Talk:Kikunojo

Saku
I was just wondering why the page is called Kiku when I see it translated as Saku. If someone could please explain that. 02:43, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

JB says Kiku. MS says Saku. Raw says 菊 (きく), not さく. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 04:02, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

Full name
Recently in chapter 939 (page 2) Hiyori called Kiku "Kikunojo". Cracker-Kun (talk) 23:44, April 12, 2019 (UTC)

Let's wait until it's used more to determine whether or not that's her real name. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 02:23, April 13, 2019 (UTC)

Gender
So, should we change all the shes to hes since Kiku is actually a man?Ghmorello (talk) 05:46, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

I thought the chapter indicated she is just posing as one. Regardless, it's way too unclear. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 05:50, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Actually, I think I misread it. I'm a little hesitant to jump forth immediately, but it should probably be changed. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 05:55, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Greetings from the SOF wiki hi, why don't we just make Kiku's page say they and call it a day. No misgendering = no problems boiz.

Regards, That Guy that Says Things (talk) 06:47, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

She identifies as a women so thus she is a woman who uses she/her. Giant Shy Guy (talk) 06:54, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

He said he is a "woman at heart" which is not exactly identifying as a woman. He uses a male version of "I", plus the Nine Red Scabbards in the original Japanese are specifically referred to as "Nine Red Scabbard Men" or the like. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 07:11, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Should he be considered an okama?
 * 🏴‍☠️👸🏻 (talk) 07:40, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

It was a disguise so it had nothing to do with transgenderism. SeaTerror (talk) 08:52, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

"Kokoro wa onna desu", "my heart/soul is a woman", I don't know how you could possibly be any more clear about her identifying as a woman. If a later chapter backsup it being entirely about disguise or art as an onnagata, it could be up for debate. But as it is I do think changing to he/him pronouns would be inappropriate (BLou-Lilie (talk) 09:32, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

But the thing is, he talks like a man (like with male pronouns and stuff) if I remember correctly. Why would we not use a male pronoun if the character himself uses male pronouns.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 09:43, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

The same reason Big Mom uses ore. She's been treated and refered to as a woman thus far, and admitted to being a woman at heart. There is no precedent thus far that he'd rather be called a man, regardless of the group she belongs in puts her under a name that specifices man. Until a later chapter reveales that she is only using it as diguise and really does prefer being treated male, then information thus far says she is a she. Giant Shy Guy (talk) 10:36, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

I just noticed despite being an active discussion the entire article has already been changed to male??? Giant Shy Guy (talk) 10:43, July 5, 2019 (UTC)


 * When asked if he's a man, Kikunojo replied "I am a woman at heart", so the least we know is that Kikunojo is a male. Whether or not he identified as something is to be determined so for now Kikunojo is a male. Rhavkin (talk) 11:31, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

In my opinion he is clearly an okama, I mean, he is a man who dresses like a woman, and who identifies himself as a woman. Cracker-Kun (talk) 12:53, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

"Kokoro wa onna desu", "my heart/soul is a woman" suggests that Kiku identifies as fenale, so we should be using she or they Are You Serious (talk) 14:51, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Also, on the topic of O-kiku using "sessha" a "male" first pronoun for samurai. Japanese pronouns don't work exactly like english pronouns. Like mentioned above, Big Mom uses "ore", which is also considered a "male" pronoun. It's also not an uncommon trope in manga in general for female characters to use "male" pronouns for a variety of reasons. But also in real life japanese, pronouns do not indicate what you identify as. It's like wearing clothes, a man can wear a dress when he wants to, but that doesn't mean he identifies as a woman. You can literally use "ore" in personal conversations but use "watashi" in professional settings (or other pronouns in whatever situations, this is just one example). It doesn't change your identity. So I don't think Kiku using "sessha" is proof she identifies as a man. If her "posing as a woman" was purely for the sake of disguise it would also make no sense for her to use a pronoun associated with samurai. So, like I said in my earlier post, I don't know how you could possibly be any more clear about her identifying as a woman than saying "my heart/soul is a woman". (BLou-Lilie (talk) 15:14, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

"Ore" is occasionally used by female characters. As far as I know, "sessha" is not used in the same way. His usage of "sessha" was when he literally said "I am a samurai", so there is no issue about him keeping his cover since he effectively blew it there no matter what.

