Forum:Another image related issue

I'm going to go back to regulating the images in histories sections a little earlier then I planned... Last night I was starring at Kuma's page and thinking "Thats bad..." this morning however I saw Nami's page and realised this is a little more common then I expected.

Problems encountered on Nami's page that are being reflected in the rest of the wikia;


 * Images used for deecoration. i'll give a example; Nami in the bath scene.  Yeah, I know there are some pervs who like this kind of thing on the wikia and I know our rules do give leyway for such things, but I think most capable people can work out what somee taking a bath is like.  This wasn't the best thing Nami did in the recent chapter and another image would have done better.  But this has become quite common, to use an image for decoration and I saw someone asking for more images to be added to Lola's page for this very reason this week.  That is disappointing, both there wasn't any images to be begin with and the request to be added for pure decorational reasons rather then seeing the request to support.


 * Image overload returns. Example from Nami's page, we don't need two images for the Miss Doublefinger Vs Nami fight... Thats too much. Also editors should not rush to add a image from every chapter, or as they've been doing recently, as soon as the character appears in a front page story or a image per paragraph. Thats better off in the "appearances" section if it just show what they look like now. This pretty much seems to be a lot of Kuma's page problems.  Likewise, when a new arc begins, editors shouldn't look for the first image to snap next to a paragraph.  :-/


 * Lack of regulation. I've see people requesting better quality images and request for better ones while I wasn't a regular, but this also involves removal of uneeded images... You know don't be afriad to remove images if it gets too much guys.  I will note Nami's page got progressively WORST the further it went down for images.  Even now if you read the ealry sections of the page, you see a good image to text ratio.

Now Image Guidelines doesn't cover instructions on when to post this kind of images or how to regulate a page. I don't think we need to update them, but I'd like a few people to express their thoughts on the matter. Essentially we may be considering just updating to state what a good "Image Vs Text" ratio is or something. I don't know. Unless someone sits there and prevents image overload occuring, when whoever is regulating images goes away for long periods of time, this is the consquences of their absence. If anyothing, I'd simply like to update to give more grounds and confience for my fellow editors to remove a image when images get out of hand, because last time this issue came up I recall someone mentioning they were afriad to do this.

However, if we can avoid any serious updating of IG this time, I'll be glad as it feels too much like nit picking and not enough like allowance for a little freedom for the wikia needs. I myself love we can add images on a page as it makes the page easier to read. But even though isn't wikipedia I do agree with the fact that the more images you have on a page the more issues you have explaining the use of so much copyrighted material. One-Winged Hawk 09:34, January 26, 2012 (UTC)

Edit:

Just a minor note, we had two images of Kuma in the revolutionary army on his page, one in the appearance section and the hsitory section just showing he once wore a brown cloak and wa in the revolutionary army from looking at them. A image in eithr section would have done. We also had two images of Kuma being modified (I mentioned this was an issue with Nami's page also) when one is all thats needed. One-Winged Hawk 09:43, January 26, 2012 (UTC)

Edit:

Sorry for the second edit, I just want to note its worth mentioning in regardiance to that Nami bath scene that it HAS been a issue with both Nami and Robin tha we've had a lot of non-useful images uploaded like that. For example, during the Ice Hunter arc I believe, someone uploaded images of both when they appeared in bikinis; even though both costumes were filler. When asked why they were added, the person pretty much just added them for eye candy. I'm not so a prune that I think its bad, as I did question once our complete disregard over images that were a little bit saucey altogether.

I'm not quite sure how to approach the matter. I understand fully why they end up on the wikia, but it does get silly at times when Nami can be seen in a chapter to pretty uch save their bacon that something like that happens. Yet the only image that is uploaded for her in regardiance ot the latest chapter is a image of her sitting in a bath; which the same action has only appeared about several times now that I know of. Lets see... Its in the Logue town novel, there is a colour spread of her and Robin, Alabasta, Thriller Bark, After aquirin the Thousand sunny we saw her leave the bath... There was a merch related to it too of some sort. Yeah... I think we can do better" ^_^' One-Winged Hawk 10:11, January 26, 2012 (UTC)

Well thats all the straw hats sorted. One group down + Kuma... Now for the others. I think Brook's page needs a second opinion since the ratio of text Vs images still feels unbalanced but I'll leave that to another editor. Tomorrow I go through Marines. :-/ One-Winged Hawk 00:05, January 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * Wow... for now I'll say good work, I usually try to update LQ pics and keep in order the file's informations. I'll try to help you too, but I can't do it right now.

