Forum:799/800 Changes

Alright, so this chapter was pretty cool, but there is a LOT of work that needs to be done after it, so I figured a forum was better to keep track of everything in a more general place. Here's a list of shit that needs to get done, as far as I can tell, but feel free to add/suggest more:

1) We should make a new tab for Straw Hat Pirates, "Straw Hat Pirates/Subordinates". I feel like we need to make a sharp distinction from "allies" and "subordinates".

2) We need to make a new category for Sub. crews. Should we also make a subcat. for individuals that are Subs.? Then there's the question of if Sub Crews is a subcat of Allies, or they both need a larger parent category.

3) Someone already made crew pages/categories for these new crews, but each page needs to be unstubbed. Some say things like "the crew strength is unknown" when we saw the entire crew fight.

4) We need a bunch of new Portrait galleries for each crew, and then they need to be compiled into a larger portrait gallery for use on the SHP/Subordinates page. We will also need color schemes for each sub crew.

And if someone tells me that "it's unconfirmed that they're actually subordinates", I'll tell them to go do explicit things to themselves. There's no way that Luffy's gonna say no. Oda would not have gone to all the effort to introduce these characters, seemingly waste time on them all arc long, and then go through more effort to reintroduce them with numbers and shit if they weren't gonna be subordinate crews. We're not idiots, we know what's gonna happen, let's take advantage of the opportunity and actually get the work done while we have two weeks to do it.

I don't think much of this needs discussion, but the work does need to get done. People can volunteer to just do shit, and as long as they post here that they finished things, we should be able to handle this in an organized way. 13:34, September 3, 2015 (UTC)

Discussion
If Luffy dismisses the idea of subordinates, I don't see why using "allies" would be a bad idea. A new stub cat isn't needed. I know we've all seen the only known the member of *insert crew*, but we really know there strength as a crew? 13:46, September 3, 2015 (UTC)

So what sort of explicit things are we talking here?

But in all seriousness, I agree with most of this. One point I'd make - the crew strength thing. Yes, in one case we've seen all the crew members fight. In all the others, we've seen their leaders and prominent members fight, and have no idea about the rank and file crew members.

I'll get to work unstubbing when I can, but I'll PM you to go over this.

13:48, September 3, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but if and only if Luffy agrees with having it. So count two weeks more.


 * I see no reason to wait. We can make a note on the pages that it hasn't been confirmed by Luffy, but I don't see why we can't do the work to something we know will be confirmed eventually now. 13:52, September 3, 2015 (UTC)


 * Look, even if people rage that it's not confirmed yet, we can make the pages in sandboxes.


 * 13:54, September 3, 2015 (UTC)

I'd support the creation of sandboxes for now and wait to create the actual pages until the next chapter. 13:59, September 3, 2015 (UTC)

I also agree with the idea of creating sandboxes for such purposes as we have always held up our policy of no speculation no matter which situation. Unconfirmed is still unconfirmed, no matter how obvious. A break of two weeks won't make a difference. So sanboxes are the solution.

Use Category:Draft Pages, and the true pagenames. We just won't add them to things like the SH tabs. I want to make sure people feel free to edit them still, and aren't scared to edit because their in someone's personal sandbox. 14:03, September 3, 2015 (UTC)

That sounds good, as long as there are no links to the draft pages until they're confirmed.

14:07, September 3, 2015 (UTC)

Also agreed with Nova  15:01, September 3, 2015 (UTC)

There's also the chance he won't even want them as allies, but just as friends (yes, Luffy's friendzoning 5640 people at once, the heartbreaker), like he does with everyone else he meets. If that happens, then what's the point? 17:41, September 3, 2015 (UTC)

Well, if he friendzones them, they're still allies. It'd just mean he's not agreeing to direct control over all these pirates.

17:44, September 3, 2015 (UTC)

Friends can be allies too, can't they? I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same deal with Whitebeard, plus the ship is a little too small for a crew that size right? Justin Holland (talk) 17:48, September 3, 2015 (UTC)

We never saw Luffy's answer. Any edits that work under the assumption that they've joined would be speculation, which we don't allow here. You only have to wait 2 weeks to get answers. 18:45, September 3, 2015 (UTC)

Don't change anything until we get Luffy's answer. 19:21, September 3, 2015 (UTC)

You know, Luffy is pretty likely to just say no, so wait for his reply first. 21:56, September 3, 2015 (UTC)

Alright, we wait. 02:34, September 6, 2015 (UTC)

He said no, but they didn't. Still, it's fairly clear they're not subordinates, but allies.

