Forum:Inconsistencies Major Cleanup

There are two major inconsistencies within this entire Wikia that I must address and ask everyone to help resolve. There might have been other forums out there that went for these problems in the past, but I saw no change regardless, so I hope that this one will do the trick.

Using Macrons and Breves (ū and ō instead of ou and uu)
Now I know that we use uu and ou instead of the ū and ō, due to the difficulty in getting those in the first place. But, in the page names, some page use macrons, while others just uses an "u" to extend the vowel, while some just skip both the macron and the extension "u". Here's a (partial) list of such things: They should all follow the same flow, with either all macrons, all using u as extension, or ignore all such altogether (at least until the databooks come out and confirm).

Japanese vs. English Naming
Yes, we agreed to name the pages as the original Japanese, but some pages goes against that, they are in English despite having an original Japanese name. Here's a list of examples: Now I know, all Devil Fruits are in original Japanese, and Colors Trap is a direct English romanization, but for the rest, why not change everything one way to match up the consistency.

So Do Something
Please make some comments and eventually, we can vote. Yatanogarasu 23:19, January 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * I know with cat claws, there was no Japanese version ready to use, thus "Cat claws" the subbed name had to be used at the time. It also made for easier look up. Also, this is VERY early in the wikias history. Some things stayed just because no one raised the problem. I believe Peacock slashers was the same. We had to use SOMETHING, so english was the only way forward (at the time) and in many cases, translators just didn't supply us with the same odd Japanese notes they do now, or the raws didn't explain too much. Basically, since the wikia set up shop, the fandoms become a lot more nerdy and info ready then it used to be. Lol.


 * Its the same with the double uu or ou and so forth. Thats how things were done at the time, and I STILL prefer it because of the difficulty getting the special characters for the little "u"'s.


 * In cases like the fishmen, it was the intended translation we used because "Mermen" and "Fishmen" had this HUGE problem within the fandom, people once upon a time couldn't tell them apart. For the first 2 years of the wikias history we had to explain all sorts of problems like this. Then when "Fishmen Karate" was done it was made to match the name that we already had in use "Fishmen". We didn't really explain what we were doing, but some things were done for a reason. One-Winged Hawk 23:41, January 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, we had to deal with the early wikia curse left over from the 4Kids days, when some things transferred from wikipedia got stuck in one or another. Its like as I explained with "Marine". Its not actually meant to be "Marine", its "Navy", but we were sick of being forced to use the 4Kids translations at the time. "Marine" is just another word for "Navy", as the page explains. But if you change the page to what its SUPPOSE to say, the stink the fandom kicked up about us using Navy was hiderous! "Oh their using the 4Kids translation how **** ios that!". Remember, when the wikia went over, 4Kids were STILL dubbing, it was only after we were here for a year or so they quit it. ¬_¬'


 * Basically, some of these things just haven't been changed for one reason or another, I could explain about this all day, but imagine what we were present with THEN and what we've got NOW. Basically, the fandom and information supplied has slowly changed and shifted from one thing to the other. Heck, when half our pages were set up and had to deal with the MS site, which no longer exist thankfully, it was full of bad translations and incorrect names ("Bagi" instead of "Buggy"). No fault of the site, but most of the early translations were LQ and done before most of the names for One Piece got revealed. One-Winged Hawk 23:48, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, wow ok. So the fact of the matter is I don't really care about the Macrons and Breves, so long as I can actually read the words. I'll just go with whatever the majority decides for that. On the naming topic, I agree consistency is the way to go here and we just change things to the Japanese titles, since as mentioned, it was already decided to do so a while back. -- YazzyDream  03:30, January 10, 2011 (UTC)

I don't really care about the names (except Shichibukai of course) the bigger thing is double uu's. I personally think everything should be done with the double uu's.

http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Names_with_long_vowels I know you remember that because you participated in it a lot. The majority wanted double uu's. SeaTerror 22:22, January 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * To be accurate, that discussion didn't resolve anything. Many of the regular editors were missing and not even an official voting process happened. The thing is we haven't done everything yet to solve this problem. MasterDeva 10:00, January 11, 2011 (UTC)

Double uu is always the best way to do things though. Even if ū, ō is more correct it looks uglier than the double uu way. SeaTerror 16:06, January 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll have to completely disagree with this and I'll explain the reason why. Using macrons is the professional way to present articles with double vowels and it's the way professional encyclopedias work. That is how Japanese texts are translated for the English language and that applies for various subjects found in Japanese language, fictional (such as the One Piece manga) or not.


 * Furthermore saying that "it looks uglier" is a weak claim to support your decision. Since we are a wikia that strives for professionalism when we are editing articles and we want to display that with our work! It would only be natural to use macrons on the present names with double vowels. If we were just another fun site I wouldn't have mentioned this and I would support the use of the double vowels, alas that is no the situation we have in our hands. MasterDeva 17:43, January 11, 2011 (UTC)

This is not Wikipedia nor should it be like Wikipedia. It doesn't matter what encyclopedias use. This is still a fan site more than it will ever be a "professional" site. Double vowels look better. This site also has fansub sections and uses fansub/scanlation titles for everything. I have never seen any fansub/scanlation use macrons. If this site was supposed to be a professional site then only the English releases would be used for anything. SeaTerror 19:03, January 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * Don't try to twist my words SeaTerror! I never mentioned Wikipedia nor I had it in mind when I was talking about encyclopedias, there are books too you know. You've also dodged what I mentioned about the English translations of Japanese texts too. I'm well aware that we use don't use "official" English translations from Viz or Funimation but that's besides the point also. Scanlations and fansubs make also grammar and syntax mistakes but we try to avoid them when we use translations from them and not copy them word for word.


