Forum:Manga as Default on a Switch Template

Why an adaptation image shouldn't be shown as default
It seems to me that this wikia has taken a strong liking to One Piece's adaptation, and has thus made it so that the images from that adaptation is being shown as default instead of the actual One Piece images. This has been a normal thing for quite some time, and I've been wondering why that is.

Just recently I came back to this wiki after not being caught up to One Piece for a while, and this is one of the issues I've been wanting to fix. So why didn't I fix this earlier, you may ask. Well, maybe it's because this wiki is so rooted in the belief that the adaptation, without hesitation, should be considered the superior and default choice, that changing one of the major templates proving that point would be incredibly difficult.

But it's just common sense, isn't it? An adaptation is still an adaptation. It's not the original content, and it's never going to be superior in any way, so why should it be default? Because colour? That's like saying that Aragon from the Lord of the Rings movies should be shown as default on a wikia instead of J.R.R.'s actual paintings because it's a real person. The added elements do not matter one bit.

I want to hear your logic of why the adaptation should be the preferred choice. Let's put this Anime vs. Manga war behind us.

Agreed 100%. The manga should be the default, as the source material is manga. Shouldn't matter to people since the anime option is still there, but the anime image should not be the first to show up, purely since it is an adaptation. Mr. Whatever (talk) 16:16, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

When a discussion affects multiple articles, a forum should be used, never a talk page for a single article or template. Move it before I post. 19:10, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Sewil. I know a lot of the more experienced editors on this wiki prefer adding a bit of color to the articles but at the very least, the default image that loads for the portraits should be the manga image. More often than not, the anime has quite poor art compared to the manga so why some insist on that being front and center is beyond me. We should consider the quality of the art before we consider whether we should add the color. Idontknowwhatimdoing (talk) 23:50, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

I'll tell you exactly why we prefer anime as the default: We have more options there. Anime as a moving form gives us the freedom to grab an image with a favorable pose. Let's look at Nami. Pre-skip, she's got two great images for both anime and manga. But post-skip? Absolutely not. Her Manga picture is far inferior to her Anime image. The manga never gave Nami a decent, recognizable pose that makes it easy to identify all of her features, where the anime took the time (or fanservice) to do just that. Let's look at Brook for another example: His Pre-TS anime is probably the single best infobox image on the wiki. It's got a perfect pose with no distortions of his features and very high art quality, and it's got color too. But let's look as his post-skip manga image, which would be the default if we went with your proposed plan: This. Compared to the other it's awful for recognizing him. First off he's sitting so you can't see his height or body structure, then Oda's drawn him with his mouth open to a cartoonish level, and on top of that, we see more of a guitar than his outfit. Some images aren't suitable to be the default no matter what the source is. What you should be proposing instead of an anti-Toei rejectionist policy where anime images are lesser beings, you should be proposing that we are able to choose which image is the default based on which image is best for easy identification of the character's features in the most complete way possible. But you aren't proposing that compromise, just the opposite of the situation we have now.

And color is an extremely important part of being able to identify characters when you are unfamiliar with the series, which many of are readers are. When I look at an image, I don't look at how many lines were used to draw the nose, but rather if it can give me a complete image of the character. That applies to both sources, not just anime or manga. Art quality is important, but there are situations where it needs to be sacrificed, much like any other trait. In a perfect world, we'd have perfect images. But guess what? Toei's art isn't perfect and neither is Oda's. 00:23, September 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * TL;DR/other point: We're a wiki first, and a fansite second. Our dedication to what is "actually One Piece" comes in SECOND to our dedication to being a wiki. Our main concern should be what we are displaying to the reader, not taking everything Oda does as religion and shitting on Toei all the time. 00:31, September 9, 2014 (UTC)

Might as well. My only qualm is that color pictures are more visually appealing than black and white. With a lot of characters, this isn't be a problem, but with most of the characters, they don't appear in color anywhere so the first image to greet the eyes on those pages will just be plain black and white. By making anime the default, at least we can always have the image that basically represents a page be in color. It just makes a better first impression. But even I can tell I'm being OCD about it, so yeah. I'm not against it, but I'm not crazy about it. 00:33, September 9, 2014 (UTC)

