Talk:Trafalgar Lami

Family Name
Let me guess, we won't consider her to be "Trafalgar Lamy" until/unless we receive confirmation in a later chapter or SBS. Or should we do it now? 01:17, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

I don't mind changing the name to "Trafalgar Lamy". However, I'd like to know which one, "Lamy" or "Lamie", is her name, since both versions were used in the translations. 01:26, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

I changed it for you

Joekido (talk) 01:33, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

I believe Lamy is the more correct one. Just a feeling, probably the "y" over "ie". But doesn't this bring up the "Donquixote Corazon" and "Byrnndi Byojack" businesses? 01:44, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

We can discuss Corazon and Byojack on their respective talk pages. 01:47, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

Siblings don't always have the same last name. Besides if we're going by how the name is then the last name would be Law since Trafalgar is a western style name. Just like Rob Lucci. The other page has to be deleted now to move it back. We are supposed to discuss it first. SeaTerror (talk) 01:51, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

ST, this is pretty clear that Lamy is the sister of Law, and the child of the same parents, so her family name would obviously be the same as Law's. 01:54, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

I can't believe you decided to side with Seaterror Yatan, it was fine to give the name Trafalgar to Lamy

Joekido (talk) 02:09, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

I didn't side with him. I just asked should we change her name. With all due respect, I think it was more plausible to wait until we talked this through before doing it. Jade asked me to turn it back so we can officially discuss this before changing the page. 02:13, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

We can change it. Unlike the previous examples, we know they're biological and we know Lamy isn't a codename like Corazon. 02:22, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

Well, I'm in favor of that. But what about Byojack? We should change him as well if we change Lamy. 02:26, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

Then let's do it.

Joekido (talk) 02:29, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

Any more objections? If not, this becomes Trafalgar Lamy, and that becomes Byrnndi Byojack. 02:31, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

"Besides if we're going by how the name is then the last name would be Law since Trafalgar is a western style name. Just like Rob Lucci." SeaTerror (talk) 02:33, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

I don't have any objections to changing Lamy to Trafaglar Lamy and Byojack to Byrnndi Byojack. 02:34, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

@ST, was that an argument or just a quote? 02:45, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

That is my argument. I just requoted it since people since to have missed it. SeaTerror (talk) 02:46, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, but I thought everyone knows as an unspoken fact by now that the family name comes first in OP. Monkey D., not D. Monkey. 02:56, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

That's the point. If it was like that on all names then it would be Lucci Rob or Newgate Edward when it's obviously not how it works. SeaTerror (talk) 02:59, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

Whenever was it stated that Law is his family name? If there's no source of it, then his family name would be Trafalgar, following the usual tradation of One Piece. 03:03, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, edit conflicts f---s the hell outta me. We know it works this way: "[Family Name], [Maybe the D.], [Given Name]". The entire Monkey, Portgas, Gol, Nico and so many others are like this. Now, we are just seeing should we add the Trafalgar for Lamy. We wouldn't have to change it to Law Trafalgar, or whatnot. Just adding Trafalgar or not for Lamy. 03:05, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

My objections are mostly policy-based, that it's better to stick to what's been stated in these sorts of circumstances because if we don't, then it becomes a slippery slope and people start arguing for it in circumstances that are less and less certain than this one. This wiki has a pretty bad reputation for containing inaccuracies, and there are positive aspects to being able to say "we don't use conjectural titles unless absolutely necessary", and "the title of the page corresponds to the character's name as stated at least once in either the manga or supplementary materials". Taking that away for even one character means you can no longer make that claim.

As far as her first name's concerned, the Japanese is レイミー (Reimī), so there are an awful lot of potential spellings. Lamy, Lamie, Ramey, Remy, Remie, L/Raymee, L/Raimee etc. 04:21, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

Wow, guess you make a very good point there. Can't deny that. 04:26, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, Zodiaque makes a great point there. I haven't known how to feel about these name conflicts (so I haven't posted on them), but that seals the deal for me. This is why I voted him for admin. 04:29, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

Undeniable there, so she remains Lamy until/unless a new source proves otherwise. 06:14, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

As for her name spelling, we can consider it to be Lamy until VIZ comes out with it right? After all, trustworthy of English spelling is based on: RAW/SBS > Databook/Others > official VIZ > Scanlation/Fansub. 07:10, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