 * What I said is that we try to do give a form in this wiki that is as close to professional as possible being a fan site but an encyclopedia as well. To your knowledge that's not just an opinion but it is something that has been expressed by One-Winged Hawk (aka Angel Emfrbl) AND Mugiwara Franky who are both senior members and contributors to this wikia from the early days. You should consider it from that point of view too. MasterDeva 19:41, January 11, 2011 (UTC)

"Professionals" either use macrons or cut it completely out. For instance, using Ryuma instead of Ryuuma. In fact, I have never seen an official release use macrons for their subtitles.

You missed the point completely. If this was supposed to as close to as professional as possible then this Wikia would ONLY use official English spellings. Instead most everything is either left untranslated or use fansub/scanlation spellings. Such as Pappagu instead of Pappug. Double vowels are always better. If this site was going to use macrons then it would have used them years ago. SeaTerror 20:27, January 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * How many times do I have to say think first before you act in order for you to consider it SeaTerror? In addition, you should rethink the use of quotations on professionals in your writing because you're making a blunder! Real translators use either macrons or double vowels, using Ryuma instead of Ryuuma as noted in your example is a MISTRANSLATION. Period. This wikia's purpose of using fansubs/scanlations came from the days when 4Kids was still running and Wikipedia allowed info from the dub (or anime in general) to be added to their One Piece articles as cannon.


 * Article accuracy was something that the "official" translations didn't provide and was one of the reasons this wiki was expanded upon (along with some negative feeling for 4Kids). Scanlations were ahead of the volume releases so they became a source for content, the other one being fansubs for episodes. This continues to be the case because Funimation's translations "tend to slip" here and then in their subtitles and other sources tend to be more literal though not without their own mistakes. Although it has become more of a users trend to use those particular sources that does not change anything I've said about the intention on a professional look for this site.


 * Lastly what you've said in the end about macrons, "it would have used them years ago" is just a moot point and not well though one at that. The same argument you used can be said about the Japanese vs. English naming that has gone on here since the beginning of this project. The reason for both of them staying as they are is quite simple. Editors were busy dealing with other things and a decision wasn't made about either until this day. Maybe one of these days that will change too. That's pretty much it. MasterDeva 21:39, January 11, 2011 (UTC)

You're 100% wrong. Using double vowels/macrons/one vowel are ALL ways of translating. So calling it a mistranslation is incredibly ignorant. Also you're wrong about real translators. Go watch a release on Crunchyroll they would never use double vowels. Also it just isn't this Wikia. Most Wikias use fansub/original terms. Double vowels are still better for this wikia. SeaTerror 21:58, January 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * Being headstrong won't help you solve any argument especially if you avoid them completely, I'm beginning to sound like a broken record...! Crunchyroll has received its fair of criticism over their translations, which is another reason why people have followed through the releases from fansubbing groups. It wasn't always like that for Crunchyroll but that's another story. You have stated your opinion clearly, "macrons look ugly", you've made your point SeaTerror. MasterDeva 22:08, January 11, 2011 (UTC)

Well, may I say: first, let's ignore everything about 4Kids, their edits are worth squat. I mean, "Marshall D. Teech", "Ward Newgate", WTF?! Their dubbing has practically ruined the series' good image. And then, about macrons, other wikias, such as Narutopedia, uses ū, ō and etc. So shouldn't we follow suit, and not make ourselves look bad by using these instead of extending everything with an "u"? Now, I know, this wikia is this wikia, and others are others, but we should take others for examples and improve from thereon. We could just create a template with these letters and put it in MediaWiki:Edittools, so we have easier access to them. And how are we gonna deal with the Japanese/English inconsistencies? Yatanogarasu 00:49, January 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Besides, if we do NOT use macrons, then we really should convert Santōryū, Kāshī, and such back to the double u and whatnot. Yatanogarasu 00:51, January 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * You make an excellent point that has been mentioned some time ago by Tipota when we were dealing with those same problems. The truth is that I've though of adding macrons to MediaWiki:Edittools but I didn't mention it at that time, a big mistake from my side that I am ashamed to admit. Maybe things would have been different if I had... I was ready, to mention Narutopedia as an example if someone asked about this change actually working or not too. Mentioning that we are our own wikia complete with our rules that separates us from the others was good; because you've given me an opportunity to talk about something.


 * In the past when stub templates were placed in articles, they were usually put before the navigational template because that was the way they were placed in "most wikias" at the time. The way discussion headed came to include as well the usage of the Navigation heading in articles that weren't as big as Luffy's (as an example). Short articles didn't actually need the heading because the navigational template was visible. To make a long story short, things ended up with a 'navigation section' following each template used as such and stub template being placed in the bottom of the page which has become a routine for us now. Furthermore navigational headings were create to separate the arc templates from the navigational ones.


