Forum:Inactive Administrators and Bureaucrats

Problem
As you can see after you look at the Special:WikiActivity for days, weeks, even months. You will notice that there are only 3 bureaucrats that usualy edit and work on the articles from this wiki.

Those are User:DancePowderer, User:Yatanogarasu and User:MasterDeva.

We have Special:ListUsers/sysop 8 administrators and 6 of them are bureaucrats.

As it can be seen here in the statistics for most main edits, there are bureaucrats that haven't edited an article for a long while. Examples are User:Mugiwara Franky who already said well enough that he will not be active here anymore and won't edit. So his rights as a sysop should have been taken away a long while ago.

User:Justyn has very very few edits. And hasn't edited on this wiki ever since the year 2008! I wonder why is he still a bureaucrat as well. He has done nothing for the last 3 years!

User:BattleFranky202 has not edited an article for 88 days. Even if he logged in 9 days ago. Not editing an article, which should be one of the most important responsibilities for a bureaucrat is not being done.

I understand the case about kazuya since he/she is the founder of this wiki. I'm not sure if it is even possible to strip him/her of his/her rights.

All of the users named don't seem to have done their job well enough to deserve their rights as bureaucrats on this wiki so I believe we should replace them with others. {C

Discussion
Well said.

Yeah, totally agree.. Admins should be active and participate at everything.. It seems that only those 3 are active.. And before that MasterDeva was inactive, so it was only 2 admins.. The others are really inactive.

I agree. The inactive administrators should be stripped of their title and give it to more deserving people. Maybe some of the reason against it is if the users come back. You can't be inactive for that many days and expect to still be an admin. There are several people who are quite dedicated to this wiki and deserve to have their hard work rewarded.Dmurray1031 22:04, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Nothing like a good nonissue, is there? I really don't see why this is a problem. The way I see it, someone should only be stripped of adminship if they do something to deliberately harm the wiki, and none of them have done that. Then again, now that something as completely harmless as this has been brought to the light, you guys will probably start crowing for something to be done about it. How does finding this out affect your activity on the wiki as opposed to before you knew?Ask yourselves, what are those people doing to the wiki that they deserve to be stripped (note that I used present tense)? And being inactive isn't a good enough reason. Just think, if this were brought up maybe only a month or two ago, Deva would be out of a job the way you guys are talking. This issue was harmless, and now that one person decided to have a problem with it, that just creates more problems. 22:43, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah.. I mean.. If it isnt a good reason to take the admin postion from a user that havent edited since 2008 then what is? I dont actually have a huge problem about it, but now that is on the table I should bring my opinion..

There is nothing wrong with them. The wiki needs active admins, so if the active ones are too few, we nominate new ones, but the inactive admins (who are the same of inactive users) still remain trustworthy, if they will come back (like Deva) they'll continue to provide their help like they did in the past, nothing more. Stripping the admin rights should be done only when the users become untrustworthy or goes against the wiki's good. I understand your logic, but it's not a problem as it seems, this happen on other wikis as well. Moreover there is one problem in doing what you ask, you can't demote a bureaucrat, only Wikia' Staff can do that.

I see. And the fact that you can strip the position of an admin is basically out of the list, cause they only have to vandalize to get their position off, and not if they are not paying attention to this wiki at all..

Just to be clear, you cannot demote a bureaucrat but an "admin only" can be demoted by a bureaucrat like DP.

Here's an idea: let's ask these inactive admins to see if they want to return to help edit anymore. If not (or if they remain silent) then we remove their admin status. 02:05, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good..

Then let's ask, and if we don't receive a respond in 7 days (or some other timelimit that you guys want), then we remove them and give their positions to some other editors: that would lead to a new forum opening for voting and debating.
 * As a suggestion for the future, if an admin decides to be inactive for an extended period of time (like 2-3 months) and still wishes to maintain their status, they should put a notification on their user page beforehand. Does it sound good? 02:17, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

It's the right thing to do, yeah nice.

