Forum:Appearances, Bombs and Real World

Look I've been to Wookieepedia and I don't know how this will affect how One Piece Wiki works but could we do what they do with Appearances and Sources so we can build up pages with few to little references and source material pages can list more than Characters they can also list Creatures, Events, Locations, Organizations, Titles, Sentient species, Vehicles, Vessels, Weapons, Technology and Miscellanea.

After reading the recent chapter I think it is time to make a page on bombs seeing as there have been bombs from the beginning including suicide bombers like Hiluluk and Pedro or attempted suicide bombers like Dalton and that soldier from the Neptune Army (Chapter 631 (p. 8-9) Episode 551) we could use for the infobox the bomb seen with Mr. 7 and Miss Father's Day in the clock tower at the end of the Alabasta Saga.

Lastly the real world links like Wikipedia can be outdated and changed by outside sources, I think it would be best to make pages of there own like Eiichiro Oda and cover information outside of but still related to the series for the Cast and Staff of One Piece.--Rgilbert27 (talk) 14:27, September 11, 2017 (UTC)

Discussion
You should talk to an admin about this.

14:34, September 11, 2017 (UTC)

Where did you think I first went.--Rgilbert27 (talk) 14:48, September 11, 2017 (UTC)


 * Real world articles: I think real world articles / common pages are unnecessary unless there is something different about them in One Piece (or we need a more organized source of information complemented with One Piece-related stuff or we have named items. An example of that would be Sword, since there we also cover the meitos and their classifications). I don't see anything special about bombs in One Piece nor I think we have "named" bombs, so I don't see the purpose of such page.
 * Wikipedia articles: iirc the wiki once had the pages about the voice actors, but they were removed because they were the carbon copy of their Wikipedia counterparts and we concluded it was more efficient to just link them. You say "real world links like Wikipedia can be outdated and changed by outside sources", but I think it's the other way around, especially since we take the majority of information about them from Wikipedia anyway.

There are various One Piece media that don't have a united Appearances section. Episodes and specials‎ still use Characters in Order of Appearance, OVAs, movies and featurettes use cast and role, chapters and most one-shots list characters by the group there with and omake's, music (openings and endings‎ included‎) and merchandise (books and video games included‎) do not list appearances what so ever. Sources give information that's not present in the series like magazines (Shonen Jump included), volumes (SBS included), art books (animation books included), databooks and more. Appearances can not only build up in universe pages but also source pages as well. While references are important adding one sentence summaries like:

One Piece Manga and Anime — Vol. 51 Chapter 499 (p. 15-16) and Episode 393, A rather small, young-looking Bonney saves Zoro by faking his death.

can be confusing if the reference is incomplete or the summary came before a user completes a reference. A reference should be the nuts and bolts like:

One Piece Manga and Anime — Vol. 51 Chapter 499 (p. 15-16) and Episode 393

if not go further by adding seasons and pieces with links to both them and volumes and in time add panels and timestamps to the references close to:

One Piece Manga and Anime — Vol. 51 Chapter 499 (p. 15-16) Panels 6-9 and Season 11 Piece 3 Episode 393

at least something close to that.

Bombs have been around as Romance Dawn when Higuma used a smoke bomb, there are not only bombs that explode there are ones that use smoke or poison as well. There are also the bomb collars used by the World Nobles, there are plenty of appearances by bombs if you know where to look.

What I meant more or less was the cast and staff like editors, assistants (manga), animation directors,‎ art directors,‎ directors, screenwriters, storyboarders‎, voice actors (anime) and artists (music). Wikipedia, IMDb and Anime News Network are not always up to date and not protected by One Piece Wikia. They are also not always mention in foreign publications and some to most work together in other projects as well. It would be better if they were given there own pages if only for the credits.

