Talk:Devil Fruit/Merger

Votes

 * Against:Mugiwara Franky 02:17, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree: But I'd like to see the draft first since this has become quite a big thing. One-Winged Hawk 02:36, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Against: See below.--Uncanny Ultrabeast 09:57, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree: see my arguments below. El Chupacabra 18:43, March 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Against: MasterDeva 23:40, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Discussion
In the discussion on Forum:Index/Site Problems I mentioned my intention to merge the articles on the devil fruit types into this article as sections. It became the point of a vivid discussion, that is very important, but not really related to the discussion i intended there. Therefore I want to continue it here.

Many arguments for and against this were already given there, so i recomend you to throw a look to that page.

In order to give you an imprssion on how this article would look like after the merger, I've created a "preview" in the Sandbox. Of course it's a bit raw, but if my request will be succesfull I would improve it. Nevertheless it gives you an impression on the size and the structure of the article after the merger. El Chupacabra 17:50, March 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * I am generally against this merger due to many reasons:


 * Firstly, it came about as part of a plan on a completely separate matter instead of being started here.
 * The merger seems more like something that would be proposed on Wikipedia by deletionists or mergists.
 * The merger doesn't seem to being taking into account that Devil Fruits and their types are a major part of the One Piece mythos.
 * The merger was proposed due to various merger proposals made on other articles such as Sword Grades which are separate matters to this one.


 * Furthermore, while the preview is indeed raw and messy looking, it however requires alot of the information to be merged or rearranged in order to be cleaner and clearer. It could work if managed properly however that doesn't mean it can't work also in four different pages.Mugiwara Franky 02:58, March 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree, that is not really a good idea. The Devil Fruit page itself has lots of development potential when Vegapunk will be plainly introduced and I can foresee that the Zoan devil fruit has also potential with the Awaken Zoan and the abilities that Marco and Laffitte have shown Kdom 11:46, March 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Against; the articles are in themselves are strong enough to support themselves at this point in time. This would have been ideal preposal back when we first started due to the LACK of information. At this point in time, we'd need to cut off the lists from the pages as I don't think they do anything to a merged page, that the template isn't already doing. There is no repeated information or not that much since we've uniqued them all at this point to suit themselves. One-Winged Hawk 15:03, March 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * 1)I didn't think that this would cause such a discussion. when it did, I moved it to here. 2)Sometimes it's better to separate pages but sometimes it is useful to have larger articles. 3)I think that the types of the devil fruis is a more important part of the mythos then the types alone. It would be therefore useful to have a combined article. Besides, some other popular aspects like the various attacks don't have own articles. Further, the vartious Zoan subtypes (Awaken Zoan, Mythical Zoan etc.) don't have own articles. It's a bit incostinent to have separate articles for the types but no articles for the subtypes. 4)i didn't propose it because of these mergers. i just used them in my argumetation for the merger here. 5) Mugiwara Franky, does your line "It could work if managed properly" mean that you would agree to a merger if I improve this preview? 6)it can help editing the topic. It's easier to edit one large article then 4 smaller. Besides, you said that it won't help, but do you see any real problems that the merger would cause? The size isn't a problem, it would be around 50 000 bytes. Even if it will double it's size with the progression of the story, it would still stay behind pages like Mythbusters or Monkey D. Luffy. El Chupacabra 18:08, March 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Mythbusters and Monkey D. Luffy are not good examples of what I would call good pages (80% of the Mythbusters I have never heard about or have been Mythbusters during one week and I'm not sure it was a good idea to have Luffy history section but now it is to late). So it is not a good idea to use them as arguments. Also I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "I think that the types of the devil fruis is a more important part of the mythos then the types alone". And can you remind us what are the for and against arguments here, I do not want to reread all the category discussion to find them and that is probably even more the case for readers who did not participate to that topic (or is it that you do not want to duplicate them as well :-)), well sorry I couldn't resist it.
 * Kdom 19:40, March 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Mythbusters cannot be seperated without becoming incomplete, the articles it would form are not strong enough to sustain themselves on their own and Luffy's page breaking up would seem silly as breaking up a single page about one character isn't done elsewhere. On the other hand, the Lolas were once together on one page and ended up seperated for being a strong enough on their own and were two seperate characters. In contrast, bounty hunters, punishments and so forth got merged to create one strong article since there were many weak articles.


 * Strength or weakness varies on the chance of merging and seperating. The Devil Fruits pages covers them in general, but the Logia and so forth concern themselves with the uniqueness about each fruit type. While they could be stronger together, I didn't JUST merge the articles merged into Justice, I had to tweak Justice first and then decide what was and was not going to go on its page to create a solid article. If you do merge the fruits, you'll be faced with a simulair problem, while you think the merge will go smoothly just by copy + paste, its not, and there are some elements that need snipping. Think about how you'll structure the article before you add. One-Winged Hawk 20:04, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

In bringing up a merging in any separate discussion, it always does bring up a discussion on whether there should be a merge or not. You cannot just say in one discussion that you want these deleted, you want these merged, you want these arranged this way, you want these name changed, or anything like that in one go. They are completely different matters.

In regards to separate pages and the more usefulness of larger articles, it depends on the topic at hand and the site they are in. The topic is about Devil Fruits and their types. In wikipedia, the topic is a part of a Japanese franchise and is not that important enough to even warrant it's own article in some of the eyes there. In a wikia about One Piece, it is a major topic as alot of the stuff in the story revolves around Devil Fruits.

In regarding articles, it depends on the degree of separation. The attacks and the various Zoan subtypes don't get their own pages as they don't have that much degree. The individual Devil Fruit types themselves have such a degree. By my quote: "It could work if managed properly however that doesn't mean it can't work also in four different pages", I mean that it could work but like Angel is pointing out, you have to tweak some stuff in order to make it work. That usually means throwing out what would be necessary for a separate page. Simple copy and pasting when combining articles is never simple.

For editing one page over four pages, it is indeed easier. However, the advantage of four different pages is that each can develop more than they could in one single page. If placed together, content is often forced to fit together with the whole of the page and sometimes there can be no room for expansion.

