Talk:Sanji

Full name
So, with the release of chapter 812, we have at least one translation of Sanji's family name. Now, apart from waiting to see what other versions we get, we really need to discuss how we're using it on his page. I'm in favour of putting it in his introductory paragraph, in a form such as "Sanji is revealed to be a member of the Vimblabblahblah Family", but not full on change his name to Sanji Vimblahblahblah.

13:34, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

We renamed Law's article when his full name was revealed. Shouldn't we do the same thing here? 13:38, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

Once we get an accurate translation, change the name like we did for Law. However, we should just refer to him as "Sanji" everywhere else. 13:44, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

How do you know whether it's Vinsmoke Sanji or Sanji Vinsmoke? You could say it's 95% likely that it's the former, but not 100%. And how do you know that he hasn't abandoned his family (and hence family name) like Sabo did? 104.238.45.80 13:45, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

It's going to be a pain in the balls to get bots to change the links if we change the page name. And I did deliberately not phrase it as Sanji Vimblahblahblah or Vimblahblahblah for that reason.

13:47, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

Let's wait for the mangastream version then Keekian (talk) 13:49, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

We're doing that anyway, lol. Once we have more than one bad translation we can ignore them both and get one of our translators to work it out. Then we can actually discuss what to do with the page.

13:51, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

As Kaido said, if we can wait for Klobis or JOP or someone who is in an expert in Japanese to confirm the translation first, then sure. Keeikian, recently, mangastream has been making translation errors quite frequently. So it might not be wise to trust them. Lelouch Di  Britannia  13:52, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

I'm ok to move the page to the full name for consistency, no matter how ugly it would seem we don't just name pages with ones "we like". However I would wait to understand the circumstances of his family to be explained because it could be very well a case lik Cutty Flam where Sanjy said "screw that family ain't one of them". In that case I think it would be acceptable to leave it as "Sanji".

@Keekian: In fact, we only use their scanlation because Mangapanda's works of art are pretty obvious.

It's definitely Vinsmoke (ヴィンスモーク, Vinsumōku). Oh and it's his family name, Capone says Vinsmoke Family and Charlotte Family. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:46, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

Good work, but if it's all the same we're going to wait for a translator we know to doublecheck this.

14:48, January 14, 2016 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. ^_^ • Seelentau 愛 議 14:51, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

Changing the links isn't entirely necessary if we move the page. 15:14, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

Personally, I'd recommend simply waiting for the next chapter to be doubly sure. But in any case, nobody seems to be listening to the requests not to edit that into the page; might I recommend locking it until this discussion finishes? The Dreamer (talk) 15:57, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

Recommend all you want, the only reason it isn't is because we haven't had an admin online yet to deal with it.

16:04, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

I've semi-protected editing and fully-protected moving.

Jopie: "It's probably Vinsmoke. (ヴィンスモーク)" If we're agreeing to move it to his full name (which is most likely Vinsmoke Sanji) I think we have enough evidence. 16:52, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

Ok, we have a name. Now to discuss what we're putting it as.

17:08, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

Hold off on adding anything until we know more. We don't know if this is another Cutty Flam case where Sanji threw away his family name, or a case similar to Law's where he chose to conceal it. 18:01, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

We'll have to move it for consistency. If we don't then we can just put it in the introduction and infobox. Either way it's best to wait for more information. Also a bot is most definitely not needed if the name is changed. Redirects exist for a reason. SeaTerror (talk) 19:13, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

(Effing edit conflict) We'd be doing Riku Viola if we go for Vinsomke Sanji. So unless we're ready to take that plunge (again), then Sanji stays as Sanji for now. 19:16, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it's pretty obvious that we can't change Sanji's name until he's actually called Vinsmoke Sanji by a character. 19:21, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

Then we have to move Law's page back to just Trafalgar Law, Yata. SeaTerror (talk) 19:41, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

But Law did refer to himself as Trafalgar D. Water Law once. Sanji just needs something similar to happen, just once. KingCannon (talk) 19:53, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

I kind of take back what I said earlier. If we move Sanji to "Vinsmoke Sanji" cause he's part of the Vinsmoke Family then we have to move Viola to Riku Viola and Pudding to Charlotte Pudding. 20:15, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

I'm with Ryu on this. We should wait to hear his full name before we make any mention of "Vinsmoke Sanji" or "Sanji Vinsmoke". We have a chapter next week, right? Let's not rush it.

