Talk:Yamato

Gender Confirmation in Vivre Card
From what leaks have been posted by ScotchInformer and EMUNOPLA (who are both reliable informants), it currently appears as though Vivre Card lists Yamato's gender as just female. To be as safe as possible and prevent any potential for error, I don't think any changes should be made to the page on that front until we have clear access to a scan/picture of the card that gives indisputable evidence.

I also don't intend to simply take executive action on this; the final decision should be based on the community's input. (absolutely no transphobic comments permitted). Personally, I went into this Vivre Card's release with the view that whatever it listed for Yamato's gender, is what I think the wiki should list unless the manga clearly goes in a different path in the future. As of right now, I do not believe the manga has presented anything compelling enough to contradict Vivre Card. That's also not to mention that Vivre Card lists an explicitly transgender character in Kiku as Male (Heart of a Female), a distinction which as far as I know now was not given to Yamato. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 05:58, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't really mind whatever gender we use on the wiki, but think we should use what the vivre cards say. I say we should wait on it and continue using gender neutral pronouns till this has been confirmed by multiple translators or maybe the gender is mentioned in some official translation. Better to just keep going as we have till there is proper mention of gender. ( Dot  Talk  ) 06:04, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I very strongly believe that this is an instance of a databook contradicting the manga, so I don't think the difference in the language on Kiku's card matters. The evidence in the manga itself which suggests that Yamato identifies as a man is overwhelming compared to the things suggesting otherwise. I'd like to lay out why I think that (using information that has come out in the manga since previous discussions on this talk page), but I don't know if this is an appropriate place to do that. DewClamChum (talk) 06:07, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I believe that the manga is a higher priority than the Vivre Card when it comes to this but for now we should continue using gender-neutral pronouns until the manga provides us with more information. Characters who actually know Yamato personally are very consistent with calling Yamato 'He' and Yamato likely would have corrected them at some point if they wanted to be addressed as 'She'. Damage3245 (talk) 07:56, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I’m going to go ahead and lay out all of my arguments for why I think we should refer to Yamato as a man and why I think his Vivre Card contradicts the manga, since this seems like the best opportunity. Sorry that it's a lot. I’m doing my best to objectively look at the evidence presented in the story, I have no personal attachment to any set of pronouns for Yamato. I’m completely open to Yamato referring to himself as a woman in the future, but there’s currently nothing in the story which suggests that’ll happen, so I think it’s an extremely weak argument to speculate about what may happen in the future.

First of all, I think Yamato’s own words should be taken as the most important pieces of evidence. In Chapter 994, Yamato says that his “other name is Yamato”, which suggests that he differentiates his Yamato-self and his Oden-self. When Yamato introduces himself to Luffy in Chapter 983, he says “my name is Yamato, I am Kaido’s son.” This is an unambiguous instance of him referring to himself as a man while explicitly calling himself Yamato and not Oden. To me, this clearly shows that he thinks of himself as a man using either name, not just when calling himself Oden. Yamato also tells Luffy that he “became a man”, which is a blunt declaration of his gender similar to Kiku saying that she’s a woman at heart. These are very clear examples of Yamato referring to himself as a man, while he has said nothing which suggests that he thinks of himself as a woman.

If Yamato’s own words aren’t enough (although I think that they should be), the fact that Kaido refers to Yamato as his son is also a big piece of evidence. Kaido clearly does not respect Yamato calling himself Oden, since he beats him for it, but he still refers to Yamato as a man regardless. I think this is another very strong indicator that Yamato’s identity as a man can be considered separately from his identity as Oden. The only room for doubt here is the idea that Kaido has some unknown reason for referring to Yamato as a man, which is another example of people using completely unfounded speculation as an argument. Likewise, all of Kaido’s subordinates refer to him as Yamato-botchan (botchan being a word specifically referring to boys). When Yamato takes his mask off, Luffy plainly asks him if he actually meant to say “son” and Yamato basically replies “yes, I’m a man”, after which Luffy starts referring to him as a man (Yama-o). All of this seems VERY cut and dried to me.

One of the main arguments in favor of referring to Yamato as a woman is that his infobox referred to him as Kaido’s daughter, but I think this is overruled by the mass amount of evidence in the actual story stating otherwise. I don’t think it’s any different from Kiku’s infobox referring to her as Izo’s brother. It’s impossible to know Oda’s intention with the infobox, but I think treating it as the word of God while ignoring all of the other statements given to us by the actual characters in the story is strange. The other major argument I see is that Yamato simply identifies as Oden and not specifically as a man, which I think I’ve refuted with the “other name” stuff above. Yamato obviously identifies as a man because of Oden, but that doesn’t change the fact that he DOES identify as a man and not a woman. His actual reasoning really holds no bearing, it’s just simply a matter of fact that Yamato does identify as a man, and his pronouns should reflect that. DewClamChum (talk) 08:08, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Look, I don't get why people are still being so difficult when we finally have an OFFICIAL source that lists Yamato's gender. This is what we were waiting for all along, official confirmation! It's clear now that Yamato is not truly trans, but rather emulates Oden only (so far as calling Momo her own son), as so many seem to believe already. If we cannot trust what the Vivre cards say as canon, then we should remove ALL info from them, including bounties. It's as simple as that. We simply don't get to cherry-pick what parts of the Vivre cards we want to be canon and which ones we should ignore. That's honestly very disrespectful to the author. Timjer (talk) 08:12, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Databooks are a secondary source because they aren't directly written by Oda. Oda simply provides pieces of information for them to use. We have no idea which parts of the databooks are based on information Oda provided/approved of and which were just written by the people writing the databook. Vivre Cards have had incorrect information in them in the past, there's even an official website dedicated to correcting the mistakes. If a piece of information contradicts the manga, then it is considered non-canon. Information in databooks is not all or nothing. DewClamChum (talk) 09:11, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

You just don't get it, do you? One, the Vivre Cards are still an official  source and it's not up to us to decide which parts are canon and which are not. The gender part could very well come directly from Oda himself. Second, there is NO contradiction. As some of us have been trying to tell you, Yamato is simply emulating Oden. That's her entire character arc so far. If Oden happened to be female, then Yamato would still call herself female; she's not like Kiku, who actually is confirmed to be trans. The fact that you insist that it means that Yamato is only trans shows that you do not understand her character at all. Just accept the fact that you were wrong and move on. A fictional character just isn't worth all this. Timjer (talk) 09:22, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Pictures are out and it's confirmed. Yamato is female and described as an "oni princess". Recently she was also featured in a video compilation of female characters posted by Oda's official staff Twitter account. 09:25, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Timjer; you're ignoring the fact that Oden wasn't a woman. It doesn't matter if you can hypothesize how Yamato would identify differently if circumstances had been different because that's clearly not what is happening in the present. It's also extremely rude of you to tell other people "They just don't get it" because they don't subscribe to your opinion. Change your attitude when addressing others, please. Damage3245 (talk) 09:27, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm not deciding which parts are canon and which are not, I'm using the information I have from the manga to make an argument for why I think this specific piece of information is incorrect. I agree that Yamato is emulating Oden and that if Oden was a woman then Yamato almost certainly would also identify as a woman. That doesn't change the fact that Oden was a man and because of that Yamato identifies as a man. The reason doesn't matter. The pronouns you refer to a person as are generally a reflection of that person's personal identification and nothing any character has said in the story has indicated that Yamato identifies as a woman, while there's a ton of stuff indicating that he identifies as a man, so female pronouns are just objectively incorrect. That's the contradiction. Unless you can prove that Yamato identifies as a woman, the use of female pronouns is wrong. I don't care about Yamato being trans, I care about making sure that the information on the wiki is correct. If I thought Yamato identified as a woman I would argue for that just a strongly. DewClamChum (talk) 09:34, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Damage3245 Could you please not start with ad hominems? We're here to discuss Yamato's gender, nothing else. I didn't mean to be "extremely rude", but I have been insulted by people on the other side of this argument. So forgive me for being defensive. @Awaikage Exactly. It's jnto a matter of debate anymore. The Vivre Cards and the official twitter and such all blatantly confirm that Yamato is in fact female. Not taking that into account is what is truly making this wiki inaccurate. Timjer (talk) 09:40, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I really don't see what a clip from a project completely unrelated to the actual manga has to do with the canon of the story. Secondary sources aren't canon if they contradict the manga. A video grouping Yamato with female characters has nothing to do with how he has been clearly shown to identify in the manga. DewClamChum (talk) 09:47, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