When article size comes into topic, it's best to avoid saying just because this other article is this size, we can merge these two articles. Article size can really be a problem in some places.

Interesting fact about the Lolas, guess who separated them? Seen here. Mugiwara Franky 01:37, March 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Of course Mythbusters and Monkey D. Luffy are not good pages. I took them as examples of large pages, as a conter-argument for the ones who say that the merged article would be too big. It should show that the size is sholdn't be a matter in this discussion.


 * As it was requested above to repeat my arguments for merger, I will explain them. One reason the weakness of the Devil Fruit article. The Devil Fruits phenomenon is a core aspect of the One Piece world. One Piece without devil fruits would'nt be the same. Therefore it is neccessary to have an excellent article on the devil fruits. However, this article is far from this. For example it lacks a full list of fruits. If we'll keep the articles separated, then the list will either remain spread on 4 pages or large parts will be doubled. The three types are not a stand-alone feature but an aspect of the devil fruits phenomenon, like the fruits as object or the effects of consumption. Therefore it's appropriate to have them merged into the article. In structure, it's similar to the sword classes (they were merged into the article on swords) or absolute justice and moral justice as variations of the more general concept of Justice. I think that only a Devil Fruit article that includes a full information on the three types could be a very good article. When I tal about the importance of the three types, i don't mean that they are unimportant, but that the general topic Devil Fruits is more important. I think that it would be better for people who look for information on the Devil Fruits if they could find everything on a single page. And, as I said and Mugiwara Franky agreed, editing would be easier as well. I also don't think that there "will be no room for expansion" in a merged article. At least i don't see any point that can be included only into a separate aticle on a devil fruit type but can't be explained in the merged article. If anybody think that there are some, please give some precise examples. I think that it's possible to include every piece of information form the three articles into this article, so that nothing will be lost. Otherise I would't call for a merger.


 * Of coures I know that the merger won't be just copy+paste. I already said that the preview in the sandbox is only a raw sketch and that I would improve it significantly if you'll agree on the merger.


 * Last but not least, the separation of the Lolas and the risky brothers proves that I'm not "deletionist or mergist". As I said, for some entries it's better to have separated articles but otheres benefit from a merger. In case of Lola a split was neccesary, but the Devil Fruit article is a completely different matter. El Chupacabra 15:31, March 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agreed that editing would be somewhat easier but just because the idea is there doesn't mean that it would work especially when considering what has to be done to fit the info into the page. For every piece of information to fit into the page requires alot of organizing and planning. And even when doing so, you are going to have to sacrifice some areas.


 * The raw as you put it, feels like a mess and has several problems. The most prevalent of the problems is that you have to rearrange some parts so that they won't look like a copy and paste. Some parts look like they should be merged this way and some other parts look they have to be taken out due to seeming repetitions.


 * Also while the different types of Devil Fruits don't affect One Piece as opposed to a one general Devil Fruit article, each type however has more than given enough information to warrant their own separate pages.


 * For info that could be lost or not expanded upon, there's the Zoan sub types. Their inclusion in the single page would most likely require them to be slimmed down a bit. Then there's Vegapunk. When the guy finally appears and gives a proper explanation. There's gonna be a dozy. There will be how Devil Fruits grow. There will be how items can eat Devil Fruits. There would probably be explanations on Paramecia and Logia types. There will be alot of things that would explode like wildfire.


 * For the Lola and Risky Bros. split, though reasonable, it kinda shows somewhat of a sign. They maybe a different matter than the Devil Fruit pages in general but considering how alot of things are being dragged into this ever growing argument, it wouldn't be a surprise if they were taken into account as well by some people. I mean this merger was indeed created in the middle of another argument as part of the proposals there.Mugiwara Franky 16:23, March 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * I want to have it known I don't disagree completely with a merger, the one thing I disagree on is just that simple "copy + paste" routine hence why I orginally protested on the idea. If its done with some thought put into it, why not? For me I'd rather have a wikia with 500 solid articles then 5,000 weak ones. However, take note of what I've said, for starters, the lists would have to go at the very least (we have a template anyway), svae the "unknown" fruits. If you can resubmit another preposal, thats better chances are I will agree on, but your submitted idea so far I don't like. One-Winged Hawk 16:46, March 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, as I said, I know that it will require some work and I'm ready to do this. I already have many ideas what can be done. I'm sure that I will not "sacrifice" anything, unless you consider the removal of repeated inforamiton a sacrifice. I don't intend to slim down the zoan sub types. If we'll learn more about them, these sections would be expanded. As to Vegapunk and his research, I already said that even if the article would triple it's size after this, it will not become larger then other articles. As to the list of fruits, I don't think that the template at the bottom is as good. the list is the only complate list of fruits with the names both in Japanese and in english. I would also add the names of the users. El Chupacabra 18:03, March 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * There's actually alot of work to be done for all of the information to be merged together properly. Combining everything from the four pages is impossible as sacrificing stuff cannot be avoided. Some stuff like the various lists presented in the raw as stated look like they would have to be sacrificed unless presented in a way so that they won't be just simple lists. Other stuff look like that they need to be slimmed down considerably for them to work in a single general page. For size and expansion, constantly saying that a certain page won't be as big or more difficult than a large one that is existing has it's limits. You can only go so far with just one single big page.Mugiwara Franky 01:18, March 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * I look at Justice as one of the better examples of a tweaked page when merged. But we can always vote on this idea anyway since two folks have objected already. Note:I only object at a simple cut + paste and hoenstly, those lists look ugly together on the same page. They'd not be so bad in template form, but 120px by 120px or whatever size we're using is too small to show this properly. One-Winged Hawk 08:16, March 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Mugiwara Franky, please explain me what you consider a "sacrifyce". As I said above, I have some ideas on how I would merge these pages and i'm sure that not a single piece of information will be lost. Of coures I will rewrite a lot and if something is repeated, I will keep it only one time, but for me it's not a sacrifyce.


 * One-Winged Hawk, I also wouldn't do simple cut + paste merger. I would rewrite many passages in order to make them look appropriate. The preview in the sandbox should just show the approximate size and the general structure of the merged article. It's not the disign that I would put on this page if you agree to the merger.