09:54, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Alright, we have the confirmation, now can we make sure the work is done quickly and correctly? There are a lot of IPs and new users running around fucking it up. 14:26, September 16, 2015 (UTC)


 * To clarify further, Luffy himself may have not made it official, the narrator did. The Narrator is the best confirmation we could ever get. 14:51, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

The "Straw Hat Grand Fleet" has been officially formed, yes. But Luffy isn't officially the leader since he refused. Like Sai said, the're just gonna follow him on their own accord and Luffy has no responsibility towards them. Instead of the parent-child sake exchange that Barto suggested last chapter (apparently a yakuza term) it was just child/follower sake. Mangstream posted an explanation. So yeah, it's a one-sided thing. Make a page for the fleet but just have them on Straw Hat Pirates/Allies since they're not official subordinates. Don't put them on the Straw Hat portrait gallery. 15:11, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, sounds simple enough to understand.

15:18, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Kage. 15:19, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of whether they are allies or subordinates, the fleet should get its own page, considering its existence is an important development for several characters. KingCannon (talk) 15:26, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I said. 15:35, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

The development isn't that important. I would prefer the fleet didn't get it's own page or category since the whole thing was unofficial and it just be mentioned like it already is on Straw Hat Pirates/Allies. The members are still allies and that's all Luffy will view them as. 15:38, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

We have a page for XXX Gym Martial Arts Alliance but can't have a page about the actual Fleet in general? The page is needed. 15:49, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

I agree. Even if Luffy didn't agree, both the subordinate crews and the narrator used the term so we should make a separate page for it. They don't really belong in the main crew page since they're not a direct part of the Straw Hat Pirates, but they aren't exactly like the other allies since they swore to be his subordinates (even if Luffy disagreed). That differentiates them enough to warrant a separate page/category. 16:14, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

The group has an official name, so I don't see why it shouldn't have a page. The information doesn't require its own Straw Hat Pirates subpage, but it does need a page of its own.

This is not like the Straw Hat-Heart Alliance, which name so far is just conjectural. KingCannon (talk) 16:39, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Here's the thing: for Luffy, they are just his friends, but for the 7 leaders of The Straw Hat Grand Fleet, they have made an oath to serve under Luffy even if it costs them their lives. It's more complex than a mere alliance. It's more like an organization. They are gonna be working for Luffy, not with Luffy. Yes, it is official (for everyone except Luffy, but Luffy is an idiot anyway). People don't expect this wiki to have pages titled "Straw Hat-Heart Alliance" or "Kid-Hawkins-Apoo Alliance". That's silly. But people would expect this to have a "Straw Hat Grand Fleet" page, and would wonder why it has none, and wish it has one. It's significant and necessary. My 2-cents. Kolokolo2015 (talk) 16:42, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

The Grand Fleet is the mirror of the seven Shichibuikai (the most evident hint is Bartolomeo - Bartholomew). I think the Wikia need a page with the seven leaders with the proper link to their crews. The Straw hat/Allies Page need a radical rewrite...Clipens (talk) 17:07, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Throwing my hat in the ring, either make it its own page or its own tab. The Pope 18:10, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Can an admin copy the code for and then delete it; it's not even the actual name and the quality of it is an embarrassment to the Wiki. 20:49, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

No need to completely delete it. We could just rename it and fix the errors. 20:57, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

People expect the wiki to have a lot of pages we don't. An example would be the Heart & Straw Hat Alliance, but we don't. Just because people expect it doesn't mean we need it, just sayin. 21:02, September 16, 2015 (UTC)


 * The Straw Hat + Heart Alliance doesn't have an official name and we can't use conjectural titles. That's why it doesn't have a page. Every other alliance with an official name does (Saruyama Alliance, Buggy and Alvida Alliance, the XXX Gym Martial Arts Alliance...). This fleet is no different, as it has an official name. KingCannon (talk) 21:11, September 16, 2015 (UTC)


 * Who expects the wiki to have a "Heart-Straw Hat Alliance"? Definitely not smart people. KIngCannon couldn't have said it better. The Straw Hat Grand Fleet (If that's the official name) having a page is common sense. See, it's a legit massive organization with divisions, a sense of purpose, and a name/title/identity. Not having a page for this would be odd if you think about it. Kolokolo2015 (talk) 22:53, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Deleted the page for now due to the reasons mentioned by Kaido. This discussion should've been resolved before its creation anyway.

