Talk:Vergo

abilities and power
hi. about welgo's power, what we've seen in this chapter (672) isn't a new or strange or unique "ability to quickly change the density of an object into something much harder", but is simply the Busoshoku Haki, nothing more :)

_a.p.

Enchanting tale old chap. Except you're wrong.

As long as it isn't said what it is it's just an unnamed ability.

10:34, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

Pics or it didn't happen. SeaTerror 10:50, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

As far we know, Busoshoku Haki has that effect only on Luffy, due to the vulcanization of the rubber, so it's unlike in my opinion that's an Haki effect too, but since we don't know let's say it's just an unnamed ability.

? maybe i don't remember well, but i think that the 'vulcanization theory' of Gomu gomu + haki that we have is not actually confirmed in the manga. and i definitely can't see how some of you can say that Welgo's ability change the material of his weapon, when the only confirmed thing is that it becames 'black' and harder :) . a.p. 151.76.176.1 13:09, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

It isn't Haki. Haki only effects the body itself and not objects. SeaTerror 10:57, June 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * The Kuja and Shanks, as well as Rayleigh explicitly saying Haki can be imbued into weapons suggests otherwise. Zodiaque 11:05, June 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * That's just imbuing them with extra power though, not changing it into another material entirely. Haki isn't alchemy. 11:29, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

While I will admit that Haki was my first impression as well, it's better to wait and see since we don't know if the koka ability can only be used by Luffy due to his rubber body. 16:17, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

I am thinking he could possibly be able to turn objects and himself into a metal of some kind. 09:47, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

I'm thinking something like the poster above me, but I would alternatively suggest that perhaps his power might be more closely related to changing the density of objects, in that by changing the density of the air in Law's lungs (or other fluids in his body, perhaps) he could weaken him and make him gasp for breath as was shown, without any visible explanation. Albeit, there are two provisos to be added here, first, this wouldn't explain the change in color of the bamboo, although it could definitely explain its increase in destructive capcity via the material being more dense, and second, this power might be viewed as broken (overly powered) and thus not feasible. What do you guys think? 165.123.211.133 01:52, July 3, 2012 (UTC)

When you say law coughs up blood in the page, where is the proof? it's like assuming what's around Vergo's weapon was blood. It's asphalt, a black, sticky and viscous substance which explains how 1/he hardened his weapon, 2/ the black bits falling from his weapon when he hit law, 3/ the black liquid that seems like blood falling from law's head. And btw, luffy turns black because of vulcanisation, you can't expect oda to explain everything41.250.218.37 10:40, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Phrasing of Abilities and Powers
Yes, we know that the his ability is currently speculative. But what I think is that this phrase is also rather speculative and doesn't belong on the page:

"So far, he has been seen using an ability similar to Luffy's Busoshoku: Koka in which he can harden his body parts, though, whether this is the result of haki or some other ability is yet to be known."

I feel like noting the similarity makes the editing easier, as then random AWCs don't feel the need to add in that it's definitely Haki. BUT I think having the relationship on there is noting a similarity that may not be correct. 00:10, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

I am getting a little irritated with this. The entire fanbase agrees that this is haki. It looks like haki. It hits like haki. VAs can use haki. How is it not haki? Regardless, I'm not arguing that it is haki. The argument is purely regarding the similarity. The similarity exists and there is too much evidence to suggest that it is haki.

Therefore, I added that line, which notes the excessive similarity to Luffy's haki move (which this wiki makes it sound like Luffy invented haki hardening but that's for another discussion). It is not speculation, it is observation. If you disagree, then please get Oda to make some rush edits for the next volume. Nexus32 (talk) 02:31, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

I beg to differ. If you look at the above section, when someone speculated the same thing, most of the users following that do not think that. So the entire fanbase is wrong.

No matter how do you look at that, that is a speculation. The next sentence only make even more speculation-soundy like. 02:37, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * You keep saying it is speculation but you're not saying what exactly is speculative of that line. Nexus32 (talk) 02:39, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * "whether this is the result of haki or some other ability is yet to be known." Yup, sounding VERY speculative-thingy to me~ 03:15, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yup, Jade mentioned the exact phrase I would have. Also, see this. Mentioning the similarities between the two ideas creates the idea that Vergo's power is Haki. And this whole wikia doesn't give a damn what the fans think, until an official source states it's Haki, we can't even hint that it is on our pages. 03:34, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * "So far, he has been seen using an ability" - fact
 * "similar to Luffy's Busoshoku: Koka in which he can harden his body parts" - fact
 * "whether this is the result of haki or some other ability is yet to be known" - fact


 * I question whether the two of you know what speculation is. Luffy's Busoshoku: Koka description says his ability is very similar to vulcanized rubber but that has not been confirmed yet. Apoo's ability is said to be a DF but that has not been confirmed. This is not speculation but the attack imposed here lacks large inconsistency and misunderstanding of the documentation on this wiki. Vergo's ability is similar to Luffy's haki hardening, that's end of discussion. If you can prove (which you won't) that it is not similar to Luffy's haki hardening, then I'd like to see your evidence. However, right now, both of your arguments are not:
 * 1) Not being specific on your point: you say it's speculative but after repeatedly questioning you, there has been no specific answer as to what is speculative and no efforts have been made to fix the line
 * 2) Not addressing the problem: which is the large similarity between both attacks that has not been documented


 * If this is not going to specifically be addressed like adults, I'll simply revert the change.
 * Nexus32 (talk) 21:17, October 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with Nexus, I don't think it's wrong to say that it resembles Luffy's haki (it helps to provide an image of what is going on). As long as we don't state that this hardening is haki, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. 22:22, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

