Forum:Manga/Anime Switch

In the past few months, I've noticed we've had issues with picking when an infobox picture should become manga or anime. Sometimes, the quality of the anime is bad, and we have to wait for an acceptable image to replace the manga. Sometimes people fight over which one is better, when they are pretty much equal sometimes. I believe this can be fixed by using the switch template in a new way. If you look here, you'll see how the Catalan wiki uses it, and it's actually quite efficient. Then you can check a page like this to see it without the timeskip options. I believe this will help calm the issue of anime vs. manga in the infoboxes, and make things better overall.

Discuss below. 04:57, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
It seems worth trying out, but couldn't someone argue that it would just be making something overly complicated? 05:07, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

Well yeah. But it's overall better in the long run, because people aren't edit warring over such a silly issue. 05:10, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

I'm all for this idea, I've seen it used on several other wiki as well. As for deciding on a new image (whenever the need arises) we could implement a short voting system similar to what we use on the Bleach Wiki.

Yes it may take longer to decide, but once a decision is made there should be no argument against the infobox image used (which is something we seem to encounter much too often). 05:59, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

We shouldn't be using the tabber extension though. It's buggy and ugly. I suggest one switch and remove the pre/post-skip completely since it's utterly useless and annoying anyway and is barely followed.

It's for articles that need it Sewil. People that look different after the timeskip. Although, I'd rather go for most recent appearance, and put past appearances in the gallery.. 06:20, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

If we have the tabs, let's make the colors easier to notice. The colors that that Wiki has now, I can hardly tell what tab it's on. 06:44, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

That's the thing about tabber. You can't change its colors. You can only decide stuff like height before scroll and statements like if it's going to have a border or not. Believe me, I've tried. I even went in to the inspect element to find out the exact CSS classes it used, but it didn't work even then.

Is it just the background, or is it the lettering too? 07:00, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

I think you can change the background for only the active tab, but I don't fully remember, you'd have to test it out for yourself. But the one you see on the Català One Piece is the default style but with a removed border.

I don't support it at all. The manga images already exist under most images uploaded already when replaced by the anime version. If needed they can go into the gallery. There is no actual need for the switch. It will clutter up the infobox and add extra unneeded coding to the articles. SeaTerror (talk) 18:01, January 1, 2013 (UTC)

If you remember the pre/postimeskip infobox picture forum, these solutions were proposed already, so we are technically talking about something we already decided (just so you know). Anyway, at least we can do it using just a switch template, like I did in the examples in that forum. In the beginning, I was in favour of using a manga/anime switch rather then a pre/posttimeskip switch, because I don't see why we should keep the first character appearance in the infobox at all costs, so if we revamp the old forum topic, I prefer convert the switches in anime/manga and leave the pretimeskip images in the gallery. However, like ST said, there is the fundamental point which is we do have galleries to gather all kinds of appearance images, so we should also talk if the switch is really necessary because actually it looks like some kind of compromise to solve edit wars at this point rather than a necessity.

Nah. It's a necessity Levi. Stopping edit wars is what makes it needed. The manga is the original work, and belongs in the infobox, along with the anime image. I support getting rid of the pre timeskip option though, because that can just go in the gallery. 03:43, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

I really don't see the point of having this. From what I can tell, it would do nothing but clog up the image section. If this is being done purely to stop edit wars, then I say no. There's a handy thing called the talk page that we can use to prevent these things from happening. 03:51, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

It's not clogging up anything PX. It's so that we have consistency on all the articles. Like I said, the manga does not belong in the gallery, due to being the SOURCE MATERIAL. If we're going to stick the anime in the infobox, then why not the manga too? 03:53, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

Because it adds tabs that we don't need. And we have never had any problems with making the anime appearance standard and placing the manga (colorized) appearance in the gallery section, as shown with Pekoms, Luffy, and Kuma. Anime pictures are usually better for infoboxes because they are colored and have full body shots without anything crowding it in the background. And anyways, anime and manga images are usually close enough together that it causes no confusion to use one image for the two of them. 04:08, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

The tab space would be the same. Rid ourselves of the Pre timeskip tab (because what if there's another timeskip later?), and just make it manga and anime. Put the pre time-skip stuff in the gallery. This is obviously going to need to be polled now probably, but having both in the infobox is the best way to go. 04:11, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

(2 FRIGGIN EDIT CONFLICTS IN A ROW) I don't think we should be using tabs. If we get rid of the pre/post-timeskip switch and replace them with an manga/anime-switch then it will be basically the same thing. Sometimes the anime changes a characters appearance just a little bit or depicts some part of the character incorrectly. If we have the original artwork in the infobox too then you can see what the characters originally looked like and it's only fair.