Lamy was just the first scan that came out, and we don't change the name to the VIZ name anyway (we just put it as the English Name parameter in the infobox). She's a really minor character so it's extremely unlikely she'll get an official romanization like Mansherry or Vergo did. Letting Klobis pick one is probably the easiest way to deal with it (in all circumstances like this). 07:22, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

It's not uncommon for siblings' names to start with the same letter, so I'd lean more toward it beginning with "L" like Law does. 07:39, October 3, 2014 (UTC)

Anywho, for the sake of argument, let's say Lamy is correct. Is everyone cool with throwing a Trafalgar in front of her name? It's not like we can't move it further down the road should her name become clear. 06:23, October 4, 2014 (UTC)

Like Zodiaque said, if we do that for Lamy (without waiting for future proof) then we'd be no longer able to claim that this wiki strictly sticks to proven facts. Just like Byojack, I guess. Besides, Panz Fry and Lily Enstomach are father and daughter, but they have totally different family names. 06:58, October 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Although, if you guys believe this is a situation where everything else is absolutely pointing to it (Lamy being Law's biological sister based on their same parents, names starting with the same letter) that only misses Oda's personal confirmation, how about we add this to the new policies: "if a character whose family name is not given, but is beyond a doubt that it is [family name] based on another character who is proven/clearly a blood-relative, then we can add that family name for the character in question". How does this sound? 07:09, October 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. And I'm just going to throw in the Bascuds as a fun little counter example without straying from your filler examples. The manga tends to be much more clear on stuff like this. We're being way too skittish for our own good. 07:13, October 4, 2014 (UTC)

That would be a bad policy since it would allow speculation. Also nobody has actually countered what I said about the last name thing. SeaTerror (talk) 07:23, October 4, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with what SeaTerror has stated above. Let's just wait and see instead of being all speculative about it and deciding on things that might be proven false afterwords. There is no need to rush anything, in time her full name will be revealed. MasterDeva (talk) 07:32, October 4, 2014 (UTC)

Ehm... don't you understand that Lamy will never appear again? --Meganoide (talk) 10:24, October 4, 2014 (UTC)

Ehm... don't you understand that there are databooks? :P MasterDeva (talk) 12:10, October 4, 2014 (UTC)

D'oh! --Meganoide (talk) 13:45, October 4, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with ST, without even hearing one other family member shares the name, it's quite speculative to add it. We're better off just waiting for awhile, then seeing if we can add it. 14:09, October 4, 2014 (UTC)

Then I guess for our own good, we are to keep it as "Lamy" until/unless future says "Trafalgar Lamy" or something. 15:26, October 4, 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'll move protect it just in case someone who didn't see this conversation tries to change it. 15:43, October 4, 2014 (UTC)

Alright, we're done here then. 03:33, October 5, 2014 (UTC)

I think we can all agree that she is his sister. Even if for some reason she isn't biologically (I don't think she's going to be pulling an Ace on us... When she pulled an Ace already) so let's just call her Trafalgar. Especially the D as well. We all know it, we won't be burned for it.

Nobody700 (talk) 21:05, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

There's no need to wait in this case. It wasn't flat out said, but even an idiot can connect the dots. Not everything is going to be spelled out for us, so we have to take initiative here instead of sticking our heads in the ground like a bunch of indecisive babies. 23:26, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

Name
She is Rami, not Reimii. It should be moved. --Klobis (talk) 13:55, October 6, 2014 (UTC)

I'm actually not so sure about that. It's not uncommon for siblings to have alliterated names, so Lamy makes the most sense right now. 16:32, October 6, 2014 (UTC)

He meant change it to Lami, like he's done in the article. The Japanese spoiler script that I got the romanization above from was wrong (my bad). 16:39, October 6, 2014 (UTC)

Oh I see. That makes sense. I'll move it. 16:58, October 6, 2014 (UTC)

Trafalgar and D
Are we gonna have to go through this again? Just because the D showed up. 17:43, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

Just lock it to IPs. SeaTerror (talk) 18:15, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

Seriously I am still getting changes without consensus here. We have to re-discuss things on how to write Lami's name. 21:15, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

I say we juts move it. I mean, we know their mom had a maiden name, that means she was a Trafalgar. Ergo, her bio kids will have the same name. The D is familial, so she'd have it too. 21:29, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

That still goes with the old argument that nobody countered. That the last name would actually be Law. SeaTerror (talk) 21:40, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

I support Trafalgar Lami. Trafalgar D. Lami, though, I'm indifferent torwards. It probably does run in the family, but maybe it doesn't. I dunno. We should at least move it to Trafalgar Lami, though. 21:48, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

