Template talk:Ninja-Pirate-Mink-Samurai Alliance Gallery

kid is a leader now if yes what section should his crew be under
the Kid Pirates are shown joining alliance in recent chapter he is leader of his own crew/group just like law and luffy and momo and neko/inuTo love this (talk) 14:43, March 20, 2020 (UTC)

A leader of a group in the alliance is different from one of the leaders of the alliance. Hyugoro is the leader of the yakuza, Kin'emon is the leader of the Scabbards... Rhavkin (talk) 15:05, March 20, 2020 (UTC)

no it is not if u are leader of a group in alliance u are a leader in the allaince law luffy momo inu and neko are all leaders of there own groups same as kid is. he is a equal to them
 * hyogro is not leader of all yakuza or even his own group currently he has respwct of other leaders but is not in charge of all of them
 * Ok we are not doing this again the Nine Red Scabbards are not there own group they fall under the kozuki famiy same with kyshiro family nowTo love this (talk) 15:12, March 20, 2020 (UTC)


 * A leader in the alliance is not a leader of the alliance. Kid was not one of the leaders who formed the alliance.
 * The yakuza bosses from Udon treat Hyogoro as their leader, even if they were from different factions in the past, now they are all under his leadership.
 * I'm not saying they aren't, just that there leaders of groups in the alliance who are not leaders of the alliance.

Rhavkin (talk) 15:59, March 20, 2020 (UTC)

There is no indication that Kid joined the alliance:
 * When Luffy called out to him after he showed up, Kid stated that he did not want them to have all the glory for taking down Kaido.
 * Neither Luffy, Law, nor the samurai were aware that they would run into Kid, and Kid referred to the waiting samurai he encountered earlier as obstacles to him.

I wouldn't go so far as to plainly say Kid is only going to Onigashima to take down Kaido himself, but right now that seems more likely than him officially joining forces with the alliance, based on what we know right now. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 16:10, March 20, 2020 (UTC)


 * yes it is those not matter if he wasnt there when first was formed kid joined this alliance he not taking orders from any of them he has same amount of authority


 * no they do not they respect him and listen to him alot but he is not there leader


 * last time I am saying this they are not there own group they fall under kozuki family they are a sub group so the nine,the kyoshiro family, and my Amtyama thieves all fall under this so no kinemon would never be consider a leader because momo is his

if that's the case kid pirates shouldn't be on this page anywhere yet but if we agree they joined the alliance kid should be under leader section and his group under membersTo love this (talk) 16:17, March 20, 2020 (UTC)

They are just like the Grand Fleet and G-5, but we can't ignore them working together toward a certain goal, which is what alliances are. Maybe we should have "Allies" separate from "Other Members"? Rhavkin (talk) 16:21, March 20, 2020 (UTC)

ok grand fleet and g-5 shouldnt even be on this page
 * grand fleet falls under straw hats sense they are only loyal to them / affilated with them really its same thing for nine and other groups loyal to kozuki family


 * G-5 was never really ally to them they juat did t try to stop themTo love this (talk) 16:25, March 20, 2020 (UTC)

This page was originally about the Straw Hat-Heart Pirates Alliance, which then evolved with the Minks and Samurai present. With this in mind, having the G-5 and the Grand Fleet there is not wrong since they joined forces with the original alliance.

Kid at most is an reluctant ally like Smoker. He's not really a leader or anything of the sort.KingCannon (talk) 17:04, March 20, 2020 (UTC)

kid controls a faction that would be part of alliance he isnt like other people under ally section saying he isnt leader ia bascically saying he below those who are and smoker wasnt trying help bring kaido down he just helping his man escape.To love this (talk) 17:12, March 20, 2020 (UTC)

Smoker did more then that: even after his men were saved, he did not arrest the Straw Hats nor Law, something he wasn't against after Alabasta, and his actions against Ceasar and Doflamingo hirt Kaido.