Any other changes shouldn't really be made yet either. 21:14, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Make a page. It exists (regardless of what Luffy thinks of it), it has a name, and Oda confirmed it's going to play a pivotal role in the future. It's too big to be relegated to an obscure subpage. 22:05, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

I vote that a page for the SH Grand Fleet be made, however, how about we add it to the Straw Hat Pirate tab? Or better yet, add the name of the fleet to the Straw Hat Pirate page which leads to a tab page for each division? Eddygarfield (talk) 22:16, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

No, because as I already explained, they're not official subordinates. 22:26, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

The pirates who came with the Whitebeard Pirates to Marineford weren't official subordinates, but they're on the Whitebeard Pirate page. Eddygarfield (talk) 22:38, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Wait, I've got a better idea. We still make a tab page for the SHGF, but we put the link for it on the ally page. Does that work? Eddygarfield (talk) 22:40, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

Oda put a lot of work into this Fleet and even went the extra mile to foreshadow them helping in a big "event". This isn't like the Franky Family or the Dressrossa citizens. I vote they get their own page. If you don't want them on the main SH page I'll accept it, but don't just write them into a small little corner of the wiki like they're nothing. {{Black Leg Sanji}Black Leg Sanji (talk) 22:49, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

I second that. Also, I think that each division should get its own tab. Eddygarfield (talk) 22:58, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

The Whitebeard Pirates subordinates were official as far as we know. And their fleet wasn't named so it can't get its own page in the first place. Anyway, the Straw Hat Grand Fleet "divisions" are literally just the different crews like Barto Club and Beautiful Pirates, all of which already have their own pages. And are you saying the Fleet should be a subpage yet have subpages itself? Doesn't make any sense.

Majority seems to support what I said and making the Fleet its own page, but let's wait til it's been at least 24 hours and then see if we can close this. 23:25, September 16, 2015 (UTC)

I'm not saying we make the article for the fleet a subpage. I actually feel that the fleet deserves it's own page, just with a link on the Straw Hat Pirates article and that we make it like the Straw Hats' character pages. And since there are already pages for each division already, I say we tab them all together. Eddygarfield (talk) 00:22, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

In the page Straw hat/Allies:

- Kinemon and Momonosuke should be splitted into two rows and Kanjuro should be added

- Bartolomeo should be into Barto Club group (because Gambia helped too offscreen)

- Sabo, Koala and Hach are an own group (and they saved some revolutionary/ex toy which helped too)

- Cavendish, Farul and Suleiman should be as Beautiful Pirates

- Abdullah, Jeet, Ideo and Blue Gilly as an own group

- Caesar Clown is a (forced) traveling companion --Clipens (talk) 05:08, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

"Today, 7 rouges declared themselves Straw Hat Luffy's underlings" - The Narrator (mangastream)

Luffy is not the authority on this matter or what is "official". I agree that it's one-sided, but I disagree wholeheartedly that it ins't official. The narrator has made it clear that despite Luffy's reservations, these underlings are a real thing, and they truly consider Luffy as their leader. They consider themselves as part of the SH organization, and so does the narrator; that's all I need.

I think the proper way to proceed article-wise is to make a page and have it as a subpage of the SHP article, and redirect "Straw Hat Grand Fleet" to it. As I keep stressing the narrator has made the distinction that this is a different kind of agreement from what normally happens. Any article that exists should stress that difference, and we get a more proper article from that. 05:12, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

As JustSomeDude stated, the Straw Hat Grand Fleet is a crucial story element that has been implemented into the story for future events. They are an important group that needs a better showcase than being put in the same little slot as the Usopp Pirates.