There is no debate here, Vivre Card are OFFICIAL. Cracker-Kun (talk) 09:49, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@DewClamChum I'm tiring of this. Multiple OFFICIAL sources have by now clarified that Yamato is in fact female. She does NOT identify as male (which the manga does NOT outright say), she merely impersonates Oden. Because again, that's her entire character arc so far. If the sources has in fact stated that Yamato is male then I would have left it there because then I would clearly be in the wrong. But they don't ergo I am not. So please just let this rest. Timjer (talk) 09:55, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I'd really like you to read my longer post up above where I make my arguments, and attempt to refute them, because you're not really responding to my core point which is that I think the Vivre Card contradicts the manga. You just keep repeating that the Vivre Cards are official even though I'm not arguing against that. The idea that Yamato doesn't identify as a man and is only emulating Oden is absolutely not true. Yamato has clearly stated that he "became a man". It's also indicated that he considers his identity as Oden and his identity as Yamato to be separate things when he said that Yamato is his "other name". He has referred to himself as a man while using the name Yamato, not connected to identifying as Oden at all: "My name is Yamato. I am Kaido's son." Kaido rejects Yamato calling himself Oden, but still refers to Yamato as his son, which points towards the fact that his identity as Oden is separate from his identity as a man. Outside sources calling Yamato female has no impact on the character's actual self-identification. DewClamChum (talk) 10:03, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I also agree that there is little to debate at this point and @DewClamChum is being obstinate. As @Timjer said, it is not up to us which pieces of official information we judge to contradict the manga and which not, but just to reiterate:
 * This tweet from the official ONE PIECE twitter account:, describing the animation of popular "female characters" (女性キャラ). It is not merely "a video grouping Yamato with female characters" but a video of female characters, one of which is, in fact, Yamato.
 * The Vivre Card confirms Yamato to be female (in retrospect, Kiku's prior card also had her gender in accordance with her stated gender identity in the manga).
 * Discussions of pronouns are pretty pointless at this point because, once again, the concept of "he/him/his" pronouns doesn't exist in Japanese
 * Yamato has made a point to stress that her "Oden" impersonation does not supplant her original identity (see: Chapter 994: "My Other Name is Yamato").
 * Yamato's first infobox (Chapter 984, last page) introduces her as: "Kaido's daughter: self-styled/would-be Kozuki Oden" (カイドウの娘 自称:光月おでん): here is a dictionary entry for "self-styled": . These infoboxes are as close as one can get to in-story "word of god".
 * Secondly, to speak of transgender identity really quickly, sorry if I didn't directly touch on every point you made @DewClamChum:
 * Yamato claims that, to be like Oden, she had to become a man. One does not simply become transgender, so I don't understand why transgender conventions of gender identity classification would apply in the first place.
 * Yamato repeatedly stresses that, quite literally, she believes that she is Oden. She believes that she is another person. She is not, however. Karama20 (talk) 10:18, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

There have been a lot of well written and strongly thought out arguments here, so sorry if I break that chain, but I’m just gonna give my personal two-cents on the topic. Yamato does not identify as male, she just proclaims herself to be a man. I’m pretty sure there's a difference. And not because of her personal identity, it is because she has an (admittedly creepy) administration for Oden.(GoldenOath20 (talk) 10:25, 1 September 2021 (UTC))

Exactly what Karama20 said; IRL one does not choose to become trans, one just is that way. Yamato outright states she chose to become Oden, chose to become a man. Which I'm pretty sure is not w~tat transgenderism is about. Timjer (talk) 10:27, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Another thing, and I don't mean to extend this discussion anymore than it needs to: I also think that, if one really takes the manga content itself to be contradictory (Yamato being referred to as Kaido's son, then introduced officially via the infobox as his daughter), then especially should the suitable course of action be to look for out-of-manga sources and whatever they corroborate/are consistent with, and use those to make the most accurate determination.Karama20 (talk) 10:41, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

And the only one who seems to be againts is DewClamChum btw, it is stupid to have an argument for this. Cracker-Kun (talk) 10:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Responding to Karama's points:
 * I'm not simply deciding that this information contradicts the manga because I don't like it. I believe that the manga makes Yamato's gender identity clear based on the information we currently have, and so I think official sources which say otherwise are by definition contradicting the manga. I don't care if Yamato is a man or not. I just believe that he is based on the evidence in the story.
 * Sorry for repeating myself, but an official source referring to Yamato as a woman really means nothing if it contradicts the manga itself, which is what I'm arguing for so I can't really go any deeper here.
 * When I refer to the pronouns we should call Yamato I am only talking about what should be done on the wiki in English. Every argument I'm making is entirely based on the original Japanese manga. Yamato is never referred to with male PRONOUNS in Japanese, but he is referred to with WORDS that are ONLY used for men. Musuko, Otoko, Botchan. I'm saying we should use male pronouns for Yamato because in English male pronouns correspond to male gender identity, not because I think they use male pronouns for him in Japanese.
 * Yamato saying that his other name is Yamato is actually one of the biggest points IN FAVOR of referring to him as a man. Yamato refers to himself as a man using HIS OWN NAME, not Oden's, in Chapter 983: "My name is Yamato. I am Kaido's son." If his Oden impersonation does not supplant his original identity, then that quite literally means he identifies as a man outside of identifying as Oden.
 * Yamato's infobox is the strongest piece of evidence opposed to my argument that I'm aware of. I personally believe that it was just being used to clarify to the audience that this person was indeed born female, similar to Kiku's infobox referring to her as Izo's brother, but obviously I can't corroborate that. We have no context for what Yamato being referred to as Kaido's daughter really means in relation to all of the times in the story he is referred to as a man. I think using it to discard those other statements is tantamount to speculation though, because you're basically saying "well Oda must have had some reason we're unaware of for referring to Yamato as a woman in this single instance, even though we don't know what it is", while ignoring the clear examples of Yamato being referred to as a man in the rest of the text. I just think that considering it the word of God over the myriad examples of Yamato being referred to as a man in the story is weird.
 * I really don't care about Yamato's status as trans as it relates to this conversation. I don't believe Yamato as a character has thought deeply about his gender identity, his reasoning for identifying as a man is silly and cartoonish. That doesn't refute the fact that he DOES indeed genuinely identify as a man, though.
 * Yamato does believe he's Oden. That's separate from his identity as a man, as evidenced by him saying Yamato is his other name and still calling himself a man under that name. His gender identity stemming from his belief that he's Oden doesn't refute it, though, like I said.
 * I would agree with your point about the manga itself being contradictory if those were the only two statements made (Yamato being called Kaido's son and then the infobox calling him Kaido's daughter), but the manga has repeatedly gone on to clarify that Yamato identifies as a man. This isn't a situation like a character having two contradictory romanizations of their name in the manga and us using a secondary source to break the tie. The evidence within the manga is overwhelmingly pointing towards Yamato identifying as a man. DewClamChum (talk) 10:47, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't really want to repeat this discussion, but I came here to remind you guys: It was a FANDOM staff member that instructed you guys to use male or at least neutral pronouns in Yamato's article. You, the wiki editors, have no say in this matter. It's up to this staff member on how this wiki operates. So you need to ask her on how to proceed. I'm sure she'll take everything that has transpired since then into account, along with her obviously impeccable knowledge of the Japanese language and culture in general, to come to a satisfying conclusion for the wiki. :) • Seelentau 愛 議 11:00, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