Possible Aid?
is it just me or this guy might help the straw hats? 94.156.160.107 11:52, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

For once I agree with an AWC 09:46, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

I don't see anything that Welgo has done or said that would suggest that he would help them.79.136.16.219 14:08, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

Yeaaah, now I'm definitely positive he won't help them in any way whatsoever.81.170.200.236 11:46, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Object on the face
I think it is obvious it is a bandage. Just like the coat, it is striped but not to his whole. We should name it as it is, a bandage. LordRayleigh 11:55, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

From a distance it does, however up close (as can be seen above and behind Welgo in the image) it more resembles half eaten meat. There isn't even anything connecting it to his face like a regular bandage would. 12:17, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

I first though it was a half-eaten steak but it could look like a steak because it has crossed stripes. That would make more sense to be just some eccentric clothing style - a part striped and another blank - like Inazuma's own eccentric clothing style, and not in plus a man with a steak on his face. I just see the stripes as a style of Wengo printed on part of his wearing - the unknown object and the coat are both stripes and not to their whole. Thus the object would be a sticky bandage and not a sticky half-eaten steak. By the way, there isn't any of bite to me on the object : we don't see toothprint. Plus, if it's a steak, it means he removed part of the half-eaten steak's stripes because a steak would have to be fully striped. That would necessarily requite devil fruit powers to whiten a steak.LordRayleigh 12:54, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

i don't really want to butt in out of no where but that guy suffers from the old joke of food on the face just that is sligtly exagerated so he has a steak on his face men we know is food come on!

To be honest, to me it looks like meat too FirePit 14:11, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you all that it is some kind of meat but until Oda confirms it to be whatever it is, we should just call it a patch of some kind for now.79.136.16.219 14:19, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

Looks like a chicken breast... Cheese Lord 14:25, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

someone edit it, it is grilled steak

As we expected, it is meat, hamburger in this case.81.170.200.236 11:48, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Welgo or Wengo?
I see that some people called him "Vengo". Does it matter?76.97.147.177 14:50, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

Name
I think Velgo is better than Welgo for his name. If Welgo we have to pronounce his name in German. --Klobis 13:17, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

Mangastream used Virgo, wouldn't it be a plausible romanization?

I agree with sff9,i think the mangastream translations can be trusted more then mangareaders,therefore we should think that welgo is actually a romanization for the name virgo. User:X-RAPTOR 14:31, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

Virgo is ヴァルゴ. He is ヴェルゴ. --Klobis 15:39, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

I should be changed to Virgo since mangastream is usually more accurate. 98.164.70.25 16:09, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with Klobis on this one. Velgo, from the information we have, seems to make more sense, though my gut is telling me Virgo. 16:13, June 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * Virgo is actually a girl's name, so it's not logical seeing that he is a male. 15:23, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

So Velgo it is, for now at least.


 * Just my two cents: If it would be pronounced German, it's the company's name WERGO - it's written the same way as transliteration as this character.
 * But the name ヴェルゴ could also be written - and that would actually fit to what we see him doing to Law - as Vergo. vergo is the Latin word for bend.
 * Nevermind though - let's keep it this way until Oda gives us something official. Maybe he's gonna troll us all next chapter ... ^^ -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 13:22, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

Just found this little gem: Stephen, the official translator for Shonen Jump Alpha has confirmed that his name is, in fact Vergo, based on an advance copy of Chapter 673 he received. Feel free to wait until the chapter comes out to transfer it if you want, but it appears we're getting an official confirmation this week. Zodiaque 11:35, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Confirmed for Vergo http://images.4chan.org/a/src/1341390012334.png 67.183.53.142 08:22, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Haki?
Isn't his attack on law with the bamboo stick just him using Busoshoku haki. It seems very similar to how Luffy using Busoshoku haki is drawn and seems to have the same effect, making the bamboo stick harder.Skippidy-Bops 16:22, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you. Though I definitely think he has a DF power, his attack with the pole was a haki attack IMO. If you take into account that all vice admirals have haki. The whole thing with luffy's rubber turning black is a bit up in the air, and the whole 'vulcanisation' issue seems to originate more from fan speculation than facts indicated by oda. The anime hasn't shown luffy turning black for any of his gear second moves. If you look closely in the fight between law and vice admiral smoker he shoots out smoke with black coloured fists at one point, this could just be the way in which Oda is telling us that haki is being used. I think we will see Vergo sporting some kind of power that has something to do with that patty stuck to his cheeck. In the flash back where the citizen remembers Vergo's face you can also see what looks like chips stuck to his face, or it might just be one of those crazy One Piece personality quirks. Only time will tell.

straining?
in the conversation with Law, he said that If Law had killed him, Law would have died, as well as mockingly "Did you think he didn't know?" saying that adults will allways find law's secrets and so forth. The implication I got wasn't that Welgo was causing the strain, but that Law had been poisoned by Caesar instead. The fact that Caesar knew Law had turned on the Yeti Cool brothers, and didn't seem to care, also supports this. In which case, the strain by presence thing is just a misconception.13th madman 13:21, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

You misinterpreted. Velgo said that if Law tried to take action against him, he would be dead already. By that he meant if Law had somehow attacked him then and there. 19:12, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

Can't really argue with that. But it still feels like Caesar's doing not Velgo's13th madman 20:54, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

Caesar's poison gas works instantly so it couldn't have been him, Law didn't even encounter him when he sneaked around FirePit 00:25, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

