Forum:Chat bot

I'd like to propose the use of a chat bot on this wiki. What this bot does is keeping a log of the chat conversations, obviously only the public ones, like this. The reason I feel like it would be useful here is because the chat is always active and a chat log would be useful to address wiki-related discussions as well the ones gone out of control. Many times I've seen people saying "we discussed that in chat" or "you said that in chat"... at the moment there is no way to back up those statement aside from asking the users who were actually in the chat in those particular moments, even screenshots are questionable because they can be easily counterfeited.

The chat would still be a "separate zone" from the wiki, but at least with a log everybody can say their opinion when needed about what happens in chat, be it troubles or wiki-related discussions. To request the set up of this bot, we have to contact this user after we reach a community decision.

Discussion
I don't see it as completely necessary. It seems like a nice idea for remembering conversations, but I think there could be some unintended issues that could turn up as a result. For me, I feel like there's a bit of a privacy issue with logging the chat. I know this wiki has a few users who like to idle just to read everything that was said in the chat later so that they can get all the gossip or make sure people aren't saying bad things about them. (In fact the random log I went to on Bleach wiki featured a conversation just like this about a trouble-causing editor) The chat log, while eliminating the need for them to idle, also enables them to read every word that is said outside of PM. I'm not really comfortable with this. If there's a problem in the chat, or a user wants to remember a conversation, they should just take a screenshot of it. In the end, I feel more like this will be used as an invasion of the community's privacy rather than being used as a helpful reference tool. 15:30, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

I am completely against this, I can see how it may have it's uses sure but besides that it is very intrusive. I'm hoping others agree because I would never visit the chat again if this bot comes into affect. Oh and I don't want to feel like I live in the US. 15:41, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

I can sort of see the argument for having this, but honestly, if there's a problem, users are smart enough to screenshot as proof if needed. 15:45, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

All the regulars here usually share personal stuff on chat, not meant for the whole internet to see like picture of each other, or some things about themselves in real life or in general just say something that is meant to be left in the chat, amongst those specific users. Honestly levi, I haven't seen you in chat more than 5 times, it's obvious that you don't really give a fuck about what is discussed in there, but I, as a regular in there, do. Besides, 70% of the things we discuss there aren't relevant to the wiki or even One Piece at all. You guys really don't want to have the log of the chat (-_- ). That's all I have to say in this forum; If this goes into effect, I'm leaving this wiki. 16:03, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely not. The chat is carefree and it should remain like this. No one should have to be cautious about what to say, because it might be recorded and used against him/her in the future. If there are matters wiki-related that are resolved in chat, then that's too bad. The chat is for socializing and not for official article/forum discussions, we have forums and talk pages for that.

I'm sorry but how can there be a "privacy issue"? Everybody can read what you write in chat... maybe there was a misunderstanding, the private chats won't be logged. Only the main chat. I sometimes read in ban forums issue regarding chat behaviour (which technically doesn't matter for a wiki ban), with a log this issues can be easily addressed to (this can be helpful for chat moderators too). I'm beginning to fear that people who finds this an "intrusion to their privacy" (by a public chat...) just don't want to take responsability of what they say in chat.

@SHL then you are a bit naive imo... how can you think that the chat is a private space? If a random user log in, there it goes your privacy. Do not do that regardless there is a chat log or not. There are private chat rooms for that. I don't chat here and basically I am almost not an active editor anymore, but "I give fuck" about this wiki. Out of all the discussion I read here, many of them address chat issues, be them "decisions made in chat" or "issues with editors started in chat" and then escalated outside of it. So if the chat is that much a private space why do you all use for important wiki discussions? I think a chat log would keep everybody in line and like on the other wikis that have it, still let the users talk about anything they want without worries (I honestly do not understand the difference). "If this goes into effect, I'm leaving this wiki", very mature behaviour. If that's true than I suppose you don't care about the wiki but only about the chat. So much for community decisions...

