Talk:Kin'emon

Confirmation?
I think we can confirm that the Samurai from Wano's actual name is Will-O the Wispkinemon ,evident from events that take place in chapter 664.Hordy4040 13:14, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Nevermind ,just a terrible translation.Hordy4040 13:27, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

His name is Kinemon of Foxfire (狐火の錦えもん). --Klobis 14:41, April 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * But isn't Will-o'-the-Wisp actually the correct translation of 狐火 (kitsunebi)? Or are there some furigana indicating you'd need to translate 狐 and 火 seperately? -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 23:29, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

There are various eastern folklore that are similar to western ones. Both wotw & kitsunebi are glowing balls of fire carried by spirits, however the origins are different. & I believe the Japanese translation of "Will-o-wisp" would be "demon fire" (鬼火).
 * 海賊-姫 23:45, April 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * I can confirm this. Kitsunebi (lit; Foxfire) is a phenomenon associated with the nine-tailed fox legends, whilst taking the form of mysterious fireballs, they are not will-o-the-wisps as in western culture since they do not have to occur over a lake and are associated more with foxes than lakes. They are also quite highly related to another phenomenon regarding kitsune: the hoshi no tama(lit; ball of stars, or: star ball) which is believed to be linked to the fox's transformation.


 * On a side note, I would advise against translating kitsunebi no Kinemon as 'Kinemon of foxfire' and reccomend 'Kinemon of the foxfire' or 'Foxfire Kinemon' (comparable to 'Mugiwara no rufi' - 'Strawhat Luffy' or 'Haiena no berami' - 'Bellamy the hyena')Pharap 23:09, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

Speculation
Unless Oda actually writes that Kinemon has a paramecia, should we really classify him as such? The only reason I'm saying this is because of the legend known as the Tanuki which is known to be able to produce clothes, which Kinemon could very well be. When they're two different possibilities, it's best not to speculate. 04:04, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

After briefly searching for the mythical tanuki (my research for it right now is not very valid, by the way), I found nothing that talked about the Tanuki being able to produce clothes, except of course when you kill it and wear its fur. Couldst thou provide a source? 04:13, October 3, 2012 (UTC).

As the tanuki, the animal has been significant in Japanese folklore since ancient times. The legendary tanuki is reputed to be mischievous and jolly, a master of disguise and shapeshifting, but somewhat gullible and absentminded. It is also a common theme in Japanese art, especially statuary. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_raccoon_dog 04:16, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

...But that doesn't state if they're able to produce clothes in any way. Chameleons are masters of disguising, too. Blending in with the environment. 04:26, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

The people (i.e. Marco and Sengoku) who have used mythical zoan abilities (Regeration and shockwaves respectively) have only used them when transformed into hybrid or full animal form. It's not impossible that Kinemon's a tanuki or kitsune zoan, but if he was then it's likely he would have to transform to use his substitution ability. Given that all signs currently point to paramecia, it's fine to put it in that category unless it's expressly stated to be Zoan later on (which will be clear when the name of the fruit's revealed). This is what we've done for all other fruits so far - put them in the most appropriate category until evidence appears to the contrary. 04:57, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Zodiaque. From what we know, it's safe enough to categorize him as that for now. If it turns out later that he is something else, we can change it, no big deal. 15:15, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Zodiaque and DP. Also, we probably aren't gonna get the name of it the story (because he only knew it was a "strange fruit), so we'll have to wait for an SBS to come out. 15:31, October 3, 2012 (UTC)

Dead catagory?
Yeah i know he probably will turn out fine in the end, but at the same time its been pretty well established that, that gas KILLS!!! so shouldnt he be in the catagory of dead characters? at least until we get a comfirmation that he lives? brook even flat out stated that he died Biropg (talk) 05:54, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

According to Caesar, the problem with his original attempts at the weapon was that it took a long time for the poison to work, so the whole point of Smiley's gas is that immobilizes people in that crusty stuff first. Kinemon got exposed recently, so he's probably still alive for now. But regardless, we should at least wait a chapter or two to make sure since it does seem rather obvious that he'll be fine. 06:15, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

How do we know there's even a waiting period? Brook said he's dead, there's no other evidence or reason to suggest otherwise. Fuck whoever brings up Pell this isn't Alabasta, the two aren't connected. 00:59, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

Brook does not know anything about how the gas works, and so do we. He's not dead until proven otherwise (and that won't happen).