Set the timelimit at a month but in the meantime I think Two More ADMINS should be approved can someone possibly make a nomination section. If so my votes go to LPK and Levithan Tuckyd 02:41, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

The month is fine. But this isn't about looking for new admins. This has to do with the admins who haven't been active for some time. 03:12, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

As DP said, this is not about getting new admins. This wiki already has enough admins. It is true that those listed about in the list of In-Active Admins are little at fault but its not upto use to decide to give them a second chance or not, they deserve it for the contribution they have given to this wiki. They were the one who shaped this wiki to what it is now and we must appreciate their work. A month notice sounds fair and if they do not reply or say that they can't be active anymore then active admins will take action. Again, we don't need new admins. Monkey.D.Me 03:29, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

This sounds pretty good to me, if they don't want the position, or if they are never gonna use it, then they can forfeit their titles. As for current admins, they are doing a damn good job, so we dont really need any more right now.  PX15 | What's up? |3:32 12/Dec/2011 UTC

I fail to understand why we need to demote them...If the other admins decide that they need more help than we'd elect new admins, but demoting them for the sake of demoting them seems a bit pointless. 09:02, December 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Exact same thoughts as Panda.

Sounds reasonable.. Let Yata leave them a message though, and we'll see how it goes. If they dont answer then we'll see what to do..

Erm.. just gonna ask.. will it hurt the OP wiki if we have lots of admins..?? I mean if we need new admins .. just elect. We don't have to strip other users just to give their position to others. 12:55, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

I find it a little disturbing in myself to see that we have an admin that has fewer edits than most of the active users here. Two of the inactive admins left this wiki. I can call that betraying their position and running away from responsabilities. I see it this way: In a bussiness, if you do nothing, you get fired or get lower in position. They have become admins for editing and doing something on the wiki and they don't do it while others work their ass off. Its unfair, truly unfair to see this kind of thing. An admin working really hard at editing and one does not, becomes inactive and still has the same rights! Are you so lazy to demote them. Not for the sake of demoting, but for showing that an admin on this wiki edits and has some standards. I don't see how admins such as Mugiwara Franky will come back to edit. As you can see in my link about the sysop list, Battle Franky logged in just yesterday! But I see that he has done nothing in regard to what his responsabilites as an admin are.


 * Log in, means log in Wikia's network, so he could just be logged in another wiki or just come to take a look (through cookies Wikia will remember you if you don't log out, so if he visited any wiki under Wikia, it will results as a "log in"). For what I know he moved to One Piece Wikki. The admins with few edits are probably those at the early days of the wiki. If the main problem is having them in the list of admins, then we can simply categorize users, many wikis do that, like make a category for the active admins and one for non-active users, this way it's easy to find an admin for new users.

Rici, you're acting like they're committing some kind of crime by not showing up. There is no obligation here. They are allowed to work for a bit and then leave. People have lives, things change. There is nothing wrong with keeping them there. Anyone who can read will clearly see that they are inactive due to their last login and edit dates. Sometimes they leave and come back. Sometimes they don't. It's not something to make a huge deal about. I think we really don't need to delve into this any further, since I still see no overarching issue here. 16:28, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

Its my way of seeing against yours. So I don't think I will be able to change your opinion. Yata said that he'll send them a message asking if they still wanna be admins. I just told you my opinion and Levi, if it comes to them keeping their rights. I think we should really do such a thing. Even now, it is a great idea.

I get that they aren't harming us at all, but the fact of the matter is, if they aren't coming back, then do they really need their positions? Think of it as a clean up or an update, and not like firing people. Like we said before, we will ask them what they want, and if they don't respond or don't care, we will remove their admin rights. I don't really see how this is a big deal anyways.  PX15 | What's up? |16:55 12/Dec/2011 UTC

Well there is no real point in mantaining them or removing them! It's all about their opinion anyways. Yata is going to send them a message if they don't want to remain then we strip them if they wan't to remain then we atleast should ask them to contribute more if they don't! Let's wait yata's response

The amount of edits isn't the only thing admins are judged on, and even if they were then the one with the most edits on this wiki is still MF, who also is an admin...anyways i agree with Panda, I see no use for demoting them and I believe we should just leave the admin status as some kind of honorific title. (It doesn't hurt to leave it, does it?)