The problem is when several users are discussing a topic in the main chat. Without the use of chat hacks, private messages cannot have discussions involving more than two users. If I'm having a late-night conversation with 2 other users about the happenings of the wiki, there is an implied privacy there because the chat is going to be nearly empty, and the odds that another active user will come in are low. Also, your point that anyone can still see what we post is a bit flawed. Yes, anyone may see what we post, but on two conditions: 1) That they have a registered account and 2) That they are actually in the chat at the time of the discussion. With a public chat log, anonymous users and users who are banned from the chat/wiki may still read everything. And we've had a few recent cases where a user has been banned from chat for being abusive/stalking another user, and making a public chat log is a real safety concern for those users. Also, if you have a problem trusting people when they say "___ happened in chat", you may always ask for corroboration from other users who were in the chat at that time. 16:39, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

Levi, you obviously don't get it. Sure, if it wasn't for the chat, I would be long gone from the wikia network, just like most other people. It's the chat that keeps most of the regulars still here, neither the stupid forums we make about random stuff, neither because they want to just kill their precious time editing the wiki without getting a reword, neither its average design. The chat bot would do nothing but make the wiki unfriendly and shorten its community. Don't bring bleach wiki as an example because whenever I visit there, I don't see more than 2 people in the chat list so they obviously wouldn't care about it. This thing will just force 20 active people to leave and keep in touch with each other using other chats like skype or maybe even other wiki chat that don't do silly things like this. I could link you enough screenshots to fill the forum with random stuff we say in chat that have totally nothing to do with the wiki and would only make us feel embarrassed for ourselves. When I share something personal on chat, I do it when I don't mind the people online to know and they share something too as the conversation flows. And even if one, two or three people join while we're having this conversation, that is totally fine. 1 person seeing it once is different than the whole internet being accessible to it no matter when. Haha staw is childish, Staw is immature and shares his person info in chat. No. It's not just person info, it's like almost everything we say. Most of the times our every sentence has swearing words in them and we say so much random shit in there that we have reached the point to only talk about One Piece for an hour or less when the new chapter comes out. This forum only makes me want to rant on it but I'll try not to. This chat bot thing is seriously fucked up and if you guys want to have it, you have my farewell. Edit conflict also, I'll read JSD's comment after I post mine. 16:52, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

Well, I'm looking at 1 in favour and 5 against so far..... Let me say it plainly, Levi. We, the regular users in chat, do not want this. 16:55, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

Well you shouldn't worry since as the discussion is going now I highly doubt this will be implemented. But still I'd like to clarify some things:
 * First you should do not ever share personal informations, seriously, it's not recommended. Simply because even if you know another editor for many time, you still don't know who is behind that username. On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog. You should not treat the chat or the wiki as a private safe place to share personal thoughts or informations that otherwise you wouldn't do in "public". This is why I do not understand at all your "privacy concerns", because I would write the same things in chat regardless there was a log or not. This is important.
 * I didn't really suggest the use of a chat log because "I don't trust a user when he says ____ happened in chat", but rather because I'm worry that happened in chat in the first place. And I'm not really worry about "decisions" made in chat, but more about user and behaviour issues. I think that some of the late issues between users began in chat and escalated outside of it or vice-versa. Can you really say that with a chat log everybody in those instances would have behave the same way? I think that since in chat someone can say whatever he wants, he doesn't feel responsible for what he says hence he more likely badly argues with others. And although we keep saying that chat is different thing than the wiki, the last ban forums people always complained and rant about chat-issues saying that "chat is different but you still shouldn't have done those things" while others responded "it's still different, period". Go on Forum:SeaTerror or Forum:Galaxy9000 and count how many times the chat is mentioned. Lately I have began to think that people start problems with others and then open forums or talk pages to drag the whole wiki in the matter and then eventually open ban forums which, as sff9 said, turns out to be popularity contests. Well at the beginning when the chat was first activated and I also used it, it was really a carefree area of the wiki. Even if I'm not part of it anymore, I feel that's not it anymore simply by reading how much do you guys take it seriously and what the consequences of that are. Keeping a log is a way to remind people to be responsible (not that can be "used against you", since the chat is still a different thing then the wiki, isn't it?) of what they say. It's the same reason why Google linked G+ to YouTube because it had enough of trolls running wild in the comments.
 * Also, you should watch your tone here. Because we are not in chat here and there is no need to swear or react like I said something outrageous. I just proposed something like anyone else. I'm just a bit of sad that this wiki has become so much chat-centered and that the users are apparently here not for the wiki itself anymore.

