Forum:Pre/Post timeskip switch

Problem:
We recently decided to use a pre/post time skip swich in the infobox of some of the characters in One Piece, but there are still some problems needed to be solved. There might be some other problems that i haven't took into account, so feel free to add them if you come up with any.
 * Which image do we use as default (pre/post time skip)?
 * for which characters do we use the switch? we can't have a swich for every character, because some of them didn't change after the time skip, and some characters we haven't even seen yet after the time skip.

Discussion starts here
i think we should use the pre time skip image as defaul, because this is how the characters looked in the beginning, and people who hadn't reached the time skip yet can identify with the characters easier this way.

as for witch characters should have the switch, i think it obvious that all the straw hats need it. if think Keimi need a switch too. Strawhat1 12:40, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

I think it is unquestioned to use the switch function for each Straw Hat, they are the very reason why the vote was hold in the first place. As to the default picture, I don't mind either way.


 * Pro pre timeskip: People who didn't reach the timeskip yet can identify the characters easier.


 * Pro after timeskip: People who started reading after the skip can identify the characters easier.

So yeah, it's like tossing a coin.

As for other characters, well I think we should use it for every character visibly affected by the timeskip. With visibly affected I mean things like scars, growth, adjustments etc. (not just a new dress or uniform.)

Example:

Perona should have an after timeskip switch because she visibly matured in the 2 years.

Makino should not because she looks exactly the same. 12:56, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

i think we should make a list of all the characters that need the switch, so i will make a different section for the list. Strawhat1 13:11, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think we should make a list here, not now anyway. We can still discuss that in the talk pages if we decide something like Jinbe said. You can provide examples though, if you want.

As well as discussing, let's gather the problems we have to solve as well possible options. My opinions:
 * Which version to use: preferably the post-timeskip one.
 * Why preferably? Because we should still follow the "quality" principle, so if post time skip image isn't really suited for the infobox (low resolution for example) it should remain either in the gallery/history section, or leave the pre-timeskip as default until we get a better image (like an anime or a color-spread).
 * Which characters: I agree with Jinbe, only characters visibly affected by the timeskip (For example, Zeff isn't one of them). If someone wants the switch only for the Straw Hats, say it.
 * To avoid problems: past appearance (like flash back) doesn't count as "pre-timeskip" images, I think... so Hody as a child should remain in his history section. We should limit the image as the ones from the "present". So every character presented from now on won't be affected by this discussion.

About your quality principle, I kinda don't agree with your values there. Resolution - ok -, but I'm against forcibly waiting for anime or color spreads. A normal manga shot is perfectly fine as long as the size isn't too small or the quality too bad (but that goes for every picture, not really related to the switch).

Pretty much agree with your other points tho. I understand the timeskip itself as a major cut that separates the 2 halves of the One Piece series, flashbacks appearances are another matter and shouldn't be considered. 13:41, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Anime and color-spread were examples, I have nothing against manga images (I voted for the anime/manga switch after all). As you said as long the resolution and the quality are ok, then there isn't any problem. I said that because for some characters there can be only few pictures after the time-skip and maybe they can be not so suited for the infobox.


 * do you think we need to have a vote on the defaul image, or should we just discuss about it? Strawhat1 14:16, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * For now let's gather the problems we have to solve and possible voting options, then we will eventually make the poll. It takes some time to gather everybody's opinion.

My vote is to have the pre-timeskip image as the default, then switch to the post-timeskip... For now. Personally, as time goes on, and we get further into the second half of this long, epic journey, I say we make the post-timeskip image the default. That being said, I think we should wait until the anime to use images for the info-boxes. - BattleFranky202 17:38, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

List of all the characters that need the switch:
Please write here all the characters you think should have a switch. Please don't write the same character twice.
 * Luffy
 * Zoro
 * Nami
 * Usopp
 * Sanji
 * Chopper
 * Robin
 * Franky
 * Brook
 * Keimi
 * Perona
 * Rika
 * Ninjin
 * Tamanegi
 * Piiman
 * Yosaku
 * Johnny
 * Nojiko
 * Chabo
 * Mr. 9
 * Wapol

