Talk:Yamato

New Information (Chapter 1052)
The official release of chapter 1052 has occurred, so I figure I might as well bring up the new information from it as the top of this talk page points out: "This ruling is subject to being revisited and changed based on the release of new information from official sources."

In chapter 1052, Yamato points out that there is no mixed-bathing option in the castle so she doesn't bathe with the other women and instead bathes with all of the male characters. It is worth noting that Kiku, who identifies as female, chooses to bathe with the other women. This seems like more significant evidence (beyond being referred to as Kaidou's son) that Yamato identifies as male. Even if the actual reasoning for why Yamato identifies as male is unique, there is strong evidence presented here for us to accept that Yamato should be treated as male and perhaps the wiki page should be updated to reflect this if others agree. Damage3245 (talk) 15:08, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Here we go again... AcXAcX (talk) 15:10, 12 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Oh, lord, not again... Might I point out that it was also stated that in the past Kiku bathed with the men as well? So, yeah, that doesn't really prove anything. Timjer (talk) 15:14, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

It should go without saying but please stay on-topic and comments complaining about the topic are not necessary here. This is a wiki and discussing new information that comes up as the chapters are released is part of the wiki's business. Regarding Kiku bathing with men in the past, Oda has stated that she's been very social from a young age and Kiku says in this chapter that she only bathed with Oden and the others because she was familiar with them, and doesn't choose to bathe with a group of men willingly. Also, Yamato states that there is no mixed-bathing in the castle. If she identified as female and bathed with all the male Straw Hats, that would make it mixed-bathing. Evidently Yamato is considering themselves to be male here. Damage3245 (talk) 15:17, 12 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Thing is, Damage, please understand that most if not all of the entire fandom is utterly TIRED of the Yamato gender discussion. People tend not to like it anymore when others bring it up to change it to how they want it to be. And you seem to be very obsessed with proving yourself right. Look, I admit that the whole bathing stuff muddles it a bit. But I still don't consider it absolute proof yet. If you ask me, once Yamato joins the crew and finally drops the "I'm Oden" shtick, then we'll see how Yamato still identifies herself. If Yamato outright comes out and declares himself male, then I'll accept it. But for now there is still not enough proof. Timjer (talk) 15:26, 12 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Oh, and about Kiku being more comfortable around Oden becaus she's familiar with them? Guess what, who is Yamato most familiar with amongst the bathers? That's right, Luffy and Momo. So, yeah, your argument doesn't really work. Timjer (talk) 15:32, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Please keep your personal assumptions out of this. I am not "very obsessed with proving myself right". If this chapter had come out and shown Yamato choosing to bathe with the female characters instead of the other male characters then I would have taken it as supporting evidence that Yamato identifies as female. I don't have a set agenda that I am setting out to prove; I am bringing new evidence to the table because somebody has to. If you're tired of the discussion and don't want a part of it then you can just stay out of the discussion. Also additional headcanon like "Yamato will join the crew and drop the Oden shtick" is inappropriate here. I don't think you could get a more outright declaration than Yamato in an earlier chapter saying "I became a man too" and Yamato in this chapter intentionally bathing with other male characters instead of female characters. Damage3245 (talk) 15:34, 12 June 2022 (UTC)


 * "I would have taken it as supporting evidence that Yamato identifies as female" Somehow I doubt that, but that's not the point here, so please just adress my actual argument rather than use ad hominems and saying I should stay out of it. Now the argument "I became a man too" doesn't really work. Yamato DIDN'T "become a man". Biologically, Yamato is still female afaik. And also afaik, one doesn't just choose to identify as another gender. Look, I may be wrong here, but gender dysphoria is NOT a choice people make. If you are the opposite gender as you're born with, it's not because you suddenly chose to be that. No, what Yamato is saying is that she adopted the persona and mannerism and such of ODEN, because she believes Wano needs an Oden. We'll see how long that lasts now that Momo is the "new Oden". Timjer (talk) 15:41, 12 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Anyway, the BEST argument you can make is that Yamato is gender fluid or something. But not that she's male. Timjer (talk) 15:43, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Infoboxes are from Oda himself which called Yamato a female. Every other source including Vivre Cards called her female. SeaTerror (talk) 15:42, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm not disputing that Yamato is still biologically female. I'm interpreting "Became a man" in this circumstance to mean identify as a male, which is supported by the latest chapter. This isn't a discussion about whether Yamato has true body dysphoria and we don't need a complete medical diagnosis on Yamato. What we do know from this chapter if that Yamato considers themselves to be among the "male" group of characters and additional assumptions like "Yamato is just familiar with them" are disproved because Yamato says there is no mixed-bathing here. I'd like to also point out that I haven't used ad hominems once here and I never said you should stay out of it. If you have any issues with me personally, take it off this talk page. Damage3245 (talk) 15:48, 12 June 2022 (UTC)