If we remove the pre/post timeskip switch, then I might be open to this idea, but not both at once. I still think that one image would be good enough to cover anime and manga (changes are usually minor and hardly noticeable, besides color schemes), but I don't really care either way. 04:17, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

And the fact that the anime doesn't draw exactly like Oda's style. But yeah, in the end, I propose the destruction of the pre timeskip tab, and for it to be replaced with the manga tab. 04:19, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

I propose we keep it how it is even if I would absolutely LOVE to get rid of the switch completely. SeaTerror (talk) 07:16, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

Since we have different opinions on this should we try to convince each other or just add a poll? I don't know how it's usually done since I'm not so active in forum/article talk discussions.

@Pacifista: "Anime pictures are usually better for infoboxes because they are colored and have full body shots without anything crowding it in the background." - I disagree, manga coloured are far better because they have shadows and deep colours, anime screenshot looks like they were made with paint, but I guess this is the point why galaxy proposed to do a manga/anime switch. As I said, I agree too, but I don't mind using a single picture too and leave the rest in the gallery, though I still don't see the point in using a gallery tab while the introduction tab is usually short... it's a waste of space, the appearance images should be in the first page (but maybe this another matter). Anyway, the options we have are the same of the old forum. I'd like to wait a bit more before opening a poll, we shouldn't rush things, give a chance to everybody to write their own thoughts.

I don't think it's a good idea. I understand that the manga is the source material is the manga, and that manga images are important, however, I believe that the majority of manga images are not suitable for the infobox. Yes, there are a few manga images that are fully colorized and full body, and those would make excellent infobox pictures. However, those images only exist for a small minority of characters, and most minor characters do not have any manga images that would be appropriate for the infobox. Black and white images are ok, but due to the panel format of manga, full body shots of minor characters often don't exist. Now, since I do think the manga images are still important, I fully endorse them being present in the character's gallery (even if they aren't colorized). I just don't think that we should change this, because it would only look good for major characters, and it would make the majority of our pages look worse. Our current image policy of using the best image (regardless of anime/manga) is totally sufficient, and as long as talk pages are used, it really isn't a problem worth completely overhauling every single character page. That's far too much work to avoid a small bit of argument. I would much rather see people working on more productive projects, such as replacing terrible profile images that we already have instead of uploading more bad profile images. 17:47, January 2, 2013 (UTC)

It's pretty darn simple. If we have two relatively good images of both manga and the anime, we put a switch. Right now, there are lots of character images that aren't full body shots so I don't see your problem there.

We're not supposed to have those not full-body pictures, that's my problem. That's a problem we should be correcting, not using as a reason to add more pictures that aren't in line with the image guidelines. 17:43, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

That's why I said we wouldn't be adding those to the switch. Read my post again.

Bump.

I did not understand some objections about manga images not being suitable for the infobox: let's take a minor character with only a B/W and terrible picture from the manga and one relativity nice from the anime. Sure the anime one is the best one, but if we hypothetically use a switch the anime one will still (can) be the default one and as a matter of fact the profile picture. So I do not understand the worry about the manga image quality, it's will be a secondary image not the first one which is the profile picture, why do you keep worry about the guidelines? I don't think they matter for the secondary picture, because that would still be the best manga picture we have. The point of the switch was using the best images from both the manga and the anime to avoid disputes over which one is better between them themselves. I'm honestly starting to be a bit doubtful over the whole (mis)use of the switch, but I don't see that as a valid argument against such a possibility.