The wiki intervened because nothing clear was known at that point, but now we do, it would be irresponsible of the administrators not to use the official information, which finally clarifies this never-ending issue. Cracker-Kun (talk) 11:03, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Seelentau I may not have been present of that original overruling, but quite frankly Fandom Staff has no right to force incorrect information on this wiki. If the author and other official sources outright say X, then Fandom is in no position to demand this wiki says Y instead. Also, is the fandom staff member in question ZoeCatFu? I HIGHLY doubt she is going to be reasonable on this in any way, considering my experiences with her. Timjer (talk) 11:07, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Cracker-kun: We don't, though. The information of the vivre card holds the same weight as the information in the introbox - both are out-of-universe statements by the author. Staff decided to ignore it back then, there's no reason to think this situation changes that decision. So yeah, I'd suggest Kaido or Awaikage asks the staff member on how to proceed.

@Timjer: They already did that, and of course they can. They own this wiki, they decide which and how you guys are allowed to present information. They erased the entire lyrics wiki from existence simply because some of the lyrics were homophobic. Why do you think I left FANDOM with my own wiki and stepped down from my admin position at the Naruto wiki? That's why. And yes, that's her. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:12, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I can see the direction this is going, but I'd like to make a plea that we at the very least keep the gender-neutral pronouns. I think Yamato's gender identity is bound to be clarified more explicitly at some point in the manga itself, and I really don't think this is enough to start referring to him with female pronouns any more than the infobox in the manga was. The Vivre Card completely lacks nuance and has no explanation for the fact that he and everyone who knows him calls him a man. DewClamChum (talk) 11:14, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Seelentau Well, then that is just blatant abuse of power. Not that I am surprised... Also, were you being sarcastic when you "praised" ZoeCatFu earlier? Because in that case I fully agree with you. Timjer (talk) 11:16, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Timjer It's not an abuse of their power, it perfectly aligns with their rights and how FANDOM and similar websites work. The FANDOM staff has the right to do what they want with all wikis. Of course they can take the thoughts of the admins and users into account, but they don't have to. And that's pretty normal for a website like this. None of the editors or admins own the articles, else, the wiki system wouldn't work. But someone needs to "own" the articles because there always has to be someone (legally) responsible. In this case, it's FANDOM and their staff (representing FANDOM), which brings us back to their right to do what they want. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:22, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

It is an abuse of power, equivalent to restricting and humiliating our criteria to satisfy their selfish and anti-democratic opinion. Cracker-Kun (talk) 11:50, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

A little off-topic, but I hope it gives you guys some insight: A wiki isn't a democracy, only in name. It basically works like this: You come to FANDOM with the offer to open a wiki on their network, to write about things that you find interesting. For smaller wikis, such as my own band-related wiki back in the day, there's not much intervention from FANDOM's side, as long as everything is within their rules. However, for wikis representing a famous brand or series or whatever, you can be certain that FANDOM pulls the strings. And they can do that because it's their wiki. They own it and all its articles. You're only working for them, even when you're the one who started the wiki in the first place. That's why, even when you want to leave FANDOM, you're not allowed to simply delete your wiki. Everything you contribute falls into their hands and they can do with it whatever they want. This ranges from stuff like ads and contests, to stuff like the topic at hand and even as far as deleting an entire wiki because some of its articles are against the rules. And this is perfectly fine, it's their domiciliary right as the hoster and owner of the wiki.

And that's why - to get back to topic - since the decision to use male or neutral pronouns for Yamato was a staff-level decision, it also needs a staff-level decision to change it. They did let you guys change it to "Yamato" across the wiki, but changing it to "she/her" would directly go against the staff-level decision and could result in repercussions for this wiki. It's unlikely, but as I explained, not unheard of. But that's just my two cents. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:17, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Thing is, Seelentau, if the people in charge make decisions based upon what is most convenient for themselves instead of what is best for everyone, then that pretty much IS an abuse of power. And FANDOM may think otherwise, but in the end we're the ones maintaining their sites for them FOR FREE. Ergo, they owe us, not the other way around. And if they don't wish to pay us (fine), then they at least owe us some respect.Timjer (talk) 12:22, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

It's not an abuse of power, because by going to FANDOM and creating a wiki on their network, you've explicitely given them that very same power. That doesn't mean what they're doing is correct or wise or anything but ignorant, but it's all within their rights. Nobody is forcing you to edit here, they don't owe you anything. The moment your actions don't align with their interests, they'll use their powers. So if you want a wiki where female pronouns are used for Yamato, you'll have to create it yourself. That's the reality, always has been. And I mean, usually, everything is fine and dandy. But there have been cases where way bigger wikis have left FANDOM in the past. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:30, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Or we keep the gender-neutral pronouns >for now< but add a separate section on Yamato's page laying out instances of where she is referred to as female by official sources, both in the manga (as in, the infobox, most explicitly) and outside it (Vivre Card, tweet in the context of the One Piece 100 We Are ONE project, ...), similar to the "Translation and Dub Issues" section on Kiku's page, while also explaining that Yamato, so far, has insisted on being male in the context of emulating Oden, has been referred to as Kaido's son and "botchan" etc., and has been referred to with male pronouns by the official English translation, hence the decision on gender-neutrality for now (and saying as much upfront in said section). And then hope that things become "more" conclusive in-story as the current arc goes on (with a possible flashback coming soon if spoilers are to be believed)? Karama20 (talk) 12:42, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

That's perfectly fine with me. Would obviously prefer we refer to him as a man, but I think gender-neutral pronouns are much better than female pronouns as it stands. Would like to reiterate though since you said "Yamato, so far, has insisted on being male in the context of emulating Oden", that Yamato has demonstrably referred to himself as a man in a context which excluded Oden. And has also been called a man by others in a way that excludes Oden. DewClamChum (talk) 12:49, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I'd agree to this solution Karama, what now makes no sense is the neutral-he/him debate, discussing if we keep the neutral or change to she/her is what we'll need to find out in the future. However, I agree with Kage and would finally put "she/her", appearance (this is Japan not some western pro-lgbtq+ country series), they've been found in both female only videos and female only colorspreads, apart from the seyuu ofc, and now the Vivre Card, that has nothing to do with Kiku's case since in hers it stated that she was a "woman at heart". 12:54, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I suppose that's the best compromise for now, Karama20. Especially if an upcoming flashbacks might reveal why Kaido refers to Yamato as "son" (I highly doubt it's because Kaido's a "loving, open-minded parent"). Timjer (talk) 12:58, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

While I can agree with the proposal to outline the points of uncertainty regarding how Yamato presents herself, at the moment I see no reason not to use she/her pronouns. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 15:01, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, being perfectly frank, I would also still be in favor of that, though an additional section for clarification wouldn't do harm, I think. I have seen voting of sorts being done on talk pages on other wikis. Is this done here as well? Would it be appropriate in this situation, to have users do a voting? Karama20 (talk) 15:07, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Honestly, as much as I support a democratic system, this isn't the place for that. Some people are just too obstinate or biased to accept the facts, and most of those discussions tend to derail immensely. I'd say we just take the Vivre Card's word for it. It's not like we vote for everything else it says. Timjer (talk) 15:11, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Kaido, please take this as an advise from a fellow wiki sysop: You should contact the staff in question and ask them about it. Last year, they didn't care about anyone's opinions or arguments and only came here to enforce their command. They didn't post a single other time about this topic. It wasn't up to discussion. This hasn't changed, nor did this somehow become a community issue now. I can see this causing problems if you change anything, since for staff, the situation hasn't changed a bit. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:42, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

The Vivre Card says she's female. So she's female. That's it, end of discussion.

