Talk:Haki/Busoshoku Haki

Background Section
A lot of the wording in the background section doesnt really make a lot of sense. 173.48.16.6 02:40, February 2, 2014 (UTC)Annoymous

be more specific-- 02:43, February 2, 2014 (UTC)

Caesar Clown
Caesar Clown is Busoshoku Haki user too.

He stabbed Monet's (Logia's) heart instead of Smoker's heart (also Logia).

Not really a confirmation of anything. Logia abilities don't automatically activate (unless they're trained to do so, like Crocodile's) 22:32, February 2, 2014 (UTC)

Uhmmm..NO. Why is this even an active discussion? Gal gave the exlanation, I agree 100%.

Trivia & Hardening Validity
"The reason of this could be that Oda simply decided to use it after the time skip, (especially to demonstrate visually the use of Haki of his main characters, like Luffy, who before the time skip could not use this type of Haki) or he did not get the idea until that time."

12th Supernova, if you can prove that this line is canonical (it's not, it's an assumption based on nothing), then we will use that description. This line of trivia is dangerous because it implies:

1. Marineford war combatants used hardening but we couldn't see it.

2. Oda retconned.

3. But wait it's a visual effect.

For now, we are sticking with my updated description:

'''The Hardening version of Busoshoku Haki, introduced by Luffy after the timeskip, seems to be the preferred and stronger version of Busoshoku Haki by many, if not, all characters who can use it. However, during the Battle of Marineford where some of the most powerful pirates, marines, and shichibukai alike fought, only the invisible application was being used. After the timeskip, flashbacks and characters in the New World proved that the Hardened version was the more common superior application, begging the question why strong combatants in the Battle of Marineford didn't use it.'''

Which states:

1. All strong characters are using hardening in not only the post-TS timeline but also flashbacks.

2. Characters have used the invisible application post-TS but no invisible application has been shown to be superior to hardening.

3. Marineford War combatants didn't use hardening because there is no evidence to support it.

4. It's interesting because they are STRONG characters that didn't use hardening.

5. And that it's a MYSTERY why they didn't use it. No fluff, speculation, or attempts were made to answer this specific question. It just is, because it's trivia.

"Visual cue" and inferred retcon are poor attempts at answering the question. If this was the case, then we wouldn't have multiple instances of hardening being referred to as "hardening" and not just "busoshoku haki". We also wouldn't have people still using invisible CoA.

Nexus32 (talk) 04:38, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

So many things are wrong with both I don't even know where to start. I'm in favor of just canning it completely. And you act like he's never retconned before. 04:46, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

It is most likely a retcon because Luffy is the only one who gives it a specific name. It is probably better to just remove it since both versions contain some speculation. Also, it's pretty rude to declare what we are going with before anyone else has posted. The way discussions like this work is usually majority rules. 04:58, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

I think it's important trivia, cos it is a fairly common question. I'm against removing it completely, and it's not like we've never used speculation about Haki before.

08:25, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

It's one thing to speculate about something solid. It's another thing entirely to speculate about something as uncertain as this. We're running completely blind on the reason behind it. Just say it is unknown why some people's haki has been seen while others' hasn't. 08:30, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. 10:34, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

who knows, maybe it's like the limewater expt we did as kids. blow enough air into the colourless liquid and it becomes milky. keep blowing air and it becomes colourless again. So maybe the use of Haki by the weak and the strongest don't have a blackening effect. sigh.. speculation. Bahamut.Egg (talk) 11:48, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

You're implying that carbon dioxide makes Haki change colour...

11:51, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

Hence, Caesar is the ultimate Haki master. See discussion above.

Anyway, since we're going off topic, can I start a new one? or rather, this one about the Admirals' shield  Bahamut.Egg (talk) 11:56, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

You should make a new section for that. 21:10, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

"Although the black skin effect of its usage is common after the timeskip, it was not seen at all before. The reason for this is currently unknown."

This updated line implies that there is only one form of Busoshoku Haki. This is simply not true and I question whether any of you know anything about Haki. We know there is Hardening and we know there is the invisible application. The black skin effect is most undoubtedly hardening and not just some random effect that people who can use CoA throw in. There is a CLEAR difference. Attempting to convince anyone there is only one form of CoA honestly rubbing thousands of OP fans the wrong way... Here's how it should be worded:

"Although Hardening had existed before the timeskip, it was not revealed to have been used in the past until a flashback with Garp and Chinjao, which was shown after the timeskip.  Before the timeskip, the manga did not show anyone using Hardening. The reason for this is currently unknown."

