-like stuff? Like Mgelan's venom demon? 94.51.110.186 15:28, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Artificial Devil Fruit
Could it be that he has eaten an artificially modified devil fruit perhaps? And about the zoan matter,this might be a different case, so a logia/paramecia maybe. 18:46, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

If that was the case his fruit's name would be "snail snail fruit" or something, I think that can be ruled our fairy easily FirePit (talk) 22:24, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

In the pictures from ten years ago, he looked like he already nad his ability and, as far as we know, artificial devil fruits didn't exist back then.

another good point FirePit (talk) 23:32, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Not 100% a Logia
Not that I doubt Trebol is a Logia, but there's still a chance he's a Paramecia. If Doflamingo who's a Paramecia can live beheaded, Trebol's fruit might have a gimmick that allowed him to survive Usopp's attack (like sticking his body back together). So I'm saying Beta Beta no Mi shouldn't be listed as a Logia until there's some solid confirmation. Will-O-Wisp (talk)

Oh for the love of crap, the outcome of one fruit's type does not affect that of another. We know what Doffy's is, we know what Trebol's is, end of story. 13:46, April 15, 2014 (UTC)

No we don't know what Trebol's is. We didn't see him become sticky goo and reform, so we don't know how he didn't die after being cut in three and we don't have a confirmation that he's a Logia. As for Doflamingo, he merely provides an example of Paramecias sometimes acting like Logias do, and he's not even the first one (well, he is the first one who can live as a head). That's what I mean. Will-O-Wisp (talk)

We have seen Trebol extend his body in a typical logia user way. Also, we don't know for sure if Doflamingo's survival is an attribute of his own devil fruit, so your reference is invalid.

can't we just leave it logia and change it once we found out it miraculously turns out to be something else :/ FirePit (talk) 20:26, April 15, 2014 (UTC)

That's the plan. 21:19, April 15, 2014 (UTC)

While I do believe Trebol borders Logia, the fact of his "sticky" being difficult to consider as an element or force of nature is a conflicting point. Gimmicks are possible, such as sticking back together or a sticky clone, etc., but yes, let's wait. Just wanna get it all out. 03:30, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

Most of the the other Logias aren't directly named after their element either, just felt like throwing this in FirePit (talk) 03:34, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

Paramecia
Judging from Chapter 782, it seems that Trebol is a Paramecia and not a Logia. Luffy's Haki attack didn't harm him, and it seems that the mucus was created by him as a protective barrier, as seen on the last page of the chapter. So I think it's a Paramecia. Agree? Trebol did say that he was "no mere Logia." 12:18, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Yep, pretty clear he's a paramecia. 12:32, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

I have my doubts, because when Law cut Trebol using Radio Knife, we can see that Trebol was cut in sections, and the head's section was completely separated of his arm and leg's sections. But it's ok Oda. (I'm sorry, I know that my English isn't good). NGP (talk) 13:11, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that we can definitely say he is Paramecia now, for example vs. Usopp. --Klobis (talk) 13:26, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

"Do you think I'm logia?" clearly suggests that he's not. 13:35, April 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * Radio Knife is an Ope Ope technique. It's same as Law's regular cuts except the victim can't reattach themselves.
 * In the fight against Usopp we never see his body parts in the split off sections.

We should hold off any changes to Paramecia until we have thoroughly discussed this. It looks unprofessional, to say the least, having the fruit listed as Paramecia in some articles and as Logia in others. MasterDeva (talk) 13:40, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

I admit it is hard to explain the whole Usopp cutting him thing. Especially since his beard was cut off, so that would mean his beard is out of mucus too? Or he grows it reeeaally fast. Or it was just an error. But I think what he says in the recent chapter confirms it being Paramecia. 13:43, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

So basically we are saying that he uses his fruit like Mr. 3... however remember that he can do that even if it's logia. So to sum up, did we have ever see him change form or doing something that only a logia can do? I wouldn't consider much what he says until we have a better translation available yet... early translations are usually messed up.

Mangastream's translation of the line is "Am I really Logia?" and not something about "mere Logia". I think what is happening here is that he's just trying to trick Luffy into thinking he's not a Logia, because all of Luffy's punches missed his true body.

But in 741, when Usopp cut him in half, there's no way that he could have missed Trebol's body. Even Pica's logia-esque power still meant that his body could not be separated. The only Paramecia we've ever seen that actually allow the user to separate their bodies are Buggy's and Very Good's. And if the Beta Beta no Mi is about producing mucus, it likely does not also have a separate ability to allow the user to separate themselves. 14:18, April 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, someone at Arlong Park drew an illustration about that. Again, we never saw his body parts in the split off sections. 14:26, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Oh wow you're actually discussing this. This site is even worse than its reputation. AfroPowah (talk) 14:25, April 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * I know right, we're such assholes for discussing an unclear situation. 14:42, April 2, 2015 (UTC)


 * It was outright stated that he wasn't a logia in this chapter. There is nothing to talk about here. AfroPowah (talk) 14:46, April 2, 2015 (UTC)