^ Another person who didn't bother reading the comments. SeaTerror (talk) 21:48, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

ST, we know now that Trafalgar is a family name and that his mother changed her name. Face it, she's a Trafalgar. 21:57, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

It's surname - given name for every character, ST. 22:01, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

Then Whitebeard's name is Newgate Edward by that logic. There are western style names in the series and nobody has actually given proof that Trafalgar is the family name. SeaTerror (talk) 22:04, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

Monkey D. Luffy, Monkey D. Garp, Monkey D. Dragon. Monkey is the family name. Portgas D. Ace, Portgas D. Rouge, Porgtas is the family name. Trafalgar D. Water Law, so what does that leave with Lami? 23:05, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

Besides, Edward is the family name, Newgate is the family name. 23:11, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

I think it would be in our best interest to simply wait for the next databook to be released. Until then, the page should be locked to prevent edit wars with users who don't read the talkpage. That's the safest route, anyway. The Will of Deez (talk) 23:20, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

It's dumb to wait for something that is already self-explanatory. We're allowed to connect the dots when they're laid out for us. Oda isn't always going to hold our hand and connect them for us. Rather than look like a bunch of babies with our heads in the sand, we can just draw the obvious and only conclusion and move the page. It's okay to wait when there's not enough to go on. It's completely stupid to wait when we have all the information but are just too scared to draw our own conclusions, like we are here. It's Trafalgar Lami, no ifs, ands, or buts, and anyone who is still hesitant needs to nut up or shut up. This is getting ridiculous. Stop being afraid of drawing obvious conclusions just because no one's there to hold your hand and walk you through it. 00:29, October 9, 2014 (UTC)

I pretty much agree with what DP said, we are allowed to connect the obvious dots and draw a conclusion, without having to wait for a databook or whatever. Lami is the biological sister of Law, the family name is Trafalgar D. Water, why should we wait for a databook to state what we already know?

And if we turn out to be wrong? Have you ever heard of this magical thingy called "editing" that allows us to change Lami's name to the correct name? Geez, don't nitpick on everything just because they aren't outright said. 00:35, October 9, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah. We should just call her Trafalgar D. Water Lamy. God, that is a mouthful, isn't?

Nobody700 (talk) 00:41, October 9, 2014 (UTC)

^It's the kind of comments like the one above that make people want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. 00:49, October 9, 2014 (UTC)

The whole Trafalgar thing is debatable still but we dont know if she is a D too, so I dont think we should put her under Will of D. 00:55, October 9, 2014 (UTC)

"It's Trafalgar Lami" Or Law Lami. Seriously nobody has been able to counter it. We even have comments claiming that Whitebeard's last name is Edward which is obviously not true. SeaTerror (talk) 01:12, October 9, 2014 (UTC)

Law said himself that Trafalgar is a family name. And since Lami is the biological sister of Law, her name is clearly Trafaglar Lami. 01:59, October 9, 2014 (UTC)

Where did Law even say that? SeaTerror (talk) 02:04, October 9, 2014 (UTC)

In the newest chapter.... Please read the chapters before getting in an argument =/ 02:18, October 9, 2014 (UTC)

All Law said was his full name. He never said anything about what name is his family name. SeaTerror (talk) 02:43, October 9, 2014 (UTC)

I think it's far too presumptuous to include the D. Middle names can be different among siblings, in fact (at least in America), it would be weird if siblings did have the same middle name. Also, aside from the family connection, there's no other evidence for the D. Her death is unseen, so we don't know if she smiles or fears it. Same goes with Law's mother. Law's father's corpse is seen, but he is not smiling, making the odds that he shares the D. low. We should not include her as a D.

You could make a case for Trafalgar, but I still think it's best to be cautionary about this, like Zodiaque said in the section above. 02:46, October 9, 2014 (UTC)

Why would a kid give himself some random family name? Trafalgar is the family name, so Lami is a Trafalgar. I can concede adding the D. initial, but it is completely stupid to say that Trafalgar isn't the family name. 03:21, October 9, 2014 (UTC)

Nobody has even proved that. They just keep claiming that Trafalgar is the family name. SeaTerror (talk) 03:25, October 9, 2014 (UTC)

Until we cleared this out, we keep the page locked. And ST obviously cannot understand what I said: Monkey, Portgas, Donquixote, Nefertari. Don't these all convince you that family name comes first, eastern style? 04:36, October 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * But family name aside, we didn't change it to Riku Viola, so we shouldn't here. 04:37, October 9, 2014 (UTC)