Nexus32 (talk) 03:05, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

What a coincidence, because I question whether you can say anything without sounding like a rude and pretentious prick. We're going with what we have until we learn more. 04:02, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

If you don't want to be nominated for a ban, perhaps you should carefully consider your next reply. Let's walk through this conversation again. I said exactly why this piece of trivia is incredibly misleading by giving everyone 3 points of speculation/assumptions/jargon it implied. Next, I took the time to revise the piece and left no mystery for what I was implying, as I wrote 5 statements (all of which is factual or can be evinced by manga canon; and all citations of which I will supply if requested) under the summary I wrote. You come in, tell us both summaries are wrong, and say it should just be canned. You did not even try to dispute or contest anything I said yet you expect me to take you seriously. It's your lucky day - I will because you are a respected, experienced editor here. Some random (-PœtaNæs-) jumps in and removes the piece, rewrites with his wording, without even participating in this Talk, after I was instructed not to edit it until we figured it out together. I come in; criticize the updated wording (respectfully) WITHOUT pointing out that I just became a victim of double standards... and you respond by calling me a "rude and pretentious prick." I have to suspect whether this random editor is your mule because you are incredibly upset. Maybe I rubbed you the wrong way by genuinely asking whether any of you who supported this edit even knew anything about haki. Why? For one, nothing I said contradicted anything in this article. Second, I can think of over a dozen people who will explain CoA in incredible detail, supporting everything I stated earlier. Three, I have citations that'll prove everything I said. It's your move. Redefine Busoshoku Haki for all of us (with manga proof) or concede. I advise the latter because you wont win. Nexus32 (talk) 05:18, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

You do realize that DP is an admin here and there's no way anyone would get banned for calling you on rudeness. It's his job to enforce rules here such as not using sockpuppets (what you call mules) and accusing him of that makes you look bad. He's right in calling you rude and pretentious because you didn't just state your argument, you stated it and then said that was what we were going with as though you could make that decision on your own. You need to be polite and willing to compromise or you will likely end up getting banned. 06:51, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

(eats popcorn) This ought to be fun.

06:54, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

I just checked and the user you accused of being a "mule" was only adding an external link and did nothing to the passage in dispute. Next time you accuse someone, at least check your facts. 06:56, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Maybe an assistant spilled some ink and Oda was like, OK, we'll go with it. Hawkinz340 (talk) 19:00, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Regardless, we're going to say it's unknown why sometimes it's dark and not other times until we learn more. Nexus, I oblige you to watch your temper from now on. 22:30, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Guys please calm down... I'm sure someone one day will ask about this on the SBS.. Naruichi96 (talk) 23:07, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Monkey D. Dragon
I think it is safe to assume that Monkey D. Dragon uses Busoshoku Haki. We've seen him stop Smoker from arresting Luffy on Loguetown.

What do you guys think ?

(sigh) I'm going to answer before DP removes this stupid section. No, he was not seen using haki. He didn't touch Smoker, let alone in Logia form. Saying that he has haki because he talked to a DF user is utterly ridiculous.

13:09, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

Clarification: Haki does not Disrupt Devil Fruit Attacks?
Say for example that a user of the Snip Snip fruit (ability to transform body into scissors, which can cut anything as paper) were to try and cut a haki user employing Busoshoku Haki. Would they be cut according to the fruit's ability? Or would they be able to defend against it with sufficient skill, namely haki? 206.45.29.4 18:05, November 4, 2014 (UTC)

this type of haki may not be equipped to attacks that are not from one's body except for weapons, or anything generated from one's own body

Does this mean that haki can't be imbued in stuff generated from one's own body, or it can. because didn't doflamingo imbue haki in his strings?64.126.35.32 07:05, November 8, 2014 (UTC)

So in regards to the original example, would they be cut according to the fruit's ability or is it possible to defend against it w/ sufficient skill?205.200.232.169 18:25, November 21, 2014 (UTC)

Sai & Boo
Both Sai & Boo are Busoshoku haki users so they need be added to the list of users in the bottom, tried editing it myself but templates confuse the shit out of me :/ Anima40 (talk) 12:19, December 18, 2014 (UTC)

cavendish???
when did he used b.haki?Marco 1907 (talk) 19:02, January 15, 2015 (UTC)

Doflamingo's haki coat?
This just occurred to me to ask this: should we mention about Doflamingo's ability to use his coat in conjunction with his haki as armor? We saw him use it first against Sanji's Poêle à Frire: Spectre, but it wasen't coated black. Then in the castle during the first fight with Luffy it was shown coated black when blocking his Jet Gatling. AsuraDrago 21:58, February 17, 2015 (UTC)

Can you link the pages in question? 02:39, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

I believe its page 3-4 on chapter 724 when he block Sanji's kicks:

then in 745 page 6 when he blocks Jet Gatling with his haki coated black: http://mangahead.com/Manga-English-Scan/One-Piece/One-Piece-745-English-Scan AsuraDrago 20:05, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

Haki vs Haki
So does chapter 778 confirms that when two "haki" clashes, the stronger one prevails? Like when a Marineford the admirals where able to defend themselves from haki-imbued attacks. Or did we took this for granted already?

Well, Haki reinforces a strike, but as Luffy showed before the timeskip a non-Haki attack can still break through Haki. I thought we took this for granted. All we know is that Zoro's strike and Haki combined was stronger than Pica's Haki and body combined.

16:07, February 26, 2015 (UTC)

No I was talking about how, for example, the admirals at Marineford were hit by haki-imbued attack but took little to no damage and were able to evade the attacks using their fruit powers.

1. Non-Haki physical strikes can break through Haki. (However, they still cannot attack Logia users even they broke their Haki.)

2. Stronger Haki nullifies weaker Haki. (Logia users can defend themselves with Haki against weaker Haki.)

3. Haki protects against Devil Fruit ability but stronger Haki + DF ability combined attack cannot be protected. (As shown in Vergo vs Law.)

85.97.124.126 18:52, February 26, 2015 (UTC).

