File talk:Ace Saves Luffy.png

File Discussion
I find the previous version much better in regards to detail and the quality is good enough,some seem to disagree so id like to know which one should stay,the previous or the most recent one. User:X-RAPTOR 22:14, November 29, 2012 (UTC)

I think the current one look shit but the older one could just be updated to HD easily by someone who isn't lazy.

The "drawing" is better on X's version (notably Ace's face and Akainu's fist), if it were of higher res it would be perfect.

The one from the anime looks significantly better in terms of art. However, it's the same picture in the end. Let's go with the second file for being larger and HQ, and also a tad clearer. 22:25, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

Edit War
Both images have good quality. However, the manga image lacks colorization and the anime image lacks detail (necklace). 02:05, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

The anime image is better. 04:43, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

The anime image can describe the scene just fine. 10:12, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

The anime version lacks Ace necklace which is a problem. Another issue I've noticed is censorship in the image (lack of blood coming from Ace's wound and Luffy's injuries have been toned down) and lack of art detail in general (Akainu's fist for example). MasterDeva (talk) 16:08, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

The manga version is 100x better quality and doesn't have the plot hole of the necklace being missing. The only reason anyone would prefer the anime version is color, which isn't a priority when it comes to these things. M4ND0N (talk) 19:56, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

The anime image doesn't cause a plot-hole. The necklace could have been recreated or something. It sounds far-fetched, but that's why minor details don't usually get explained. I say the anime image gets the job done, and coloring is something nice. 20:01, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

We never pick photos soley based on them being colored or not, rather whether or not they convey the scene as well as the manga. In my eyes it doesn't, because the art is better in the manga panel as well as having the necklace intact. On top of that Ace is bloodied up more and you can see Akainu better. The anime also inverts the scene, although in a literal sense from a different viewing angle but in my eyes the viewing angle is far better in the manga version as well. Does it convey the scene of Ace getting fatally wounded? That's another big question. the photo of him lying dead is a different story but in the anime it doesn't even look like Akainu wounded him, because it lacks blood and it looks like any other attack Ace recieved and appears to have phased through him, while in the manga panel you can visually see that Akainu burned through his vital organs through the boiling flesh around the borders, so that's my argument.

Not to mention this. Sure you can make the case that they rebuilt his necklace but that's making assumptions of information that isn't canon. In the canon his necklace remains intact and still on his body after the WB pirates collect it, and that's how they're able to use it for the grave marker. I highly doubt if it did shatter in the manga, they'd waste all that time collecting pieces of the necklace from around the battlefield that's already covered in rubble and destruction from Blackbeard's assault. especially with all the wounded there, so that's not exactly an argument to be made. Not only is it non-canon but it's not realistically viable as an excuse, so we should really just go with the manga panel for the superior art and the fact that it shows Ace's wound and not just a ring of fire coming from Ace's chest.

M4ND0N (talk) 00:45, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

I like it when people use arguments instead of using one liners like "X is better" and are done with it. I agree with the reasons you've stated above. MasterDeva (talk) 14:14, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Can we get an admin to help decide this please? So far it's 2 for it and 2 against it. I've made my points, now all that's left is for a mod to help decide who makes a better case. If we change this one, we also need to change the picture of him dead as well. M4ND0N (talk) 18:46, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Admins don't decide things like that. I say use the anime version. SeaTerror (talk) 06:18, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Like I said, there's no justifiable reason to use the anime version unless you're really that desperate for everything to be all colored in the article. So far nobody in favor of using the anime version has presented a good reason as to why we shouldn't use the manga pic besides unknownada who made her case about the color, which even though isn't a good reason is still the only real reason anyone here has given, while I've already given several on why the manga version should be used. M4ND0N (talk) 22:21, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

We run things by poll. It doesn't matter if reasons are "good". SeaTerror (talk) 23:13, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

I know, I'm just trying to get my point across so maybe some of you can see why me and Deva are opting to change it, that's why I made an extensive list of reasons during the discussion. We honestly have used manga images for a lot less than this, and whether or not you consider the lack of necklace "major" or not, the fact remains that it's non-canon. M4ND0N (talk) 01:31, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

I think you need to learn what non-canon means. SeaTerror (talk) 01:43, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

An event that occurred in the manga. Anything the anime adds that doesn't happen in the manga is filler and non-canon. Did Ace's necklace shatter in the manga? No? Okay then.. well then I guess it isn't canon. The fact remains that filler isn't defined by episodes and original story arc. Everything Toei does to extend the amount of time used in the episode so they can stuff 1 chapter into each episode is filler, even if it's mere seconds of it. M4ND0N (talk) 05:43, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

