Forum:Fansub Page

Note: This page contains information moved from a section of Talk:Fansub which was moved in order to make a poll.

So JSD and I was talking about this page in the chat, and I was wondering if this page is even needed. After all, it does contains websites with illegal fansubs and information on fansubs. And it is desperately in need of being updated. Which mean we would have to update this regularly. There are also probably some incorrect information on here that need to be removed. We also would have to add all of the fansubs on here, if we have to keep it, or at least, all of the famous fansubs. Plus, the scans should go in another page if we do keep it. We also have to fix the mistakes on here, which mean a lot of going though the fansubs' history....

Overall, I think we should delete this page. This isn't exactly useful in my opinion, as quite a lot of people already know where to get subbed episodes, or if they don't, all they would have to do is google "One Piece subbed" or something. 21:55, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
I think this page should stay because it is a major part in the history of One Piece, and how we've seen it. If this was a small thing, I could understand. But this is something everybody knows about and it's been the only way for most of us to even watch the series. Some information of it is needed, in my opinion, even if it is illegal. I think this page has provided use for many people, and it's not like it's the first unofficial page we have. We have a page for the Unofficial One Piece Podcast and a page about the Mythbusters, both of which acknowledge fansubs. 22:03, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

You do realize how bad piracy is and how that affects FUNimation's and Toei's business? You're seriously going to direct all the fans to pirated videos subbed by fans that pirated them? That's insanity, not to mention kinda of weak counterargument. Fansubs has nothing to with the series directly. They didn't make it, design it, voice it, or anything. They ripped off the episodes from TV when they aried and post them on YouTube and other sites. This is part of the reason the wiki is more like a fansite than an actual wiki. "...how we've seen it"? No, a wiki is a source of information ABOUT the series, not about the the illegal uploaders that subbed them or what we think of the series. They're the reason why Toei and other companies are always being threatened. Having this page containing info on illegal subbers shows that the OP Wiki is just opening the doors and encouraging others to use the subs and other sites to watch the series instead of buying the DVDs.-- Ninja Sheik  22:20, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

I think we need to do what a good wiki would do: Keep a neutral point of view. Of course we should not condone piracy. But we shouldn't disavow a large portion of how people have watched One Piece for many years. In order to be neutral, we shouldn't promote the use of any of these fansub sites in any of our articles. But we have to acknowledge that a large portion of our OP information does not come from official sources either. Let's not forget that Funimation has a LARGE gap in episodes right now from Water 7 all the way to the Sabaody Archipelago. Not to mention the fact that Funimation (and 4kids too) never translated any of the movies besides move 8. People deserve to know where others were able to watch these things. FUNimation is not our primary source for any of our articles. We do not spell names the same way Funi does, we do not value Funi's information more or less than anyone else's. We are not a wiki devoted to FUNimation's version of the anime. We are just a wiki devoted to the series in all its forms. 23:37, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

@NinjaSheik: Then what about pages like the Unofficial Podcast or the Mythbusters? Those pages, like this, exist because they indirectly play a part in the history of the series. It's moreso the fanbase than the series itself, but I'm a bit against being a wiki that completely ignores real-world things. These pages show how the series has effected the real world, and how in-turn have effected people who watched the series. This page contains valid information on how the series has been seen by people. And besides, we're the biggest One Piece encyclopedia. It's not like fansubs are completely unknown, and some people will want to learn about them. If the information for it isn't here, where else could it be?

And I am actually against pirating. In fact, I would rather fansubs never existed so FUNi and Toei can still go strong. I would rather this page stay, though, with a disclaimer explaining how illegal these things are and are not to be the main way to watch. Give it a link to the official One Piece site and to please support the official release. That way, we still have valid information about real-world things regarding the series and how we've watched it while also supporting the companies who distribute it. 23:43, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Why are you asking me about the Podcast and Mythbusters? I didn't put the links there, did I? That was there way before I came. I want the Mythbusters removed, and if you wanna remove the Podcast, that's doesn't matter to me.-- Ninja Sheik  23:48, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

I brought it up because those are controversial pages that many did not want to keep because they are unofficial. I am not against either of those pages. 23:53, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not against the Podcast, either. They have real-life connections with FUNimation, therefore they could deliver important news to the wiki.

How about you just rewrite the article just into defining what fansubs are, and that's it? That way, you keep a neutral view, and you'll be telling the readers what fansubs are. Don't mention any of the fansubbers or any of the sites, just tell them that fansubs are used. I don't like the idea, either, and I hardly think FUNimation would approve with the wiki supporting fansubs in any way and acting like a fansite rather than a wiki.-- Ninja Sheik  00:07, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

That sound good, Ninja. We can also include that fansubs are illegal too, as they are pirated. 00:17, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. :) Yeah, we should raise awareness on that and explain the situation to them and why fansubs are bad. There are a lot people who don't know what goes on within FUNimation and how it works to get the episodes. Some fans think that FUNimation has all the episodes and are just taking a long time to dub (IT BURNS ME UP WHEN I READ COMMENTS LIKE THAT! Ungrateful, ignorant, non-supporting, so-called "fans"...). If we tell them of the situation, maybe it can also help others realize that buying the DVDs actually get more episodes out in English.

Sorry if I'm thinking too far ahead about this. Since I'm an author on FF. Net and I'm friends and well acquainted with some OP authors, I help raise awareness by telling them, then asking them to spread the word. I also try to tell a ZoRo LJ Fanclub, too, but it's mostly dead, but I'm trying. Once I get my OP fic out, I'm gonna make sure people are aware of the situation. So many fans are still ignorant to what really goes in the company, and I just plain, right-out hate when they insult FUNimation because they're ignorant.-- Ninja Sheik  00:25, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

I don't really have a problem with including a section explaining that Funimation exists, and that people can watch most of the episodes there for free and legally. What I do have a problem with would be getting rid of the explanations of each fansub group. People need to know where the series came, and how they watched it in the past, and where it was coming from. I'm not a fan of piracy either, but I think people need to know where there things came from. There were many years where neither 4kids or Funimation were releasing the series, so anyone who kept up with the series then was doing it through fansubs. That includes the creators of this wiki, if my time estimates are correct. Even if it's illegal, it's important to much of the fanbase, and they should be able to come here and get the info about them all. That's what having a neutral point of view should include. 01:54, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, the fansub is unnecessary as an article, as they are NOT an official company or something like that. After all, we don't go into scanlators (and please don't get any ideas of adding such a page). 02:08, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

If we did do scanlators, it should be in the same article as fansubs, since they're essentially the same thing. 02:12, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

You guys have a scanlators page, too? Where? I never seen it before.-- Ninja Sheik  03:14, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

We don't have a page for scanlators, Ninja. Someone was merely suggesting it, which I'm strongly against it. 03:16, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I reading too quickly and misread it. And I'm totally against that, too.-- Ninja Sheik  03:33, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

I think the fansub article can be useful, especially for people who live in countries in which dubs are unavaible..

It's piracy, having this page on the wiki clearly shows that. And don't you mean "subs" not ""dubs"? What fansubbers do is illegal, and the owners and those who upload the videos can get arrested for violating copyrights. Just rewrite and just explain what faunsubs are, define the term and that's it if you want to keep a neutral view on things.-- Ninja Sheik  17:29, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

I think we should go with what Ninja said. It provide a neutral point of view for everyone. The page wouldn't be deleted, but it also won't be promoting piracy.

Exactly. That way, we can all be in agreement about the neutral point of view and we won't be bias.-- Ninja Sheik  23:22, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

No. No. No. The fansub group names should stay. They're part of the history of the subbing of the series. If you think everything on this wiki should be legal you better delete all the scanslation images and any pic that looks like it's from a pirated episode. Just no. Galaxy9000 (talk) 23:35, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

It promote piracy. Piracy is not legal. We don't even have much scans pictures on this wiki now. In fact, I think the only scans we got are for talks.

It doesn't promote piracy if we don't link the sites, but not mentioning them is just stupid. Galaxy9000 (talk) 23:39, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think the acknowledgement of names promote piracy. But if we must remove them, though, then that should be the only things to be removed. The rest of the time it should say "a fansub group" or something. 23:41, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

How is explaining what are fansubs and define the term not mentioning fansubs....? 23:52, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

The fansub groups SHOULD NOT stay. Are you serious?!You may not link to them, but just mentioning their names, their status and popularity is still promoting piracy because fans will know where to go to find them! And "subbing" from those fansub groups had no direct involvement with the series. They're pirates who ripped off the episodes from TV. If anyone is having any "subbing involvement" it's FUNimation! They are actually part of the series' history. They own the rights to them since they are partners with Toei.-- Ninja Sheik  00:23, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

We are a wiki sheik, not a "One Piece Legal Wiki". The illegal stuff is still part of the history of the series whether you like it or not. I'm waiting on you to go delete every image that we got from torrented episodes. Galaxy9000 (talk) 00:27, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Like it or not, illegality IS part of the series' history. Until Funimation can fill the ~200 episode hole in the anime series and release all the movies and OVAs, there will be no "legal" way to watch important parts of the series. People need to know where these things come from, and I don't think that just mentioning that "fansubs" exist is adequate. We should of course mention that these groups are NOT legal, and mention that Funimation IS legal. But we cannot wipe their existence away by erasing any mention of them here. 02:27, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

They have no involvement with the series whatsoever. There is no "history" for them. I'm pretty sure everyone knows about fansubs, but the wiki should not promote illegal pirates. It's wrong. Do not mention the group names, just mention what fansubs are. That's it.-- Ninja Sheik  02:54, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

They have a history to those who have gotten information from them. There are also a good deal of myths & misinterpretations that stem from fansubs. Knowing where they came from should not be some ancient knowledge that only those who were around when they were used. It should be PUBLIC knowledge that is available to everyone.

And have you honestly never seen any of the episodes/movies that Funimation hasn't gotten too yet? Have you honestly never read a chapter before Viz came out with it? If you haven't, you honestly don't know about the information (both valid and invalid) that can come from these things, especially when they're new. If you have never experienced these things, I don't think you can really say how valid they are. 03:07, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

If mentioning these fansubs promote piracy, then having articles and images on episodes 228-390 promotes piracy, as well as the latest chapters. None of these have been officially released in English countries yet. Klobis is the only one who lives in Japan, and has legal access to the series' current position. We do not. So unless Klobis is the only one who uploads images and creates articles on unreleased content, everything else is piracy, by your logic. Klobis, of course, does not only upload images or pages on the latest content, so we already "promote piracy". Congratulations, Sheik, you're now in a piracy promoting website. 06:12, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

How about you guys stop being jerks for once and start thinking like professionals? It is true that the wikis may be considered piracy. That's why everyone freaked out when the U.S Congress tried to pass SOPA and PIPA. However, even if the fans "relied" on the subs for information, it's still wrong promote it. To me, the wikis are just a source for information. And have you ever considered if the wiki IS considered piracy, then why the heck are legal companies like FUNimation trying to work out a contract with Central Wiki to get videos on here? The answer, I think, is pretty obvious. To them, we're just a source for information, nothing more and nothing less. The wiki is not harming their company, so they might not see the wikis as "pirates". Wikipedia itself can also be considered "piracy", but everyone uses it and they have their own rules and contract to follow for the web. Wikis are harmless, really. However, this page on the wiki is harmful. With a few key strokes, anyone can find these sub groups and just rely to them for episodes/scans, thus ruining Viz Media's and FUNimation's buisness.

