Talk:First Twenty

Manmayer Family and the existence of branch families
We have to talk about this because it feels like a bunch of speculations with mistaken reasoning behind it.

I can agree that having stuff like Jaygarcia Family or Ethanbaron Family may be too early to include here, but that's only because the terms themselves do not exist explicitly in the manga. We would be technically making up terms based solely on character names, which is a no-no. The Manmayer Family, however, should not be categorized similarly, since its existence is explicit.

I cannot accept however that a content moderator utilize their own speculations as proof of something. There was never anything in the series that ever hinted at the existence of branch families or whatever. The first paragraph of the World Noble page outright states: "The World Nobles...are the aristocratic descendants of nineteen of the First Twenty who established what is now known as the World Government". This is an explicit statement that exists in the manga, and so far has never been proven to the contrary. KingCannon (talk) 16:59, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Just because all the World Nobles are descended from the First Twenty doesn't mean they use the same names they did originally; hence the possibility of branch families.

If we don't consider that there could be branch families, then the Jaygarcia, Ethanbaron, etc. families would definitely be the names of founding members, even if the explicit "X Family" name isn't necessarily canon; there would be no reason not to just list them as "Jaygarcia Ancestor", "Ethanbaron Ancestor", etc. You'll notice, as well, that the Figarland Family isn't listed here, because we don't know for sure that "Figarland" was a name used by any of the First Twenty.

Also, regarding "I cannot accept however that a content moderator utilize their own speculations as proof of something." - As I pointed out, the standard since June has been to not include families that weren't explicitly mentioned, at which point it was uncontested. If you disagree with it now, and have people who disagree with you, it's your job to begin the discussion instead of repeatedly adding it. Walrsu (talk) 17:05, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Please, tell me where was this decided, because I cannot find this discussion from June. KingCannon (talk) 17:10, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

By the way:

"Just because all the World Nobles are descended from the First Twenty doesn't mean they use the same names they did originally; hence the possibility of branch families."

This is also incredibly speculative. Why are we suddenly accepting that the World Nobles are not using their names as before? We cannot treat speculations as canon just because they're possible. No one in the manga ever stated they could be using different names.

Again, I want proof that those branch families are a thing, and not just something made up because of "possibilities". KingCannon (talk) 17:14, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

The change was first made here and nobody contested it, and it's been enforced a few times since. There was no discussion because nobody said they disagreed with the change; if somebody had, then it would have been Klobis' responsibility to begin a discussion.

"No one in the manga ever stated they could be using different names." And nobody ever stated they definitely aren't. Not listing the Manmayer Family isn't the same as assuming they used a different name, it's just making it clear that we don't know if they did or not. While I do agree that it's likely they used the same names, it's not confirmed either way.

"Again, I want proof that those branch families are a thing" - the burden of proof is on you, since you want to change the standard. I can respond with the exact same thing - I want proof that there definitely aren't branch families, and not just an assumption that there have been no changes in 800 years. Walrsu (talk) 17:17, 29 October 2023 (UTC)