 * In other words, the point is that we shouldn't copy what others do just because they're doing it nor be scared of innovation when we try something new. Using macrons will be a good thing for the One Peice wikia and will help us solve part of the naming problems we face in our site. I'll discuss about the Japanese/English inconsistencies some time later because I feel a little bit tired. MasterDeva 02:29, January 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Alright, I read all of the above, and while there are still things unclear to me... I will give my opinion where I can.


 * First, the English vs Japanese topic. I prefer the Japanese versions, like shichibukai instead of warlords of the sea, or shigan instead of finger gun. It just feels closer to the original.


 * Second, the ū vs uu thing. I'm honest, I have no idea which way is closer to the original and MasterDeva/Seaterror sound both very convincing. I agree that we should not just pick one form because others do so (by that logic we can change the whole wikia). But whatever is chosen, it should be consistent.Jinbe 16:57, January 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * To make my example a little more understandable, we [as a wikia] shouldn't copy what others [other wikias] do just for the sake of it BUT not scared to innovate using an idea that's out of the box [doesn't follow what came to be perceived as stereotypical].


 * From what I am aware of, most wikias based on manga or anime series (maybe both) do not use macrons, which automatically makes what Narutopedia has done as an innovation. They tried it and they have made it work, with things running along smoothly by the time I'm writing this. That alone is proof that they succeeded in converting ALL THEIR ARTICLES into the new format, not to mention that they have a greater number or articles in comparison with us! They also have disabled by default the user blogs (the word Narutards explains it all) meaning that their article count is closer to real articles than us!!


 * I haven't made a full decision about the Japanese/English inconsistencies so I'll wait to hear the opinions of the other editors. I'm weighing more on using mostly the Japanese names. Maybe we'll keep the English names too if they were provided from the manga, the databooks or some other usable source(?), of course terms that were English romanizations such as Colors Trap are acceptable. That's just an early draft of how I'm thinking a possible solution would be like.


 * Μany editors, past and present, have made clear that consistency is the way to go so this is something that I believe all of us have in common. Naturally, articles that contain their own peculiarities will always exist too so a global decision might not be a solution to those issues. Dealing with them individually (according to their own separate case) shouldn't be too difficult though. MasterDeva 18:11, January 12, 2011 (UTC)

So basically, we should convert everything to the same trend, for consistency sakes. Also, is it true that this site is going down the dumps, with Mugiwara Franky leaving and so many other people not helping anymore? Yatanogarasu 07:46, January 13, 2011 (UTC)

The only major wikia that has used macrons from the start was the Bleach Wikia. Narutopedia use to have names the way English companies have them. I support 100% converting everything to double vowels if you want consistency. SeaTerror 17:03, January 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * Mugiwara Franky's focus, for now, is the new site for reasons stated before that doesn't mean he won't contribute here any more! This site will continue to stay because according to Wikia's guidelines we can't remove it ourselves. As for Narutopedia not using macrons from the beginning is pretty much clear from someone who's read the messages so far, stating the obvious is pointless... We have two wikis (that concern us because of similarities with us) who use macrons.


 * The first one (Bleach wikia) chose to use them from the get go while the second one (Narutopedia) converted to some time later after their creation. What interests us more is the second one since, we are in the middle of a transition and Narutopedia is a good example of that, being in the same situation as we are, the choice they've made ended up in success. What they used to have in the past is irrelevant. We desire consistency for the articles within this wiki, what English companies use is of no direct concern to us! Being consistent means to use the same form, or characteristics among related aspects to achieve a sense of harmony, unity and compatibility.


 * Switching to only one format and sticking to it will bring all that and solve our problem with name inconsistencies. Examples that display the successful use of macrons have been given and portrayed. There is no reason to favor more the usage of the double vowels than that of the macrons. MasterDeva 19:38, January 13, 2011 (UTC)

"Will still provide admin services here if needed however may completely leave altogether." His userpage says otherwise. You also can't use what other wikias have changed to for various reasons. Not every wikia's format can be agreed upon. The Narutopedia always uses official English spellings. Also your words are easily reversible. There is no reason to favor more the usage of the macrons than that of the double vowels. SeaTerror 21:05, January 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * And yet again you didn't bother to check the facts. I said "Mugiwara Franky's focus, for now, is the new site for reasons stated before that doesn't mean he won't contribute here any more", that means that he may occasionally come here to contribute, his list of contributions clearly shows that he has made edits after he wrote that message in his user page! His main focus is the other site but he hasn't given up on this one yet.