I totally agree with JSD. Some of the more minor characters (e.g Meadows) have absolutely horrendous manga infobox pics, because there's just no options to choose from in the manga. Color is also very important. 15:05, September 9, 2014 (UTC)

You seem to think that just because the adaptation isn't the default that would automatically mean all the manga images are better. This is not the case. I'm saying the original source material should be shown first, and the adaptation second. Sure, the anime has got some better angles and sometimes colour adds with the detail, but it doesn't matter. We need to stay consistent. The manga images it the first to be put up, and it stays as the default. The adaptation shouldn't replace it, but merely add to it. What we should strive for instead is getting the best images we can get from the manga.

For example, I don't think we should pick horribly angled pictures from the manga just because they're in colour. That Brook manga infobox picture is horrible, and there are several good shots of him not in colour. What's with your obsession with colour? Saying it is extremely important for unfamiliar readers makes no sense. One Piece is in black-and-white and always has been. We shouldn't sacrifice a good shot with a horrible one for some colour.

So basically, you're admitting that anime images are often more suitable, yet we can't use them as default just because it's an adaptation? That's totally ignoring the purpose of the infobox images. This is not the One Piece Manga Wiki, this is the One Piece Wiki. I don't have an obsession with color; You said it yourself: It adds detail. It's funny how you haven't provided a single argument as to why the more suitable adaptation images shouldn't be shown as default, besides "it's an adaptation". 11:50, September 10, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, this is the One Piece Wiki, where the manga (which is One Piece, while the anime is just an adaption of One Piece) is apparently second to the anime because of color (and color doesn't mean anything when most of the time the colors are lifeless and disgusting. This wiki uses the manga first when it comes to information (non-canon anime content is pointed out as non-canon by a template, meaning we do prioritize the manga first in that regard). Some of the anime colors even contradict the canon colors given by Oda (Doflamingo's original outfit, Robin's eye color, the color of Wiper's tattoos, Cabaji's coat color, and many many more). It's best to have the anime as second because of this, since it's a massive contradiction to display it first when it's outright wrong, or of much lesser detail than the manga (...which is almost always the case).

Yes, there are outliers like Meadows' infobox... but the anime option is still there for those that wish to see it. The anime option isn't going anywhere, it just wouldn't be the default anymore. Mr. Whatever (talk) 16:41, September 10, 2014 (UTC)

You just posted a list of nonissues. The color differences were usually minor. Your original argument for Law's infobox portrait was "blue hair" which was another nonissue. SeaTerror (talk) 16:48, September 10, 2014 (UTC)

That's a legitimate thing to say actually, as Law's hair is blue. That's the canon color, so we're using it as his portrait. Mr. Whatever (talk) 16:53, September 10, 2014 (UTC)

Actually it wasn't. Oda changed it to black which is the portrait we are actually using. Also it wasn't legitimate it was just you looking for something to bitch about. SeaTerror (talk) 16:57, September 10, 2014 (UTC)

Good job ignoring all arguments besides color, Gal. The Meadows stuff isn't uncommon, you know. It gives a terrible first impression to anyone visiting the page. And "One Piece" is a franchise that includes the manga and the anime. 17:04, September 10, 2014 (UTC)

Kage has a point. We want to give visitors the best first impression possible, so using the anime, whose quality is more refined than the manga, would be the better choice. And Gal, by your arguing, we should get rid of all anime images since they're not true representations, which is stupid. The anime pics, over all, have better aesthetics to them, which will make people like visiting the pages more. It's fine to be a purist, but not when it's changing what already works. 17:13, September 10, 2014 (UTC)

"One Piece is in black-and-white and always has been." Wrong, chapter one was printed in color, and One Piece is intended to be a world where color exists.

Our mission as a wiki is to provide the best content possible for our readers, regardless of which source(s) they consume. Fact is that it's harder for someone who is used to seeing a character in color (such as associating Nami with Red hair, or Zoro with Green hair) to recognize that character in black and white than it is for someone who is used to seeing a character in black and white to recognize them in color. Most of our readership is from people who are mostly unfamiliar with the series and want to learn about it, which is why having the most recognizable image as the default is important. That is why color is important for infobox images.