In my honest opinion, Velgo's power probably isn't haki, because really, Silvers Rayleigh is EXTREMELY POWERFUL and Law wasn't even knocked down with Rayleigh's haki, and that was two years ago, imagine how powerful Law is now, it'd not really make sense with Velgo being able to use haki to bring Law down to his knees, it may be some devil fruit power perhaps21:13, July 2, 2012 (UTC)Thisishabushness

And people were calling me an idiot for saying he was part of the Marines, oh and look here he's a vice admiral. 10:06, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

who put him in the polearm wielders? a flute isnt a polearm, it is a musical instrumentAntonisgabrielides 10:59, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Marine talking with Momonga
A possible Vergo 2 years ago at Impel Down with Momonga : http://images.4chan.org/a/src/1341397250725.jpg

86.74.0.93 18:32, July 4, 2012 (UTC) Doflamingo

This is the picture you're looking for, but the theory's been shot down on the basis that Ch 673 showed him 3 years ago with his distinctive facial hair, which the Marine two years ago doesn't have. Zodiaque 18:42, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

That was the same exact image. SeaTerror 20:46, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Wait...
I thought that Vergo was Doflamingo? He's actually his subordinate?Black Ronin8 (talk) 08:25, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Yes. They are entirely different people. 08:28, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Vergo's full name
Is "Kichiku" an epithet or his actual name? Reason I ask is because 1) I looked at mangastream's title (Marine Base Captain of G5 'Kichiku Vergo') for the chapter and it seemed really convincing for a first name so I went ahead and changed it and 2) upon looking at Chapter 680 on wikia, it is translated to "Demon Bamboo".

If it's not his first name, go ahead and revert the edits and apologies in advance for doing so. Nexus32 (talk) 21:03, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

"Kichiku" is a Japanese word meaning something like "brute." The title of the most recent chapter is "Kichiku no Vergo," or "Vergo the Brute." Kichiku is not part of his name and will not be anything more than an epithet at best.

Tekkai User?
Everyone seems to creating these theories about Vergo having some "density controlling" power, but wouldn’t a much simpler explanation be that he knows how to use tekkai? I mean he has already shown the ability to use shigan so we know he has access to rokushiki techniques. And in the latest chapter Sanji comments that Vergo's a "Mass of Iron". That’s literally what "Tekkai" translates into. He's even blocked swords and kicks the same way other tekkai users have in the past. How he hardened his bamboo stick may still be up for debate, but him hardeneing his body seems to have already been explained.

72.196.196.54 19:13, September 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * He already used "shigan" so it's probable, but it may be a part of his abilities (a fruit or something). Khaliszt (talk) 19:17, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Sanji is speculating about Vergo's ability, so until we hear it form Vergo's mouth, we don't know what it is. Sanji is only noting the similarity between Vergo's technique and Tekkai based on his own fighting experience. Tekkai is likely, but unconfirmed. 19:25, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

His epithet has to do with bamboo, which if you've never seen can be incredibly hard, almost as hard as iron. Play the waiting game and we'll learn what his abilities entail. That stuff is always explained during fights like this. 20:44, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

It's Tekkai c'mon.. And a katana(Tashigi's) can easily cut a bamboo, right.?

No, it's not. His epithet and hardening ability (the stick from his first appearance) should more than explain how it's not undoubtedly tekkai. 15:27, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

Armament Haki deflects blows and negates Devil Fruit abilities. It does not make one take less damage from a blow that connects. That is Tekkai, i.e. "iron mass", which is what Sanji describes it as. Vergo is shown to display other forms of Rokushiki. Just because it didn't come out of Vergo's mouth doesn't change the fact that the evidence is clear as day that it's what's at play. The Pope 05:16, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Where are you even getting the idea that Armament can only deflect blows? Have you not seen the blackening type of haki? 02:52, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot a third category: empowering attacks.

And yes, I know that you may be thinking of when he coated his entire body black to stop Law, but when he was fighting Sanji, none of his body turned black. As such, he wasn't using that ability of Haki.

This is the exact same crap that went down when Drip claimed Caribou's ability was a Logia, and he said "So what if I am", and everyone cried "He didn't actually admit it, so it can't be true!!!1!!". There's assumptions, and then there's looking at the facts and using deductive reasoning. There's far more evidence that it is Tekkai than there is that it isn't.The Pope 05:45, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Vergo NEVER used Tekkai so please stop adding him to the "Tekkai Users" list 08:31, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

Are you just blind? Or are you not able to read? We've gone over in detail as to why it was Tekkai. His body withstands an attack without taking damage without him entering his full-body Haki state. Sanji calls it Tekkai. He uses the rest of Rokushiki. It's Tekkai. The Pope 15:39, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

Vergo uses both tekkai and haki.

Levi is right, he is proficent with both techniques.  ☆ Wonder-kun ☆   (◣ ◢)    15:59, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

Precisely. The Pope 16:28, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

Sanji never call it Tekkai. --Klobis (talk) 13:36, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

Indeed he didn't, but that doesn't neccessarily mean that it isn't Tekkai, right?  ☆ Wonder-kun ☆   (◣ ◢)    14:01, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

No one mentioned him using tekkai, so it's only speculation. Just leave it.

Sanji said "it's that steel-like strengthening thing again" (ch. 681). Now question: which technique we saw harden the body like steel and, more importantly, that Sanji saw again? Add to it that Vergo is a Vice Admiral and used other rokushiki techniques... you don't have to ask Oda to figure out the answer. There is no room for any other answers, so it's not speculative at all. Saying otherwise is running wild with imagination in my opinion.