Well, judging from the reactions of the chat to this forum, we're still not interested. I'll get some more people to comment. 17:47, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with this idea whole-heartedly. Chat's becoming a more common means for discussions, so it would be good to have a log of these talks for reference and posterity. 17:52, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

I remain against it, but since DP is for it, I say at the very least it can only be viewed by admins (and maybe chat mods). 17:59, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

As much as I can see how a Chat Bot can be really beneficial to the wiki, privacy is the main issue here. There are some users in chat, such as myself, who are willing to share some private information in chat so long as they can trust the users who are currently there. However, when it comes to trusting the entire wiki, that is an entirely different issue.

Furthermore, there is also the issue of misinterpretations; such as an "insult" that was meant to be taken as a joke becoming something much bigger than a joke and causing a major argument that really should not have taken place.

If evidence is needed then the user should have enough common sense to take a screenshot. Without having to drag out what has already been said, I think it's a bad idea but having the log specifically admins and chat mods is a compromise. -- 18:03, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

As far as i know, you can't make something in wikia only accessible to be viewd for a specific user group (unless it's a special page like Special:ThemeDesigner or something). DP as a man who joins the chat every now and then, you would know that most things that we say in there shouldn't be viewed by the wiki as a whole. 18:09, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

I still believe it's a bad idea, but if it does happen, I'd support it if admins and chat mods were the only ones who could view the log. (In fact, I thought of this idea in chat, but ironically can't prove it because there's no chat log) My old statement regarding the problems with a public log did not get addressed. So here they are again:


 * We've had a few recent cases where a user has been banned from chat for being abusive/stalking another user, and making a public chat log is a real safety concern for those users."


 * Users who are banned or anonymous could still view a public log.

I'd appreciate it if those were addressed now. 18:10, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

Leviathon does have a point, because you shouldn't be sharing personal Information over the Internet you should know that, as you don't know what type of person Is really behind the screen, regardless of whether they are your so called friends or not, also i have noticed that chat is the place where alot of users talk about each other, but having chat logs Isn't such a great Idea as people such as anons can read messages and find out Information, but I don't see any need for having a chat log because normal chat is fine because users can express themselves with other users that they are familiar with or know on this wiki, Leviathion your side of the argument Is good but i can say that I'm not In favour of what you're proposing having that sort of chat Isn't really popular Mr Easter (talk) 18:15, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

It's still a no for me. Even if it is only admins, no offense, but I have hardly ever spoken with those dudes, I wouldn't want them monitoring my chat. Besides, creating a bot to monitor certain conversations in chat, will probably cause those very conversation to stop taking place. About the abuse and the bans, that's why we have entrusted people to become chat mods. That's why we insisted that at every time of the day there should be a mod online.

I'll investigate if the logs view can be restricted based on user groups. Anyway I think you are really misusing the chat if you are so concerned about personal informations shared in it. Do not do that or at least use private chats to share those informations. Seriously.
 * Yes I agree with vazelos Dance Powderer if i was to be honest I wouldn't really want you to monitor chat as you'd probably be very restrictive because of your role as an admin, we have chat mods so generally chat's fine but you could appoint a new chat mod (thats's not really friends with the regular chat users) so they could monitor chat fairly Mr Easter (talk) 18:31, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

Levi, you should actually join the chat and see for yourself what we mean. It's not just personal info, it's that, all the things we talk about... are not meant to be made public... 18:33, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

Nobody will "monitoring" anybody no much then he is already able to do now by simply joining the chat. I may understand why you may don't want anons to read the logs, but I seriously fail to see the problem with other editors. You should just think of it like a permanent passive chat moderator and since chat policy is different then wiki policies whatever you are permitted to say now you will still be with a log.