But if you really want to get into the thick of it, she's not trans. She's an Oden cosplayer. She's basically like Mulan; just because she dressed like and pretended to be a man, that didn't make her a man at heart. The basic question comes down to this: which is more prominent, her gender identity or her desire to be like Oden? If Oden was a woman, do you still think Yamato would be acting like a man? No. She'd be acting exactly like Oden was.

To anyone saying "Kaido is being a really progressive father and respecting his son's gender identity," please, don't make me laugh. We've seen what Kaido's like, and how much he "respects" Yamato. While we have yet to see their past, I will bet anything that what really happened is that Kaido's lover popped out a girl, Kaido went "ew no I want a son", started telling everyone in earshot that Yamato was a boy and demanded she keep her mask on to hide her gender, and Yamato got so mad about it she went "Want me to be a man? Fine, I'll be Oden, your sworn enemy. Screw you, Dad." Again, total conjecture, but considering Kaido and Yamato's characters, that seems far more likely than "My child is emulating my sworn enemy so please respect his pronouns".

Anywho, I've always been in the female camp but I would've begrudgingly accepted male pronouns if word of Goda came out as her being trans male. But it's quite the opposite. So there should be no more debate on the matter. You can debate what you feel is correct, but if Goda says she's a woman, she's a woman. End of story. Bye bye. See ya later. The Pope 16:00, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

^^''"I will bet anything that what really happened is that Kaido's lover popped out a girl, Kaido went "ew no I want a son", started telling everyone in earshot that Yamato was a boy and demanded she keep her mask on to hide her gender, and Yamato got so mad about it she went "Want me to be a man? Fine, I'll be Oden, your sworn enemy. Screw you, Dad."''" Hah, actually that's pretty much exactly how I see it as well. Kaido a progressive and supportive father... That's arguably THE dumbest argument for Yamato's gender identity I've ever heard so far. Timjer (talk) 16:04, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Until something comes up in the manga itself that contradicts Yamato explicitly stating that they 'became a man' then I think we should stick with the current gender-neutral terminology approach. The Vivre Cards are not flawless. Let's not try to force any fan-theories like 'Kaido always wanted a son instead'. Damage3245 (talk) 16:06, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

"The Vivre Cards are not flawless" and that argument makes no sense either. Just because the Vivre Cards have made one or two mistakes concerning events that happened YEARS ago, suddenly it means are all completely unreliable even when it comes to very recent events? If the Vivre cards (still the best info we have, btw) are that unreliable, then why not remove all Bounties given by them, or all DF images? Timjer (talk) 16:08, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Timjer; the Vivre Cards are supplemental information. In my books, the manga still takes highest priority. Now, the Vivre Card can be good for something that hasn't been revealed yet in the manga such as King's bounty or the appearance of a Devil Fruit we haven't seen but for something that has already happened in the manga; Yamato declaring themselves to be a man and everyone who knows Yamato treating them as male, then that takes a higher priority to me. I'm aware this isn't straightforward though, which is why I prefer the current gender-neutral terminology being used on the wiki. What harm is there from that approach? Damage3245 (talk) 16:12, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

There's also the argument that she said she "became a man" figuratively. Like, she didn't literally become a man. Either way, the Vivre Card's information doesn't "contradict" anything. And I never said I was "forcing a fan-theory", just providing a theory that's more likely than the other theory (the theory of "Kaido respects his child"). Also, the "harm" with the current approach is that, ironically, it doesn't respect her gender identity if she's a woman. Why use gender-neutral pronouns when she's plainly a woman? The Pope 16:14, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Damage; "the Vivre Cards are supplemental information. In my books, the manga still takes highest priority." I fully agree. Except there is no contradiction here. Yamato refers to herself as ODEN specifically. She is like Mulan, she impersonates a man (a specific figure in this case; she even refers to Momo as "my son"), she does not see herself as male. Huge difference, that's what the character arc and Vivre card are trying to say! Timjer (talk) 16:15, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Oh, just FYI, I noticed someone went and told the Staff Member who overruled us last time that there is an edit war going on on the Yamato page. An obvious lie, but expect the Overlords to come swooping in with banhammers soon. Timjer (talk) 16:20, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I think there's only three really relevant arguments right now: "My feelings supersede the Vivre Card's information", "The Vivre Card contradicts the manga", and "The Vivre Cards shouldn't be treated as official information".

The first argument is moot. Facts don't...uh...yeah, you get the rest. As for the second, also no. How you interpret her words are up to debate. But the manga keeps it ambiguous (hence why she was treated gender-neutral so long to begin with), so nothing is being contradicted. And for the last point, I'm pretty sure Vivre Card information comes from Oda himself? So that's also a noperino.

If you feel in your heart that Yamato is a man, you're welcome to believe that. But if Oda says she's a woman, then you've gotta respect the text. The Pope 16:21, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Timjer; if Yamato says in the manga that she is a woman, or identifies as a woman, or prefers to be called she/her... then I'll agree with you and give up on this topic myself but I don't think it's as simple as you're making it out to be. Hypothetical scenarios like 'If Oden was anything but a man, Yamato would identify as something different' doesn't help the topic in my opinion. And I haven't seen anyone argue that the Vivre Cards shouldn't be treated as official information @The Pope. Damage3245 (talk) 16:23, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Damage; if all it's as simple as what Yamato herself says, then why not change her page name to "Kozuki Oden" and list Momo as her biological son? After all, those too are things that Yamato outright said... Timjer (talk) 16:26, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Timjer; I consider there to be a slight difference between gender identity/personal pronouns and statements like "Momonosuke is Yamato's child". I know I probably can't convince you of this though so I'll just leave it as 'I prefer the current format of the profile'. If you don't, then contact Fandom to get it resolved. Damage3245 (talk) 16:29, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Damage; You know what would convince me? Evidence and rational arguments. Just things like "I feel like it should be otherwise than what the official sources say" does not constitute evidence in my eyes. Timjer (talk) 16:34, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

"And I haven't seen anyone argue that the Vivre Cards shouldn't be treated as official information @The Pope."