Agreed.  ☆ Wonder-kun ☆   (◣ ◢)    16:12, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

Sanji did not say "again". --Klobis (talk) 03:48, March 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * That's aside the point. He refers to Vergo's ability as an "iron mass". That's the literal translation of "Tekkai", in case you haven't been taking notes. And as stated above, seeing how Sanji's fought Tekkai users, it's obvious he knows what he's talking about, in addition to Vergo showcasing almost every other Rokushiki ability. As I said above, there's assuming and then there's deducing. Deducing from given facts is not making an assumption; it's just using your brain. And for your notion that it's Haki, I already disproved that, so stop trying to use it as a sticking point. The Pope 06:19, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

You didn't disprove anything. It is flat out Haki. SeaTerror (talk) 07:31, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

@The Pope: be less provocative when replying, please.

The only time Haki has ever been used to decrease damage from an attack was when Vergo coated his entire body in it. Every other instance it is used to deflect blows, not to decrease damage. When a Tekkai user enables Tekkai, they get back up from attacks as if nothing happened, which is exactly what happened, followed by Sanji calling it Tekkai. It's Tekkai. The Pope 13:44, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

in 680 vergo blocks tashigi's sword with haki. tekkai can't be used while moving so vergo could not use it while being kicked by sanji. 16:42, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

It can't be tekkai because tekkai affects the user's whole body, hence the name iron mass and not iron piece. Also, the user cannot move while using tekkai, Jabra being the sole exception; that's not to say the user cannot be moved by something else, but they themselves cannot move. Ergo, Vergo cannot hit Sanji or move to block when using tekkai. 18:12, March 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * That would assume that a Tekkai-user has to be constantly using Tekkai, which we know is not the case. When Vergo was struck by Sanji, he enabled Tekkai. It's not that hard to figure out. As for him blocking Tashigi's attack, kindly look at his arm. What color is it? It's black. Look at Vergo when Sanji hits him. Is his body black? I think not. Any other attempts at counter-evidence before we call this a close? The Pope 19:52, March 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * I also say it's Tekkai, but since it doesn't really seem like any parts can come down to an agreement, the only fair soultion for this is a voting (in my opinion). 19:58, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

You usually take a vote on an opinion; you don't take a vote on whether something is a fact or not. Fact of the matter is, every evidence of it not being Tekkai so far has been disproven.The Pope 14:26, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Other people don't believe you or what you've said. You cannot say what is fact and what isn't. I don't care if it's tekkai or not, but I do know you can't declare facts like this. It should go to a poll. 14:44, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

@The Pope: I also think it is Tekkai, but since there's just as many users who doesn't think it is Tekkai, the only fair solution is a voting-poll, as me and JSD has already pointed out... WU out - 15:11, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

JSD, I'm not just saying "IT'S FACT" without conclusive evidence. We've provided clear evidence as to why it's Tekkai, and all evidence on the contrary has been debunked. That is how you can say something is a fact; when you can actually back it up. The Pope 16:35, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

There are still users who don't think it's Tekkai anyway. And since there's nothing to do about other people's opinions, therefore I think a poll is the right solution. 16:57, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Nobody ever stated he can use tekkai,so what you call "facts" are just assumptions.-- 17:20, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Community decides... I still think it's tekkai though. 17:42, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

I love how you keep saying everything saying it isn't Tekkai has been debunked yet it actually has not. You're now lying and I really have no idea why. SeaTerror (talk) 19:36, March 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay. Provide a reason you think it's not Tekkai without using a fact that's already been debunked. The Pope 21:53, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

You haven't debunked anything. Quit saying the same damn lie over and over again. It is nothing but annoying. SeaTerror (talk) 21:59, March 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * If you would actually read, you would see that I have. And you still haven't provided any proof. The Pope 22:09, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

My guess is that the only way to settle this is to provide a bullet-point list of each piece of evidence and from there discern whether or not they're valid for judging that it's Tekkai or not Tekkai. The Pope 06:42, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

No one ever stated Vergo is a tekkai user.That's enough. 13:34, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Uh, Sanji did. The Pope 13:36, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

He didn't 13:43, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Chapter 681. Page 16. Look it up. The Pope 13:47, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Sanji never said Vergo was using tekkai. 13:49, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

You do know that "Tekkai" translates to "iron mass", right? The Pope 13:50, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Captain Obvious.-- 13:52, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

So if "iron mass" means "Tekkai", and Sanji called Vergo an "iron mass"...? The Pope 13:54, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

That can't prove he is a tekkai user. 13:56, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Could also be referred to his Busoshoku Haki protection so that doesn't change anything. Vergo is famous for his strong Busoshoku Haki as stated by Doflamingo.

Btw. Mangarule translated it as "This guy is like a mass of iron or something.", stop referring to mangapanda.

"If Vergo looked like he used Tekkai and Sanji called it Tekkai that doesn't mean it's Tekkai!"

Ugh, good god you're dense. Now we're going in circles. This is the same thing that happened when Drip called Caribou's ability a Logia and he said "So what if I am" and everyone said "HE DIDN'T SAY IT SO IT CAN'T BE TRUE!1!!!1!". It doesn't have to come out of the user's mouth; there's a magical thing called using your eyes. Not to mention actually giving Sanji a little benefit of the doubt, seeing how he's fought Tekkai-users and he knows what he's talking about.