 * Well apparently there is, looking at the length of this talk page. Don't like it? Get out then. 14:56, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

I think I can help explain his fruit. After reading Chapter 782 I too thought his fruit was a paramecia like Magellans'. However if you remember Usopp was able to cut him into thirds, it means he must be a Logia. I think basically he is a Logia who uses his fruit to make his body appear larger than it is in order to trick his opponents. He was trying to trick Luffy, but Law knows Trebol so he knew to get a clean hit in you have to hit him right down the middle with Haki. Usopp's attack didn't work because he doesn't have Armament Haki, and Luffy's attack didn't work because he missed his true body. Law hit him right in the chest which is why he bled. 72.224.40.92 14:34, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Trebol is quite tall, and given the placement of his head in the image I linked, I don't think even his skinny body could fit like that into the smaller section. He would also have to know exactly where the cut was going to be and move, at which point, he could have just dodged it normally.

There's way too much speculation involved here, so I'd say the only viable options are "leave it as Logia" or change it to "unknown type". There is not enough evidence in my mind to conclude in favor of paramecia. This is exactly the kind of thing which will be answered either in a subsequent chapter, or an SBS. 14:41, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Here's one simple reason why he cannot be a logia: If he were a logia, Law would've had to use Haki to cut him. But Law cut him by using "Takt" to levitate his severed arm that was holding his sword. Thus, he couldn't have used Haki - unless you're going to claim that Haki can now be imbued "wirelessly"?

Why would that be an issue? Law can walk around without his heart in his body, so why would Haki not be usable through his Devil Fruit? Smoker can use Haki on his  fists after he sends them flying with his Devil Fruit, so why couldn't Law use Haki on his body parts that are affected by his DF? 72.224.40.92 14:52, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Unknown type would make no sense. If it's not a Logia or Zoan, then it's a Paramecia. 14:45, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

He just wanna trick Luffy, it is obviously Logia because Usopp sliced him to three pieces. However, how can Law's attack be imbued with Haki without touching it directly. His arm was cut off and his arm doesn't possess his soul or whatever. I dont know maybe Haki can be transferred remotely or it isnt Logia and Trebol was avoiding attack similar to illustration. 160.75.22.240 14:47, April 2, 2015 (UTC)


 * I was late due to edit conflict. --160.75.22.240 14:49, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Definitely he is trying to trick other about his power nature, going with the logia theory, I believe the anon's explanation fits in (knowing how is real body is like, you can see that Luffy is off the target). With the paramecia theory, there are pretty big doubts with Usop attack. This will surely be cleared later, either in chapters or SBS, but for now I'm leaning against it being logia, although I'm still not sure.

It's obvious now that it's Paramecia. After all, how can mucus be an element? He just used the mucus to cover his body to create a shell (gross), like how Mr. 3 created a Candle Champion. 15:00, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Meh, I don't know, now I'm leaning towards paramecia too... but still, the point is that there are more question marks with that Usop thing then anything else... if you say it's a logia, you can come up with explanations for the other doubts: "how can mucus be an element?" - Well what about the swamp? "He just used the mucus to cover his body to create a shell" - why do you think a logia can't do that too?

I think it's important to understand how Logia works. You may be able to change the size and shape of your body, but it's still your body. (See the Smoker v. Vergo fight.) In other words, you cannot "miss" a Logia's body by striking an extension of their element; that tactic would only work for a Paramecia.

The other quality of a Logia is that they effectively have no limit to the amount of their element that they can produce. The fact that Trebol would even try to put his arm back on implies that he either only has a specific amount of it (which he changes the shape and size of for attacks) or that he can only produce at a certain rate (so he could not re-grow an arm fast enough to keep fighting).38.112.107.82 15:33, April 2, 2015 (UTC)



I wouldn't be so sure about that though... when Ace make this kind flames, is not using his body, so striking them won't do you any good. Generally, logia users change their body, but they are not limited to use only their body to strike.

I assume Trebol is a logia, because of varying reasons. The one I most look at stems from chapter 760, page 11. After Law cuts Trebol with Radio Knife, he becomes a puddle. This meaning his main body should have transformed no? Also, why would Law feel the need to use radio knife, instead of an outright sword slash if he was a mere Paramecia, as well as Usopp's blow to Treol, so I assume he is a Logia... but hey, I could be wrong. --Rukiryo (talk) 15:51, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

As with all other instances, that doesn't show Trebol's body transforming. He just has a lot of mucus around him. And the Radio Knife argument can be used for a Logia as well: Why didn't he just use a regular haki sword slash? It actually makes more sense when you consider him a Paramecia; Law wasn't sure if he'd hit the actual body, so he played safe and prevented Trebol from reforming his mucus coat. 16:03, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Flame, light, and lightning are all energy, which can be projected and controlled separately. But those attacks are discharges; Ace doesn't turn his hand into a fireball, then attack- he releases energy as an attack. For something more tangible, let's consider the swamp element. If Caribou left a trail of gunk behind him, then it would cease to be a part of his body and you could destroy it without harming him. If he throws gunk at you, again, no harm done. But when you're using the element to get around (fly, walk slide, whatever) it's part of you and you can be hurt. There is no fake torso to slash if you're standing on it.