Okay, so she's a woman. Glad we're in agreement and worked this out. A-duh, a-duh, a-that's all folks. The Pope 16:38, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Timjer; that has already been provided to you by DewClamChum. Dismissing it as other people's feelings is not strong argument at all and I doubt you'll be able to convince Fandom with that, so good luck. Damage3245 (talk) 16:42, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Damage; What is there to convince them with? Official materials, word from the author himself had to outright come out and spell it out for us. I simply do not see why we should distrust what the author himself says about his own work. Timjer (talk) 16:47, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

You ask for evidence and rational arguments and when I provide them you completely ignore them. Yamato states "my other name is Yamato", which implies that his identity as Yamato and his identity as Oden are separate. So you would expect then, if Yamato is a woman, to call himself a woman while referring to himself as Yamato, but that isn't the case. Yamato calls himself a man while referring to himself only as Yamato when he introduces himself to Luffy. He does not mention Oden. He calls himself Yamato, Kaido's son. This is not him doing his Oden cosplay. This is not identifying as Oden, this is identifying as a man. So can you explain how this example isn't a clear case of Yamato identifying as a man in the manga? And then explain how the Vivre Card doesn't contradict this by referring to him as a woman? All you seem to be able to say is that "Yamato doesn't identify as a man, Yamato identifies as Oden", even though I have removed Oden from the equation using Yamato's own words. DewClamChum (talk) 17:06, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Also, again, you keep saying this is from the author himself. But Oda did not write the databook. We have no way of verifying which information Oda provided himself. Vivre Cards are canon unless they contradict the manga. I think I've explained a solid example of how the Vivre Card is contradicting the manga, so please explain why I'm wrong. DewClamChum (talk) 17:08, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@DewClamChum; you and Damage seem to be the only ones here utterly obsessed with classifying Yamato as a man. And honestly, I don't friggin' care which arguments you have anymore. Official sources state that Yamato is female, end of story. We don't get to cherry-pick which parts of the Vivre cards are canon and which aren't. Timjer (talk) 17:14, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

...I already did explain how the two don't "contradict" each other.. We're going in circles. Also she called herself "Kaido's son" while she was still masked, if she said "Kaido's daughter" then the reveal wouldn't have had the punch it had. The Pope 17:17, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Responding to the stuff you said specifically:
 * "she called herself "Kaido's son" while she was still masked, if she said "Kaido's daughter" then the reveal wouldn't have had the punch it had": Him referring to himself as Kaido’s son in that scene wasn’t necessary. He easily could’ve said “Kaido is my father”, or something similar. We were already being led to believe that Yamato was a man before that scene. If it was simply for the sake of the twist, it was redundant. It’s an explicit example of Yamato referring to himself as a man completely independent of Oden, and I’d really like an explanation for why that’s invalid.
 * "She's an Oden cosplayer.": Yes, that’s true. But that has nothing to do with his gender identity outside of the cosplay.
 * "just because she dressed like and pretended to be a man, that didn't make her a man at heart.": Of course, inherently, that’s true. But he demonstrates that he does identify as a man outside of his cosplay, so this is a moot point.
 * "which is more prominent, her gender identity or her desire to be like Oden? If Oden was a woman, do you still think Yamato would be acting like a man? No. She'd be acting exactly like Oden was.": I agree. Yamato identifies as a man because he identifies as Oden. But that doesn’t change the fact that Yamato DOES genuinely identify as a man, independent of his Oden identity. If someone identifies as a man, you’d generally use male pronouns for that person.
 * On the Kaido thing, I’m not saying that Kaido is progressive or that he respects Yamato, because I don’t think this is a political issue within the manga. Yamato simply calls himself a man so it seems that Kaido just follows suit. Any other explanation is completely unfounded speculation.
 * "if Oda says she's a woman, then you've gotta respect the text.": Oda has had the characters in the manga say the opposite, and he doesn’t write the Vivre Cards. The Vivre Cards are official sources, but so is the manga. The manga trumps databooks. DewClamChum (talk) 17:50, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

If Oda not writing the Vivre Cards makes them automatically invalid, then why believe anything they say!? Seriously, make sense for once. Oda may not have directly written them, but I doubt anyone can put stuff into them without consulting with Oda first. And if Oda considers them official, then so should we. Timjer (talk) 17:55, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

That's nice that you feel that way. You're still outnumbered. And you can try to convince us all you want that Yamato identifies as male. That doesn't change what's in the vivre card. You want to convince Oda and his editing staff, give 'em a call and try to change his mind. Until then, the vivre card says she's female, so she's female. We don't pick and choose what vivre card information to utilize. The Pope 17:57, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

And once again, it's not even just the vivre card but the official twitter of Oda's staff for god's sake. This is getting silly, honestly. Karama20 (talk) 18:50, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

At this point, I'm pretty sure most of us are at a consensus on updating Yamato's pronouns (vote's something like 8 to 3 last I checked). We're just waiting on Kaido King of the Beasts to slam the gavel. The Pope 18:52, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

It's pretty hypocrital to claim that the Vivre Card contradicts the manga when it doesn't yet support Vivi being listed as a Straw Hat when it does contrdict the manga. SeaTerror (talk) 20:42, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Caught wind of this info coming out after being embroiled in the fallout of the last discussion of Yamato's gender last year, so here's my two cents on the matter: Timjer and The Pope have it right. This new Vivre Card is the first official material to explicitly state Yamato's gender for us after all the vagaries from the manga, and from all I've seen over its publication history, it's pretty darn trustworthy/reliable in terms of accuracy of information presented. As also pointed out above, this wiki has readily used its info (bounties, character stats, etc.) on so many other articles across the wiki (akin to the Official Character Books SOULs, MASKED, and UNMASKED for the Bleach Wiki) with a few exceptions for explicit contradictions with the source material, coming prior or after - if, in a future chapter or statement from Oda himself, Yamato was stated to be a trans man, then you'd have more than enough cause to outline the article to reflect that as the most recent and likely final stance on the matter. However, as of right now the Vivre Card is not only the most recent official "ruling" on this subject, but also corroborated by another official outlet, namely the Twitter account, and outweighs people's interpretations of the manga source material that seems hell-bent on being as non-explicit as possible about this by a hefty amount. The right thing to do is either change the article to she/her stuff or go with Karama's suggestion above; I'm personally in favor of the former, but either option is far more accurate than this push for fake transmasc rep.--Xilinoc (talk) 21:54, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I looked at the pics for her vivre card and have to admit it does feel weird. It lists her Devil fruit as blank (something already given in the main story) but spoils her title onihime which is supposedly something we are going to learn in chapter 1024.Revolution:air Raid (talk) 22:38, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Not to spurn on the discussion again, but I just wanted to link a Japanese interview that touches on how Oda supervises, and if necessary corrects, every Vivre Card personally. Here is the corresponding section translated. There is also a page on one-piece.com wholly dedicated to revising any mistakes that did occur on past cards, so I'd say their reliability does not warrant being called into question by us. Karama20 (talk) 13:18, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

So...this happening, or what? The Pope 00:40, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Clear majority to follow Vivre Card and consider Yamato as female. I am going to keep this page locked for at least a few more days in the hope that the controversy in other areas of the internet will abate, but feel free to make changes to other pages that refer to Yamato. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 03:58, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Understandable.

In the meantime, can you update Yamato's gender in the main article while it remains locked? The Pope 04:33, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

New Info
Can someone please add her blood type and that she's a user of both Armament and Observation Haki. The page is locked. Please n thanks.

Seastone handcuffs
Can an admin update the Yamato page for the new info about the seastone handcuffs Revolution:air Raid (talk) 22:06, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Pronouns (post-Vivre Card)
Hey everyone! My name is Mandy and I’m a Community Manager at Fandom. I assume you probably expected to hear from Zoe, but she has since moved on from Fandom, and I kindly ask that everyone remains respectful when mentioning her.

I know that the topic of Yamato’s gender has become a very controversial and heated discussion, not only here, but across social platforms, and I want to thank you all for being able to have a good faith discussion about this issue. Fandom Staff has been closely monitoring, researching, and engaging in these discussions ourselves, as it has been an important goal of ours to ensure that all people, including fictional ones, are able to have their identities respectfully and accurately reflected on our platform.

We will be releasing a more comprehensive framework to guide communities on how to properly document content relating to both fictional characters and real-life individuals who do not fit into outdated definitions of identity and gender, so look out for those soon. But in the meantime, we wanted to give our guidance on how to best handle this particular situation surrounding Yamato.