 * We are here to agree upon a format for us to use which is exactly that. The fact that Narutopedia uses "official" English spellings has nothing to do with this conversation. Furthermore, my last sentence is in response to your "I support 100% converting everything to double vowels if you want consistency" and I intentionally wrote it that way. You seemed to "imply" that the only way for consistency is to use double vowels which I refuted. MasterDeva 22:30, January 13, 2011 (UTC)

And you're the one who wants macrons 100%. Nice try with that bullshit. SeaTerror 23:01, January 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh no you won't. Apologise immediately and properly for your behavior SeaTerror! Unlike you I used argumentation, examples and facts to support something without trying to use 'personal opinion' because "macrons are ugly" and "bullshit" like you did!! If you can't behave properly then leave and come back when you've learnt some manners, NOT before!! MasterDeva 23:43, January 13, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, we vented out our anger, now let's act like civilized editors. Anyway, if we convert, and not use macrons, can we do it like without using the "u" extension, because based on the fourth databook, Oda officially spelled out "Kaido", without the "u" (Kaidou). Therefore, we really should follow his example here, like: Sentomaru, Hyozo, Shusui, etc. Yatanogarasu 03:31, January 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Some people wouldn't be able to act civilized even if their live depended on it... I've mentioned what you said in my posts above, Yatanogarasu, in regards to that. If we have a source directly from the manga, the databooks or something else legitimate we are given something directly in English. However I may have done a goof here because I didn't think of a small but very important detail, consistency, again.


 * If we are to be consistent with the name format we are going to follow, it means that we'll have to do it thoroughly. Either use double vowels (so Kaido becomes Kaidou again) or macrons (Kaido becomes Kaidō). This is a dilemma because up until now we followed blindly the English spellings provided so far by the manga/databooks! Oda, like most mangaka (or to be precise the employers working with him), uses the wāpuro rōmaji romanization which is close to what we have now.


 * However, name pronunciation is somewhat changed using this kind of romanization I mentioned above. That would mean that certain names will sound different from the anime version because that's not what they use. This gives rise to a new problem. If we use the macrons which is more common, professional and standardized we automatically become consistent with the anime too. That could be said to a lesser extent for the double vowels (used primarily by fan related work, unprofessional). Wāpuro rōmaji on the other hand seems fairly at a disadvantage in comparison!


 * As you can see, it's not an easy choice to make without doing first some thinking behind it. It is more about taking decisions. Technically speaking, anything we choose is "correct" but that's only technically speaking and without taking in account everything else. MasterDeva 05:09, January 14, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but since "Kaido" is official, then we should use it as a base, and everything be converted to follow it, just like Klobis changing Hyouzou to Hyozo. Thanks to him, by the way. Yatanogarasu 05:19, January 14, 2011 (UTC)

That's just how one name was spelled. It would be better off adding a hidden note on Kaido's article explaining it and keeping the u's for the other names. Just because one name is like that doesn't mean all of the names would be like that. SeaTerror 05:56, January 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Consistency, that's what we're talking about. If one is like that, then ALL should follow, UNTIL Oda gives prove otherwise. Yatanogarasu 06:08, January 14, 2011 (UTC)

Then you already know how I would vote. SeaTerror 06:09, January 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * SeaTerror makes a valid point. You still owe me an apology by the way, I won't let it slide that easily! Kaido is no more official than Kaidou or Kaidō, that will depend on our decision on which name format we'll use. That's just the way it is with romanization. Just because his name was written like that it doesn't mean it's the de facto way for all of them.


 * Another issue would be the databook's credibility. While all databooks contain information that was written there by the author, the material itself isn't a 100% work by the mangaka himself! We've encountered some name consistency problems, specifically Dorry (Dorey) & Brogy (Burogy), with the latest being Big Mam (Big Mom). It wouldn't be wise to assume so early what spelling is used for everything when we know so little to begin with. Next thing we know we'll use speculation as fact and create more problems than solving the existing ones. MasterDeva 06:22, January 14, 2011 (UTC)

So that's why I said "UNTIL Oda gives prove otherwise". After all, whether we use "Sentomaru" or "Sentoumaru" is completely up to us, as Oda has yet to give any prove. And I say, one less "u" makes typing easier. Yatanogarasu 06:35, January 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Not to mention that macrons have the same effect AND are more standardized. :P Joking aside I think we've covered all our major concerns about the choices we make and how they'll affect us. Do you have any other idea you want to throw out for discussion? MasterDeva 06:43, January 14, 2011 (UTC)

So what, just "Sentomaru"? No "uu" or macrons? And we still have the other inconsistency of Japanese vs. English naming to discuss about. But if we are through with the macron stuff, then can we put it to a vote? Yatanogarasu 06:51, January 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * I meant Sentōmaru actually. ^_^ I think we need to hear other people's thoughts before we go on a voting. It would be impolite to leave them out of the conversation. My thoughts on the Japanese vs. English naming issue are still the same so... If someone has anything better to propose I wouldn't mind hearing a second or third opinion, we need more ideas about this. MasterDeva 07:03, January 14, 2011 (UTC)

Well, Klobis did change Hyouzou to Hyozo, and he based it on "Kaido" being official (he said it himself). So that should amount to how much people support this idea thing. Yatanogarasu 07:09, January 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Still that doesn't contradict anything I've said. Official or not any change to the name format applies accordingly to what we vote for, it's not written in stone. Technically everything is correct, it only falls down to what we decide ourselves here. We have the freedom (as a wiki) to choose what we want to use! MasterDeva 07:26, January 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Okey-Dokie, so you said hearing other people's thoughts. I did invite several, and asked you guys to invite more, but it only seems that very few people participated in this talk. Yatanogarasu 07:38, January 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * You forgot to invite Klobis(!), Joekido, Juracuille, Meganoide and KnightoftheSea. XD They are all active users AND regular editors too! MasterDeva 07:48, January 14, 2011 (UTC)

For Macrons vs. Breves, it kinda boils down to professionalism vs. average joe user know how. The use of macrons indeed are professional but are harder to create on the keyboard for most people. As for the Kaido precedent as stated in the discussion, as far as I can tell is concerned it only shows a precedent for how that one particular character's name is written. Saying that because Oda writes this character's name this way then this other character's name must be written this way is a bit of stretch at least in my opinion. I don't know how to properly say or explain it though, but maybe this whole macron vs breves thing should probably stay with names that haven't been written in english by Oda. I mean if you throw in cases like Oars, which nobody fansub or otherwise figured out, it kinda makes things abit more difficult I guess.