Either way, the topic is about Kid status within the alliance, not the Kid Pirates being allies, so stop removing them from the template. Rhavkin (talk) 18:23, March 20, 2020 (UTC)

the discussion is about should kid pirates be consider members of alliance and if yes were should they be placed so until we all come to agreement of more info is revealed stop changeing the gallery follow the rulesTo love this (talk) 19:10, March 20, 2020 (UTC)

There is a difference between being a member and being an ally, as I mentioned three hours ago. Also, the Kid Pirates were listed as allies for a week since 974 came out, according to the rules, if you had a problem with that, you should have talked about it then. Right now, you're just saying that since they are not included as you think they should, they shouldn't be included at all. The work with the alliance, and will continue to do so until shown otherwise. Thus they should be included in the allies section of the template. Rhavkin (talk) 19:44, March 20, 2020 (UTC)

this last time i am saying this this is discuisson if they should be on this page and if yes were should they be listed it doesnt not matter if they were there for a week or a year as soon a discuission is made the page is to be revert back to before it was made until this discuisson is done and we all make majority agreement they will stay removed if u dont like that rule go talk to admins about changeing it but until then u will follow this rule just like rest of us have to. memebrs are groups straw hat pirrates kozuki family mink tribe and heart pirates l, the kid lirates are group led by guy who is not member of sub member of any of those groups so again my postion is they are not allies they are members of this allianceTo love this (talk) 20:56, March 20, 2020 (UTC)

First of all, if you think you can revert a year long edit because you don't like, let me inform you that you're wrong. After an edit there is a grace period of few days, and afterwards that is the template, any any changes, even reverts, needs to be discussed before the edits are made, not after you start an edit war. Learn the rules before you preach them, especially since you are preaching them wrong.

As for your poor arguments, Law has no jurisdiction over the Straw Hats as seen in chap 930 page 13 when Usopp refuse his orders. The Yakuza doesn't follow Luffy orders as seen in chap 952 page 10. Those are proves of a leader without jurisdiction, and a sub group that does not follow a leader. Kid is aiding them in the takedown of Kaido, thus he is an ally.

So the Kid Pirates are part of the alliance forces, and Kid is not one of the leaders of the alliance, so they are just allies. Rhavkin (talk) 21:29, March 20, 2020 (UTC)

1)Go and read the rules when talk page is made to discuss a edit past or present the edit it to be removed until the discuisson is done does not matter how long it been up until the tlk page is done u leave as ot was before the frekaing edit happen so stop acting like child and grow up and follow rules just like rest us and dont start edit war because u dont like it learn to wait if others agree they go back up if they dont it stays down but until either one follow the rules. your edits do not superseded anyone else we follow rules u do the same.

2)take five seconds and think just five there are three sections for this page leaders l, memebers and allies are kid pirates subordinate group like grand fleet answer no are they un organzation group that all fall under a generic name like yakuza no they are not are they a singular person who kot offically affilated with group but still claim loyalty to them like riku family elizbeth or tama l etc answer is NO but guess what they are a singular core group that follow command of one specific person YES they are they follow kid same way straw hats follow luffy heart pirates follow law and kozuki family follow momo because just like them kid represents his crew in this alliance making him a leader if we use your poorexcuse for argument then then there be no need for memebers section at all it just be leaders and allies

and wow so your agrument is because in scence that obivously comical usopp refuse to listen laws order of dieing instead snitching about there plans as proof that leaders do not have jurdiscation and really i wait what order did luffy give yakuza did they not follow go ahead tell me?

the kid pirates are members of alliance not allies and kid is a leader because of that fact To love this (talk) 22:00, March 20, 2020 (UTC)


 * 1) Here are the rules, which clearly stat (twice) that a page should stay as it was before the edit war, and this this started when you added Kid to the leader section, the Kid Pirates in the allies section is the original. KNOW THE RULES BEFORE YOU PREACH THEM! Unless you can provide a rule that says otherwise, and source it, stop undoing the edits.
 * 2) What make you think those are the criteria for those sections? Who said the allies are just subordinate groups, group of generic name, or single person? Allies, as shown on the section can be a number of different thing, like groups affiliated with one of the key members (SHGF), an independent group that works with the alliance but is not part of them (G-5), a person who works with the alliance but is not part of them (O-Lin), and even someone who helped the alliance without even being part of their plans (Elizabello). There are no rules to being allies, so don't try saying that because they don't fit a category other allies fit into, then they are not allies.
 * 3) The scene being "obviously comical" is your opinion, and the Yakuza in the chapter I mentioned, after joining Hyogoro, try to kill Luffy, who told them to let him go, but only listen to Hyogoro, who isn't a leader of the alliance, proving that being a leader of the alliance doesn't give you authority over all of it's members.