Regarding the eventual rename, we don't have to change the links. We had Forum:Eliminating the Pipe Linking Rule for a reason, guys. 20:21, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

I don't think there's ever been a single character in One Piece that has the last name follow the first. It's always [Last name] [First name] which would make him Vinsmoke Sanji --Mandon (talk) 01:26, January 15, 2016 (UTC)

Kelly Funk and Bobby Funk. Last name follows first. In any case, I support holding off on edits to Sanji's full name at least until next week. As others have said, we don't know if this is a case of discarding a name or concealing it. MizuakiYume (talk) 01:35, January 15, 2016 (UTC)

Neither of those scenarios would be relevant. Remember that we renamed Trafalgar Law's page to Trafalgar D. Water Law despite the fact that he both discarded and concealed that name. --Mandon (talk) 02:23, January 15, 2016 (UTC)

Except that he never discarded or actively concealed his middle name and D. initial - he didn't know the significance of D. as a child and willingly spoke his full name to Baby 5 and Buffalo, and as an adult freely revealed the fact that he had D. in his name to both Doflamingo and Sengoku. Different scenario here.--Xilinoc (talk) 02:54, January 15, 2016 (UTC)

I think it is closer to the situation with Sabo where he didn't want anything to do with his family. He acted in a manner that his family tried to correct which he wasn't having. The cruise ship being attacked by pirates was his unintentional escape. There is also the possibility that he had thought they had all died due to the storm and that Zeff believed that the ship had sank. At that moment he decided to live life as a normal person instead of a noble.AryaVega (talk) 03:07, January 15, 2016 (UTC)

I say we wait. It will probably be only a few weeks at most until we get a correct, full name. Until then, anything we do (changing the page name or Sanji's name in the first sentence of the article) would be speculatory and jumping the gun. In past experiences, that kind of action has made us look bad as a community. 05:33, January 15, 2016 (UTC)

Alright, seems like we're in agreement on at least one thing: Wait. So let's wait until we get more to discuss this further. 18:47, January 16, 2016 (UTC)

In Mangastream's 813 release, Brook said "Vinsmoke? So that's Sanji's last name?" and in panda he said "Sanji's a Vinsmoke?" Dunno if that's enough evidence for anything, but I thought I'd leave it here. If a translator can translate what he said, that'd be great too. 22:14, January 21, 2016 (UTC)

No one's disputing that's his name, we're just holding off until we know more about Sanji's situation. We don't know if he's like Cutty Flam and threw away his name or if it's like a Trafalgar D. Water Law where he chose to keep his name hidden. 22:17, January 21, 2016 (UTC)

Chapter 826 & 837
Alright, now it appears that we have naming conventions for two members of the Vinsmoke family. I believe that the time for renaming has come. It's just a question of if mangastream did the classic localization thing and made it "Yonji Vinsmoke" instead of "Vinsmoke Yonji". 17:01, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

Easy solution, wait for the raw.

17:03, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

I'm still against renaming because Sanji's never been referred to as Vinsmoke Sanji - I would prefer to get his full name, and see whether or not he has cast it aside. We don't have Riku Viola or Riku Rebecca, and it would seem a bit risky to give a kind of speculatory name to one of our biggest pages Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 17:40, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

I thought the whole point of waiting was to find out about the circumstances he left his family and we still don't know them. In particular, we have to understand if it's a "Franky case", where he casted out his name, or a "Law case", where he simply hid it. The latter is starting to become the most likely scenario, but still, if we are willingly to make that assumption then shouldn't have we renamed it already?