 * As to the list of fruits, I would improve it as well. I already have some ideas. However, if you have any proposal, ideas or whishes, express them here or just add them when I'll have my work done. El Chupacabra 17:57, March 19, 2010 (UTC)

By sacrifice I mean what generally would be lost in the process of merging. From the raw you provided, just by skimming over it I can see that there is gonna be lot of stuff that would be lost. Also considering it is a copy paste raw, I have no idea what your exact plans are and whether they are acceptable. You can say you yourself can rewrite and improve it all but from my experience, it really isn't that simple.Mugiwara Franky 02:15, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

El, you say that the Devil Fruit article could be better and I agree to the point that the article definitely needs work (if in nothing else, the language department). Yet I don't understand how you would solve any shortcomings of the article, in making it longer by merging it with the more specific Devil Fruit pages? If anything the merger makes the article more unwieldy to read than it needs to be. Long online pages in my experience are incredibly tedious to read (little phenomenon known as tl:dr) but I might still read the same amount of text a long page might have if it is split into several smaller pages. As such I'm not quite sure what you want to accomplish by making it all the same page? I remain unconvinced by the argument that it is easier to edit and police the article if it is all the same page, not because it is an invalid argument but because the pages are not there for our convenience.--Uncanny Ultrabeast 09:56, March 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * I know that merging pages is not simple, but it's not impossible either. I have some ideas how to do the merger, however it would be to difficult to explain them here in detail. However, some core point would include: regrouping the fruits list as in the preview, adding the users behind the fruits, rewriting some sections, so that things shouldn't be repated (that's all that will be "lost"), moving as many aspects form the trivia section into other sections as possible, improving language and style where neccessary. I think that editing a single page is easier then editing many pages because things can be done in a single edit. However it also helps the readers. For example if somebody wants to compare the sternghts and weeknesses of the three types, he now needs to constantly switch between 3 page. In a merged article he would only need to scroll upm and down. Another example: We currently have no place that shows the laist of fruits with users. The merged and improved article would include one. It will allow everybody to check who ate which fruit. El Chupacabra 18:06, March 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Considering they started out on the same page, I can confirm there is ntohing wrong except data and reference handling. Orginally they were seperated (I think by me...) because we needed some organisation at the time and it was difficult for the Logia, Zoan and Paramecia infos to grow on a page together. Seperation allowed for them to grow in information without restrictions. But now their at significant amount of info, it is no longer ness. for them to be on their own because they've done what I wanted them to do. However, I'm in no rush to see it happen, it can stay as it is or be merged back together again. Either way, so long as the data on the page is doing the job, its fine. One-Winged Hawk 18:31, March 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, according to page histories, you converted the pages from redirects on January 1, 2008. I don't know how it was back then, but I really seen no reson why any part of the merged article can't be expanded without restrictions. El Chupacabra 18:43, March 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well the info back then... Sometimes sepereating a page allows for the world of good, because you encourage editors to fluff up the data to build a significant page. But, as I've said, there is no longer a reason for them to be seperated, the data on each matter grew as pleased. It was actually a routine I was dong around about that time for a number of pages. Another page I did it for was Romance Dawn. In that case though, I don't see a remerger happening because their like a chapter of the manga, deserving of their own page. One-Winged Hawk 18:50, March 23, 2010 (UTC)

El, I do not doubt that it is possible to merge something, it is just the question of why it should be done in the first place? I don't see why the page needs a merger because all your improvements are entirely feasible without a merger. For example: the list, not a bad idea, but it does not require a merger for it to exist. Same thing for the language.

Can you elaborate what you mean with strengths and weaknesses of Devil Fruits? How many paragraphs is actually needed to state the general strengths and weaknesses and d oes it honestly require 4 pages to be merged into 1? I mean i could do it in just a few paragraphs:

Logia

Strength: Transforms user to an element; Allows attacks to pass through unharmed; Incredibly powerful

Weakness: Standard Devil Fruit Weakness; Attacks can get through the use of certain methods and weaknesses the elements: See specific details of individual fruits

Zoan

Strength: Allows user to transform to an animal; Optimal for martial artists

Weakness: Standard Devil Fruit Weakness

Paramecia Strength: Gives user Supernatural abilites; See specifc details in individual fruits; Incredibly varied

Weakness: Standard Devil Fruit Weakness; See specifc details in individual fruits

Going into anymore detail than this is to already go into the specifics of individual Devil Fruits (which all have their own pages).

And to still mention the length of the article I can't speak for other users of the net, but I find long pages to be incredibly annoying to go through. Compare a long page to a fold out in a book, which by all means looks large and fancy but has a tendency to screech everything to halt because you have to finagle with the page. And the computer screen does not even allow the strength of a fold out page of a complete overview of what it contains, as the screen only lets you view bits and pieces at a time. Now opening a different page on the net(which seems to have become a chore apparently?) is similiar to turning a page in a book and allows in many ways a better overview with a few shorter pages than one long page. Not to mention the internet browsers usually have tabs that allow you to have many pages on at once which is even more convenient than scrolling up and down (which in itself is irrelevant to our discussion as one can have the same page in multiple tabs). To sum it up, I can agree on some of your suggestions just not on the necessity of a merger.--Uncanny Ultrabeast 20:11, March 23, 2010 (UTC)

For what you have in mind in El, without abit more explanation and a proper preview, it can really bit difficult. Without them, it can't be exactly certain of what you have in plan. It maybe better or it maybe worse.

For the minor stuff such as spelling and style, they can be applied to the 4 pages and not just one. A list of Devil Fruit and it's user can also be easily incorporated in the main Devil Fruit page provided it is created properly.

For strengths and weaknesses, the description of the differences between the Devil Fruit types can be indeed a bit too small to a point when incorporated in a general setting. If comparison is what you are going for the three types in this area, sometimes that could mean either the lost of information or rewriting sections from scratch. For balancing things out for better comparison, you kinda have to think how things are gonna have to be arranged in order for there to be a proper comparison. The sections of the three Devil Fruit types, while they look like they can be easily incorporated into one page, some parts of them look like they can't be easily incorporated without rewriting.

