Forum:Changing How We Interpret and Use Information

I am continuing the discussion previously started on Talk:Charlotte Family. The topic of how we interpret information and from what we can draw our own conclusions has been hanging over our heads for a while now and came to a head when we reached a standstill on adding "Charlotte" to Daifuku, Oven, and Compote, all confirmed members of the Charlotte Family as well as Big Mom's children. I am against only using what the manga gives us. We're all rational human beings, so we should be able to make our own logical conclusions and deductions and present the information reached. It's confirmed they're Big Mom's own children, so it would only make sense to add Charlotte to their names. If the conclusion in general is rooted purely in fact with no room for error, why not add it? There is nothing wrong with reading between the lines like this. I realize there can be a fine line between verifiable albeit unstated fact and speculation, so it will be our responsibility to discuss the issues before adding to articles. To leave out derived and blatant facts like this feels like we're ignoring the obvious and doing a disservice to people who visit the site for information. I feel like we're at an age where we have to do more than just present what we see. We have to go slightly below the surface, if only for the sake of consistency. Again, I realize this has the high possibility to run away with itself, so we need to be systematic here. I know a lot of people agree with me, but we need to put this through the proper channels before we do this in order to do this correctly. 19:15, April 18, 2017 (UTC)

Discussion
The problem is the line. It's a short couple of steps from obvious to obvious for some people to obvious for the newb who keeps changing the page. Now either we unleash havoc, or we have to go through long discussions each and every time. Brings me back to my old stance that we need admin dictators to make the hard calls.

19:30, April 18, 2017 (UTC)

I'm fine with DancePowderer's proposal. If there's a disagreement we vote on it, simple. And no, admin dictatorship is a horrible horrible idea and the defeats the purpose of a community decision Godess of Time Dimaria (talk) 19:36, April 18, 2017 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree with DancePowderer. Logic should be applied on lack of information that is pretty obvious.

I always agreed with that kind of reasoning that DP is suggesting. As for the issue of "where we draw the line", although I do agree that's hard to define in this forum exactly, the reasoning I've always used was "when there is no reasonable doubt". I understand that's shifting the problem to what a "reasonable doubt" is, but basically if the "other scenarios" are far more speculative the the logical conclusion then there is no reason to not make that conclusion. I should also point out that nothing prevents us to add notes to mark our conclusion (e.g. adding a note that Oven was never called a Charlotte).

I'd also like to remind everyone that we have basically already adopted this kind of reasoning because for example we don't rise any problem stating a character has a DF or is part of a race if that's obvious although it's yet officially stated. We do wait to do so when there are, indeed, reasonable doubts or realistic alternative explanations.

I agree. Meshack (talk) 00:09, April 19, 2017 (UTC)

Rather than vote, I'd rather just have it be settled with a discussion. It would be better to lay out all discrepencies on the table and settle it in about a day rather than vote and drag it out a week. For instance, -Big Mom referred to Pudding as Anglais's sister, therefore he must be a Charlotte too. Moving the page, cool? Actually, the word used for sister there is meant more as a term of endearment and might not actually denote a blood familial bond, rather just a close relationship. Okay, we'll hold off then.- That would settle the matter in an hour rather than dragging it out a whole week with a vote. 01:04, April 19, 2017 (UTC)

I agree as well. 01:48, April 19, 2017 (UTC)

I also agree with DP. We'd need be careful so things don't get out of hand, but requiring every bit of information to be spoon-fed to us is just as bad. In cases like the Charlotte family, there's no reason to believe the new kids aren't also named Charlotte and ample reason to believe they are. We don't need every little bit of information to be spelled out. 01:58, April 19, 2017 (UTC)

I agree with DP as well. However, my concern is regarding adding the japanese to infoboxes because it wouldn't exist. Also we should add a footer somewhere that these types of information was added thanks to a community decision and not directly spoon fed from the manga 17:28, April 19, 2017 (UTC)

The Japanese would be added to the infobox as presented. Meaning we wouldn't put "シャーロット" in front of "コンポート" in Compote's infobox until it's presented as such in the manga. And I do agree with adding a footer for clarification. 17:49, April 19, 2017 (UTC)

Not sure if we should vote on this or what. It changes how we do things, so I feel like we should. 05:25, April 21, 2017 (UTC)

I think we should vote on it, but we need to be very clear on what we're voting for.

21:06, April 24, 2017 (UTC)

Or we don't need to be, since apparently everyone lost interest. Let me suggest some options, then.


 * Only the information we're given, nothing inferred
 * Logical inferring, such as children of someone with a surname bearing that same surname (unless otherwise stated like Ace) - although this is likely going to be subject to debate every time, so we may need an admin to make deciding votes on those
 * If you think there's a link, and you can argue it successfully against people who don't understand
 * Utter bloody chaos with some thrash metal and a dying sun

Thoughts? Ideas? Names for a band better than Utter Bloody Chaos?

16:46, May 8, 2017 (UTC)

Setting up a few guidelines based on hard examples like:

We decide the category of a devil fruit based on its aparent properties only if those properties sufficiently fit with the categories available AND we have sufficient cumulative knowledge of those categories.

The same would apply for races as was exemplified earlier in the discussion.

In the case DP discussed, I would apply this same rationalization of A) an existing pattern formed from prior knowledge, B) clear enough distinctions of that pattern and other patterns, C) an existing object that sufficiently fits those criteria.

A) We know Big Mom had a large family and throughout this arc we've been introduced to them, some of which were Ministers.

B) There have not been any ministers that were not part of her family.

C) Compote is the minister of Fruit that has been introduced within this arc, something which we believe makes her Big Mom's daughter.

And here I would also include a D) The information will be updated as soon as more data becomes available as the series progresses.

Something like a fishman not being a fishman, but rather a wotan.

Well this is only a proposal. I'm sure that anyone can make these simple analyses when editing a page, but having some guidelines somewhere might clear up any confusions or make this change official.