Jaimini's points out another thing indicating Kiku is male: in Japanese, the Nine Red Scabbards are called Akazaya Ku-nin Otoko, Otoko obviously meaning male to connotate they're called the "Nine Red Scabbard Men", which translations leave out for clarity. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 15:36, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I'm sorry but, obviously you will find more instances of "ore" being used by female characters. It is one of the most common first pronouns in general. I think it'll be hard to make a long list of characters that use sessha in general, let alone finding an instance where there could be an argument over the characters gender identification. That doesn't dispute pronouns not necessarily indicating one's identity anyway.

And yes I am well aware of the groups name. However I don't think it is relevant to Kiku's personal identity? The name was probably not chosen by the members themselves, and in this very chapter we have someone assuming "Kikunojo" as a male samurai. The public's view is irrelevant to Kiku's personal identity. The name could also possibly have come from a time before Kiku's "coming out", so to say. Either way, I think it's more of a meta narrative device of Oda doing his classic foreshadowing, to let the readers suspect Kiku being a Man or Trasnwoman before giving clarification. Just like her name is a reference to a famous onnagata. None of this holds any water against Kiku literally saing she is a woman at heart.

Even if you're very adamant about it not being clear cut, why should changing all pronouns to he/him before getting any proof of her identifying as male, which there is none, be more important than possibly trans erasure? I really feel like this was jumping the gun on a very delicate topic. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 16:07, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Because Kikunojō is not a trans woman. Unfortunately, Oda-sensei is not very well versed in trans anything, which is why we get okama, which follow the same conflation of drag queens and trans folk that plagues the trans community in the United States. He is based on a combination of onnagata, who were also frequently male prostitutes on the side (and Kiku, or chrysanthemum, was a euphemism for anus, particularly with regard to male-male sex) and beautiful pages like Mori Ranmaru (apocryphally speaking) who served their lords both inside and outside of the bedroom. As a kabuki fan, Oda-sensei would definitely like the onnagata element, and references to the Warring States period are par for the course in Japan. At absolute best, he is an okama, which is an extremely problematic identity and a term that is considered derogatory among the LGBTQ+ community in Japan today. 58.89.146.212 16:23, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

What about waiting the needed time for confirmation, no matter how much that time is, to say whether Kiku is a "he" or a "she"? And while we wait keeping her as a "she"? Would that hurt someone? 16:24, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

If that really makes more people comfortable, I'm okay with it. From the perspective of Japanese history and culture, especially Edo period culture (the basis of Wano Kuni), there's no real question as to what Kikunojō is referencing. But if people are concerned about trans erasure (a legitimate concern), then keep the pronouns as female. But there should be more information in the trivia about the various references to male-male sexuality, and people should be prepared to change it should the word of God say that Kikunojō is male. 58.89.146.212 16:29, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Even Ivankov's page refer to his as he. The category shouldn't change the page since he is 100% not a female. Rhavkin (talk) 18:47, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