Makes sense, AWC. I'd go with what the AWC said. 02:30, February 27, 2015 (UTC)

Well it's obvious that Zoro's stronger Haki defeated Pica's weaker one. 09:04, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

Sooo.... Can we close this now? 03:22, March 4, 2015 (UTC)

Yes. This is nothing new. 13:46, March 4, 2015 (UTC)

Armament Haki
So the article does say that there are two types of B. Haki but couldn't u say that Oda just needed a way to show people that the person was using Haki instead of like when Garp hit him in flashbacks where we were left wondering if he used Haki or not. It just doesn't make sense that everyone in the war didn't even use it even though we know that Doffy, whitebeard, and the admirals can use it.

another thing i may have just missed this but is there proof that it has been confirmed to have two different B haki? I have always thought it was just to have something to show that the person used haki. HB Fagen 13:43, March 2, 2015 (UTC)

Buso Koka = Busoshoku + Haoshoku
When Dof and Luffy were clashing with their hardened black Haki, he said "the clash of Haoshoku Haki", but they were not using it. It was happened twice, also when Chinjao and Luffy were fighting in Colosseum, Gatz said the same thing. I think, Buso Koka might be the combination of Busoshoku and Haoshoku Haki.--160.75.22.240 14:16, April 2, 2015 (UTC)


 * If it was true, there would be many Haoshoku users.--Salamancc (talk) 19:54, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Kuja Girls Haki?
Shouldn't we add Marguerite and the other Kuja girls? Heck at least the ones that have shown to use haki, like Marguerite.

Grievous67 (talk) 14:01, May 28, 2015 (UTC)

Definitely, I don't understand how they've been forgotten. 14:29, May 28, 2015 (UTC)

Only the ones showed using the Haki arrows. We can't add all of them. SeaTerror (talk) 18:34, May 28, 2015 (UTC)

Exactly as I said, "Heck at least the ones that have shown to use haki". The problem is that this wiki states all members of the Kuja tribe reach a level of knowing Haki so should we include only the ones that explicetely show it or all the known named Kuja members? The ones that have esplicically shown it with "explosive" arrows are Marguerite, Kikyo, Sweet Pea and Ran.

Grievous67 (talk) 20:19, May 28, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for changing it but I think that Ran did also shoot once an exploding arrow. Although that might have been in the anime, we should check.

Grievous67 (talk) 22:13, May 28, 2015 (UTC)

Kinemon & Kanjuro
These two are shown to be armament haki users against the bird cage this chapter. Anima40 (talk) 05:26, May 30, 2015 (UTC)

Don't worry they were added the day the episode came out

Grievous67 (talk) 13:56, June 2, 2015 (UTC)

Jinbe uses haki on a Logia?
So in Caribou's cover story Jinbe hits him even if he's in full logia form, a clear punch to the Logia form, isn't that proof enough? Or can it be simply attributed to fishman karate?

Grievous67 (talk) 14:30, August 14, 2015 (UTC)

This was another discussion somewhere. Talk:Fishman_Karate I think.

14:32, August 14, 2015 (UTC)

Okay then, nevermind. Thanks

Grievous67 (talk) 15:36, August 14, 2015 (UTC)

Colors
what does everybody make of all of the different colors we've seen used for example Sai's haki has been shown to have a light blue aura where Zoro & Komei have purple evilish aura's and Doflamingo's seems to change at the end to purple but it is generally blackNibbler3100 (talk) 08:23, December 24, 2015 (UTC)

Black Lighting
"Black lightning" doesn't occur as a result of two bosu users of similar strength. It's called a clash of conquerer haki. It occurs between two who have access to conquerer haki. This is another tell, other than using conquerer haki to knock mooks out, who has conquerer haki in the New World.

This "Black Lighting" also occurred for Sai. Sai, Sabo, and Burgess are conquerer haki users.

You can quote the pages of Luffy's clashes as those pages actually call it the occurance a clash of conquerer haki.

There is no pages, no evidence chocking up the clash as something that happens between bosu users of similar strength. I challenge the person to claim so to provide clear evidence where it is STATED to simply be a clash between bosu users of similar strength.

Finally those "black lightning" aren't black at all. If you check the color pages they are as blue as Enel's lightning.

173.239.202.2 05:09, May 30, 2017 (UTC)Spunky

Haki vs Haki for logia users

 * Devil Fruit Users are capable of using Haki themselves. This allows them to resist lesser Haki-imbued attacks, yet it is still possible to pierce through their defense if the attack is stronger. For example, Akainu was able to take Haki-imbued attacks while maintaining his intangibility, assumably by extending his Haki through his body in order to nullify his opponents' bypass. However, he may have simply been morphing his body to avoid the attacks, as was the case with Charlotte Katakuri, predicting where the attacks would land with Kenbunshoku Haki.

I was wondering for a while, but can we still safely assume the Busoshoku Haki can be used by logia users to defend themselves from other haki attacks? We also admit in the text that they could just avoid their attacks. After all it seems a bit counter-intuitive that a power that "hardens" you is also the very thing that make you able to remain intangible, while on the other hand it's seems way easier to anticipate the attacks and respond accordingly. I don't even see why you need a kenbunshoku haki developed like Katakuri's to do so, when basically it's what "normal" kenbunshoku does with "normal" attacks. Even Monet could simply dodge haki-imbued effects without haki to achieve a similar results (ch. 687). The whole assumption is based on the marineford war when Kuzan (ch. 567) and Akainu(ch. 574) where hit by haki and survived (almost) unharmed. So I ask, do those references still hold today?