Like I said, the wikis and Wikipedia can be considered "pirates", but they aren't promoting it. All of the wikis (besides this one) are NOT encouraging people to track down these illegal uploaders and to help ruin the company's buisness, are they? I really don't see the wikis as piracy. After all, why if FUNimation trying to work out a contract with Central Wiki to videos on this wiki, if the wiki itself is piracy? They don't, like I don't, see us as "pirates". If they had, they would've taken the wiki down a long time ago, don't you think? Instead of trying to work together with the wiki? Thw fact that they haven't is like a unspoken agreement that they approve of us.-- Ninja Sheik  16:44, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

If they approve of us as we are now, it means we don't have to worry about our fansub page. Seriously, talking about something is different from promoting it. If Wikia or another company wants us to modify this page, then we'll discuss it. Until then, I see no need to restrict ourselves because it may possibly be seen a little bit as promotion of piracy. It's information, not promotion.

Not every wiki is the same. And don't forget that a lot of wiki are large, and this is the first wiki I ever came across that promotes piracy by listing the fanusbbers' names and status. Adding information to something that has no direct involvement with the creation or legal distributions of the series is piracy. Plus, why would any wiki promote piracy?! They probably don't even know about this page. I'm going to contact FUNimation and see their thoughts about this, as you suggested, Sff9.-- Ninja Sheik  18:05, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

We are defenitly NOT promoting piracy or even the fansubbers, we're just giving information about them, just as we are doing with Toei animation, 4kids and other companies. The difference is that fansubbers aren't strictly speaking legal.

One argument I've seen seriously ignored in this discussion is the one about the episodes/movies/OVAs Funimation has never released. The opposition should address this. Fansubs are different from traditional piracy. They are not just taking Funimation's work and posting it under another name for free. They have a different translation that is entirely independent from Funimation. Currently, fansubs are only really used by people where Funimation is A) unavailable to them or B) Funimation has not released the content. and in regards to the latter, it may actually be more legal than you'd think. In the music industry, "bootlegging" is the practice of recording and releasing live performances and/or material that has been unreleased by the record company. Releasing bootlegs is actually legal, as long as they are not sold, and no money is made and the provider of the original content (ie the artist/songwritter) is ok with it. The record companies don't have the copyrights for these recordings, and they are helpless to stop them through legal action. I don't think Funimation owns the copyrights to the ENTIRE series. As far as I know, they only own the rights to the series up until the Ice Hunter arc, and only two of the movies. Since I don't think anyone else owns the rights to those holes, Fansubs of some things might be currently legal.

Also, I've stated before that this article should have a disclaimer, and that idea has also been ignored. We should state that above all else, Funimation provides, full episode legally streaming on their site, they are the only source of dubs, they are always the fastest source for new episodes, and their translations are the highest quality and are error-free (as far as typos/spelling/grammar, etc). Honestly Funimation is better than fansubs in nearly every way (the exception being HQ, which they have in the form of DVDs, but not for the simulcast episodes). If worded correctly, this entire article could actually promote Funimation rather than "piracy". If you discount the "unofficial" sources as being poor quality, the only thing left is to promote the official ones. 18:40, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

@NinjaSheik: "Adding information to something that has no direct involvement with the creation or legal distributions of the series is piracy." To put it simply: no. Giving information about racism is not necessarily racist; Giving information about religions is not necessarily religious; Giving information about humour is not necessarily funny; Giving information about piracy is not necessarily piracy. And about your last troll sentence… Well, pretty ironic, coming from someone who's always complaining about other users trolling or "being jerks".


 * How is her last sentence ironic? I don't see anything ironic about that. 20:59, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I was in school during most of the discussion, so I had to type really fast. Anyway, what I meant to say was this: Adding information to something that has no direct involvement with the creation or legal distributions of the series is PROMOTING piracy, because you are not only giving away information about the fansubbers, who are illegal uploaders, about their status, popularity, speed, their accuracy, and telling fans where they go! You even a link to Anime Crazy on the page. How is that not promoting piracy? You're encouraging fans to go and find fansubbers that upload episodes, which they are not allowed to do unless Toei or FUNimation give them permission.

And what do you mean, "last troll sentence"? I'm not trolling. I'm just saying, you're raising a good point. If FUNimation is going to be in contract with the wiki, I think they have the right to know about this page. After all, this page even links to an anime site. You did say, "If Wikia or another company wants us to modify this page, then we'll discuss it." Well, FUNimation is one company, so let's contact them. That's all I'm saying.

Ugh, whatever. I'm done. This is too fan-based for me to handle. At the very least, please remove the link to Anime Crazy.-- Ninja Sheik  20:20, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

@THT, giving information about fansubbing (names of famous fansubbers, what they subs, etc) is still the same as promoting it, in my opinion. Unless, of course, we are just defining what is fansubbing.

@JSD, You're right. FUNimation don't own the entire series. Toei do, in the matter of anime. Toei is also fighting against piracy. Therefore, the fansubs are still illegal. 20:59, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Wow Ninja, just wow. If you hate this wiki so much then just leave. This wiki isn't about what you want. Galaxy9000 (talk) 21:42, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

That applies the same for you, Gal. This wiki isn't about what you want, either. 21:44, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Cool never said it was. But Ninjasheik is constantly saying how bad this wiki is and how much she hates it.. so why stick around? Galaxy9000 (talk) 21:50, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

For myself, as well as for my friends. That's all you need to know. Just think about how many people around the world depends on the wikis, all of them for information. After all, we're not all that different Wikipedia.-- Ninja Sheik  22:11, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, we are clearly deadlocked here. Further discussion of this will probably not change that.

Where are we gonna go from here? I think at the very least, we do need to remove the links to all fansub sites (raws too), and add a description of Funimation's services. That's what I think the page needs in order to stay on here. If there's anyone who thinks the page should stay with the links provided, they should say so. I haven't seen anyone say so, so please do if you think that.

Otherwise, I propose a poll with the two options of:

1) Edit the page to remove all links to fansubbers, keep specific names and information. Add Funimation disclaimer.

2) Remove any reference to specific fansubbers and have only a short article defining "fansub".

I honestly think at this point a poll is the only way to settle this. People are getting FAR too bitter about this, on both sides. 02:11, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

I propose a third option. LEAVE THINGS AS THEY ARE. They're perfect as they are. Galaxy9000 (talk) 02:17, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, I'll add the third option of leave everything the way it is. I just hadn't heard anyone outright say that's what they wanted. I've said it all along, neutrality is best. Keep the article, get rid of the links. 02:33, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

As long as the names stay, I'm actually fine with the links being removed. Galaxy9000 (talk) 02:48, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, there should be no links—I thought there were no links and I didn't check… Of course, with links in, it looks much more like promotion. (@NinjaSheik, well, if you were not trolling, excuse me and forget what I said. It's just that I never ever implied that we should ask FUNimation's opinion about our pages. I didn't even considered you could be serious about it.)

No, what you said made sense. Think about it: FUNimation is a legal company, and own half of the rights to the series due to their contract with Toei. Both companies are fighting against piracy, mostly by tracking down anime sites like Anime Crazy in order to do so. Those subbed episodes from those illegal sites are from fansubbers, who had illegally uploaded them on the web without getting the companies' consent. Central Wiki is trying to work out a contract with FUNimation to allow this wiki to post videos, with their expressed permission, of course. Yet this page is pretty much against what FUNimation and Toei are trying to prevent. You named the fansubbers and state their accuracy, speed, their anime sites, and popularity as if you were encouraging them, and even had links to pirated videos before you took them down after I pointed them out to you guys.

Even though the majority of the users don't like the idea of of videos being posted here, nothing has been decided yet until the you guys open a Poll (since that's you seem decide things), it means that Central Wiki and FUNimation are still in negotiations. I think FUNimation has the right to know about this page, since there's still a chance they may work together with the wiki. It's only fair, isn't it? Plus, if I showed them this, it can make their jobs a lot easier and track down the illegal uploaders. Besides, piracy isn't something to joke about these days, considering the fact that Congress is still improving the SOPA bill to enforce stricter laws against piracy and copyrights infringement. Therefore, you made a good point in the matter, Sff9. Honestly, I would've showed them this either way. With the names of the fansubbers listed here, I thought it'd be nice to make FUNimation's and Toei's job easier to track down "pirates".-- Ninja Sheik  20:20, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Why in the world would you do that sheik... Do you want the episodes that Funimation doesn't have to be unavailable to fans? Do you want fans who don't want to watch subs with rushed translations to have to stoop down to that level? Galaxy9000 (talk) 21:03, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Should we move this entire section of the talk page to a forum now?

So do you support a poll on this page or not, Ninjashiek? It helps to respond to all the posts, not just the most recent ones, especially when there are questions asked of you. 01:28, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's not like I have a choice, do I? After all, Polls are your wiki's ways of making decisions. Polls for making decisions on articles, about users, the format of things, and everything else. So, whether I support the Poll or not isn't really the problem. You're going to do it, anyway, because that's just how everyone likes to decide things.-- Ninja Sheik  03:10, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

Well, you can dispute the format of the poll, which because Gal now agrees will be the 2-question format I mentioned earlier. That is unless anybody wishes to speak up for leaving the links in the page... 05:14, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

@Galaxy9000: Are you saying you support piracy? Hello, those fansubbers are the pirates. They're the ones that's ruining companies like Bandai Entertainment and Kadokawa Pictures USA. It's against the law to do this, no matter what. I understand half of the Internet is practically is piracy and everyone depends on it for their own reasons, but it's still wrong. Besides, this is a wiki, anyone can view it. I'm just directing FUNimation to it, so they can take down the people that stole their products as well as Toei's. It's the right thing to do. And what level? You meaning waiting for it to be uploaded on a LEGAL site?

@JustSomeDude: There is one problem I have about the first question. Above you posted: "Edit the page to remove all links to fansubbers, keep specific names and information. Add Funimation disclaimer."