Rhavkin (talk) 06:23, March 21, 2020 (UTC)


 * THE PAGE BEFORE THE EDIT WAR STARTED DID NOT HAVE THE KID PIRATES THERE WILL U FREAKING LISTEN FOR ONCE THE DISCUISSION IS ABOUT IF THEY SHOULD BE HERE ON THIS PAGE AND IF SO WHERE THIS HOW PAGE LOOKED BEFORE THEY APPEARED

subordinate groups Straw Hat Grand Fleet group of generic name to classify people Yakuza
 * That is lirteally what all of freaking people and groups in ally section are describe as

people who have no offical affilation to any of them but still help cause situion benefit them as well Tama Charlotte Linlin G-5 Riku Family Elizabello II

there are rules for allies if there werent every person that every helped the crew ould be listed in section.


 * Any one with I.Q higher then orochi could tell that scence was comical it was meant to be funny and omg so was yakuza scence dude u really need to stop here because if your really trying use comical scence as arguments

and this last time i am tell u this stop editing page with the stuff were discussing on the talk page do not try say oh i made new section for them so its differnt now its not wait until the talk page is doneTo love this (talk) 14:50, March 21, 2020 (UTC)


 * The Kid Pirates were added on March 15, you removed them on March 20. The edit war is about their removal, not their addition. So far all who have comment about the subject agreed that thy are allies, so stop removing them.
 * You cant categorize the allies. The fact that there some are groups and some are individuals, some follow one subgroup of the alliance, and some are independent, some joined to fight Kaido and some joined earlier for a different reason, all of that proves that you can't say the Kid Pirates shouldn't be included.
 * And even going by your misguided categorizations, since there is one subordinate group, and one group with generic name, why couldn't there be one crew?
 * What makes you think it was comical? was Usopp never shown to be a coward? What about his willingness to say anything to save his life contradict his personality? Is Usopp cowardliness sometimes used for comedic effect? Yes. Does it proves this scene is comical? No.
 * You need to re-read the rules of edits. You can't remove what you don't like and then start a discussion about it. If you disagree with something, First start a discussion, Second try to convince others or wait about a week of no comments, and Third edit the page. Adding back the Kid Pirates is the way the template should be until this discussion is over. Accept it.

Finally, if you use "freaking" or insult someone's IQ, that may be a cause from suspension, or even a ban. Read this before your next comment. Know that someone not agreeing with you does not make that person lesser. Watch your words. Also, I am not a dude. Rhavkin (talk) 15:37, March 21, 2020 (UTC)


 * It doesnt matter they were added on the march 15 the rules clearly state the page should be reverse to how it was before the edit war started the kid pirates were not on this page before edit war started


 * Yes u can categorize this groups to show who usually is in ally section for alliances so that random people groups etc are not consntanly added to sections if we go by your way of thinking germa 66 and fire tank pirates would be under allies as well which would make zero sense.
 * Yes it is comical scenceevery time usopp acting pike a coward has been a comical scence this manga same as every time buggy has appeared it has been for laughs i can not believe i have to explain this like some one asking to explain how luffy jumping off zou is funny or ace and whitbeard death scence was sad.
 * YOU NEED TO FOLLOW THE RULES it doesnt matter if u think your right or do not like how something is done you are not special or better any one else on this wiki we follow talk page rule same as we do that means until it is done u do not added your edit back nor do u try to sneak it in a new way u wait until a decision is made on the talk page u dont have to like it but u will follow it like rest of us do.

finally freaking isn't insult of any kind and i.Q lower then orochi is broad statement for any one who trys to pass off a questionable arguments as facts but know what i am not about to tell u why using comical scence as proof makes zero sense u have realize for your self dude. but do u know what will get people banned starting edit wars and not following wiki rules. u need to learn u bound by rules like every one else and acting like u can do what ever u want is not fair to rest of us who follow these rulesTo love this (talk) 16:12, March 21, 2020 (UTC)