I think the problem is with the example. In Punk Hazard it was stated the BH allows to make contact with the Logia DF user but not negate the DF power. Even in Dressrosa, Doflamongo used BH against Gear Fourth Luffy and was surprised he was still rubbery. Basically, BH strengthen the user but does not weaken the target. Or maybe BH vs. BH cancel each other out.

So if Kuzan's BH was stronger then Whiteboard's, and if Sakazuki's BH was stronger then Vista's and Marco's it still make chance but this is just a speculation. Rhavkin (talk) 23:15, November 15, 2017 (UTC)
 * Rayleigh stopped Borsalino's kick (BH negate Logia intelligibility)
 * Zoro faces Pica and could cut him (stronger BH negate weaker BH)

I think that since it hasn't been clearly stated in the series that Logia Users can negate Haki with Haki, we should not assume that they can, but still consider the possibility. SynchroKingSharkDrake (talk) 01:36, November 16, 2017 (UTC)

Also, I think we should consider the possibility that Busoshoku Haki can be used for something other than Hardening, especially since it was specifically named as a technique, despite the wide usage. I like to think that Busoshoku Haki is responsible for some of the unexplained occurrences in battle (Luffy's Red Hawk fire addition, Zoro's Asura/Kyutoryu, Sanji's easy ignition after the timeskip, etc.). I know that it doesn't exactly pertain to the topic, but I'd like to share my theory. I think that since Busoshoku Haki makes your soul into armor, it might be possible to alter the properties of that armor. For example, making it easily ignited, or taking a special form. It's just a theory with next to no evidence to back it up. SynchroKingSharkDrake (talk) 02:31, November 16, 2017 (UTC)

Do not delete other people word, especially if you're commenting on them. Rhavkin (talk) 05:58, November 16, 2017 (UTC)

The fact that a stronger haki will prevale over a weaker one is a fact, the most notable example being the Zoro vs Pica fight. However that basically is the same as saying the "strongest material will breaker the weaker one". What I'm questioning is if that can be applied to the "negate intangibility" effect.


 * Pros to busoshoku
 * As Rhavkin pointed out, Luffy's gear fourth uses haki to harden him, but it still remain "rubbery". So something similar may apply to logia users.
 * Katakuri is forced to use kenbunshoku to avoid attacks because he is not intangible to begin with, so it's not the best example.


 * Pros to kenbunshoku
 * It seems to me more reasonable that the ability to "evade attacks" (= kenbunshoku) is the one used to evade attack, rather then the ability to hardener yourself (= busoshoku), which suggests more a power struggle like in the Zoro vs Pica fight. In any case, kenbunshoku can definetely be used by logia users to avoid attacks the same way non-logia users use it.
 * The Aokiji vs WB example is a bit problematic... I know that these are all speculations about power levels, but saying that he avoided an attack with busoshoku is the same as saying Aokiji had a stronger haki then WB, one of the four emperor. Ok that he wasn't in the best shape, but is that really plausible?

We don't know any of the admirals power and\or haki level, but we do know that they are one of the three great powers so the possibility of them matching a yonko isn't that far fetched.

The question is whether we should include the paragraph as is? I think its obvious (even if not specifically stated) that Kuzan and Sakazuki used some type of ability to not be harmed by haki embedded attacks. Is it a stronger haki? A logia ability? haki+logia? Awakening? Plot armor? Or maybe something else.

Until we know, I don't think that the paragraph can stay how it is now. And knowing this community, even if a clarification is given, someone will always say that there is no prove it happen before its revealed (see the non canon logia are special paramecia debates). Given that probable assumption, I suggest we discuss this case as if there will never be an explanation to how they did that, and focus on how to handle it with what we know now, and as I said above, that is not much. Rhavkin (talk) 12:01, November 16, 2017 (UTC)

There's no indication that a Logia using Haki allows them to maintain intangibility while being attacked with Haki attacks. Aokiji was very obviously morphing his body to avoid Whitebeard's attack, which the Hie Hie no Mi page even states: "It's also apparent that the user can control the ice in his body to mold it and change its shape, as seen when Kuzan formed a hole in his chest before Whitebeard stabbed through Kuzan with his bisento, allowing Kuzan to avoid contact with the Haki-infused weapon." Akainu was a more ambiguous example, but with the way Katakuri's powers have been portrayed it's now clear that he was doing the same thing. 13:01, November 16, 2017 (UTC)

The fact that it is written on another page doesn't make it true nor accurate. Rhavkin (talk) 14:38, November 16, 2017 (UTC)

However that's a problem because it creates a contradiction, since we give different meanings to the same fact.

If we agree on how to edit this page we'll edit the Hie Hie no Mi's as well. Rhavkin (talk) 17:01, November 16, 2017 (UTC)

Aokiji does the exact same thing Katakuri does. Katakuri explains how reshaping body allows one to avoid haki attacks. There's no alternative option given in the manga, this statement "Akainu was able to take Haki-imbued attacks while maintaining his intangibility, assumably by extending his Haki through his body in order to nullify his opponents' bypass" is speculation stemming from a lack of proper explanation at the time. 17:52, November 16, 2017 (UTC)

Removed the info Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 22:48, January 18, 2018 (UTC)

confusing part about devil fruits?
This type of Haki may not be equipped on attacks that are not from one's body except for weapons, or anything generated by one's Devil Fruit (like Kizaru's laser beams, Marco's flames or any other attacks based on Devil Fruits).