Long story short: when it comes to Logia, there's a difference between size manipulation and using a projectile. 38.112.107.82 16:05, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

There's one thing we haven't considered. Perhaps Trebol himself didn't eat the fruit, but the power got implanted into his cloak. We don't know how Logias would affect objects at this point since all the fruits we've seen attached to objects have been Zoans. If you look at him after Law used Sterben, none of the goo is coming from his actual body. It's all the cloak. If you notice, his beard is a different color than what's dripping off of him. I realize people are quick to dismiss new territory like this, but it should still be considered. 16:23, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Who's to say Law didn't use haki? Blackening has never been a requirement for Haki use (just look at Tashigi vs. Monet). All in all, I think there are a lot more assumptions that need to be made for Paramecia than for Logia. 16:26, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

If Law did use it, why did his work when Luffy's didn't? 16:28, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

JSD, I already explained why he couldn't. DP, that's an interesting theory, but we've seen him create mucus from his fingers and Viola called him a "Mucus Human". 16:32, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Well, Law made deep enough slices to actually reach Trebol's body, while Luffy's punches simply missed the main body, hitting instead the sides where only the empty coating exist (similar to how Sham does a hunchback to deceive Zoro into thinking he slashed his stomach). 16:41, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

I'll just take this time to remind everyone that it's possible to hit a logia without haki if you take them by surprise, like Luffy did in chapter 158. 73.197.58.43 17:12, April 2, 2015 (UTC) DS

But Luffy used Haki and still could not hit Trebol. 17:31, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Well, the idea is that Trebol's side and things are not an extension of his body. Even if they are made of his sticky stuff, they aren't a part of his body, and therefore not subject to Haki. 19:16, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

You still haven't explained how Law managed to cut him without Haki if he's a Logia. 19:23, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

The cloak thing was suggested in the previous discussion by a smart bloke who was ignored for his crackpot theories and habitual alcoholism.

19:31, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Law slashed Trebol with his lost arm which he cannot imbue his Haki without directly touching it. It seems like Beta Beta is Paramecia.Salamancc (talk) 19:47, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Okay, here are the facts that indicate it is Paramecia more than Logia: These are my arguments. 20:03, April 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Mucus is not so much as an element as it is a substance (similar to wax and poison).
 * 2) Swamp is an actual element, to an extent, as it consists of a force of nature, which mucus is NOT.
 * 3) Trebol hid his emaciated body underneath a thick cloak of mucus, unlike an actual Logia being consisted of it.
 * 4) Luffy could not strike Trebol's physical body despite being imbued with Haki.
 * 5) Law cannot imbue his severed hand and remote controlled sword with Haki (as it is no longer connected to his body), yet he can still injure Trebol.
 * 6) Have we ever seen Trebol actually completely melt away into a puddle of mucus, minus when he was sliced apart by Law, which doesn't look like a complete meltdown to be a Logia?
 * 7) Trebol himself states that he is not Logia when Luffy's punch failed to reach his body.

Everybody keeps mentioning Usopp's attack but never actually think about it. There's no evidence that he just didn't create a mucus clone like Mr 3's wax clones. Now that he said he isn't a Logia he isn't a Logia. SeaTerror (talk) 20:07, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Every arguments show it is a Paramecia except Usopp's attack and his shifting body while jumping.Salamancc (talk) 20:15, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

If you think about it, when we first saw him use his power, he trickled down from the tower to talk to Baby 5. His head was in one piece, so his body could have easily just been inside a blob. That was the one thing hanging me up about it, but I think I'm convinced he's a paramecia, especially considering you can't find a flammable adhesive like that in nature. 20:20, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Also a preemptive comment in case anybody tries to bring it up. The anime shows him turn into it but since anime isn't canon it doesn't count. Can be put under a manga and anime differences section though. SeaTerror (talk) 20:22, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the anime is not really reliable especially in this case since the scene was aired before the "plotwist" was revealed in the manga, therefore the anime crew most likely didn't even know about it. The clone theory might be a good explanation, although it's kinda becoming a cheap plotwist by Oda (see Doflamingo & Kyros).

Even in the anime the only scene where seems to turn into it is one where he jumps from one place to another, so it could just be the motion effect. Looking at the anime version of the Usopp scene, it's even easier to see how his body would fit in the upper section. 20:49, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Well, if Trebol himself admits he is not Logia, I actually see little argument needed. 21:16, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

This is how he survived usopp's attack  Judge Magister Pyarox  22:19, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Beto Launcher or Beta Betton Launcher?
I think this is not the same attack of Chapter 780.


 * Probably, they are different.--Salamancc (talk) 21:41, April 2, 2015 (UTC)