As for whether it was Haki, again, refer to my previous statement. Haki is used to deflect blows, unless he coats his body in it a la his fight with Law, or coating his arm to deflect Tashigi's attack. When Sanji attacks him, his body is not covered in Haki, meaning that if he was using Haki, he would've been deflecting the attack, and since he wasn't using Haki, his getting back up without being damaged had nothing to do with Haki, hence Sanji's observation that it's Tekkai, yet another ability of Rokushiki, which Vergo has already shown to be adept at.

God I hate repeating myself. The Pope 14:03, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

To better explain myself, I think he used tekkai when Sanji hit him with his "flange strike". Vergo was still, so he could have perfectly used tekkai. I don't know if he used it other times or if he can use it while moving (btw, Jabura was the only one who could use tekkai while moving IN THE CP9), I'm talking only about that time. And indeed Sanji remarked it, if that was simply haki Sanji would have said something about haki... he uses it himself and he can recognize it after all. Vergo probably used haki through all the fight, but he used tekkai at least that time.


 * Also Pope and the others, try don't flame up the discussion please.


 * I agree with Levi on all cases. Also thanks for adding the poll JSD, since it doesn't seem like any of the parts will come to an agreement. And also I second Levi's satement, try not to flame up the discussion here. WU out -  15:12, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Sanji used an attack with a flaming leg against Vergo, Tekkai would not have blocked the flames. That's how he beat Jabura. 15:20, March 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * 1. It wasn't particular strong; 2. since when haki can block flames?

Mhhmmmm, you've got a point there... I still think it's Tekkai though XD WU out -  15:25, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

In response to the below...

What, Sanji isn't an official source? The manga itself isn't an official source? The Pope 00:05, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

Confirmed troll... 6/10.

Completely ignoring an entire page of discussion as well as shrugging off what visually occurs in the manga.

I wonder who the troll is. The Pope 04:39, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

Poll Discussion
Seriously? You guys are making me take time off my spring break to make a poll here? Why couldn't someone else make it days ago when it was first suggested? When things are deadlocked, and people want the poll, someone should make the poll.

I'm making a two option poll, since it can't be confirmed as Haki either (there's no statement or anything that leads to a Haki conclusion like there is with Tekkai), so the options are 1) Tekkai 2) Not Tekkai. The test poll is below. Voice your objections with the poll format in this section, don't argue about the actual topic. 14:58, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

I'm actually against making a poll, polls should not be used for "confirming something" if possible. I don't think we asked to make one in the discussion... or we did?

I know I and at least one other user did. And while I agree that polls aren't a great way to "confirm" something, with the two sides of this argument deadlocked about whether or not it can be confirmed based on what we've seen, a poll seems like the only way to settle it. 15:13, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

I were the other person who suggested a poll... WU out -  15:16, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

I'm against this poll.We should not allow speculations in his wiki. 18:53, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

"Speculation" would imply that there isn't evidence to support a claim as fact. The Pope 19:01, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

No evidence. 19:38, March 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Then you're either incapable of reading or in denial. The Pope 20:00, March 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * So I'm incapable of reading?Good. 20:15, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

I'm against the poll only because there's no Haki option. SeaTerror (talk) 19:49, March 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Why there should be one? If it was haki, he is just an haki user and not a tekkai one, but we know for sure that he can use haki... the problem is the tekkai.

Not my idea of not including ... Ask JSD. 19:57, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Guess this means I can start a poll about whether or not Luffy likes the color blue. This is a pure speculative poll, and therefore should not exist. 20:52, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

There's pretty much just The Pope who thinks he uses Tekkai for reading mangapanda... so...


 * I also think it was tekkai, and I saw other comments who think the same. And that was clear in mangastream translation, not mangapanda.

There's no way to settle this trough discussion, as it's just the same argument being thrown back and forth. Everyone has their own opinion about whether things can be concluded or not. The best way to settle it is to find out what the majority of people think given the evidence (or lack thereof, depending on your conclusion). A poll is needed here. I also kindly suggest that everyone just "shut up and vote" and we'll see how it goes.

And ST, unless you can provide some kind of evidence for Haki that's something besides "it's not Tekkai", putting Haki on here is closer to speculation than Tekkai is. That's why it's off the poll. 22:12, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

So.. a poll to speculate and base things on opinions. What we really should do is just WAIT AND SEE if it's revealed later. Thought we were a wiki based on facts. 22:13, March 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * It's great that you think that (and I agree that it's speculation to say what the power is) but several other respected editors still think the opposite. How about instead of trying to silence them by not allowing the poll to go forward, we just vote "no" when the poll shows up? I think we can afford to be fair and not practice voter suppression here. 22:22, March 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * I think it was tekkai, but I rather wait and see (maybe in the anime will be clear). I don't like to settle this with a poll. I rather prefer leave it this way then. By the way, why we don't ask klobis to provide a better translation? JSD: there are no respected editors, everyone's opinion count.

Who are the respected editors? Levi is against it, ST is against it, Unicorn is a new editor, Not sure about Sewil's stance, Staw is against it too, and then you are for it. So.. 1 established editor. 22:26, March 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * I meant established editors believe it's tekkai. 22:30, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

I can't believe there's still people who are looking at the facts at play that have already been established and still think we're "speculating". It's the same thing when Drip classified Caribou's ability as Logia (and we clearly saw it was a Logia) and people said that was "speculating". Seriously. The Pope 22:52, March 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * This section is for discussion about the poll, not the issue itself. Please keep comments like that (unrelated to the poll discussion) in the discussion section. 22:59, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how obvious something seems to be (Not that I think it's obvious in this case), we can't add it unless we have an official source. This is pure speculation and we shouldn't poll it at all.