Is this sentence sying you can't put haki on anything generated by one's devil fruit, or you can? this seems confusing and would like to change it2600:1700:19A1:FE0:E5BE:875A:AAAD:EB63 10:48, March 6, 2018 (UTC)

Any attack from a DF user that is still attached to their body - for example, Kuzan making an ice fist and attacking - can use haki. However, so far we haven't seen any DF attack that separates from the user's body - such as Kuzan throwing an ice spear - that is able to use haki. As with everything to do with DFs and haki we aren't super clear on the details in every case.

17:17, March 6, 2018 (UTC)

Actually we have seen that, with Katakuri's donuts. 17:47, March 6, 2018 (UTC)

Sanji Has Hardening?
Sanji is listed as one of the hardening users. The reference provided for this statement is Judge confirming Sanji's usage of haki.

However, not all applications of armament haki are applications of hardening. There is no visual effect showing Sanji is using hardening as opposed to normal Haki (there were visual effects in all other cases). I don't watch the anime so I don't know how it was animated.

Sanji may have hardening, it may even be probable Sanji has hardening, however he hasn't displayed it on panel.

I propose Sanji's name be removed from confirmed hardening users until Sanji confirms he has hardening.

Emp3r0r.Lance (talk) 11:31, April 24, 2018 (UTC)

Advanced Applications
Regarding the advanced application of Busōshoku Haki that Luffy discusses in Chapter 937, isn't the first use of emission that we've seen Sentōmaru's Ashigara Dokkoi, which did not even have to connect to send Luffy flying? Even if we say that this could be explained simply as the force of the blow, wouldn't the shield that the three admirals used to defend the execution platform at Marineford be the same thing as what Rayleigh demonstrated? 58.89.146.212 14:25, March 21, 2019 (UTC)

Busōshoku Haki vs. Kenbunshoku Haki
The Busōshoku Haki subpage currently stages that it is by far the most common of the three types of Haki. While this may be true if you include non-canon characters, based on the most current information we have (including the Vivre Card information), there are 51 Busōshoku Haki users and 53 Kenbunshoku Haki users. It is true that the main reason why there are more Kenbunshoku Haki users is that so many of them come from Skypiea. Nonetheless, it is still no longer quite accurate to say that Busōshoku Haki is by far the most common type. Might we consider deleting that sentence? 58.89.146.212 00:31, April 7, 2019 (UTC)

Techniques
Should we really list any attack that uses Busoshoku? Rhavkin (talk) 13:45, April 12, 2019 (UTC)

While I did add some of the attacks, I would support removing them if the topic is ever brought up by admins or mods. The reason being that Busoshoku Haki is not an actual fighting style compared to Santoryu, Black Leg, or Rokushiki. It's basically used to harden the body or objects and used as a means to bypass a Devil Fruit user's defenses. The only attack I would suggest keeping is Busoshoku: Koka since it is the only attack used by multiple characters (mostly as a preamble to another attack). Vincent Dawn (talk) 17:26, April 19, 2019 (UTC)

Ryuo
Is the technique Hyogoro describes in Chapter 939 the same as what Koushirou mentioned in Chapter 194?--Rgilbert27 (talk) 14:11, April 12, 2019 (UTC)

I think there's no doubt they're talking about the same. 15:55, April 12, 2019 (UTC)

Then what the admirals used in Chapter 564 would pretty much be the same thing right?--Rgilbert27 (talk) 22:59, April 18, 2019 (UTC)

So is it Haki or just Busoshoku?--Rgilbert27 (talk) 06:38, April 20, 2019 (UTC)

It is clearly just Haki. SeaTerror (talk) 17:24, April 20, 2019 (UTC)

No Ryuo is the Wano name for Busoshoku. Busoshoku was the type of Haki that was the topic of conversation at the time. Plus, when Asura Doji saw Luffy use Haoshoku, he referred to it as Odens "ABILITY", not ryuo. I know armorment and conqurors are two different types of Haki, all 3 Haki types are born from the users spirit and will. (Evergone (talk) 20:36, April 20, 2019 (UTC))

If that's the case then Ryuo should be removed from the main Haki page (and the trivia about Ryuo moved to the Buso page) since the name refers to Buso and not Haki in general. Vincent Dawn (talk) 20:59, April 20, 2019 (UTC)

I don't know... I would keep Ryūō just in Haki-section, until it's confirmed that there are more than one term for Haki in Wano than Ryūō. --JouXIII (talk) 21:48, April 20, 2019 (UTC)

So is it Ryuo or Ryou?--Rgilbert27 (talk) 23:13, April 20, 2019 (UTC)

It is definitely Ryuo. U then O.(Evergone (talk) 23:17, April 20, 2019 (UTC))

I am more inclined to keep it on the Busoshoku Haki page for now. Everything Hyo's described relating to Haki has specifically been about Buso. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 01:03, April 21, 2019 (UTC)

That's what I've been saying. The topic of conversation at the time was Busoshoku. (Evergone (talk) 01:29, April 21, 2019 (UTC))