Slightly changing a CANON scene does not make the scene non-canon. Extending a scene does not make it non-canon. It would be slight filler at the most. As long as they used canon to create the scene then the anime part of it is still canon. SeaTerror (talk) 05:47, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

Of course the scene itself is canon. I never meant to say it wasn't, I think there was a misunderstanding here. I only meant that Ace losing his necklace, and that alone is filler and differentiates the actual pacing of the scene. Because of that, the actual chain of events from the canon plot is Ace getting hit and that's all, no shattered necklace. You know how we changed Whitebeard's death photo because he didn't get his head blown off in the manga + second hole in his chest? I think this is a similar situation. M4ND0N (talk) 15:48, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

Not really. The image about Whitebeard getting his face blown off was the actual whole purpose of the image, and since having a half-face contributed to the death, all images after it need to have a half-face. But the necklace has no connection to Ace's death. Whether it's there or not, the purpose of the image still stands: Akainu is punching a hole through Ace in front of Luffy. That's the whole point of the image. The necklace is irrelevant to it and completely unimportant. Your point might stand if say, Akainu's fist didn't go entirely through Ace. If the image was that, it would ruin the whole plot of the image. But the inclusion or exclusion of the necklace is overall unimportant and doesn't add nor subtract to the scene. 16:55, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

In the case of Whitebeard's death, the changes were physical and not "cosmetic" in nature. In other words I don't think comparing those two as similar things is correct. Either way, there are plenty of other reasons that warrant the manga version over the anime. For example, the positioning of the characters, the visual effects details and shading used that gives a sense of depth to the image. I'll explain a little what I mean by the positioning of the characters. In the manga version, the emphasis is given on three interconnected things: Luffy, Ace and Akainu.

The shading used, as well as the close up focus on Luffy give emphasis to him who is the witness of Ace's death. Luffy is seen in close display, in other words, through the reader's point of view. That special attention to detail in this scene is important, because the author is telling us, the reader, that Luffy himself is important. Next the focus swifts to Ace who uses his own body to protect his little brother from the ferocious Akainu. More specifically, the focus moves from Luffy (the observer), to Akainu's fist (the cause) to Ace (the recipient). The traces of blood around Ace's torso showcasing the source of his suffering, which in turn is reflected by his facial expression and further illustrated by him coughing up blood. Ultimately the focus reaches Akainu, the one whose attack was clearly targeting Luffy as is evident by the positioning of the characters.

That's what the manga tells us. The anime on the other hand leaves much to be desired... The focus on Luffy is gone which lessens the emotional impact of that scene (Ace protecting his brother) and the complete lack of blood results as Ace portrayed more as pissed off or frustrated rather than in pain. I believe these are reasons enough to revert to the manga version. MasterDeva (talk) 17:15, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

Not to mention you can see blood surrounding the outline of Akainu's fist in the manga photo, showcasing the fact that he did in fact wound Ace. this is supported by the amount of blood used.. while in the anime photo, there's no blood. It really just looks like the attack phased through him in the anime version, so again superiority of the art for the reasons Deva described, and the fact that his necklace is gone which simply didn't occur in the manga and that's enough reason to change it in my eyes. M4ND0N (talk) 21:18, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

I've already mentioned the blood part in my post above "...traces of blood around Ace's torso..." didn't you read what I wrote...? MasterDeva (talk) 21:40, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

So where's the poll? SeaTerror (talk) 22:55, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah I think we have enough people to start one now. And that's my bad Deva I must've skimmed what you wrote. sorry M4ND0N (talk) 05:40, June 19, 2013 (UTC)

I would like to see more arguments from the participants of this discussion first before we start a poll. Proper discussion should be conducted to begin with before starting to vote. MasterDeva (talk) 06:32, June 19, 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. M4ND0N (talk) 14:53, June 19, 2013 (UTC)

You've made some interesting points, MasterDeva. Though I would still support the anime version mostly for its color, justice as a plot image, and consistency with the rest of the page, I guess I wouldn't mind if it was manga. 20:42, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

The only difference is that they flipped sides and Ace's necklace is missing, Nada. SeaTerror (talk) 21:13, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

Bump. MasterDeva (talk) 20:56, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

I think it's time to make a poll. 21:17, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

It's been time for a poll for weeks now. SeaTerror (talk) 21:46, July 4, 2013 (UTC)

Poll everything!! No seriously, what are we polling on, manga vs. anime, again?

Poll
You must have had an account for 3 months and have 300 edits in order to vote.

This poll will decide which version of the image will be used to convey Ace's sacrifice.

Which version should be used?
 * The version from the anime?
 * The version from the manga?
 * The version from the manga?
 * The version from the manga?
 * The version from the manga?


 * 1) M4ND0N (talk) 17:06, July 8, 2013 (UTC)