Forum:Superhuman-strength: Deletion

I will make it quick for a change, I propose to delete our "beloved" Superhuman-strength article. (http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Superhuman_Strength).

There have been several attempts in the past to get rid of this troublesome page, but they always failed in the end because it was (apparently) a named ability/condition by Oda and thus needed an own article.

The truth is: Kairiki is simply used as an adjective to describe strength. Not necessarily superhuman, not necessarily monstrous. You can technically call the bodybuilder next door a kairiki. It is not defined. And by loosing its name, it lost its right to deserve an own page and should follow the example of Superhuman-speed and Superhuman-endurance. Deletion.

Apart from that, I will list the known reasons why this article is, in my opinion, the shame of this usually so objective wiki:


 * It suggests that the listed characters all play in the same league of power, since there is only one category and no further distinction. This especially irritates visitors that are not as informed as us. Luffy, Garp, Whitebeard, Miss Monday, Zoro, Jozu. Can you spot the flaw?

I generally understand that there seems to be a huge desire (especially between the younger editors) to point at supercool & superhuman feats, but we can do that in a objective way on the corresponding character articles. There is no need to create pages like that, unless Oda provides us with official information and naming.
 * This article was (and still is) the cause for constant edit ping-pongs between users. Not surprising, since the majority of the listed characters are there because of speculation and editor opinions. A famous example (albeit funny): Ivankov is super strong because he can lift his huge head. Another one? Marco kicks Aokiji a great distance without the help of gravity. Without the help of gravity. Simply embarrassing, if this would have been the first and only page I visited I would have labeled this wiki a trashy fansite.
 * Next I quote Sff9, because I can't describe it better: "It's exactly like someone decided to make a "beautiful person" category, adding people in it only if they were textually qualified as "beautiful" in the manga."

I hope we can finally get rid of this page. I will open a formal vote after gathering a few more opinions. Thanks for participating, 23:08, June 12, 2011 (UTC)

Vote
VOTE IS CLOSED.

Right, several editors voiced their opinion. It is either deleting the page or keep it as it is.

Lets hold a one week vote to have an official result. According to the The Magic 1000 rule forum, you have to be registered for at least 3 months and have 300 edits in order to vote.

The vote ends on June 21.


 * Delete the article and the category.
 * 22:16, June 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * 22:21, June 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * 23:22, June 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * 23:38, June 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * 01:12, June 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * 海賊姫 01:45, June 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * 04:05, June 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Ruxax 09:16, June 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Klobis 10:48, June 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Monkey.D.Me 00:01, June 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Klobis 10:48, June 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Monkey.D.Me 00:01, June 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep the page and delete the category.


 * Keep the category and delete the page.
 * 22:23, June 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep everything as it is.
 * SeaTerror 18:10, June 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Black Leg Sanji 04:41, June 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * Neutral/Don't care
 * One-Winged Hawk 22:45, June 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * //I'm winning anyway(voted here for a change!)

Discussion
And before someone asks, Jopfan provided the necessary translation infos, many thanks for that. 23:08, June 12, 2011 (UTC)

I say we lose both the page and the category. 23:13, June 12, 2011 (UTC)

I know this page is a real troublesome thing, but if "Kairiki" (Japanese romanization) exists, doesn't it make the page official in name? If anything, the only thing we do NOT do is list out who has the strength, but rather just explain what "Superhuman Strength" is. 02:18, June 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * Of course, eliminating the page altogether does help sort out the vagueness of the whole ordeal, so I'm also up for that option. 02:19, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind if we kept the page and just cut a lot out of it, but what I really want to get rid of is the category. 02:39, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

I think we should keep both and still add characters to it. There are some very obvious examples such as Whitebeard who belong on the page or with the category. SeaTerror 03:18, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

If we kept them, then the arguments would still persist and the issue won't go away. If we just explain how to get it or something, then the reader can just figure out what characters it applies to and draw their own conclusions instead of having a list of characters that sparks argument. 03:25, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

Then lock the article so IPs can't edit it. SeaTerror 03:29, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, but add characters you say, people kept arguing Hancock being a user or not, above others. Really too vague to keep. 05:48, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

I agree, and it's not really an effective category if it applies to everyone. It's like making a Characters category. 06:19, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

That's really too bad for all the reference work (character A is kairiki because he has been qualified as such in Chapter XXX... Character B is kairiki because he outpowered character A...) but it's really pointless. This page makes it appear like "kairiki" is a kind of power like haki or devil fruits, with a clear definition, which it is not. People calling others "kairiki" does not mean they are in a special category, they just say "OMG he's super strong!!!!1". This makes no sense to have such a page (unless it is worked out as Jinbe proposed on the talk page, listing ways to achieve a super strength) and such a category.