If that is the case going forward than we should remove Ryuo from the main Haki page, put in it on the Buso page, as well as move the one piece of trivia about it from the main Haki page to the Buso page. Vincent Dawn (talk) 02:01, April 21, 2019 (UTC)

The exact line was "This Haki you speak of must be what outsiders call it." not "this armament Haki". SeaTerror (talk) 03:18, April 21, 2019 (UTC)

The general term "Haki" is often used to refer to any of the specific Haki types. (Evergone (talk) 05:48, April 21, 2019 (UTC))

Well there you go then. SeaTerror (talk) 16:29, April 21, 2019 (UTC)

Hyo didn't recognize Luffy's Haoshoku Haki as Ryuo. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 16:42, April 21, 2019 (UTC)

So, have we come to an agreement? That Ryuo should be on the Busoshoku page. (Evergone (talk) 21:51, April 21, 2019 (UTC))

I think it should remain on the main Haki page for the time being. Most likely next chapter will continue the conversation about it and clarify the term's meaning. Hyo's description so far could apply to all three, and the kanji and translation for Ryuo don't provide any further clarification. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 22:21, April 21, 2019 (UTC)

Kaido pretty much just confirmed it's the general term. SeaTerror (talk) 00:38, April 22, 2019 (UTC)

Where did I confirm that? Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 00:47, April 22, 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm with Kaido King. At this point, is seems like you just don't want to admit you're wrong, SeaTerror. (Evergone (talk) 01:09, April 22, 2019 (UTC))

Sooooo, have we come to an agreement yet, because from what I'm reading, a majority of people are leaning for Busoshoku instead of Main Haki. (Evergone (talk) 02:00, April 23, 2019 (UTC))

Since they were only discussing Busoshoku, it would be speculative to say it is the Wano term for Haki in general. Keep it under Busoshoku for now. 04:43, April 23, 2019 (UTC)

So we are in agreement? I don't wanna change it if it's just going to be undone. Just so we're clear, we agree that Ryuo should be in Busoshoku, right? If you have a problem with that, voice it. Otherwise, I say we close this discussion and put Ryuo in Busoshoku. Any opposed? (Evergone (talk) 05:24, April 23, 2019 (UTC))

Ryuo should be in Busoshoku, if the manga or any other canon source says otherwise it's not that difficult to put it back in general. 11:47, April 23, 2019 (UTC)

So it's decided? We're going with Busoshoku, right? (Evergone (talk) 18:17, April 23, 2019 (UTC))

The admirals?--Rgilbert27 (talk) 19:03, April 23, 2019 (UTC)

What? Where did that come from? This discussion is about whether the Wano term 'Ryuo' is the name for Busoshoku are Haki in general. It's Busoshoku. (Evergone (talk) 19:22, April 23, 2019 (UTC))

April 18th, look it up.--Rgilbert27 (talk) 19:31, April 23, 2019 (UTC)

The quote from the manga already proved it isn't the term for busoshoku. SeaTerror (talk) 22:47, April 23, 2019 (UTC)

Okay, Rgilbert, I looked it up, I found nothing. SeaTerror, what quote? Just so you know, it seems a majority of people are leaning towards Busoshoku. (Evergone (talk) 23:32, April 23, 2019 (UTC))

Same talk page, same section Evergone.--Rgilbert27 (talk) 01:10, April 24, 2019 (UTC)

Rgilbert, found what you were talking about. The answer is no, it's not the same. In Wano, the consept is emitting the armorment a short distance without a medium. What the admirals did was simply armorment themselves to block the shockwave. Also, what does that have to do with this disscussion. This is about, whether Ryuo is the Wano name for Busoshoku or Haki in general. It's Busoshoku by the way. (Evergone (talk) 01:37, April 24, 2019 (UTC))

It was seen in Chapter 939 that Ryuo has been used before so whose to say that wasn't "Ryuo" being used?--Rgilbert27 (talk) 02:06, April 24, 2019 (UTC)

ST's main argument is based off an interpretation of a single phrase, as well as a misinterpretation of what Evergone said. When he said Haki can be used to refer to any of the three types, he meant the general term can specifically refer to one of the three types.

And I guess you could interpret Hyo's use of the word "Haki" instead of "Busoshoku Haki" in his phrase to refer to general Haki, but doing that would ignore the fact that: 1) Hyo has only recognized Buso Haki as Ryuo, even though Luffy has used all three types of Haki in front of him. 2) In his description of Haki, he specifically talks about Buso, unless you are somehow able to power up a sword with the other two types after all. So the interpretation that the phrase refers to general Haki doesn't hold up very well in context imo. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 03:18, April 24, 2019 (UTC)

I agree completely. So, are we in agreement yet? Do we agree that Ryuo should be in Busoshoku? (Evergone (talk) 03:57, April 24, 2019 (UTC))

Well? Do we agree that Ryuo should be be in Busoshoku or not? (Evergone (talk) 09:03, April 25, 2019 (UTC))

I looks like there's a majority for it so if nothing NEW is gonna be added to the discussion we can safely move it to Busoshoku. 10:28, April 25, 2019 (UTC)

Okay then! If that's the case how about the deadline be midnight, this Saturday. If no New argument is made before that point, then Ryuo is moved to Busoshoku, Permanently. Does that sound fair? (Evergone (talk) 22:41, April 25, 2019 (UTC))