 * So you admit that Yamato is not trans? And therefore not male? Because afaik that means Yamato is male just as much as Mulan is male.; putting up a male persona does NOT mean you identify as male. "This isn't a discussion about whether Yamato has true body dysphoria" Well, forgive me, but a LOT of people do think it IS that. "If you have any issues with me personally, take it off this talk page." I don't have issues with you. I haven't been in any way impolite in this thread. But YOU did say to me that I should stay out of this if I don't like the discussion and you DID get offended when I expressed my (justified) frustration that this discussion is being pointlessly revived. Timjer (talk) 15:54, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@Timjer; I never said you should stay out of the discussion, I said that anyone who is tired of the discussion can stay out of it. I do get offended when people misquote me and derail the topic from its intended purpose. And regardless of my personal opinion of whether Yamato is trans, male or has body dymorphia, I am preferring to go off of what the manga is presenting rather than my personal opinions on it. Whether I "admit" that Yamato is not trans or whatever has no bearing on it. Damage3245 (talk) 15:58, 12 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Except I did NOT derail the topic in any way! My VERY FIRST comment on this thread was on-topic and compared Yamato to Kiku. You're derailing it by getting offended at anything I say and you're the one who keeps bringing that up instead of staying on topic. Timjer (talk) 16:01, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@Timjer; can you please stop now? Let us make this the last post on this and from now on let the talk page be focused on discussing the new information. Any further posting outside of that will be derailing. I'm just trying to get us back on track. Damage3245 (talk) 16:05, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

This debate is just absurd, Yamato is Oden, you have to apply that logic to any decision she mades. She said that Momo was her son because "she is Oden", and she takes baths with the boys because Oden was a man and he took baths with men, end. Cracker-Kun (talk)

"I am preferring to go off of what the manga is presenting" Oda himself trumps the manga. I already mentioned what he decided. SeaTerror (talk) 16:10, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

"I'm tired of this discussion" is not a valid argument. If you are tired of it then feel free to not participate on this talk page. There is a legitimate reason as to why this discussion has started back up again.

"Oda trumps the manga" makes no sense as Oda wrote the manga. Especially when you are using that argument to support an earlier development over a later one, in almost all instances of the author overriding their text it is the later version that is correct.

Where Kiku bathed in the past has no bearing on this discussion especially considering that she is bathing with the women in the present day because that is how she identifies, and we even get further explanation that she bathed with Oden and the other Scabbard men because she felt comfortable with them. As far as we know, Yamato is in the men's bath for the same reason Kiku is in the women's bath, and saying that Yamato joined the men because of "comfort" the way Kiku bathed with the Scabbards is completely unfounded.

At this point, I think it is clear that Oda is not treating Yamato adopting Oden's identity as though it is a joke. Obviously, there are objective differences between them that Yamato cannot change. Even if Yamato considers Momonosuke as a son, Momonosuke does not accept Yamato as a father, and thus they cannot be considered parent and child for the same reason that Judge and Sanji are not considered parent and child, as Sanji does not recognize Judge as his father. However, I believe that the things Yamato can change have been changed. We acknowledge that Yamato has elected to use the name "Kozuki Oden" in addition to Yamato, and I believe the bath scene makes it clear that Yamato has chosen to go as a man, which he can choose to do. I am open to further discussion into how we should treat Yamato's intent to become Oden, but this is my conclusion based on the facts presented. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 16:59, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

""Oda trumps the manga" makes no sense as Oda wrote the manga. Especially when you are using that argument to support an earlier development over a later one, in almost all instances of the author overriding their text it is the later version that is correct."

The infoboxes are directly from Oda. What part of this chapter did Oda reintroduce Yamato's infobox? SeaTerror (talk) 17:04, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Kaido's view on how this development changed the narrative slightly. Then again, both sides have solid grounds to stand on, since what people see as correct matters on perspectives based for a large part on personal viewpoints and ideologies. A long discussion isn't going to help anything here. Yeah, sure, Oda said this and that in the past, but as others have brought up, this chapter did give a slightly more nuanced message to the overall picture. I say keep this discussion short and poll it. 17:10, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Upon further reflection I do want to acknowledge that a lot of out-of-universe references to Yamato do state or at least imply that Yamato is female. However, I still believe firmly at this point that in the story Yamato fully identifies as a man and other characters have accepted this. Until these sides are resolved more cleanly, I would be okay with reverting to what we did before and electing to refer to Yamato as gender neutrally as possible. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 17:42, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Gender neutality as an option here seems more than fair, and we can always keep the Gender section on Yamato's page to explain the out-of-universe material. Damage3245 (talk) 17:49, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't think whether or not Yamato qualifies as transgender matters to this discussion, but since it came up I want to point out that there are many real transgender people without gender dysphoria, Yamato doesn't need to have gender dysphoria to identify as a man. A hang-up for some people seems to be the idea that Yamato doesn't meet some criteria to truly identify as a man, but this criteria doesn't even exist in real life.