I say definitely remove the category and the list of "users". I understand that there are some "obvious" examples that should be mentioned, but as pointed out before, the category suggests that the listed user are all in the same league, not to mention the troubles of deciding if a character has it or not. If you want to mention some characters, maybe you can do it as examples of superhuman strength (like Whitebeard stopping a ship). For the page itself, I'm ok with keeping it, but I think it should be treated the same way as superhuman speed&endurance, so since I don't think anybody wants to revive them, then it should deleted as well.

@Yata

No it doesn't make it an official name, it is still not defined. It is used as an adjective to describe strong people (but this could be any level, not necessarily superhuman). And more important: It's not from Oda.

See, it basically just lost its "name" (which it technically never had). Think about it, do we create a page for "idiots in One Piece" because some characters were called a baka at one point? Should we list them as well? Maybe together with ways how to become a baka?

@Seaterror

It surprises me that you are in favor of this article. You have something against observations in the trivia section, but speculating on the abilities of a character is ok? Even giving it a name that isn't confirmed or even exactly defined? What would you like to call it? Monstrous strength? Superhuman strength? Above average-strength? Characters that are stronger than Usopp?

It's not like we would stop calling characters strong, if they did something noteworthy it will be still on the their corresponding articles. We just stop playing Oda by introducing categories that do not exist.

@Sff9

Well, true I suggested to revamp the page, but that was prior to the talk and clarification with Jopfan. I thought that kairiki is indeed a named condition by Oda. But it is not.

@Leviathan

Exactly, a page like that basically opens pandoras box. What would keep people from creating a page for every crap? Super speed, super endurance, super beauty etc.

@Dancepowderer

Well, I don't have anything to add to your comments, but I thought it would be rude to reply to everyone but you. Good that you bring the category problem up, of course it needs to be deleted as well.

Anyway, we have brilliant and objective articles that cover everything that is noteworthy and named. Rokushiki, Devil fruits, the strength of certain races like Giants and Fishmen, we even perfectly cover the extraordinary abilities of Humans. On top we have individual remarks on character pages.

Why is there a need to invent a name and mash information into one vague article? 13:37, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

As I said, I'm for articles-equality, so if we keep super strength we should also create super speed, super endurance and let people create useless page like beauty and such. So, at this point, delete it. And that page was born from miss Monday attack, right? Well, all characters name their techniques in different-fantasy names, and I think that was indented as a joke as a comparison between her "strength" and a "real" super-human strength (Zoro's).

P.S.: I'm TOTALLY OK with creating the "baka page"! Together with the way to become one... ; )


 * Agree with deletion of both the page and the category..and lol creating Super Beauty page!


 * As weird as it sounds, you not suppose to describe a character as "beautiful" on a page unless the character is regarded by either arthour or in-universe characters. Why? Because its a opinionated term and one's opinion of beauty is not another's. One-Winged Hawk 14:26, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

Like with Super Speed, its a "place holder" page meant to be adapted later on and was part fo a sorting process I never got around to. I only defended these pages while I was sorting them, that sorting process never happened and no one wants them anymore it seems. I'm fine because no Super speed is gone, the sorting process is already ruined, thus I can't finish what I started. I;m not a regular anymore anyway so it doesn't matter whatever I was doing previously.