Now, the links really need to go. Posting them on the wiki clearly shows that you guys support piracy by allowing fans an easy access to anime sites, which are illegal. Also, you said to "keep specific names". That's what I have the real problem about. No names whatsoever. They're illegal uploaders, and yet you're going to talk about their status and everything else as if you're supporting them? No, that's completely wrong. You can tell fans what fansubs are, but do not direct them to these pirates.-- Ninja Sheik  18:08, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

If you do that you're going to ruin a lot of fan's chance of watching the show. Down to that level means down to the level of shitty subs and making people wait years to watch the gap between 230-390. You make me want to go torrent all 500 episodes. The names must stay, they are part of the history of fansubs, but the links can go. Oh by the way sheik, how did you watch the episodes that Funi hasn't put out yet? If you say anything other than onepieceofficial you are a pirate. Galaxy9000 (talk) 19:02, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

Are you forgetting the part that all of it is ILLEGAL! Torrents and all are illegal. Toei are already taking down some. Can you guys stop with whole "fansubs" history thing, which has no direct involvement with the series itself and is ILLEGAL. They are part of the series. They're just people who ripped them off and posted them on websites WITHOUT FUNimation's or Toei's permission, therefore they are ILLEGAL! As for the part about "watching" the episodes that FUNimation hasn't put out, thing is, I haven't watched it. So, you can't call me a pirate. I've only read the manga, and watch the episodes that are out legally, because I don't want to take part that could possibly bring down FUNimation and Toei. So, the only arcs I haven't watched are the Water 7, Enies Lobby (although I've seen clips of them in the AMVs I watched), Amazon Arc and the Impel Down Arc (although I know it's already out on FUNimation's website). And since I collect the DVDs, I've already caught up to watching the Davy Back Fight. I watched everything up to Marineford Arc and up to where we are in the anime right now, Fishman Island Arc, on OnePieceOfficial. And I don't really care about the filler arcs. Lots of fans don't like fillers and only stick to the main storyline. I saw clips of it, again from AMVs I liked, on Youtube, such as for the Ocean's Dream Arc. But I did watch the Warship Island Arc when I got the DVDs, only because I was curious. So, I'm not a not a pirate. I'm not breaking the law or supporting piracy. I'm not you, and if SOPA ever gets passed, I won't be going to jail for, like, 5 to 10 years.

Besides, I'm not rushing. I read the manga, so I already know what happens. Sure, I'd like to watch the other arcs, but not if I have to go against the law for it. Sorry, but I won't sink to that level. Breaking the law to support piracy is the lowest. I'm NOT a little kid, I know the difference between right and wrong. Since I'm true fan of the series, I will support it legally. After all, that's the only way to get more episodes of the series. By LEGALLY supporting it, not ILLEGALLY. After all, Toei or FUNimation is not going to know how much fans love the series from sites that they are fighting against. It's the simple truth.-- Ninja Sheik  19:47, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

I know your problem with one of the poll options, and I know exacty what you're going to vote for. I asked if you had any problems with the format. I'm gonna go ahead and make the poll now and move the page to a forum. 19:45, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

@Ninja: AMV's are illegal. They aren't ripping off anything other than the video. They use their own translations (which are superior), and are who the fans can depend on the most. SOPA will never pass. Galaxy9000 (talk) 20:01, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

But YouTube is a legal site, and SOPA has no intention of affecting it or Wikipedia. Plus, YouTube is legally owned by Google, therefore, it's fine. Most of YouTube is mostly AMVs and other music videos. If they were illegal, the site itself would've been taken down long ago. And yes, SOPA will passed, eventually. According to the news, Congress is still working it out, but they haven't given it up. After all, piracy is getting out of control nowadays and the media industries wishes to stop this, within good reason. And I'm incredibly relieved. SOPA originally planned to arrest everyone public domain sites was that had piracy content and blah blah, even those who had no direct involvement, which caused a lot of angry responses. The protests against SOPA and PIPA from passing was stopped by large mod of protests everyone, including protest from Wikipedia, but Congress has stated the bill will possibly be passed in the near future after they fix the flaws.

Of course, lots of wikis also responded to the panic. Although Wikipedia and the wiki communities on the web really aren't that different, lots of people were afraid that wikis would be taken down if the old draft of SOPA were to pass. People can try and protest against SOPA and PIPA all they want, but the Congress wants to protect the media industries from having their stuff stolen, so they're not going to. SOPA was designed to enforce stricter laws against piracy.-- Ninja Sheik  20:16, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

AMVs are still illegal Sheik. Just because they haven't been taken down doesn't make them legal (fansubs are the same). SOPA won't pass. Galaxy9000 (talk) 20:24, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

It's not like SOPA is taking down sites like YouTube, if that's what you're worried about. An aide to Rep. Smith said, "This bill {SOPA} does not make it a felony for a person to post a video on YouTube of their children singing to a copyrighted song. The bill specifically targets websites dedicated to illegal or infringing activity. Sites that host user content—like YouTube, Facebook, and Twitter—have nothing to be concerned about under this legislation.

From Wikipedia, with a reliable source. Of course, I know that YouTube hosts billions of music videos, ranging from those of AMVs, videos from artists and other companies, and with people performing songs. I know that AMVs are illegal, as well, although I'm still having trouble trying to figure out why YouTube is taking so long to remove them, but I did read this: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YOUTUBE#Copyrighted_material On April 2012, a court in Hamburg ruled that YouTube could be held responsible for copyrighted material posted by its users. The performance rights organization GEMA argued that YouTube had not done enough to prevent the uploading of German copyrighted music. YouTube responded by stating: "We remain committed to finding a solution to the music licensing issue in Germany that will benefit artists, composers, authors, publishers and record labels, as well as the wider YouTube community"].

You see? They're already working on the problem, and I strongly believe that YouTube will prevail. Besides, everyone uses YouTube for now, and they don't seem concern about AMVs being illegal and other videos featuring tributes to users' favorite couples and TV shows (also illegal, I know). I have strong faith in YouTube they will find a solution to the problem. Anyway, I don't have a YouTube account, but several of my friends do and I like the site, so I wanna believe in YouTube's bosses. Nothing wrong with a little faith.

Anyway, you should stop with the denial about SOPA. It's gonna pass sooner or later (unless I hear any news that it's been scrapped, which I haven't), or the media industries are going to blow a fuse. It's to protect their work, and I strongly agree that SOPA should do that. Yeah, I agreed the old draft had a lot of flaws (a lot of people did), but now they're revising it. So, no worries until anymore news are announced about the status. Then, we can start worrying again.-- Ninja Sheik  20:43, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

Just to let you know, Sheik, SOPA did not pass. It was protested too much, so it's been scrapped. 20:49, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

No, I only heard it's been postponed, not scrapped. On January 20, 2012, House Judiciary Committee Chairman Smith postponed plans to draft the bill: "The committee remains committed to finding a solution to the problem of online piracy that protects American intellectual property and innovation ... The House Judiciary Committee will postpone consideration of the legislation until there is wider agreement on a solution". But eh, I know this isn't the end. You don't think other bills are going to come to take SOPA's place? The media industries really do want to protect their works, and whether SOPA has been scrapped or not, that doesn't mean Congress is going to stop thinking of ways to stop online piracy. Just last night, my aunt was talking to me (well, my mom, but I was in the same room) you heard something about Congress is working a a way to limit our freedom of speech on the Internet because of happened with that ani-Muslim film on YouTube. Man, if they don't figure out a way to resolve that, another SOPA-like bill is going to pass.

Hey, why are even talking about this? We're not the government, although the wiki does act democratic with the Polls and all. Even one of the users on the wiki admitted that to me (not mentioning any names, and no, it's not Yata-senpai).-- Ninja Sheik  21:11, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I follow your point in the second paragraph. We're not the government, but what does that mean to this discussion? 21:13, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Nothing. Got side-tracked with Galaxy9000 and Unknownada. And just making a statement. You guys do like act you're a democracy, deciding on your personal wants instead of what's best for the wiki.-- Ninja Sheik  21:17, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but I don't think there's a single person on here that doesn't vote for what they think is best for the wiki. What's best for the wiki is a highly subjective idea that varies quite a lot from person to person. Again, I don't think there's anyone here that votes against what they think is best for the wiki. But I'm sure there are people who vote against what I personally think is best for the wiki. There's a distinct difference here. 19:41, October 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, I came name someone here who votes on something on personal preference, and not what's best for the Wiki. On the Forum: Manual of Style, DancePowderer posted, "America, f#%k yeah. I say American since, like JSD said, most articles are in it already and it's just less of a hassle." You see? DancePowderer clearly shows that rather just leave it as it, not because he thinks that was best for the wiki (without taking consideration of the fans around the world that would like to edit, already does edit, and the people who reads the wiki), he just want U.S English because it's "less of a hassle". Galaxy9000 and Sff9 merely wants to leave it "as it is", without taking in consideration the editors or the fans might see the alternative spelling of the words. After all, U.S citizens may be some that doesn't know that, for example, "honour" was actually an alternative spelling and not a spelling mistake. And the same goes for citizens outside the U.S, who are taught International English, because that is how they are taught.-- Ninja  Sheik  20:47, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

It is ignorant to say that piracy is ruining companies like Funimation and Toei like how some of you are implying. If piracy was as bad as you say then every single media company would have shut down a long time ago. Piracy is also not theft, it is copyright infringement. It is hypocritical to be against piracy when you yourself do it. It doesn't matter if you buy the product later, it is still piracy. The fansub article in particular should remain for people who are in countries where they cannot stream or have horribly overpriced import tax fees. Most people who come to this Wiki are from North America but that belongs in the other forum. LostandOld (talk) 06:30, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh? For the record, I did my research. I KNOW piracy is ruining companies like FUNimation and Toei. According to the data I gathered, Kadokawa Pictures USA had shut down due the increase of piracy. A post from Erin Fitzgerald, a voice actress, had confirmed that an anime she was working on was quickly canceled after its second or third episode due to piracy. Also, I have also heard that other companies suffered from piracy. Sure, there is a debatable argument at times that piracy actually "helps" anime companies succeed. But how much do you actually think that's true? Again, it's a huge debate that's going to continue, and will probably never been resolve. And let me correct you on something else: FUNimation and Toei has been working taking down piracy, and here's proof that I got from today. I read the Anime Network News, and since my brother also depends on piracy, I know when his favorite anime sites is down. Also, can you say it's hypocritical? It is true that in the past that I didn't know what piracy was and depended on it to watch anime, however, I don't do that anymore because I learned of the situation of piracy. But don't forget that wikis and Wikipedia itself is also considered piracy. I, however, do not think that. Do you know why? Because a rep from Sqaure Enix reached to the KH Wiki not too long and asked us for our collaboration to promote KH3D. That's why I know FUNimation approves of the wiki, and therefore doesn't mind the users here using piracy to gain information, because, well, for one thing, we're harmless. FUNimation is trying to work out a contract with the wiki, after all, and do you really think there's way for fans in the U.S. to know what happens in Japan's manga without piracy? Therefore, it can't be called piracy if FUNimation gives us their unspoken approval for the wiki. We just shouldn't promote it.-- Ninja Sheik  18:30, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

@NinjaSheik "Galaxy9000 and Sff9 merely wants to leave it "as it is", without taking in consideration the editors or the fans might see the alternative spelling of the words." Sorry, I'm not sure I understand, but it seems you're implying that we're not choosing what we think is best for the wiki. If it's the case, then you should realize that it's actually kinda insulting… Moreover, how do you know we did not take this "in consideration"? Every solution has its drawbacks, yet we must choose one. Anyway, what JSD meant is that you must assume good faith. If you're not, then no useful debate is possible. Please try, as hard as it is, to assume that your contradictors are neither stupid, nor hateful, nor wanting to ruin the wiki, and communication will be a lot easier.