Alright, here's my input on this:
 * I still don't consider the Kid Pirates to be part of the alliance. An alliance is a pact formed to work together for a mutual goal. While Kid appears to have the same goal as Luffy and Law, there's zero indication that he is working together with them. If anything it seems more likely that he's operating alone and just ran into them.
 * There cannot be a distinction between "Members" and "Allies" on this gallery. This is an alliance, so any allies here are members. Whether this be the groups who allied with Luffy and Law on Punk Hazard/Dressrosa to take down Caesar and Doflamingo, or the groups who joined the alliance on Wano.
 * Thus, Big Mom should be removed. Big Mom was never part of the alliance; she went to Udon for a different objective than the rest of the group.
 * I'd propose changing the "Leaders" section to "Founders". Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 17:15, March 21, 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you for locking that page

my input they offically were not allies but they all worked together for a common goal.
 * yes its not offical said that kid joined the alliance but i feel this situation is like punk hazard one with marines and germa 66 in whole cake arc


 * I feel there shouod be differnt section for members and allies because members take direct orders/affilated with representative


 * i would be ok with leaders be turned into foundersTo love this (talk) 17:36, March 21, 2020 (UTC)

I hope now you see your mistake, since Kaido reverted the page and now you accept Kid Pirates were in the allies section before you started the edit war. That is a good step forward.

As KingCannon said, Kid is a reluctant ally, but an ally nonetheless. He is not working against the alliance, fighting over who will beat Kaido, and he did attacked the enemy ships with members of the alliance, so he is working with the alliance. Him not calling himself an ally, is more to do with his character then anything else. Law broke the alliance on Dressrosa, but Luffy disagreed, so Kid not calling himself an ally does not mean he isn't one. I don't remember Smoker, for example, saying that they were allies, but he did return Law a favor when the two fought Vergo. We can't say that a person or a group that worked with the alliance for a certain goal aren't allies, that is basically the definition of "Ally", not "A person and\or group that state they are allies".

There is a section for members, which I added to during the discussion, but you kept reverting it despite that edit had nothing to do with the discussion. Pages can still be edited during a discussion regardless of the discussion results, but you just undid based on your ego, and didn't even saw what your undoing. Rhavkin (talk) 06:29, March 23, 2020 (UTC)

I made changes to the template layout to streamline the groups display. I still disagree on the Kid Pirates, but majority supports it for now. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 00:06, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

Omg kaido changed the page back and kept the kid becuase majority of people want them there people unlike u who disrespected the talk page rules and then start edit war because that are how things are done we wait and. respect the rules u need to learn this follow the rules or do not edit simple as that.

U CAN NOT ADDED THE THING BEING DISCUSSED IN TALK PAGE TO THE PAGE UNTIL DISCUISSON IS DONE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE AGREE TO IT!!!''' why is that so hard for u to understand it isnt hard. It doesnt matter that u added something i agree with u still broke the rules of if i see some one has added Lami to Will of D. gallery page (something i want ) u know what i am do i am go remove that edit it becauae talk page majority said she shouldnt be there. it makes zero sense if a person can added there edit which is being discussed to page if that was allowed there be no needed for the talk page rules. so this is last time i am telling u this "follow the rules of talk page" i shouldnt ''' have to ask admin to lock a page because one user wants to act like rules do not apply to them i follow them admin follow them every one else follow them u better follow themTo love this (talk) 21:28, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

You do realize Kaido reverted to the version with the KP because that is the original before the edit war you started by refusing to acknowledge what the original was, right? The reason he kept them in his edit is the majority in the talk page, despite his personal opinion. Also, you shouldn't be embarrassed of asking an admin for help, just remember that you asking doesn't mean you're in right. Rhavkin (talk) 21:44, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

Kaido dod it to that revert because majority people want that edit if they didnt he reverted to verison befroe the were added wjay is tjat hard for u to understand ? the only embarrassing thing is that i had to asl u to follow the rules no one should have ask another user such simple rules.u need to understand that rules apply to u as well any one else .To love this (talk) 21:54, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