For going up and down a page to compare differences, there can be a limit to how much that can work. If sections were small to medium sized, going up and down wouldn't be a problem. However if they are large, which seems to be somewhat the case with how the sections look like, going up and down can get a bit tiresome. In cases like that, sometimes three separate pages would be better as it wouldn't confuse people abit.

For the development of the pages themselves, they kinda did grow into their own pages. In fact, by the look of some things, they are somewhat still are growing. Some fine tuning in the pages themselves maybe needed rather than just a merger.Mugiwara Franky 02:06, March 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, as it was requested, I'll explain my design for he strengths and weaknesses sections. I want to keep them more or less similar to their curent appearance, however some points nned to be moved to other sections. For example, the fact that most logia users are affilated to one of the three great powers fits more into the "general information" section then into "strengths". I don't think that they are to detailed, because just saying that logia are increadibly powerful and zoan are optimal for martial artists is not enough. The reader won't know why it's like that. The sections as they are now are not very long. The entire section on the three types makes around 30% of the preview and will make a similar part of the "final" edit. So if somebody only wants to compare the strengths and weekaesses of the three types, he won't need to scroll up and down the entire page but only its middle part.


 * The problem with a proper preview is that I don't want to do alot of work for nothing. If you are against any merger in general, it would be just a waist of time to do this. However if you have some questions on certain aspects, ask them and I'll answer them. When you are concerned about the possibility that the article might become worse, you 're welkome to imporve the parts you won't like. I don't think that the article will stop growing after the merger. As of now, all important information on the devil fruits is included in the 4 articles, and when anything new will be revealed, we will add this. El Chupacabra 15:02, March 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * They are actually kinda very much detailed and kinda long from how they look now. Stuff like Zoan Devil Fruits are optimal for martial artists are kinda indeed their strengths. From what I'm getting from your description of how you're gonna handle things, the version of what you have in plan for the strength and weaknesses of each type is gonna be so merged and moved here and there that a proper comparison is somewhat eliminated.


 * For the preview, doing alot of work for nothing may indeed be something for some people and it could make things clearer for others. I mean one of the votes for the merger is only fully agreeing after a proper preview is shown and accessed. Besides it kinda shows if you are really up to the task for which you are proposing. Saying let's merge this, merging stuff, creating a merged page that is somewhat bad in others' eyes, and leaving the rest to others to work on, may not be very productive.


 * Also is it really that imperative that they should be merged when they are being useful as is while not cluttering that much in the main page.Mugiwara Franky 03:00, March 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * I would shorten them just a little bit. For example, the paramecia sections are good as they are now. The passage that most logia are associated with one great powers fits better into the general information section then into strengths. The list of all the users who can levitate can be easily replaced by "Numerous users" as they are mentioned by name in the refernces. However, refernces for Enel and Aokiji levitating are neccessary. However, these sections cant'be cut too much because otherwise things would be lost and remaining ones will become unexplaned.


 * As to the full preview, I would do one if you agree to the merger in case you'll like it. The problem is that in the voting above, we have a 2-2 tie, and you two oppose the merger in general. However, if you are against the merger anyway, a preview wouldn't help me to convince you. El Chupacabra 14:32, March 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * For stuff like Logia's being part of the most powerful or something, they can be easily moved to the main Devil Fruit page as general descriptions than just merging the whole page. As for others, they can be cleaned up in their respective pages.


 * For the preview, it would really help even if people are against the merging idea. It would really show that you are capable of doing it and not just saying it. Based on the raw and the few ideas you've been giving, you are painting a picture but it's really an incomplete one. Proof of concept can really say something.


 * For the votes and the discussion in it's entirety, I fear this gonna be another one of those long winded ones. While it's 2-2 tie, this really major discussion is gonna need alot of discussion input from the community as it's more than just simply merging a few pages as the merge is gonna require a major rework in other areas of the wikia.Mugiwara Franky 16:00, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

El, I have no idea what you have in mind when you intend to make a list containing all Devil Fruits and their users or even if it will be just plain text or something else, but I took the liberty to create a possibility of how such a list could look like:

The general idea is that it contains both name of the user and the power with a pic of that power in use.

As for the Preview I really have no opinions on it simply because I have no concept what it would look like or what you intented with it. I agree with Mugiwara Franky on this, you definitely need to prove your concept.--Uncanny Ultrabeast 22:30, March 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm an idiot for not realizing that the preview the two of you were talking about concerns your intentions to what you El, want with this article. I jumped to conclusions, thinking that you were speaking of something else. :X Shows what I know.--Uncanny Ultrabeast 23:14, March 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * If just parts of the type articles will be moved to the main devil fruit article, this will weaken them. Remember that one of your arguments against the merger is that they are "strong enough to support themselves". I have the impression that it's impossible to have both a good and strong devil fruit article and three strong type articles.


 * As to the preview, I already said that I would do a complete and preview if you would agree to the merger if you'll like it. However, I have the impression that you want to keep the pages separated and won't agree to merge them even if i'll do a preview.


 * What do you imply by saing that "the merge is gonna require a major rework in other areas of the wikia"? Most articles linking to Paramecia, Zoan and Logia are the articles on the respective fruits and their users. These entries would become redirects to the same-named sections of devil fruits.


 * As to my ideas on the list, my intention was originally to add the names of the users to the existing list, like this:


 * Gomu Gomu no Mi (English versions: Gum-Gum Fruit): Gives the user a body made of rubber. As a consequence gives near-immunity to blunt attacks and weaponry. Eaten by Monkey D. Luffy.
 * Bara Bara no Mi (English versions: Chop-Chop Fruit): Allows the user to split their body into separate parts. As a consequence gives them immunity to blades. Eaten by Edward Newgate.

...
 * Gura Gura no Mi: Allows user to cause shock waves by shattering the air, through which the user can create earthquakes and tsunamis. Eaten by Edward Newgate, powers later absorbed by Marshall D. Teach.


