Forum:Consistency in Translation

So here's an issue we have on this wiki. There's no consistency on what gets translated and what doesn't. No matter which side you're on (translated or direct), you have to agree that every article should match. We use "Kairoseki" instead of "Seastone". We use "no Mi" instead of "Fruit". We say "Santoryu Ogi: Rokudo no Tsuji" instead of "Three Swords Style Secret Technique: Crossing of Six Paths". On the other hand, we have "Devil Fruit" and not "Akuma no Mi". We have "Fishman" instead of "Gyojin". We use "Thousand-Year Trees" instead of "Sen'nen Boku". If we're going to translate some of them, we can't be selective. We have to translate them all. If we're not going to, then put the others back into Romanized Japanese. Now, I'm personally for translation, but I'm just here to open discussion for now. 23:45, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

Discussion
I support translating everything except for the Devil Fruits, since those are more debatable (would we change Gomu to Gum or Rubber?) and keeping the "no mi" is consistent with the name itself. The term "Devil Fruit" isn't really as difficult to translate, so it stays as Devil Fruit. I think there was a topic on this not too long ago.

But everything else? Yeah, those can be English. Why the hell do we have Kairoseki? I don't even think the weeaboos use that. 01:05, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Ryu said one or the other therefore if something is untranslated then he wants it all translated or everything untranslated. Attack names are also the same situation with Devil Fruits anyway. SeaTerror (talk) 01:18, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

I said that I wanted to open discussion. I'm not pushing for anything other than acknowledgement that we do, in fact, have inconsistency on the wiki. Specific cases can be fought over (Should Whitebeard be Shirohige? Should Akainu be Red Dog?), but for now, let's look at the big picture. Do we want to translate or not? 01:51, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

In general, I support translating. Stuff like Kairoseki definitely needs to go. I disagree with Nada on the fruit names (that was my forum, btw). However, I think it might be best to leave technique names untranslated, because they tend to include so many foreign words. If we translate the Japanese, then why not the French? And the parts that were originally in English won't stand out anymore if we translate everything.

I'd like to bring up two highly debated cases, though: Yonko and Shichibukai. Now, Yonko has a pretty simple translation, so I might support translating it. But Shichibukai - Would we use the inexact but appealing "Seven Warlords of the Sea" or the literal but awkward "Seven Military Seas"? 02:19, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

I also think that the way we handle techniques right now is best. A lot of them are puns, too, which would be lost if we translated them. I'm still on the fence, though, about fighting styles. Santoryu or three-sword style?

I think I would prefer "Seven Warlords of the Sea", but I don't have a good argument for it other than it sounds better. 02:56, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

It seems there's also some inconsistency when it comes to translating fighting styles: Rokushiki, Hasshoken, Santoryu etc. aren't translated, but Black Leg Style, Life Return, Art of Weather etc. are. 03:21, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

I brought this issue up in the past, but apparently it was passively forgotten eventually. I agree, we need to completely revamp the naming process. All Devil Fruit names are in pure Japanese, so why not half the fighting styles? Or better yet, reverse the entire process, turning it all into Gum Gum Fruit, Three Swords Style, etc. since this is an English website. 03:48, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

* shrug * I think it's fine the way it is. From what I can tell, the only articles left with untranslated titles are the ones about things or concepts of strictly One Piece-original naming (Like in Japanese, you wouldn't really see the word Yonko, Shichibukai, or Kairoseki outside of One Piece context, ever). I do the same thing when I'm trying to translate SBS pen names; I translate the ones that make sense in and out of context and I leave the totally made up ones that I can't decipher. It's like "Sushi" haha, there is no suitable translation so we just use the Japanese name. The only exception I see here is Santoryu; it exists out of One Piece context and makes perfect sense to even non OP fans, so I would change that to Three-Swords Style. 04:37, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

So, JOP, how do you feel about World Noble, Pirate King, and Brownbeard? 04:43, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure fighting with three swords like that is original Oda. SeaTerror (talk) 04:51, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

World Noble (Sekai Kizoku): Both Sekai (world) and Kizoku (noble) exist separately and can stand on their own (as opposed to Rokushiki for example, where although Roku (6) can stand on its own, Shiki doesn't really work by itself) so it should be fine as is (translated)

Pirate King (same deal as above, Kaizoku (Pirate) Ou (King) both can stand alone and mean something so translated is fine)

Brownbeard: Now this one is kind of tricky, I don't exactly have strong feelings for either side but since it's basically the same as Blackbeard (kurohige) which is an existing concept but only Black replaced with Brown, I say translated is fine for this as well. 05:00, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