Well this is all I could think of for this forum at this time, hopefully this will help make this wikia better. All the luck--Rgilbert27 (talk) 22:22, September 12, 2017 (UTC)

I don't think having summaries in citations is really an issue as long as the citation is filled out. The way we do citations is through a template that lets us fill in everything at once, so cutting out the summary wouldn't help anything. Adding things like panel numbers and set numbers would be confusing because not everyone would be able to figure out which panel is which and the piece numbers are exclusive to Japan, so they would most likely be more confusing to people outside of Japan (which is just about everyone here).

Adding info for every single staff member who worked on the manga or anime would be excessive and I don't think it would add much. Short of digging through Japanese sources (and almost none of us speak Japanese), there's nothing we could add that isn't already covered better on Wikipedia or ANN. Besides, the sheer number of staff who have worked on One Piece over the years is staggering, and creating a page for every single person would take forever and most of them would be stubs. Looking at animation directors alone, OP has had over 30 different people in the roll, and listing every one of them wouldn't be feasible for us since there aren't a lot of English sources with enough info on them to fill out a full article. It's better to just link to Wikipedia or ANN, since those are where we would get the info anyway. 01:44, September 13, 2017 (UTC)


 * There is no reason for Appearances since main characters like Luffy will have a longer appearances list then most of their page.
 * I do not understand what is the problem with the sources. All you gave examples for are references.
 * My policy on new page is make then first, then discuss for it's usage in that talk page. Personally I'm not against a page that collect all of those things, but I think we need to call it "Explosive", and if you want to include smoke and poison it can be a subsection on that page. "Bomb" does not cover dynamite or grenades.
 * I do not see a reason not to have a wiki page for some of the professions you mention, especially since some episodes are categorized by their writers, art directors, and animators but it will have to be a very simple page, I'm thinking maybe just a list with everyone by their title, and each name can then be linked to outside sources. Maybe a link to their category if they have one, or their wiki page (for the sole case of Eiichiro Oda. As for the manga editors, I do not think IMDB keep track on them so we'll have to find another source for that.

Lastly, having a discussion (be it in a forum or a talk page) on more then one subject can be problematic and confusing. Someone might not have an opinion on one subject but not another and the discussion about the later would either be stopped or ignored until addressed again. Maybe we can continue each discussion on a separate subtitle on this forum? Rhavkin (talk) 05:28, September 13, 2017 (UTC)

Was an "Explosive" page made? Can someone link it? Rhavkin (talk) 04:55, November 11, 2017 (UTC)

@Rgilbert27 About bombs, again, you just keep mentioning that they have been around since the beginning, but so have shoes, that doesn't make them special. The only particular bomb we have see so far is the bomb collar, but technically it's not even a type of bomb, it's just an object rigged with a common bomb. We currently cover it on Slavery but it could have its own page, it's the same.

After reading the recent chapter I think it is time to make a page on bombs seeing as there have been bombs from the beginning including suicide bombers like Hiluluk and Pedro or attempted suicide bombers like Dalton and that soldier from the Neptune Army (Chapter 631 (p. 8-9) Episode 551) we could use for the infobox the bomb seen with Mr. 7 and Miss Father's Day in the clock tower at the end of the Alabasta Saga.

Bombs have been around as Romance Dawn when Higuma used a smoke bomb, there are not only bombs that explode there are ones that use smoke or poison as well. There are also the bomb collars used by the World Nobles, there are plenty of appearances by bombs if you know where to look.

How is that a content page exactly? I think you meant to post this in this forum instead, since you even start by saying your personal thoughts. And I'd like to stress again, so far I don't see anything particular noteworthy about bombs. Gas bombs and normal bombs are just the same as the real world, the only thing a bit particular about them is they come in a lot of shapes, dimension and power. But that's it. Maybe we could simply make a section on Firearm instead?

Okay. A page was created, and I gave it a remodel to make it an actual page. Whether or not it should be kept is another thing. Currently I can't reference anything due to life, so please don't use that as a reason, it is temporary. I think we need to move the discussion the the page talk page and starting now focus on Rgilbert27's other notion of real life staff page. Rhavkin (talk) 14:13, November 11, 2017 (UTC)

I think the page should be kept. 14:18, November 11, 2017 (UTC)

Well whatever, keep it as a list and let's move on. However I don't think the tamatebako or the pamu pamu should be on that list, since they might be related but not actual explosives.