I support removing the timeskip switch and make it a manga/anime switch. Agreed with Levi on most points. Plus, I'm pretty sure it's possible to make it manga by default for those who want it. I don't think the edit war argument is really convincing, but not having the source material in the infobox seems unnatural to me.

The manga images can go into the gallery. If a switch is needed at all a pre-timeskip and post timeskip one is much better than having an anime/manga switch. SeaTerror (talk) 19:26, January 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Pre and post-timeskip is not really worth inputting as the main difference is just clothes. And as we all know, the characters change clothes in pretty much every arc, so what's really the difference? The only main difference we have is for Luffy, who got the big scar on his chest, but that was even pre-skip as well. So IDK. I think the rule for having pre and post-skip for characters is really blurry, since some have and some don't. The most important thing is just having the latest appearance of a character. I think that's what most wikis do. Pre-skip is pretty much trivia and could easily be placed in the gallery, while the manga is much more important and the original material which should be placed in the infobox with the anime with a switch, also, to Levi, I think the anime will have to be the default, or just solve it with a poll, if we can't fix it per user choice.

I agree with ST on this one. There's nothing wrong with putting the manga images in the gallery. Pre/Post-TS is also the more important switch template to be used (when used correctly meaning only for characters that have physical changes and not outfit changes.), though I don't really understand the argument against using both switch templates. And if we do eliminate the TS switch, we should use the best picture, and not the most recent. The infobox is for identification purposes, and low-quality pictures do not belong there just because they are the most recent. 22:54, January 11, 2013 (UTC)

The wrong thing about putting manga images in the gallery is that they are the source material. The pre/post switch is useless and the pre timeskip option should be in the gallery, while the post options should be in the infoboxes. 07:37, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with both ST and JSD. If they are used correctly then they are useful, Galaxy. Also, some manga pictures are low quality, such as the early ones, and that will look kinda bad in the infoboxes since we are aiming for high quality pictures. By the way, this reminds me of the render pictures forum because we'll be searching characters with the switch and have to literally upload a bunch of pictures and replace them. 07:50, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

It will be a slow process calu, but slow work doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. And nah, early manga images are actually pretty good. The default will show as anime, while manga will be clicked on. Pre timeskip option is useless due to it being able to fit right into the gallery. 07:55, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

At this point I'm either for a manga/anime switch or none, with leaving all the other images in the gallery though in this case I rather avoid a strict rule like "manga images in the gallery and anime ones in the infobox" (which most of you unofficially follow), that's should be a case-by-case decision. As I said the "low quality" of some manga images is not an issue since they would be most likely the secondary images.


 * Sorry if I wasn't a bit clearer: Manga should go in the gallery when there is already a better anime image in the infobox. If the manga image is the best image (see Ace) then there should be an anime image in the gallery. This is pretty much what we already do, except it is currently applied only to characters with colored manga appearances.

And Gal, you can't say "Pre timeskip option is useless due to it being able to fit right into the gallery" because by that same argument, the manga can go in the gallery. Pre-TS is more likely to be substantially different than manga, and if it is left out of the infobox, characters such as Aisa may become unrecognizable to anime-only watchers who don't know about From the Decks of the World. 16:21, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

Anime only watchers can check the gallery. Manga is the source material, so it doesn't fit into the gallery, so... your argument is flawed. I think it's about time to poll this. Too many different opinions and such. 19:42, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

I can't vote because I don't have 300 edits yet, but as the bureaucrat of One Piece Català Wiki, I ask you to add the attribution of the template and the idea if you decide to do it at the end. It's an honor for catalan wiki that you want to copy that. However, it is important to keep the attribution in Wikia. Good luck! -- 23:25, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with BroOk :3  11:40, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

If we copy your template we'll put in the correct attribution, of course. But as for the idea, it has been around for years. Though it is always easier to discuss things when there's an implemented example to show! About the removal of the pre/post timeskip switch, I kinda agree with JSD that while the main cast does not need a switch, it is debatable for those characters whose post-timeskip appearance has only been shown in the cover story. If the switch is removed, I think I would personally rather put their pre-timeskip appearance—just like we don't use the final appearance of the New Fishman Pirates (except, for some reason, for Hody). Again, that's debatable…

Why so many people voted for a 4-way switch? That's a bit too much... I added the example from the other forum since they were supposed to be the same. What template Brook is talking about.