And to ST: I dunno, maybe it is @@ but going from the brownbeard stuff^ I'd say Santoryu isn't a new concept either, only inspired (Two Sword Style [Nitoryu] definitely exists elsewhere hence Santoryu makes sense out of context) 05:02, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

I would just like to say that we don't have to choose consistency everywhere. What we can choose is to strive for greater consistency than what we have now. But perfect consistency is practically unattainable. We can (and have) chosen inconsistency for years. Most manga/anime culture revolves around some level of inconsistency with translations. I think things like Kairosekai should be translated to English, because it smoothly translates. The ease of translating things like Attack names vary, so I understand why we have one rule that forces us to leave all untranslated. I think case-by-case decisions is acceptable for this, we just have a few cases now that need reevaluation. 06:33, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Being english i sometimes have trouble finding the article i want because they are in Japanese but it really isn't too hard. The only thing that i would say is just redirect the english names to the Japanese titled article. Most of them seem like they do already so i really don't see that big of a problem.ASL Pirates (talk) 13:41, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

If attacks and techniques are left untranslated then you can't translate Santoryu either. The article title would say three sword style while the rest of it would be untranslated for each attack. SeaTerror (talk) 20:14, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Kairoseki doesn't really smoothly translate because the literal meaning is different from the commonly known term (Seastone vs Kai 海 Sea Ro 楼 Watchtower Seki 石 Stone). And to ST: why can't the title be translated and its contents partially "untranslated"? The literal translations are right next to the attack names in articles anyway. I agree with ASL, redirects should do the job. 22:11, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

We don't have to use literal translations every time. And we don't; Celestial Dragons would literally be "Heavenly Dragon Folk", but we use the simpler term. There was a poll about leaving it untranslated recently, but "Celestial Dragon" won 12-1. Similarly, we don't have to leave Kairoseki untranslated nor call it "Sea Watchtower Stone". We can just call it Seastone - It's simple and it works. 22:53, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Because that's doing half translations. Which is exactly why so many people were against translating the Devil Fruit names. SeaTerror (talk) 00:16, February 26, 2015 (UTC)

I'm mostly against translation and, if we had to pick between "all translated" and "all romanized," I would prefer reversion of all terms to their romanized versions. Let's look at this from a real-life standpoint. There are plenty of terms from foreign languages that we don't bother translating. For example, taichichuan (or taiqiquan, whichever romanization you prefer). The individual Chinese characters for it have their own meanings, yet we don't go around calling it "supreme ultimate fist." This would also apply to objects (we don't translate katana) or titles without an English equivalent (we translate the Chinese Huang Di to Emperor, but we don't translate Shogun). Treating the world of One Piece as another country, I feel as though we should also not translate terms specific to it. Kairouseki, Shichibukai, Santouryu. We're not finding these things in real life, so we should treat them as foreign terms. Having a note on the page providing the closest English equivalent would be fine. MizuakiYume (talk) 05:45, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

^agree 15:50, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

Too bad we don't all know Japanese like you two. 16:59, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

Kage, even if you don't know japanese, you know what people mean when they say "sushi", "ninja", "samurai" or "karate", right? 18:09, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

Yes. But those are terms that relate to aspects of the Japanese culture and have been borrowed into other languages decades ago. "Kairoseki", "Santoryu", "Yonko" etc. aren't part of the Japanese culture, they're part of the fantasy world of One Piece. And they're formed from words that have clear English equivalents. 18:44, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

If you support Yonkou being translated then you have to support Shichibukai being translated since they are both titles. SeaTerror (talk) 19:04, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

Not really. Yonko translates to "Four Emperor(s)" and Shichibukai translates to something like "Seven Military Armed Sea(s)". The former has a simple literal translation, while the latter just doesn't sound right if you translate it literally. 19:58, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

They're both titles therefore they have to be treated exactly the same. SeaTerror (talk) 20:42, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

Not really. We should just translate on a case by case basis. This all depends on how well the term in question translates. Four Emperors sounds just fine in English but Seven Military Armed Seas makes no sense in English and sounds like word salad. 21:21, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

Ok. So as long as we create all necessary redirects and mention the most popular english translations in the first couple of words of the article as we already mostly do, I still don't see a problem with the untranslated article titles. Same goes with attack names. See my arguments above. The real problem I'm seeing here is the term (original or translated- and if so, which?) we want to use when we refer to the object/technique/place/idea in  other articles. Now there, I can see a problem for English-only speakers. Though they'll probably be able to find out what the word means as soon as they enter the term into our search bar (or even just click the already provided link), this is mostly a matter of convenience. We can go about this several ways:


 * 1) Leave all the terms untranslated. Let the readers do the work of finding out what they mean if they're interested enough.
 * 2) Still use original terms, but note the meaning of the word when first used in any given article. (I imagine this can cause a clutter.)
 * 3) Use the most popular or widely known translation.
 * 4) It depends on the situation.