Poll
The poll is currently closed. The poll will run for one week, and will open on Friday, March 15th, 15:00 UTC. You must have an account that has been active for at least three months and have at least 300 edits to vote on this poll.

This poll will decide if Vergo was shown using Tekkai or some other power (be it Haki or otherwise). Please read the section above to understand the arguments before voting.

Should Vergo be confirmed as a Tekkai user?


 * Yes


 * No

Color of Infobox?
Should the color of his infobox really be Doflamingo's? It was never actually stated if Doflamingo even has an organization to begin with, it could just be a bunch of people with him. Even then, who's to say Vergo isn't just a partner? Even if he was, he's still a Vice Admiral of the Marines. So which comes first? The organization or the Marines? 08:06, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

He's a mole in the Marines, his primary allegiance is with Doflamingo (he was explicitly stated to be his subordinate). Associating him with the Marines first would be like associating Vivi with Baroque Works first. 08:33, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

I see your point, though the difference between Vergo having Marine colors and Vivi having BW colors is that Vivi is no longer a member of BW, while Vergo is still a marine. 08:39, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

Soru
look at this. It looks like he used Soru, shouldn't we add this to his Powers and Abilities? someone already tries to add but it got deleted. 92.77.22.24 00:37, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

That could just be Law's heart disappearing. It's hard to tell, though. He probably can use Soru, so it's best just to wait for a better confirmation. 00:45, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

Young Vergo
Is that young Vergo right behind Z on the 691 cover?

AvarusTyrannus (talk) 03:30, December 6, 2012 (UTC)

Sure looks like it, judging by the facial hair. 03:32, December 6, 2012 (UTC)

The Chapter 691 page includes him as a featured character, but his own page doesn't have his face.AvarusTyrannus (talk) 03:39, December 6, 2012 (UTC)

Dead
Vergo was trapped in a room that was blown up, and Law's quote confirms he was in the blast radius. There is no indication he escaped, and plenty to suggest he didn't

. Why hasn't he been counted as deceased?13th madman (talk) 20:17, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you, but I still think we should wait on it. Since we don't have a body, there's room for error. 20:32, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

Because explosions don't kill people in OP.

20:53, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

I hate to do this, but...Pell. Also, let's just wait until we see the place in smithereens beyond recognition and/or a body or remains. 21:02, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

We don't have a body for Monet, just her coughing blood and collapsing, which has only one case of actual fatality in at least five instances in the manga so far. If you're calling her dead, then extend the same to Vergo, surely. It is confirmed Monet's heart got stabbed and she felt it. It is also confirmed the room Vergo was in was completely destroyed, and he was still in there. Same logic applies.13th madman (talk) 22:15, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

With Monet we actually have a visual confirmation. With Vergo we only have an explosion. He can go in the presumed deceased category until we learn more, but there's still too much room for error to put him in the dead category. 23:03, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

I know you're all probably tired of these kind of conversations, but is there any way you can add a banner or something on some articles that specifies the details of their alive status are unknown (or at least, that everything points to them being dead without totally assuming so)? I know this wiki is taken by many as a reliable source, so, as a humble random user of it, I must say these sort of assertions leave me confused. It seems like the only confirmation of someone's death is having a grave and people accepting them as dead years after, so I think that assuming Monet is dead for coughing up blood and being stabbed while Vergo survived an explosion he couldn't possibly escape from is rather illogical. I know it seemed like everything in the scene pointed towards Monet dying, but the same applies to Pell, Pagaya, and Vergo. We've had some characters survive seemingly deadly stabs before. http://www.mangareader.net/103-2310-10/one-piece/chapter-203.html

Again, sorry for reviving the topic, but with deaths being controversial topics in OP, and this being taken as a reliable source, I think the specification must be done in both cases. 190.47.205.207 00:23, January 26, 2013 (UTC)A Fan Of This Wiki

That's why he's in the "presumed decesaed" category. We don't KNOW he's dead. 00:27, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

Then, can it be made more explicit? Monet has her article written in past tense and went to the dead category while Vergo doesn't have anything that indicates he might not be alive. If you'll go thinking a stab can suddenly kill a character in the present timeline, then the same should go for explosions. 190.47.205.207 17:14, January 26, 2013 (UTC)Same dude.

Fine, show us any part of his charred remains, and we'll call him dead. Until then, stop complaining. 18:33, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

Sheesh, one is only asking for the characters to get the same treatment and everyone gets hostile. I didn't know visual confirmation was necessary since a good chunk of the deceased characters don't actually have that (Sabo, Olvia, Clover, Tom, etc). But well, it's your site. Do as you please. But if you're open to critiques, let me tell you this makes you look as a really biased and unreliable source. Sorry for wasting your time.190.110.152.225 02:30, January 30, 2013 (UTC)Same dude.

The point is that we have no idea how big the explosion actually is, or if maybe he somehow escaped. Calling him completely dead would be biased, but leaving it in present tense due to us not being too sure is perfectly fine. Monet was stabbed in the heart and coughed up blood, that is why she is marked dead. 02:38, January 30, 2013 (UTC)

Pell, Bon Kurei, Brownbeard, Kinemon. SeaTerror (talk) 02:52, January 30, 2013 (UTC)

Dude. Seriously. She's a harpy woman who can turn herself into snow and had her heart trapped in a floating cube a mile away from her body. By "harpy" the sentence no longer made sense in the real world. Luffy and Zoro have all received lethal wounds they have survived from - and I think they have coughed enough blood to fill a small pool. And don't even get me started on Whitebeard. You know, even Oda acknowledges surviving is illogical - he didn't even bother to explain how Pell and Pagaya survived. ALL of the secondary character deaths in One Piece have had a reason - to explain traumas that provide character development. WB's is the only exception and it was used to mark a before and after in the OP world. And Monet died by accident just like that?