 * The problem is with other editors being able to view chat logs is (as I said before) misinterpretation. For those who aren't very active in chat, allow myself to explain. We (being active chatters) often make jokes that play on the stereotypes of a certain nationality; other users in chat understand this and take said jokes as a jokes. For someone who is completely alien to One Piece Wiki Chat, to then view said jokes this could lead to a series of unnecessary events that in retrospect are completely pointless. -- 18:54, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

I kinda see the importance of this that Levi is trying to show and it is indeed something useful in-case something inappropriate happened in chat and there need proof for that. Such as conflict of being kicked and banned. Many times members think they were not at fault and the MOD thinks they were .. but by using this botLog the member can take it to the admin and get proper explanation or get their ban removed .. while we do have snap shot an stuff but this is more professional .. I can edit a snapshot and make it looks like any thing I want but a chat log is what it really happened. While it is very useful .. it is kinda fish bone in meal- .. whatever the reference goes like >_> .. since chat is somewhere where many things go wrong, unethical and beyond inappropriate behavior .. having logs of them is .. not helping ( ,_,) so I'm not sure. '''I'm neither in support of this NOR against it. '''

Chat sounds like a scary place now... >_>


 * Oh, Levi, I promise you, it's a rather frightening place for users who aren't used to the wild ways of the chat. Also, the chat can be highly offensive at times, but regular chatters see them as jokes, whereas people who aren't used to the ways of the chat would get easily offensive at the high amount of sexual and racist and even more offensive jokes in the chat. Which is precisely why most chatters are not willingly to have a bot log every single thing in the main chat, since it can get rather embarrassing/uncomfortable for the regular chatters to know if someone is reading everything they say on the main chat, but have no idea about the context behind it (why users are comfortable with the offensive stuff going around). Just explaining why, I'll tell my opinion on this soon. 22:58, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

i like the idea of having a log of conversations, however i dislike the invasion of privacy a bit more so im against this-- 23:37, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

I've had a good think about it and I've actually changed my mind. I think it would be a good idea so long as only admins (maybe mods) can see it. 01:59, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

You know, admins are trusted users on the wiki, nobody is doubting that but erm, I have never seen 2 of those 4 in chat, ever. So it would still be kind of awkward, unless they actually start becoming active on chat... 07:35, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

I've had some experience with chat bots from my work on the Bleach Wiki and while I understand the potential benefits of having one... well, at the end of the day over at Bleach it ended up being completely unused for its intended purpose and has since been removed. Basically the logs ended up just being used to point out funny quotes from users or blatant gossip, rather than actually helping with issues between users. I'm not against having one - I'm just confident that it's not necessary. Enough of what goes on in chat is already screenshotted by a minimum of three people at all times so we're not exactly missing anything. 10:30, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

You can restrict the views to only some users with JS but others can still see it by disabling JS on browsers.Regrading the bot,I'm neutral:-I'll just get on chat and open a group PM with users i regularly chat with so the bot wouldn't affect me >_>--

Any word yet on if it's possible to completely restrict viewing of the logs to admins yet? If it's not possible, I think it's safe to close the discussion due to the clear majority against it. 17:55, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

There is the possibility to have the log off-wiki on a external server, if something comes up we ask Sactage (the one who runs the bot) to give us the log for the period of time we need. I don't know if it's possible to lock down a page on the wiki itself without js, still need to ask around.

I'd like to note that there is indeed an alternative to having public logs on-wiki; instead, the bot could log to a plain text file stored on the server where it is hosted. To access them, admins could either email me with some date/time range and I would give them all of the logs which happened throughout that period, or I could make the full log accessible via my web server, behind a password-based authentication system. Either way is easy for me to implement, and no one but admins would be able to access the logs in either case (and there would be a reliable log of who accessed the logs & when they did so). sactage  (talk)  20:03, February 12, 2014 (UTC)