Yeah, he is. If Brook knows as much about the gas as we do, then that means he can safely conclude about Kinemon's death. 17:45, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

What are you talking about? We know nothing about how the gas works, notably the time it takes to kill people. Stating he's dead is speculation. He's alive until proven otherwise.

Apparently it's not an instant killing gas, as it was said in chapter 675 the first time people had the time to got away from it, this is how the centaurs lost his limbs. The new version simply immobilize the targets giving the gas its time to take effect. I don't know if we should treat kinemon and the others as dead or not, but eventually we will know their destiny so it's not really important what we choose now. Usually we stay on the safe side and don't jump to conclusions.

And in 690, when Caesar wastes his own men, the guys in the control room exclaim "they're dead." Caesar then says he doesn't care if they die. From the way he says it, he's agreeing with them that they are presently dead, not that they will be in a little while. 22:37, December 15, 2012 (UTC)

I would think that Caesar's just saying that the men are dead because he doesn't think there's a way to cure the stuff. Also, touching the gas doesn't always mean instant death, because Luffy manged to touch it and not die while delivering the final blow to Caesar, and he even got his arms encased a little bit. But he's totally fine a few pages later. We can't confirm that he's dead, but we can't confirm that he's alive. Let's just leave him as alive until we get confirmation either way. 06:44, December 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * No, we should do it the other way around: since Brook "confirmed" Kinemon is dead, we should say he's dead until/unless otherwise. Luffy's arms encased a little, that's nothing compared to Kinemon completely encased. 07:06, December 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * If Brook hadn't said he died from the gas, I'd say to leave the category off. But we have confirmation and a body to back it up. That's really what clinched it for me. If he had just said "Kinemon got hit by the gas.", then  it would raise doubt. 07:36, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

With Oda it is always "alive until proven otherwise. It is wrong to ever put the dead character template on a character unless it is actually confirmed. SeaTerror (talk) 09:07, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

Brook confirmed it with his own words. 09:24, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

He also couldn't have put it more plainly. And if you're going to try and pull the Pell card (and let's face it, you are),  this time we actually have a body. 10:31, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

A body? That was also your argument for stating Brownbeard was dead, which was speculation—and indeed turned off wrong. Brook does not confirm anything. He knows nothing about the gas. He thinks he's dead. You may think so too. But that's by no means confirmed. Not putting the category in is speculation-safe: it does not equal stating "he's alive", it's simply be prudent. On the contrary, if the category is in, it unambiguously states that he's dead, which is speculation—not allowed on the wiki.

I agree with Sff. I don't think Brook has the knowledge to confirm that. I think Brook himself is speculating. 18:35, December 16, 2012 (UTC)

If Brook was speculating, then why was he so damn certain? He didn't say "I think he's dead" or "He might be dead.", he said he was dead. Brownbeard was tagged as dead because someone said it after he got shot point blank by multiple rounds from a gun built for giants, not me speculating. And again, if no one had said anything about death, I'd have said to leave it off of Brownbeard. Same goes for right now. We can't provide any evidence to the contrary. Deciding that Brook doesn't know shit about the gas is just as much speculation right now as saying that the gas didn't kill Kinemon. Directly deciding to contradict what the manga said just makes us look arrogant (and I mean everyone, not just you guys) and like we're choosing not to acknowledge something that happened. And, if it turns out that Kinemon did somehow survive coming into contact with the deadly gas, then guess what? We can remove the category. But, until that happens, we should treat it the way it's being treated in the story, which is dead. 01:15, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

Brook is impulsive. He panics. It's just part of his character. Of course he'd think he is dead. But saying in his page "He is dead" would actually be speculative, since only Brook sees him being dead. Saying "he is not dead" is also speculative, since he could be dead. Why not just say "he's frozen from the gas, and is believed to be dead"? It's true to the current state of the story on both counts, doesn't treat him as dead nor alive truly, and if he does end up dead, just add the category. Problem solved. 03:36, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

I still think it's reasonable to wait until it's confirmed he IS alive or dead. If he's still alive, remove the category. If he's not, keep it as it is. In bleakness and terror beyond all human hope, the Gods guard the jimmies for centuries to come... (talk) 03:37, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, but all those centaurs outside were probably dead by being exposed to the same gas anyways. Caesar said so himself. 03:42, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

He also said the gas takes awhile to work. It is better to just remove the category and do what Nada said. SeaTerror (talk) 03:48, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

