Forum:SeaTerror/Parts 1-5

SeaTerror has been arguing against the final results vote polls lately, even with the votes are clearly against what he wants personally. He insists on using the extra "u" simply based on "Hyouzou" when it was already decided to not use the extra "u" unless Oda states otherwise, and among other things. He stubbornly makes changes without first explaining, leading to editing wars, and his attitude of response is not exactly polite. It has been suggested that he is to be banned for one month. Please discuss about your opinions on how to deal with him. 07:50, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

Discussion
Can you go into detail regarding "among other things"? Preferably with links so people can exactly understand what you are referring to?

Because he didn't edit the Hyozo page for months and there is no talkpage activiy either? 10:00, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

Since Hyouzou was romanized shortly after the discussion ended, he tried to argue that all names should have the u in them with Hyouzou being the basis. He's been rude on forums, like the raws and scans one. He starts edit wars without talking about anything first. 20:35, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

The trouble I would have is that I've been out of it, I don't quite like talking about memebrs I vaguely known and while you've spoken out, we've got little evidence in front of us from recent memories. From the incidents I have had with Sea, yeah there have been disagreements more so then most members but its not constant. Heck when it comes to that, I've been more of a problem recently since I popped back into existence from out of no where due to net loss. If there is a problem with Sea, we need his side of things here. One-Winged Hawk 20:46, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

DP > That's not true, he did not argued that all names should have double u's, he wants macrons, and that makes sense. Here is the discussion. About rudeness, I don't recall him having been more rude recently than before, and ditto for edit wars—but I wasn't really active lastly. What are you and Yatanogarasu referring to exactly?

Where is this forum even located? I only saw it because of luck. I don't see anything wrong with arguing against poll results. By that logic every single person in every single country should be arrested for arguing that their elected leader should not have been elected. Also show me where I was rude in the RAW discussion. I did argue that before and still think they should be all double u's, however I flat out said macrons should be used because it is the most neutral. SeaTerror 02:55, August 13, 2011 (UTC)

The problem is, you keep insisting us to do it your way, even after polls have been passed. You keep talking about it, complaining, to the point that we cannot ignore, and not in a nice way. 04:16, August 13, 2011 (UTC)

Just because you don't like a decision that's been passed by vote without discrepency doesn't mean you can argue against it. You gave your opinion in the discussion section, the poll was held, after that you can't do anything. A decision was made, even if you don't like it. A while ago you complained about Klobis moving pages without supplying reasons. By getting rid of what is potentially interesting or relevant trivia without a reason why, you're doing the same thing he was doing. Then someone undoes it, and then the edit war starts. Your latest example would be the bit of trivia on Soran's page. Decisions that get passed are finite, and unless there is something seriously wrong with the decision, like one that could affect the whole wiki, there is no reason in arguing against them because it won't accomplish anything and only makes you look like you don't care what the outcome of the vote is. 05:37, August 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * (Hm, I'm not sure, but it seems you mean one cannot discuss once a poll has been held. That's not true, you can never forbid people to discuss even after a vote. Especially when time has passed and new elements have appeared, like in the Hyouzou case. And if you think voted decisions are finite unless there are serious problems, it would be quite important that you discuss it here.)

What I meant was he's argued against polls almost the second they're over after a decision has been passed, as if it weren't over and done and no decsision was made. He just ignores the results and presses his argument. 14:45, August 13, 2011 (UTC)

"Just because you don't like a decision that's been passed by vote without discrepency doesn't mean you can argue against it."

So you mean you want a totalitarian wikia instead of a democratic one. Big Brother does not belong on here. There is nothing wrong with arguing against results. The only thing that would make it wrong is if I changed everything back to the way it was after a vote passed. SeaTerror 05:57, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * Arguing is one thing, but arguing non-stop and clearly going one argument (yours) against 10 people who voted against you... The way you argue is cynical and rude. We try to be polite and accepting here. 06:51, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

I just got one more thing to add now: look at SeaTerror's comment in Talk:Black Rhino FR-U IV, where he had suggested that all vehicles are to be merged into one page. He said a "small discussion" in the Talk:Vehicles, but in truth he simply placed a statement and nobody talked about it anymore. That's a sign of arrogance and rudely expecting everyone to follow what you say. 21:08, August 19, 2011 (UTC)

That is how you interpetate (correct?) it. I disagree, I think he is misunderstood on many occasions.