For English vs. Japanese, it really depends on the situation I guess. Glomping them together is kinda hard considering certain factors. For cases like Santōryū, they're best left as Japanese due to fighting style or something like that. For cases like Fishman Karate however, they're best left translated due to the Fishman Merman thing as stated above.

As for SeaTerror's behavior here for which I was called from the other site for. Saying stuff like this is bullshit or I don't like it are really not very good arguments. They only aggravate people in a discussion that would otherwise be civil. Also your behavior here and in other discussions I really have found most distressing SeaTerror. I may not be around much due to the other site, however if I am told of it becoming a real problem for other editors and find evidence to support such claims, then the consequences will be dire. Mugiwara Franky 09:40, January 14, 2011 (UTC)

Well, here's a suggestion: does anyone here know how to create a template of macrons and breves for the MediaWiki:Edittools thing, and can they do it just for convenience for the romanization? Yatanogarasu 09:44, January 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * I back Mugiwara Franky about Kaido: Oda choosing to write Kaido does not imply he's decided to stick to one way of romanizing. He could write Kaido for Kaidou, but Hyowzoh for Hyouzou! As far as I know, the name looking "more Japanese" than most others doesn't mean Oda considers it must be standardly romanized. There's nothing more to deduce from the fact he wrote "Kaido" than if he had written it "Keido" (as if it were German) or "Caillideau" (as if it were French).


 * (As for Sentōmaru, it is written using kanji, so this is an exception. To romanize it the wiki should follow the convention chosen for "true" Japanese words.) sff9 (talk) 10:36, January 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm pleased that more people have come to participate in this. I agree with certain things that Mugiwara Franky and Sff9 pointed out. There are special cases that should be dealt with according to their own peculiarities; as I've explained so above. Oars is a good example of that, Fishman Karate (魚人空手, Gyojin Karate) and Marines (海軍, Kaigun) are some others. That being said we are the ONLY wikia that doesn't have support for macrons, braves etc. due to the MediaWiki:Edittools being deleted for some reason... If Mugiware Franky unlocks the page I'll be able to add it back, so that solves the problem with editors having to remember keyboard shortcuts to write them! MasterDeva 14:58, January 14, 2011 (UTC)

So how exactly is what I did bad when he is the one who claimed that using macrons is better 100% then trying to twist the words around so that it looks like he supports both?

As I said before Kaido could be an exception. It doesn't mean that all names are like that and as is said before mangaka usually don't write the databooks themselves. So I support Sentoumaru, Ryuuma, Hyouzou, etc. SeaTerror 17:12, January 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * When you are the one who got it wrong, you shouldn't blame others for your mistakes! As I've said "articles that contain their own peculiarities will always exist too so a global decision might not be a solution to those issues" not like you who I quote, "I support 100% converting everything to double vowels if you want consistency"! Neither I said use 100% macrons, that was just you again putting words in my mouth... I did say though that "consistency is the way to go"!! I never said or implied that I support both, I just mentioned their advantages and disadvantages from a neutral point of view which you never provided. I'm still waiting for that apology, you prick... MasterDeva 17:33, January 14, 2011 (UTC)

You said you wanted the wikia as professional as possible while saying professional translators use macrons (which isn't true as evidenced by how official English companies subtitle) But anyway I apologize for being a prick. SeaTerror 23:21, January 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Apology accepted and I'm glad that you did by the way. Professional translators DO use macrons, that's evident by English translations of scientific and literature works by universities, etc. Companies such as Funimation do NOT use macrons mainly because the targeted audience is mainly kids that wouldn't possibly understand the diacritical marks or the odd spellings of words. That's for commercial purposes that do not interest us.


 * It's true that their romanization uses a style close to Wāpuro rōmaji that doesn't use macrons at all. I have explained the problem with that in one of my previous messages. I think that the misunderstanding between "professional translators" came from our different viewpoints on the subject. You refer to media company translators (like Funimation) when you talk about translations while I am referring to the standardized system. That's weird because I thought we were talking about the same thing and I became puzzled while I was reading your writings... Well, to clear some things up now!