How come there is a back and forth battle of changing the pronouns, yet there's no further arguments for using he/him on the actual talk page? If you're so adamant about using he/him, give a proper reasoning instead of just quietly changing back the pronouns. The latest post was "okay with" keeping it as she/her and no one argued further? If you don't want to commit to either just use they/them, but, I'm sorry, this is getting really immature... If it's still about the "sessha", japanese pronouns don't work like english. You cannot inheritely stick one gender to a pronoun. Gendered pronouns don't exist in japanese the way the do in english. Pronouns indicate your status or role in a given istuation. You can change them dependingly. It's like changing clothes. A man can wear a dress without indentifying as a woman. A woman can wear a three piece suit without indentifying as a man. You'd use a more timid pronoun like "watashi" when talking to your boss, instead of "ore",which you might use in a private setting. Associations to a specific gender go hand in hand with what societal norms are expected from that gender. "Sessha" is considered a male pronoun because samurai are supposed to be men. Kiku using sessha does not indicate she identifies as a man. She uses it because she is a samurai, much like the other samurai use it. Kiku saying she is a woman at heart however, is a clear indication that she identifies as a woman. Further more she actually says this as a correction of someone calling her a man. If there's any other arguments, I'd be happy to discuss further. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 20:29, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Well, technically speaking, since the wiki tries not to assume stuff, we shouldn't assume that Kikunojo wants to be referred to as "she." The most concrete and set in stone evidence is that she is actually a male. The quote in question that "My heart/soul is that of a woman" is debatable to whether it discredits her being a he. One can interpret that as a correction of Chopper calling her a man, but it can also be interpreted as a confirmation to Chopper's question, such that "Yes I am a man, but my heart is that of a woman." All we know for sure is that she is an actual male and so based on minimal use of assumption, we would have to use "he/him" until further clarification.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 21:23, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Heavily disagree. Precisely because of the "woman at heart" comment coming as a correction to being called a male she should be reffered to as female until it should be directly contradicted by Oda, which I hope will never happen.

Elizabello 2 (talk) 21:31, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

To be honest, this is a difficult for me to find an answer to. Based on my quick research, Kiku is a transwoman (born a man, but identifies as a female (at heart)), so I think he feels to be a woman. Pronouns are not something common in Japanese, so unless Oda does something in what should be used —though I think he’s fine with either or— I don’t know what to say.OishiLover75 (talk) 21:39, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

I don't know how "My heart/soul is a woman" could be interpreted any other way. But alright, I'm curious. Just how much more explicit do you think it's gonna get in a japanese shonen manga? Because I feel like you're setting an impossible standard. If Kiku does identify as a man, that'd be very easy to clarify. But to be more explicit than "My Heart is a Woman"? To me it's very much clear and I don't know how much more obvious it would need to be. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 21:52, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Ah also, like I said, if you just wanna be safe either way, just use they/them? Definitely better than the edit war. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 21:54, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Remind me why “they” is a good pronoun. I always thought that was more for plural usage, or fusions involving a male and a female in Steven Universe’s case.OishiLover75 (talk) 22:06, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

They/them can be considered a non binary/ gender neutral pronoun. Funny you mention Steven Universe, not all Fusions use they/them, Garnet for example uses she/her. It's not necessarily intended to be plural for the fusions. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 22:14, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Although "they" is considered by some to be the best choice when not assuming gender, that usually is only the case in when you don't know the subject. For example: "That person broke something. They should fix it." However, in this case, we know who the subject is, and in the eyes of the everyday common English language, that is a weird use of a plural pronoun when using it in the article and it's going to stand out as weird. Also, calling Kiku transgender is putting a modern agenda on a character in a manga from a country that is based off of ancient Japan. The safest way to characterize Kiku is how we define Izo, a cross-dressing man.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 22:19, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

I believe the term is just meant for identification purposes, not for a case of a social agenda. However, I do see how Oda is showing corruption of society against what gender want to be.OishiLover75 (talk) 22:25, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Should stay as he/him as always been the case with similar characters (plus Kikunojo was in disguise) and for reasons said above. Also funny that the only ones making a big deal about this are people who only joined today but never raised a fuss about Ivankov's article. -Groosenat0r (talk) 22:30, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Ivankov isn't the same. He identifies as both a man and a woman and his default form is the male form so it makes sense to refer to him as a man. Kiku identifies as a woman so I don't see why we wouldn't refer to her as a woman. DewClamChum (talk) 22:42, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Plus I think Kiku expressing herself. The dress may not be a disguise.OishiLover75 (talk) 22:49, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Ok, so, I'm just gonna skip the irrelevant comment and tackle this one by one. Isn't it a little silly to refer to transgender as a modern agenda, while also talking about cross-dressing? Aren't both modern terms? Also no one called Kiku literally transgender. We don't need to use the term if it's too modern. Kiku said she is a woman at heart. To me, that says it all. I kinda missed out on adressing it before, but Kiku does not use sessha only after revealing herself as a samurai, she uses it earlier when introducing herself to Luffy and Zoro, while still "in disguise". Also, if you really wanna go with assuming the absolute minimum: Kiku never confirmed being a man. The Japanese literally only says as a respone "My heart/soul/mind is a woman" to the question of whether or not she is a man. I know some translations put a "Yes, but..." there, but that is not in the original. It's an assumption. Kiku says she's a woman, that is all. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 23:07, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