I don't think this part is needed (at least now)... it will needed if we will decide to go as Jinbe said, but we can still discuss this in the talk pages.

one of the things needed to be solved is: wich character gets the swich? if we decide to give a swich only for the straw hats, than we will deletethe list. but for now we are making a swich to all the characters who have changed, and it is a good thing that we make a list so early, so we wont mise any character. Strawhat1 14:13, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

Just a list won't work because we might lose some and more characters in need of a switch might come along. We should just have a general rule and decide on a case by case basis. Bastian964 23:09, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

but we can't go through every single character! especially when most of them didn't make an appearance after the time skip. our general rule can be this: no character that appeared after the time skip gets a switch, even if it had a flashback. other characters will only get a switch if their appearance change. it shouldn't be so hard to make a list, because we don't have to pass through every character, in one piece, only the once that appeared after the time skip, so we have to look back at the chapters that are after the time skip. Strawhat1 07:40, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

i have a question - will we give a switch to characters that appeared only in "From the Decks of the World" mini series, or should we leave them out? Strawhat1 07:44, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

No. Default image should always be pre-timeskip because that is what the characters were introduced as. SeaTerror 09:51, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

No. Default image should always be post-timeskip because that is how the characters currently look like. It is the current policy, see e.g. Coby.

how is that the current policy? up until now we used the general look of the characters, not the current look. i think we should use the pre time skip, because of what @SeaTerror said and because people who didn't reach the time skip would recognize the characters better. Strawhat1 11:22, August 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * How is it the current policy? Well, can't find a better answer than "because it is"… Here are other examples aside from Coby: Helmeppo, Alvida, Duval. I can't find any counterexample.


 * You COULD quote the guidelines on this one; The clothes the character in the image have to be at least the ones that they are most commonly seen in. A good example would be Luffy's red vest and blue pants. They do not have to be the most up to date, however if the standard clothes the character wears changes, then the new style may replace the old in such an occurrence. This CAN be changed though, its not set in stone. ^_^' One-Winged Hawk 14:02, August 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * I will put a note that the previous defination of "up to date" just to refers to characters like Nami and Robin who change their outfits often (see the rule after it #5), it was to save us having to update the outfit they wore every arc. Major changes weren't included... Because we never expected a major change like that of a time skip. Again, this can be tweaked to make it more defined so no worries. ^_^' One-Winged Hawk 14:04, August 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yep, notice that I only included examples of radical appearance changes, not just changes of outfit (I discarded Jango for example).


 * These toggling things will have to be very definate, otherwise you will never explain "why this just can't go in the Appearance section". So guys, please make sure all of this is tidy, this will most likely end up with someone having to add a section just to explain the purpose of Appearances anyway. But right now I'm not pushing that issue until this is sorted. I'm bored of saying that so I'll make that the last time I say it. I just hope there isn't another time skip planned in several years time otherwise this will all get very messy. I guess we'll cross that hurdle when we get to it. :-/ One-Winged Hawk 14:31, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Sff9, the current look is what matter, but anyway there will be both options, so just say your reasons if you want. About your question strawhat1, the characters that appeared in "From the Decks of the World" were all introduced before so why not? That depends on the discussion about the "unchanged characters" though (we will vote on this too), for example, in my opinion with people like Zeff a switch won't add anything while it's worth with people like Rika.

if you think she can have a switch, than add her to the list, as well as all the other characters you all think should have a switch. it will be more organized if we will have a list and we won't have to look for all the characters people mentioned in the discussion. Strawhat1 12:17, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

should we have a switch for Makino and Kaya? they seem to have matured a lot... i don't think we need to have aswitch for Mr. 9 and Miss Monday. what do you think? Strawhat1 12:34, August 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * I personnelly don't think a switch is needed unless theres a major change of appearance overall, but you may just want to wait a while for a better image to come up. Knowing Oda though... Ah... Thats 5 years in the future. So that might not be a great idea. ¬_¬ One-Winged Hawk 14:08, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

When we're done, we could do with an example on the Image Guidelines.