In the past, Fandom has encouraged you all to use either he/him or gender neutral pronouns when referring to Yamato, and the community instead opted to not use pronouns at all, which is perfectly fine. Of course since then, new information has been revealed as Yamato’s gender is now listed as female on the Vivre Card, causing understandable confusion for many. Taking that into account, we had a fluent Japanese speaker review this information, so with that being said, Fandom’s current stance is that Yamato should be referred to using gender neutral (they/them) pronouns. If you, as a community, opt once again to not use any pronouns when talking about Yamato, that is also acceptable.

The simple reasoning for this decision is that, in the presence of conflicting sources, it is best to go with the neutral option. We highly encourage you to add a section to Yamato’s article outlining any contradictions, citing the instances where the character is officially stated as female, while also acknowledging that Yamato has been referred to as male, not only by themselves, but also by others, which has led to the decision to use gender neutral pronouns. I believe this was also suggested by Karama above.

I think this whole debate (on the internet overall) has gotten very deep into whether or not Yamato is trans, drawing parallels to Kiku, questioning the intent of the author and the purpose of the character, etc., and of course it’s fine (and important) to have those discussions, but really the core focus here comes down to figuring out what is the best way to reference this character with the knowledge that we have currently. And given that Yamato has repeatedly been addressed as he/him, but the Vivre Card says female, the most appropriate and respectful terminology to use is they/them until things potentially become clearer in the future.

I also want to say that the intention of Fandom stepping in is not to take sides in a debate or stifle community consensus. The intention is to do right by this character that so many people know and love, and to prevent any possible misrepresentation of their identity until more details are revealed. I will leave it up to you all if you would prefer to revert the Yamato page back to no pronouns, or switch to they/them pronouns, as well as adjust the pronouns on any other articles where Yamato is mentioned. If you need any help doing so or have any questions about this topic, please let me know. Thank you! —idek mandy  21:03, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Conflicting...oi vey.

We've been over this. The Vivre Cards are overseen by Oda. They are final word, unless contradicted in the future. You could make the same argument of "Kaidou in the Vivre Card contradicts Kaido in the manga", but we go with Kaidou because it's the most recent information from a Vivre Card. The manga is, at most, ambiguous. If there's any contradiction, it's "female" vs "confusing". But again, the Vivre Cards are the final word until Oda elects to say otherwise. They/them should be used for non-binary/unclear gendered characters, but seeing how Yamato has been unquestionably been clarified as female (as opposed to Kiku, who had her trans status clearly pointed out in her Vivre Card), there should be no confusion. The Pope 21:10, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

I have great reservations with this recommendation and do not believe it is the right way to handle this issue.

From what I have seen across the internet, the people who believe Yamato is transgender are adamant that she be referred to as a man with he/him pronouns. This is understandable to a degree, as people who identify as men use those pronouns for the most part and tend to care greatly about being addressed with them especially if they were assigned something else at birth and run the risk of being misgendered. I personally have not seen anyone on the "Yamato is male" side be OK with using they/them pronouns for Yamato, nor have I seen much indication that those pronouns are preferable compared to she/her. Thus, I feel as though this proposed compromise, while based on good intentions, would attract the ire and opposition of BOTH the "Yamato is male" and "Yamato is female" sides, and I really don't think it will establish us as inclusive and trans-friendly.

I believe that, given the clearly presented info we have stating Yamato to be female, it is possible to write a section on Yamato's article tackling the remaining uncertainties and discrepancies in a way that neither attacks the transgender community nor forces us to nullify the consensus we came to. I obviously do not believe we can find a way to satisfy literally everyone, but this "compromise" would not have any better of an effect among both the "Yamato is male" side and the transgender community in general as far as I am concerned. I will be working to draft the aforementioned section regarding the references to Yamato's gender and hopefully it will prove to sufficiently tackle the issue on its own. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 06:52, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Just going to put this out there, the same Vivre Cards that confirmed that Yamato is female apparently also confirmed that Morley (we're still looking into it for certainty) IS in fact trans herself, despite the fact that the manga does not provide any proof for that either. Now, if we're not allowed to call Yamato by her designated gender (which is bigoted as well, IMO) according to official materials, then we shouldn't be allowed to call Morley by her designated gender either. After all, the manga never said that Morley is trans either. Either way, we're going to make the transcommunity very unhappy, so IMO, we should just stay with the facts as the author gave them. Timjer (talk) 07:43, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree that Kaido's solution (keep her genders as female but include a note in Trivia or somewhere about gender confusion/inconsistency) is the best possible route. Using "They/them" isn't actually a "neutral" path, but instead one that suggests that her gender is inconclusive. You're going to offend someone no matter what you do.

And let me say, while I'm a trans ally and am super happy with Kiku (and am fine with referring to Morley with female pronouns and I am all aboard the "Crocodile is secretly a trans man who Ivankov converted" train), I feel that certain well-meaning trans persons/allies are being a little overzealous and reaching to find representation and are (understandably) knee-jerky when that representation turns out to have been an assumption on their part. And I find it a little amusing that the irony of refusing to refer to Yamato by her actual gender in lieu of their preferred idea of her is lost on certain people. The Pope 08:02, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

"Using "They/them" isn't actually a "neutral" path, but instead one that suggests that her gender is inconclusive. You're going to offend someone no matter what you do." While I agree that it is impossible to avoid offending everybody at once, I don't agree with the interpretation of using They/Them to mean that gender is inconclusive. They/Them is a true neutral approach that doesn't carry any stigma or offense or insult. It is a gender-neutral term, and should be enough to satisfy people who don't want Yamato purely referred to as He/Him (despite that being how Yamato is addressed by the characters in the series) and people who don't want Yamato purely referred to as She/Her. You're right we can't satisfy everyone, but I believe we will satisfy the most people with this compromise. Damage3245 (talk) 09:46, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

"people who don't want Yamato purely referred to as She/Her" Well, quite frankly it doesn't matter what people want; I'd like Shirahoshi to manifest Conqueror's Haki (considering she's Poseidon) but that doesn't mean I'm in any position to say that she DOES have it. What only matters is what the author himself says. I honestly couldn't care less if Yamato is male or female; all I care about is what Oda himself outright states; and that is that Yamato is female (and that Morley is female as well, but anyway). ...That, and the fact that I've seen people say they're now "disappointed" in Oda for being "anti-trans", so forgive me for not wanting to capitulate to that hateful group. Timjer (talk) 10:05, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

And seriously, why is this such an issue? Can't we just accept Yamato for what she is? A utterly badass (biologically female badass) potential future Straw Hat member!? Why does it matter what gender Yamato considers herself to be? Or is it such an issue that a pure woman can fight on equal ground with a Yonko without being male in some way? Timjer (talk) 10:09, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

"Well, quite frankly it doesn't matter what people want". Not my intention exactly but this whole debate only exists because of different users on here wanting different things. I'm not suggesting capitulating to any particular group; I'm saying that the compromise is the better outcome as it is neutral and not leaning towards either of the major viewpoints here. And I seriously don't understand what your point is in trying to question "why is this such an issue." Nobody is saying here that Yamato can't be a pure woman or stand equal to a Yonko because of gender. That is a ridiculous Stramwan rhetoric; you're arguing against an opponent that doesn't even exist on this wiki or on this Talk page. We can't hold a proper discussion if you're going to mislabel our points as "You just don't want Yamato to be a woman." I'm 100% fine with Yamato being female... but that is a separate issue to what pronouns we use to address Yamato. Yamato, from all evidence in the text itself, prefers male pronouns and is referred to as Kaidou's son. I'm trying to balance that very obvious conclusion against other evidence such as Yamato being referred to in a introduction box as Kaidou's daughter and Yamato's gender being stated be female. Because there exists evidence on both sides, that is why I am in favor of the gender-neutral compromise. Can you understand it has nothing to do with any kind of bigotry or rejection of Yamato being a bad-ass female? Damage3245 (talk) 10:19, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

To clarify, Damage, I fully accept that you have no issue with Yamato being female and I didn't mean to Strawman you specifically. I'm just trying to understand why there are people who refuse to consider Yamato as anything other than male. Timjer (talk) 10:26, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

I think it is relatively obvious at this point how the Vivre Card of Yamato is not as another addition to conflicting sources but a conflict-resolving one. That being said, I agree with @Kaido King of the Beasts' suggestion, also. To keep Yamato's gender as female for now, and touch on the topic in another section. Karama20 (talk) 10:34, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Again, Oda, we know, supervises and even corrects every Vivre Card if necessary. Mistakes on the cards are also often quickly corrected.
 * The Vivre Cards have precedents of taking uncommon gender identities into consideration, including a character that, unlike Yamato, is unmistakably trans. Yamato, despite her prominence, not being given the same distinction but outright being called female should give us the confirmation we need, for now.
 * The official ONE PIECE twitter account has specified Yamato as a female character.