Unlike the majority of the SH allies, these guys are actually going to contribute to stuff and be helpful in the new world. I don't see the Franky Family, the Baratie chefs, or the Dugans showing up to fight Kaido or any other big threat. We have characters in the story and the narrator calling it the Straw Hat Grand Fleet so the name confirmation shouldn't be an issue. The only way I can see this being more confirmed is if Oda made an account on here and made the page himself.Black Leg Sanji (talk) 06:22, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

I think he just did. 06:45, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

They declared themselves Luffy's underlings, yes. But Luffy didn't accept, so it's not official. Luffy is the authority on this since he's the captain of the Straw Hat Pirates. And the narrator never claimed anything more than "they declared themselves Luffy's underlings", nothing about considering them part of the SH organization. Again, the formation of the "Straw Hat Grand Fleet" is official, but Luffy and the Straw Hats don't have any official ties to it. Which is why it shouldn't be a subpage of the Straw Hat Pirates, but its own page.

The "underlings" themselves stated that it's just them acting on their own and Luffy doesn't have any responsibility towards them. And again the whole sake thing. 07:27, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

Should make a page for it already, i think its pretty clear that everyone agrees. 12:22, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

Who do you trust more? The Narrator (Basically Oda), or Luffy, the character Oda writes to be funny weird and different?

Luffy's approval is not required for this group to attach themselves to the Straw Hats in an official capacity. Luffy and the other Straw Hats think it's weird, but they aren't going to fight the conviction of the 7 subordinates. I'm sure very soon in addition to the Narrator and the Fleet itself, the public and the marines will consider them officially part of the SH crew. 14:37, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

Again, the narrator never claimed anything more than "they declared themselves Luffy's underlings". And yes, Luffy's approval is needed. "Funny weird and different" doesn't remove his authority on matters concerning his crew. You're still ignoring Sai's statements and the whole point of the "underling's sake/vow". 14:58, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

Like Staw said, we should make a page now regardless of how it's classified. Everyone agrees that it needs a page somewhere and an admin could always move it after we decide. 15:00, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

I'm all for the underlings to have their own page. 15:10, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps we should have a poll?Black Leg Sanji (talk) 16:13, September 17, 2015 (UTC)


 * Second that and I in favor of them getting their own page.Justin Holland (talk) 17:28, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

There's no need for a poll when it's a clear majority for them getting their own page. 17:36, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

True. Well whatever is done is done. No matter how it's presented on the wikia, we have a SH fleet. I'm so giddy.Black Leg Sanji (talk) 17:43, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

So can we end this once and for all?: Are the SH Grand Fleet getting its own page or not? Justin Holland (talk) 17:53, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

Just reading through the whole thing, I don't think anyone is actually against the Grandfleet having it's own page. Them not having their own page just wouldn't make sense. I think the only discussion is how to link them back to the main Straw hat pirates page. I agree with the people who said that it shouldn't be a sub-page, but a page on its own, with links to it present in the Straw hat pirates page, possibly under allies, where I think it should be renamed allies/subordinates. Woohoot (talk) 23:19, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

We might as well make the page now since it's important and about two or three people have already made it and had it deleted. We can always rename it later once this forum's over. 01:01, September 18, 2015 (UTC)

The article if created as is would be too stubby. But since obviously Oda will keep adding on to it I guess it can be created. Maybe for now just subpage it then we can create it when there will be more information. SeaTerror (talk) 06:43, September 18, 2015 (UTC)

Just create the article, we will work on it and whatever needs to be changed about it will be discussed in its own talk page. 10:43, September 18, 2015 (UTC)

Seeing that everything seems to be clear, let the admins close this thread (for obvious reasons). I'm not going against it.

How's this? It's not perfect but if it's satisfactory we can move it to the mainspace; I believe Straw Hat Grand Fleet is the correct name.

But another question: Do we make the subordinate pirate crews a subpage of that page, like we did for Buggy and Alvida Alliance? 19:54, September 18, 2015 (UTC)

That looks fine for now. We probably should move the other groups to subpages of it since they're sub-groups of a larger group and probably won't be involved in the story outside of that in the future. 00:47, September 19, 2015 (UTC)

Also, I tried putting the gallery on the draft page since it's going to go there regardless of how we categorize the page itself, but for some reason it's displaying in the site navigation section even though the code says it's in the members section. Any idea why? 02:02, September 19, 2015 (UTC)

I think there are two problems: 1) What is Kinemon? A guest, a temporary member of SH, an ally... 2) Green Bit is the first official island of Straw hat's territory and all its inhabitants are allies of Straw hats. The tonta corps is a way to consider only the military forces.--Clipens (talk) 05:55, September 19, 2015 (UTC)