What other way is there to interpret it? He lied and said a discussion took place to try to get his way. If a discussion didn't take place, then why say that one did? A statement is not a discussion. 18:31, August 21, 2011 (UTC)

No I did not lie. That was your fault for not even looking in the right place and then trying to claim I lied about it. http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Fighting_Techniques SeaTerror 21:43, August 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hey,when does the vote end?--

Never it seems. SeaTerror 18:04, August 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * There should have been a date on this... Why don't we vote to just close it now? Lol. One-Winged Hawk 19:34, August 29, 2011 (UTC)

HOW LONG??????????????????...can I assume the poll is closed?....--

So he got lucky. 17:23, September 1, 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't call a 9-5 poll "lucky". 17:52, September 1, 2011 (UTC)

Voting
POLL IS NOW CLOSED

Should SeaTerror be banned for 1 month?


 * Yes
 * 1)  20:11, August 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * 2)  21:06, August 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * 3) Klobis 11:21, August 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * 4) Imhungry4444 09:24, August 23, 2011 (UTC) im just being an ass seaterror, its nothing personal
 * 5) Ruxax 09:07, August 25, 2011 (UTC)


 * No
 * 1)  (I don't always appreciate his attitude but that's not worth a ban)
 * 2)  20:47, August 19, 2011 (UTC) (There is no rule against arguing and "he is rude" is too subjective, especially without clear references, quotes etc.)
 * 3)  23:06, August 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * 4)  I agree with Jinbe
 * 5) Yountoryuu 16:53, August 21, 2011 (UTC) I think one month is too long. I say one week max.
 * 6)  06:04, August 22, 2011 (UTC).//not a good idea//
 * 7) One-Winged Hawk 08:56, August 23, 2011 (UTC) Rather then banning, someone should be talking to Sea and getting any matters settled. I've seen worst editors around the wikia system.
 * 8)  (..doesnt matter ok)

Part 2 Begins
Due to his insulting ways and editing war on World Timeline, SeaTerror is facing another ban. Please discuss. 10:28, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

Part 2 Discussion
Yes, SeaTerror was a good editor, like DrunkSamurai, but as time goes, both of them start to insult others and arrogantly change things back without good reason, causing conflicts. The prime example is [ history of this page], you can see his insults above his editing war. 10:39, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, first, there are always one or more parts involved in an edit war, and unless one party strictly acts against a vote/decsion made by the community, the problem can't be simply placed on one's head alone. As far as I can see it, there is no decision made on the matter, and we all know that a vote is necessary if the regulars don't agree. And ST is certainly a regular. So the topic itself can't warrant a ban if we are honest.

Now to insulting other users. I browsed through the history and the revamp discussion and filtered what I think could be regarded as "insulting".

From the discussion:

1) You're the only one who considers them approximate. You ignore the fact that if he wanted it to be approximate he would have said the word about. Look up the word about in the dictionary. You might learn something in your life for once.

2) You're a retard who doesn't know what a troll is. Quit being a fucking idiot. Jesus Christ. If Oda intended it to be approximation then he would have implied so by putting the word "about" before every date. You want to change Roger's death now too?

From the history:

Quit drinking so much and read the talk page for once.

Klobis is the troll who ignores ongoing debates.

So, uhm...I'm usually against banning people, and especially not trusted regulars like SeaTerror..but I understand that the second comment goes a bit far.

Personally, I think if Seaterror would (honestly) apologize to the users offended a ban isn't necessary. However, I was not the one insulted and I think only they can accept or decline an apology.

If he doesn't, one week should be enough. 11:41, January 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * I added another sentence.
 * Ah it was already listed, sorry Jinbe...

I agree with an apology from ST towards the ones he insulted, he should just with a warning this time. A troublemaker from time to time he is, but getting him banned is still a little too much. I would go with an apology and a warning, and only if he doesn't agree on some conditions, I will agree with a ban.

And just to clarify, with an honest apology I don't mean showing up on the forum with a "sorry". Talk pages must be visited, preferably leaving more than one line of regret. 11:57, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

Not a ban. He is a regular user, a ban would be bad. Not a good enough reason to ban him. If you warned him he would have stopped. I know its bad to talk like that in a talkpage, but if you warn him, he'll understand.. He is not a kid. I dunno what happened with DrunkSamurai, but SeaTerror only proved his point strongly.. Talk to him and he'll understand. No need to ban him, even for a week.