So was it a person fluent in Japanese such as somebody like Stephen? (the Viz translator) Or was it an actual Japanese person who would know the language more? SeaTerror (talk) 15:30, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

If the intention here is simply that we don't misgender Yamato, then I think it's a little misguided. I think the decision to use gender-neutral language due to the conflicting information is valid, but I don't think it's inherently disrespectful to the character to refer to Yamato as a woman (or a man) so long as that conclusion was reached in good faith using strong evidence. There's very good arguments for either side of the debate (the interview that Karama posted is basically inarguable), so I don't think it's a misrepresentation of Yamato's character to come to a conclusion based on those arguments. Even though I very strongly disagree with it, I think it's a valid conclusion at this point to refer to Yamato as a woman. The main reason I'm against this is that it's overruling the majority talk page decision and I don't like that. I would personally prefer we use gender-neutral pronouns over female pronouns, but if that wasn't the result of the talk page then I don't think it should be forced unless there's actually some measurable harm being done by us referring to Yamato as a woman, which I don't think there is. Also, as someone who's definitely spent more time thinking about this than I should have, there's nothing in this situation that's complicated enough that only a Japanese speaker could fully understand. We're all working with the same information, a native Japanese speaker isn't going to have any extra insight over the people on this talk page. DewClamChum (talk) 00:36, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Yeah. Japanese translators have clearly laid out the difference in the cards between the likes of Kiku (labeled with sex male but a "woman at heart" note) vs Yamato (labeled as female with no additional modifiers). There's no confusion. The Pope 04:07, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Well, this "recommendation" is much less forceful and notably more informed than the previous one dealt to this wiki a year ago on the same topic, but unfortunately it's still misguided and not fully understanding the situation. We've basically got an official statement on the matter after over a year of debate, confusion, and misinformation, one that conclusively resolves the discussion as it stands: for FANDOM to want this wiki to treat that as just one "side" of the debate to cater to, with opinions in the opposite camp having equal weight, is disingenuous to the nature of it being official material. I strongly encourage both Mandy and the larger team at FANDOM assigned to matters like this to review things further before handing down edicts and mandates, because the last thing any of us want is a repeat of the aforementioned debacle from a year ago.--Xilinoc (talk) 01:02, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi I don’t really hang out here, but I’ve worked with Xil and Tim got years and as the resident queer on Fandom, I feel like a should have a say. I feel that in Fandom’s desire to be more inclusive, we are watering down the complicated concept of gender. I feel that by favoring people’s headcanons over actual canon, we are misgendering Yamato and that fails to acknowledge non-binary and genderfluid people, both fictional and non-fictional. In my humble opinion, Yamato falls more under the genderfluid umbrella and I think using “She/They” pronouns would be a more appropriate compromise. Yamato unfortunately appears not to be trans, but they can still be part of the LBGTQA+ fandom without misgendering them. But with that, I’m peacing out 01:37,9/6/2021 01:37, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

@Lemursrules: There's nothing to compromise. Yamato is a woman. Simple as that. MezzoDragon (talk) 02:08, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Yamato's case seems more like a kid going "I wanna be Batman/Superman/insert character here" and taking it to an (exaggerated) extreme, rather than actually being transgender (eg. Kiku) RandomWithAName (talk) 04:22, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

So I have been lurking and seeing everyone opinions and sides, and I think I should add that there is a common(not that much common nowadays) anime troupe called Bokukko, which is literally a female character who use male pronouns, many characters like Yoruichi in Bleach, Haruka a.k.a. Sailor Uranus uses the "boku" pronoun, and many other characters that are female but use Japanese male pronouns. Now for Kaidou and the beast pirates referring Yamato has son and young master, for the beast pirates it's very easy to explain, they are Kaidou’s lackeys, they will listen to whatever their boss says, there is nothing else to add on. For Kaidou’s case, I believe it's more on the lines that Kaidou didn’t want Yamato has a girl, to succeed him as the Captain of the Beast Pirates, like The Rose of Versailles. In conclusion, at my seeing, Yamato is a tomboyish girl that idolizes Oden too much. Euas1 (talk) 14:00, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Good point, Euas1, I forgot the Bokukko trope exists, and Yoruichi is indeed a user of it. Seems to me that Yamato is a similar example. Timjer (talk) 14:10, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Hey all! I want to assure you that I have read every single message on this talk page, and I once again want to give a huge thanks to everyone here for having such a great open discussion. All of your perspectives have been taken into consideration when Fandom was reviewing this situation internally. I 100% hear and understand all of your concerns, but this is the decision that has been reached for now, and Fandom Staff is more than happy to re-evaluate this in the future when more is revealed.

The recommendation to use gender neutral pronouns falls in line with the guidelines I mentioned above that will be released soon, and in order to build those, we consulted with several gender identity experts. As well as in this circumstance, we spoke internally to someone who is fluent in Japanese language (and culture) - to answer SeaTerror’s question, as well as those who are familiar with One Piece and understand the nuances of this situation (including the viewpoints of all of you), in order to reach this informed conclusion. Also to address some concerns I’m seeing, I want to make it clear that we did not consult a Japanese speaker because we feel that they have more insight than anyone here. We did it because we wanted to do our due diligence and make sure we were making the most informed decision possible.

I understand that this decision will not please everyone, but I want to reiterate once again that, the intent of Fandom stepping in is not to cater to a specific side, or to please the masses, so to speak. We simply want to ensure that this character is being represented in a way that feels the most respectful. We are not rejecting the official source or outright denying that Yamato is female (or asking you to do so), hence why we have encouraged you all to cite that information in a section in the article, but due to the conflicting fact that the character has also been heavily referred to as he/him in the manga itself, the neutral they/them stance seems the most appropriate here, rather than she/her. It is very much possible for someone to be female, but not prefer she/her pronouns, and we want to be considerate of that fact. So as I said previously, I will leave it up to you all whether you would prefer to use they/them or opt for no pronouns at all as before. —idek mandy  19:16, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

First off, no. The manga does not refer to her with "he/him". That's entirely Viz. Oda had no part in that. So you can just sweep that argument out the window and never bring it up against, please and thanks.