Seriously just make the page already. 13:09, September 19, 2015 (UTC)

Alright, clear majority. The page has been made. 00:03, September 20, 2015 (UTC)

Slightly different but still related to chapter 800 question. Are we just gonna accept that Luffy's bounty has been raised to 500 million? Several pages on the wiki has already been changed like it's totally official. People arguing about it else where are even saying 'the wiki says it's 500M' even though who knows if these people arguing for it changed it themselves on the wiki. For some reason, I'm quite annoyed with this because I'm pretty sure chapter 800 was hardly conclusive in claiming that the '500 million straw hat' refers to Luffy and not Usopp. Woohoot (talk) 01:29, September 21, 2015 (UTC)

IDK which one was more accurate, but the mangapanda translation had them specifically say "Straw Hat Luffy." 02:31, September 21, 2015 (UTC)

Well, Mangapanda is about as reliable as an actual panda typing random shit on the keyboard so... In any case, I'm bringing it up because it annoys me, and because I thought that people on this wiki were usually quite particular and against stating things as facts when it hasn't been properly confirmed. Considering how we've had several wars in the past over things that were more concrete than this, I'm surprised no one is doing anything about it yet especially with the fact that this concerns bounty, a topic which tends to get people carried away. Woohoot (talk) 03:47, September 21, 2015 (UTC)

The best way to figure it out is to find a raw and ask JOP what it actually says. No point in speculating when we have an actual Japanese speaker here. 03:59, September 21, 2015 (UTC)

Never use Mangapanda as a source.

Powermanga has released their chapter, and it's clearly referring to Luffy: http://read.powermanga.org/read/one_piece/en/0/800/page/7

208.44.247.130 04:08, September 21, 2015 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I just clicked your link for powermanga's translation, and it still sounds like it could be referring to Usopp. It says if you and your 500M bounty are there. Anyway, I would have posted a link to a raw here and asked JOP to have a look, except I can't find the raw anywhere. Do people have a standard place to find raw scans from? Woohoot (talk) 06:30, September 21, 2015 (UTC)

"You and your" refers to one person and that person's possessions.

If you rewrite it as "Straw Hat Luffy, if you and your 500 million bounty are there", it's the exact same and still makes sense.

208.44.247.130 19:05, September 21, 2015 (UTC)

What? No. He himself is the bounty. Why would you say 'If you and your 500 million bounty'? That's just weird. If you catch him, you get his bounty. It's not like he's carrying 500 million cash with him. If anything, saying "if you and your 500 million bounty" refers to the 500 million bounty as separate, indicating that it's more likely referring to Usopp, since Usopp belongs to the Straw hats.

Anyway, I'm not interested in arguing. If no one else is bothered by this blatant assumption being stated as fact on the wiki, so be it. Unless someone can find a raw scan to verify it. Woohoot (talk) 00:41, September 22, 2015 (UTC)

It sounds to me that you don't understand possessive English. "You and your" is a possessive way of writing the phrase. "You and your dog", "You and your hat", "You and your ____".

Please explain why it would logically be Usopp. Those pirates were not present for Doflamingo's announcement, and would not know about the 500 million bounty that Doflamingo put on his head. Nor would that matter, since Doflamingo has been defeated and couldn't pay even if he was going to in the first place.

The raw script states "５億の首！！！麦わらのルフィがいるなら

首をさし出せ！！！"

And Viz's chapter is out, and woah, it also states that it's Luffy's bounty!

http://imgur.com/LHPysBQ

12.52.185.178 00:53, September 22, 2015 (UTC)

Your examples are exactly my point about why using possessive speech for this statement is strange, because the bounty is not a possession. Luffy himself is the bounty. You and your hat, you and your dog are obviously fine, but you and your bounty, while grammatically sound, is kinda unnecessary in its usage. My point of it sounding like it would be referring to Usopp is precisely because of this separation. And there was no indication or confirmation that these pirates were not on Dressrossa during the events of Birdcage. They could have been the pirates negotiating in the underground port before Sugar was knocked out, causing all the chaos.

Anyway, talking any further about any of that is pointless now. If Viz has translated it that way, then that's good. That translation from Viz would definitely be irrefutable. If that's accurate, then I don't have any further case.

Thanks for finding the raw anyway. Woohoot (talk) 01:45, September 22, 2015 (UTC)