Talk:Kikunojo

Saku
I was just wondering why the page is called Kiku when I see it translated as Saku. If someone could please explain that. 02:43, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

JB says Kiku. MS says Saku. Raw says 菊 (きく), not さく. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 04:02, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

Full name
Recently in chapter 939 (page 2) Hiyori called Kiku "Kikunojo". Cracker-Kun (talk) 23:44, April 12, 2019 (UTC)

Let's wait until it's used more to determine whether or not that's her real name. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 02:23, April 13, 2019 (UTC)

Gender
So, should we change all the shes to hes since Kiku is actually a man?Ghmorello (talk) 05:46, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

I thought the chapter indicated she is just posing as one. Regardless, it's way too unclear. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 05:50, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Actually, I think I misread it. I'm a little hesitant to jump forth immediately, but it should probably be changed. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 05:55, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Greetings from the SOF wiki hi, why don't we just make Kiku's page say they and call it a day. No misgendering = no problems boiz.

Regards, That Guy that Says Things (talk) 06:47, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

She identifies as a women so thus she is a woman who uses she/her. Giant Shy Guy (talk) 06:54, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

He said he is a "woman at heart" which is not exactly identifying as a woman. He uses a male version of "I", plus the Nine Red Scabbards in the original Japanese are specifically referred to as "Nine Red Scabbard Men" or the like. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 07:11, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Should he be considered an okama?
 * 🏴‍☠️👸🏻 (talk) 07:40, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

It was a disguise so it had nothing to do with transgenderism. SeaTerror (talk) 08:52, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

"Kokoro wa onna desu", "my heart/soul is a woman", I don't know how you could possibly be any more clear about her identifying as a woman. If a later chapter backsup it being entirely about disguise or art as an onnagata, it could be up for debate. But as it is I do think changing to he/him pronouns would be inappropriate (BLou-Lilie (talk) 09:32, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

But the thing is, he talks like a man (like with male pronouns and stuff) if I remember correctly. Why would we not use a male pronoun if the character himself uses male pronouns.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 09:43, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

The same reason Big Mom uses ore. She's been treated and refered to as a woman thus far, and admitted to being a woman at heart. There is no precedent thus far that he'd rather be called a man, regardless of the group she belongs in puts her under a name that specifices man. Until a later chapter reveales that she is only using it as diguise and really does prefer being treated male, then information thus far says she is a she. Giant Shy Guy (talk) 10:36, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

I just noticed despite being an active discussion the entire article has already been changed to male??? Giant Shy Guy (talk) 10:43, July 5, 2019 (UTC)


 * When asked if he's a man, Kikunojo replied "I am a woman at heart", so the least we know is that Kikunojo is a male. Whether or not he identified as something is to be determined so for now Kikunojo is a male. Rhavkin (talk) 11:31, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

In my opinion he is clearly an okama, I mean, he is a man who dresses like a woman, and who identifies himself as a woman. Cracker-Kun (talk) 12:53, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

"Kokoro wa onna desu", "my heart/soul is a woman" suggests that Kiku identifies as fenale, so we should be using she or they Are You Serious (talk) 14:51, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Also, on the topic of O-kiku using "sessha" a "male" first pronoun for samurai. Japanese pronouns don't work exactly like english pronouns. Like mentioned above, Big Mom uses "ore", which is also considered a "male" pronoun. It's also not an uncommon trope in manga in general for female characters to use "male" pronouns for a variety of reasons. But also in real life japanese, pronouns do not indicate what you identify as. It's like wearing clothes, a man can wear a dress when he wants to, but that doesn't mean he identifies as a woman. You can literally use "ore" in personal conversations but use "watashi" in professional settings (or other pronouns in whatever situations, this is just one example). It doesn't change your identity. So I don't think Kiku using "sessha" is proof she identifies as a man. If her "posing as a woman" was purely for the sake of disguise it would also make no sense for her to use a pronoun associated with samurai. So, like I said in my earlier post, I don't know how you could possibly be any more clear about her identifying as a woman than saying "my heart/soul is a woman". (BLou-Lilie (talk) 15:14, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

"Ore" is occasionally used by female characters. As far as I know, "sessha" is not used in the same way. His usage of "sessha" was when he literally said "I am a samurai", so there is no issue about him keeping his cover since he effectively blew it there no matter what.

Jaimini's points out another thing indicating Kiku is male: in Japanese, the Nine Red Scabbards are called Akazaya Ku-nin Otoko, Otoko obviously meaning male to connotate they're called the "Nine Red Scabbard Men", which translations leave out for clarity. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 15:36, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I'm sorry but, obviously you will find more instances of "ore" being used by female characters. It is one of the most common first pronouns in general. I think it'll be hard to make a long list of characters that use sessha in general, let alone finding an instance where there could be an argument over the characters gender identification. That doesn't dispute pronouns not necessarily indicating one's identity anyway.

And yes I am well aware of the groups name. However I don't think it is relevant to Kiku's personal identity? The name was probably not chosen by the members themselves, and in this very chapter we have someone assuming "Kikunojo" as a male samurai. The public's view is irrelevant to Kiku's personal identity. The name could also possibly have come from a time before Kiku's "coming out", so to say. Either way, I think it's more of a meta narrative device of Oda doing his classic foreshadowing, to let the readers suspect Kiku being a Man or Trasnwoman before giving clarification. Just like her name is a reference to a famous onnagata. None of this holds any water against Kiku literally saing she is a woman at heart.