I agree with Levi, that was the reason we didn't do it earlier. 21:27, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

Also, shoud we add in his intro page that he is a prince or at least a former prince since it was said that the Vinsmokes are still considered royalty, or do yall prefer to wait to hear more about his situation? Ddog892 (talk) 00:50, May 20, 2016 (UTC)

We'll wait it out some more then. 14:32, May 31, 2016 (UTC)

Cracker called him "Vinsmoke Sanji". Chapter 837 p. 15. Rhavkin (talk) 11:28, August 25, 2016 (UTC)

He called him like that only because he is the link of the union of Charlotte Family and Vinsmoe Family. If Sanji discarded his name then i donth think Cracker's words count much. Dinosel (talk) 11:32, August 25, 2016 (UTC)

All I know is that some people said in this discussion that we should wait until someone called him by that name, and now someone did. Beside, a couple of chapters ago Sanji said he agreed to go with Bege because he hoped his family changed, so he does consider himself part of the Vinsmoke Family but he's just not happy about it. Rhavkin (talk) 13:03, August 25, 2016 (UTC)

I don't think he really considers himself a part of the family, he just acknowledges that they're blood. Anyway, I think it should stay as just Sanji until he himself acknowledges "Vinsmoke" as his last name. I mean, It would make sense if we changed it to "Vinsmoke Sanji", but the problem is that we don't want to update ALL the pages with his name on it only to have to change it back if he confirms that's he's discarded it later. Mhj0808 (talk) 14:45, August 25, 2016 (UTC)

What you think is irrelevant and speculation. Sanji has called them his family. We know his name is Vinsmoke Sanji. Waiting for an opportunity for him to call HIMSELF Vinsmoke Sanji is kind of unreasonable. I mean honestly, do you really expect that to ever happen? We call Trafalgar Law "Trafalgar D. Water Law" even though there's no actual proof he still considers that to be his name. (actually, there's more evidence that he doesn't.) This is no different. Change the name. --Mandon (talk) 17:06, August 25, 2016 (UTC)

Let's move Franky to Cutty Flam too then. SeaTerror (talk) 17:13, August 25, 2016 (UTC)

Mhj hit the nail on the head. 17:20, August 25, 2016 (UTC)

It was decided in this discussion earlier that if someone called him Vinsmoke Sanji then we would rename the page. Cracker did so in 837. Why backtrack now, just because you don't want to update pages with his name on it? We did the same thing with renaming the Dressrosa Saga. MavikVCT (talk) 23:47, August 25, 2016 (UTC)

Spandam called Franky Cutty Flam too. Also don't lie. The other discussion said we wait until we got further information. SeaTerror (talk) 00:05, August 26, 2016 (UTC)

The thing about Law saying "Trafalgar D. Water Law" is that he never said he didn't go by that name Meshack (talk) 01:29, August 26, 2016 (UTC)

Well you're just bold-faced lying Mandon, because Law said himself what his full name was- he never "discarded" his name at all, and he clarified that he was simply hiding it; so of course we immediately changed his name. Hell, Law told Doflamingo to his face that "I am a D" in present day, so you're the one who's argument is irrelevant. Franky also accepted his new name and calls himself that. But Sanji is different. What we DO KNOW is that he's disowned his family and wants nothing to do with them, while conversely, we DON'T know if he still considers "Vinsmoke" to be a part of his name. At this point, the only people that call him "Vinsmoke Sanji" is the Charlotte family because, presumably, they're unaware of how severed Sanji's relationship with his family is.Mhj0808 (talk) 01:50, August 26, 2016 (UTC)

And let me clarify, I'm not against renaming the page, I'm just more for keeping it as "Sanji". Besides, I don't have 300 edits under my belt so I can't vote anyway, I'm just stating my case for the higher ups to listen to. Mhj0808 (talk) 01:55, August 26, 2016 (UTC)

I would definitely vote Vinsmoke Sanji if Sanji says he's a Vinsmoke Meshack (talk) 02:53, August 26, 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, my memory was a bit fuzzy Mhj. I wasn't lying. In any case, I think it's appropriate to call him Vinsmoke Sanji at this point. If we start withholding character's full names until they outright declare themselves by their full names, then that same framework could be feasibly applied to many other characters besides Sanji.