Sorry, my Internet was acting funky and some of the words I typed must not have gotten through. But yeah, I think it'd be kinda weird and impossible to just "leave it as it is". After all, not all schools teach their students the difference between U.S English and U.K English (International, whatever you wish to call it). And some kids' parents don't teach them the difference, either, depending on where they learned it. I believe "leaving it as it is" will cause confusion and weirdness. For example, say you have this: "Despite not being a samurai, Zoro retains a code of honor (U.S spelling)." And then, let's say, five sentences later, there's a line that says, "Zoro made an honourable (International English spelling) sacrifice to save Luffy from Kuma."

Don't you think that would be pretty strange to see? If the wiki's readers see it, they will merely see it as a spelling mistake, not an alternative spelling because they may not know it, and correct it instead of "leaving it as it is". Not only that, they will not the sense on using both spellings when some article, per se, might just have ONLY U.S spelling and one with solely U.K spelling, depending who edits it. A wiki, any wiki at all, can be edit by anyone at any given time at a day and anywhere. Some of the users at the forum even admitted that live outside of the U.S, therefore we must consider the fans that visit wiki might also be from outside of the country because they might not know the difference from U.S and U.K spelling. That's what I'm trying to say. Spelling and grammar can be the cause for a lot of edit wars. Trust me, when the Narutopedia went through it we had a lot, even when we explained that we use U.K spelling, not the U.S. The ones that changing back to the U.S. had absolutely no idea what we were saying until he explained to those users in full detail. It's gotten better now after some time passed, but every now and then when people will change it back to the U.S.-- Ninja Sheik  20:40, October 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry to interrupt, but you guys are getting a little off topic on here. If you wish to keep this discussion, then go to Forum:Manual of Style or take it to your talk. Thanks. 21:06, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Apologies.-- Ninja Sheik  21:21, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

You don't know that because the only "research" you would have found would have been from bias websites like Funimation's own website and others. Even companies like the RIAA spreads lies and considers every single download a lost sale even if a person would have never bought the product. How are you going to correct me on something I never even said? Everybody knows they are trying to stop piracy, just like every other media company. You actually still pirate because you admitted on your talk page that you read the manga every week. Wikis are also not considered piracy. Some things on the wikias can be considered piracy, such as images but the actual wikis are not piracy. Fair Use Law also makes it so its okay to use the images therefore it isn't piracy even in that case. If your brother's sites go down then others will pop up. How old is he? He seems like he knows what he is doing if he can already find websites to watch anime.

Where would you even have "learned" the situation of piracy? From more bias websites? Bias people like Greg Ayres who say people in other countries should import even with horribly exorbitant import tax fees? The page itself may promote piracy with names but if links go then it is nowhere near as bad. You don't even care about other people in other countries since you flat out said you were going to report the fansub groups to Funimation. This page with names intact should remain for the people who cannot watch anime and read manga any other way than fansubs and scanlations. Honestly if you think this promotes piracy then why don't you also complain about episodes and chapter names which only use fansub/scanlation names or original translations? If you want to take this away from people who cannot watch and read any other way then it is quite selfish of you. LostandOld (talk) 04:49, October 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Exactly what this guy said. And like NS said, we have to consider that the wiki is read by people all over the world. Funimation doesn't distribute the anime everywhere, and for many people, they have to watch it through fansubs, because there is simply no alternative. Why should we lose our one place to find information on those who have released the series in a form we can actually watch just because of some shitty american copyright law that didn't even pass their parliament? 71.181.66.172 05:33, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

This isn't the "one place place to find information" on fansubs. There's a whole internet's worth of websites that can be used to find info, and this wiki doesn't need to be one of them. We're a One Piece encyclopedia, not a fansub advertising agency. 07:33, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

@LostandOld" Actually, yes. Wikis can count as piracy. There is a debate about that, but that haven't been resolve yet. And that's how I found about piracy and what it does to companies like FUNimation, Toei, Bandai, 4Kids, Kadokawa Pictures USA, and other companies. It's it's not piracy that closes down business, it's bankruptcy, in 4Kids' case.

Bias? I didn't get my information from FUNimation's websites. I got it from Anime News Network and Wikipedia and they're completely neutral. I think you're only supporting fansubs because you also use them, and calling people like Greg Ayres a "lair" is completely rude. So, really, you're the one that's being bias by allowing your personal feelings to decide your judgement. Anyway, why would companies and voice actors lie? If you go to an anime convention, every single voice actor/actress is going to say the same thing about piracy ruining business.

Research has also shown that companies usually shut down due to piracy because no one is buying their products and relaying on piracy to watch/read everything. The popular file sharing site known as Megaupload was taken down because of its size of copyright infringement. The popular, legal anime site known as Crunchyroll was also being threatened to be taken off the web until he signed an official, legal contract, allowing them to host animes to a great degree. Crunchyroll stated that it was committed to removing all copyright infringing material from its site and to hosting only content to which it had legitimate distribution rights, thus being one of the anime sites that actually became an official legal website for fans.

I do read the manga every wiki, but I do feel bad it. It's not like I WANT do it, it's that I HAVE to do it as an editor. Some of users even admit that although they do not support piracy, they read off anime sites and manga sites. I read off MangaStream, and they quickly remove their chapters off in respect towards official companies (and they like to view their website as "spoilers"). I read a while back that manga site popped up that allows people to read manga legally (no, I'm not making this up), but it was quickly shut down. I tried to search for ways to read manga chapters legally as as they come out, but to no avail. Anyway, I don't think FUNimation minds want the real users on the wiki have to do it to get information on the wiki since they see us harmless, proven with the fact that they're trying to work with the wiki. If they had a problem with it, then they should have said something already instead of trying to work out a contract with us. Therefore, I don't think the users here can actually count as pirates to FUNimation, because piracy is the illegal distribution and use of authorized works, but since FUNimation gave their unspoken approval that they understand that not all of the users here are in Japan and therefore cannot purchase SJ to read the new chapters every week.

I do understand that fans depend a lot on piracy, but it is ruining business for FUNimation and Toei. I tried telling my younger brother that, but he says that it he doesn't care because he just does whatever he wants without knowing of the consequences and he doesn't care if a business gets ruin or not. He's a kid, so that's natural that he thinks that way. Plus, it's not hard to find an anime site, you type whatever and it pops up, there's nothing special to it. You can still watch the episodes on FUNimation's website by using a proxy sever if you're out of the U.S. Oh, and I would complain about "episodes and chapter names which only use fansub/scanlation names or original translations", but the wiki do use the official translation for the episode titles for the arcs they do have, and chapter names will take a while to out from Viz Media. Besides, I'm just doing minor edits and trying to keep out of trouble. And it's not selfish, you can buy the manga and watch the anime legally. The series goes to many parts of the world (the wiki has the DVDs covers to prove it), so they can get it another way. They just refuse not to.

@Anonymous User: It's like Zodiaque said. We're not a fansubbing agency. We're an encyclopedia so that fans can read about the series, not go to illegal websites and watch the series for free and ruin FUNimation and Toei's business. And the U.S is trying to protect the media industries. Hello, that's why they tried to pass SOPA and PIPA. And they're still fighting against it, too.-- Ninja Sheik  17:55, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, "Anime News Network", a commercial site dedicated to news about anime in the US, UK, and Australia (ie: places where anime is available legally), clearly they are not biased in regards to international issues. (that's sarcasm in case anybody wants to misunderstand that.) You cannot assume someone is "unbiased" just because they say so on their front page and you agree with what they say, you have to do objective research into their validity, and understand their perspective on certain issues. (any higher level learning will require you to do this in any academic endeavor involving citations, so you'd better start now) And you should also not assume that your own opinion is not biased, NS, because with the current state of the poll and the ferocity with which you defend this issue reflects that 1) There are more sides to this issue than your own, and a large number of people disagree with you. and B) Your own rage shows that you care far too much about this issue to think clearly and objectively about it. And I don't give a shit about the US laws that are being made or not, I was merely stating that this is an international issue and only considering the opinion of the US government is frankly retarded. (much like the US government) And using DVDs is impossble for us due to the regional coding on the DVDs. And using a proxy server to watch things on streaming sites intended for the US is just as illegal as pirating.

@Zodiaque: Any person with a computer and access to google can find fansubs. But this wikia is the only place I've found with a reliable list of their names and the quality of (and lack thereof) their work. That is what I mean by "information on fansubs". I don't wish to use this wikia as a means to access piracy, but as a means to understand where I am getting my information from. In order to avoid the mistakes and bias that fansubs can create. 71.181.66.172 18:50, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

First off, please use formality and address me as NinjaSheik, not NS. I believe that nicknames should only be used by others if they are close to the person or given permission to do so. I like to use proper etiquette when addressing someone by their name or usernames.

Don't you think you you're being a bit harsh with the "I-don't-care-about-the-U.S-laws" thing (and please do not use the "R" word) when the government is trying their best? You know, Congress is made up individuals, too, so yeah, it's going to take time to come to a proper decision. And what do you mean I assumed someone is "unbiased" just because they agree with me? So, are you saying that those who do not agree with me are "unbiased" as well? Everyone keeps saying that fansubs are part of the series' history when they are not. Piracy is against the laws, but since so many people depend on it, they feel as if they are important to the actual series itself even though they have absolutely no connection whatsoever when it came to the production of the series or the creation of the plotline. Therefore, since fansubs are merely ripped offs and took no part in the actual series, they do not count as the series' history. That's why the users are voting for the second poll because they feel as fansubs are important, even when though they are against the law and is therefore bias because it's based off their emotions about the subject. You can only say that it's "unbiased" if you have thought over the situation clearly from both sides, which I have.

I know that piracy has its many sides. I never said that it didn't, and I even said that there's a debate about it that has not been resolved. This isn't my "rage", it's my determined logic and I'm not blinded by it. Have you forgotten that I used piracy before I learned what it is? I stated both sides to one of the most common arguments between fans.

Yes, fans do depend A LOT on piracy for many reasons. One, they are unable to afford the DVDs. Two, it's easy and fast. Three, you cannot access the episodes from official websites or get your hands on the DVDs from wherever you are. Speaking of which, where do you live, Anonymous User 71.181.66.172, seeing as you posted, "And using DVDs is impossible for us due to the regional coding on the DVDs."? Before I knew what piracy was, I depended on it a lot and kept using repeatedly. It wasn't until I decided to look up the word that I understood what fans are and what they do to companies. Afterwards, I tried to finally legal site where I can free anime, like on Crunchyroll (I watch Naruto there legally) and FUNimation's official website (for One Piece legally). Eventually, I encountered others who are also aware of the situation of the whole "piracy is ruining businesses" and who encourage others to do whatever it takes to watch anime legally as best they can. In retrospect, I felt really bad that I used piracy for so long without thinking about the people who worked so hard on it and trying to protect their products, and because I tried my best to read new chapters, I relayed on MangaStream do read it (although I think it's really cool of them to take off the chapters quickly in respect to official companies, kinda like MangaFox), it's still using piracy (although I do try to repent by supporting the series. There is also a debate about that I see a lot about if it's all right to use piracy if you still support the piracy. Has not be resolved). So, I decided to help the promotion of piracy the best I can. With one look at the Fansub page, any official company could see that such a page looks like it's promoting piracy by explaining the fansubers and the quality of the work since it looks like you're praising them. Also, the page used to have links to anime sites like Anime Crazy before I pointed them out and a user removed them.