 * However, I like your idea of a gallery-like list. It includes images of the users in action, (what the current list doesn't) and this make the description a bit superfluous. The difficulty with this list is that some fruits, like the Gura Gura no Mi were used by two people and it might be a bit difficult to depict this. Additionally, your gallery lacks the english names, but this can be easilly improved. In general, I think that this gallery would be a very good feature of the merged article. El Chupacabra 15:32, March 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * I opted out of tables and stuff for listing the devil fruits early on for various reasons. If your going to have a list, its best to have a word list and have done with it then a picture list in this case. Its simulair to the bounty posters, as I've said here as well. Plus fitting a GOOD demo of the Devil Fruit in a tiny 120 x 120 px image? One-Winged Hawk 17:01, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

El, I'm not certain if your answering me or Mugiwara Franky? I recognize some arguments as my own, but not the others. I've gathered that you consider them impossible to be strong as separate articles, but that does not exactly explain why you consider the articles impossible to be strong on their own?

As for the gallery, my intial idea was to use them only on the main Devil Fruit page and keep the respective lists on the type pages since they serve different purposes. Those lists explain both the english names and the general descriptions of what the fruits do. While Hawk's idea has some merit, I thought the purpose of this gallery is to show who ate the fruits. The further descriptions of what the fruits powers are, can be found on the individual fruit pages, which the gallery convenietly links too, both the user and the fruit. When it comes to this suggestion there is some grey area to be found, like the unconfirmed powers. Should Urouge and even Doflamingo (even though the majority of users, in my experience, have some sort of allergic reaction to the possiblity that he could have a devil fruit) get their mugshots in the gallery under the description unknown fruits? However, the unnamed powers should get their entry as they have been confirmed as fruit users (the other Supernovas and Akainu). Teach and the Gura Gura no Mi should have three entries between them, one for Teach and his logia and the other for his paramecia and still one for Whitebeard and the aforementioned paramecia.--Uncanny Ultrabeast 18:15, March 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * I answered both of you. As to the strength of the article, I think that the current Devil Fruit is not good becuse it lacks a complete list of fruits and users and becuse the section on the fruit types is too small. However, if these things would be improved without a full merger, many parts would be doubled. If parts of the type articles would be moved to the devil fruits page, they would miss these parts. A merged article would cover all aspects of the devil fruit phenomenon. Its type sections would provide all neccessary info on the three types.


 * As to the gallery of user, I would use it in a bit differnt way. Since the article is on the fruits and not on the users, I would have one entry per fruit, as in the current list. If a fruit was used by many users, they all should be listed below the image. However, i think that the gallery can be a replacement for the list we have. thaink a bit: The current list giver the names of the fruits in Japanese and English and a short description of the ability. However, the name is derived form the ability and if we'll have both the name and an image showing the effect of the fruit, the descrioption would become superfluous. The reader would already know what the fruit allowes and if he or she wants to know more, there's the link to the fruit article. As to the content, it's a differnt matter. The inclusion of Doflamingo, Urogue, Dragon etc. doesn't depend on the layout. If you ask me, I would add them under "possible" or "speculative" devil fruits. El Chupacabra 14:10, March 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry El, but I've already disapproved of any list of the Devil Fruits here template form or not, there are far too many. Also note, I shy away from large galleries on pages for sake of lag and other problems they enact on users, hence why I got annoyed with Pirate flags having too many in that gallery and don't want it on the bounties page. We don't have the list of every pirate on the Pirates page for the same reason to avoid such a long list. And if you insist on attempting it, I'd have to withdraw my vote for you for that reason sadly. I'll support a merger without it since I can see the problem ahead. The only exception to the long list is the bounties page, but its handled in a way that makes a list not a list if you get what I'm saying. The template at the bottom of the page works just fine as a complete list.


 * There actually was at one point an old wikipedia rule that "lists don't complete a page", since they were hardly encyclopedic and considered not very good/strong pages. While we can do it differently, this is one rule I sort of agree on, lists simply don't complete a page because a page can be complete without them. One-Winged Hawk 14:22, March 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * I do not insist on attempting it, I just thought that this might be a good idea. My main ideas are 1)make a list of all fruits on this page (as a result of the merger). 2) Add the names of the users to the description. El Chupacabra 14:32, March 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thats good. List tend to work best if their on short pages and I'd start wondering why a merger happened in the first place if you include them. Thats why I keepmentioning them. Just take note, lists don't complete a page, the facts complete the page. No facts? The page is incomplete. Lists we can do without. I admire your strain of thought, but I'd see a bigger hacking at the page to compensate for a list then if there isn't a list. One-Winged Hawk 14:47, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

Discussion(continued)
I have to agree with you on this Hawk, while I would want a gallery of devil fruit users I realize that might not be possible simply because there are 81 users and probably more on the way. So a list if it ever comes to pass should just be text, which in itself is going make this article quite long never mind a merger. Then there is the Devil Fruit template that I consider quite sufficient as a list, it might lack descriptions but you can always click the names to find what kind of devil fruits are in question. But generally speaking I'm not against making a list on devil fruits and their users and putting it on the main page even if I feel it does seem mildly trivial in the larger scheme of things.

If you El want to create a list and seemignly avoid it being a double post of other articles you could accomplish it by making a list of Devil Fruit Users instead of a complete list of Devil Fruits. For example:

Devil Fruit Users:


 * Paramecia:


 * Monkey D. Luffy ate the Gomu Gomu no Mi (English versions: Gum-Gum Fruit): Gives the user a body made of rubber. As a consequence gives near-immunity to blunt attacks and weaponry.
 * Buggy ate the Bara Bara no Mi (English versions: Chop-Chop Fruit): Allows the user to split their body into separate parts. As a consequence gives them immunity to blades.
 * Marshall D. Teach absorbed the Gura Gura no Mi: Allows user to cause shock waves by shattering the air, through which the user can create earthquakes and tsunamis.


 * Zoan:


 * X. Drake ate an unnamed Devil Fruit: Gives user the ability to transform to a Dinosaur.


 * Logia:


 * Marshall D. Teach ate the Yami Yami no Mi Allows the user to control gravity and compress matter into darkness, can also nullify Devil Fruit Powers.


 * Unknown Powers:
 * (the Following Powers could be the result of Devil Fruits)


 * Urouge has the ability to expand his size and muscle mass.
 * Laffitte has the ability to sprout wings whether due to it being a Paramecia or Zoan is unknown.