 * He's talking about this one that Gal linked in the first post. Upon further review, I rather like this template, as it is rather easy to use on the pages, gets all combinations of pre/post anime/manga so that everything can be seen for everyone who wants it. I'll add the example to the poll, so that people can get a better idea of what they're voting for. 17:02, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I see. I'm not really fond of the tabber extension, so we can make a new version of the switch template. The one as example is just a test and it's bugged, but it shows the idea.


 * I rather like the tabs/boxes from the Catalan template for pre/post because it makes the template a bit easier to understand, and look a bit cleaner than having 4 links that all look the same. And that helps to get the idea across that there are 4 possible options, not just 2. If the code gets to be a bit long to add, we could always just add a blank version to MediaWiki:Edittools and have it easy to add to pages. Actually, we should do that with any of the options that wins here. 19:46, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * The current example template is glitchy as well. If you start with Anime Franky Post, then click on Manga, then Pre, it doesn't go to it. In fact it says "Post Timeskip twice when you click on manga. The Catalan template has none of these glitches.

The catalan wiki doesn't use two switches. It uses the -extension (which I've already explained if you scroll up) and a switch with that. It works but doesn't look that nice.

Can we change the "poll will last for 2 weeks" with a date? When was it opened?

Done, [ here's the link of the revision].

Why so many people want a 4-options switch? That way, we won't solve all those edit wars for pre/post timeskip images.

Not only that. It will look uglier than just a manga/anime-switch.


 * I want it because for many characters that have been shown post-TS, their pre-TS pic is more important and recognizable. I think getting rid of those images would be a horrible mistake. 15:48, January 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * You won't get rid of them, they will be moved to the gallery. Also, the switch technically "hide" an image, the gallery doesn't.

Both options are bad. That's why I voted for the other option. SeaTerror (talk) 17:11, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

Poll
'''The poll is now CLOSED. A manga/anime switch will be made for every character, and the pre and post timeskip options will remain.'''

1. Create an anime and manga switch for every character.
 * 22:54, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 22:54, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 22:54, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 22:54, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 22:56, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1)   23:09, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Klobis (talk) 06:35, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 06:56, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1)  17:05, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) -- 23:15, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3)  21:50, January 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * 07:17, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * 17:05, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) -- 23:15, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2)  21:50, January 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * 07:17, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * 17:05, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * 17:05, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

1 Part II: Even if you didn't vote for the above. If the above option wins, which option would you choose?

A. Do the anime/manga switch and keep the pre/post timeskip options as well, as shown here.
 * 22:54, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 22:54, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 22:55, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) User:X-RAPTOR 22:56, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 22:56, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1)  03:25, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2)  06:56, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 21:47, January 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1)  21:50, January 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * 21:30, January 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * 17:05, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * 17:05, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

B. Get rid of the pre timeskip option, throw the pre timeskip images in the gallery, and only use the post timeskip images in the infobox (if quality allows).
 * 19:42, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1)   23:09, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Klobis (talk) 06:35, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 19:40, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) -- 23:10, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 07:15, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * 19:40, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) -- 23:10, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 07:15, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

2. Keep things as they are.
 * 23:02, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) MasterDeva (talk) 17:32, January 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) SeaTerror (talk) 07:13, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

Post Poll Discussion
Discuss. 21:07, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

I personally don't think tabber should be used as the extra option, we should figure out a way to make it so that 2 switches are added since as I said above, tabber is not designable with CSS and looks pretty ugly in its design. We also should discsuss which options should be the default for users, or if we could simply make a JavaScript which let the users decide which to be the default (By saving cookies, perhaps)?

One we have above is fine. We can use that (since we voted on it). 21:39, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

Only because I changed it when the poll had already started, because the version before was bugged. So it doesn't count, because it was only a tentative solution.