Because I understand the situation and the use of fansubs, it's why I'm not being bias. If I was acting out of bias, I would be saying piracy is all right if you support the series (again, it's a debate between fans. Still on-going). I mean, my brother depends on it a lot and he's going to be upset if he won't be able to watch his favorite animes online anymore. So, I can only be bias because I'm decisions based off my personal feelings instead of using my head and take in consideration for the hard-working people of FUNimation and Toei. They're going to take down anime sites and file-sharing torrents off the web sooner or later, and shouldn't it be the job of the fans that wants One Piece to stop such a thing from spreading and getting worse? I don't FUNimation to die out like Bandai. I know it sucks that we all have to resort of piracy to get what we want (although others may not feel bad because they don't know the situation or they don't care), but it's the law. I don't like using piracy, yet I use it to read manga. I do know what this means if I report it, and I'm prepared for it, otherwise I wouldn't send FUNimation the information about the Fansub page.-- Ninja Sheik  21:27, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

FUNimation isn't the only company that legally sub One Piece. There are plenty of companies in the world that dub One Piece, legally, and not just in English, but also in different languages. Not only that, if you was to google up, "One Piece episodes subbed (insert any language name)", there would be a lot of results for that. This wiki is only about One Piece, not a fansite promoting fansubs for everyone who watch One Piece. Fansubs subs One Piece, okay, that we all know. It can be on the page. But not the names. Not the links. They are promoting piracy and fansubs, ruining FUNimation and Toei's business. The names and links also make it look like we are also supporting piracy and fansubs over legal companies and copyrights laws.

Like Ninja said, you know what drove 4Kids to stop dubbing One Piece? No one were using the company for One Piece, they were using fansubs and scans, which ruined its business. Great, 4Kids was awful anyway. Now FUNimation dub AND sub One Piece. And they do a pretty great job of it. You want to drive FUNimation out of the business for One Piece, and get stuck with another awful dubbing company?

This wiki's page for fansubs is seriously outdated, and really need to be updated. But no one are doing it. Therefore, the list of fansubs is not exactly reliable right now. Plus, there are other sites with lists of fansubs that are far more reliable than this list. Last I checked anyway.

Call me biased, or whatever, but I just want the best for this wiki, One Piece, and all of the legal companies that own at least part of One Piece, manga or anime, and I believe that removing the names of the fansubs and the links from the page and changing it into a more neutral article is the best for this wiki and One Piece in general. 21:59, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Wow, Jademing, you know what happened to 4Kids, too? :) I thought only my sister, me, and Yu-Gi-Oh fans knew. Yeah, you're right. Konomi purchased 4Kids after its bankruptcy since no one was buying products due of piracy. 4Kids was really old and it stunk (although I do read that lots of fans did like 4Kids) and it gotten into a lawsuit thing with the Yu-Gi-Oh series. I thought no one knew what happened to it since they didn't care, you know, since everyone nowadays (especially the One Piece fans) only bring 4Kids' name when complaining how bad it was. Kinda feel bad for the company, but Konomi is now in possession of it and because it added new shows to their new program, I hear it's doing great so far. The great thing is that didn't even fire the voice actors/actresses. They allowed them to keep their jobs at the company, so that's a relief for them. :)-- Ninja Sheik  22:14, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Wrong. 4kids stopped dubbing One Piece because they decided it would be impossible to tone down the nature of the series if they kept going. Funimation is going nowhere, even with the fansubs out they have still sold well enough to license up to Ice Hunter. The fansubs have a rightful place in the history of the series and just naming them promotes piracy as much as me telling someone what happened in a movie. Also NS, keep the personal talk off the forum. 22:18, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Please address me as NinjaSheik, not NS, Galaxy9000. And yeah, I knew that. One Piece was canceled from 4Kids due its violence (and I never agreed about the part that 4Kids stop dubbing One Piece due to piracy, just the part that the whole company is dead and brought) 4Kids failed, but Jademing has half-right. 4Kids went into bankruptcy and was then brought by Konomi.

Fansubs do not deserve a place in the history. After all, it did create the show, produce it, design, purchase it under legal rights, voice it or anything. The key is to why they shouldn't be listed is this: fan. That's it. As fans, we have no direct involvement with the series itself, therefore fansubbers shouldn't be list.-- Ninja Sheik  22:44, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Wow... I didn't follow the discussion (and also didn't notice it got this huge), but I think I grasp the gist of it. I's like to clarify (at least for what I understand) some points:
 * There was a great "legal" concern about fansubs, promoting piracy (make the wiki piracy), copyright, SOPA and whatever, but that's not really concern us. We are not providing full episodes (ironically we can do that since we got Funanimation permission) or chapters or any other kind of copyright materials. The biggest issue we could possibly have is having some images that doesn't qualify as fair use, in which case if the legit copyright holder will ever care about having free advertisement of his product, he will contact Wikia and complain there and if Wikia cannot reach a compromise it will simply take down the incriminated image. That's all. The SOPA thing is a problem for wikis not because they will become piracy, but because if the author demands the deletion of some contents the wiki HAVE to delete it without even stating its reasons, this is a completely one-side decision. If you have other legal concerns, I can ask directly the staff which is obviously better informed then me.
 * About promoting piracy, I don't really think that's the case because we are simply reporting informations and that's all. If you want some reference what about this this Wikipedia page? It's the page of The Pirate Bay, link included, one of the most popular website for download "illegal" stuff. So if Wikipedia can do that I don't really think we have a problem here.
 * About having the page itself, I don't really know... on one hand I like non-canonical page on the wiki about companies, merchandise, abstract subjects etc. because they distinguish the wiki from Wikipedia and other average One Piece fan-site. On the other hand there is still the "pirate group thing", which I'm not concerned about for legal reasons but simply for "etiquette" and honestly because maybe it's not really that interesting and half-complete (we should have the scanlator groups for consistency too). Maybe I favour more keep them then removing them, but probably I won't even vote.

Doesn't matter if they didn't create it. Without them the gap between 230 - 390 would be unavailable so they have definitely contributed more than you think. They are part of the history of the series whether you like it or not. 22:48, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

That wasn't directed at you Levi, it was directed at Sheik. 22:54, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Please, address me as NINJASHEIK. Not NS, not Ninja, not Sheik. NinjaSheik. I like formality, please, Galaxy9000. I think it does matter that fansubs create the series or not. They "history" you speaking about is non-related to the actual series and illegal, therefore does not count. I have no problem if the pages describe what fansubs are and that many people used them, thus covering the 230-390 gap. The fansubs are not part of the series' history whether you like it or not.-- Ninja Sheik  23:12, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, using the exact same thing I said and using your own biased opinions is great and all. Fansubs are illegal sure, but even Levi mentioned above that the mention of the fansubbers would not be piracy promoting, just like wikipedia advertises Pirate Bay. Tell me then, if they're not part of the series history, then I guess you think they just don't exist then? 23:15, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

They're not "biased" because it's true. To the actual production of One Piece, they are not part of the series' history because they are not legal and had no direct involvement.

If you want to think fandom, then you might as well count in the fanart and AMVs while you're at it since they're not that much different. All of them are made by FANS, not officials.-- Ninja Sheik  23:32, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Big difference there. Fansubs actually have a presense in the history of the series unlike fanart and AMVs. Ahaha no, those articles are there because wikipedia is about providing INFORMATION, something we should we doing as well, which removing the names would result in a LOSS of information. 23:36, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

I believe the point is if we think a reader would be interested in that or not and it they will add content to the wiki or not instead of being part of the serie's story.

@Galaxy9000: But the article is only there because of the international issue is caused to lot of the countries. Wikipedia makes articles about anything scandalous and that has a HUGE impact onto the world. Fansubs may have a presence in One Piece, merely because they pirated them and thus are illegal and will be taken down, thanks the the current page which I have already sent to FUNimation.-- Ninja Sheik  23:40, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

That does matter more Levi, and the article does help with that for sure. That's cool Sheik, i'm sure plenty of people have done that. If you really think all the fansubs will just disappear you are sadly mistaken. 23:46, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

@Leviathan_89: I hardly think anyone cares who these fansub groups on the page anymore. When I search for YouTube uploaders violating copyright infringement, I see that everyone's been uploading the clips or episodes from FUNimation's subs and no longer fansubs. After all, any fan can subbed an episode. My sister frequents the Yu-Gi-Oh and she once told me that she viewed a discussion between the editors there that a random fansubber popped up one day and subbed ONE episode because they ones that usually subs it was taking two long. My sister also visits forums and she tells me that the old fansub group that subbed the episodes quit and no one cared since it was picked by another fansubber. I don't know the name, but that's what my sister told me from the discussion at the forums.

@Galaxy9000: By the tone in your message, I have a funny feeling that you depend on fansubs a lot and are emotional attached to them, but that's just a gut feeling. Fansubs will disappear as long as companies like FUNimation are working to take them down. And please address me as NinjaSheik. I told you multiple times already. Why can't you do this simple request? Please address me in the formal etiquette.-- Ninja Sheik  00:29, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

I don't depend on them as much as you think. I watch the funimation subs with my sister every week and then go and download the episode from whichever fansub has it out. I depend on them for the sole purpose of if I ever decide to rewatch the series I have easy access in a folder and don't have to deal with commercials or ads. Fansubs have been around for YEARS and as long as anime fans still exist they will never be gone. 00:39, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

Why do you download it? It's going to be on the site, I don't think there's any need to do it. I know the Ads are annoying, but FUNimation gets paid for Ads time. My sister finds it annoying too when we watch One Piece, but when I told her that, she shimmered down and doesn't mind the Ads as much as anymore because she knows it's helping FUNimation. Aaannd...it gives her time to run out to get a snack and come back. And I don't think fansubs are really necessary anymore because of offical subbing sites like Cruchyroll. They were an illegal anime-subbing site, too, and was forced to take down their subs in respect for the companies. Afterwards, it came back and became an official subbing site backed by the companies and now host millions of titles, which I think is great. It's nice to know that they are fansubbers that has a lot of respect and are willingly to take down their illegal episodes for the companies, and then try to work out a contract in order to obey the laws. That's very admirable in my eyes. Cruchyroll is a great and respectful people to to work their hardest to be backed legally by companies. It shows that with a bit effort, maybe other anime sites can become legal, too. Wishful thinking, I know, but who knows. If Cruchyroll can do it, I'm sure other sites might be able to do it, too. -- Ninja Sheik  00:45, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

It's necassary because Funi often puts out a very rushed translation and they use crap translations such as "Hordy Jones". I like having the subs that put more work into it in my folders. 00:49, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

They're not crappy, at least, not to me. I don't think they're exactly rushed, they do have their own Japanese translator, but don't forget that fansubs can also make mistakes regarding names. Back when I was still using fansubs, I watched an anime that mistranslated the name "Juri" for "Julie" because of the common pronounceable with the 'L' and 'R". That can happen to anyone, professionals or not. Besides, lots of the characters have different alternative names and the wiki lists them.-- Ninja Sheik  00:55, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

I dont really see the problem with keeping or removing this page. But honestly it seems to be too unofficial to be on a wikia. The title is pretty self explanatory: Fansubs. This is a wikia not a fanon. Removing it is really no problem, its not like it will be a massive blow or something. You can go anywhere on the internet to look up fansubs. In the end its a pretty useless page. -- 01:00, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

@Ninjasheik, fansubbers actually listen to the ones who comment on their subs and will change things if nessacary, Funimation continues to use "Hordy Jones" even after Oda romanized it in chapter 631.

