Talk:Joy Boy

necessity
Shouldnt we integrate this page with the Poneglyph page? A 2 sentence page is never desirable. 11:18, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

No we shouldn't cause if they reveal more info on "Joy Boy" we need somewhere to put it.joshua 11:21, June 18, 2011 (UTC)J Valente

Yes, when they reveal more stuff we could make a page for it. Now it's not necessary to be it's own page. Also please sign your posts with ~ -- 11:25, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

I already deleated this page because the name can be related to even "will of D ", so we would create the page again when everything is known about him.

12:08, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

But we could also keep it, give it a reference to chapter 628 and add more as we learn about him during One Piece, we should leave it be until further discussion at least. 12:17, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

It does not make sense lol, because it can be anything. If it is related to will of D then we may not able to look out this page or this page would be not imaporatant.

12:21, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

We can keep it on the poneglyph page itself. No need for this page. 12:36, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

same info is carried on poneglyph page and even spelling is not correct

12:38, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

ok,ok 12:39, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

Name
Does anyone know why the wiki calls him "Joy Boy" instead of "Joyboy"? There's no indication of a space in the Katakana. I'm asking this because in Volume 95, Amazonlily (アマゾンリリー) was corrected to Amazon Lily (アマゾン・リリー), indicating that spacing is important enough to Oda. Was his name translated like this somewhere in the raws? • Seelentau 愛 議 14:36, January 20, 2020 (UTC)

We have cases like Laugh Tale (ラフテル), though. 17:26, January 20, 2020 (UTC)

Which was "Raftel" until its actual name was revealed. Similarily, it should be "Joyboy" until the actual name is revealed to be "Joy Boy". • Seelentau 愛 議 10:59, January 21, 2020 (UTC)

And even after the reveal, it is Laugh Tale (with a space) while the Japanese doesn't have the separation dot. Rhavkin (talk) 12:40, January 21, 2020 (UTC)

That's true, and if we had a confirmed name for ジョイボーイ, it would be a good example of Oda being inconsistent. But we don't and currently, the likelihood of ジョイボーイ being written as "Joyboy" is higher than being written as "Joy Boy". • Seelentau 愛 議 16:03, January 21, 2020 (UTC)

How is the likelihood higher? Rhavkin (talk) 16:08, January 21, 2020 (UTC)

There's no space in the Katakana. If the Katakana were just mentioned for the first time, I'm pretty sure we'd have him written as "Joyboy" without any discussion and anyone who'd have asked why it's not "Joy Boy" would've been told exactly that: There's no space in the Katakana. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:25, January 21, 2020 (UTC)

So do you think we should change Whole Cake Island and Mont Blanc Noland to name a few? Rhavkin (talk) 16:33, January 21, 2020 (UTC)

This isn't about their names, it's about Joyboy. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:45, January 21, 2020 (UTC)

If your only argument is "There's no space in the Katakana, so there shouldn't be a space in English", what's the difference between those cases? Rhavkin (talk) 16:58, January 21, 2020 (UTC)

They were given official names, Joyboy wasn't. But, I mean, we can easily compare arguments for and against the space:


 * Against: There's no space in the Katakana.
 * For: Don't know, you tell me. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:04, January 21, 2020 (UTC)

For:
 * Numerous times in the past, when using non-Japanese words, the Katakana has no separation dot, like islands (Whole Cake Island (ホールケーキアイランド)), people (Mont Blanc Noland (モンブラン・ノーランド)), events (Knock Up Stream), locations (Grand Line), or objects (Log Pose).
 * There is no official naming so protocol says to leave the page as is until proven otherwise.

Rhavkin (talk) 19:20, January 21, 2020 (UTC)

So basically the reasoning is "It's always been like that and although it's wrong, it might turn out right so we're gonna leave it wrong.", I see. By the way, only one of those examples is actually fitting, which is Noland's, since that's the only person's name. And he got an official spelling, so it doesn't fit either. Or do you think this character's name is Mr. Boy? :D • Seelentau 愛 議 10:48, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

The point is that English words written in Katakana do not have space. Rhavkin (talk) 11:05, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

モンブラン・ノーランド has a space, though. Real life examples exist too, of course. Oh and the official VIZ version names him "Joyboy" too, right? So from what I see, "Joy Boy" is a fan translation, right? Why are we using it when there's enough reason not to? Just because of other cases that have almost no relation? • Seelentau 愛 議 13:30, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

The space is between his first and last name, not in the last name. Rhavkin (talk) 13:56, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

Exactly. So why do we act like there's a space in "Joyboy" when there is none? • Seelentau 愛 議 14:22, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

What don't you understand? The lack of a space in Katakana does not mean there is not a space in English. Yes, there is no official "Joy Boy" but there is no official "Joyboy" as well, and since there is no new reason for a change, why change? Especially when there are more cases that prove there is a space, with the no space argument is only because of the viz translation, which was never 100% credible. Rhavkin (talk) 14:49, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

My point is: There shouldn't be no new reason, because "Joy Boy" should've never been a thing in the first place. It's an erroneous translation of the Katakana, since it makes up a space where there is none. It doesn't even need a comparison to other unfit examples (Noland has an official translation, Joyboy doesn't) or a comparison to VIZ. Those cases don't prove that there's a space in "Joyboy" after all, they only prove that there's a space in their own names. Which brings me back to "It's always been like that and although it's wrong, it might turn out right so we're gonna leave it wrong." - and I thought this wiki had a higher quality standard than willingly keeping a wrong translation? Because as you know, if it turns out to be "Joy Boy" after all, we can still change it back. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:37, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

This wiki does have a higher quality standard, which is way we don't rename articles without a cause. As I said, both "Joy Boy" and "Joyboy" are not official, so again, why change? If we'll ever get an official translation to either, there wouldn't be a discussion, but until there is there is no reason to change one possible name in favor of another possible name.