We've had the link to the CA wiki thing the whole time. 21:50, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

If you like it we can keep it, but nobody said that would be the way to do it. The link was an example of 4-option switch (so if we want to change something, we don't have to change all articles). Sewil is right, it was changed mid-way since my example was not working. Moreover we need to make a dedicate 4 option template, and the post-timeskip should still be the default one.

I've created the template, please use this one: Switch infobox.

I should remember everybody that people who didn't change physically don't get a switch. The poll said "keep the pre/post timeskip switch", meaning that this rule is still valid.

Is there a way to choose which image is default for some characters? In situations like with Ace or Tashigi, the manga version is better because it is more in line with our guidelines. 18:07, January 28, 2013 (UTC)

At the present, no.

That isn't true at all. Changes in clothing also get a switch. SeaTerror (talk) 19:11, January 28, 2013 (UTC)

Should there be some guideline on how the manga picture is? For example Brook's current pre-timeskip picture has pajamas instead of his trademark suit. He never wears pajamas in the series, so should that matter, or should we keep it the characters' initial outfits? 15:43, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

@Uknownada: cannnot we trust the old good editors' judgement? If yuo think it doesn't suit him, find another one or use the talk page of that file. @SeaTerror: No switch for just a clothing change. It was decided only PHYSICALLY changes matter.

ST, I don't think you've seen the results of Forum:Pre/Post timeskip switch if you still think that. Changes in clothing are not considered for a pre/post switch. Also, the results of one of the polls in that same forum says that the most common appearance should be used, and not the most recent or anything else, which means that most of the Straw Hat images we currently have should be changed. In addition to Brook, Sanji's also depicts him in a way he was never shown in the series. I think we should use black and white Manga appearances instead of color spreads that show less and are in non-standard outfits. 15:58, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

The new template looks, not, good. Instead of having one image on top of another why not follow through with Leviathan's suggestion to include more switches instead of having an image on top of another? Like Sewil said "tabber is not designable with CSS and looks pretty ugly in its design" which is actually the truth. MasterDeva (talk) 06:07, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Colored Manga Infobox
This really isn't too important and I can live without a change, but wouldn't it make more sense for manga infoboxes to be in black-and-white, instead of in color? I know the colored images are highly detailed and look really good, but those aren't how they're actually seen in the manga. Keeping the colored images there seem more like it's giving a version "drawn by Oda" rather than the "manga". The manga is only black-and-white because of color cost, but that doesn't make it colored. The world of One Piece may be in color, but the manga itself is not. Again, we don't have to go through with a change like this, but I just think it might be better if black-and-white would be better because it's used in the infobox section to compare the anime and the manga. When the manga is almost never colored, the comparison isn't quite true. 20:09, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

Those colored manga pictures are colored by Oda himself so I don't see a problem with them. And there aren't many colored manga images used as infobox pictures anyway. 20:14, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

The volume covers and such count as part of the manga. There's no reason not to use them. Not to mention what Staw already said, which is that some of the chapters were actually colored by Oda himself, and are part of the manga. 20:18, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

The volume and chapter covers aren't really exactly the main part of the manga. The manga presents itself in black-and-white for nearly the entire time. I don't think the part of Oda drawing them matters as much as where it's being presented. Remember, the infobox says "Anime" and "Manga", not "Toei" and "Oda". They're not directly part of the manga's presentation other than an introduction. Most of the chapters don't even have any color at all. Plus using black-and-white images on all infoboxes is consistent and fair as it's similar with all characters. As the black-and-white is how the manga is properly presented, it helps with the comparison that the infobox provides. How many times do you see an appearance similar to the volume cover other than the volume cover? The manga has no color or detail, so our infoboxes should show. I'd rather more people participate in this discussion, though. It's really not a needed change, just a suggestion. 22:36, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

I don't really have a problem with cover images. However, I don't think a color walk image for a character from a movie can accurately be called "Manga". If the character never appeared in the manga series, we shouldn't have a manga infobox. 22:51, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

@Nada, I don't think that using only B&W pictures would particularly help "comparing". Besides, basically, infoboxes should give as much information as possible; there is therefore no real inconsistency in having some infoboxes in color and others in B&W.