 * University level translations by professionals use revised Hepburn (which is most widespread romanisation system) when dealing with name romanizations to the English language. In cases where the modified Hepburn is used (which is very uncommon in comparison to revised) they will translate the names ALWAYS using double vowels! That's why I said that cutting the double u is a mistranslation. The Wāpuro rōmaji system can lead to many ambiguities and since it's not standardized, using the name Kaido (for example) doesn't provide something firm to hold on to nor it makes a uniform system to use. I hope that helped clearing any misconceptions. If there is anything else I've written that needs explanation you're free to ask and I'll answer it. MasterDeva 00:23, January 15, 2011 (UTC)

The point is companies like Funimation ARE professional translators. They just choose to translate differently than how a professor would translate. Also the way how names are sometimes double vowels are needed to convey the correct way of pronunciation something for instance there is a difference between Hyuuga and Hyuga. But that is a very minor thing. Also about names if we are going for consistency then I support everything left untranslated. (Names, Locations, etc.) Didn't we also have a consistency argument about nakama being left untranslated? SeaTerror 07:16, January 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * Those companies use an unprofessional format for reasons of their own, that much is fact. Mugiwara Franky noted himself that using macrons is professionalism. Macrons are in no way lesser to the double vowels and I've mentioned that many times. Hyuuga for instance is exactly the same as Hyūga in terms of pronunciation. The only way pronunciation would change, is by cutting the double vowel or removing the macron (making it Hyuga). That's something I've also explained before.


 * To make an easy example, in Japan the children are introduced first to the easy Hiragana characters to learn the language, with the final purpose of learning how to use Kanji. It is legally required for newspapers to use Kanji with Furagana on top, while Hiragana and Katakana are used in media like mangas and video games! In other words, by making a comparison we see that the translations used by companies such as Funimation is only a small percent of what is widely used as a professional and standard system of writing!


 * Leaving everything untranslated will cause some problems with certain articles. There are several examples. Oda has already made it clear from the start that he wants to use "Marines" for "Kaigun" and later that "Gyojin Karate" alludes to Fishman and not Merman Karate. English romanizations provided by the manga and databooks are suitable for us to use. In turn, terms that we haven't got a romanization for will stay untranslated.


 * That's similar to what Mugiwara Franky said about leaving fighting styles untranslated (like Santōryū). Names and locations (this is usually an unwritten rule) should be treated the same, unless they are direct romanizations of English (foreign) words so we'll keep them in English. I think that's what most people are leaning towards to. MasterDeva 14:04, January 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * Just details about your "children and hiragana" paragraph. First, children are introduced to Hiragana because they're part of the language, not as an easy counterpart of Kanji. Contrary to Chinese, it is not possible to write Japanese using Kanji only. But maybe I misunterpreted your sentence (of course, they learn Hiragana and Katakana first because they're easier). Second, you say that it is legally required for newspapers to use Furigana, but the newspapers I've seen had none. It's precisely in manga and other child-related stuff that Kanji with Furigana are used, e.g. it is the case for One Piece. In manga destined to very young children, maybe only Kanas are used, i don't know. sff9 (talk) 16:16, January 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes that's what I meant, maybe I did not phrase it good enough. Hiragana ARE part of the language and they learn them first (together with Katakana) because they are easier. I digressed when I talked about the manga related side (indeed they are addressed to children of very small age) because they're not in the same category as One Piece (for example). As for the legal law about Furigana, I oversimplified things, my apologies. Kanji outside of the those listed by jōyō kanji must be followed by Furigana, that's the law in Japan about newspapers. MasterDeva 16:57, January 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * OK, that's completely right. I found strange that you said wrong things, but as it turns out, that was just unclear to me! Sorry, that wasn't directly related to the topic. sff9 (talk) 17:13, January 15, 2011 (UTC)

I don't know about newspapers but I do know that stuff like shounen is done in furigana/hiragana. The manga magazines that use only kanji only are seinen type manga magazines. "English romanizations provided by the manga and databooks are suitable for us to use. In turn, terms that we haven't got a romanization for will stay untranslated." That's what I meant actually. Leave those translated. Fishman Karate is a special case because Fishman is the name of the race. I'm also surprised that the Santōryū article was never named as Santouryuu. SeaTerror 17:22, January 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * So the only thing we do not agree on is the macron vs. double vowels while we share in common our ideas about the way to handle the English vs. Japanese problem, right? MasterDeva 18:07, January 15, 2011 (UTC)

I suppose. I think people agree with the translation thing anyway, SeaTerror 06:51, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

So, should we start voting once and for all? Yatanogarasu 06:54, January 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * I was about to say that we should wait for more people but I'm getting a vibe that you kill me if I say so, just kidding~! Xp I think that we have provided enough insight to the issue and have stated all the facts. I also want to mention that I gave the source codes for the MediaWiki:Edittools and MediaWiki:Edittools/UniqueTemplates templates to Mugiwara Franky and has fixed them for us! Now we have a user friendly way to support most characters and symbols!! I think it's okay to start the voting process so... 1, 2, 3 START JANGO!!! MasterDeva 13:19, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

We should probably leave messages on people's talk pages to get them to vote and discuss though. SeaTerror 16:28, January 18, 2011 (UTC)

Just before we start voting, I would like to leave one more point: since we started to reduce the usage of the u-extension (Ryuboshi, Hyozo, Ryugu Kingdom, etc.) and following with the Kaido example, we should more than really eradicate the extra u in every one of the articles, UNTIL Oda states otherwise. Just a point I'm trying to make. Yatanogarasu 09:05, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Nobody decided that. Klobis did that on his own because one name did not have the extra u. All those should be reverted back because just because one name is like that doesn't mean the rest will be. SeaTerror 16:33, January 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with SeaTerror and Mugiwara Franky, we are getting head ahead of ourselves and create more problems by doing this! This is something that I've already explained above and referred to more than once... We haven't even resolved the macron vs double vowels and we are already taking decisions for other related issues on the fly?