Discussion
Thinking of adding a "case scenario" section to deal with this kind of thing on the page. It won't be guidelines, but focus on some ol issues. Here is what I have so far;

Some case scenario examples this won't be a part of Image Guidelines, but I'll think about using them for a extra page attached to IG showing some examples of how we apply the rules;

Uploading for pleasure or Busiess?
 * 1) There is a page with no images at all on it. You add one to the page to brighten the page up. Was this okay?
 * 2) We don't use images for decoration, we use them for demostrational reasons only. However, adding images does make a page easier to read and if you wisht o add a image on a page without one, its fine so long as it support the text that it is linked with. Also, note that while a page should be able to exist without the need of images, sometimes this just isn't possible and things like schematics enhance the understanding of an image.
 * 3) Nami is featuring bathing in the latest chapter and a image is uploaded showing this onto the wikia. This is well within the rules of the wikia, but when you read the chapter you notice that Nami saves the Thousand Sunny from disaster and you feel this is a better image to relate to what Nami did this chapter. What should you do?
 * 4) In this case, you are fine with removing the image and replacing it with a more useful image. It is quite common for this to happen and editors are asked to take better judgement on what is useful to a wikai.
 * 5) Someone uploads a image of Robin in a swimsuit and puts it on their blog. You remove it without explaination even though the image links off site to a image host. When asked why, you say you feel it degrades Robin and has no right to show the female figure in such manner. What should you do?
 * 6) In this case, you had no reason to take down the image without explaination, the image is stored on the users own public space and not in the wikias articles and removing a image because you yourself do not like it is not a grounds for removing the image. In cases of offical images, if your uploading just for your own personel interests, then it is better to upload it to a host if it is not going to be used to enhance the wikia articles. In the case of fanart, it will be up to debate to decide if it over steps the line and breaks the rules of the image guidelines.
 * 7) Oda releases a illustration of Hancock naked and someone uploads it. You take the image and put up a new censored version covering parts of her body. Was this the right thing to do?
 * 8) If its an offical source, then its fine, there is no need for censorship on offical images as they are produced to suit a particular audience. This wikia suits the needs of the One Piece fandom and therefore will be expected to cover all areas of interest related to the fandom in regards to the offical source material.
 * 9) You just saw Lola for the first time after the 2 year timeskip, you upload a image of her and stick it in the history section. Was this fine?
 * 10) It might have been better in "appearances" but this is okay to upload to the "history" section.
 * 11) There is a image of Nami fighting Miss Doublefinger at the start of the fight and you add another to show her defeat. Someone removes it and you argue that there is nothing within the rules to say that both can't stay. The other editor complains there is no space for the image there. Who is right, you or your fellow editor?
 * 12) You are both right, there is no grounds for removal of images based on the fact another already exists of a different part of the same event. However, we do regulate images as the wikia is bound by copyright laws. The more images the wikia hosts, the harder it is to explain how the many images all obey the GNU freeuse laws. Therefore, either the image of the start of the fight or the end will satisfy the supporting text; there is no need for both and removal of one on the grounds of space consumption is not a breakage of the rules.
 * 13) The latest chapter comes out and you rush to add a image to the "history" section even though a image was added last chapter. So this is also fine too?
 * 14) In this case things might favor against you. True it doesn't hurt to have a image of the same scenario, however, there is no need to add a image for every chapter. Compare both the image already up and the image you wish to add. Sometimes the new mage can exist in place of the old, but rarely there is a call for a image for every chapter on certain pages such as character pages.