Hey, here is a link for the wikipedia admin definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators I know this may not be how our wiki operates, but it says that admins must lead by example and fulfill their administrative duties. While I appreciate the service they have given, these unactive admins are no longer doing this in my opinion. Just a thought.  PX15 | What's up? |17:06 12/Dec/2011 UTC

The thing is there is nothing wrong with having those admins, even if they are inactive, maybe we can demote some (like Justyn...?) but not the ones who have contributed on this wiki to make the wiki as big as it is today. As I said, we should leave at least some of them as a honorific title. (btw PX, you should make your signature into a template, since it's a bit confusing on the source mode)

Wikipedia is not Wikia so that definition isn't valid. SeaTerror 17:47, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

So we are talkin about 2 admins.. Justyn and BattleFranky.. Justyn is a bureaucrat... While the matter is still hot I would like to remind you all that We are not doing this to get new admins. As Nan-ch asked about if having many admins can harm the wiki? Yes, it can in my opinion. This wiki has being doing great with the number of admins it had. DP and Deva been constant active and kept wiki in order. I do not care what happens to the in-active members and if they want to come back or not cause our wiki already has admins who can hold on their own. I understand how everyone feel that a person who has less edits and contribution then them has higher position and is been in-active for so long. You have every right to be angry but they also have their right to keep their position. Put yourself in their shoes and understand their sitution. Monkey.D.Me 18:54, December 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * I get what DP is saying, like they didnt do anything 'bad' to strip their position.. But it doesnt hurt really if we actually sent them a message to see if they are gonna return. Leave Yata sent them messages and then we'll see whats going on..
 * About the fact that they may be active and dont edit at all shows that they dont care about this wiki anymore, and want to just keep that position for ever. BattleFranky was asked by Yazzy back in September if he wants to keep the sysop position and he said 'yes, im active now'.. His last edit is back at Semtember..

Damn sig, gotta fix that stupid thing......anyways, I don't really care about edits or anything, these people are no longer fulfilling their obligations as admins, no matter what type of wiki or wikipedia we are.  PX15 | What's up? |19:40 12/Dec/2011 UTC

Discussion 2
I'm bringing this up, because this is an issue that need to be resolved.

We have 8 admins. 6 of them are not active, or ignoring this wiki. We have only two active admins. That had been the way for almost an entire year. User:Mugiwara Franky stated that he will not be editing on here anymore, and moved to his own One Piece wikkii. User:YazzyDream is active on other wikis, such as this wiki. User:MasterDeva edit on here just once, every few months, but do not do his responsibilities as an admin. User:BattleFranky202 never come on this wiki. He do check this wiki, although not often.

We have let them be inactive for too long. I believe that this is the time to decide whether to strip all of the inactive admins of their rights or let them keep their rights.

I also have a suggestion, we can give them two weeks to a month to come back and start taking up their responsibilities as admins, as they should be doing, and if they do not come back within the time limit, we strip them of their rights.

Thoughts on this? 22:37, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Well... This matter again... It has no use to deadmin them, but leaving them also has no use at all. So it's all about preferences. Personaly I think they once deserved their title, so to deadmin them just seems a bit unrespectful to me. But once again, this is a matter of preferences.

I agree with Jade. If they do not follow through on their responsibilities as admins, they shouldn't be admins. Nobody's banning them from editing here, so it's not a huge deal to remove privileges that they clearly don't use, or in some cases clearly do not want. Admins should be around to help out, and if they aren't helping, they shouldn't be admins.

Also, Jade left out the Founder of the wiki who seemed to have a falling out with many of the first users here, and left to edit other websites (Links from his edits to his own page are inactive). All 12 of his edits are solely to user pages, and he is obviously not coming back to help in any way.

From reading the rest of this forum, I've seen the argument "It doesn't hurt to have them as admins" brought up a lot. But, since these users have gone inactive, the rules of the site have changed, and they could potentially come back and make admin-level edits that are harmful by our current standards. Especially if they come back randomly with no notice and just begin editing.

