Talk:Z

Rank
Where does it say Z was an Admiral?99.192.69.191 12:46, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

7月11日放送のめざましテレビで、アニメONE PIECEの映画最新作 『ONE PIECE　FILM Z(ワンピース フィルム ゼット)』の 映像が初公開された！ ルフィたちの今回の敵である 元海軍大将 Zも 今まで後ろ姿しか公開されていなかったが、 この映像で初公開となった！ (Source)


 * The kanji in bold mean 'former Marine admiral'. Zodiaque (talk) 14:56, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh thanks99.192.64.26 13:16, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

Infobox image
I don't know much about images on this site, but why is the infobox image so squished? It's fine when you click on it... JustSomeDude... 21:44, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

And now? Is it squished? 21:49, July 22, 2012 (UTC)

Looks fine now. JustSomeDude... 00:53, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

Real Name and Type of Haki Used
According to the latest trailer, it is shown that Z is a Bososhoku Haki user.

According to the latest scans, where a part of it was translated by Aohige and sandman (the member who watched the premiere of Film Z) of Arlong Park Forums, Z's real name is ゼファー, or Zephyr/Zephr, but according to Aohige, Zephyr is used more commonly.

I'll be adding the new information to the page and in the edit description, I will ask people to read the talkpage.- Racht 20:35, December 11, 2012 (UTC)

Deceased?
At the risk of spoiler alert, deceased? 01:20, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

The movie is out. Isn't this type of information fair game? 01:20, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

Really? Haven't seen it... it's just theater-released, when's DVD? Once again, at the risk of a spoiler, can someone give me a briefing on how he died? 01:26, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

Movie just came out today in Japan. No dvd or subs for awhile.

Kizaru shoots him with Yasakani no Magatama multiple times and it kills him. 01:33, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

So is he dead or no? Someone just removed the deceased next to his age, but he's still categorized dead. 02:22, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Yes. He's dead. Someone removed it for no reason I guess. 10:33, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

Canonicity of Zephyr
I would like to argue that Zephyr is indeed a canon character. For the record, I am not arguing Film Z's canonicity.

1. In depicted all the Marines we have seen in the manga so far, and then some. All the Marines in the image appear to be their younger counterparts. If you look closer, you will see Ain and Bins, characters who appear in Film Z. '''Why would Oda add these two in a collage of canon Marines? Why not Oda draw them alongside Z in their Neo Marine attire?''' This leads me to believe that Ain and Bins are canon, and by extension, Zephyr himself.

2. Like Volume 0 was released to moviegoers of One Piece Film Strong World, so was Volume Z released to moviegoers of Film Z. Unfortunately, Volume Z does not contain a special chapter like Volume 0 did. However, the book does contain a timeline of information and sketches called Chronicle of Z. In this timeline, there are sketches of Zephyr throughout his life, from when he was a young boy to when he was a Marine Admiral and more. Along with sketches there is information of what he did at a particular age. The book not only contains information on Zephyr, but on other Marines as well. Canon Marines such as Kuzan, Borsalino, and Sakazuki. For example the book shares information on how old each of these future Admirals were when they joined the Marines. There are also sketches of them at those particular ages. You can also find sketches of Sengoku, Garp, and Tsuru when they were young Marines. Heck, we even find out that the pirate who cut off Zephyr's arm becomes a Shichibukai during the timeskip of the manga! (Doubtful it is Trafalagar Law because he would have been too young; most likely it is a brand new character we will be seeing in the future :O) All this information and sketches are laced inside this timeline of Zephyr's life because these various characters were affected by Zephyr. From what we can tell, Chronicle of Z IS the "special chapter" without the dialogue and action. This also leads me to believe Zephyr is canon.

