Talk:Zoan

Name dispute
First of all, I'd like to say that I have absolutely no editing skills. Now, on to the point. I think the origin of "zoan" would be "zoon", and not zoanthropy. In Greek, "zoon" means "animal". (And "anthropos" means human), therefore, zoanthropy comes from "animal" + "human". You know, "zoo", as in zoological garden, or "protozoa", (those microorganisms, proto=first, zoa=animals)

I've never studied Greek, but I am studying medicine, so I may be wrong. {C It would be great if someone could confirm my theory. {C And lastly I don't know how to sign my posts, sorry in advance, if it doesn't work out.--201.252.15.237 18:27, 6 January 2009 (UTC) best22


 * Thanks in advance for this little tidbit of knowledge.


 * Anyway, the term Zoan in this case would come from Zoanthropy. Though you are correct in stating that Zoon is animal in Greek and everything else, the powers of this type of Devil Fruits lean more for its name coming from zoanthropy and not just simply zoon. Considering those that ate this type of Devil Fruit have the capability of transforming into animals and zoanthropy means the belief of transforming into animals in general, its kinda not hard to make the connection.


 * You are right in saying that Zoanthropy, Zoology, and everything else animal related have names coming from Zoon. However Zoan, for this case, comes from Zoanthropy. It also comes from Zoon indeed but it's not as simple as that.


 * It's not as simple as "since A=B and B=C therefore A=C".


 * It's kinda more complex like "A=B and B=C however A cannot be C unless defined by B".


 * In other words, the situation is "Zoan comes from Zoanthropy which comes from Zoon", instead of stating "Zoan comes from Zoon" straight away.


 * Anyway, thanks again for the input. Mugiwara Franky 08:56, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


 * We need to only list the direct links, please lets not going into the origins of the English language it gets long and boring and very confusing. One-Winged Hawk 14:18, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Alright, you guys are the pros here. I said already that I don't know much about editing. Just thought my idea was correct. Well, at least I tried to contribute something. --201.252.15.237 02:53, 9 January 2009 (UTC) best22

Clicking on "Hebi Hebi no Ni", directs you to its page, which immediately directs you back to Zoan. That's a bit dumb and should be fixed.

Demon Guards
It was revealed in the most recent chapter, Crocodile states the 4 Demon Guards are zoan users []. should we add the fruits to the list if someone can find out what the names are. the Minotoros should obviously be Ushi Ushi no Mi; Model: Cow/bull Minozebra, i think, should be Uma Uma no Mi; Model: Zebra and what koala and rino (unless we want to say rino is a cow model, like the giraffe) translate too someone can figure it out. or wait for them to say the fruits name in the manga --Kingluffy1 16:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * We need a confirmation, we know only so fart they are "awakened Zoans" and nothing or little on what it means. One-Winged Hawk 17:18, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Where does it say weakest?
How can they be considered the weakest and least impressive? I'd love to see you back this up.

Dan


 * Oh only the fact they've overall done the LEAST impressive things up until now. Heck, you don't visit forums if you have that opinion. I'm normally the one defending them there. Most people have the opinion Zoans = boring. And when you think about it, yeah... They don't have any intereasting powers like the paramecia and they aren't destructive like the logia. They are reliant on YOU being good at fighting already and not the fact the powers can make you do incrediable things. One-Winged Hawk 07:54, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

Partial Transformations
This is not explicitly stated in any way. Neither have we ever seen Marco and Lafitte transform into any other form that can be an alternative explanation for their hybrid forms.

The arms--> wings could be a standard hybrid form of all bird types, phoenix and whatever lafitte is. We have never seen bird zoans, let alone seen their hybrid transformations.

what we know so far about zoans is that mammalian forms hybridise with humans to produce a were-human effect. reptiles, like the snake, have shown to interact differently. birds could very well be standardised around having just the arms turn into wings while maintaining a humanoid body.