Though, as with all image issues, the most important thing about the image is how it is supposed to be used. I'll be the first to admit that there are several anime infobox images out there that are less suited to be default than a black and white manga image. Though personally, I feel that the vast majority of Anime infobox images are better suited to be the default. It's a case-by-case issue, and any one-size-fits-all solution will be a disservice to some articles.

But it's clear to me that what you guys are truly after is re-hashing this old argument.

When I see an image war, the first thing I ask myself is "What is the image's purpose in the article?" Asking this allows me to directly assess what the most important features of the image are. So for infoboxes, that purpose is to provide the most complete possible to show their appearance, including traits such as body structure, face, hair color, outfit, etc. I do not see "canonicty" of color schemes or whatever else to be one of the features that makes a character more or less recognizable, because we, as a whole wiki are dedicated to ALL things One Piece. That means both anime and manga are on equal ground with me long before I ask the question "What's the image's purpose on the article." That's the attitude you need to have if you're ever going to be truly unbiased. 18:44, September 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * Also, I'd like to point out the futility of what you guys are doing: You're asking us to compromise (put manga as default) on what already was a compromise (putting all sources in the infobox). At a certain point, you're not helping lessen arguments if you're never satisfied. 18:44, September 10, 2014 (UTC)

@ST: This is blue, not black.

@Kage: I haven't ignored the other arguments. I've also stated that the anime doesn't add much detail at all to anything. The arguments for anime are as follows: "It's in color". "It has more detail", which in most cases... is not true at all.

@DP: Sorry, but anime quality is definitely not more "refined" than the manga. I'd love to dispose of all anime images, as none of them are really all that good (lifeless and undetailed in most cases), but that's never going to happen due to the focus people have on color and fake "detail" for some reason.

@JSD: The One Piece world in color or not argument is irrelevant. Both colored volume images and black and white manga images are used for infobox images (and rightfully so, as the colored manga images by Oda obviously trump his own black and white drawings), but the anime on the other hand, really do not trump the black and white drawings at all.

Are you really assuming that people are that naive? When people go to a character article, they already can see the information about the character in the article, and in the article name. They'll know who the character is from that alone, so the anime's "color" really won't help in that regard. So don't go calling your opinions on what's better "fact". The real fact is that the anime is an adaptation of the manga, and therefore should not be placed first in terms of content we provide (as said before, the anime information is labelled with a template in the information section, which creates a massive contradiction when we put anime before manga in images, but not include it as part of the text (which we shouldn't... because it's not canon.) The purpose of the infobox image is to show the character, which the manga does very well. The anime image would not be going anywhere, it would just be switched around due to the manga being the original source, and therefore the first thing to pop up on an article when it is opened.

On a case by case basis, it will not work, as there will be users who think the anime image is "fine", no matter how much better the manga image is, which will not allow for the better image to be used as the default on the page. A strict policy, where the adaptation is second to the original (like it is for everything else on this wiki), should be the policy that is followed, out of respect for the original author, and for the sake of consistency in what information comes first in the article (manga over anime in text, manga over anime in names, manga over anime in pictures). Anime and Manga are not on equal ground in any of those things, unfortunately.