2.5. There was some color pamphlet that was given out as well depicting colored images of Zephyr throughout his life.

Basically, Oda drew and provided information in the cover spread of Chapter 691 and Volume Z. With these two major points, I have no doubt in my mind that Zephyr is canon. -  Racht 02:13, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

Seems legit to me. 02:20, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. The character of Z is definitely canon, along with Ain and Bins. 02:21, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

Then can I remove all the "non-canon" stuff? 05:33, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

Yep. 05:34, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not really convinced by that... if we agree that film 12 is non-canon then I think all the neo-marines should be non-canon as well, otherwise the Neo Marines should exist in the manga One Piece World too, but all Neo Marines story is developed in the film, which cannot be placed in the manga storyline. You can say that the Neo Marines exist in the manga One Piece world but never appeared, but that's a bit contradictory because the Neo Marines were crushed (I think, didn't see the movie yet :P) by the straw hats. I don't doubt any information on any canon characters, and if you are wondering why Oda did provide so much canon informations in a filler movie that's simply a promotional campaign and also to bond the movie characters with the canon characters, but all filler arcs are like that! And about chapter 691, there is a good reason why Oda depicted Z, Ain and Bins: advertisement. Plus are you all forgetting the fact that ALL movie characters were drawn by Oda?

Levi: Just like with Shiki, Oda provided a lot of information about Z in Volume Z. While the events of Strong World are not canon, and while the events of Z probably aren't canon, the characters within them are. 15:26, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

Last time I checked the events of strong world were canon, where do we decided they weren't? And again... providing information means nothing... he supervises the film, of course he provides informations but if the movie itself cannot be placed in the manga storyline it's still filler, the only difference is that's wasn't (at least not totally) made up by the anime staff. In strong world case, the events of the movie could be placed in the storyline, and the manga itself had references to Shiki, while it's not the case for this movie and Z. I know that here we are talking about Z and not the movie itslef, but isn't that a contradiction? I mean, how can you consider canon a character but not canon all his history? It's either both or none of them.


 * For example, Chameleone is a character totally made up by Oda, but he still isn't canon since he is not placed in the manga storyline.

The events of strong world being canon were voted in by 5 people, but recently it's been challenged by many. Strong World cannot fit into the storyline, due to the plot holes of Zoro's injury and Brook's first fight with the SHs being against Duval.

As for the Z case, the manga does have references to the Z characters, as shown in the 691 color spread, but if that's not enough for you, a whole volume was dedicated to the characters, so that should be sufficient enough. 16:00, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

As for Chameleone, it's still possible he could be placed in the manga storyline, but if not, he was just like Gasparde or any of the other characters Oda just designed. 16:01, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

Then why Z cannot be as any other characters Oda just designed? Chapter 691 colour spread is pure commercial... it's clearly written "One Piece Film: Z", and with this I'm not saying that the "informations" (appearance of the characters) on it are not to be taken as canon, simply that Z, Ain and Bins are not part of the manga storyline because of that. Volume 1000 it's just another commercial volume, not a databook. Yes it may have other canon informations about other characters, but is still is purely about the past of the neo marines isn't it? I think you guys are being mislead by the big advertisement campaign of this movie. Whichever something is canon or not, is decided if it's placed in the manga storyline or not, why is it such a big deal if Z isn't canon? As I said before it's a contradiction to have a canon character which all his history isn't canon...

About Chameleone, actually he proves my point: not matter how much Oda "provide informations" (he himself made him up entirely) if he doesn't put him in the manga storyline, it remains non-canon.

About strong world, I see now the potholes, but it was Oda who wanted Strong World to be part of the manga "One Piece Film 「STRONG　WORLD」 Eichiro Oda Artbook "And as far as something that will hold true for both the comic and the anime, this will be Luffy's last adventure as a 17 year-old."" (I believe this was the reason why strong world is canon).

I just see it as easier to use the same logic as we did with Shiki and his pals. They're canon due to getting that Chapter and the volume. Sure, Shiki himself was in the manga, but not his crew.

Z's history is canon too due to the fact Oda provided the information about his background.

I'm pretty sure I saw that this movie takes place before PH, but has that been confirmed? If not, I'm actually ok with the movie itself being canon.