Yamato said that he became a man, which is a direct statement of his identity. He has referred to himself as Kaido's son since he was eight years old, and has introduced himself to people as Kaido's son on multiple occasions. When there was no mixed bathing, Yamato chose to bathe with the men. On the other hand, there is absolutely nothing in the story which indicates that Yamato identifies as a woman. Yamato's infobox and Vivre Card CALL him a woman, but they don't make any statements which clarify Yamato's identity in a way which explains why he acts the way he does in the manga (for example saying something like "Yamato only calls herself a man for X reason but otherwise feels like a woman"). So why should the infobox or Vivre Card be considered above the events of the story itself which have repeatedly had Yamato demonstrate that he identifies as a man?

Yamato called Momonosuke his son because Momonosuke was Oden's son. But in other scenes where Yamato is referring to himself as Yamato and not Oden, he calls himself Kaido's son. And Oden was not Kaido's son. If Yamato only identified as a man when "roleplaying" as Oden, but otherwise thought of himself as a woman, why does he not call himself Kaido's daughter when referring to that relationship which has nothing to do with Oden? It's clear that Yamato thinks of himself as a man whether or not he's "acting" as Oden.

The most important thing when deciding what gender to refer to a character as should be how that character personally identifies, and there continues to be more and more evidence that Yamato sincerely identifies as a man. Until there's evidence of Yamato's identity changing, I don't see any reason why referring to Yamato as a woman should be a valid option. DewClamChum (talk) 19:37, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Yamato's a woman. She's in the men's bath because that's what Oden would do and because it would be weird to party with the icky girls. It's a gag. Unless Oda explicitly states "Yamato is male", we should go with what we've seen, that she's a woman who acts like she's "one of the boys".

You have to consider that Oda's track record with gender identity isn't...particularly great. Kiku was a rare exception to his usual "ha ha cross dresser funny" shtick, but now with Yamato people are grasping at straws looking for things that aren't there. With Kiku, there was a single line revealing that she was born male but literally everything else about her is female.

At most, I'd say include the bath scene in the gender paragraph displaying how it makes things more confusing, but Yamato preferring to hang out in a bath with the boys doesn't suddenly mean she identifies as male. She's doing it because it's what Oden would do.

And yes, she refers to herself as "Kaidou's son", "Oden", etc. But in addition to the infobox describing her as "Kaidou's daughter", the vivre card (which comes from Oda) said she's female (with no caveats like Kiku, if her gender was described as "male at heart" or even "Oden" then things would be different), plus she appears with other women in a lot of additional One Piece content (that World 100 video or whatever, the Heroines novels, etc.).

Honestly, I get the feeling that in the next chapter or two, depending on whether Yamato joins, Oda's gonna have to come to a point where he lets Yamato be her own character instead of just an Oden cosplayer. We'll see what happens, but I think he'll let Yamato come into her own. Until then, I say we keep things as is and just add an additional note that the situation remains thorny. The Pope 19:51, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I have to agree with Kaido now, regardless of Yamato being female we've seen that he still prefers and wants male pronouns. Also, I need to say that him being a girl isn't incompatible with using male pronouns. We ain't really here to discuss which gender he relates to but how is he described and refered, and it is clear that it is with male pronouns so there shouldn't really be a lot of discussion after chapter 1052 proving once again how he should be treated. 20:04, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree with changing the page to reflect Yamato's identity as a man. But like AOD, I think this should be a poll. I have no patience for people being rude or dismissive in this discussion. If anyone is tired of the discussion, you don't have to participate. Otherwise, please present your ideas/opinions in a respectful way.

To the arguments saying we should wait, every week we mark characters as unknown or deceased, but Oda fakes us out on deaths all the time. Should we wait until the end of the arc for that, too? I know it is not the exact same thing, but what I'm trying to articulate is that we base articles off chapters each week. If Yamato identifies as female in two or three chapters, we can change it back. But going off the info we have right now, he identifies as a man. 20:07, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I still believe Yamato should be kept identified as a female until we see how Oda play things out after Wano, I don't think we should change it immediately however I also have no problem if it gets changed to gender neutrality for the time being.Opera298 (talk) 20:53, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

By the way, to anyone saying "Yamato prefers male pronouns"...uh, no? You do know that gendered pronouns don't exist in Japanese, right? It's what's caused all this confusion to begin with. The Pope 21:10, 12 June 2022 (UTC)