I wouldn't call the Manga/Anime switch a "compromise", but rather a necessity that needed to happen since the anime was the only image in the infobox, while the original work was nowhere to be seen. That same necessity is needed here, in order to hold up the integrity and consistency of this wikia. Once again, it's all about consistency on what's important, and mostly, on the subject of information, that's manga, but for some reason, people seem to contradict that when it comes to images. Mr. Whatever (talk) 19:32, September 10, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I can see the direction this is going (which is south, btw), so I'm going to make this easy. To put it simply, the anime pics catch the eye more than the manga does. Art majors can argue the reasons why that is somewhere else. What a lot of people need to realize is that the wiki isn't about individual editors getting their way, it's about pleasing the readers. If those who live to argue look up from their power plays for a few moments, they might realize that. I see no issue with the way things are now, considering the dozens of characters who won't have manga images. Gal, I know you're crazy for consistency, and keeping the anime on the front would be the best (and dare I say only) way to keep all the character info boxes straight (one word, fillercharacters). This isn't a "let's hate the anime" forum. Read the title again if you think that way. No single one of us can speak for the unseen masses who use the wiki but don't have an account, and pull your head out of your ass if you disagree. And before you jump on the chance to bash me for it, I'm not speaking for them. I'm speaking about this using general opinion that I've noticed. This isn't about one person getting his/her way. This isn't an individual operation. Don't ask yourself "What do I want?" Instead, ask yourself "What do people want?" I know some of you don't give two f***ks and an ice cream cone about what other people think because you're so dead set on forcing your opinion down everyone's throats as pseudo-fact, but just try for a little bit. Do you think the public at large would prefer the anime (the more popular of the two), or the manga (the one with less of a following) as the first thing they see when they land on any random page? Deny it all you want, but the answer is kinda obvious. Selfishness has no place here. No one can get their way all the time, no matter how much of a dick they try to be to make sure it happens. Think selflessly and the answer will be clear. 00:16, September 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) "The anime pics catch the eye more than the manga does" - Opinion, not fact. "The manga pics catch the eyes more than the anime does" - Opinion, not fact.
 * 2) What a lot of people need to realize is that the wiki isn't about individual editors getting their way, it's about pleasing the readers. - You are literally speaking for the readers. Why not ask them ourselves?
 * 3) I see no issue with the way things are now, considering the dozens of characters who won't have manga images. I know you're crazy for consistency, and keeping the anime on the front would be the best (and dare I say only) way to keep all the character info boxes straight (one word, fillercharacters) - Filler characters don't apply to this. It's all about the canon characters.
 * 4) No single one of us can speak for the unseen masses who use the wiki but don't have an account - ...And yet, you are speaking for them by saying that they prefer anime.
 * 5) Do you think the public at large would prefer the anime (the more popular of the two), or the manga (the one with less of a following) as the first thing they see when they land on any random page - No facts here, just statements that you seemingly made up. In the English community, the manga has more of a following. People who are anime only are rare.

So, in the end, you've stated unproven facts, and opinions, and written them off as fact. Mr. Whatever (talk) 05:22, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

"No single one of us can speak for the unseen masses who use the wiki but don't have an account - ...And yet, you are speaking for them by saying that they prefer anime."

Yet you claim those same readers would use all your terrible redirects you make. SeaTerror (talk) 07:57, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

Please keep this discussion civil gentlemen. No cursing, attacking the other side, etc. You know the drill. We do not want things to get ugly.

PS: This forum has nothing to do about the redirects SeaTerror. There is a specific thread for that. Do try to stay on topic... MasterDeva (talk) 11:02, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

SeaTerror is just mudslinging like always. Ignore him. Mr. Whatever (talk) 12:10, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. I believe that the anime image should be used as default. Answer this honestly. If you were to present something would you display it in black and white or in colour? Obviously, colour. I don't have a thing against manga images, but the purpose of the infobox image is to present the character. The default image is the image that a viewer will first see. I don't see the problem with the default being an adaptation. It's not like we aren't including the manga image. Isn't that one of the purposes of the switch template? To include them both? Actually, Gal anime-only viewers are not rare. They're quite a lot of them. 12:43, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

Nope. It is completely on topic. He claims that DP is "speaking for the unseen masses" yet does the SAME EXACT THING. I'm pointing out his hypocrisy which is completely on topic. SeaTerror (talk) 16:41, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

Stop with the mudslinging SeaTerror. Continuing to mudsling on this forum and post off topic on this forum will result in a reopening of your ban forum. Last time I've telling you this.

I'm humor your redirect mudsling though, and tell you that all of the redirects I've made can legitimately be used due to being said in the manga, or in scans that can be accessed on the internet at any time. All you've presented in that argument is "I won't use those redirects, so nobody will", while others have presented the scans they're present in, and instances in the manga that they're present in. In any case though, the two issues have nothing to do with one another, because they are completely different scenarios.