The precedent people seem to be going with is Franky, however in Sanji's case - it's a very different situation. He isn't using a new name - he simply withholded his surname. Now we know what his surname is, so we should add it. He might never outright call himself a Vinsmoke. --Mandon (talk) 03:37, August 26, 2016 (UTC)

The way Sanji has bashed his family, I doubt he considers himself part of it. Adding Vinsmoke for the sake of formalities would be silly. If Sanji doesn't want to go by Vinsmoke, then we don't put him as such. Ace threw away Gol, and Sanji threw away Vinsmoke. 05:16, August 26, 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Ace up until this point. It's much more comparable to that than Franky or Law. Both Ace and Sanji despised their blood ties and discarded their father's name. If Sengoku had called him "Gol D. Ace" would it really have warranted moving his page? A taunting antagonist doesn't really count as a source. 12:00, August 26, 2016 (UTC)

Why should a characters opinion on their family way in on what we should call this article? Or should we remove the D in Monkey D Luffy since he's shown no opinion or interest in it? It made sense to not change Ace and Franky's articles since it would make it hard on new OP readers looking for that content, but there's no downside to changing this article to it's correct title as with Law's. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 12:30, August 26, 2016 (UTC)

Do we have a copy of the raw for this? If it's Vinsmoke Sanji or Sanji Vinsmoke could be entirely how MS have translated it here. Let's get one of our translators to check it.

12:47, August 26, 2016 (UTC)

What you doubt is irrelevant, DP. Sanji has dismissed his family, not his name. The problem with comparing this situation to Ace, which goes back to what I said about Franky - is that Ace CHANGED his name. If we had never, ever heard his full name before, and Sengoku called him Gol D. Ace, I'd recommend we change the name of the article then too.

The issue I have with deciding this based on Sanji calling himself Vinsmoke is that it might never happen. Until Sanji outright condemns the name or gives someone crap for calling him Vinsmoke, we should rename the article - because until proven otherwise, that's his given name. --Mandon (talk) 16:37, August 26, 2016 (UTC)

Wasn't it said in an SBS section years ago that Nami, Usopp, and Sanji don't have surnames? That would be a source for Sanji having discarded Vinsmoke. 17:44, August 26, 2016 (UTC)

Someone mentioned Luffy and Luffy is not a good comparison for any of this. Luffy always, since the very beginning, called himself Monkey D. Luffy. Luffy never disregarded his name and he doesn't know his father nor mother. Someone also mentioned Ace and that's a better example. Ace did not like his name Gol D. because of his father so he used his mother's name. We should wait until Sanji accepts Vinsmoke as his name Meshack (talk) 17:52, August 26, 2016 (UTC)

Sanji condemns his family, and therefore the name, since that's the thing that ties them together. Name and family are synonymous here. Why keep one and throw away the other? If Sanji doesn't want to go by Vinsmoke, then we don't call him Vinsmoke Sanji. Plain and simple. 18:59, August 26, 2016 (UTC)

Doflamingo didn't throw away his family name and you can't say he didn't hate his family. Even Rosinante didn't throw away his name despite what Doffy changed it into. Rhavkin (talk) 19:16, August 26, 2016 (UTC)

Ace was born as "Gol D. Ace", but like Sanji, he hated the family he gained the surname from and changed it, and was thus introduced in the beginning as "Portgas D. Ace". While we don't have clear evidence that Sanji cast aside his name, he was introduced and has only been referred to until this chapter as just Sanji. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 20:22, August 26, 2016 (UTC)

Law was introduced (twice) simply as Trafalgar Law (Chapter 498 and 659) and Momonosuke was introduced (again, twice) without his family name (Chapter 685 and 696).