I am not gonna argue with you about what Kaido did, but please don't assume why that was done that way. You keep saying "follow the rules" is meaningless when I pointed out to you the rule on March 21, but you were the one that didn't follow it. It's easy to say someone doesn't follow the rules when you don't know them. Rhavkin (talk) 22:00, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

unlike u i did follow the rules i created a talk page to disicuss it and wait until majority decide and didnt start edit war because i dont think rules are for me. wbich isnt a hard thing to doTo love this (talk) 22:12, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

Again, the rule is revert to original and start a talk page before edit. You refuse to acknowledge what the original was. Rhavkin (talk) 22:20, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

The rule and i am getting tired of saying this is Do not edit the page until the talk page( topic) is done and agreed upon. You chose to ignore this ruleTo love this (talk) 22:25, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

"Until the issue is resolved, the page should stay the way it was before the edit war". That is the edit I did and you kept undoing. I follow the rule as stated in the guidebook, you ignored that part. Rhavkin (talk) 22:36, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

"Edit War" Rules When editors go back and forth removing the content of one another's edits is called an "edit war". When this happens, the users should stop changing the page and use the talk page to resolve the issue.That is the rule the rule u hve such hard time following u need to fix thatTo love this (talk) 22:41, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

Keep reading From where you left off. Rhavkin (talk) 23:21, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

You do anytjing to ignore this rule i seeTo love this (talk) 05:59, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

I agree with removing the people and groups who only allied to take down Caesar and Doflamingo. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 01:33, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

Mt. Atama Thieves and Kyoshiro Family(when chapter is officially relase)
these groups do not need be in this ally secion both of there leaders are memebers of kozuki familyTo love this (talk) 21:02, March 20, 2020 (UTC)

Former members of the family who only recently joined. The groups were formed outside of the family. Rhavkin (talk) 21:34, March 20, 2020 (UTC)

really ok when did Denjiro leave the kozuki family go head tell me chapter this happen in u cant cause never happen?

Kyoshiro Family is a yakuza family so even if we use your way of thinking ally sections it would make zero sense to have them right next to gallery that says yakuza.

Ashura Doji is member of kozuki family once again he not leader like he surbinate.he rejoined he is leader of that group it lirteally implyed any one loyal to him is loyal to kozuki family them. sayikg they should be under gallery section is like saying Inuarashi Musketeer Squad need a spot under alliesTo love this (talk) 22:09, March 20, 2020 (UTC)

They're not members of the Kozuki Family. Only their leaders are. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 17:15, March 21, 2020 (UTC)

They are not blood members yes but reatiners fall under as memebers of family because they serve them a subordinatesTo love this (talk) 17:22, March 21, 2020 (UTC)

Chapter 975 clearly shows that they have six distinctive group outside of those led by the founders. Rhavkin (talk) 16:47, March 22, 2020 (UTC)

what?To love this (talk) 23:41, March 22, 2020 (UTC)

In 975, each group and its size as part of the alliance are stated. Mt. Atama Thieves and Kyoshiro Family were among them so they are confirmed to be a subgroup with in alliance. Rhavkin (talk) 06:11, March 23, 2020 (UTC)

I added Mt. Atama Thieves to the gallery, but left off Kyoshiro Family as they are part of the yakuza which already has a gallery spot. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 00:07, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

They are counted separably in chapter 975. Rhavkin (talk) 07:02, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

Only Denjiro is the ally in that situation. No evidence the rest are on his side to betray Orochi. SeaTerror (talk) 09:07, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

You can't honestly believe he let a thousand criminals free, and sailed a ship by himself, can you? Plus, he stated at least 200 members of the family are with him. Rhavkin (talk) 09:14, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

omg No they are not sub groups in the alliance Inuarashi Musketeer Squad and Nine Red Scabbards where mention as well but were not listing them because they are sub groups of larger groups that are already listed. Mt. Atama Thieves and Kyoshiro Family leaders are memebers of Kozuki Family and there sub group Nine Red Scabbards there own groups should not be listed it is waste of space on the pages if Revolutionary Army was some how in this alliance we wouldnt all them then add sub groups west army,north army south army and east army or Donquixote Pirates being allies woth Beasts Pirates we dont list the diamnte squad etc.To love this (talk) 21:49, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

seaterror again the leader of organzation those needed the permisson of his people to ally with another groupTo love this (talk) 21:49, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