 * This is not actually true. Gendered pronouns are extraordinarily rare in Japanese speech/writing compared to English, but they exist.  The original Metroid specifically used them as a misdirection tactic regarding Samus's gender reveal in the best ending https://legendsoflocalization.com/qa-was-samus-called-a-he-in-japanese-too/ MugMonster (talk) 18:32, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

There's a lot of evidence to suggest that Yamato is a man, as he identifies, within the story itself. Also as DewClamChum pointed out, Yamato does not always "roleplay" as Oden, and still calls himself a man and a son independent from anything with Oden. I feel like The Pope's comments about him is really short-sighted about Yamato's character. He doesn't just characterize himself as Oden, and not everything he does is because "it's what Oden would do". Yamato doesn't even mention Oden in regards to the bathhouse scene, so this idea that he would join the men only because "that's what Oden would do" is just a subjective inference, and it's one that I don't find very agreeable. I could even say that the panel with Yamato and Kiku choosing their bathhouses was a deliberate nod from Oda on their gender identities. It just seems a little too perfect, but that's also a subjective inference. But at least it's based on the content and structure of the story and not a flanderized interpretation of the character in question. As for content such as Vivre Card that mentions Yamato's apparent gender identity, that's a pretty strong case for the idea that Yamato is a woman. However, it isn't the manga, and it's not really about how he refers to himself in the manga or how other characters refer to him in the manga. If the content that Oda is directly, 100% involved with treats Yamato as a man, why is this superfluous external material that serves a different purpose from the main narrative medium, and is mostly just a collection of information that Oda only needs to give an "okay" on to pass, treated as higher than the narrative itself? The manga IS higher in our "canon hierarchy" than the databooks, after all. That's not even getting into the fact that Vivre Card itself isn't fully reliable. The VERY first page of this new chapter, in fact, contradicts it: Caesar Clown did not escape Whole Cake Island. That's not to say databooks should never be taken into account, but they aren't the be-all-end-all of information. Having said that, while I'm in full 100% support of treating Yamato as a man given the evidence in the narrative, it might be a good compromise if Yamato was treated more ambiguously. Avoid pronouns, or use they/them, until the situation is fully clear. I also, personally, think we should wait a week before making a real decision. Only because next week is the final chapter before Oda goes on a month-long break, and there could be more useful information then. But I understand if that's a bit counter-productive. My vote is for treating Yamato as a man, because Yamato is a man. 21:28, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

EVERYTHING about Yamato's gender is subjective except the following:


 * "Oden was a man, right? So I became a man too."
 * Yamato's intro card as "Kaidou's daughter"
 * The Vivre card

Everything else is what we, the viewer, have taken away with it with a western, progressive gender perspective. We can feel like Yamato identifies as a woman, but at the end of the day, it's Oda's word over ours. We can include all this other information in the gender translation section, but for the meantime, we need to go with the facts that Oda has objectively laid out. Everything else about Yamato's gender can be construed one way or another, but at the end of the day, the overwhelming objective evidence is in that Oda considers Yamato a woman who prefers to behave and be treated like a man, not necessarily that she completely identifies as one. The Pope 21:36, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

If you want a manga only argument then Sanji's reaction in the latest chapter would also point against Yamato not being male. SeaTerror (talk) 21:41, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

The Pope, then you are agreeing that since he prefers to be treated like a man we should use male pronouns to talk about him like all the characters in the series do. 22:05, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Like I said, gendered pronouns don't exist in Japanese. So "all the characters" don't refer to her as anything. The closest you can get is the Beasts Pirates calling her "Kaidou's son", which is already super confusing. Considering her cantakerous relationship with her father, I highly doubt Kaidou said "you know, my daughter's taking on the name of my sworn enemy but I should really accept his new gender identity, I'm a good dad". Like...in what universe does that happen, lol. It's more likely Yamato came out as a girl, Kaidou said "what no I want a son, you're my son, deal with it", and that's how this whole thing started. That's certainly conjecture, but that's the thing, we don't know. What we do know is that Oda referred to her as a woman in the vivre card. Therefore, he considers her a woman, regardless of what us gender theorists may think. The Pope 22:25, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I can't say anything about pronouns as I can't read Japanese and I'm not sure how they approach gendered pronouns, if any at all. But all characters HAVE referred to Yamato as a man. You ask "in what universe does that happen" with your fake Kaido quote, and yeah, that doesn't happen. Kaido does not say "my daughter" at any point in the entire series. He only refers to Yamato, even before he's introduced, as "my son", and Yamato refers to himself as "son of Kaido". He's called a man throughout the couple of years we've known him at this point. He's even in the bathhouse, with the men, with no protest or confusion from anybody. If you want to act like he's not being referred to by a man in the story itself or treated as a man by the characters with that, well, I can't control your personal thoughts. But the literal only instance that Yamato is ever referred to as female in the manga is in his infobox. This whole debate is kind of on that infobox, if you think about it. It all centers on whether or not we respect how characters feel or stick with the undiagetic information, which is prone to error and change. Oda's involvement with Vivre Card isn't even as clear-cut as his involvement with the manga, but that's a different debate. I feel like what's really missing is actual evidence that Yamato SHOULD be treated as a woman. The story doesn't, the characters don't, and even Oda clearly doesn't. He's the one who's writing the characters, after all. Objectively, we have conflicting information from Oda himself about what Yamato should be referred to as. At that point, I think it's best we go for how Yamato is referred to in the story itself. I think you know really well that if Oda did treat Yamato as a woman, none of us would be talking about this. 22:47, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