I'll stopp there, its taking too much headach to come up with these in a hurry. I don't know what everyone thinks of this idea. I'm trying to come up with a way to help others regulate without updating the rules once again. Some of the things I'm seeing are just a case of the uploader didn't think about it. :-/ One-Winged Hawk 16:01, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this will work Angel, what can be considered decoration for some might be important to others. If the related paragraph is about Nami in the bath, then the picture of her in the bathroom is perfectly fine. It would support the text. But these matters will always require individual discussion on the talkpage, and thats why I doubt that we can formulate general rules here. Your example with Nami saving the Sunny, for example, isn't necessarily more important than Nami bathing. Take last chapter, the scene of her in the shower lead to a couple of incidents. It was important to the plot, and maybe noteworthy to illustrate (Nami using her Clima tact for out of combat purposes etc).

But I agree that some articles have an immense amount of pictures. I would suggest that we agree on a set amount of images per paragraph (or lines of text). This would limit the amount of pictures used (and more important, force us to reflect on what is important and what not). 01:03, January 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * I disagree, not with the Nami bath thing, but really if Nami DOES something in important in a chapter this is more important to have an image up then something like "Nami in a bath", which was just a few frames, whereas the other events took up more frames and thus were more dominating events in the chapter. This issue came up in the past for "group poses" as well during the Impel Down arc, but never discussed.  I'm not denying images are not useful at all, but really the editors seem to put up the prettiest image they find and not question how useful it is the text.  I admit though, I'm relly not sure how to handle this at all due to the case scenario for each picture needed for supporting text.  Plus... Its really hard to read a block of text without at least one image, I'm not denying that since it was proven in practice academically.  I wish I knew where that article went to I read years ago which had a case study on it.  >_<' One-Winged Hawk 21:46, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

Pictures are really important for an article actually.. It really helps new people remember the scene or the place it happened. Unless is like an expression of a character, which is really unnecessary.

Most of other wikis have tons of pictures, which is really helpfull.


 * At one stage the Harry Potter wikia was often put down for its extensive galleries and the wikia staff were cautious about it. These days they seem less interested in this matter, but doesn't mean the issue isn't there.  Images carry value, yes, but too many can be worst then not enough.  I'm not going to argue this point though, as said before, the more images you have the more you have to explain the use of so many copyrighted material.  This was the onyl practice really carried over from wikipedia that was acceptable to do and is still a legit argyument even now. What with those bloody annoying acts being discussed in America right now.  SOPA's passed, whats the current one?  >_<' One-Winged Hawk 21:46, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

Ah... We seem to have two related discussions now going on now, I'll split them. No one really seems that interested so far anyway. I often find this with most minor uses over images. Makes these type of thing really hard to discuss and consider. Its only major image issues that grab attention. :-/ One-Winged Hawk 22:01, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

Dicussion 1; plot point values?
Still part of the previous discussion, I'm cutting this off to discuss one important part of the previous discussion I want to expand on. Okay lets focus on the bath thing since its the most current and important argument. Jinbe raised a point that was owed to this that the plot of the latest chaptered occured. However, the point I made is that it literally took only a few frames up, whereas her saving their asses when they messed u her absence actually consumed more frames.

Really, the history section images should be in-line the most important event that happened in the text their supporting, for example, I'm not denying a image of Ace's death isn't a good image to support Ace's death text since its something thats really hard to show in text.However, as I mentioned about how Impel Down had a lot of "group poses" which had little to support the text except look good. I think this is pretty much where a image goes from demostration to decoration... ^_- One-Winged Hawk 22:01, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

Only big events, like Ace's death as you said.. Like the ones that can't be described in words.. Or the way a character was defeated.. But for the protagonists of the series(Straw Hats), it's good to have lots of pictures. The way the wiki works with pictures is fine, but more could be added(without being deleted)..


 * I slightly disagree with that the protagonists being treated like that because its significantly easier to find images on them naturally so the wikia isn't achievng anything by doing that, you don't tend to get that with lesser impiortant characters. One-Winged Hawk 12:00, January 31, 2012 (UTC)

Dicussion 2; when is it too much?
Okay I'm not denying images are not useful, but we have a secondary issue of how many images per page? I think everyone agrees "as many as needed" ncluding myself, but we have the problem of cramming images into text spaces. In some cases I had to clear up layoput issues -> which our Image Guidelines advise are something to avoid <- and in the most extreme cases two images are placed related to the exact event next to each other. This is of course rare.

Images are proven to help read articles. So I sort of agree with adding them altogether to any page regardless. One-Winged Hawk 22:01, January 30, 2012 (UTC)