While I do think it's wrong of the admins to be inactive, I think we should also be a bit forgiving in how we remove their power. If we remove their powers, and then in a year, they come back requesting their admin powers back, their should be a process to do so. If they assure us that they have read the rules of the wikia again (in order to check for ones they've forgotten or have changed) and then make a couple hundred edits to prove they are serious about returning, we should give them their powers back. We shouldn't need to re-elect or talk to them in a forum as long as they can prove to the other admins that they are back to help for real.

Also, if somehow the other admins are reading this, I just want to ask them: "Do you honestly expect to come back and help out? If not, you should consider just telling us that and letting us move on. Thanks" 23:13, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

THT, if they are no longer willing to help out with the wiki anymore, then they are no longer deserving of their sysop status. Imagine every molecule in your entire body spontaneously exploding at the speed of light (talk) 23:22, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with SomeDude. The admins might want to be admins again, so they should have the request to do so, provided they promise they can keep the title. Of course, we shouldn't revoke it before telling them. Let's message them, then give them at least 2 weeks to respond. No response, then their title gets revoked. If an admin has a problem with this, they should say something. You guys did great when you were active, but that's in the past now.

Also, I must say, Mugiwara isn't 112% inactive. There was a certain querral with a user a while ago (not saying any names), and he had to be a little active again to take care of it. Also, who doesn't remember when he proposed links to the Wikki here?

That's not to say he shouldn't be considered in our thought to revoke, though I know he's definetely going to respond. And since he works on a Wikki and not a Wikia, messaging him here won't be very effective, so we should message him on the Wikki. 23:42, October 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. For those users who do edit elsewhere, they should be contacted on places they actually edit. 23:43, October 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Nada, that is exactly what I suggested. Give the inactive admins a few weeks to come back (we leave a message on their wall first, of course), and if they do not come back, or reject the offer, then we can de-admin them. If they do come back within the time limit, they get to keep their rights. Just making it clear. 23:53, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with deadmin them. No offense or anything, but some admins haven't even come on or edited for such a long time. They'll still be recognize as previous admins, people will still remember them. In the previous discussion, I think some didn't even respond at all. They used to be good admins, and I respect them for that but I think they have moved on with their lives and aren't going to edit anymore. If they do, it's probably going to be once in a while or something along those lines. But shouldn't the message that they have to respond be a little longer? 00:40, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Hahahaha, apologies for shameless laugh on this serious forum >_> its just funny to see my everyday joke getting serious again ^_^ all thanks to Bump Queen Ming! Now for the forum, yea .. if they are inactive and are not willing or able to participate in this wiki'e activities .. we need to make some desperate decisions, But I don't much agree with demoting them >_> if in future they decide to come back and help this wiki further its safe to keep the possibility open. So .. demoting the old admins?, Nope but I am sure I can change my mind if faced with strong reasons. 03:36, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

We don't mean to disregard the past administrator's efforts by removing their status, as several users have voiced concern of elsewhere. It is just misleading to newer users or whoever is unfamiliar with this site to have seven administrators listed (eight including the bot) when only two of them are actually active.

If you had a boss or authoritative figure who did nothing at all, would they really be able to keep their position? No, they would be let go due to negligence. They received that position based on the belief they would do their duty and in the situation where they do not, they are then removed.

I'm not saying the old admins are purposely ignoring their site, I'm just saying they've moved on. As we should also do. None exercise their administrative authority here, and only one or two edit every few months. Removing their status will not stop them from contributing, it isn't like we're banning them.

Out of respect for their work however, I propose we introduce a "Former Administrator" template which honours their contributions to the site and recognises the time they put into our community when they were active. These could be placed on their profile or talk pages for anyone to see that we do indeed appreciate their work. 05:45, October 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * I kinda saw it as "if we were voting for new admins, we wouldn't exactly vote in someone who has been inactive or has three edits over the past four months, right?" Personally, I don't think we need to edit other people's user pages, even if they are gone, but if people feel that that is necessary, then go for it. 12:03, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Since we're discussing this now, should we notify YazzyDream, MasterDeva, BattleFranky202, and Mugiwara Franky? And how do we notify Mugiwara? By messaging him on the Wikki or the Wikia? 16:35, October 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * We should notify the admins in any way that we can. Their talks here, other wikias, email, or anything else we can find. I think it's important to make sure they get the message, so sending the same message 3 or 4 times can't be a bad thing.