With Vergo and the Yeti Brothers you just wrote there was an explosion and that they were outside when Smiley exploded, further details unknown. Can't the same be done with Monet? It's not like you're omitting information, you're just writing what the manga showed.

With Vergo, there was simply an explosion. With Monet, she was stabbed in the heart, but the main difference with her we have a BODY. Find Vergo's charred remains and we'll call him dead. Unil then, he's presumed. End of story. 22:44, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

You also had a "body" for Kinemon and Brownbeard. SeaTerror (talk) 23:34, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

That body could've very well fainted, it's not like she was beheaded. You're assuming she's dead and showing it as a fact, when in reality people survive stabs to the heart more often than you'd imagine (google it). If it's possible in the real world then it's more than just possible in the One Piece universe - and this is proven by that Robin scene above. Actually, there may be even more scenes I don't remember atm. 190.110.152.140 06:45, February 2, 2013 (UTC)That Dude

The moment you start comparing One Piece to the real world is the moment all arguments fly out the window, because One Piece isn't the real world, it has its own standards. We know Monet was stabbed in the heart and she then fell over after coughing up blood, with no one around to help her. Caesar stabbed it with the intent to kill, just not her, but since he thought he was killing Smoker there is no reason for him to hold back. With the surrounding circumstances taken into account, Monet should be dead and treated as such. With Vergo, all we know is there was an explosion. We need to see either his remains, or for someone to confirm him as dead through other means. Treat cases of death individually, and not collectively, and things will be much easier for everyone. 22:40, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Agreed. With Monet, we saw the killing blow. This is not the case with Vergo. 22:44, February 2, 2013 (UTC)

Doflamingo's statement
http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/36990 and http://forums.arlongpark.net/showthread.php?t=38230&page=94&p=2824171&viewfull=1#post2824171.

06:25, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

I looked at multiple translations of that chapter, and it never said "Vergo's dead", which probably means your first link isn't accurate. Even if it was there, I'm pretty sure somebody who reads the RAW manga here would have seen it and said something by now. 06:32, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

You looked at Mangastream or Mangapanda probably. Mangarule's initial version didn't have it, but Cnet's version corrected it and they fixed it. Cnet is one of the best translators... soo...... yeahhhhhhhhhh. 06:32, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

We need Klobis to look at it before it gets changed. If it was obvious, every major translation (including mangarule) wouldn't have gotten it wrong at first. 06:35, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

It's fine. Other translators have already fixed it. There isn't a need to get an extra person to check. 06:37, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

More translations are better than less translations. Basing a whole character's demise on one source is just being ignorant. We need to check as many sources as possible to find this. And no, I didn't just check those two. 06:40, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

What'd you check then? 06:42, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

My translation:
 * Smoker: I'll have to apologize to Base Commander Vergo...
 * Doflamingo: He's gone, isn't he!?

Looks like Doflamingo thinks Vergo is dead. --Klobis (talk) 07:31, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

No facts. 07:38, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

How the hell did everyone not catch this? 07:54, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

The scanlations translated it as

Mangastream:


 * Smoker: What can I say... they slipped through my fingers... I'l inform base Captain Vergo as soon as I get back...
 * Doflamingo: So they really are gone?!

Mangarule:


 * Smoker: They slipped right through our fingers... I'll have a lot to answer for to base Commander Vergo...
 * Doflamingo: So they're gone then?!

Mangapanda:


 * Smoker: There was nothing I could do but stand by and let them go..... I'll have to apologise to base Captain Vergo......
 * Doflamingo: .....They're gone right?!

All of these can't possibly be wrong. He's implying that Law and the others escaped before he could deal with them, never once implied that he thought Vergo was dead.

Klobis, can we get a more precise explanation about why Doflamingo is saying "He" instead of "They" like everyone else translated? If it really is a translation error, I'd like to know why everyone else made the mistake. 12:51, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Sewil, all of those can be wrong since they copy each other translations...

They don't copy each other's translations.... They each have their own translator.

My guess would be that the pronoun used by Doflamingo could be interpreted as either "he" or "they". Since the main conversation was Law and the Straw Hats, I'm guessing people contextually thought that Doflamingo was refering to them, thus "they" was used and not "he". I don't speak Japanese, so I can only speculate, but I've heard of things like this happening before. 17:25, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

What does Viz say? Official sources usually has contact with original. 01:54, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

Viz's translation is "You know he's gone...!". However, many people will argue that viz is wrong because of that stupid decision we made. But according to Alpha, Vergo is dead. 02:06, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

I say we call him dead. Gone can really only mean dead in that context. 23:10, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

What a twist. 04:06, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

Vote.

On what? We have confirmation now. 16:25, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

Nothing is confirmed. --Klobis (talk) 03:48, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

He blew up, and then Doflamingo said he was gone in the metaphysical sense of the word. That's evidence enough. 04:38, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Then.. if an enemy thinks Luffy is dead, he will be in dead category? --Klobis (talk) 05:12, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

As long as we don't know better, yes

We have no reason left to believe he is alive (and "this is One Piece" isn't a reason), and a character has supported that he is. 06:49, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

"this is One Piece" Always was a reason. You just don't like it because you were proven wrong by that statement multiple times. SeaTerror (talk) 07:29, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

If that's the case, can we confirm Bellamy, Nelson, Eric and so on are all dead? 07:46, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

The statement "this is One Piece" means alive. SeaTerror (talk) 07:55, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

I was talking to DP. 08:10, March 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * Bellamy isn't dead because of Eternal Log.