"If you want a manga only argument then Sanji's reaction in the latest chapter would also point against Yamato not being male."

Yeah that's not a very good argument as no one is expecting characters who aren't acquainted with Yamato to instantly know that he identifies as male. This happened before in Ch. 999 with the Spade Pirates and Ch. 984 with Luffy, and Yamato quickly explained to Luffy why he states to be Kaido's son. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 22:54, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

"He's even in the bathhouse, with the men, with no protest or confusion from anybody."

um

Momonosuke is clearly confused, lol. Sanji and Brook are having mini freakouts. It's pretty clear they view Yamato as a woman, regardless of how you think of her.

Meanwhile, Luffy's basically asexual so he doesn't care, and Zoro's never been a horndog so it's reasonable he wouldn't care either. Chopper's innocent (and doesn't like humans, the only woman he's ever shown attraction to was that reindeer mink) and then Jinbe and Nekomamushi are just whatever about it.

At any rate, "no confusion from anybody" is just objectively wrong to a funny degree.

As for "how much involvement from Oda is clear-cut with the Vivre Cards", I'm pretty sure it's confirmed that every piece of information there comes straight from his mouth. And he didn't put down Yamato's gender as "man at heart" or anything like that. This week's chapter aside, I honestly believe it's still pretty clear-cut. The Pope 23:26, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Yamato has also been refered by the Beasts Pirates as "Oni Princess" (ch. 1024) as well as "Beasts Pirates Princess (Vivre Card), that should be also taken into account. Cracker-Kun (talk) 23:31, 12 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Ah, that's right. He is called Ogre Princess, according to Viz, in that chapter. Which Yamato responds demanding he's Oden. Though this is when he's a child, and probably really believed he was Oden, or wanted to convince himself as being Oden. A slightly different mindset than now, but still. That's an instance where he's called female. The Vivre Card part I think is strong too, mainly because it's a specific alias (although maybe a slight error? Shouldn't it be Oni/Ogre Princess?). Either way, Yamato still identifies as Yamato while stanning Oden, and identifying as a man. I still think man is necessary, but it really shows how not clear-cut this whole thing really is. Dunno what else to say except I stand slightly corrected. lol 03:11, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

"Kaido does not say "my daughter" at any point in the entire series. He only refers to Yamato, even before he's introduced, as "my son", and Yamato refers to himself as "son of Kaido".

That would be because only males can be shogun. SeaTerror (talk) 03:22, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Pretty sure Yamato objecting to Onihime was due to not wanting to be thought of as an Oni's child, not because "gender bad". Again, I find it hard to believe that Kaidou and the entirety of the Beasts Pirates would refer to her as Kaidou's son out of respect for her choices when it's clear that Kaidou has zero respect for her, or her choices. The Pope 04:09, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Arguments like "Kaido only refers to Yamato as his son because he wants Yamato to be Shogun" are entirely rooted in headcanon and not necessary on this wiki. Damage3245 (talk) 10:07, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Right. MOST things regarding Yamato's gender are rooted in headcanon, beyond the three points I mentioned ("Oden was a man, so I chose to become a man too", the infobox, the vivre card). Everything beyond those is subjective. The Pope 16:49, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

The information from the latest chapter is not subjective. It's extremely direct information from Yamato themselves. Damage3245 (talk) 17:53, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Yamato wanting to go into the men's bath is direct. Why she wanted to do it (she identifies as a male, she identifies as Oden, Oden would be in the male bath, she'd rather just be with the guys because she'd be more comfortable, etc.) is subjective. She does not say the words "I want to go into the men's bath because I am a man." Everything beyond her being in the men's bath is subjective. The Pope 18:14, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Yamato said she couldn't go bathing with Nami because there was no mixed bathing. If she identified as a woman, why would the "no mixed bathing" rule stop her from bathing with other women? Damage3245 (talk) 18:21, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Because "Oden is a man" and she wants to do what Oden would do? Reading into her identity as Oden, or Oden AND male, or as two separate things, or one in the same, it's all subjective. Whether it's "I want to be in the men's bath because I'm a man" or "I want to be in the men's bath because I'm Oden", we don't know the real answer (it's more likely the latter), and reading deeper into it is subjective. Oden is male. She wants to be Oden. That's all that's objective. If Oden was a woman, would she go in the women's bath? Maybe, probably? We don't know. It's a thorny issue, and one that we can't make assumptions on based on our own thoughts and feelings. The Pope 18:24, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