I normally don't mess with the wiki, but I was curious and wanted to see the discussion.

Honest question: what do you guys think someone means when they say "I am a woman at heart/soul"?

Do you think it means they're a man? The character themselves made an open statement on their gender, who are we to say they are wrong? It seems like you guys need a written statement from Oda to believe this character is female, but nobody asks for the same when we talk about cisgender characters.

Lumiruka (talk) 23:16, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Just gonna drop this in real quick: "The clearest sign of Kikunojo's gender is him referring to himself with sessha (拙者 or せっしゃ?), an archaic form of "I" used by male samurai.[8]" Also why did you edit Blou-Lilie's post? Groosenat0r (talk) 23:44, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Remember, samurai back in feudal Japan were men. It was not accepted for a female to be one. That’s why just because she said sheesha, it just refers to her being a samurai. OishiLover75 (talk)00:06, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

That literally has nothing to do with Kiku. This arc is based off of feudal Japan. Transgender is a modern term that did not exist back then. SeaTerror (talk) 00:44, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Transgender, as a term, may not have existed back then, but trans people still existed. I'm no historian, but Wikipedia does mention you could trace trans people in history all the way to the Edo Period. And they're everywhere in History, two-spirit people are an example if you're in the US.

And sorry, if I did edit anyone's comment, it was not my intention. I opened the edit window and reloaded it before pasting my reply to ensure I didn't erase anyone's comments (since I had it opened for a long while), but I guess that wasn't enough. I'm certain you could find a handful things that did not exist in the feudal period, but are in Wano. Besides, trans people exist in One Piece (Ivankov and Inazuma are good examples), so I don't see why Wano shouldn't have them.

Transgender is a term that may not have existed, but the people did exist. Just like how gay people were around way before 'homosexual' was coined as a term.

02:25, July 6, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

Okama literally means transvestite, not transgender. SeaTerror (talk) 02:27, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Kiku may not be a Okama, but just a transgender person. Plus I heard people with transgender don’t want to be confused with transvestites. OishiLover75 (talk)02:45, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

While I do want to challenge the claim that Okama means "transvestite" specifically...

Ivankov's gender is *offiicially* Newkama, which is something specific to One Piece. According to the wiki itself, the Newkama say they have gone "beyond gender". Even without finding a real-life equivalent term (which I know, for a fact, exists, the term being "non-binary gender"), you can simply apply the meaning of transgender to this, which is "identifying as a gender which you were not assigned with at birth".

I don't think I need to explain further, but the newkama are, by definition, trans people.

And yeah, transgender isn't the same as transvestite. It's not about dressing, but about your gender.

02:46, July 6, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

Being based off of feudal Japan, there is no concept of "transgender," they are simply men that cross-dress like woman. No matter how much one's inner heart was a woman, no one went around asking people to refer to them as "she" and no one did either. Also, Kikunojo is a reference to Segawa Kikunojo, the Kabuki actor that cross-dressed as female for his roles. No one refers to any of the seven generations of Kikunojo as "she." Nightmare Pirates (talk) 03:01, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