Read Kaido comment from March 21. Rhavkin (talk) 21:52, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

😑😑 u do see the part were he says the kyoshiro family shouldnt be there right and again u added them woth out letting talk page finsh so o see u dont respect admins on this wiki eitherTo love this (talk) 21:57, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

How ignorant can you get? Look at the template history. I wasn't the one that added them back. Rhavkin (talk) 22:03, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

what you u didnt do it this time? maybe you wont pull this stunt again To love this (talk) 22:18, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

You admitting you were wrong, maybe there is hope indeed. Rhavkin (talk) 22:22, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

Yep see how easy it is to say when your wrong To love this (talk) 22:26, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

Now you need to learn from this experience. Rhavkin (talk) 22:31, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

yep learn that dealing with u is almost as bad as dealing with a world nobleTo love this (talk) 22:36, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

That's right. Just like Mjosgard, even though we are equal in this community, I'll smack you over the head for abusing your position. Rhavkin (talk) 23:42, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

Ya whay ever u say CharlosTo love this (talk) 06:00, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

All those extra allies should be removed from the alliance gallery. They are not part of the Ninja-Pirate-Mink-Samurai Alliance. They do not need to be there. All that is needed are the Kozuki Family, Straw Hats, Heart Pirates, and Mink Tribe. We have to stop adding everyone just because they helped out (because they are neither officially or unofficially part of the alliance). One or two is okay, ten is not.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 21:12, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

Only Law and the Straw Hats were part of an alliance before this got named at all. This alliance wasn't actually formed until Zou arc. So all of the Punk Hazard and Dressrosa characters should be removed including the Grand Fleet since they were never involved with this alliance. SeaTerror (talk) 23:53, March 25, 2020 (UTC)

I agree with NP & ST. We should keep affiliates to characters in Wano and/or opposing Kaido and Orochi. The allies in PK and Dressrosa were after Caesar and Doflamingo respectively; they weren't really aiming for Kaido.
 * 🏴‍☠️👸🏻 (talk) 00:10, March 26, 2020 (UTC)

1) while technically it was formed in yonko saga This alliance was made to take down three people Caesar,Doffy and kaido doffy and ceaser were beaten in dressrosa tjose people helped in each arc should be ally section woth former symbol or tje star symbol saying who they heped take down doffy and cc

2) all those people and groups in ally section a should stay they have same goal as the alliance and but not offically members or connected to founders groups now grand fleet and Mt. Atama Thieves i can kind understand being removed sense we already have the founders crews and/or famliy thereTo love this (talk) 00:53, March 26, 2020 (UTC)

This gallery is literally just the Kozuki Family page all over again. They are not necessary and are honestly crowding the template. There's a very good reason why we don't go adding everyone that helped out Straw Hats into their template - because it is extra. Galleries should show immediate members and an important affiliate or two at most, not everyone that lends a hand.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 09:16, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

That is completely false. The alliance was only formed to take down Kaidou. And that was the Straw Hat and Law alliance, not this one. This alliance wasn't formed until the Zou arc. There were no ninja or minks in Punk Hazard or Dressrosa. SeaTerror (talk) 18:57, March 28, 2020 (UTC)

I don't think the reason for becoming allies is relevant, after all not all alliance are together for a single goal:
 * Buggy wanted to kill Luffy, while Alvide had a crush on him, and since then, they rarely went after him.
 * The Saruyama Alliance wanted to find the Golden City, and now the Emerald City.
 * The SH-GL-FF alliance wanted revenge, rescue, or both.
 * The NFMP-FP had the goal of taking over FMI, and to capture Shirahoshi.

In short, allies in alliance doesn't have to have to same goal, just to work together toward some goal(s), and alliances goals might change.

Since the origin in PH, the goal was to take down Kaido. Step One was Caesar, Step Two was Doflamingo, Step Three is Kaido. Having gathered more people at certain points to help a step, doesn't mean they aren't allies.