@Hungry: it belongs because it provides information, it is only meant for that purpose. 01:04, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

I want to address the idea that has been brought up several times in this debate. The idea that "The fansubs are not a part of the history of the series." I think that due to the Funimation Gap, the lack of nearly all the movies, and the lack of proper subs for several years, that they are. But, I think they are not as valuable as official sources, but still have some value to series like Funi etc. This is why we have Funimation's titles on the pages, and not ones from Yibis or whoever it is that still makes them. That is why the information on fansubs is mostly contained on this page, and this page alone. To get rid of the names would be a disservice to some, and a general loss of information for all. 01:11, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

@Gal Thats fine and all but honestly everybody here is taking this a little too seriously. Bringing piracy into this and shit? like wtf. Talk about day-time-emmy. this is looking like a youtube video comments section. this is talk about a fansub page, promoting piracy? good god, and hurting toei and funi? yea man, our fansub page is really hurting toei and funis revenue stream. keep it dont keep it, its whatever. just try to keep things a little less dramatic thats all i ask. -- 01:12, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

@Galaxy9000: Well, it's not like Oda-sensei perfect either. With the whole thing with Big Mam or Mom thing, or the tiny error with Zoro's scar. Translation can be bit tricky sometimes, and I don't mind. I guess it's because how it sounds in the Japanese, it's why they keep it that way. Like I said, there are lots of alternative spellings. Sure, Viz Media does the same thing with Zoro to Zolo, but it's just minor stuff. Sure, it's a bit annoying, but I got over. I know which the correct version, and really, to me, that's it matters. It is kinda funny that although FUNimation and Viz Media are working together, FUNimation uses "Zoro" and Viz Media uses "Zolo" for the manga translations even after the timeskip (I read the manga when they are officially released in volumes. Like to compare translations once and a while).

@Imhungry4444: Don't forget to vote, if you want to.-- Ninja Sheik  01:14, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

Wikis do not count as piracy. They never do. You seriously think ANN is neutral? Zac Bertschy who is the chief editor of ANN constantly says piracy is bad in anything he writes. ANN is most definitely not neutral so you got the information from a bias website. Where did I call Greg Ayres a liar? I said he is bias. There is also no research showing that. Usually what happens is horrible business strategies such as licensing something nobody would watch. Also those companies claim that when a person who pirates it is always a lost sale. The person can just be downloading to see if they would like to buy the product or if they don't have a choice like already mentioned many times before. A person who downloads something and never intended on buying the product is not a lost sale.

You do not have to read the manga illegally. You can buy a subscription to Shounen Jump Alpha even if they are not as good as scanlations. I know exactly what site you are talking about. It was called OpenManga and it didn't go anywhere at all. All they did was create a splash page saying "coming soon". Piracy is not ruining business like you claim. Only the companies claim that it hurts the businesses which makes it inaccurate and bias. Proxies do not work all the time and a lot get blocked easily. They are also usually illegal.

Honestly I have to ask again, how old is your brother? You're calling him a "kid" but he could be 13-16 for all we know which means he is old enough to know what he is doing.The wiki does not use official translations anywhere except in the infobox to show what the English versions use. You are incredibly selfish because you think the people in countries with asinine import tax fees should always buy the product. You are also lying and saying these people can get it some other way. There's also no evidence that people would even use the fansubs if they are mentioned. Removing the names would be like having Wikipedia ban all articles about drugs and forbidding anyone to mention them just because someone MIGHT get curious about trying drugs.

You really do not understand this at all. Piracy DOES NOT effect companies like you have been repeatedly saying. There are always other factors. Piracy can have a small effect but not on par with other reasons such as bad business decisions. ADV went out of business because they licensed too many shows.You also do not understand what it means to report the fansubbers. If the fansubbers are removed then because of what you did then you are just giving a giant middle finger to people in other countries who you keep ignoring in every single response. You have revealed yourself to be very selfish because you do not care about people in other countries.

Jademing, if you searched for subs in other languages you would ONLY get fansubber results in those languages. What happened to 4Kids is that they had ruined One Piece with their edits and then people found out and started turning to fansubbers. Funimation doesn't ruin One Piece and only has some minor errors like using Bon Clay instead of Bon Kurei. I know a lot of people who watch both Funimation subs and fansubs and also buy the DVDs. Fansubbers DO NOT ruin their business.

As Galaxy also said the fansubbers have been a huge part to the success of One Piece's popularity in countries other than Japan. They started doing the series because 4Kids was ruining the series and then many fans switched to them and used them. Crunchyroll are hypocrites. They supported fansubs for many years then suddenly they decided to become "legal" and say fansubs are bad. Plus their translations are not as good as fansubbers. LostandOld (talk) 22:12, October 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but what the heck do you mean by that, LostandOld? ".... if you searched for subs in other languages you would ONLY get fansubber results in those languages." I don't understand that..... 22:34, October 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * I would totally counter your argument, LostandOld, but then I'll be just wasting my time. There are a bunch of people that will disagree with you, LostandOld, and there are also those that may not. This is one of the most common heated debates among fans throughout the Internet, and I think everyone has stated their point repeatedly throughout this forum. Everyone has their on individual thoughts on the matter, so let's just leave it be and let them vote. All of us have been going around in circles, so there no point on continuing this debate on a forum meant only to discuss the Fansub page's status. Everyone said what they wanted to say, and arguing this far is getting out of hand. I think we should just stop and let everyone vote on what they think is the best way of handling it (of course, you need to be on this wiki for 3 months to vote, according to the rules). This is getting tiring, seriously, and I think it's time to bring this discussion to a close. Both sides have stated their reasons, so there's reason to continue. This is page really getting out of hand, and I would like it to stop. If everyone wants to continue arguing the subject, they can do it on the other forums or on the Chat since I think that's best. Can everyone agree on that, please?-- Ninja Sheik  23:02, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

Because there are very rarely any subbed anime in non-English languages unless they were done by fansubbers, Jademing.

Are you serious NinjaSheik? You didn't counter any arguments at all this entire time. You ignored the fact that people in other countries other than the U.S. and Canada would be screwed. The fansub names should remain for these people. There is no good reason to remove them. You also say your brother is a "kid who doesn't know any better but you never even said how old he is. He could be older than you for all we know or just a year younger than you. You implied that only kids would find nothing wrong with downloading fansubs. Not many people would disagree with what I said if they saw this. You just implied that what I said was completely wrong by saying "some" people would agree with it.

You also ignored the drug statement. The fact that the fansub names are here DOES NOT mean that somebody would automatically use them. LostandOld (talk) 04:21, October 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with Lost. You haven't countered our arguments, or answered our questions, girlie. But I am gonna take the time to counter all of yours.

"Don't you think you you're being a bit harsh with the "I-don't-care-about-the-U.S-laws" thing (and please do not use the "R" word) when the government is trying their best?" No, I'm not being harsh at all. I simply give zero shits about US laws because I do not live in the US, and I should not be limited by their laws. It doesn't matter how hard they try, and if it did, I would probably just think less of them.

"And what do you mean I assumed someone is "unbiased" just because they agree with me?" What I mean is that you have jumped to the conclusion that ANN is unbiased. I think the basis of this hasty conclusion is that they said some pretty words, and you agreed with them, and now you don't see any bias. When you find yourself in a situation like that, and one where the bias of your source matters, you should step back and do research into possible reasons for bias. The same is true for people you don't agree with. If your reaction is to think their words are total bullshit and full of bias, you also need to step back research into possible reasons for bias. Bias is everywhere, and it is in ALL forms, and you have to be able to objectively look for bias and bias alone sometimes.

"So, are you saying that those who do not agree with me are "unbiased" as well?" No, I am not. See the above response.

JSD responds quite well to your statement "Everyone keeps saying that fansubs are part of the series' history when they are not" and everyone in this forum ignored his idea, both those who could potentially agree with it, and those who could disagree. But I agree with it, and I want to let him know that.

"Speaking of which, where do you live, Anonymous User 71.181.66.172?" I live on a small island nation. That's all you need to know, frankly. I don't have any "official sources" in my country. But the restrictions that other countries put on their own official content prevents me from accessing it as well. Do you know how regional coding works on DVDs? It makes it so that the DVD players you buy have a regional code, and they will only play DVDs with the same regional code. Since my code is different from for example, the US's, I cannot play the DVDs of Funimation. Computers can actually change their regional code in order to deal with people who may move from one region to another. So it is possible to change the region there, but only 3-6 times over the computer's life. DVDs are impossible for me to use. Many streaming sites do exist, yet I've never found one that is legal that works in my country. And in an earlier post you mentioned using proxy servers to gain access to US streaming sites, and I just want to stress again that this is yet another illegal activity. And since you know about this technique, I hope you can forgive me for telling you that if you are using proxy servers to watch anything, that due to your moral convictions against piracy and breaking the law, that you should probably stop.

In the last paragraph of the post I've been responding to, I honestly can't tell what you are saying. Are you admitting that you have bias? Or are you affirming yet again that you are unbiased? I can't tell. (Also, I don't know why so many people in this forum are saying "I am bias" or something similar when it should be "I am biased") As for the rest of the paragraph in regards to the effects of piracy, other users did a better job at responding than I could.

Leviathan's points are also very good and deserve more credit, attention, and praise.