If Oden was a woman we wouldn't be having this discussion. But speculating on how Yamato would act differently if Oden were anything different is pointless. What we have to deal with is how the series actually is, AKA what Yamato actually identifies as in canon. And we have three cases now of Yamato affirming a male identity; saying they chose to become male since Oden was, saying that they're Kaido's son and choosing to bathe in the male area in a no-mixed bathing area. Damage3245 (talk) 18:38, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

You're right. What Yamato identifies as is canon. Because the Vivre cards are canon. And the Vivre card states she's a woman.

The latter two things you mentioned, again, are completely subjective. Why does she call herself "Kaidou's son"? Is it because she identifies as male? Because Kaidou wanted a son, so he forced her to be called his son? We don't know, and trying to read gender theory into it is being subjective. All we can go off of is objective information, and the fact is that Oden labelled her as "Daughter of Kaidou" and that in the Vivre card listed her as a woman. If Zoro spent the first 30 chapters of his introduction claiming "I'm a big green pickle" regardless of all word of Oda stating otherwise, would we refer to him as a big green pickle? Yes, gender is a complicated issue and we don't want to misgender someone. But your own progressive well-meaning mindset isn't what needs to be making the deciding factor, it's what Oda himself has stated as fact. The Pope 18:45, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi everyone, I’m pretty new to this community but I’ve been following this discussion for a while now and I wanted to give my thoughts on it.

My thoughts are solely based on two pieces of evidence, the first is Yamato’s quote (“Oden was a man, so I chose to become a man too") and second, the discussion that takes place in chapter 1052.

But first I’d like to reiterate two basic facts. First, Yamato is an adult who is capable of making their own choices. Second, Fictional characters should be treated with the same amount of respect as living people due to the fact that they are analogs for real people.

To start I’d like to take a look at the quote. “Oden was a man, so I chose to become a man too.” This is a declaration of intent, and it is also a declaration of reasoning. In this sentence Yamato states that they chose to become a man, and that the reason was because Oden was a man.

I’ve noticed a lot of people taking issue with the reasoning behind this statement, but I’d argue that the reasoning isn’t actually very important. If we look at real world examples of trans people, we can see that there are many reasons why one might choose to transition. This ranges from gender dysphoria, intersex, and even simple personal preference. There are no “correct” or “incorrect” reasons for a person to feel the need to transition, and a person’s reasoning shouldn’t invalidate their choice.

Now once a person chooses to transition, it is followed by action. The type of action that is taken differs from person to person, but it usually leads to a behavioral change, a physical change, or both. In chapter 1052 we see Yamato make a decision that is a direct result of behavioral change.

When Nami asks to bathe together, Yamato’s first instinct is not just to decline, but to give a reason as to why they can’t (“this castle doesn’t have mixed baths”). This shows that Yamato has no problem with the notion of bathing with Nami, specifically, their problem lies with the fact that a man should not use a woman’s bath. This behavior only makes sense if Yamato sees themselves as a man, and thus, is taking action that reflects the choice they made when they decided to become a man.

Which means at in its simplest terms, Yamato chose to become a man, Yamato see’s themselves as a man, and Yamato makes decisions that reflect their choice to become a man.

It is out of respect for this that I believe that Yamato should be referred to as a trans man.

Lastly, a few other points of note: Kiku, who is a trans woman is allowed to bathe with the women, this shows respect for their preferred gender. Kiku’s who is a trans woman, has a vivre card that states their biological sex as male, therefore it would make sense for Yamato’s vivre card to state their biological sex as well. FacelessGiant (talk) 19:13, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Except Kiku's Vivre card doesn't state that she's male. It states that she's a "woman at heart" (the Japanese equivalent of "trans woman"). So it's two completely different situations here.

One thing you need to keep in mind is the difference between a desired reading and authorial intent. Even if it makes perfect sense to you that Yamato identifies as a man, if Oda says she's a woman, she's a woman. That's it. End of story. You can even call Oda "transphobic" for that if you want, but it's his world, and it's his decision how to label characters, not ours. The Pope 19:27, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Oda can say Yamato is a woman and we can still use male pronouns or gender-neutral pronouns to refer to Yamato. The two things are not mutually exclusive and we're not forbidden from choosing that course of action. Also, the information from the manga takes higher priority than past statements in the databooks. Databooks can be outdated. Damage3245 (talk) 20:35, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