Second, demanding that she be referred to with "they/them" does cater to a specific side, specifically the side that refuses to acknowledge the Vivre Cards as Oda's word and would rather stick to their own headcanon. Maybe some people who identify as female still prefer to use they/them pronouns. Maybe Yamato would if she spoke English. You don't know that. You can't force pronouns on her just because you think they may be more appropriate. The final word from Oda is that she is a woman, no ifs ands or buts about it. So if you still demand to use "they/them", guess what, you are catering to a specific side. The side that chooses to plug their ears and block out facts that they don't like out of a misguided desire to see inclusion while ironically denying a character of her own canonical gender identity. The Pope 19:33, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

You know what, forget it. I give up for now. Some people are just so obstinate they refuse to listen to any reason. I've said before that Oda could come out and outright say, without any doubt, that Yamato is female and some people would still refuse to accept that. But thing is, that comment was meant to be sarcastic. In no reality or fantasy did I ever truly believe people would be so divorced from reality. You know, the irony here is that saying "them" or "him", people are in fact calling Yamato by improper pronouns. Excactly the kind of thing transphobes are often accused of. And considering I have been called a transphobe for (correctly) argueing that Yamato is not male... Well, things like this make me lose faith in our current society... And as I said before, the Bokukko trope still exists. So then by that logic Big Mom should also be called "male". EDIT:Apologies if this sounds more venomous than intended. I'm just tired that this stupid argument has escalated so much and with such vitrol that I've seen.Timjer (talk) 19:46, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

OK so first, any person that's learning Japanese and knows Japanese, will tell you that pronouns are not used during normal conversations, because it's subtended who the speaker is referring to. Of course, they are expectations, but those are during formal conversations, which was never the case with one piece(one piece uses slang so imagine formal speech).

Second like I referred earlier, there is a very common troupe in anime and in Japanese culture of girls and women using “male pronouns” like boku, washi, ore to refer themselves, this is something THAT'S NOT VERY WELL TRANSLATED TO WEST CULTURE, and that's why there is a lot of confusion, miscommunication, plot holes, you name it

Third and last thing, it's time to accept the facts and accept the truth in the eyes, with all the information available so far, Yamato is a cisgender woman, nothing more, nothing less, saying that maybe she would prefer the usage of the pronouns “them/they” is a very subjective assumption, and as a wiki, you should only accept objective facts, nothing more, nothing less. The moment subjective opinions start to be inserted on the information, that information can no longer be trusted. If you don't believe this is correct, then I’m sorry, but this website is not a wiki, but a forum or a personal blog where everything matters.Euas1 (talk) 19:49, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Mandy, you've been talking a lot about how "we've made this decision", except anyone who's decided to come to that decision didn't bother to bring it up in here, aside from coming down to demand an edict from on high. Maybe they should actually talk in here instead of coming to a conclusion elsewhere, because the consensus here is to keep her female. Even some people who were adamantly in favor of her being gender neutral (or male) have come around to her being a woman. So at this point you're arguing to "make everyone happy", except nobody would be happy with using "they/them". Not anyone in this thread, not anyone who deems the Vivre Cards to be fact, not anyone who wants to see a cool badass female character who doesn't stick to gender norms, and not even the "Yamato's a man" crowd because you're still not displaying her gender as what they want. You're going to annoy some people no matter what you do, and this "middle of the road" tactic isn't a way to weasel out of it, it only makes things worse. The Pope 19:52, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Sadly, this seems just a case of "history repeats". Like last time, this wiki very carefully debates and considers all the evidence and with great effort reaches a consensus... Only for FANDOM Staff to swoop in and overrule everyone into choosing the middle road that, ironically, divides everyone~even more than before. Timjer (talk) 19:59, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

@idekmandy Again totally not my business, but that’s great that you have a Japanese speaker on your team, but did you guys actually consult a NB, trans, genderfluid person or rather any queer people at all? Not to sound rude, but does fandom have queer individuals in leadership roles, because I just find it weird that you highlight the Japanese part, but no mention of LBGTQA+ conversations at all. I feel like this is an issue with Fandom in general and goes beyond this particular character. If you want to be truly inclusive then actually put those people on your team. If it is indeed the case that this decision was made without any consult from members of the LBGTQA+ community, then please try harder. 20:57,9/6/2021 20:57, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Just a small update to the Article Section proposal, I've written a rough draft of it and am running it through the other admins. Once we've looked over it, it'll be posted for consideration on this talk page. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 22:05, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Just to be clear, Mandy, I know you're just passing a message along and this isn't aimed at you personally, but...what exactly is the point of making this a discussion if the end result of "hearing and understanding" all this completely solid and valid factual information from the wiki users is "well that's cool and all, but our decision is final, do it or else"? I would say it doesn't spark confidence or faith in the Staff team from ordinary users and mods/admins if y'all will put your foot down with no room for flexibility on something like this, but not on far more serious issues like on- and off-site harassment or power abuse, but that would require a history of confidence-building behavior from Staff to begin with. Just like on the update blogs filled with changes no one wanted or asked for, this has felt like desperately shouting at a brick wall in the vain hope that it'll move out of the way. I honestly don't even know why we bother engaging at this point.--Xilinoc (talk) 23:25, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Seeing how Kaido's still on our side on the matter, I think it's worth continuing to make a stink over this to make it loud and clear that we disagree firmly with their decision and will fight against it tooth and nail. The Pope 01:18, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Hello, everyone. As another admin on the wiki I'd like to say that I've be monitoring this discussion (even reading the archived first discussion too), but haven't been able to post until now. I'll say first off that I deeply appreciate Fandom staff being involved in this conversation, and I respect their guidance on this matter. I don't appreciate members of this community attacking or being hostile to Fandom staff for their involvement on this issue. I do not find that hostility necessary for this discussion to continue, or necessary for it to reach a solution. I agreed when staff told us based on current evidence that Gender-neutral (or no pronouns) was an appropriate response the first time. And I also appreciate their recomendation that we use gender-neutral pronouns this time. It is just a recomendation, and I think that nuance is lost on some of our community who continue to try to argue with Fandom Staff.

I am in agreement with Kaido that the best solution going forward is to officially state Yamato's gender as female, but include a comprehensive section on her article outlining the issue, the nuance, the reality of translation issues playing a part here, and all the viewpoints that people may have (minus the trans-phobic or anti-LGBTQ views). I believe that the Vivre Card ties our hands as to Yamato's gender as far as our mission as an encyclopedic entity, but we would be doing a great disservice to our readers not to put out information about the different views/conclusions that are out there on the internet outside of our pages. I also belive that it can be done in a way that is inclusive to the trans community. I am working with Kaido and the other admins on a draft that I hope we can show soon.

I think it's also a good idea that we continue to use gender-neutral pronouns (or no pronouns) to Yamato in articles. It doesn't have to be "well Yamato is female, so let's hunt down every single pronoun and change it to female!" The infobox can say female, and we can still use "they" and be correct in all cases. It's not all or nothing in this case, and using varied language is more inclusive and respectful.

Many of you weren't around when this community had long arguments about whether Sabo was dead or not, but this discussion reminds me of my view then: The wiki is a living document, this decision may be made now, but it can be easily changed as new information comes around. 03:26, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I've stated my piece there, if we're judging her female, use she/her. They/them is unnecessary, though using her name instead of reasonable enough.

The Fandom posts read more like firm edicts rather than a recommendation from my point of view, but if it really is nothing more than a recommendation, then fair enough. I (and most people here) disagree with the recommendation, and if it really is just a recommendation, then I'd hope they'd be understanding with whatever resolution we come to. The Pope 04:16, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

It seems inappropriate to use gender neutral pronouns now that Yamato has been Vivre Card confirmed as female.(GoldenOath20 (talk) 06:20, 7 September 2021 (UTC))

"It is just a recomendation, and I think that nuance is lost on some of our community who continue to try to argue with Fandom Staff."

"Fandom’s current stance is that Yamato should be referred to using gender neutral (they/them) pronouns. If you, as a community, opt once again to not use any pronouns when talking about Yamato, that is also acceptable."

That is a mandate, not a recommendation. SeaTerror (talk) 05:37, 8 September 2021 (UTC)