The subordinates who saw it on the monitors also said they were dead right away. Caesar didn't really say anything to make anyone believe otherwise, and I'm pretty sure he said something similar when Shinokuni was first activated and took out the guys out side near the sled. And ST, he just said he needed a way to keep people from running since too many got away last time. We still don't know how long it takes. 03:50, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

@DP "If Brook was speculating, then why was he so damn certain?" He was not "speculating" as in "hey, let us try and guess if Kinemon is alive!". Our point is as far as we know, he doesn't know anything about the gas. Remaining prudent about this is not contradicting what the manga says, but only questioning what a totally uninformed character says. Remaining prudent and trying not to put unsure information does not make us look arrogant at all… On the contrary, putting the "dead" category as if we were sure does make us look arrogant in my opinion. "And, if it turns out that Kinemon did somehow survive […], then guess what? We can remove the category." That's not how it works at all! The articles must not contain unconfirmed information, at any point in time… That's the basics of a wiki! How is the reader supposed to distinguish between real info and info that we're gonna remove eventually because it was speculation? Granted, sometimes Oda tricks us, we cannot do anything against it (like Blackbeard eating two fruits, for example). But when we can avoid this, we must.

I still think we should play it as it reads and use suspension of disbelief. Let me give you another example. Let's say, instead of getting gassed, Kinemon's heart stopped and he is declared legally dead for the next three chapters, during which multiple people confirm that he is dead in one way or another with no chance of resuscitation. But through the power of deus ex machina, he gets revived in the fourth chapter after his death. During those chapters where he is declared and legally dead,  would you still be skeptical despite it being reinforced repeatedly? Good sense would tell me you would add the dead character tag to his page. But, the fourth chapter rolls around and suddenly it turns out it was his evil twin or he somehow got revived. Given the new information, it would now make sense to remove the category. But, before that, what reason would we have to remove it? There would  be no reason to support removing it given what we know and what the characters know. Going back to the current scenario, we know that the gas kills and we know Kinemon fell victim to it. We don't know how long the gas takes to kill its victims or if there's much of a waiting period at all (it seems to quick since the living immediately write off the victims as dead), or how much time passed between Kinemon getting hit and Brook returning to building R. There is nothing conclusive to suggest he is still alive, and so should be treated as dead for now, since there is more raw evidence to support that than him being alive. 20:17, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

Your example is exactly what I had in mind when I said that Oda can "trick us". Obviously, you're right, it would be worth a "dead character" tag. Because otherwise we cannot write anything in the wiki for fear of plot twists! We are bound to trust the author at some point. But it's really not the case here in my opinion. As you say, we don't know the time it takes for the gas to kill people. Characters say that victims are dead, but they don't know more than us, as far as we know they just see them changed into statues after having been hit by "killer gas" and assume they're dead—anyone would probably react the same. Caesar (the only character who actually knows about the gas) says that they're doomed, but was never really specific. What I mean is that we should stick to the facts. Fact: the gas is said to kill, but not instantaneously. Fact: Brook thinks Kinemon's dead. That's all. We can state that he's believed to be dead. But it's not enough to put him in the category. Actually, now that I think about it, there used to be a category specifically designed for these cases: Category:Presumed Deceased. It was deleted as speculative, but I don't think it is, if correctly used. In any case, it's better to use it than to mix confirmed and unconfirmed deaths.

Restoring that category would be the best way to end this argument. 21:51, December 17, 2012 (UTC)

Well, done. Hope it won't bring too many other problems.

Now we just wait for Sabo to be added to that category. 02:12, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, that was the one hang-up I had about the category. But hey, we don't have to worry about that because guess who's been locked for a while now? 02:30, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

We don't need speculative categories. We might as well also make a "Presumed Characters with Black Hair" category every time a new character who's hair is colored dark is shown in the manga. SeaTerror (talk) 04:00, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

When even the character are speculative, I believe a "speculation category" is appropriate. And dark hair is a super minor detail. Nobody really cares about that. 04:30, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

The point is it is speculation and we do not need speculation. The best thing that we could do is to leave the dead category off the articles unless absolutely confirmed. Which is what you suggested earlier. That is how it always worked and it has worked perfectly. We do not need speculative categories. My example showed how stupid it is and how easily abused it could be. SeaTerror (talk) 04:58, December 18, 2012 (UTC)