If anything, the unnamed Kozuki allies should be removed from the Kozuki Family gallery, and allies and subordinates of the Scabbards should be removed from there as well for the same reason we don't list the Straw Hats that traveled with Ace, or Moda in the Whitebeard Pirates gallery. Additionally, we don't list the Sun Pirates as the WP allies just because of Jinbe. However, the Kyoshiro Family and Mt. Atama Bandits joined the alliance specifically. Rhavkin (talk) 19:51, March 28, 2020 (UTC)

what are u talking about SeaTerror that was there goal entire time the straw hat - heart alliance goal was to take down kaido the Ninja-Pirate-Mink-Samurai Alliance goal is same goal they just added more people who wanted to helpTo love this (talk) 04:29, March 30, 2020 (UTC)

SeaTerror is right though. How can Smoker, Brownbeard, or Sabo be a Member or an Affiliate of an alliance that wasn't even founded then. If there was an official alliance named Defeat-Caesar-Defeat Doflamingo Alliance, then yes they would be part of it, but there isn't so they cannot be on this page. You can't just put them in as members of an alliance if the alliance never even formed when they were helping out.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 04:50, March 30, 2020 (UTC)

The alliance goal from the start was to take down Kaido (chap 696), Caesar was a step to destruct Doflamingo while they destroy the SMILE factory to weaken Kaido. The plan did backfire (a lot) but the goal didn't changed. Rhavkin (talk) 05:12, March 30, 2020 (UTC)

Yes. The Straw Hat and Law alliance. There were no minks or ninja on Punk Hazard or Dressrosa. SeaTerror (talk) 06:31, March 31, 2020 (UTC)

This is the Straw Hat and Law alliance; it grew. Unless you claim it broke at a certain point and this is a different alliance. Rhavkin (talk) 15:14, March 31, 2020 (UTC)

what are u talking about the alliance goal was to take down kaido getting rid of Donquixote Doflamingo  and ceaser was apart of the plan a allaince can grow it started with luffy and laws crew but added kozuki family minks laterTo love this (talk) 23:41, March 31, 2020 (UTC)

Who Belongs on Gallery
Ok, since the gallery is being changed to show "Members" and "Former Members," I'm just going to state that a majority of those are not nor were they ever "Members." Smoker or Sabo or Hack or etc.. were never members of this alliance in any capacity. I'm really hesitant to even call them an ally or affiliate of this specific alliance, let alone member.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 00:27, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

the people listed are helping them fight against kaido and big mama or helped fight against Donquixote Doflamingo thye ar epart of this allaince because that fact it would make zero sense not to list them in gallery sectionsTo love this (talk) 01:09, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

ps the gallery is not being changed it was already changed a while back after another talk page discussion was finshed the change was agreed upon and was put in place by a admin of this wiki the former memebers sectionis somthing i added recently added sense it looked weird to havd all those people with former symbol scattered around if u want remove that section only and put them all back unddr member then fine but the gallery is and will remind as admin changed it before if 7 want chang back before that make new discussion or talk to admin who changed it01:09, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

No mink or ninja helped against Doflamingo. SeaTerror (talk) 01:15, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

I have to agree the likes of the Kid Pirates or Sabo shouldn't be listed as members. They might have joined forces, but weren't part of the alliance proper. KingCannon (talk) 01:25, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

the minks are helping fight against kaido he is a target of this alliance just like how doffy and caeser were before they do not needed to help fought against every one who was a target of the alliance all they need to fight is one so if they helped againstDonquixote Doflamingo or Caesar Clown or helping against kaido right now then they cam be addedTo love this (talk) 01:36, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

It shouldnt be needed for some one say oh i am joing your allaince the fact is sabo helped against Donquixote Doflamingo and his crew who was target of alliance the kid pirates while reluctant members they are helping crew fight against kaidoTo love this (talk) 01:36, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