Drunk samurai is insistant on adding this speculation, and keeps undoing all efforts to remove it. pls help to keep watch and remove this line. --Hyper megaman 06:34, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

I kinda beg to differ. We have seen Bird Zoan users, but not their hybrid form. Does anyone remember Pell, he is Vivi's friend and stars in the Arabasta arc. We see all his transformations. We also do see that he has a Bird Zoan fruit. Look at this for proof http://beta.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v19/c169/17.html JonTheMan 02:38, September 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * Are we seeing partial transformations, or zoans in the process of transformating? One-Winged Hawk 07:54, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

Transformations that are complete. Example: Going from human to hybrid form then looking at the hybrid form. JonTheMan 02:38, September 6, 2009 (UTC)

Good point Jon. Still it could be an anomaly, like chopper is to the mammalian family. Until explicit evidence is shown that it's a specific type of partial transformation without the use of the rumble ball, it's still speculation i'm afraid. --Hyper megaman 01:51, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

Carnivorous Zoans
This section is very misleading. It makes people think that carnivorous zoans(CZs) are stronger than herbivorous zoans. Chopper only said that CZs are more violent. It should be made clear where Chopper stops talking and the editor starts. Carnivores are not naturally more powerful or dangerous than herbivores in a lot of instances.--68.251.45.23 17:51, September 10, 2009 (UTC)Vincent

Didn't i rewrite it already? aside from more violent tendencies and specially equipped functions like claws and fangs, i didn't include anything else--Hyper megaman 03:11, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

It's much better than before. I had changed it but some fag undid it. I still think that you should start the next sentence off with 'it seems' or something like that to draw a clear line that Chopper isn't talking anymore. There's the fact that in a lot of cases predators aren't naturally more dangerous than what they hunt. That's why a lot of predators are pack hunters. A single bull or horse is far more dangerous than a single wolf if they're all after you.--68.251.45.23 06:34, September 12, 2009 (UTC)Vincent

Objects
Should it be noted that all the items that have "eaten" devil fruits have eaten zoans? Also, could this be a zoan: Look at the spiked ball on the chain.--DancePowderer 00:13, October 26, 2009 (UTC)

Control
Marco has shown advanced control over his Devil Fruit, being able to grow Phoenix wings without going into his hybrid form. Therefore, it should be noted upon. The Pope 22:11, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

Ok The Pope, I'm starting a discution since you don't want to and since it will give me enough place to explain my point of view : Those are clearly phrases that indicate speculation, I do not say you are wrong, but you have to reformulate.
 * It has been hinted that,
 * while it is not confirmed
 * let alone even uses a Devil Fruit

"given enough control over their power" : once again, how do you know that ? Marco could have something similar to Chopper Rumble ball. I know that sounds stupid, but the fact is that we don't know how Marco is able to do it.

So personnaly, I would wait until we know more about that issue to write it. But, if you really want to have the legitimity on it, don't speak about Lafitte and don't say that you know the reason behind that. You are probably right but there is no real proof so far User:Kdom ~22:00 December 7, 2009 (UTC+1)


 * Psst; what happened to signing your name with ~, thats naughty to forget. ;-)


 * I agree since its long established that there were only 3 types and Chopper was the only known method of expanding on it. Also, they could just be "mid" transformation for all we know. Marco's wings is simlair to BB's navigator though I do note; I think we need to wait for more info at the very least. :-/ 21:18, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

First of all, if you had actually read the talk page, you would've seen that I was starting a discussion. Why you just decided to go ahead and assume I hadn't is beyond me.

Marco doesn't have any kind of physical body-altering substance that allows him to change shape; it's clearly from his own merit. And he has shown that he can sprout certain phoenix parts without going into a hybrid form. While it's not definite yet, it's worth being noted upon.