 * We are here to vote and decide the name format for the majority of the articles in this wiki, what the databooks use doesn't really matter. Wāpuro rōmaji itself is unsuitable to follow for consistency and carries other problems/disadvantages too, making it a moot point to follow. Saying that we should change everything because of just one name, is kind of sloppy at best and maybe a little irresponsible too. MasterDeva 18:10, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

I decided to revert them now. There was no discussion and as I stated just because one name is like that doesn't mean the rest will be. SeaTerror 18:59, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Discussion II
Since the first part was getting too long, let's start a part 2. My first point, I think we all agree macrons and breves are too much hassle here and there (and if no one would create the template for the MediaTools thing, then it's all no use), so that's all out, right? Next, should we use the extra "u" extension? I say, no for two reasons: it looks better and it's one less letter to type in. CONSISTENCY, that's what we are aiming for, since Kaido (yeah, yeah, this one alone cannot decide the others...) has no "u", I say all should follow UNTIL (and I can't stress that enough) Oda states otherwise. Everything should go with the flow in the exact same direction. Yatanogarasu 19:22, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

I completely disagree. It most definitely does not look better and it does not take much time to add the u. And it should not follow as has been stated before. Just because one character uses it does not mean the others will. So should we start using anime as a canon just like the Bleach wikia does? I mean obviously Kubo Tite must have approved it just because its the Bleach anime. That's their logic and its exactly like you are saying. SeaTerror 19:30, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * No, what I'm saying is: so does Kaido get an exception just because of the Green databook, while everyone else must suffer the indignity of the "u"? Yatanogarasu 19:37, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

I already said he should get an exception in this discussion. Also I think you mean they must suffer the dignity of the u. SeaTerror 20:13, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, still, I believe in fairness... the "u" is so unfair... Yatanogarasu 20:36, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

The u is a lot more fair than cutting out a part of their name. SeaTerror 21:09, January 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * Let's keep it at that gentlemen. I've noted this before but just because the Databook has it written as Kaido, it doesn't mean that Kaidō OR Kaidou are wrong! That's for us to decide here which name format to follow, the databook is just one of them. We can be consistent by choosing one and sticking to it while we deal with various oddities that come along according to their special attributes and issues. Strictly technically speaking all of them are correct and I want to remind that to everyone. We can't get too much hold up on just a databook. MasterDeva 21:15, January 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * My 2 cents: in the Green Databook, just below Kaido's frame, Big Mam is romanized as "Big Mom" (which isn't what have been used in the manga)... So, while using the databook as a reference to romanize Kaido may be acceptable (since this is the only source we have), basing on this mere source the choice for a global romanization standard seems a little excessive! sff9 (talk) 22:30, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

The Databooks also listed Dorry and Broggy as Dorey and Burogy. Since the manga had them different they went with what the manga had it. As has been said before the Databooks are not written by the mangaka themselves. SeaTerror 22:48, January 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * That was already mentioned by me some posts above! O_O I think that we should do a summary of what was mentioned and do the voting as soon as possible to avoid repeating ourselves and running around in circles. I'm afraid that not many people will come to express their opinion in this discussion other than to vote and get done with it... MasterDeva 22:55, January 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * Tokyo - the name is not spelled "Toukyou"! Phonetically it is "Tōkyō", but all spelled it "Tokyo", and they pronounce it correctly.


 * Also, Kaido is spelled "Kaido" but pronounced "Kaidō". That's correct way. In other words, "Hyouzou" "Ryuuboshi" is the way not used. --Klobis 04:30, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! Finally, someone gives a great example! Yatanogarasu 05:47, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

They would be pronounced the exact same way regardless if there is a macron or not. Also you said they weren't correct just because Oda spelled one name that way. Just because one is spelled that way doesn't mean the rest are. SeaTerror 06:39, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, yeah, one example can't determine the others, you said that so many times. However, we are now basing it on Klobis' example, we really should follow it, like Tokyo. Yatanogarasu 07:46, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand how Klobis' example makes any difference though, you mean Japan's capital correct? Yet, how is that relevant to the One Piece world? There's more than one "correct" way to right a name, that much is obvious to everyone by now. Just because Tokyo is pronounced the same, it doesn't mean that by changing all names to that they are pronounced right! In fact, many of them lose that. It's great that we have another example besides "Kaido" but is no more concrete than either of them... MasterDeva 11:08, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

We should not follow it like Tokyo because of what MasterDeva said. It has nothing to do with One Piece. SeaTerror 14:43, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Then why are there irrelevant pages to One Piece like Tankōbon, Aoni Production, etc.? Anyway, I think we waited long enough. We should get the voting started soon. Yatanogarasu 02:51, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