Now, there seem to be several past similarities between sanji and other characters:
 * Franky: changed his name (completely) to keep a secret.
 * Ace: changed his name to keep a secret.
 * Sabo: hid is name out of shame.
 * Momonosuke: hid his name to keep a secret.
 * Law: hid his name to keep a secret.
 * sevral secret identities: Baroque Works agents, Sogeking, Lucy(s), Ricky, toys...

Sanji, on the other hand, kept his family number+ji motifs, nonchalantly revealed his from north blue, basically freaked out when he couldn't be recognized by his bounty poster, and changed his hair style after the timeskip to be like the rest of his family. Rhavkin (talk) 21:33, August 26, 2016 (UTC)

Vinsmoke might be his birth name, but it's certainly not the name he likes to be referred to by. Sticking to just Sanji will be best 21:39, August 26, 2016 (UTC)

I agree, if he changed his name and refused to be referred by his old, full name, then he is just Sanji for now. 00:21, August 27, 2016 (UTC)

Wait, kind of off topic, but Sabo hid his name? I can only think of Sabo as the only name he's ever used. Well, except Lucy...

Anyway, this looks split fairly evenly. This is either going to take a poll or an executive policy from our admins. 03:34, August 27, 2016 (UTC)

Rhavkin, the evidence you're posing is circumstantial at best. A given name doesn't tell anything. A lot of people are from the North Blue. He freaked out because the poster looked nothing like him. And his hair style change was just part of his redesign. If you read the actual dialogue between Sanji and his family, you'll find that Sanji wants nothing to do with his family whatsoever. I honestly can't believe this is still being argued. Sanji has said repeatedly that he wants nothing to do with his family (and by extension his name) and is disgusted by them. He threw his name away to start a new life. Family and name are one and the same here. Read any of Sanji's lines from the last few chapters he's been in and you'll see this whole argument is a colossal waste of time. 05:05, August 27, 2016 (UTC)

The arguments towards keeping Sanji's article as is are conjecture based, at best. What matters here is whether or not Sanji has DISCARDED Vinsmoke as his given name, and no matter what you may say about how he feels about his family - there's no empirical evidence to suggest that he has. He may not call HIMSELF Vinsmoke Sanji, but until you have someone call him that to his face and have him freak out, or have him outright say, "That name is nothing to me now." or something along those lines, then there's absolutely no reason not to change the name of the article. What do Ace, Law, Franky and Momonosuke all have in common? They WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY tp change their names / withheld their names. We know they did - we had confirmation they did. We got no such confirmation with Sanji. --Mandon (talk) 05:44, August 27, 2016 (UTC)

And you're saying that because nothing was said outright that your argument holds water? Now who's being conjectural? The fact that he has acted the way he has proves he does not consider himself part of the family, name included. In Japanese culture, you don't denounce your family and keep your name. It goes out with the family. Name and family are one and the same in this case, you can't try to separate them. Sanji's behaviors and actions more than prove he wants nothing to do with his family or his name. 06:16, August 27, 2016 (UTC)

Bege and Brook referred to him as a Vinsmoke and he didn't reject the fact, and he had hope that they would change their way. Seem more like anger then hate. Rhavkin (talk) 07:23, August 27, 2016 (UTC)

I think you guys are tying "changing the name" with the state of mind of a character. It's not. Even after all this time, no matter how bad the relationship between Sanji and his family might be, until he says "don't call me vinsmoke", which is surprising he did not say it once yet, I don't think it matters anyway. I can run off my family and don't recognize it as my own anymore, but it won't be the same as discarding my name. I could very well decide to found my own family to give a new meaning to my name. About the name we should act as a government office: if Sanji would go to a government office and explained his situation, they would reply "you are registered as Sanji Vinsmoke in our database, if you want to change your name go to this office and present your request". That's should be our mindset as well. Cold bureaucracy.