And about the strong world thing, Oda saying it was his "last adventure" is due to the fact that the movie released right before the post-war arc. There were no adventures after Marineford, so it makes sense that he would say it like that. 18:26, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

Shiki was intended to be mentioned in the conversation between Shanks and Whitebeard and Chapter 0 place him in the manga storyline. Z is the same case has Chameleone, he has a background but he wasn't placed in the manga storyline hence is not canon, the special volume is just an omake. And again, Z's history is still not canon since the movie is not-canon as well, hence it's a big contradiction in my opinion. I think that two of them are not alike.

An omake? What. No it isn't. It really doesn't matter what Shiki was intended for, what matters is what actually happened. 18:42, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

Why not? Anyway what it matter is what Oda says. But it seems we cannot convince each other, anyway why nobody else is saying anything?

Probably because it is pretty much straightforward, I would say. Chameleone was a character created for the One Piece Premier Show 2012, a live-action show. It is hard to compare a character with one or two lines of history to a character whose life is mapped out in what can be considered a"special chapter" without the dialogue and action. There isn't much else to say beyond the points that I brought up at the beginning of this section and what Galaxy9000 has to say. - Racht  19:09, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

If we consider Zephyr to be canon because of the Chronicle and sketches, then it seems we're bound to consider the movie canon as well: http://www.imagebam.com/image/772ff9226004007. I'm really not sure about all that. I'd say, if it's not in the manga/cover story/SBS/databooks, it's not canon.

I don't see the problem just because it also shows movie spoilers. Zephyr was defeated by Luffy like Shiki was defeated by Luffy. Should not make Zephyr less canon than Shiki. - Racht  19:38, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

Sff: Volume Z is the equivalent of the Volume 0. If we consider the volume 0 information canon, because it is technically part of the manga, then the same can be said for the Z volume. -- 19:46, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand that picture, what are you trying to say sff9? But I agree with you. The movie cannot be placed in the manga story so making it canon it would be really hard, and my point is that if we don't consider canon the movie then we get a character whose past is canon but all the present history is not, how can it be possible? I mean in the "canon" story Z resigned and created the Neo Marines, but he was never defeated by Rufy (I suppose it is in the movie) hence he should be still around, which is weird... it's like having an alternate storyline.

@Racht: the point is that Z's defeat cannot be canon, since the straw hats went straight to PH and there was not timeframe for the movie to happen, hence Z's defeat too. Strong World can fit in the manga storyline, but it seems that it also been considerate non-canon, while I think that's not the case (the plotholes mentioned are really minor plotholes, there were similar mistakes in the manga too) I rather consider both Shiki and Z not canon at this point, because I just cannot see Z as a canon character. I think the major problem is the confusion the mass advertisements made (because both the volume and chapter 691 cover are just commercial strategies to advertise the movie) and I fear it will be like this the next movies too. At this point you we should just see what other has to say, and trying to make a decision, maybe waiting to know more about the movie storyline won't hurt too.

Gal: well yeah, but what matters in my opinion is Chapter 0, not Volume 0. Volume 0 is not a regular volume. On the contrary, Chapter 0 was released in the Jump and in a databook. Levi: the picture illustrates Zephyr being beaten by Luffy (I think). Anyway, it is stated explicitly, so if the Chronicle is canon, the movie also is.

It's a tie-in that's also a parallel, so both would have to be considered canon. Otherwise it would just be inconsistent and it would look like we were only calling select scenes canon instead of the entire movie. 20:16, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

Some of the information written in Chronicle of Z is found in Film Z, such as the fact that Zephyr's family was killed. Just because we see his defeat in the sketches shouldn't mean Zephyr is not canon. Again, his history is entwined with the Marines such as Sakazuki and Kuzan. They were taught by Zephyr. Making Zephyr not canon just because we see a sketch of Z being defeated would mean the ages and sketches of canon Marines in the book not canon. - Racht  20:45, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

Racht, did you understand what is the problem? Nobody said that Z is not canon because of the sketches, Sff9 just pointed out that you cannot take Z's background history as canon and not the movie's one, it's either both or none of them. So if we take both of them as canon, then there is the big problem of where/when the movie story could have taken place. Saying it's taking place after PH sounds like an excuse to me, since then where we place all of the movie "prequel" stories? (anime and Glorious Island). This is why I said we should simply consider all of it not canon. What's wrong in Oda making up a not canon character? All filler characters has somewhat been entwined with other canon characters, and Oda simply did the same with this movie.