As I said before I can't really hold my own pages like this and crib about Joekido's, yet Joekido's remain despite my protests and you all want this to go. I honestly can't remember what I was doing, it was 2 or 3 years ago when I started those pages. At this point I don't mind if they stay or go. The hassle caused by having them here made me stop caring for them within 6 months of their set up. I think thats why I forgot what I was doing with them or stopped caring about their existence. Further more, "super endurance" was what made me top my mind on things, after that I thought things were already going too far anyway in directions I didn't want them to go when I was setting them up. :-/ One-Winged Hawk 14:24, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

Since "Kairiki" does not count as official, I now have complete favor in getting rid of this page and the category altogether. I only took Kairiki from the Kairiki Destroyers and used that as a basis for the romanization, but if it's not good enough, then let's just delete the Superhuman things altogether. 16:51, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

Lovely. Going to open a vote this evening - I want a clear decision on that one. Nothing major, just something official for future debates, which hopefully never happen. At least concerning this article. 17:08, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

Right, vote is up 22:17, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

Damn rule:|:( 22:24, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

This is way to easy. I smell a trap. 16:16, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

I have a very valid reason why I want it to stay. I like it and am bias about it. :P At least I can keep it in its current form like I just did. I almost forgot. If articles get deleted we need to archive the talk pages in someway. Maybe start a forum for the talk pages to be archived. SeaTerror 18:09, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

That's not a good enough reason to keep it. Also, the deletion log is the archive. 18:25, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

We can create a new page "talks archive" and move all the deleted pages' talks as subpage of it. So that page will be like an index. Or we can simply delete the talk pages as well too, but some are worth to keep them.

You didn't notice the :P? The talk pages shouldn't be deleted but at least they should be archived. Maybe just create the forum and list and link to every talk page that still exists. SeaTerror 18:31, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

I do note theres not an option for anyone to attempt to fix it up, but then again its been there for a couple of years now and even I can't remember what I was going to do with the page. Time ran out on this page ages ago. Since Super speed got deleted I got disheartened to do anything with these pages at all, even if I could remember what it was I was going here I'd not want to do it. -_-

But you know what, if someone wants one final crack at it before the poll closes, then it would make the poll results invalid wouldn't it? So whoever want to revamp the pages has only until the poll runs out to make this poll worthless. If the entire page evolves to something different then what we were voting on is meaningless.

Yeah, see, I know the loophole with these polls and that is it... And its not a clever loophole at that its more of "captain obivous" speaking. ^_^' One-Winged Hawk 19:17, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing to fix Angel. It is a fan made category, and unless people decide to allow the creation of random categories, it will never have its place. That was the reason why the other superhuman pages are gone already, superhuman strength only survived because of the "official" name, which it technically never had.

So, the first step to "crack" at anything would be to allow unconfirmed categories. However, I'm happy that the result of the vote (so far) speaks for itself. 19:57, June 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Thats why I don't see it happening myself, I can see the results for myself. I was just mentioning it for the one person who wanted the page to stay what would have to happen to save it at this point. But, I have mentioned this before. Honestly, if the few people who want it to stay so badly really wanted it to stay they should have done so sooner. I'm not going to step in at this point because this page and Super sped caused too many arguement, I ended up hating both pages an regreting I ever created them in the first place. I mentioned before its one of the reasons I left, the other was sudden people stepping in and without reason just renaming everything, leaving those who didn't do things like read Green being left in the dark.


 * I'm just glad this page is finally being resolved just as I was glad that Super Speed was finally resolved when it did. I mentioned all of the same things pretty much with Super speed and as with Super Speed, no one did a thing to "save" it. One-Winged Hawk 21:02, June 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * I honestly see no reason for this page to even exist. To me, it's incredibly self-explanitory. Even if it was a real thing Oda stated, who doesn't know what "super-human strength" is? It's strength beyond a normal human's. Wow! What a reason to make an article on it! /sarcasm Uknownada 04:08, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * I honestly see no reason for this page to even exist. To me, it's incredibly self-explanitory. Even if it was a real thing Oda stated, who doesn't know what "super-human strength" is? It's strength beyond a normal human's. Wow! What a reason to make an article on it! /sarcasm Uknownada 04:08, June 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * Drop the sarcasm, its out of place! There WAS a very good reason once for it existing, but as I keep saying it, I just forgot why now.


 * Knowing luck I'll remember what that was a few months down the line or a year later. One-Winged Hawk 10:15, June 18, 2011 (UTC)

Post voting discussion
Right, the vote is over and the result is clear: Superhuman-strength will be deleted.

Congratulations everyone, the beast is slain. 00:11, June 21, 2011 (UTC)