While I agree with 90% of what you said, Levi - this is still One Piece.. I don't think government data should matter all that much to us in the context of the series. Sanji is still a pirate - if he were to denounce his name, he shouldn't be called it in the article. By your logic we'd need to rename Ace and Franky to Gol D. Ace and Cutty Flam.

That said, Sanji has not denounced his name, and has been given plenty of opportunity too. That also being said, we're getting nowhere arguing about it - so let's just do a poll and settle it once and for all. --Mandon (talk) 16:34, August 27, 2016 (UTC)

I think a poll is redundant. Up til May the discussion was held because A. nobody referred to him as "Vinsmoke Sanji", and B. we don't know the reason he left the family. Both have been answered A. Chapter 837; and B. Chapter 833.

Now people are saying "he said he isn't part of the family" and as Mandon said "Sanji has not denounced his name, and has been given plenty of opportunity too". It seems to me that the only objection left is "but we didn't do it for (enter character name here)" and for me it is not a valid argument. Rhavkin (talk) 14:54, August 29, 2016 (UTC)

Yeah but the consensus is still divided. If there were a clear majority, that would be grounds to change it, but there isn't. We need a poll. --Mandon (talk) 15:48, August 29, 2016 (UTC)

I simply do not have the time to make a poll for this like you requested, Mandon. However, I think a poll will give people a false sense of security and cause people to argue if we do (or do not!) get more evidence in the future. Any decision that comes from a poll will seem more binding and cause people to argue that "we already decided in the poll!" if we need to discuss this again in the future. The better idea is to pick one of the names through discussion and re-discuss this issue at the end of the arc, or as more is heard on it. As for my opinion on the issue, I'm in 100% agreement with Levi. The only thing we know is that Sanji dislikes his family, and that is in no way a confirmation that he has discarded his name. The truly encyclopedic option is to rename to Vinsmoke Sanji. If we cannot claim on the article that Sanji has discarded his family name because it is speculation, then we cannot use that as our primary reason to leave the current pagename.

We should rename it, but for the love of god not redo any redirects or pipe links because there is a chance in the future that Sanji will disown his name, but that has yet to be shown in any capacity as of yet. 17:22, September 1, 2016 (UTC)

Why can't you people understand that family and name are the same thing here and that renaming anything will be a colossal waste of time? Telling his family to stick it sideways is the same as rejecting his name, because family=name. Look at his freaking actions and what he said on the ship. That should tell you that naming this page is a complete mistake. 17:26, September 1, 2016 (UTC)

Sanji said to Reiju "I made it crystal clear that I wanted nothing to do with any of you. We're no longer family." That means he severed all ties of association. Nothing to do with any of you would include his name. He threw away everything when he left. How is this so hard to see? 17:47, September 1, 2016 (UTC)

Oh, here's another that people conveniently missed. "Get out of my sight old man. I refuse to be affiliated with you in any way." Even Judge refuses to acknowledge him as his own son. "I still and never will see a fool like you as a son of mine... not in the slightest." Now we have disownership from both sides. Any more holes you want me to poke in this failure of an argument? 17:58, September 1, 2016 (UTC)

I'm with DP here. Just keep it as Sanji, we've noted countless time he is a Vinsmoke in the article and there's certainly going to be things happening in this arc regarding the situation. Keeping it as Sanji really doesn't hurt much. 18:04, September 1, 2016 (UTC)

I don't really get that logic. The surname is the most simple proof of a blood tie, not of a "good relationship". That's all. No matterr how they hate each other, it doesn't change the fact that's his family. Then answer this: how can Judge use Sanji for the marriage if he officially disown him? He cannot. All the bad blood between the two is just that. A sentiment. Because if it's turned into facts than this marriage would have no meaning.

Also in this chapter Cracker called Sanji "Vinsmoke Sanji", therefore between this, the invite and the fact that his family is using sanji for the marriage pretty much proves that everybody else recognize him as "Vinsmoke Sanji".

But the only thing that matters is whether or not Sanji recognizes himself as a Vinsmoke, which he clearly doesn't. 18:09, September 1, 2016 (UTC)