Okay, I won't talk about the sketches then. Shiki's backstory is canon, but we don't deem the movie as canon. I don't see why Zephyr isn't given the same treatment. - Racht  21:42, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

There is a bit of confusion about that too and it was a recent change. In fact I believe strong world to be canon.

"One year ago, the same pirate who cut off Zephyr's arm became a Shichibukai." That sentence is matching canon material (not saying it is him, but I second-hand guess Law, who would be 17 at the time of cutting Zephyr's arm, and 25 when becoming a Shichibukai). 02:05, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

It cannot be Law anymore. Apparently this Shichibukai was also a prisoner in Level 6 of Impel Down. So it is somebody completely new. 04:21, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

Oh. But that stands to make it canon, right? 06:54, December 19, 2012 (UTC)

People don't understand that Strong World & Z weren't written when they took place. Strong World can't fit because it was written during marineford. Z was written during Punk Hazard. What do you expect Oda to do? Just stop the manga after Fishman Island until the film is released, and try to wok the manga around the film?

I don't buy into the doesn't fit in the timeline, there are continuity problems excuses people make. Also, if the character is canon the movie is too.

Now, Shiki is canon because he as mentioned in the manga. As for Z, although he was never mentioned in the manga, with the release of "Volume 1000" containing the Chronicles of Z, the chapter 691 colourspread he is more likely to be canon.DuelMaster93 (talk) 11:19, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

I believe we shouldn't consider Zephyr canon because:
 * The colorspreads are not part of the story, chapter 691 was obviously a promotional page (there is written "One Piece film: Z") and though we can use the cover as reference for past appearances, we cannot use it to say "he is canon". For examplw: chapter 651 was promoting Toshio Asakuma figurines and on chapter 405 there is Chopperman, does this means Chopperman is a canon character? No.
 * The fact that he has "relationships" with other canon characters, means nothing. That's what every filler character has... when you create a filler character you place him in the canon story, and this is what Oda did too. You are mislead by the fact that Zephyr is an important character, since he was an admiral. Is Panz Fry canon because he was friend with Dori and Brogi since he was little? Is Shuzo canon because he knows Momonga? No.
 * Volume 1000 is not a databook, is a volume especially made as bonus material for the movie. The "chronicle of Z" are sketches about his past history, how's that different form the character's background, say, on the movie' site? It's not a manga chapter like it can be chapter 0 (we can also not consider ch.0 part of the manga, that's not the point, but it's evident what the difference between this and volume 1000 is).
 * The only reason why we cannot (yet) say he is canon, which should be enough, is that there is no reference of Zephyr in the manga history, nor the movie can be place in the manga's plot. No matter how much informations we have on Zephyr, they all come from the movie and related products. If we say he is canon for that reason, it's an auto-reference, like saying "he is canon because the movie says so".

About Oda's involvement:
 * He's not the only non canon character made up by Oda: Chameleone should be a clear example. If we consider him non canon I don't see why the reason "he was written by Oda" matters here. Moreover Oda draw sketches and concept arts of every movie's villains. With Ganzack he filled up a canon volume with his concept art...
 * With Strong World many people refused the argument "written by Oda =/= canon", this is the same case. Basically it's "Canon => written by Oda" but not "Canon <=> written by Oda".
 * Is it that strange that Oda participated in a movie which cannot it be considered canon? Why cannot he make a non-canon story? After strong world the anime creators realized that making a movie with Oda is much better... the fact Z beat "The Hobbit" in Japan isn't a clear evidence of this? You can bet that the next movies are gonna be like this.

When Zephyr should be considered canon:
 * Zephyr should be consider canon when we will have a reference in the manga itself and when the movie plot can fit in the manga plot (Galaxy says it's not important the latter, I think it's a bit contradictory, but whatever...). When we will have this, I will be more the happy to consider him as a canon character.