The rest of this forum doesn't really warrant my response. Due to to some of the needless bringing up of the manual of style forum, I've checked it out and seen a couple more bits of your opinions on things, ninjasheik. One thing you say in support of using international english is that "The wiki is going to get many different editors from the world". That is entirely true, the wiki is used by many people who are from outside the US. But I don't see how you can apply that idea to something as simple as spelling, but not apply it to a complex issue like piracy. I find the amount of hypocrisy there staggering. 71.181.66.172 08:37, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

LostandOld and Anonymous user 71.181.66.172, I did counter the arguements. But if you want me to repeat myself, then I will. I did respond to this point: "You ignored the fact that people in other countries other than the U.S. and Canada would be screwed." Because I used to use piracy, I fully understand what will happened if fansubs are gone. And for that, you find me "selfish", correct? However, did you ever stop to think about the companies? How they affect from piracy? Also, how you call me "selfish" if you being selfish yourself because you don't care about the companies and not caring what will happen if fansubs continue to be around? I never stated that piracy was the sole reason why companies go out of business. I’m fully aware that there are others, but piracy is one of the main ones.

Fansubbers are selfish because even when companies like FUNimation reports to take their products off, what do they do? They don’t listen and just keep doing whatever they want, ignoring the companies’ request. And although fansubbers are heavily depended on fans from inside and outside of the U.S, that does not change the fact that are illegal and companies are doing their best to get rid of them. I myself will feel sad when fansubs are gone and the same goes for manga scanlations. There’s a new manga that I heard is out of Japan, and I really want to read it, but because I live in the U.S and you two don’t not, I can see why you don’t care whatever happens as long as you get your fansubs. Fansubs are illegal and people can get arrested for it. However, I don’t want to use fansubs if it means ruining companies like FUNimation. Again, I’m not saying that piracy is the only reason why they get ruin, but it is one of the main ones. Funimation and other companies have rights to protect the rights of their companies, and are doing their best, http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2011-01-25/funimation-sues-1337-bittorrent-users-over-one-piece as seen here]. Have I been tempted to use piracy again? Heck yeah, I have. I want to watch the Enies Lobby Arc on my computer, but I didn’t. I know that not everyone outside the U.S depend heavily on piracy and that goes vice versa. After all, U.S citizens depend those who live in Japan to upload the episodes even when they are illegal. That’s the only way to get the episodes beside downloading it from the Japanese website. As I said before, I will be sadden if the animes and mangas that are coming out soon that I wanna won’t be available to me, but I can also read it about it on Wikipedia and wait until it comes out. Sorry, but I won’t be selfish and watch illegal fansub whenever I want when it’s damging FUNimation. Kadokawa USA quit when they were in the middle of dubbing one of my favorite animes. And you have no right to call me selfish when you are selfish, as well. Try thinking about the U.S citzens that are trying to support their favorite companies by buying the DVDs, and yet everyone else is relaying on piracy to meet their needs. Fansubbers, who not obey when companies apporached and asked them to take off their products, are selfish because they do not think of how the fansubs affct the companies.

And why do you care so much about my brother? Like how you onscured your information of your location, I cannot give out any personal information about my brother without his expressed permission. You probably say to me, LostandOld, :Then just ask for permission”, or something like that. My brother is fully aware I edit wikis, but since he’s the complete opposite of me, he vandalizes them instead of editing them. He even told me did so, and I scolded him. He never did it again, but I still talk to him about the wikis and he just says, “Whatever.” He’s more a video gamer than an animator. He doesn’t even watch that much anime nor does he get the DVDs. When I tried to explain the situation to him about piracy, he just shrugged and returned to his bedroom. The only reason why I said that my brother used piracy is because I did not find that sort information personal, since everyone uses piracy one way or another. And being a video gamer isn’t much of a personal information, either. Lots of people are gamers. I’m not saying just “kids” use fansubs. Everyone does it, but my brother fails to see the gravity of the situation and does not care. He doesn’t care if the companies goes to ruin or not.

As for the drug thing, Wikipedia does write about it stuff like drugs in full details, but remember that Wikipedia writes anything, ranging from drugs, celebrities, TV shows, scandals, and murders. What do they all have in common? They have HUGE IMPACTS across the world. Yes, removing information about drugs would be a loss of information, but to compare a major deal to drugs to fansubs isn’t a good comparison. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fansub I saw the fansub article on Wikiepdia. Although they even show how to make fansubs, you don’t see then listing every fansub groups on there, do you?] And Wikipedia also wrote that piracy can also be the cause of companies’ downfalls. Do you consider them bias too, much like ANN? Look, me telling FUNimation and other companies of the law isn’t just affecting you or eveyrone outside the countries that do not have excess to resources. You don’t think I want to keep watching animes that aren’t liscened legally, because I do and there is an anime that I want to watch it comes comes and a manga I want to read when it comes out. But companies are working really hard to get them out and yet fansuba are ruining their business. It’d be selfish for fansubs to keep going what they’re doing without thinking about the companies.

And even though there is no gurantee that people will use the information on this page to look up fansubs, there is also a guarantee that they will. It really depends on the people at them, don’t you agree? I read fights on forums, on YouTube, or websites, and lots of people admit that they: 1.) Do watch anime and read manga legally. 2.) Don’t do them legally. 3.) They do both, thinking that using piracy and supporting at the same time is okay.

And you wanna know the reason why I have use SJA? I did ask my mother and because I’m still a teenager, my parent still has authority over me, just like everyone else out there below the ages of 18. Heck, sometimes people with legal ages still obey their parents whether they like or not. My parent understand that I want them, but she finds no point of getting SJA do read only two manga and not read the rest. SJA features many manga and when the series(s) are I like are on breaks, then SJA will be sent to our house even though are not interested in the others. Sure, I guess most people go behind their parents back and do whatever they want like smoke and do drugs, but not me. I’m not going behind my parent’s back and be dishonest with her. Before, my school suscribed SJA, so I read it there, but due to some issues with the school, they ceased doing that and I was forced to read it illegal again. But, I still support the series legally because I want the sales to be awesome, so the companies can get money to liscense more. I heard liscesning is very expensive, so I gotta show my support.

As for the proxy servers, thing is, I never used them. Someone told me about them, but I never used them. I didn’t know they were illegal. So, no, you say that I’m breaking the law because I’m not using them. So, yeah, I’m in the clear with the proxy servers. I just heard someone can use, but that person never said anything about being illegal. Now that I think about it, a friend of mine in school uses proxy severs to bypass the school to access YouTube and stuff. And the teachers sometimes as the students to use them in order to show us a video on whatever subject we’re learning about that can only be found there. I never knew they were illegal, I just knew that people used them.

Also, it’s not hypocrisy. What I stated on the Manuel of Style Forum and here, there are two different cases. A wiki can be edit by anyone, from everyone all over the world. And although I heard some people think that wikis are piracy because of the images and they use piracy themselves (although I think companies do approve of the wikis doing what they have to do to deliver information, thus you can’t call it piracy anymore. However, I heard that Fair Image Use does not guarantee that the pictures uploaded here are legal, or anywhere for that matter. Using a picture without the expressed permission of the owner is piracy. Doing anything without the permission of the owners is considered illegal), I don’t really consider someone editing information on a series to be illegal, Wikipedia does it, too, and they’re legal. Using fansubs and editing a wiki is two completely different things. I heard that some people considered wikis piracy, I can understand that, but I don’t agree with that they are. You think writing a paragraph in a certain spelling about what happened in the series can compare to the illegal use and distrubition of piracy? Using a certain spelling isn’t illegal, piracy is. I don’t think it’s very appropriate to compare the two to each other. After all, we don't other people to get into trouble.

Lastly, I like to apologize for answering both of your questions, LostandOld and Anonymous User, in one huge reply. Currently, I’m in school and because the school’s Internet is not great and is very out of date, I wish to reply quickly as possible. And I had no time to separate my respones to the two of you. I realize that is incredibly rude, but seeing that school website is laggy and I have no authority to make changes on the out-dated computers at the school, it cannot be helped, so please excuse me for addressing both of you questions as one instead of two. Oh, did I miss anthing? The computers are my school isn't vey good with movements so I might have missed something by accident. But I promise to address them as soon as I get home. And if I said something that was not one of your questions, I apologize and will correct my reponses later. Like I said, the school's computers are laggy and it messes up what I'm reading because the window goes back up or moves unexpectedly for some reason.-- Ninja Sheik  17:23, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

You've said it yourself in here, NS, this is an issue with many sides and there is no clear answer. I am going to continue to use fansubs as they are my only source, regardless of this argument. This argument has been repeatedly taken farther than it should have been, into an all-out argument against all piracy ever. Context has been lost. I ask you to you answer this one question:

Why should I be denied the information that this article contains?

There are two sides to this issue, and both should be seen as legitimate until proven otherwise. However, my side isn't oppressing the needs of the other. Yours is trying to remove a page with information that mine needs to have. It is oppressing us. You are preventing us from getting information about all of the fansubs out there. If we are truly seeing both sides as equals, you should be able to put the legal argument (especially that of the US, and not other countries) on the backburner and tell me why I should not be able to access this information.

And I agree with the others who have voted on my side, the page does need a rewrite and a disclaimer. This isn't even an argument against one side vs. the other, this an argument about one side vs. a compromise. So why must you be just as ferociously opposed to a compromise as to the complete opposite position of yours? Why can't you believe in moderation? 71.181.66.172 17:41, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

Will everyone stop addressing me by a nickname, please? It's very informal to address a stranger by a nickname when you don't anything about the person or is given permission to address him/her as such. After all, not everyone might like the nicknames they get. Use formality, not familiarity, it's proper manners to address those by their names and not nicknames until you get to know that person. And didn't I say this page was getting out of hand already? The only reason I replied was because you and LostandOld did, so I felt obligated. So, as I and Anonymous User 71.181.66.172 have stated, this forum has gotten out of hand.

And, Anonymous User 71.181.66.172, if you want to continue using fansubs, then go ahead. I can't force you do anything you don't want to, especially since we're the Internet and don't each other. You have your reasons to do things, reasons I'm sure others will agree on, and I have my own reasons to do things, as many people will also agree on. I have seen arguments over piracy a lot, and they usually just die out. But one thing I have seen by reading over the discussions on YouTube and forums that is hardly solves anything. We all have our own beliefs on what's right and wrong. There two sides to this, and last I checked, the Poll is even a good example. We're 9-to-9 right now. We can debate about piracy, which is better: Japanese or English (don't start), and stuff like that all we want, but we all have our convictions on the matter. Arguing further would be pointless, as I said. And for the record, I'M not oppressing you. The government is. Piracy is illegal every where and it's the government that sets the rules and enforce them. If you think I'm oppressing you, you might as say that FUNimation and Toei is oppressing you as well. After all, they're the ones who are combating piracy by tracking them down. I'm just obeying the rules.