You still failed to convince a lack of space in the Katakana means a lack of space in English, so there is no reason to choose this possible name. If you truly think there is a possibility that "Joy Boy" might be the right name, why change the page twice? Rhavkin (talk) 16:10, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

Because the possibility is very slim, unless "Boy" is intended to be this person's first name (because of Japanese naming conventions, his Western name would be "Boy Joy"). But that's what we're presenting right now: That there's a character named "Boy Joy". Which isn't the case, because there is no space in the name, as I said multiple times now. This is also the reason why the comparisons with names such as "Whole Cake Island" don't work - they're not peoples' names. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:16, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

Is "Joyboy" a real enough name? How many "Luffy"s and "Dragon"s do you know in real life? If Oda wants to call his characters "Joy", "Boy", or whatever he wants, its fictional. There is a characters called "Kid", is "Boy" really that of a slim possibility? Rhavkin (talk) 16:39, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

It's not about the weirdness of the name (although "Boy Joy" is really weird, if you think about it), it's about how we present this character's name as first + last name (or reverse), because we add a space where none should be. Despite in the Japanese manga, no indication of it being first + last name exists at all (because there's no space). • Seelentau 愛 議 17:28, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

Mont Blanc is one name despite being two words. Look at other character pages, like Luffy's where he is mostly refereed simply as "Luffy", while here the character is always refereed to as "Joy Boy". No where in the page the name is treated as first and last name in any order. Rhavkin (talk) 17:40, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

Again: Noland was officially named, Joyboy wasn't. So it's hardly comparable. And yes, it's always "Joy Boy", so why not make it "Joyboy" to follow the Japanese Katakana? It's not like you need to do anything, my bot can change it in like ten minutes. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:47, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

Mont Blanc was indeed officially named, which is another example that no space in the Katakana doesn't means no space in the name. Again, the reason to not rename everything is that "Joyboy" is equally not official, regardless of the time it will take to change it. Rhavkin (talk) 18:09, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

As I said: Just because it was the case for other characters, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's the same for Joyboy. "Joyboy" is in a sense official in that it's the direct translation of the Katakana - without added space, which is the entire point. I don't understand why you're so against change. It's not like it has any effect on you, has it? • Seelentau 愛 議 19:02, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

How does not changing effects you? Literal translation is not official in any way. Rhavkin (talk) 19:18, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

"Literal translation is not official in any way." Yes it is. That's a proper translation. I'm pretty sure this article was originally at Joyboy anyway. SeaTerror (talk) 20:38, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

The literal and VIZ translations of Yonko and Shichibukai are Four Emperors and Seven Warlords of the Sea respectively. Should they be renamed as well? And don't bring up false nonsense, go to the page history to the first entry of the page and see it was always "Joy Boy". Now, do you have anything of value to contribute on the topic? Rhavkin (talk) 20:55, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

It doesn't need to be official to be objectively better. And it doesn't affect me, but the wiki. Right now, we have an objectively wrong-named article: translates to "Joyboy". There is no space in the name, so we shouldn't have one. That's literally the whole point, I can't believe this has been going on for so long. Why would anyone say "uuh no there could be a space in the official translation like in X, Y and Z". Of course there could be. It could also be that the official name is "Joi Boi" or whatever else Oda comes up with. But that's not the point. The only point is that if ジョイボーイ is correctly translated, it should either be "Joibōi" (because we have no official name) or "Joyboy", because that's the most likely meaning and correct without a space.

Other than that, I can only repeat myself. And I appreciate your input, SeaTerror. Wish others would reply as well, but apparently, nobody really cares^^ • Seelentau 愛 議 23:02, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

What you do not understand is that this is the way the wiki works: If there is no official name we go what have been done before, like in X, Y, and Z. Rhavkin (talk) 23:22, January 22, 2020 (UTC)

I really don't think the wiki operates like that. "Joy Boy" is taken from fan-translations, if they had decided to use "Joyboy" instead, I'm 100% sure this wiki would now use "Joyboy" too. Especially considering how none of the cases you presented are similar to Joyboy's. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:18, January 23, 2020 (UTC)

One Piece Wiki:Guidebook/Page Naming Guidelines Rhavkin (talk) 19:22, January 23, 2020 (UTC)

...it says right there: "We will use the most accurate name regardless of how popular it is and whether or not the official translation uses it." - so how is my proposed name change an issue? "Joyboy" is the most accurate name.

It also says "the wiki knows which scanlations are accurate and will use those translations unless they are proven inaccurate" - agin, "Joy Boy" is inaccurate because there's no space in the Katakana.

Besides, it also says "If you do not have a solid grasp of reading and understanding Japanese, please do not attempt to dictate a name spelling." - I assume you know Japanese then, considering your participation in this discussion? • Seelentau 愛 議 20:17, January 25, 2020 (UTC)


 * "...regardless of how popular it is and whether or not the official translation uses it." - Your point of the official release uses "Joyboy" is irrelevant.
 * "the wiki knows which scanlations are accurate and will use those translations unless they are proven inaccurate" - The wiki uses "Joy Boy" since it was first appeared, so trust that when the article was made, the wiki decided to use this name over "Joyboy" for a proper reason.
 * "If you do not have a solid grasp of reading and understanding Japanese, please do not attempt to dictate a name spelling." - I have a basic understanding on the most part, but I am not trying "to dictate a name spelling", just keep an article from being rename without a good cause.

Rhavkin (talk) 22:28, January 25, 2020 (UTC)