Personally, I don't really mind the use of translations when referring the the word in other articles, but as others have pointed out, there are just some words out there (i.e. Devil Fruit names, etc.) that'll take some getting used to, while for other terms, it will definitely be hard to find a good, solid translation that we can be confident in consistantly using. 21:29, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

Let's be clear. This is no problem with untranslated article titles. There is also no problem with translated article titles. This is entirely an issue of preference, and it's obvious that the community is split. 22:44, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

Bahhh. Are we talking about article titles or the usage of original vs translated terms on the wiki in general? @@ 22:53, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

Personally I'd prefer to use the official English terms, but I don't think that they would entirely work; Although it's somewhat outdated, I think the main points of the Japanese Vs English names page still stand: the official English names (never mind the fan translations) are not consistent; for example Den Den Mushi is translated as Snail-O-Phone by Viz but as Transponder Snail by FUNimation, and even then some things are rarley even translated in the first place (such as Haki). Plus there's the fact that some readers might know English but not be familiar with the English releases. If there's one version that most people are going to familiar with, it's the Japanese version and not the various official and unofficial translations out there. As long as translations are easy to find on the term/subject's article then I don't think it would cause too many problems. i.e. if someone was unfamiliar with the term Shinsekai they could just click on it, read  "Shinsekai (New World) refers to the second half of the Grand Line" and immediately understand the term. LostTL (talk) 20:09, March 15, 2015 (UTC)

No since this is the English wiki and so many scanlation sites/fansub sites exist people would know the various non official English versions more than the official English version. Same thing applies to the original Japanese version. Unless you're implying most people reading this wiki know Japanese and read the RAWs. SeaTerror (talk) 01:42, March 16, 2015 (UTC)

There is a particular matter of partial naming: Fishman Karate instead of Gyojin Karate. Merman Gujutsu instead of Ningyo Gujutsu or Merman Weapon Techniques. We'd be going Gomu Gomu Fruit if we don't revamp those. 01:52, April 21, 2015 (UTC)

Karate doesn't count since it's used in English too. SeaTerror (talk) 02:00, April 21, 2015 (UTC)

Ningyo Gujutsu or Merman Weapon Techniques, not in-between (Merman Gujutsu). And if we choose Ningyo Gujutsu, we should shift Fishman Karate to Gyojin Karate, just to be consistent, as we have to do Gyojin Jujutsu (Fishman Jujutsu). 23:37, April 25, 2015 (UTC)

We are having another issue with Flower Country, turning it to Kano Country. So if that goes through (seemingly would as there is no argument there), then I suggest we start turning Mermen Gujutsu into Ningyo Gujutsu and so on. As for naming fighting styles, maybe Black Leg Style alone would remain English, since the attacks named are all not in Japanese (French, correct me if I'm wrong), so that would be a huge discrepancy: Japanese named style, French named techniques. 03:01, May 23, 2015 (UTC)

I personally think we should translate things like 海楼石 (Kairoseki) to Seastone. Some people may say that is a half translation, but seastone is simple and makes sense in literal english. When translated literally it is Sea Watchtower Stone. But changing Sea Watchtower Stone to Seastone is only a minor compromise, and doesn't really atek away from the original meaning. I think we have to accept that sometimes with half-translations there will be minor compromises, but it's okay as long as it isn't a major compromise, like when ゴムゴム (gomu) is translated to gum.

I think it's also important that everything that we do translate makes literal sense. For example, the Gears should be translated as Second Gear or Gear Two. Yes, ギア2 romanized is Gia Sekando, which sounds closer to Gear Second when translated, but it is not literal english.--DuelMaster93 (talk) 04:22, May 23, 2015 (UTC)

@Yata: Using "Gyojin Karate" etc. would actually be inconsistent with the fact that in every other instance of the term, we use the translation: Fishmen, Fishman Island, Fishman District, Fishman Pirates. Also, Merman Combat - There's no way to make this consistent with that system, because it's given as Merman Combat (Māman Konbatto) in the first place. Your argument is that leaving "Gujutsu" untranslated is wrong, but I don't agree. Japanese martial arts like "karate", "jujutsu" etc. are called as such even in English, so it makes sense to leave Gujutsu as is.