She is 'a woman at heart' and is referred to with feminine honorifics ('o-Kiku'), so her pronouns are implied to be she/her despite her using a traditional samurai (male) pronoun for herself ('sessha', 拙者) but Big Mom uses 'ore (俺)' and is still she/her. Sessha is not conclusively male, it's just that all samurai were male so it's a presumed-male pronoun, but so is 'ore'. Using 'he/him' and calling her a 'man' seems like intentionally applying western gender analysis to how Oda is presenting o-Kiku, but seems like that's not the majority view on this wiki for now. (edit: thanks User:Lumiruka and User:BLou-Lilie for your posts below, just read and saw we are not the only ones who think this he/him switch from she/her is not justified and should be swapped back immediately) PersephoneQuarius (talk) 03:04, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

I think Kikunojo is also a reference to the yokai Yuki-onna, since she is referred to as “The Lingering Snow”.OishiLover75 (talk)03:11, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Not once I recall saying there is a concept of transgender in One Piece, only that we can equate it to real-life concepts, and that newkama consider themselves to be "beyond gender". That much is fact, not opinion.

Anyway, since we were referring to Kiku until we found out she has a penis, it's safe to say Kiku was either referred to as female until now by absolutely everyone they met (Kin'emon, Sanji, Zoro), or, at the very least, gender-neutral pronouns translated as "female".

I'm not saying Kiku's gonna go around asking people to call them female, that seems to be a modern concept of what "trans" is. Transgender still existed back in Edo Period, though, even if it was not what we see today.

Back on topic: if the original japanese raws refer to Kiku in female terms (excluding "sessha", as I think we have established there is no other pronoun a samurai would be using, correct me with the "female equivalent of sessha" if I am wrong), especially after Chapter 948, it will be more than clear that Kiku is a trans woman (i.e. girl with a penis), and this discussion will be over.

It will likely be more productive to wait until then to take a conclusion, but do we really need to know more than what Kiku told us herself? That she is a "female at heart"? She didn't say "I'm a man, but...", she said "female at heart". Do we really need more than that? Why? Do you think people in Wano ask each other what's in their pants before deciding the gender of whom they are talking to?

As for the Kikunojo reference, I think that just makes it more clear Kiku is a "girl with a boy body". That is a common depiction of trans women, even if we have recently been finding it's not the best way to put it as.

Also, do remember: there were Onnagata who behaved socially as females even outside of the Kabuki theaters. Isn't living as a gender the same as being that gender? Is that not, literally, what being trans means: to be a gender that isn't what you were called just because of what's in your pants?

I think I was pretty clear. If we still disagree, then I think we can at least agree on waiting to see the terms used to refer to Kiku after episode 948, and change (or maintain) the pronouns accordingly.

03:27, July 6, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

The discussion will be over when a poll happens most likely. The issue with that is the majority of people in support of calling Kiku female can't vote due to the wiki's voting rules. SeaTerror (talk) 03:37, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

It could be interesting to make a poll in the One Piece subreddit. Is there a particular reason as to why we would be unable to accept that?

03:49, July 6, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

The subreddit isn't part of the wiki. SeaTerror (talk) 04:51, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

" Being based off of feudal Japan, there is no concept of "transgender," " I don't know about you, but I'm not in feudal Japan. They also don't have aconcept of Devil Fruit users, yet the wiki refers to them as such. They also have no concept of "gun", yet we all know a gun when we see one. We wouldn't need someone in-universe pull out a dictionary confirming they have a concept for "homosexual" in order for us, real life human beings, to be able to see a homosexual relationship and recognize it as such. Kiku is the definition of transgender, whether or not the concept and recognition of them is confirmed or not. We, as the readers, posses the ability to see and recognize that Kiku identifies as a woman, she, to reiterate, says that "[Her] Heart is a Woman" (Kokoro can mean a variety of things, heart, soul, mind, feelings, but they all proof the point). She doesn't even give the question of whether or not she is a man the benfit of ''confirmation or denial. ''The only response is that she is a woman. At this point, the gender you adress Kiku with, it entirely about your own personal bias. And I choose to refer to someone explicitly identifying as a woman, as such. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 06:26, July 6, 2019 (UTC)) Sorry for some reason I was logged out, but it was me all along (BLou-Lilie (talk) 06:26, July 6, 2019 (UTC))