''BTW I just opened up the space for all this to go into. I'm updating the IG today now I've got time, if anyone has an issue with anything, let me know.'' One-Winged Hawk 14:24, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

No the original look is what actually matters. Whoever changed the others to post-timeskip made up their own "policy" since sff9 claims that is "policy" SeaTerror 17:32, August 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * All the infobox pictures of the examples I gave are pre-timeskip. It was meant to show that even before the timeskip, the policy de facto (I don't claim anything, it's a fact anyone can notice) was to use current appearance rather than original appearance.


 * (edit conflict) I think Sff9 was referring at Coby's example because he had a drastically change of appearance during the story (note: during the pre-timeskip, since we didn't see him yet), so if in that case (and others like Alvida) we preferred the newest look it's not so absurd to use the post-timeskip as default. We will vote on this anyway.
 * i think we should start the vote now on the default image, because every one is saying what they think and we should just put ut to a vote. i also think we should have a shorter vote of like a week instead of two, because this is not the the big vote, this is just a vote about a smaller subject the came later. Strawhat1 18:56, August 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * i think we should start the vote now on the default image, because every one is saying what they think and we should just put ut to a vote. i also think we should have a shorter vote of like a week instead of two, because this is not the the big vote, this is just a vote about a smaller subject the came later. Strawhat1 18:56, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Basically we should add it in every character that appeared after the timeskip... No exceptions, only Dorry and Broggy - Patty, Zeff and Carne - Momonga... Oh and Sentomaru should be on the list too..

Ok but let's wait a couple of days, meanwhile we should discuss if there are other problems over the switch. We have just focused on the default image, so if you think there are other discussions to make just bring up the problem.

so far no one brought up any other problem, and i think we should have the vote about the default image, because we were only talking about this and the list and we can just get one thing over with. we can continue the discussion while the vote is taking place.

for @LPK, if you think a character needs to have a switch then put it on the list. Strawhat1 20:43, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

but, @LPK, i don't agree with some of the characters you mentioned. we are only making a switch for characters who have changed after the time skip - we do have exceptions, because if we will make a switch for every character that appeared after the time skip, then we will have two images that are the same and that doesn't make sense. Strawhat1 20:49, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

I've suggested to wait a little before voting and making a list, because we will decide everything in one poll, it's no use starting a vote over the default image then voting over other things... it will become a mess. And it's ok to start making the list, but I said to wait on that too because if the option "everybody gets a switch" will win, the list will be useless, also it's not clear if the current list is meant for characters who have changed or to gather all the characters seen again after the timeskip up until now. Let's wait until tomorrow at least.

If you wouldn't mind, I know its set up on pre-time skip and post right now, but could we just have two additionals added to the tabs?


 * Most updated look (updates as we change)
 * Most common/well known (thats closet to what we would consider as our current "default" we have now according to IG)

Thats all I have to input. Right now I'm reading what everyone is saying... In a few cases the timeskip hasn't left the characters changing much. I did warn though this wasn't going to be easy. One-Winged Hawk 18:43, August 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't understand, are you suggesting a four-way switch? Isn't it basically another kind of switch? I think is easier to decide over the default image, beside this is an issue regarding the normal profiles too.


 * Their aimed at the post and pre-time skips... As in "the most up to date pre/post" or "average look pre-post" I didn't make it clear. Sorry about that. I'm trying to make this more definate on WHAT we're after here. Mostly because theres another section of everyone characters page that needs an IG written on it when we're done so the more sure on what the toggle images will have the better. One-Winged Hawk 21:40, August 16, 2011 (UTC)

Nothing is ever easy Hawk, and if it was easy, if would be no fun at all, sorry I've been gone so much, but now I'm here, I tried to read all of your discussion, but I simply could not since it was way too much, but I got the big picture, this time-skip is the biggest difference between what "was and is" regarding the toggling topic, a big change in the manga needs to bring forth a change in the guidelines, toggling, this will need a vote as well..., but not until the first poll ends, BUT either way I'm gonna write it here so:What characters should hhave in their infoboxes the toggling option? The SH; everyone; the ones that changed after the time-skip at least one bit;

@StrawHat1: Those characters(Dorry and Broggy - Patty, Zeff and Carne - Momonga) are the only ones that we shouldn't add the switch on them. Thats what I meant.

i think we should start the vote. the vote will have this categorie:

1) defaulte image:


 * pre time skip as defaulte image.