This way we can scrap the unknown/unnamed list.

El, you should definitely address us separetely because it makes it easier for us to know who you are arguing against, we might be both against the merger but with different arguments. While I can't speak for Mugiwara Franky, I can't recall to ever suggest that we should take anything from the other Devil Fruit Type pages and put it on the main Devil Fruit page.

"... becuse the section on the fruit types is too small." That's the thing isn't it, I don't think the section is to small and certainly don't think they need anything more simply because it already has the links to the Devil Fruit type pages that already has the necessary information. The point of the section is simply to give a brief(and I mean brief) explanation to what the types stand for, which the section already does. But if you want to know how the different types actually work in greater detail, then you should click the link to the appropriate Devil Fruit type page.--Uncanny Ultrabeast 16:52, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

The discussion was causing major lag on its main talk page, so I moved this like I did on forum; site problems with that particular discussion. It now has its own page and related things should also be moved here so their all together. One-Winged Hawk 19:08, March 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * For the gallery/list of Devil Fruits, it would be best to keep it a word list but designed in a way that it isn't simply a word list. Something like how the bounty list and episode list are designed per say. A pic gallery can only go so far. There are other variables like English names that would need to be included in a Devil Fruit list. There's also the users that might present a problem in a pic list. Due to the case with Blackbeard, pics maybe abit overcrowded i wen certain sections. He maybe the first and possibly only one but that doesn't mean something like this would happen again in the future. I mean we don't fully know how he did it. Is it the power of the Yami Yami no Mi or something else?


 * For the types section in this page, I would have to agree with Ultrabeast's assessment of the section. The section is a brief intro explanation of the types that links to other pages that are otherwise too long to fit in the page itself.Mugiwara Franky 03:57, April 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Uncanny Ultrabeast, such a list would still double the other lists because it would include everthing form the other lists. Besides, I think that since the article is about devil fruits and not about about the users, therefore we need a list of fruits that mentions the users and not vice versa. The Template:Devil Fruits Navibox is not a replacement for the list because it only includes the fruits. The list should include the english names, the users and a brief descrition as well. Besides, unnamed fruits are not included into the template even if they are confirmed.


 * Mugiwara Franky, the Bounty list is a good layout for the devil fruit list. Thank you for the idea. I would use this layout. As to the sections: They are not too long. Look at the preview, thy are not much longer then the side effects section. The levels section of the Impel Down article has the same size but it isn't a separate article. Do you still think that the article would be too long after the merger? The size of the rough preview should have proved the opposite. El Chupacabra 11:24, April 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * I mention that Bounty list a bit ago, though didn't recommend using it. But yes, the Bounties list is our least listy looking of the lists (if that makes sense) and was intended to be like that. The orginal design was a table, but a table didn't offer the field of depth we could take the list as it is now to. So it wouldn't go wrong if used here as it DOES allow for the problems one faces to be avoided. One-Winged Hawk 12:17, April 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * It can be fit to the fruit list easily. Instead of name, nickname and bounty it would include Japanese name, English name and users. In the description section there would be the short description of the fruit's powers. El Chupacabra 12:23, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Having a list of all the Devil Fruits on the Devil Fruit page and having several smaller lists in each individual types could be doable as long as the setup of the lists are designed well. The bounty list layout can be a start but not necessarily has to be the same layout structure for a Devil Fruit list. Different lists sometimes require different structures based on the elements being used.

For your rough preview El, while you can compare it to other long pages and say that the sections are no longer than theirs, it however is still a rough preview. The rough preview may allow stuff to be expanded but stuff may not be expanded in what you have in mind. The rough preview is also still a very ugly looking copy and paste type of thing.

Before you El, can say that things can work out as an argument against claims that it won't, you may really want to work on your preview to back things up. Some of us will no doubt be against you no matter what you do, however the more you don't show how things can work out, the more we would be against you.07:22, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand why the double posts are such an issue since the totality of this wikia is built on them. For example the sagas-arcs-chapters. The reasoning behind them are, if you only want to know what happens in a specific arc you can look up that page and it does not require you to search all the individual chapter pages for the information about the arc. But when you read these pages(not to mention character pages) you realize it repeats the same information over and over again. But their existance are there to make information more available to users even if they are double posts.

The fact that there are lists on different pages is not a problem in itself, since the Devil Fruit type pages you have a list that only deals with fruits that are of the same type. While on the Devil Fruit main page you can have a list which deals with all the fruits. Even though the same information will be in two places the lists have different purposes.--Uncanny Ultrabeast 08:51, April 2, 2010 (UTC)

I just thought; why haven't we used the bounties template for the attacks? It would look nice on those pages. One-Winged Hawk 12:41, April 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Not a clue, but it would look nice. In the meantime here's another attempt on how a possible list could look like:


 * This nothing more than a copy paste, but it should give ideas on how a list should handle. Regardless what the list is called, I would suggest to put the user first because then we could put even have users with unnamed fruits in the list and thin down the current unnamed/unknown list. However, the unknown powers should have their own entry which should have nothing to do with this list we're trying to create. And I can only think of 3 names to go under the unknown powers, Doflamingo (could be devil fruit or just strings), Urouge (devil fruit or life return) and Laffitte (either zoan or paramecia).--Uncanny Ultrabeast 14:00, April 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * For the attacks not really sure why but it maybe because no one thought of an appropriate one. One problem of the attacks is the pics I guess. Should the table have pics for every attack or not. Too many pics maybe a lag problem and too little may make a table ugly looking.


 * For the Devil Fruit list preview, it may need some refinement in design in light of some parts. The English translation section is kinda the first and most important to be addressed. As far as it can be seen, there are a couple of things involving this section. Basically it comes down to it being split into two sections, then official English name section and the meaning section. The official English section is basically what Viz, Funi, 4kids, and whoever is calling them. The meaning section is basically what the Japanese means.


 * Second to be addressed is the types section, best to stick to just the three basic types in a general list. In lists that are found in the type pages, it maybe okay to note sub types like mythical zoan. Third to be addressed is the user section. Least important I guess but maybe a question mark when considering Blackbeard. When titled user okay as it refers to the user of the fruit's power. If it were titled as eaten by, could be a problem as we don't exactly know if Blackbeard ate another fruit or what not.