"then Ryuo is moved to Busoshoku, Permanently." That's now how it works. Anything can be rediscussed on this wiki. Anyway Kaido said what my argument about the quote was. That's what was in the manga therefore any other interpretation is wrong since it wasn't literally said to be Busoshoku. SeaTerror (talk) 09:47, April 26, 2019 (UTC)

Fine, whatever! Can we please just conclude this argument so we can put Ryuo in Busoshoku already?(Evergone (talk) 20:59, April 26, 2019 (UTC))

Can we also confirm whether it's called Ryuo or Ryou?--Rgilbert27 (talk) 00:14, April 27, 2019 (UTC)


 * I don't understand why you still have an issue with this? What makes you think it's Ryou? Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 00:34, April 27, 2019 (UTC)

Someone misspelled it when that chapter page was made which led to confusion, so is it Ryuo or Ryou?Rgilbert27 (talk) 00:48, April 27, 2019 (UTC)

The Japanese is right there. Even if you can't read it, you can figure it out pretty quick on Google Translate. The first kanji is read Ryū, the second one is read ō, thus Ryuo. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 00:53, April 27, 2019 (UTC)

So we agree it's not Ryou?--Rgilbert27 (talk) 00:57, April 27, 2019 (UTC)

It is definitely spelled R-Y-U-O, Ryuo. Now back to the main disscussion. Do we agree that Ryuo should be in Busoshoku? (Evergone (talk) 01:08, April 27, 2019 (UTC))

Part of the discussion is spelling and previous use, so admirals?Rgilbert27 (talk) 01:28, April 27, 2019 (UTC)

There is a majority for Busoshoku only so that's what it is until confirmed otherwise. Personally, i think it only reference the advance tech and not the concept of Busoshoku Haki as a whole.

Rg, Kaido literally spelled it out to you, how much of a clarification do you need? And users should be a factor because then it will rise speculation such as "Garp's Fist of Love isn't black so it is advanced Busoshoku". It is a thing and some characters have it. there is no need for a list, and for any character that might used it' there's need to be a discussion on their talk pages. Rhavkin (talk) 02:17, April 27, 2019 (UTC)

The admirals thing has already been answered. Read through the responses, you'll find it. Regarding Ryuo, it's clear the majority wants Ryuo to be in Busoshoku, and those in favor of Busoshoku have made superior arguments. I believe it's time to end this disscussion and move Ryuo to Busoshoku. Who's with me? (Evergone (talk) 06:32, April 27, 2019 (UTC))

Talk has run its course. Closing in favor of Buso. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 13:06, April 27, 2019 (UTC)

Admirals in chap 564
The fact that the admirals were seen using a Busoshoku technique without contact in April 18th's message shows they're Haki is advance too.Rgilbert27 (talk) 14:41, April 27, 2019 (UTC)

So you're not dropping this, fine.


 * 1) They were not confirmed to use Haki of any kind, it could be their DF, another technique, either Haki related or otherwise.
 * 2) Seeing as Sentomaru use it beforehand, and the same visual que was used (a circle around the impact area) with both Rayleigh, and Hyogoro, while not with them is a prove against they using it.
 * 3) When used by confirmed users (Sentomaru, Rayleigh, and Hyogoro) the power is described as a "wall" while whatever the admiral used is dome shape.
 * This also means that the ripple effect needs to be considered. The admirals protected an area, while the structure behind them still suffered the hit, while when used by confirmed users the damage is completely blocked.

Rhavkin (talk) 15:07, April 27, 2019 (UTC)

They didn't emit the Haki. They used Haki to strengthen their own bodies and withstand the shockwave. It's the same melee Haki we have come to know before Wano. (Evergone (talk) 20:23, April 27, 2019 (UTC))

So you would agree Rhavkin on an effect, that would show how powerful by not just themselves but together that haki would be when done as a group.Rgilbert27 (talk) 23:46, April 27, 2019 (UTC)

Rad number 1. Rhavkin (talk) 06:35, April 28, 2019 (UTC)

Hardening
This reddit post makes a good case for hardening being a Luffy only term. Checking YouTube and the manga the black one is simply referred to as Buso by everyone else.

Guest Totem (talk) 12:24, July 1, 2019 (UTC)Guest Totem

Busoshoku Advanced users
Shouldn't Marigold be added in there as well? The way she deflected Luffy's attack in chapter 519 was exactly like how Sentomaru did it. - Gorenja (talk) 01:21, September 22, 2019 (UTC)

Kid's Busoshoku Haki non-canon in Stampede Movie
according to the Stampede's trivia, it claims that Kid uses Busoshoku haki, should we include that in the non-canon users section? Kunoichi101 (talk) 03:55, May 24, 2020 (UTC)

https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/One_Piece%3A_Stampede#Trivia unless it is confirmed, this topic will be here Kunoichi101 (talk) 09:39, August 3, 2020 (UTC)

Katakuri's Edged Mochi
Should Katakuri's Kaku Mochi/Edged Mochi be mentioned as using an advanced form of Hardening? When he first uses it, after Luffy punches his hand with Hardening active, Luffy screams out in pain with his hand swelling up, and Katakuri says this: "There are even levels to the Color of Armament!!" That seems to outright state that Katakuri's Edged Mochi is him using an advanced form of the Hardening technique, separate from the Emission and Internal Destruction types Luffy learns on Wano.