They're kind of different. Viola wasn't going by her given name at the time she was introduced and that debate is still ongoing from what I can tell. We made Corazon Donquixote Rocinante instead of just Rocinante despite him never being called by his full name. So what's the difference here? 23:35, October 9, 2014 (UTC)

Corazon is now changed to just "Rocinante", because "Donquixote" has yet to be placed in front of his name. 00:50, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

I kinda agree with both Yata and DP, but with Yata more. We should "connects the dots" as DP says, but since naming in One Piece is a bit weird (mostly because family names are rarely stated), instead of spreading family names left and right, since this always cause a fuss, we may just wait until they are called/introduced that way. But again, what DP says is reasonable too, so I don't know. And one way or the other, there is still to be decided if we should add her to Will of D.

Also, why ST keep saying that Rob Lucci and Edward Newgate are western style? I know that "Rob" and "Edward" are names, but for these characters are surname. People called them Lucci and Newgate, not Rob and Edward. Same with Law: close people call him Law because it's his name! Otherwise they would call him Trafalgar, which is what not close people call him (like marines).

Why don't we just change her name to Trafalgar Lami, and wait until a databook or something for her full name, and see if it's actually Trafalgar D. Lami, Trafalgar Lami, or just Lami?

Trafalgar Lami sounds perfectly reasonable, because it's a family name and she is the biological sister of Law, and we're allowed to connect the dots ourselves, without having Oda to outright state something. But many people in here are uncertain about adding the "D." to the name, so we can just drop the "D." in Trafalgar Lami, and wait for a databook to see if the family name and "D." is included. 01:19, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

It appears we have reached a conundrum. Let's put it to a vote. 02:36, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it seems there are characters with confirmed western style names: Kelly Funk and Bobby Funk. Now I'm not sure which names are western style and which aren't. I still think Trafalgar is the last name, but it's not impossible for it to be Law's first name. 12:39, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

Given that Lami is Law's brother and the latter has the Will of the D., shall we add this girl into the Will of the D. category even without evidence of having died smiling (given also that she is a deceased character)?

GOURD http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx27/sudhirshakya/1star4a.gif  ROGER  14:33, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

Every D. up until now has had their name in the eastern style, so I don't see why Law would be any different. So Trafalgar Lami would be correct based on what we know. We should hold off on adding the D to her name since we know it can be generational but we don't know if/how it can apply to siblings. 15:17, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

Newgate and Lucci are actual real last names too for that matter. SeaTerror (talk) 18:04, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

So are Law, Hawkins, Kid, Teach, Burgess, and Bonney. What of it? 18:16, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

Levi claimed that Edward and Rob are their family names which is obviously not true. SeaTerror (talk) 18:22, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Leviathan: Edward and Rob are family names. And I add another one: Jesus is Burgess' family name. First, it is obvious; second, Teach himself calls him "Burgess", and since they're nakamas (very close nakamas) it's obvious he calls his friend by given name.

However, about Lami, listen to me. She has not been introduced through an infobox; her name was only written in balloons, in particular in Law's thoughts/speeches. Why should have him called her sister adding their family name?? So it's not true that Oda calls her "Lami". Oda created a character called "??? Lami", and we know that the first part is Trafalgar D. Water. So calling her "Trafalgar D. Water Lami" is not speculation. Meganoide (talk) 18:51, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

We can consider this as a difference in how Western and Eastern people name themselves in the real world: most follow the Eastern style (Monkey, Portgas, Nico, Donquixote, etc.), while some the other way (I'm guessing that Masterson family, Bascùd family, Funk brothers, etc.). 19:12, October 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Like I said, we are arguing in circles. Let's just vote on how naming should be handled. 19:12, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucci http://www.houseofnames.com/newgate-family-crest?a=54323-224

Actual last names. So anybody who says they are not family names are flat out wrong. Not every name is Eastern order in a manga. SeaTerror (talk) 19:18, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

So I don't suppose you people want to vote this out? 21:20, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

ST, How can you not tell that Lucci and Newgate are the names by the way they are used? It doesn't matter if one is a common name, I know A LOT of people that have surnames that are also common names and vice versa. My father's name is actually a common surname. So that doesn't mean anything and you know that Oda often put references in the names, let's take for example Edward Newgate: his name comes from "Edward Thatch", so "Edward" is the name while "Thatch" is the surname, however "Thatch" is used as name for Thatch and Marshall D. Teach. If you say that "Edward" in "Edward Newgate" is the name because "Edward" is a name, then you also must say that "Teach" and "Thatch" are surnames because "Thacth" is a surname, and that's obviously false. Excluding fillers every character up until now used eastern style naming, however I forgot about the Funk brothers. Yeah, they are using wester style naming, weird. Good catch, but still I don't have any doubts on the fact that Law is the name and I don't see any reason to have them.