MasterDeva, SeaTerror. One question: Who is the author of this great manga? Yes, he is Eiichiro Oda. Do you spell his name "Eiichirou"? Who spells his name "Eiichirou"!? --Klobis 03:12, January 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * That would be Eiichirō Oda, I believe~! XD MasterDeva 05:00, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

Whatever the case is macrons are 100X better than just plain cutting off the u at the end and double vowels. Also enough with the real life examples. It has no bearing with what a manga is. SeaTerror 07:10, January 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, so, Tokyo or Eiichiro is not relevant to the One Piece world. Then, in OP world, Kaido is spelled Kaido. Jinbe is spelled Jinbe, not Jinbee. It means Hyozo is spelled Hyozo, not Hyouzou. Hyozo has no official spelling yet, right? How did you know Oda's spelling already? What SeaTerror said is egoistic and groundless. --Klobis 02:16, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

You're the one with groundless claims. You're the one who said that the name is spelled Hyozo because Kaido is spelled Kaido. Just because one name is like that does not mean the rest are. SeaTerror 05:14, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

Alright, even though I support Klobis and am very thankful for his great examples and statements, I'm not taking sides (until the voting), but SeaTerror, your theory of "just because one name is like that does not mean the rest are" is not fair, especially when we are talking about CONSISTENCY, UNTIL (I keep saying that and nobody seems to take it into account) Oda say otherwise. Yatanogarasu 05:18, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah? I already told you how I support consistency. By using double vowels and the extra u. SeaTerror 05:23, January 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * I know, and thanks, but I was just referring to the Kaido example. Yatanogarasu 05:27, January 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * You say your opinion is superior to official spellings, SeaTerror? Who do you think you are? It is you who bring about inconsistencies. --Klobis 08:52, January 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * Although SeaTerror sounds repetitive saying the same over and over again, it doesn't make it any less valid than when he said it the first time. However it won't make it any stronger... That shows us that we have mentioned everything there was to say about the topic and it's time to vote. All of us concurred on being consistent by deciding on a single name format, that much everyone shares in common. Choosing though to base the entire system on just a name "until" it is proven otherwise, is problematic in itself. Not only it borders dangerously with speculation but if that name were to change, we would have to start this conversation ALL OVER AGAIN!


 * Let's explore a different scenario. Suppose that the name doesn't change and stays the same, how will that affect us? English romanizations, mostly databook material, are handled by the mangaka's assistants (that happens with almost every manga) and not the author personally. Wāpuro rōmaji, for instance, is often used as the romanization system which can lead to phonetic inaccuracies and other problems because of its unstandardised nature. I'll use a simple example. If we, as a wiki or any other wiki, decided to follow that system and stumbled upon its naming conflicts; it would come to hunt us again, and again and again...


 * That's why the use of a more professional and standardised system is needed by us to avoid those problems. To sum it up, we should decide now what to use, once and for all. That is the very purpose of this conversation and the reason we started this discussion. I don't think I can say anything else that hasn't been mentioned at least twice by some other... we should start the voting process and move on! MasterDeva 12:48, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

Vote
Alright, let's start voting. I thought this system is easier to keep track of, but feel free to give comments below. Yatanogarasu 18:36, January 24, 2011 (UTC) Which system should we use? Macrons and breves (Kaidō) Extension with a "u" (Kaidou) Without either (Kaido)

And I hope nobody forgot about the second inconsistency I put up earlier. I know, we should do this one both ways, but I still think we should have a vote. Yatanogarasu 18:36, January 24, 2011 (UTC) Which translation (transliteration) should we use? English all the way Japanese all the way Both ways

Comments
Feel free to give extra comments here. Yatanogarasu 18:36, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

A poll, seriously? We should use a system were we can see who voted what. Fan polls are only good for popularity contests between characters, abilities and the like but NOT for a process like this one! MasterDeva 19:03, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Like I said, it's easier to keep track of this way. Yatanogarasu 19:05, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * If you don't think it's appropriate, then please feel free to switch it to something else. Yatanogarasu 19:05, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

Cover Pages: A New Inconsistency
While we're on the subject of inconsistencies, I have a new one to bring up: cover page images for chapter pages. It was said that we prefer RAW images for these cover pages, but I noticed some of them are either in scanlated English or some other foreign language (Chinese). Can we fix it all up? Yatanogarasu 07:46, January 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm on it, I'll need some time though. MasterDeva 10:40, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

When was that ever said that RAW's were preferred? Scanlated English covers should be used. SeaTerror 14:43, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, MasterDeva. To SeaTerror, we prefer to use RAW because it captures the essence of the chapter, and it's not diluted by all the scanlations, watermark and copyright logos, etc. Yatanogarasu 23:19, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

The only chapter scanlation covers that have water mark and copyright logos are Mangastream. Besides I checked the talk pages. Who's this "we"? Nowhere does it say that RAW's are preferred. SeaTerror 02:05, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

IMPORTANT; Changes to related guidelines
Name Spellings • Other Languages  • Japanese Vs English names

These pages need imeditate attention related to this topic just to be cleaned up. I confess I'm lost on the names so can't fix any problems with them. Can someone who knows whats going on check them over and adjust them where needed? Its rally important guidelines support editors' actions otherwise it can go against us. One-Winged Hawk 16:32, January 22, 2011 (UTC)