 * post time skip as defaulte image.

2) witch characters should have a switch?


 * all of the characters that appeared before and after the time skip.


 * only the straw hats.


 * only the characters that changed their appearance after the time skip.

does anyone else wants to add something to the vote before we start it? Strawhat1 06:21, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, as mentioned earlier plus one additional I came up with;

Which version of the characters look should be used for both pre and post timeskip;


 * Most common appearance (e.g. Luffy's red vest and hat)
 * Most recent appearance
 * Best overall representation (regardless of if it is the most recent or common appearance they have, in other words the one that screams "Luffy" or "Zoro" the most)

I'd like to get this out the way because this is update to clarify a particular aspect of IG that is not closed enough.One-Winged Hawk 11:43, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

Poll
The restrictions for voting are, unless the community says otherwise, min 300 edits and 3 month on the wiki. The restriction are only for voting, not for the discussion.

The poll will last two weeks, so it will end at the 00:00 am of the August 31. (if you want to change the duration discuss it). This vote will decide on the specifics regarding the pre/post time skip switch:

Default image:


 * Use of pre time skip images as default.
 * 1)  Pi ec e • En ri k •     talk   co   13:14, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1)  Pi ec e • En ri k •     talk   co   13:14, August 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * Use of post time skip images as default.
 * 1) One-Winged Hawk 16:24, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * 11:56, August 18, 2011 (UTC)

Characters who will get the switch:


 * All of the characters that appeared before and after the time skip will get the switch.
 * 1) One-Winged Hawk 16:24, August 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * Only the straw hats will get the switch.


 * Only the characters that changed their appearance after the time skip will get the switch.
 * 1)  Pi ec e • En ri k •     talk   co   13:14, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * 11:56, August 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * 11:56, August 18, 2011 (UTC)

Which version of the characters look should be used for both pre and post timeskip:
 * First appearence


 * Most common appearance (e.g. Luffy's red vest and hat)
 * 1)  Pi ec e • En ri k •     talk   co   13:14, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * 2) One-Winged Hawk 16:24, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * 11:56, August 18, 2011 (UTC)


 * Most recent appearance
 * Most recent physical appearance
 * 1.
 * Most recent physical appearance
 * 1.
 * 1.


 * 2.


 * 3.


 * Best overall representation (regardless of if it is the most recent or common appearance they have, in other words the one that screams "Luffy" or "Zoro" the most)
 * 1.


 * 2.


 * 3.


 * Will this choice affect every infobox?
 * Yes, it will be our policy reagarding infobox pictures (included those without switch)
 * 1.One-Winged Hawk 07:47, August 18, 2011 (UTC) keeps everything more universal, plus it updates a vague and out dated IG.


 * 2.


 * 3.


 * No, it will regard only the infobox with switches (both pre/post time-skip)
 * 1.


 * 2.


 * 3.

Neutral

1. 11:56, August 18, 2011 (UTC)

2.

3.

Poll Discussion/Other Suggestions
I'd like the permission to vote on this poll, in spite the fact that i'm new to this wiki and i didn't edit 300 times, this vote is important to me, and i was the one who started it, so i'd like to participate in this poll. Strawhat1 12:22, August 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * I have nothing against you voting, but if you are allowed to vote then we should change the restriction to the poll to let everybody vote. I think it's unfair to make an exception only for you.

Regarding the last poll I think the option "first look" should be added (for example, Coby's case), and I don't understand some things: We can always add more options to include/not include the outfits.
 * will it affect the normal profiles too? (those without switch)
 * For "most recent (or first) appearance" we mean only the physical look or we include the "outfit" too? Because, for example, I'd like to vote for "most recent appearance", but I don't mean outfits changes... we have to be clear on this.

i have no problem letting everyone vote, i will change it right now.

@levi, i don't think it should change the profile without a switch, because that will case only unnecessary work, and i'm not in favor of it in general. about the second question, i think you should ask @hawk, she suggested it. Strawhat1 13:09, August 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * No wait, I think "let everybody votes" is something to decide all together, maybe with a quick poll, maybe someone has complains to just change the restriction like that, so please undo that. I think the last poll should regard all profiles, so we can decide once for all what image choose.