 * For the unknown/unnamed Devil Fruits, not really sure about including some or even giving some a table. Some like Marco are clear but some like Doflamingo are really disputed.Mugiwara Franky 15:39, April 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * The list can be cultivated to everyone's liking, hopefully by someone more skilled at wikia coding than myself. I did not consider that the official english and the meaning would be important but now that you mention it, it does sound like a good idea and one could skip the description since the meaning already tells what it does, which I think was also one of El Chupacabra's arguments. I would definitley keep the users instead of eaten by.


 * I suppose that one could keep the current unnamed/unknown section even though it is the least favorite part of the Devil Fruit main page for me. The section just seems to invite speculation since there already is two entries I feel should not be there in the first place (volcano guy and the chain chomp). I guess my desire to put the section in a larger list would reduce some of it's speculation. And concerning Marco and Doflamingo their difference is clear, one of them has an unnamed devil fruit while the other has an (currently) unknown power.--Uncanny Ultrabeast 17:40, April 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Mugiwara Franky, if you require an elaborate preview, I'll create one soon. It will include a list preview as well.


 * Uncanny Ultrabeast, repeating facts can't be avoided everywhere, but they should be avoided where possible. The case with the arcs and chapters is a different one.


 * MasterDeva, can you please explain why you are against the proposal?


 * To all: as for the speculative fruits, I think they should be listed in a separate section. I'll show this in my preview.El Chupacabra 15:52, April 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * If repeating is a large issue then ironically the most obvious solution is to do nothing at all. ;) Besides the repeats that the list causes are quite trivial and I don't consider that these repeats by themselves would necessitate a merger.


 * Regardless of how the "speculative" fruits are ultimately handled, I think that it is wrong to consider them "speculative" and whatever list they are put in should reflect this. I mean, we already know certain things(I'm mainly thinking of the Supernovas in which we know what their powers do) we just lack the most crucial element, which in this case is the name. While the Powers with Unknown Origins (ex. Doflamingo, Urouge) are a different matter. They are more considerably steeped in speculation and therefore should not be mixed with the Unnamed Devil Fruits.--Uncanny Ultrabeast 18:05, April 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * If you think that repating stuff is not a problem, what do you think about just expanding the Devil Fruits article (I'm working on the elaborate preview) but not turning the type articles into redirects? In this case, they would overlap in great parts. However, if you think that it isn't a problem, we can leave it like that. I already said that my intention is the expansion of the devil fruit article. I thought that turning the three articles into redirects would be a logical consequence of that. However, if the majority has no problem with repeating information, we can keep the type articles as they are along the expanded Devil Fruits article.


 * Of course these powers should not be mixed up with confirmed but unnamed fruits. I will list them as posible Devil Fruits in my preview. If you have a better title, propose it. El Chupacabra 14:56, April 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Do a preview El, because otherwise I feel we are just going around in circles. I still maintain that the type articles should be their own entities but I'm not on principle against an expansion of the current mentions of Devil Fruit types. Which brings me back to the preview, I would like to see what you think should be included and how much text the expansion requires and the preview would give me a better grasp of what your suggesting than simply talking about it does. Simultaneously it would show what functions and what doesn't.


 * I would suggest the afore mentioned Powers with Unknown Origins, not the most snappy title but I would favor it more than other variants such as "Unknown Powers". That sounds as if the powers themselves are unknown which is not exactly true, if they truly were unknown they would not be mentioned. While I would refrain from the title "Possible Devil Fruits" simply because the title leads the reader to think that the powers could be devil fruits, which I think it really shouldn't. As important as the Devil Fruits are to the One Piece mythos they are not the only source of fantastic powers. --Uncanny Ultrabeast 17:49, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

In terms of repeating stuff, it depends on the situation. In the arc and chapter pages, while it looks like they're repeating stuff it's not completely repeating per say. One page is describing events that happened within the context of an arc. The other is describing events that happened within the context of a single chapter. One tends to be more of generalized outlook of events while the other tends to be more of a detailed outlook of events as divided by chapters.

In expanding the page, that is kinda doable. More information about the types of Devil Fruits in the main Devil Fruit page can be applicable. It however doesn't necessarily have to be same information word per word as that could be somewhat of hard feat. Also it doesn't necessarily have to be all of the information found in the separate different type pages. Some info like extremely unique info like how Zoan Devil Fruits can be feed to inanimate objects, can be mentioned in the main Devil Fruit page but would be more detailed in the other pages. Other info like type specific trivia or the like however would be more suited in the types page rather than the main Devil Fruit page due to their circumstances.

For a possible Devil Fruit list, while it sounds like a solution it kinda has it's bumps. The only weakness it presents is that it could be filled up with all sorts of speculative guessing by people. However, that can be somewhat overlooked depending on what's written.Mugiwara Franky 17:39, April 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm kind of curious to know what you consider "bumps"? What El has suggested that should go into such a list, like Japanese name, English Name and User, I can't really see how speculation can enter into the fray or is the suggestion already sufficent to stave of speculation?--Uncanny Ultrabeast 17:57, April 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm working on the preview and I'll put it into the sandbox when I'm ready. Mugiwara Franky, if we'll just expand the article and keep the other three, the loss of info you feared will be a non-issue. As to the trivia, I intend to include much of the trivia from all the sections into the main text, but you'll see it when I'll present the preview. As to the speculative fruits: I think we should only include resonable speculations. They must be quite concrete and possible. For example Dragon's alleged Wind or Storm logia or Doflamingos Control fruit should be included. On the other hand, the Hito Hito no Mi: Model Female or fruits merely proposed by some fans should not. El Chupacabra 13:24, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Elaborate Preview
I've done a more elaborate preview in the Sandbox. I've rewritten the fruits list, included all of trivia into other sections and made the type sections more uniform. What do you think about this layout? Would you agree to put this into the main article on Devil Fruits? El Chupacabra 15:01, April 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * For the types section, by simply browsing it, it somewhat looks almost like a copy and paste thing. There are parts that are definitely not copy and paste but they're somewhat not easily noticed right away. Considering this is an expansion of introductory sections and not a merging, some content from the separate pages really look like they only belong on the separate pages rather than the sections. The three sections of the types of Devil Fruits in the main page kinda need only give an generalized idea of sorts. The separate pages, being pages, would expand on the topics on hand.