Even if you're very adamant about it not being clear cut, why should changing all pronouns to he/him before getting any proof of her identifying as male, which there is none, be more important than possibly trans erasure? I really feel like this was jumping the gun on a very delicate topic. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 16:07, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Because Kikunojō is not a trans woman. Unfortunately, Oda-sensei is not very well versed in trans anything, which is why we get okama, which follow the same conflation of drag queens and trans folk that plagues the trans community in the United States. He is based on a combination of onnagata, who were also frequently male prostitutes on the side (and Kiku, or chrysanthemum, was a euphemism for anus, particularly with regard to male-male sex) and beautiful pages like Mori Ranmaru (apocryphally speaking) who served their lords both inside and outside of the bedroom. As a kabuki fan, Oda-sensei would definitely like the onnagata element, and references to the Warring States period are par for the course in Japan. At absolute best, he is an okama, which is an extremely problematic identity and a term that is considered derogatory among the LGBTQ+ community in Japan today. 58.89.146.212 16:23, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

What about waiting the needed time for confirmation, no matter how much that time is, to say whether Kiku is a "he" or a "she"? And while we wait keeping her as a "she"? Would that hurt someone? 16:24, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

If that really makes more people comfortable, I'm okay with it. From the perspective of Japanese history and culture, especially Edo period culture (the basis of Wano Kuni), there's no real question as to what Kikunojō is referencing. But if people are concerned about trans erasure (a legitimate concern), then keep the pronouns as female. But there should be more information in the trivia about the various references to male-male sexuality, and people should be prepared to change it should the word of God say that Kikunojō is male. 58.89.146.212 16:29, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Even Ivankov's page refer to his as he. The category shouldn't change the page since he is 100% not a female. Rhavkin (talk) 18:47, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

How come there is a back and forth battle of changing the pronouns, yet there's no further arguments for using he/him on the actual talk page? If you're so adamant about using he/him, give a proper reasoning instead of just quietly changing back the pronouns. The latest post was "okay with" keeping it as she/her and no one argued further? If you don't want to commit to either just use they/them, but, I'm sorry, this is getting really immature... If it's still about the "sessha", japanese pronouns don't work like english. You cannot inheritely stick one gender to a pronoun. Gendered pronouns don't exist in japanese the way the do in english. Pronouns indicate your status or role in a given istuation. You can change them dependingly. It's like changing clothes. A man can wear a dress without indentifying as a woman. A woman can wear a three piece suit without indentifying as a man. You'd use a more timid pronoun like "watashi" when talking to your boss, instead of "ore",which you might use in a private setting. Associations to a specific gender go hand in hand with what societal norms are expected from that gender. "Sessha" is considered a male pronoun because samurai are supposed to be men. Kiku using sessha does not indicate she identifies as a man. She uses it because she is a samurai, much like the other samurai use it. Kiku saying she is a woman at heart however, is a clear indication that she identifies as a woman. Further more she actually says this as a correction of someone calling her a man. If there's any other arguments, I'd be happy to discuss further. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 20:29, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Well, technically speaking, since the wiki tries not to assume stuff, we shouldn't assume that Kikunojo wants to be referred to as "she." The most concrete and set in stone evidence is that she is actually a male. The quote in question that "My heart/soul is that of a woman" is debatable to whether it discredits her being a he. One can interpret that as a correction of Chopper calling her a man, but it can also be interpreted as a confirmation to Chopper's question, such that "Yes I am a man, but my heart is that of a woman." All we know for sure is that she is an actual male and so based on minimal use of assumption, we would have to use "he/him" until further clarification.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 21:23, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Heavily disagree. Precisely because of the "woman at heart" comment coming as a correction to being called a male she should be reffered to as female until it should be directly contradicted by Oda, which I hope will never happen.

Elizabello 2 (talk) 21:31, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

To be honest, this is a difficult for me to find an answer to. Based on my quick research, Kiku is a transwoman (born a man, but identifies as a female (at heart)), so I think he feels to be a woman. Pronouns are not something common in Japanese, so unless Oda does something in what should be used —though I think he’s fine with either or— I don’t know what to say.OishiLover75 (talk) 21:39, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

I don't know how "My heart/soul is a woman" could be interpreted any other way. But alright, I'm curious. Just how much more explicit do you think it's gonna get in a japanese shonen manga? Because I feel like you're setting an impossible standard. If Kiku does identify as a man, that'd be very easy to clarify. But to be more explicit than "My Heart is a Woman"? To me it's very much clear and I don't know how much more obvious it would need to be. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 21:52, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Ah also, like I said, if you just wanna be safe either way, just use they/them? Definitely better than the edit war. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 21:54, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Remind me why “they” is a good pronoun. I always thought that was more for plural usage, or fusions involving a male and a female in Steven Universe’s case.OishiLover75 (talk) 22:06, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

They/them can be considered a non binary/ gender neutral pronoun. Funny you mention Steven Universe, not all Fusions use they/them, Garnet for example uses she/her. It's not necessarily intended to be plural for the fusions. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 22:14, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Although "they" is considered by some to be the best choice when not assuming gender, that usually is only the case in when you don't know the subject. For example: "That person broke something. They should fix it." However, in this case, we know who the subject is, and in the eyes of the everyday common English language, that is a weird use of a plural pronoun when using it in the article and it's going to stand out as weird. Also, calling Kiku transgender is putting a modern agenda on a character in a manga from a country that is based off of ancient Japan. The safest way to characterize Kiku is how we define Izo, a cross-dressing man.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 22:19, July 5, 2019 (UTC)