It is true that Oda designed many non-canon characters, but Zephyr was the only one he had ever gave a timeline & significant amount of detailed information. Did Oda give Chameleone or Ganzack any detailed history? No. Not only that volume 1000 also provides information on canon marines such as canon Marines such as Kuzan, Borsalino, and Sakazuki. Do you think Oda would really write all this information on canon characters, if it weren't true? I know it's not an actual volume or databook, nether the less volume 1000 was all from Oda. And yes, know Chopper Man is just from an Omake, which are just made for fun that shouldn't be taken seriously, but has Oda ever gave any information on him? That was in a form of a four-panel comic strip, not written down as information. There is a difference between Zephyr and the other non-canon characters he designed. Oda gave him his history, his relationships and pretty much every significant detail of his life and who he is. Everyone else didn't.

Yes, there are no references to Zephyr or the Neo Marines in the manga, but we can't disregard information given by Oda related to canon characters. The movie only came out this weekend, so give it some time and we will see what happens. I'm not saying he is or isn't canon. It is too early to make that judgement. I'm just saying it is more likely that he is canon.--DuelMaster93 (talk) 14:43, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

Why are so fixed with the amount of informations? Of course he did give us informations, that's his background history! He written a character and he placed him in One Piece world history, I'm not questioning any "canon" character mentioned or other events, for example that one of the new shichibukai was an Impel Down prisoner, but as long there is no reference to Zephyr in the manga itself, then he is not canon. For example if the new shichibukai will mention Zephyr, then that's our confirmation we are looking for, but otherwise just no. As I said all those informations are auto-references, you didn't give any real motive to accept them aside "being a lot". Cannot you see that Oda is just doing what the anime team is doing for every character? He place him in the history, but since Oda knows well how the history goes and he is an important character why is not allowed to give a nice rich background history without making him automatically canon? And as a matter of fact, Chameleone has and history which is pretty lame here on the wiki, but if you read it's quite a rich plot.

If you are not convinced, think about this: if Oda gives indeed to an obviously non canon character, like Jonathan (which cannot be place in the manga history), a full history background will that make him canon? No. This doesn't prove that Zephyr is not canon, but simply that a full background history is not sufficient to be considered canon. I think you are not discerning the canon elements from the non-canon ones.


 * "And yes, know Chopper Man is just from an Omake, which are just made for fun that shouldn't be taken seriously, but has Oda ever gave any information on him? That was in a form of a four-panel comic strip, not written down as information." - wait, are you saying tha if Oda would make, let's say, an entire special volume about Chooper-man and the other character would make them automatically canon? That would make them just spin-off! With canon we still intend everything about Oda's product, the manga One Piece. So in that case, it would still be the same as this case: unless the crew found their alter-egos in the manga alongside chopper-man, he would still be an omake character. Otherwise we should consider to add as canon character Goku. I think there is a misunderstanding of what canon means.

I think you're missing the point. Oda didn't give Chameleone his history, and beides Zephyr's is far more detailed. Not only is Zephyr the only character Oda has given his design, his past & his relationships, Hies past ties in with other canon characters like Kuzan, Borsalino, and Sakazuki. Should we just ignore all the information in volume 1000, including all the information written about Kuzan and his leg, even though it has no relation to Zephyr whatsoever? No. All the information in volume 1000 is by Oda. Unless the contents in volume 1000 is in the form of a omake, crossover or one-shot chapter (which it isn't) everything in volume 1000 is canon. Everything in Volume 1000 is from Oda, everything else is from toei which was checked off by Oda.

If he were to be mentioned in the manga it would prove 100% that he is canon, but then again there is no good reason why he should be mentioned in the manga. For example there are some canon events that were mentioned again. If Shiki never escaped impel down he wouldn't of been mentioned again also. Zephyr hasn't really done anything that significant that he would be mentioned again.