The only reason I can think of to not add this version is that we know almost nothing about it. Katakuri is the sole known user, and the square shape to his hands and arms might be the visual indicator of this technique or it might be unique to the Mochi Mochi Fruit. We also don't have an official name for it, and no explanation for how it works. That said, it does seem to be an advanced form of Hardening, and Oda is notorious for setting things up way in advance, so I'd be surprised if it doesn't come back in the future. 68.231.144.96 11:31, August 23, 2020 (UTC)

Use of Emission in 1035
According to the wiki:

"Sufficiently skilled users of Busoshoku Haki are capable of letting the power flow out from a part of their body (usually their hand) and unleash a small invisible burst which will knock back anything in their body part's immediate vicinity with the force of a very powerful punch."

Isn't that literally what Zoro did? King tried to take his swords, then Zoro created a forcefield/blast between them, forcing King back without so much as swinging his swords (he's in same stance), further emphasized by light behind King and black lightning in-between them (used in conjunction with Conquerors imbuing, just like Big Mom).

Why is it edited out as "projectile attack"? There's nothing projectile-like about it.

Shannyoi (talk) 16:02, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

While I certainly think it's possible, perhaps even likely, that Haki emission was used, I don't think it's indisputable just from that lone visual - those impact lines are not really proof of an advanced Haki clash. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 17:41, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, the edit message was directed at the bulk of the edit/removal, not for Zoro. However, he was removed because the instance lacked the characteristic burst of emission. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 18:23, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

I was talking to KingCannon about whether or not Zoro used advanced Busoshoku Haki. And in that discussion, I mentioned that when his swords were locked in King's swordbreaker, which snatched his swords the last time the two met when Zoro was healed using that hyper-regeneration medicine. And at that time, Zoro was closer to full strength and health compared to Chapter 1035.

But, before King could snatch them again, he looked on surprised and looked to see all three swords freed, and Zoro was sent backwards. Except for the black lightning, Zoro was still holding all his swords in the same position as when he and King clashed. In most situations, if you snatch your swords back, then they'd be positioned behind you.

That pose also resembles all the poses that all advanced Busoshoku Haki users have done. Zoro using it would be the sole reason for him to be sent backwards like that, because him and King were right in front of each other before, then he was further from him.

It wouldn't be surprising since Haki grows stronger the stronger your foe is, and Zoro has been going all out using Haki, picking up advanced Haoshoku Haki infusion. Busoshoku Haki is his main area of expertise, and Luffy had picked up future sight during his fight with Katakuri. DevilSlayer123 (talk) 00:24, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

As stated before, the visuals alone cannot state anything for sure. There are times when Oda does some wonky art and draws something that's not very clearly conveyed.

For starters, the visuals are completely different from when Rayleigh, Sentomaru or Hyogoro used the technique. And like I mentioned in the prior conversation, black spark effects tend to be present in Busoshoku clashes. There's simply not enough evidence for advanced Busoshoku usage. It could've been simply Zoro hardening his swords to overpower King and pull them back to his side.

Also, neither Zoro nor King mention that advanced Haki was employed, so there's no way to confirm what happened beyond the art. In other cases, we've seen characters directly point out that advanced CoA was used.KingCannon (talk) 02:54, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Rayleigh, Sentomaru, and Hyogoro all emits Haki from their palms, not from any weapon. Just look at the time where Roger and Whitebeard clashed using both of their advanced Busoshoku Haki (and Haoshoku Haki) on their weapons, instead of their palms, which was different from the other visuals.

I didn't mention the black lightning as being evidence, because I knew already that it happens sometimes. And, the Haoshoku Haki is instead an overflowing of black lightning flowing out before the impact.

No one mentioned that they could use advanced Busoshoku Haki, the first time it was used until Hyogoro mentions it to Luffy. It was kinda obvious that it have been used all those times, because no one was hit using a direct blow.

It was established before that someone with the weaker Busoshoku Haki would end up taking the damage in the end, not being pushed back. And it was shown that a hardened weapon would end up being broken if it were overpowered from someone's superior Haki, and it never resulted in one person being pushed back (until the person was directly hit).

I also mentioned before that Zoro's swords weren't clashing against King's Haki and was instead trapped inside his swordbreaker, which he couldn't remove them from when he was at top strength. His hands were still in front of him when he took them back from King's swordbreaker, which would've be held in a different way if he did removed them. DevilSlayer123 (talk) 04:33, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

The whole problem is that you're basing your argument in the positioning of limbs, as if it was a major detail. Also, we haven't seen how Advanced CoA looks like with a weapon, so you can't just claim that the chapter depicted it. It could very well be similar to how Hyogoro or Sentoumaru do it.

We also can't compare this to Roger vs. Whitebeard because a) we know Roger and Whitebeard both had advanced CoC, which was hinted to be the reason they couldn't touch each other, b) Luffy only started to emulate the non-touching bursts when he started using advanced CoC himself and c) we had Oden right there stating that their weapons weren't touching at all, thus giving us confirmation~when Law pointed out the same thing during Luffy vs. Kaido.

In conclusion, the evidence is still lacking and non-conclusive. You need way more to confirm anything, especially with a mechanic like Haki that's still not very elaborated upon and sometimes inconsistent.KingCannon (talk) 13:36, 25 December 2021 (UTC)