As for Lafitte, the reason he's put there as well is because he has shown similar abilities. While noting upon him is indeed speculation, he still deserves attention, as his and Marco's cases are similar. The Pope 21:56, December 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * It's true that if Marco had used a "physical body-altering substance", Oda most likely would've depicted him using it or at least have a character mention it. However, Chopper's Rumble Ball isn't the only known method, it's the only known 'external' one. Marco might use something similar to Rob Lucci's Seimei Kikan: Kami-e Bushin. It may be his level of control, a mid-transformation, like Lucci's Life Return, or a trait unique to certain Devil Fruits (same goes for Lafitte). Who knows? Let's wait & see.
 * Kaizoku-Hime 22:22, December 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * To my defense it would have been clearer if you just told me rather than continuing the edit war which made me have a misunderstanding.
 * On the point, it's not because Marco does not show any substance that he doesn't have one. Oda only shows us what he wants us to know so far. If you remember Robin devil fruit first apparition or Ace speaking about his father in Impel Down, this were really misleading scenes so we shall not jump to the first conclusion. There is no reason to hurry, so why can't we wait until we know more about this. Kdom 22:26, December 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * You can read talk pages the same as articles. Plus "Recent Changes" would show it up. Theres actually no need to tell another editor you have started a discussion (unless its ultra important like on our forums and guidelines pages), but it does help if they miss it you notify them if they continue the edit war. But in agreement, waiting is indeed a good thing, I think back to the assumptions we've made in the past when chapters are fresh out and the later edits we've made previously to fix them. A few days later someone points to the correct translation and "oh-uh" we've got to edit things. :-/ One-Winged Hawk 00:32, December 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * For Marco having just flaming wings without a bird head could be just his hybrid form and not another form in entirety. The same can go for Lafitte and Onigumo, both of whom have animal parts but no animal heads. Just because they don't have more animal characteristics, doesn't instantly mean that its not a hybrid form. It's a bit speculative cause its different from what most other Zoans are depicted but a bit more reliable than saying they have another form. I mean Marco has only shown so far 3 forms, the maximum of natural Zoan forms. Unless he creates another form that's different from him just having wings then its speculative to say that he has more mastery and able to make more forms.Mugiwara Franky 23:13, December 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * ok so that is 3 vs 1. Does somebody have any other argument ? If no, can we agree to undo the edit then ? Kdom December 9, 2009


 * Please sign your comments with ~.


 * Well at the basic level, Zoans middle transformation is stated on our Zoan page that they usually formed in a bizarre way. So, in good respects to MF, then yes, perhaps that is indeed Marco's combined form. One-Winged Hawk 20:28, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Well since the last chapters, we have seen that Marco has several middle transformations, (in chapter 554 he has only the wings out, while in the chapter 574 he has both wings and legs), so maybe we can consider it is not speculation anymore. Kdom 11:42, February 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * For the talons, I'm not exactly sure on the matter myself. Might be mid transformation, might be Marco having more control. Him transforming in this form might be noteworthy but I'm not sure if it's truly more control.Mugiwara Franky 12:27, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

Yes control is not really appropriate and we have to reformulate it but in chapter 554 or in Chapter 566 the transformation is clearly different than in Chapter 574. So with the animal and human form that is at least 4 transformations and that should be notified. Kdom 13:20, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

English
God! which idiot keeps changing "Zoans" to "Zoan's"?! Basic english lessons anyone? plural adds just one "s" to the frickin end. adding an apostrophe denotes possession.

Anyway I'm not free so I can't do the changes, but if someone could change allt he Zoan's back to Zoans (except for the possessive terms of course), it'd be great. Cheers 59.167.203.224 14:23, March 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thats hardly worth fussing about, just edit it... And you can do that yourself. :-/ One-Winged Hawk 15:07, March 18, 2010 (UTC)

Disambigs for fruits with different models?
Should we make disambiguation pages for the Zoan fruits that have multiple models? For example "Ushi Ushi no Mi" would be a disambig page that led to the pages for Model: Giraffe and Model: Bison. 2xN 17:18, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

Spelling
Why the "," and the ":" on their names? I think it would be easier if we call them (example) "Inu Inu no Mi model wolf". --Meganoide 22:25, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

It's just a better way to denote a subcategory for the fruit. The colon shows that multiple fruits can belong to the same category, like how the inu inu no mi has models for wolf, dachsund, and jackal. It's similar to how car companies mark their different models, ex Ford, model: Taurus. It's just better for categorizing purposes.DancePowderer 22:33, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Marco
wouldnt ir be much easier to say that marco ate the Tori Tori no mi Model:Phoenix, than calling it an unamed devil fruit?--Imhungry4444


 * No, I dont think it was named at all :)--

do zoan fruits only grant mammal and bird transformations? what would happen if there was a fish or marine animal zoan fruit, would you still be unable to swim? would the hybrid form be a regular fishman? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.194.114.28 (talk • contribs) 19:43, June 2, 2011. Please sign your posts with ~ next time!


 * We don't know, we can only make guesses at this level; and talk pages are not for speculation (bring this to a forum).
 * Also, sign your posts with four tildes ~ . 19:55, June 2, 2011 (UTC)

Awakened Zoan
It is stated under awakened zoan that "They are always in an animal form and yet they are somehow able to stand erect and to hold weapons". To me it seems pretty ovious that this is their hybrid form, not their full transformation. I base this on the fact that they have fingers, "human" abs, and just all in all a body more human than animal (plus the fact that they are huge, which is a traint often asosiated with hybrid forms). Anyone mind me changing this? Cosmikaze 20:24, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah delete this sentence..