I'm fine with the page, but we can't let this poor page creation become a habit. If you're going to make a page, do it right. This goes for a lot of our newer users (Rgilbert27, the guy who made pages like One Piece Water Battle and stuff, etc.).

The page in its current form needs a lot of work. As for appearances, I'm neutral. I'm not sure they are necessary, but they certainly wouldn't detract from pages. As for Real World stuff, I think that's more of a 'case-to-case basis' issue. We have plenty of 'real world' pages, but I'm not sure how far we want to get into it. I'm sure those pages wouldn't be popular unless they contained a lot of One Piece-focused info. 19:58, November 11, 2017 (UTC)

I'll move the explosive page discussion to its talk page and it can continue there.Rhavkin (talk) 10:53, November 13, 2017 (UTC)

Explosive is fine now. Appearances and real world pages were majoritly declined. closing? Rhavkin (talk) 06:08, November 29, 2017 (UTC)

Should we create a litery device pages now? I would also like to re-create some pages that has been deleted such as death, archetypes and many others

Joekido (talk) 06:35, November 29, 2017 (UTC)

The Eleven Supernovas was the chapter always was also Rhavkin Appearances are a section of pages as mentioned above and real world pages can be lists like Animal Species or Foods and Beverages with scroll boxes attached that list credits for the various media they've worked on. Appearances and real world pages have a place here we just have to work it out.--Rgilbert27 (talk) 07:16, November 29, 2017 (UTC)

You're mixing forums again. I understand what appearances sections and real world pages are, I'm just saying that in this discussion about them they were majoritly declined so I don't see way this is still an Active Discussion. Rhavkin (talk) 07:23, November 29, 2017 (UTC)

Still the suggestion for real world pages is a valid one and Appearances is already part way there besides Characters Appearances can help settle a lot confusion when it comes to referencing info.--Rgilbert27 (talk) 08:07, November 29, 2017 (UTC)

A valid suggestion that was majoritly declined. What referencing confusion are you talking about? Rhavkin (talk) 08:13, November 29, 2017 (UTC)

I'm still not going to give up on this and the confusion you speak of is what I left in that other forum you mentioned Appearances would more than help with that problem.--Rgilbert27 (talk) 09:02, November 29, 2017 (UTC)

Well the Appearances in the Wookieepedia you refereed to list the media in which the character or whatever was shown. The other forum is about the debut, not the media. No one saying you should give up but know that at this time it does not seem to be happening. I still don't see what confusion you talked about. Rhavkin (talk) 09:10, November 29, 2017 (UTC)

The media helps establish debut which this wiki is having trouble with as you pointed out.--Rgilbert27 (talk) 09:35, November 29, 2017 (UTC)

I was talking about organization debut, not characters. And how does knowing the media helps debut? Rhavkin (talk) 10:07, November 29, 2017 (UTC)

If you look at the beginning of this forum Appearances does not just cover Characters and said media would list said debut with Appearances.--Rgilbert27 (talk) 10:22, November 29, 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I still don't see the actual problem you say it will solve. Rhavkin (talk) 10:30, November 29, 2017 (UTC)

Appearances would list the debut in the media page/s it appears in and said Organization's Appearances section would list the first mention and/or debut of said Organization that's the problem it would solve.--Rgilbert27 (talk) 19:46, November 29, 2017 (UTC)

So Appearances would only replace the debuts? How would a different section is better then a single line in the infobox? How would a diffrent place solve any problem of "when was the debut"? When, other then what I talked about in the other forum, has there been a problem with debuts? Rhavkin (talk) 20:03, November 29, 2017 (UTC)

It's not just manga and anime that people will be interested in Appearances and Sources can list other debuts that are left out of one line for examples see my entry on September 12, as for other problems shadowed or incomplete images, mentions even allusions to people, places and things can be pushed back to referencing and would be years before the reference is put up such as Tom or the debut of the World Government Appearances are needed to get these facts straight.--Rgilbert27 (talk) 20:55, November 29, 2017 (UTC)