Someone that helped someone out does not equal being members of said alliance. Luffy and the Straw Hats helped out Mont Blanc Cricket and his Saruyama Alliance accomplish their goal of finding the City of Gold, does that make Luffy a member of the alliance? No, it doesn't. At most one is an ally and not a member. And even then, I do not believe we need to list everyone that helps out, especially if the alliance was never even formed when Smoker or Sabo were around.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 02:34, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

ok 1 uh u might one go to straw hat pirates page under allies for them 2 you are using wrong example what u should said the the saruyama allaince helping them get to sky island doesnt make straw hats members of the allainces because the straw hat goal was to.get there finding city of god was just by product of that 3 ok here def of allaince (An alliance is a relationship among people, groups, or states that have joined together for mutual benefit or to achieve some common purpose, whether or not explicit agreement has been worked out among them. Members of an alliance are called allies. A formal military alliance is not required for being perceived as an ally—co-belligerence, fighting alongside someone, is enough. According to this usage, allies become so not when concluding an alliance treaty but when struck by war ) not anawer yes or no are all those people amd groups shown worming or worked for mutual goal? 4 This alliance started in punk hazard arc to take down three people cc,doffy and kaido. CC was beaten in ph arc with help of marines, doffy was with help of grand fleet riku family elizbeth and R.Army it evovled into this current format in zou arc by adding the minks and adding orochi to the list of targets and now in wano arc they are getting ready to take down the last person on there list kaido they are getting help from these people in wano and kids crew who have same goal as them 5 The only groups i say should be removed is the Mt. Atama Thieves and Denjiro family sense they are lirteally sub groups of another subgroup sense there leaders are memebers of Nine Red Scabbards who members of kozuki family and if were going have sub groups then Inuarashi Musketeer Squad and Guardians ...and grand fleetTo love this (talk) 05:21, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

1. The term Allies is different from the term Members.

2. Again the Saruyama Alliance is an alliance. We do not put Luffy into that gallery and say he is a Member of the alliance even though he helped them achieve their goal. But achieving the goal of finding the City of Gold was a byproduct you say, well so is Smoker helping take down Caesar. They were there to capture the Straw Hats - taking down Caesar was a mere byproduct. Same with Sabo being in Dressrosa - also byproducts, they were there for different reasons, just like Straw Hats were in Skypeia for a different reason.

3. You are using a very loose definition of alliance. Based on precedent on this wiki, we have only defined alliances as actual formal alliances, as such needing the term Members. For unofficial "I help you, you help me" situations, although it is an "alliance," we don't go making a whole page for it with a gallery and put them together and call them Members. This page is of an official alliance and therefore there's rules of who is a member.

4. This specific alliance did not start in Punk Hazard Arc. It was literally formed during the Zou Arc. There is literally nothing more to say about this point.--Nightmare Pirates (talk) 06:10, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

1.Did u even read the def i showed?

2.They are allies of the straw hat pirates look.at page your self,Smoker went to ph for straw hats and when he found out CC was there he decied to try take h8m in as well he only stop because deal he made with law,sabo and his group lirteally went to dressrosa to take down doffy (i.e.his weapons business) the straw hats and them went to bring down doffy and his business az well (S.M.i.l.e.s) again same goal the sauryama alliance city gold was a by product the ph and dressrosa stuff was main goal

3.Dude that is lirteally the defination of alliance. and there no precedent set for this page this is only page like it no other alliance has own page deidicated to it what every decided on this page with precedent for future ones like it

4Dude for last time this Alliance is evolution of original one they still have the same goal they just added more people which is allowed allaince doesnt have to staybsame when first created it can evolve and become bigger smaller or have entirely new goalTo love this (talk) 07:13, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

I read the definition you said and I am telling you it makes no sense. And we do have other alliances. I mentioned Saruyama Alliance already (which I have used to prove my point multiple times). Furthermore, how is it the same alliance if it was founded after the Straw Hats and Heart Pirates made their own alliance. You can't just go claiming that Ninjas and Minks are someone in that alliance alongside Smoker and Sabo if there were no ninjas or minks. Also, let me make this clear, using the term Member is not the same as Ally. You keep telling me to look at the page with allies of the Straw Hats, and I keep telling you - an ally is not the same as a member. Stop ignoring facts, please.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 07:29, April 2, 2020 (UTC)

Those are two separate questions: When did the alliance "started" and which prson and/or group are considered member, ally, or nither. The second question can only be answer after the first. I think that we can all agree that if the alliance started at Zou, Smoker is neither an ally or a member. Also, the first question is relevent to many article, first and foremost, the main page, and should be discussed on that talk page alone. Rhavkin (talk) 07:54, April 2, 2020 (UTC)