The databook is...what, half a year old? Pretty sure Oda didn't suddenly have a radical change of mind in that time given Yamato's been in the series for years now. The only new relevant information is "Yamato chose to bathe with the boys", which is not in and of itself instant solidification of her true gender identity. Also, Oda said one thing but we're gonna say another thing" is...basically us as westerners writing our own fanfiction instead of sticking to the facts as Oda laid them out. The Pope 20:37, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm also new here but have been following this discussion for quite some time. While the Vivre card stating female is indeed a solid piece of evidence for Yamato being female, I think we have much stronger evidence in Yamato's words and actions in the manga itself. Yamato has repeatedly referred to himself as a man or as Kaido's son, every character in-universe also addresses and refers to Yamato in this way, Yamato said that they "became a man", and now Yamato chooses to bathe with the men instead of the women. Honestly, does it really matter whether or not Yamato has gender dysphoria? It has been made abundantly clear by Yamato himself that he views himself as a man. Even if that is stemming purely from a desire to become Oden, that is still how he views himself and chooses to present himself. K3fka (talk) 22:00, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Literally the only time Yamato ever referred to herself as a man was when she said "Oden was a man so I became one too". Literally ever other instance is just the phrase "Kaidou's son". No other claims of gender whatsoever. The Pope 22:03, 13 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but...do you seriously think Yamato's decision to bathe with the men, with the context that they don't mix genders in the baths, isn't a direct claim of gender?? You're acting like these two things are completely unrelated. The fact that he says he's joining the men at the same time as Kiku joining the women is the JOKE of the panel! No claims of gender? It's literally related TO gender. You're the one who's claiming that it's an Oden thing, without evidence. 02:46, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

I'm not saying it's an Oden thing. I'm saying it could be an Oden thing, and that we genuinely do not know. She didn't say "I'm going to bathe with the men because I'm a man," she said "I'm going to bathe with the men." That's literally it. Reading into it is entirely subjective. And until we do know for sure, it's better to stick to only facts that Oda has deliberately spelled out (that being "Yamato is female" in the vivre card). The Pope 03:05, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

"Arguments like "Kaido only refers to Yamato as his son because he wants Yamato to be Shogun" are entirely rooted in headcanon and not necessary on this wiki." Wano is based off the Edo period. It is not headcanon.

"The information from the latest chapter is not subjective. It's extremely direct information from Yamato themselves. " There was no direct info from Yamato because Yamato never stated any pronouns. SeaTerror (talk) 03:10, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

"I'm not saying it's an Oden thing. I'm saying it could be an Oden thing, and that we genuinely do not know. She didn't say "I'm going to bathe with the men because I'm a man," she said "I'm going to bathe with the men.""

You may not know this, but a lot of us do genuinely know this. I don't think there is any room for this to be an "Oden thing" unless you had direct evidence of Yamato stating "I'm going to bathe with the men because that's what Oden would do." Saying that information should be kept off the wiki because there are hypothetical possible alternatives is like saying Ashura Doji and Izo should be marked as still alive because there's a chance everyone mistook them for dead and they're just sleeping. There's a limit to how far we can refuse clear information being communicated to us in the manga. I say that we do know better and Yamato explicitly stating that they can't bathe with the women because of a no-mixed bathing rule, is as clear as you can get. At this point there is more evidence supporting Yamato viewing themselves as male than otherwise. Damage3245 (talk) 07:42, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

The Pope...So is Yamato's comment about the gendered baths...just a coincidence? Yamato literally says that they don't allow mixed baths. If Yamato did not view himself as a man, which he's expressly said he does, he would have bathed with the women. Unless you assume that he's just being hypocritical. Or, do you assume that "mixed baths" refers to one bath being mixed with soap from Udon and the other bath being being mixed with soap from Kibi and both soaps aren't allowed to cross into the other baths? Or something? You're being really weird avoiding the fact that Yamato directly acknowledged the gendered bathhouses. That's not speculation. It's not a subjective interpretation. That's what he SAYS! He doesn't even say what you're quoting, man. They don't allow mixed baths, so he's not mixing the baths. We also know for a fact that it's not an Oden thing, because he doesn't say it's an Oden thing. He says it's a gendered thing. That's what "mixed bath" means. As for facts that Oda has deliberately spelled out, here's a few reminders. Yamato calls himself a man. Other characters call him a man. He's called the son. He went into the men's bath with the expressed idea that the baths do not mix the genders. Oda even wrote (or technically Stephen Paul (or technically Vanessa Satone)) "Men's Bath" in the panel with the men's bath, where Yamato, the person who directly says women do not belong in the men's bath, is in the men's bath, and Oden has nothing to do with it. I'm sorry that I have to keep repeating it, but you keep deliberately avoiding it. The fact that Yamato is choosing to bathe with the men is, objectively, demonstrably, supported by the text itself, a gendered thing. That isn't subjective, because it's provable. This IS spelled out by Oda, and it's from a much more reputable source as well. Yamato is acknowledged and treated like a man. Oda wrote it that way. This fact cannot be disputed. Please acknowledge it. 07:54, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

If I still may put forth my opinion; while I still believe that Yamato identifies as female (as per the author's statements and such), I do agree the issue has become even more muddled than it used to be. Hence I propose a compromise to put this temporarily to rest; until Yamato outright confirmes in the manga how they view themselves (probably by dropping the "I'm Oden" Shtick) maybe we should just refer to Yamato with gender-neutral pronouns. That way at least the heated discussion can be calmed down just a bit. Timjer (talk) 08:07, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

uknownada, please read what I said closer.