And as we've said before, there are two sides to this, as the Poll has shown. Like you agree with the others on the compromise, there are also those who not agree on it. And it has nothing to do with me babbling on about the matter. The Polls were created for a reason based on the users' thoughts, not just mine. If you think I don't believe in moderation, then you better say that to Jademing and everyone who agrees with me to be fair because they also voted for the Poll I did, without my influence. I never forced anyone to accept my way. Sure, I can talk about to others, but when it comes right down to it, it's the people's will that decide. I never put them under duress. Everyone believes in that, and I won't never forced someone to do what they what do to. They make the choice.-- Ninja Sheik  18:28, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

Then allow me to formally ask the users NinjaShiek, The Humanoid Typhoon, Jademing, Zodiaque, Yatanogarsu, LPK, X-Raptor, Troll King, and Kuro Ashi the following question:

Why should I be denied the information that this article contains? There are two sides to this issue, and both should be seen as legitimate until proven otherwise. However, my side isn't oppressing the needs of the other. Yours is trying to remove a page with information that mine needs to have. It is oppressing us. You are preventing us from getting information about all of the fansubs out there. If we are truly seeing both sides as equals, you should be able to put the legal argument (especially that of the US, and not other countries) on the backburner and tell me why I should not be able to access this information. 71.181.66.172 18:37, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

Has anyone else proposed just adding an section explaining how bad fansubs are and how they hurt Funimation and other sites? We can keep the names of the fansubbers as examples (remove the links, they aren't really necessary, and a lot of people seem to have problems with them), but show that piracy is hurting companies, like Ninjasheik has been pointing out this entire forum. This way, it is more of a fact article, like a "people do this, it happens, but we don't have an opinion either way". Bias is bad. Sorry if I repeated anything, I only read about 2/3 of the forum and I'm not too knowledgeable on this, considering I hate watching the anime. 19:45, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

@Pacifista15: I think some has proposed it, but I'm not sure. The forum really got out of hand, so I'm not exactly sure. Oh, that's right! Pacifista15, you're one of the oldest users that's been on the wiki, correct? I see you around a lot, but I never went to profile or check your history (that seems bit stalker-ish to me). I hope you can also take your vote back. I think you did vote, but took it out because you did have enough information about it, which I totally understand. Anyway, I hope you change your mind.

@Anonymous User 71.181.66.172: I really wish you give me a username. Calling you by an IP address seems really rude to me. Anyway, within rights, the wiki can choose whether or not to delete or rewrite an article. It decides on the outcome of the majority of the users because the wiki is a community where people edit and users can only edit after 3 months. We're not oppressing any new information. After all, this sort of information can be found on the web. Not Wikipedia, of course, because it also does not list fansub groups in order to keep things neutral and proper. The reasons for you wanting this page is different from what the wiki's users want. They feel that the fansubbers have a "part of the series' history. You want it there to keep information to satisfy your needs to look up fansubs, which is not what the wiki is aiming for.-- Ninja Sheik  21:58, October 5, 2012 (UTC)

Piracy does not effect the companies like you are claiming. Knock it off with that crap. You're spreading false information and if people read your comments they could be mislead. Also that's not true at all. Most fansubbers top subbing if they get a C&D from the companies. Only some fansubbers continue to sub even after getting a C&D. You already revealed yourself to be selfish when you reported those fansubber groups. Piracy is very minor because you KEEP ON IGNORING the fact that most people who pirate something would not have bought the product in the first place. The only way a pirate could effect their business is if the person who pirated the product had intended on buying it but decided to pirate instead. The people who cannot buy the products, like 71.181.66.172, are not a lost sale either.

The fact of the matter is you said he doesn't know any better because he is a "kid." This implies that only "kids" don't care if it effects the companies. There are many adults who think the exact same way. Just saying a number is not giving out personal information. I think you're just not saying it because he's actually older than you or only 1-2 years younger. The reason they don't mention it is because Wikipedia needs third party sources for everything. Wikipedia is wrong because anybody can edit it. Piracy is not the downfall of any company. If you go by that logic of wanting to read/watch something that is unlicensed then you should only read unlicensed material and stop  when it is licensed. You're still hypocrital to read the manga illegally and claim that you "need" to read it then say anything at all against piracy. You aren't following any rules. The companies are the ones who should report these sites. You are just being ignorant and ignoring people who do not live in America or Canada. Pacifista15 I can tell you are not knowledgable about this because fansubbers do not hurt these companies like NinjaSheik has been saying. LostandOld (talk) 07:42, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

All because you think it's false does it is false. Do you know how many companies, voice actors/actresses, and other businesses stated clearly that piracy causes them to lose profit? Isn't that the reason why Congress tried to pass SOPA? Oh, here's a nice little source for information: On October 1, 2012, Japan passed a new law that penalizes people who illegally download copyrighted material. In other words, piracy. You can deny the evidence all you want, but that's not going to change a thing. Sprout lies and insult me all you want, but when it comes right down to it, people will decide what's right and wrong by their own free will. We can go on and on, insulting each other and counter each other's argument, but honestly, what's the point? You think You claimed I'm sprouting lies and that I am selfish, but what about you? Aren't the fansubbers being selfish for not heeding companies' request to take down their stolen property? I've seen on user on YouTube that upload illegal clips of the episodes over and over again, and her account always get deleted. But she always keep coming back. An anime site that I used to use was approached by FUNimation to take down their property, but that site merely re-uploded them afterwards.

And no, my brother is actually younger than me. Even if he is older than me, he's still be a kid because of the way he acts. How about you stop obsessing over him? It's creepy, and I cannot give out personal information about another person without their expressed permission. It'd very rude, and my brother doesn't even like One Piece or gives a crap about the wikis. I told you, even he vandalizes them. He even told me that he did. Wikipedia is a neutral source, and an official company rightfully own by Google and would therefore prevent anyone from adding false information onto the articles, much like this wiki does. Or any wiki for that matters.

Sure, if I am being "hypocritical", then you should call everyone else on this wiki hypocritical, too, just to be fair. They openly admit that they also use fansubs and read manga online, too, even when they stated they do not support piracy. I want to read manga legally, I even did when my school was still subscribed to SJA, but due to school issues, then canceled it. I only depend on it because my mother does not want me get to SJA and not read the rest of the manga on there and merely two (and don't forget that One Piece and Naruto do take breaks). She sees that as a waste, and I understand that. So, yeah, I am forced to read manga online, although I always read the volumes for One Piece when they come out to repent. :)

I never said that piracy was the ONLY downfall of companies, I am saying that it is one of the main ones. Again, deny the evidence all you want, but it's the truth. And you're ignoring the fact just that even though lots of people depend on piracy, piracy is illegal will be taken down. After all, I'm just a fan. I can't do anything about it, the only thing I can do is support the series as much as I can. Just because you don't care as long as you get them, I'm pretty sure you don't care those in American and Canada that are fighting against it. And trust me, there are lots. However, they will be people that will also side with you.

Again, we can go back and forth, but it's not going to change anything. With what you think or what I think. Everyone decides what to they believe in without interference, and I REFUSE to disregard the actual cause of this forum and argue about this further. Pacifista15, as well as everyone else, will decide with their free will on what to believe. This discussion is done. What we're arguing about isn't even about the page anymore, but our sides of what we think piracy is. This was got out of hand, and starting now, I will no longer reply on this forum no matter what you saay. So, go ahead, sprout lies, insults, and deny the proof, but when it comes down to it, it will be the people who will decide what to believe in without our interference. They have to make their choices and look at this and that with their own ears and eyes. And this discussion, this fight, is not worth fighting because this one of the most common debates on the Internet and one thing I learned from reading these sort of discussions on forums and on YouTube is that the only thing it will cause is more strife and anger. A fight like is not worth continuing, so I'm going to stand down.-- Ninja Sheik  18:53, October 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * Again, I have to ask all three of you, LostandOld, AWC, and NinjaSheik, to refrain from insulting each other, and being too harsh. You three are taking this too far. Thank you. 18:59, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. If any of you guys continue to make the argument personal and bitter, and generally insulting, some bans may be in order. 19:29, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * You can only show respect to those who also gives it, as the old saying goes. Anyway, don't worry about it. On Oct. 13, be getting into fights with everyone will no longer happen. Promise.-- Ninja Sheik  19:47, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

Really? I just love how you keep ignoring the lost sale argument, But please just stop, you're making your argument for this seem weak. You seemed to have missed the point as the focus was not your brother, its about how you think that only kids pirate and don't care for the consequences of pirating. Not everyone is a "kid" in those regards, that will take information and choose to run with it in a negative way. The point of the wiki is to provide information in all its forms, to exclude some information is just like altering it.

"I'm pretty sure you don't care those in American and Canada that are fighting against it. And trust me, there are lots."- Compared to how many pirate from America and Canada, the people from America and Canada who are against fansubs/scanlations are definitely outnumbered.

"So, go ahead, sprout lies, insults, and deny the proof,"- I enjoy your irony immensely.

Now to address the other issue. I did not insult anybody. Did I call somebody stupid? Did I swear at anybody? That was a ridiculous accusation. LostandOld (talk) 04:41, October 8, 2012 (UTC)

Wait wait, how was there any real flaming or insulting here? Because like he has stated I don't see LostandOld doing anything overtly over the top. --Imagine every molecule in your entire body spontaneously exploding at the speed of light (talk) 23:33, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

Poll
The poll is currently closed. The voting closed at 20:00 October 13, 2012 (UTC). You must have been on here for at least three months and have at least 300 edits to vote on this poll.

This poll deals with a discussion regarding the page Fansub and whether or not the names of various fansubbers should be displayed in the page. This forum was moved from Talk:Fansub in order to make the poll.

How should the names of Fansubbers be dealt with?


 * Any mention of their names should be removed, and the page would become a description of what Fansubbing is.
 * 1) -- Ninja Sheik  20:16, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * 21:44, September 29, 2012 (UTC) Promoting fansubs is wrong, in the eyes of laws. It may not hurt our morals, but it does hurt FUNimation and Toei.
 * 23:15, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * 23:15, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) User:X-RAPTOR 20:59, October 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * 01:15, October 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1)   03:41, October 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * 01:15, October 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1)   03:41, October 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * The names should stay, however the links to all fansubbers should be removed.
 * 1)  19:45, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2) Galaxy9000 (talk) 19:59, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * 3)  20:02, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * 4)  21:13, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * 22:59, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * 00:22, September 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * 08:44, October 3, 2012 (UTC) I support fansubbers and think that, we should give info about them because people outside US and Canada use the fansubs
 * 04:23, October 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) GekkoMoria (talk) 21:07, October 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * 03:48, October 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * 05:41, October 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1)   01:54, October 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2) --Imagine every molecule in your entire body spontaneously exploding at the speed of light (talk) 00:46, October 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) --Imagine every molecule in your entire body spontaneously exploding at the speed of light (talk) 00:46, October 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * There is no issue on having both the names and the links.

'''The poll is closed. The names of the fansubbers will remain, while the links will be removed.'''

Overhaul
Now that the poll is over, I have spent a bit of time overhauling the current Fansub page here. I added a few references about Japanese policy towards Fansubs and deleted the majority of the links. I tried to make it as neutral a possible, but it needs to be updated as far as the example fansubbers go. 20:05, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

It looks alright to me, although I would explain that Funimation's site is legal and add an external link to that. 20:15, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Tomorrow I'm replacing the content of the current fansub page with the content from my draft. Anyone who objects speak up now to avoid the edit war. 04:39, October 17, 2012 (UTC)