I don't think anything is confirmed because we all have different opinions on this, some think he's dead, some don't. Just because a character say he THINKS he's gone it doesn't mean that he is, since all he heard was an explosion through the den den mushi and thought he was dead. That's not really proof enough.

I don't like "this is One Piece" because it doesn't present any actual evidence, it just stubbornly draws on the past, which is the wrong way to go about this kind of thing. As I've said before, examine deaths individually, not retroactively. We know Vergo blew up. We know Doflamingo said he was gone. We have both the event and a confirmation, and no doubt surrounding either of them. As for the others Yatanogarasu mentioned, keep them in the presumed category, since we don't have outside confirmation beyond the event. What else could "You know he's gone" mean in that context? Especially when the guy who said it also personally said goodbye to Vergo. We have more than enough evidence to call him dead. To not do so is just stubborn denial of the obvious. 18:42, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

Proof "this is One Piece" is never a valid argument.

And the fact that Smoker didn't really react when Doflamingo said "you know he's dead" can also show something. Smoker knows he's dead, which is why he isn't surprised. We have a situation that's impossible to survive, and confirmation from one character. Two characters, if you count Smoker's lack-of-reaction as a "you know too?" sort of thing. I think he's safe to put in the dead category now. 19:16, March 12, 2013 (UTC)

That link also shows you ignored previous arguments since Ace and Whitebeard were said to be the only exceptions. SeaTerror (talk) 03:52, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Funny how some people here voted for Monet's death, when they think Vergo isn't. This is an actual spoken confirmation.. so... if you voted for Monet's death (the misuse of symbolism), then the facts actually being here should persuade you that Vergo is dead.

Yata: Bellamy wasn't crossed off in the Eternal Log book, so we have to say he's alive. 03:59, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

I hate to agree with Galaxy here (having voted to say Monet is dead), but he's right. At this point we actually do have better confirmation for Vergo's death than Monet's. 04:24, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Kinemon is alive. Nothing is confirmed, as I said. --Klobis (talk) 07:34, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Given Doflamingo's goodbye to Vergo, I'd say he's probably dead. I'm fine if he's added to the dead category, though I think presumed deceased is a better option. With Dolfamingo on the way and Monet being preoccupied in the control room, there was nobody who could (or even wanted to) save him. And I very much doubt he could get out of there on his own.

And regarding the terrible, terrible, terrible argument that "This is OP, nobody dies": People have been dying onscreen since chapter 1! 15:00, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Kin'emon didn't get his ass blown up point blank while castrated, just uselessly encased. Doflamingo said he was gone, which contextually could only mean dead. I don't understand why people are still so hesitant to do it even after we have confirmation. We can't be afraid of plot twists, and must take things as they come. 18:44, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

Sabo is confirmed dead in a databook (though translation is dodgy), and we thought he might have survived. After all, those who died in Ohara were not seen, but we confirm them dead anyways, so why not Vergo? 19:11, March 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * And what's this about Bellamy not dying and Eternal Log? 19:12, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

At the One Piece ten exhibition, Bellamy's bounty is shown as active, and not as deceased. 20:59, March 13, 2013 (UTC)

The smoldering corpse of Brownbeard, who was shot at point-blank range, was alive. Why cannot you choose presumed deceased, DancePowderer? --Klobis (talk) 03:17, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

There's many people who think that the "Presumed Deceased" category is a terrible category. Not that I don't like the category though, and actually, I agree with you. WU out - 15:21, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Vergo got blown up after getting castrated and saying his goodbyes and Doflamingo said he was gone. It's enough to call him dead. Anyone who argues it at this point is simply being stubborn and ignoring the facts. 22:29, March 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * He (Brownbeard) was seen as a smoldering corpse, no one said anything otherwise, so he's dead. Our judgments don't transcend the characters' statements or the events in the manga.DancePowderer Talk 01:25, May 26, 2012 (UTC) Anyone who argues it at this point is simply being stubborn and ignoring the facts.
 * ---> Brownbeard is not dead :-) Let's not repeat it. --Klobis (talk) 02:18, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

We're not talking about Brownbeard. We're talking about Vergo in a completely different set of circumstances. Let's not compare deaths, and examine this as an individual case. 02:22, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

It is because if we follow DP's view, all characters who are said to be dead must go to the dead category. Luffy and crew "died" many times... --Klobis (talk) 03:08, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

If you go back and actually check your work, I pushed for Vergo to go into the presumed deceased category when the explosion first happened. It wasn't until we learned the new information that I decided he should be recategorized. I don't know what you can actually cite with the Straw Hats, but main characters are exempt from this sort of thing due to the fact that they are main characters. 03:13, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

Why would main characters be exempt? That's just having a double standard. You're telling me you wouldn't have marked Luffy dead in Alabasta when he was "killed" by Crocodile? Anyways, we never should use past false deaths to prove a future death wrong. Chopper said that Brownbeard was dead, so we had no other option then to throw him in the category. In this case, we also have a character saying that Vergo is dead, which means that we should consider him dead too because we're basing it on facts presented in the manga, and not speculating based on the past. 03:17, March 15, 2013 (UTC)

Ignoring the first part of your statement to avoid unrelated argument, yes, we should follow the protocol. We have no reason to believe he is alive and someone else confirmed it. Speculating based on the past is just dumb. 03:22, March 15, 2013 (UTC)