P.S. I still support "Gomu Gomu Fruit" and so on. 13:31, May 23, 2015 (UTC)

Seastone isn't a half translation since that is completely in English. What Kage said in his last sentence is an example of a half translation. Also Gear Second still makes sense in English as a literal translation. We should just vote on individual names since there is absolutely no way to go one way or the other 100%. Consistency does not have to be that asinine. SeaTerror (talk) 07:49, May 24, 2015 (UTC)

Alright, let's try to resolve this. To simplify things, I've made some separate sections. Feel free to add more if you think of any. 20:41, May 24, 2015 (UTC)

Translating 海楼石 (Kairoseki) to Seastone isn't a full translation since we are ignoring the middle character (楼), and translating seastone back to Japanese is 海石 (Umiseki). I think using the official translation, Sea-Prism Stone, is the best option, cause even though it isn't entirely accurate it's better then half-translating or using watchtower. Watchtower to Prism is a minor compromise. Like I stated before, we can accept minor compromises. Yes, Gear Second is simple enough that it makes sense in English, but it is not grammatically correct in literal English. You can't put a adjective after a noun. We are an EngLish wiki not an EngRish wiki. I personally believe that when we do choose to translate, that it is as grammatically correct as possible in literal English.

As for Shichibukai, based on the context, in proper English it would translate to 'Seven Military Officers of the Seas', as 武 could also be translated to 'Military Officer' or 'Military Man'. The English definition of Warlord is 'Military Leader' or 'Military Commander' in a warlike nation. So based on that, Warlord in my opinion is an accurate enough translation, and is only a very minor compromise. That leaves us with 'The Seven Warlords of the Seas'. I think it can work in English if we translate based on the context of how it's used. For example, when referring to the entire group we can call them 'The Seven Warlords of the Seas' and just simply call them Warlord when referring to just one.--DuelMaster93 (talk) 05:29, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

I just gave you an example of an actual half translation. A half translation is literally something that merges English and Japanese like the example of "Gomu Gomu Fruit" Sea Prism is wrong since that isn't even close to the actual translation. Gear Second is still correct in literal English too. It makes sense grammatically so that solves that issue. Titles/names should never be translated. SeaTerror (talk) 17:54, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

Oh come on. This wiki is for English-readers to understand. It's not like a guy who only knows French would come in and read this to gain an understand on what One Piece is. We need to use as much English as possible, better to comply with the "official" English version too, like VIZ (if they use Sea Prism Stone instead of Seastone, Giolla instead of Jora). 18:10, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

Viz is wrong in those cases. SeaTerror (talk) 19:21, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

We have no obligation to use the "official English version" names. We have our own translators for Japanese. This Wiki is first and foremost based on the original Japanese manga, and we as the community can decide which translations are the most suitable. 19:52, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

Half translations can be both removing certain parts (like when people remove 楼 from 海楼石 and just translate it to seastone) and also when someone merges English and Japanese. Sea-Prism Stone and Seastone are technically both incorrect as the correct translation is Sea Watchtower Stone. And if you know anything about English literature you would know you can't put adjective after a noun or verb. Even Toei told Funimation to translate Gia Sekando cause they wanted it to be grammatically correct.--DuelMaster93 (talk) 21:57, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

No a half translation is literally only half translating something. What you are describing is purposely leaving something out. "Even Toei told Funimation to translate Gia Sekando cause they wanted it to be grammatically correct." Citation needed. SeaTerror (talk) 11:00, May 26, 2015 (UTC)

It was stated on the Voyage set it was release on and in interviews by Brand Manager Josh Kocurek. But that's besides the point, as Gear Second is still grammatically incorrect. Half translations can also be leaving something out. But in any case, I have no problem with Seastone being used.--DuelMaster93 (talk) 19:17, May 26, 2015 (UTC)

Kairoseki
Seems like most people support translating this as "Seastone". Can we agree here? 20:41, May 24, 2015 (UTC)

Well, let's be fair. Just as many people are for "Sea-Prism Stone" or just "Kairoseki". But I am for "Seastone". 14:19, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind it being untranslated but this one doesn't really matter. Barely anybody is for Sea-Prism Stone. I say Seastone or Sea Watchtower Stone since Watchtower is the literal translation. SeaTerror (talk) 17:54, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

I guess it's more or less dependent on what the VIZ uses. Sea-Prism Stone sounds good. 18:08, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

It's not at all dependent on Viz. We can use whichever one we deem more approriate. I support "Seastone"; It's smooth and simple. "Prism" isn't present in original term, and doesn't really have anything to do with the substance. 19:52, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