Also who is going to send the messages, and when? I think they should be sent by another admin or at least a trusted user who has been here a long time and knows them. 18:11, October 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * I can notify all of them if you guys really want me to. I will contact them on any wiki they are active on. 19:37, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Well, that was surprisingly fast. Looks like most users agree that we should strip the inactive admins, if they do not come back within the time limit. For the users that don't want the admins to be stripped of their powers, if we follows Kuro's suggestion and make a template that says, "Former Admin", would you guys be fine with that? If not, please say so, as well as why. Thanks. 19:37, October 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * I say no to the Former Admin template. We don't edit user pages in the first place, and this is simply unnecessary. 01:40, October 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * We edit warned and banned users' pages, to add the vandal and banned templates. I don't see how this situation should be different (even though the actions and templates are completely different, that's not the point). We'll put the template in as a sign of honor. Think of it like a grave; a grave that will always be remembered. 02:39, October 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * I just find it slightly disrespectful to edit someone's talk page without their permission (and if they wanted to, they would probably just do it themselves). If you want to do that, I have no problems with it. We shouldn't make this a big deal with the forum. Just ask the admins who agree with having their admin rights removed if they want some kind of recognition. if they do, then we'll make one, and if they don't, then we don't have to do anything. 03:43, October 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Though what would we do if we don't hear back from the admin? 04:07, October 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Then you guys can go ahead and create the template, since public favor seems to be for it. 04:15, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Well, looks like most people support at least messaging the admins to notify them about losing their privileges. However, it is also important that we set up a time limit for any admins in the future who are gone for a long time. I think that one month is a reasonable amount for an admin to be gone without losing their privileges, but any more could result in revoking of admin rights. On both counts, I would like to see some more discussion before we move on with anything. 04:15, October 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Can we address this after we're done with the currently inactive admins? Sorry, but I just think it would be easier to do that in a separate forum once all the information from the outcome of this one is done with. I don't want this discussion to stray too far from it's purpose or else I fear nothing will be done again. 04:29, October 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Even though I think this applies to the topic at hand, I guess we should just tackle this one at a time. I got ahead of myself there. 04:37, October 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * It definitely does apply to this conversation, it's just that the conversation about how long it takes to de-admin someone will go easier once it's been decided that we actually can de-admin someone due to inactivity. That's just my belief though. 04:41, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

I don't really see a problem, it's just a formality... a massage on their profiles that tell the viewer he is inactive it should be enough. But I'm not against demoting them, it's just I don't see it as a problem, that's all.


 * That's fine. You're neutral and I understand that. However, the admins never let us know that they would be inactive, with the exception of MF. That, I got a problem with. Also, even if they announced that they would be absent, I have a problem with them being away for too long. Obviously, they moved on with their life. And like Kuro said, we should move on, not clinging on to the past. 20:38, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Bump. We need to discuss this.

Look like most of the users here agree with me, on giving the inactive admins a time limit to come back to here, or be stripped of their rights. Can we decide on how long the time limit will be now or do we have to make a poll to leave the admins alone or to give them a time limit to come back and if they do not come back, be stripped of their rights? 18:35, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

I say wait a month, then strip them of their rights. Obviously we're not going to wait to add new admins, but as of now we should just give it a month. Imagine every molecule in your entire body spontaneously exploding at the speed of light (talk) 18:38, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, inactive admins should have one month to do at least one admin-related edit, and after that, strip them of their status. Speaking of which, new admins (if and after we dismiss the old ones) should be ready to contribute periodically, or they are not fit for the position. 20:29, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

One month sound good, for the time limit for the current inactive admins to come back. Two weeks is too short, while two months is too long. So one month is the best, in my opinion.