What im saying is an omake shouldn't be taken seriously. If a character were to appear in an omake or crossover they are not canon. And with Jonathan, Oda did not create him. One Piece Film Z was obvious written during the Punk Hazard arc, that's why there are continuity problems. The reason why it can't fit in the timeline is because when the fishman island arc finished there was still a long time until Z would be released, and the manga had to move on, therefore punk hazard took place straight away.

And yes, canon means it happened in the original story. Like i said earlier, it is too early to say if he is or isn't canon. So far all evidence suggest that he is more likely to be canon.--DuelMaster93 (talk) 23:27, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, first thing first, Shiki and Strong World are confirmed canon, as Sengoku mentioned his existence when he berated Garp for Luffy's break in of Impel Down; Volume 0 later adds to that confirmation, along with one of the SBS, and furthermore, Strong World is written during Marineford, but the story itself was placed perfectly in between Thriller Bark and Sabaody Archipelago, so it's definitely canon. Although Zephyr was not mentioned in-manga yet, he at least share the same treatment as Shiki for having a volume dedicated to him (Volume 1000), being designed in detail by Oda himself, a sub-arc devoted as a prequel, both movies being named "Film", and Zephyr himself being connected to canon-material (having made contact with canon marines, Kuzan chasing the Straw Hats during the course of the movie, etc.). When the 12th film takes place in the storyline, we don't know yet, but it was said when the Straw Hats enter the New World, so it could be anytime after Fishman Island, or after Punk Hazard, as it was not yet specific (unless one of you guys saw the movie already, in which case PLEASE share your insight with us). Therefore saying it is filler is not right. Unless confirmed otherwise, it should remain canon. 07:20, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

In the case of Strong World, there are plotholes that make it not "perfectly" fit into the timespan between TB and Sabaody. Oda never said Strong World or Film Z was canon, so we cannot speculate for ourselves and say that it is canon. 08:56, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

It is more likely that both Strong World & Z are canon. Strong World: People forget that strong world was written during marineford. Therefore no matter where we put strong world there will be plot holes, because of when it was written. The fact that Shiki is canon, means strong world is canon, because i prefer to believe that strong world did happen, rather than thinking Shiki is still out there twiddling his thumbs. Z: First of all, we can say that Zephyr is canon because he has the same treatment as a canon character. He has volume 1000. Not only was he designed by Oda, but his entire life was written by Oda, and his past also ties in with many canon marines. The movie takes place before Punk Hazard after they reach the new world. This was written during Punk Hazard, so it can't fit in the timeline. But the only significant continuity problem is that Punk Hazard took place straight away. I can't see why it can't fit after chapter 654

I don't buy into continuity problems and not fitting in the timeline because the fact of the matter is they were written way after they actually happen, therefore they will never fit in the timeline. But they should still be canon because Shiki & Zephyr are canon.--DuelMaster93 (talk) 09:44, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

@DuleMaster: "I think you're missing the point. Oda didn't give Chameleone his history, and besides Zephyr's is far more detailed. " - I think you don't read what I write... you didn't say why I was wrong and you just repeated what you already said. So I'll say it again too: Chameleone HAS an history, you are mislead by the fact that its article is a stub. And again, it doesn't matter how much Zephyr history detailed it is... that's not a confirmation by itself, what are you saying that if he had less history then he wouldn't have been canon? It's not a matter of quantity... there are canon characters with no history at all... Taking Shiki as an example (and leaving aside Strong World for the moment), the reason why he is canon that really matters is that he was mentioned by Sengoku in the manga, the other reasons are just secondary, he is not canon because he have designs or reletionship with. Zephyr lacks this, until we will have a similar case, we should treat him as non-canon character and WAIT. WAIT until Garp says "back in my times" or the new shichibukai says "when I cut off that jerk's arm" or something like that. I don't think it's so weird to accept that Oda collaborated in a movie, made up some characters, give them a history (because you know, every filler character has an history or relationship with canon characters) but didn't insert them in his manga, or are you saying that every thing Oda makes must be inserted in the manga? This discussion is like saying Dragonball GT is canon because Toriyama collaborated to the production and the characters design. Beside if some of you don't consider strong world canon, I don't see why it's so hard to accept this.