Lelouch:


 * 1) Answer this honestly. If you were to present something would you display it in black and white or in colour? Obviously, colour. - Black and white, honestly. It looks more full of life than Toei's lifeless anime.
 * 2) but the purpose of the infobox image is to present the character - Okay? The manga is is the original character. The anime is the adaptation, not the original.
 * 3) I don't see the problem with the default being an adaptation - The problem is that it's an adaption, while the original image should be the first image seen, since One Piece is manga first, anime second.
 * 4) It's not like we aren't including the manga image. Isn't that one of the purposes of the switch template? To include them both? - Then there shouldn't be an issue in displaying the manga first. The only issue is color... which isn't really an issue.
 * 5) anime-only viewers are not rare. They're quite a lot of them - Present these masses of anime only viewers that are unable to identify a character due to not being in color. You won't find many.

Mr. Whatever (talk) 16:55, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

I do agree manga should be the default, but we should also considering digital-colored images or colored covers (chapter covers or volumes), so we can at least not needing pure black-and-white. 16:57, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

I'd love to use the digitally colored manga in the infobox at some point (not to replace the black and white manga though)... but we polled on that and it was decided that it wouldn't be used except for in the appearance section. We could reopen that discussion at some point, but that's for another time. Mr. Whatever (talk) 17:00, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

You prefer black and white to "Toei's lifeless anime"? Seems to me like you have an extreme bias against Toei that's clouding your judgment here. Suppose this was the wiki for a manga where the anime was made by another company whose animation you like (Idk, Bleach maybe? I don't actually watch/read other stuffs, so imagine whatever you want). Would you honestly still prefer manga as the default if the anime art quality was sharp and colors were full of life? 17:08, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

Wouldn't matter who made the anime. I'd still feel the same way that the author's work is mostly better than that of an adaption (yes, you have cases like Hunter x Hunter where the art is crap in the magazine, but at least that is fixed in the volumes). My point overall is that the author's work is the true vision of the characters, not the adaptation. Mr. Whatever (talk) 17:12, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

Poll Discussion
This is getting nowhere, so here's a test poll. Any thoughts on it? 17:29, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

As proposed in the chat, we should have a poll for the readers to decide. There's no need to rush such a gigantic change. Mr. Whatever (talk) 17:31, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

What I meant in chat is that a large portion of this depends on what we view the readership to be: Manga readers, anime watchers, or both. So what I proposed in chat is that we make a simple poll to ask our readers which form they consume One Piece with. Obviously, with such a poll, anyone could vote on it multiple times, which is an unfortunate fact. There's no way to get an accurate measure of the readership without asking anons though. So I propose that we ask this question in a poll, use the Community Messages to ask all of our readers to answer it, and then potentially use the results as evidence to put up for consideration in this forum. It might not be totally accurate, but if we find that there's 4000 votes for anime, and only 1200 for manga, those would be pretty clear results that probably aren't fucked with to a degree that matters. Doing that is just the only way to at least try to get a measure of what the wiki's readership actually is. 17:39, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

If there's going to be talk of a compromise, it has to happen before the poll. It will never win as a third option, and it's pointless having it there. 17:55, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

The compromise would be having the manga as default on pages where the manga better fits the guidelines (Ace) for example. Mr. Whatever (talk) 17:57, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

Right... but a compromise is by definition a second choice coming from give and take, and you're not going to have a majority of people voting for their second choice. Either you poll OR you compromise. 18:01, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

Gal's banned and Sewil appears to have gone with him. Does anyone still care about this enough to proceed with the poll? 13:58, September 22, 2014 (UTC)

I think only those two supported it. We can probably strike out the poll too. SeaTerror (talk) 17:50, September 22, 2014 (UTC)

We should poll before we decide to strike the poll, first. 23:16, September 23, 2014 (UTC)

Give it one more day for anyone to object against closing the forum now, and if there's still nothing, we can close the forum and be done with it. 01:44, September 24, 2014 (UTC)