However, what about future admins? Suppose they have to leave the wiki for longer than a month, due to family problems, surgery, etc, and tell us first? Also, what can we do with admins that leave this wiki suddenly, without any warning, for more than a month? We really need to tackle this issue, so we won't have to bring this to a forum the next time this happen. 21:05, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

I think that admins who leave after letting us know (as Yata did a few weeks ago) should be allowed. However, if they say they are going to be gone for one week, and then don't come back, we should remove their rights after one month. For future admins, if they go on a one-month break without any prior warning, they lose rights. For the current admins, two weeks seems like a long enough period to let them respond. 21:09, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

If anyone do have problems with stripping the inactive admins of their rights, then again, say so then I can open the poll to keep or strip the rights of the inactive admins, tomorrow. If no one have any problems, then, can we proceed on to the time limit? And afterwards, what we will do with inactive admins in the future? 21:50, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

So just to make the whole process clear: First, we're gonna have a poll about if we will strip the inactive admins of their status. Assuming we vote in favor of that, we will message the inactive admins in order to see if A) They even want their powers. and B) if they will actually return to active admin-level editing here. Then once all that's over with, we'll start a new forum about how what to do in the event of inactive admins in the future?

Is that all correct?

And I wish to state again that the founder should also be eligible to lose his admin rights as well, considering he's done less than most new users for the good of the site. He was an inconsiderate guy, who from what I can tell from posts that were on his page, banned User:Angel Emfrbl because she didn't like Dragon Ball Z. And as most of us know, Angel's done far more for this site than many of the admins we're talking about removing now. 22:22, October 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * I doubt we need a poll for this case. Only two people have expressed dissatisfaction with this issue, and I believe Levi said he was neutral. If public opinion seems this skewed, a poll would only complicate matters. 22:52, October 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * And would drag this whole process more out and more than it should. If the public opinion is clear then a poll is not necessary. 22:57, October 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * PX and IH made the points why I'm against making the poll. We already have an oh ever so glaringly obvious majority wanting to strip the rights of the inactive admins, with only two people against it. A poll would just delay the progress of the forum. 23:28, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, well if we skip the poll, the next step is to contact all the inactive admins. Who's gonna do that? And are we going ahead with removing the founder? 23:57, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Well, we don't need to make a poll? Good. And JSD, you're wrong. The next step is to decide on how long until the current admins have to come back. Which most likely requires a poll. And then afterwards, contact all of the inactive admins. I say remove the founder's rights, but other than that.... Well, nothing much. 00:00, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

Shouldn't we give a little longer for future inactive admins? I mean what if they have something sudden and can't tell the wiki. Like what if they are hospitalize suddenly and can't be online for more than a month? I'm just saying this because I know someone that was in the hospital nearest to me for more than a month and the only thing they were able to do was have watch TV, have visitors, pretty much anything not involving the internet. Yes, hospitals near where I live are very strict. I think we should give them at least two to three months. 00:15, October 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm planning to resolve that issue once we decide on the poll for the current inactive admins to come back. Then once we get that over with, we can tackle the issue for future inactive admins. Easier to deal with one issue at a time. But thanks for bringing that up! 00:20, October 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * What? I thought that was the sudden topic, since you guys were talking about. Oh well XD 00:25, October 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * Calu, if it was honestly something like an unexpected hospitalisation that lasted long enough for them to be considered inactive, then upon returning and explaining their situation then we'd surely return their status immediately. Do you really think we'd respond with, "Well, sucks that you were put in the emergency room and couldn't contact us but dem the rules."


 * No, exceptions can easily be made. Rules are rules yes, but we don't have to abide by them in such a black and white manner.  02:58, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

For the current admins, give them two weeks to reply. Some of them have been gone for months by now, so two weeks seems like a reasonable time. 02:31, October 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think 2 weeks is fair, ads long as we've tried to contact them in any and every way we can. If someone doesn't respond to 3 or 4 different messages in two weeks, what are the odds they would respond given 2 more weeks? I'm not entirely opposed to waiting a month, but I think the odds that the extra two weeks would matter would be slim. 02:53, October 14, 2012 (UTC)