What Kage said pretty much. Prism is awful. SeaTerror (talk) 11:00, May 26, 2015 (UTC)

Fighting Styles
Inconsistency: Rokushiki, Hasshoken, Santoryu vs. Black Leg Style, Life Return, Art of Weather. Thoughts? 20:41, May 24, 2015 (UTC)

Inconsistency doesn't matter. SeaTerror (talk) 17:54, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

All to Japanese or English. Japanese is the better way to go. 18:08, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

I'd say translate the majority like Santoryu to English, and leave the ones that don't flow well or sound smooth in Japanese.--DuelMaster93 (talk) 21:57, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

That's inconsistency. 23:31, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

Well if we translate them all to English, then not all of them will sound good or smooth. We can't just leave everything Japanese cause we're an English wiki. For example, why should we leave 生命帰還 as Seimei Kikan when it can easily be translated to Life Return? We translate if we can do it accurately in a grammatically correct and smooth sounding manner. If not, we do partial translations or leave it untranslated. We don't have to be absolutely 100% consistent. Just as long as we are consistent for the most part.--DuelMaster93 (talk) 04:44, May 26, 2015 (UTC)

The majority can't be translated properly anyway. Plus translating one attack style means you would have to translate them all. SeaTerror (talk) 11:00, May 26, 2015 (UTC)

Consistency should be strived for but isn't the end-all-beat-all of our decisions. That's why we're handling this case-by-case instead of a simple "yes/no" poll to set the policy for all articles.

If we translate Santoryu to Three Sword Style, then we'd end up with "Three Sword Style: Oni Giri" or "Three Sword Style: Demon Slash". I'm against Demon Slash or translating specific attacks as they lose a lot of their significance. However, Oni Giri is a half-translation.

On the other hand, that's what FUNimation uses anyway, so maybe that's the more understood term. (Anti-FUNi users, please don't get caught up on that statement.) I guess I'm still undecided, but I'm leaning towards half-translating. 16:03, May 26, 2015 (UTC)

If Funimation also uses Oni Giri then that shows a clear cut case of not translating it. SeaTerror (talk) 18:34, May 26, 2015 (UTC)

Yonko and Shichibukai
Yonko smoothly translates to "Four Emperors", but Shichibukai would be more difficult. Thoughts? 20:41, May 24, 2015 (UTC)

I have no problem with Seven Warlords. I understand that a lot of people will. 14:36, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

Titles/names should never be translated. I'm against both being translated. SeaTerror (talk) 17:54, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

I go with Seven Warlords of the Seas and Four Emperors, like Celestial Dragons (as VIZ uses, instead of the direct Heavenly Dragon Folks). 18:08, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

I have stupid reasons for it, but I'm against translating Shichibukai. I think Four Emperors would be better than Yonko, but I don't care enough to make a fuss about that. 18:49, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

I'd go with 'Seven Warlords of the Sea'. In context it translates to 'Seven Military Officers of the Seas'. The English definition of Warlord is 'Military Leader' or 'Military Commander' (or any military authority) in a warlike nation. I think it's close enough in my opinion.--DuelMaster93 (talk) 21:57, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

Still a title. SeaTerror (talk) 11:00, May 26, 2015 (UTC)

Well ST, I (and others currently participating in the conversation) don't believe that titles should never be translated. If that's your reason, then we know your vote. But restating it isn't going to change anyone's mind here. If you could go into more detail as to why titles should never be translated other than preference, or if you have any other reason in mind, that could add to the discussion.

If we didn't translate any titles, then admiral should become taisho. Taisho Kizaru. And we'd do that to every other rank as well.

"Seven Warlords of the Sea" is a bit wordy, but I could also go with that. Maybe that could be the title of the article, but abbreviated to Seven Warlords in other mentions. Four Emperors, Seven Warlords of the Sea, Celestial Dragons, World Nobles, Marine Admirals, and God. All consistent, all commonly understood by readers. This is how I want it. 15:56, May 26, 2015 (UTC)

How about "Seven Sea Warlords"? 16:21, May 26, 2015 (UTC)

We should be using what's more popular. Shichibukai is more popular than Seven Warlords of the Sea. Yonkou is also more popular than Four Emperors. SeaTerror (talk) 18:37, May 26, 2015 (UTC)

The only reason those terms are more popular is because that's how scanlators and fansubbers originally started translating them. Not because they're better left untranslated. If that was the case we wouldn't even be talking about this. The official translations already use 'Seven Warlords of the Sea' and 'Four Emperors', so if we start using those terms, the official translations of those terms will become the more popular ones. --DuelMaster93 (talk) 19:17, May 26, 2015 (UTC)