I changed it, but someone changed it back. Now im not gonna start an edit war here, but i really dont see how they are "similar to their animal form" Cosmikaze 00:28, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

If they were in their hybrid form they would also be smaller. SeaTerror 18:07, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Exept Chopper (and Marco, if he counts), i think every Zoan is biggest in his or her hybrid form.Cosmikaze 18:33, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Lafitte/Onigumo
Until it's confirmed, shouldn't these two (or at least Onigumo) be removed as examples? I mean Onigumo didn't actually grow spider legs, nor did anything beyond his hair change or alter; for all we know it's a Paramecia-Class that allows one to control and manipulate their hair. Lafitte is most likely Zoan though, but it's still not confirmed.--Kagi mizu -Seeya 'round 07:20, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

I agree it should be removed. That being said, for Onigumo the reason people think it is a zoan i because of this image where he is seen with part of a spiders body. If it wernt for that i would say it was Paramecia or just some avanced life return, but that image makes me unsure. Cosmikaze 13:13, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Removed it. 13:22, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Well that image makes me unsure now as well. Until seeing that image all I saw was Onigumo manipulating his hair; no such thorax or whatnot. While a convincing image for sure, speculation is still speculation, and should be removed for the sake of accuracy and dependability.--Kagi mizu -Seeya 'round 17:49, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Like I said, removed the speculative parts and removed the categories. There's currently a forum about unconfirmed devil fruits if you want to participate: http://onepiece.wikia.com/index.php?title=Forum:Unknown_Devil_Fruit_confirmation_and_speculation_issues.&t=20120116133033 17:51, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Laffitte I don't care if he's removed. But, Onigumo is a Zoan, how hard it that to comprehend? He was seen without the spider abdomen when carrying Ace, so it's not like he has that thing all the time. Insect Zoans aren't unheard of (Epoida), so I don't see why it's so hard to accept that he is a fruit user. There are times when the "wait til it's explained" method is a good idea, but then there are times where deductive conclusions win out. This is one of the times where deductive conclusions win out. Also, it's not like we aren't allowed to be wrong. If a sound conclusion can be made with the information given, then make it. If something turns up that otherwise proves that wrong, then we can fix it. I can't understand why people are so up in arms about Onigumo being a Zoan when he can grow a second ass belonging to a different animal. 22:49, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

For me it's a simple matter of "Why add speculation when his abilities can be perfectly described without it?" I understand that he probably is a devil fruit user, but still speculation is speculation. 22:57, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

So, if Sakazuki's abilities were never referred to as a Devil Fruit power, you wouldn't add that his ability to produce and turn into magma stems from a Devil Fruit? If there is so much overwhelming evidence that the fact borders on obvious, then it almost seems silly not to just say that the ability is from a fruit. 00:18, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

There's a difference between obvious and speculation. Heck, your mention of the thorax just proves more so that it's speculation and not cemented fact. Yes, there are certain things that make a Devil Fruit obvious, such as Logia fruits and very obvious transformations. However, all that has been consistently seen is Onigumo controlling his hair in a manner similar to spider arms, befitting his name. Until explicit, consistent, undeniable evidence has been revealed that proves it, you keep the evidence off. If you want it solved quickly, try the SBS.--Kagi mizu -Seeya 'round 02:54, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

If Onigumo's is a Devil Fruit then Laffitte has a Devil Fruit too. Its still speculation as its unconfirmed. (Although I believe its a Devil Fruit). And Akainu's case was way, way more clear.