@Yata: I think this discussion was started 2 days ago, so give it some time before taking it to a poll. There is no point in voting if you don't argue first (except when there are no more arguments to make).

I have never seen anybody with the surname Edward. Edwards but not Edward. It is flatout ignorant to claim they are Eastern style names just because One Piece is a Japanese manga. Lucci and Newgate are obvious family names and there really is no denying that. SeaTerror (talk) 22:16, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

This is One Piece, full of surprises and twists, who knows that Rob and Edward cannot be family names. 22:18, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

Common sense tells you that. SeaTerror (talk) 22:24, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

I hope there's a cover story that involves Lucci's driver's license. If it says Robert Lucci, so many things will be settled. 23:30, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

While eating popcorn and reading our messages, I noticed we are going out of theme: whatever is the family name in "Trafalgar Law", should we add it to Lami's name? And the answer should be: yes, because Oda didn't use an infobox to show the character, but only a speech of his brother, who of course didn't say the family name.

I'm going back myself on the other theme! It's very very very very possible that even in OP world, a father's family names before a mother's one. So, once we are sure that "Water" is Law's mother's name, the first part, "Trafalgar D.", must be his father's family name. Point, set, match? :) Meganoide (talk) 23:46, October 10, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah ST, because it's utterly impossible for Oda to use a word that in another country is a surname to name one of his character. No way. I bet if he does that he will be arrested. I wonder why close people call them Newgate and Lucci instead of Rob and Edward. Weird. Also, why Thatch has only a surname and not a name!? Blackbeard with just two surnames!? WTF ODA!! "It is flatout ignorant to claim they are Eastern style names just because One Piece is a Japanese manga." - It is flatout ignorant to claim Edward and Rob are surnames just because in the real word are family names. I read the manga, and from that it's quite clear which one is the name and which one is the surname.

You obviously haven't read it since you would notice that it was actually a Western style name. Hody Jones is another example. By your logic Edward Elric is actually Elric Edward too. Plus many people just call people by their last names SeaTerror (talk) 17:59, October 11, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, we know that naming is separated into two ways here, in OP: So unless future evidence gives us otherwise, we should stick with the standard. 18:12, October 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * The standard, Eastern style (Monkey, Nico, Donquixote, Portgas, etc.)
 * The rarer, Western style (Funk, Masterson, Bascùd, etc.)

One Piece is different so some names who people might think are Eastern aren't. That argument really doesn't apply on this talk anymore anyway since more people want to move Lami to Trafalgar Lami. The D. should be left off though. SeaTerror (talk) 18:17, October 11, 2014 (UTC)

The D. is still part of her family name. And also "Water", since it's absurde to think that their parents gave them different surnames. --Meganoide (talk) 18:57, October 11, 2014 (UTC)

ST, I don't know to what "logic" you are responding to, because I don't see why by my logic "Edward Elric" (a character of another manga) would be "Elric Edward". You are understanding what suits your arguments and ignoring what it doesn't. You are saying that Edward must be a name because it's a real world name. I simply said that doesn't mean anything because nothing prevents Oda to use a real-world name as basis for a surname or vice-versa, like he actually did for Teach and Thach (something that you blatantly ignored in your arguments). As yata said, there are both western and eastern style. Which one Edward Newgate, Rob Lucci and Trafalgar Law follow? Well since the fact that a real-life name must be a fantasy name too isn't the case, and since the fact the people close to them call them Newgate, Lucci and Law, it's a point in favor of eastern style. As far I understand, Japanese normally use surnames to address people with honorifics for respect and education. Calling a person by first name denote a close relationship or intimacy. That's why Law's friends call him Law while Marines call him Trafalgar. Or are you saying that it's more likely the other way around?

We can add the D. Saul told Robin that everyone in his family has the D. in their name. Hold off on adding Water, since that seems to be more like a middle name or a name Law adopted for himself, so it might not apply to Lami. 19:13, October 11, 2014 (UTC)