I still don't understand the problem you're trying to solve. Rhavkin (talk) 08:51, November 30, 2017 (UTC)

The is the problem with only incomplete references to rely on people can be confused as to when the first time for any number of subject debut, mention or allusion to the matter at hand Tom's mention was not put up before November 2 and the World Government did not debut in Chapter 398 with Appearances problems like that can be cleared so please Rhavkin and Administrators understand how Appearances can make a world of difference.--Rgilbert27 (talk) 11:08, November 30, 2017 (UTC)

I think people don't understand what you're trying to say, myself included. Do you want a list of all the content someone or something has appeared in? Because a well-written article already included all of those sources (any manga, anime, and movies appearances, a list of video games, and trivia or details from databooks). We don't need to restate what we already have. If your issue is with things that are not references or mentioned, just add it to the article. So what if Tom's first mention wasn't referenced until recently? We have a ton of articles that are not properly referenced. Better to just add the references than a whole new section. Also, like Rhavkin said, there is a majority against it. 15:09, November 30, 2017 (UTC)

Let's try again. Recently, I edited the Revolutionary Army page, and when I got to the Dressrosa Arc section, I needed to look for Sabo's actions like his fight with Issho. The fight was featured in chapters 750-752, 757, and 760, but chapter 752 is not referenced because nothing of importance has happened. The same can be said for Sabo's appearance in chapter 781, where you only see him running across town during Doflamingo's speech. Basically, the point is that even if there will be an appearance section, it will be crowded and confusing maybe even more then now.

Having said that, when I went though the chapter for the references, I know that it wouldn't be smart to re-read every chapter of the arc, so what I did was i looked at the chapters pages, and looked in the characters table where a revolutionist appeared and only looked at that chapters. The problems was, A. As I said above, was that not every appearance is note worthy, and B. While it significantly decreased the number of webpages I opened, It still could be fewer.

What I would suggest if the wiki decide to include something of that sort, is a template like this, Thou I don't know what the protocol of copying a template from other wikia if there is any. Rhavkin (talk) 09:09, December 3, 2017 (UTC)

I also don't understand the appearance problem, at first I thought you were suggesting listing all the appearance on the character page, but the template you are linking is meant to add a "navigation" so someone can "jump" to chapter/pages and "follow" a character. I believe that would be really bothersome to implement not to mention to maintain (for every character "re-appearance" you have to go back and update the template). Not to mention that seems more useful to us editors rather then the average reader.

At this point, a complete appearance list seems more feasible. I myself tried to make a template that automatically list all the chapter/episode appearances of a given character (you can see a draft here, however I still have to add "navigation links" to scroll the list). The idea was to use DPL to list every chapter/episode that was linking a page, that way we would automatically get a complete appearance list of a given character. There is a catch, however, that is it's based on the assumption that someone is linked on a chapter/episode pages because they appeared there. So if we want to avoid false positive, the best way would be to move the appearance table to a template page so we can be sure that all links are from appearance. However you can see that would be quite bothersome and that's why I abandoned the idea.

First of all, no matter what we decide to do, except doing nothing, would be troublesome because it would mean edit a very large amount of pages: sections=edit character pages, Apn=chapters pages (and maybe episodes). The template I like, in case you missed it, automatically list the previews and next chapters as previews and next appearance, unless stated otherwise, and I would like to further suggest to not include non cover story appearances (to not list an appearance on a cover as an appearance unless it's a cover story), to only include canon, current appearance. Either way, if we templatize characters table, couldn't we make the next appearance automatic as well? I don't really know how to make this type of template from scratch so using an existing template from another wiki might help. Rhavkin (talk) 09:44, December 3, 2017 (UTC)

Real world and appearances rejected by majority. Discussion has been over for ages, closing this. 15:48, April 12, 2018 (UTC)