I thought it was decided in the forum to leave out speculative devil fruits or place them in a separate category labeled "Possible Devil Fruit Users". Maybe this was only for the DF page, but it could apply here. Speculation is speculation to me. 02:59, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

I think Akainu explicitely stated his was a logia DF (the debate may have been before that), so it was far more clear. 03:33, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'm glad to see people agree with me. I've come to this wiki for quite some time (only edited here and there recently), and seeing that without confirmation bugged me, so I brought it up.--Kagi mizu -Seeya 'round 03:55, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Onigumo and Laffitte are completely different characters, so don't try to put them together. Akainu might not have been the best example, but you get my point, there are times when you'd have to be blind to see that an ability doesn't stem from a Devil Fruit. Just tell me this. If Onigumo's spider abdomen isn't from a Devil Fruit, then what is it from? I don't see how you can explain his ability to grow a new lower body without using the words "Devil Fruit" and still make sense. If you could provide a rational explanation of what the hell else it could be, then I'll concede it should stay off the page. My rule of thumb for determining if something is a Devil Fruit is to rule out all other possibilities and thereby eliminating any doubt. Urouge is a prime example of someone with abnormal abilities that I wouldn't immediately attribute to a Devil Fruit. I just don't see what else Onigumo could be. The way I see it, if the facts are there to support it and there is little or no feasible evidence to the contrary, then the right conclusion should be obvious. 04:44, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

You misunderstand DP; I only mean that Onigumo's powers may not be a Zoan Devil Fruit; perhaps a Paramecia, or maybe even Rokushiki. Point is that while the likelihood that it's a Devil Fruit is high, there is no confirmation as to whether or not that is the case, and whether or not it is a Zoan Devil Fruit. And without such certainty, he should not be used as an example for as a Zoan Devil Fruit user until it can be said for certain that he is a Zoan Devil Fruit user.--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 05:05, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Just a question DP, have you considered Life Return or simply being another species (lafitte formerly living on a sky island)? If you have, then by all means, go ahead and add it. If it is obvious that it is a Zoan, then go ahead.

As for Kagimizu, I think that if they have a DF at all, it is probably a Zoan. If we "speculate" that it is a DF, then we can do a little more speculating and say it is a Zoan. 05:11, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Just holding DP up to his own standards. If he can give undeniable, completely 100% sure proof of his side, then he can add it. But if he could, he would have shown such proof already. And even if speculating that he's a Devil Fruit user and looking at evidence makes it likely it's Zoan, it's still speculating nonetheless and as such, does not deserve to be used in this article as a reliable example.--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 05:15, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

It is obvious Onigumo is a Zoan but Laffitte could be either Zoan or Paramecia. Such as Oda possibly doing an Icarus reference or a Cupid reference. The Life Return theory is just flat out ridiculous. SeaTerror 17:53, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

I turn your attention to Kumadori. Now, what did he use Life Return to do?--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 18:56, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

No, its not life return. Maybe both are Devil Fruits but we dont know for sure. And we cant speculate if its a Paramecia or Zoan. So we should put that under 'Abilities and Powers' like we do with every character here and not categorize them as Devil Fruits until Oda reveals it.

To use his hair as a weapon like flowing water. Not turn it into spider legs. SeaTerror 20:03, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, the Life Return thing was a freakin example. Don't overthink it. Anyways, I vote we go along with what LPK says, and not specifically say it is either one. 20:15, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

That's what I'm saying. My problem is that they were used as examples of Zoan Devil Fruits, when we don't even know for sure. Using speculation as an example does not make for reliable information.--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 20:21, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

I've removed them from the examples, took them out of the devil fruit categories and reworded their abilities to be less speculative. What more do you want? If it's about unconfirmed fruits in general then take it to the forum I linked. 20:32, January 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * 1) Didn't know you did all that. If that's the case, then there isn't much more you can do.
 * 2) I assumed that this debate was still about whether or not they should be in this article, not whether or not they have Devil Fruit powers period.

--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 20:36, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Momonosuke's Devil Fruit
If SMILE are created using SAD, an ingredient that only Ceasar can create, and if Momonosuke ate a Devil Fruit created by Vegapunk, then how can the fruit that Momo ate be considered a SMILE? I think it's premature to call Momo's Devil Fruit a SMILE until we get confirmation. - Racht  18:18, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

Good point. I think people were just taken in by the matching patterns and assumed it fell in with the Smiles. 18:24, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

SMILEs
Did the Japanese chapter 689 say specifically that the SMILEs are perfect artifical Zoan Devil Fruits? Doflamingo and 3/4 of the current Yonko strike me as the kind of people who won't care if they're imperfect as long as they transform the eater into an animal of some kind that is a useful fighter.Alteisen Riese (talk) 22:49, November 21, 2012 (UTC)

The explanation had nothing to do with perfection. A Yonko is doing business for the fruits, and they're made from SAD. That's all we know. 22:58, November 21, 2012 (UTC)