The reason she preferred the men's bath when mixed baths weren't an option isn't clear. Maybe she identifies as a man. Maybe it's what Oden would do. We don't know, and I hate that I keep having to repeat myself.

Anyway, I believe her gender should remain the same throughout the article (nothing has changed; she's Kaidou's daughter, as Oda described her as, and she's female as Oda described her as). At most, an additional note should be added to the gender section about this whole bath thing and how it's just made the issue more confusing. The Pope 08:21, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

"Maybe it's this thing that's directly stated by the character and scene and supported by the consistent characterization, or maybe it's this completely unrelated thing that there is no evidence for. There's just simply no way to tell. Either could be plausible!" By the way, reading your comments back, you absolutely treated the idea that Yamato only joined the men's bath "because Oden would do it" as a matter of fact. Even saying that "it would be weird to party with icky girls" which is an unsubstantiated statement about Yamato AND Oden! And once again, you are deliberately avoiding the fact that Yamato joining with the men is a gendered thing. It's so explicit that you'd have to be purposefully misreading it. Which I guess you are if you're making up quotes like "I'm going to bathe with the men", which, by the way, if it was a real quote, would be great evidence that Yamato is a woman. Because logically, he wouldn't separate himself from the men if he didn't identify as one, because he literally says they don't mix baths. but maybe it's because Oden would do it idk 08:56, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Right now the talk page stands at 9 in overt favor of male and 3 in favor of female, with two users (Opera298 and Timjer) supporting a more gender neutral approach. Based on this, here is what I propose:
 * We generally write about Yamato in a gender neutral style eschewing pronouns.
 * If pronouns are used, they should be masculine (he/him/his)
 * Once this style has been implemented, users should not edit text solely to make it more or less gender neutral.
 * Yamato's article will acknowledge the discrepancies in how he is referred to, namely how other characters treat him as male while official material slants more toward female. It will be acceptable to refer to Yamato as the daughter of Kaidou, but son of Kaidou is also fine, better even.
 * This may be a bit more controversial, but I would propose adding *both* the Male and Female Characters categories to Yamato's page for the time being, given that Yamato has been identified as both in official material. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 09:25, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

I wanna make it clear, I'm in full support of masculine pronouns, but I'm also in support of a gender-neutral article. I think that may be best given how divisive the debate has become. With conflicting evidence between the manga and databook, it does feel like the only "correct" option. Yamato's discrepancies is absolutely necessary to point out. Of course, I also think this should be polled. And if Oda does outright give an answer via SBS or an interview, then maybe we can finally put this discussion to a definite close. 09:38, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Would it go to a poll with gender neutral too? SeaTerror (talk) 15:13, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Kaido's proposal. Nevertheless, we'll make the change on the Catalan wiki. 18:36, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

My preference is just referring to Yamato as a man, especially because so many people seem to be in favor of it, so I still want us to vote on that. But I think Kaido's proposal is good as a second option, even better than gender-neutral pronouns. DewClamChum (talk) 21:30, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Given that a clear majority definitely prefers going back to gender neutral at the very least, I amended Yamato's article to reflect this, as otherwise the page would reflect a current minority viewpoint for multiple weeks longer while we do a poll, which has been set up below. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 23:50, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Poll Discussion
Here is the preliminary draft of the poll. To be clear, there is not a "female outright" option on the poll as per what FANDOM staff specified in our last discussion on this topic. The gender neutral/female preferred option would essentially maintain the status quo that occurred following that discussion.

The start date of the poll is midnight next Monday; this will allow us to respond to any potential new information from Ch. 1053. In the meantime, post here if you have any questions, comments, or suggestions regarding this poll. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 23:50, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Gender neutral literally means they/them with no pronouns. They/them is the flat neutral option so that there are no preferred pronouns. SeaTerror (talk) 02:30, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Trivia permission or question
Because of ep 1009, is it possible to put the Trivia that Yamato (in the anime), is first female-based character to NOT express a "blank and aloof" upon seeing Franky's Iron Pirate?

That sounds rather trivial for trivia. Also probably not true. 02:41, 14 June 2022 (UTC)