 * For the Devil Fruit list, yeah I'm not really sure if using the bounty template is working. It's somewhat too wide or so especially the entries being inputed. Certain sections may need to be more defined. The entries for the section for the name used by English adaptations may need to more defined which adaptation uses what. Saying "Diggy-Diggy Fruit/Mole-Mole Fruit" or "Cage-Cage/Bind-Bind Fruit" can only go so far in terms of identifying which one uses what. A section that tells the meaning of the Japanese is also kinda needed as to help identify the meaning of some names where there is no English adaptation equivalent or the equivalent is a bit far.


 * Overall, I'm not sure about calling the preview Elaborate.Mugiwara Franky 20:00, April 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * I kept the parts that looked good as they were. I see no reason in rewriting the same content in other words. however if you think that it looks bad, i can rewrite all the strengths and weaknesses sections into lists, similar to the zoan subcategories section. I think that the general section layout should stay as in this preview: some general information on the types, followed by lists of strengths, weaknesses and subcategories.


 * Well, do you have another idea for the list? What do you mean by saying "It's somewhat too wide or so"? Adding the reference to the english names is a good idea. As to the japanese meaning, It is always explaned in the article on the fruit. If it's useful, it can be explaned in the description section. For example Toge Toge no Mi: Allows the user to grow spikes (Japanese:toge) from their body.


 * I see that there still are things to be improved on this preview. I just wanted to show that it' more advanced thenthe first one. El Chupacabra 16:36, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

El, can you use the tabbing system as a better alternative to this? I can set the tabs up if you can't work out how to and leave the rest to you to organised, is thats okay. One-Winged Hawk 21:30, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

In general, the setup is okay, El. The sub sections of the Devil Fruit types however do need less and indeed abit of rewriting. The strengths and weaknesses of the types need not necessarily be too elaborated on the main page. Just the general facts are kinda needed. Downsizing the information about them into lists maybe a bit too unnecessary for what can be achieved better through sentences.

For the list of Devil Fruits, it just kinda feels it needs a different table setup than what is being used for the bounties. The general look of the parts of the bounty table used for description for instance is not necessarily the best choice to be used as a description section for Devil Fruits. It kinda has to do with space.
 * When used with bounties, the description part is kinda used to it's optimum. Bounty descriptions tend to be long. As an effect the space for the part gets extended and used efficiently when looked at both width and length ends.
 * When used with Devil Fruits, the description part is kinda not used to it's optimum. Since it's just a list and not a full on explanation of the Devil Fruit, just some general information is best needed. This information is usually at least one phrase such as," Allows the user to turn into smoke". Due to such short descriptions, the space for the part can somewhat look wasted at times. I mean you get this very wide part that extends from one side of the page to the other, and only a fraction of it is used. Not exactly efficient to some.

This is kinda what I meant by too wide. A little tweaking in the code of the table however can remedy this.

As to using sentences structured like "Allows the user to grow spikes (Japanese:toge) from their body." in order know the Japanese meaning of a Devil Fruit's name, it's not wrong but it's not exactly nice looking to some extent. It maybe me but putting info with parentheses in the middle of sentences like kinda looks lazy or something. I don't know exactly how to describe it but it can be bad looking. It can be especially bad looking if the info put in the parenthesis is too much like," It allows the user to become a candle (Japanese:Kyandoru, From Doru of Kyandoru. Can also mean flowing) man." or something like that. With stuff like that, it might be better if the meaning was better explained as another sentence or in another section.Mugiwara Franky 16:19, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * What about making the tabs half as wide and placing them in two rows? Like that:
 * Paramecia Canon Paramecia Filler
 * Paramecia Canon (continued) Paramecia SBS
 * This would reduce the space. However I'll need some help for this. El Chupacabra 16:39, April 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Reducing the tables' width in half would help in some areas I guess. However, it all boils down to the design of the table. I'm not sure if I'm interpreting this right but if we were to reduce the setup of the table as presented above to half and put it in two rows, it would solve the white spacing problem but it would create another problem. The problem is that the info presented would be too constricted. A little balance between spacing and compacting in the design is kinda necessary in making a proper table. To achieve that, a little more tweaking in the overall design is kinda needed.


 * This opinion however as I've said is based on the interpretation that we would use a modification of the bounty table setup presented. If a different table setup is being used in mind then okay as long as it can be shown and it fulfills the demands of such a list. If the the bounty page table setup however is the one in mind, then it's a bit of a problem.Mugiwara Franky 20:54, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Anyone care to tell this poor ol' guy
What the main pros and cons of this discusion are at present ? This is simply a lot of text and I dunno if I could stomach it all.

Remember back in my day we never had such lengthy discusions and merger proposals were the equivalent of someone spiting on your mother's grave ,after wikipedia's marvelous management of the OP list of characters page. They barely even have seperate headings going down one step (even if they can go like six), thusly lots of characters or groups don't even have their own heading and navigating it is confusing as hell , even if there is little information individualy. I even requested a split of the information they have without adding anything new and keeping the exact same references, but I got acronyms quoted at me. Remember, I used to be on wikipedia when you could even create articles as an anonymous contributor. So as you can see I'm not to keen on mergers. --New Babylon 15:08, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * The gist of the discussion so far is that it's been agreed to change from a merger to an expansion of the main article. What is being discussed currently is how to handle the expansion. Technically, it's now a different discussion since the focus has been changed.Mugiwara Franky 15:30, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Devil Fruit Type Subpages
I propose that we make the articles Paramecia, Zoan and Logia subpages of the main Devil Fruit article so it would be Devil Fruit/Paramecia, Devil Fruit/Zoan and Devil Fruit/Logia. What do you all think? GenkiMan 21:52, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

How was this missed? I agree. 19:12, July 20, 2013 (UTC)

They're fine. 19:22, July 20, 2013 (UTC)