We had a forum about the rules. And the results are 300 edits and 3 months. We cant change it whenever we want.


 * If its a case of a few missing edits, that IS possible to resolve by the end of the poll so you can vote, even if its just a quick one (one week) just by some serious knuckling down and editing. Heck, I used to have this handy dandy list of things editors can do if they feel they want to do some SERIOUS editing. I can always resurrect it if you want. Originally it was meant to poke fun at a whiner though who conplained and criticised the wikia for being oh so wrong... When he wasn't prepared to actually EDIT the wikia to help clean it up. Haha! It sorta put him in his place, but in due respects the list was actually quite a serious one with a LOT off problems to resolve. While it was fun to shove in his face, it reflected the darker problems of the wikia... :-/ One-Winged Hawk 14:58, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

i changed it back and deleted my votes. if changing the restrictions takes so much time (if it's even possible) then we should let it go. Strawhat1 13:28, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

but what do you say about making it a quick vote of one week instead of two? this is not the big vote of making a switch, this is the small vote that came later for the little details. what do you think? Strawhat1 13:32, August 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * I say if you really want to vote, maybe we can add a little poll that will last a week about the poll restriction, to choose if use the normal restriction or none (but in this poll the normal restriction are still applied). Aside from that are clothing included in the "appearance"? We have to be clear on this, also if that counts for normal profile too.


 * Erm... Can I just say this; can we just stick to the rules. You complained about me stepping in and closing toggling temporay while I tried and sort a mess on IG because of the sudden toggling thing. Now please after all the lectures from that one panic action of mine don't turn around and abuse the rules. If you don't want to follow the rules, don't go rubbing the rules on someone else. It is also disrespectful to everyone who voted on the poll for voting restrictions. SH has restracted the vote and understood the rules; leave it at that.


 * If you say a greenbelt piece of land cannot be built on, don't keep digging it up to add an odd house here and there because there won't be a greenbelt anymore. ^_- One-Winged Hawk 16:22, August 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * Appearance? I wrote it to mean overall look. Do we need to define that? ^_^' One-Winged Hawk 16:23, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * lets leave the restrictions as they are, it creates too many problems. but what about making the vote shorter to one week insted of two? Strawhat1 16:40, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * lets leave the restrictions as they are, it creates too many problems. but what about making the vote shorter to one week insted of two? Strawhat1 16:40, August 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * Me sure you are cryptic angel... I just say to make things clear, you said that too otherwise it will be a mess. What I mean is, if we vote for the "most recent appearance" we will change the pic for every suit Nami or Robin will wear or we will just change it if there will be changes in the phisical appearence? (that's what I mean for "most recent appearance" for example) If I have this doubt, maybe other has it too, I simply don't want to cause misunderstanding. That's why I wanted to wait a little before start voting...

Well, in my opinion the last part should go as this:


 * Which version of the characters look should be used?
 * First appearance - as they looked in the period when they were first presented
 * Most common appearance including outfits (e.g. Luffy's red vest and hat)
 * Most recent appearance including outfits - basically the current look and outfit (change it every arc)
 * Most recent physical appearance - if there will be physical changes, the image must be show them (e.g. Coby, Alvida; Luffy current picture is ok)
 * Best overall representation (regardless of if it is the most recent or common appearance they have, in other words the one that screams "Luffy" or "Zoro" the most) - case by case decision


 * Will this choice affect every infobox?
 * Yes, it will be our policy reagarding infobox pictures (included those without switch)
 * No, it will regard only the infobox with switches (both pre/post time-skip)

With this we can decide once for all how choose the infobox picture... what do you think? Also adding a "neutral" option to every point is a good idea. @Strawhat: since there are still ongoing problems about this problem I think is a good idea to leave the deadline in 2 weeks.

i agree with you, @levi. Strawhat1 17:32, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not cryptic, I just forgot to make things definate... Don't forget, I'm the one who wrote IG and left things too open here in the first place on a few issues, but in some cases since no one gave me feedback at the time it was a little "shot in the dark" or open because it had to take int consideration on what we had at the time. T_T One-Winged Hawk 07:51, August 18, 2011 (UTC)