I think a big issue is his way of handling a discussion, well I don't know if he deserve a ban for this reason, but I think is far more important that a random insult. I think it's a problem, because when he stubbornly keep his position while negating everybody's opinion and never provide some reasonable argumentations, he just stall the discussion for weeks and force the community to vote on matters that can be solved just by talking (and still complaining after the issue is solved). I off course don't expect that everybody agrees on the same thing because we can have different opinions, but when I was involved in discussions with SeaTerror I often received a "Nope, that's wrong, you have to prove it"-like answer every time I tried to argument my opinion. Here all his answers on the World Timeline talk page: Other examples are Mt. Colubo and Shirley discussions. Sincerely, after a while you fell like giving up and I start wondering if he is mocking us (obviously I hope he doesn't). In a discussion you argue your opinion and try to convince the others that you are right, but you should take in account that you may be wrong too (of course it counts for me too) and if things don't go your way get over it, I think everybody in this wiki has one or two things that don't like but the wiki agreed to do so. I don't like having a tense relationships between users, so I hope we will solve this issue soon enough.

I think that this is the second time that he has been nominated for a ban, and if the first time acts as a warning (and he didn't change his ways) a ban is what we need. We need consequences for people that do something wrong, or else people will know that they can get away with it. SeaTerror is a great editor, but sometimes he is counterproductive to the interests of the wiki, as shown several times in various edit wars and talk pages. A straight ban might take off the desire to argue the way he does. 13:30, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

Mermaid Princess was a recent page I had a go at Sea for. Everyone on the talk page discussed and decided for merging it with Poseidon. I made the move after it was forgotten and while I did check things were alright, I also had to improve Poseidon so it fitted in with the rest of the wikia better. A little while later to my shock the link from Poseidon to Mermiad Princes, which I had removed due to the redirect, was back on its page, I followed the link and foun Merimaid princess was restored back to its unmerged stage. Sea had undone my edit.

Sea's excuse for undoing my edit was I hadn't moved all information over, however, I had checked everything related to the subject matter was on Poseidon before the merge. Still, simply undoing the entire redirectfrom Mermiad Princess to Poseidon was not helpful and Sea should have just edited and moved anything I left on Mermiad Princess when I redirected it to Poseidon. This is the most logically solution to the problem; undoing my edit just caused me to get peeved and have to repeat my edit to correct his undo.

Still, as annoying as it is, its still no grounds for me to side against Sea. We can't ask all editors to be perfect or to always do the sensible thing. I've already told Sea myself I didn't like what he did and as I am concern, its a minor issue in this case and not something I've found worth either arguing with or wanting him banned over.

HOWEVER, I've encountered this problem with Sea before, in that rather then just sort and discuss things with the editor or even correct the mistake, he rushes to undo the edit. :-/ One-Winged Hawk 16:47, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

First one obviously no excuse. Second one you can read the edit history for that one. I snapped after he kept calling me a troll without even reading the talk page. Third one isn't as bad as it could have been but still something. I don't see how the 4th one can count as an insult, however. Also Leviathan we are allowed to bring up past discussions after about 3 months I think was decided. Maybe it was 4 or 6. Or that was just the blog edit debate for all of those months. Now obviously this isn't the place for it but I'm just saying. Also what about Shirley? SeaTerror 17:42, January 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * I think some of this is to do with a clash of egos and opinions, nothing more. I haven't seen Sea led a campaigne against anyone so while the insults are uncalled for and rude, I think its a little weak to call up the insults. Even then, the most its worth is a minor offence and honestly... Those insults from what I read here aren't that big of a deal. Sea isn't stringing a hundred swear words together in a line or anything. :-/ One-Winged Hawk 17:55, January 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with you, but is an apology really too much to ask for? 18:13, January 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah, sorry Shirley has nothing to do in this discussion, I instinctively put it together with Colubo. I just bring it to remark that you usually don't explain yourself very much and keep denying everybody's opinion while not provide counter-argumentations. As I said I fell this aspect more a "problem" then just some random insult, since it's this behavior that leads to "harsh terms" by both parts, although I don't know if a ban can be issued for this reason.

Not good reasons for a ban. If users have a problem with his behavior just tell him to not doing it or to apologize.

Just Give Him A Warning And Make Him Apologize

I don't care about him getting banned or not, and forced apologizes wouldn't change anything. I'd just appreciate that he learn how to debate.

Levi perfectly summed up the problem. I spent a lot of time trying to explain each point using different formulations, considering each of his arguments... just to get one-liners totally ignoring any point I made, and even enjoining me to check a dictionary so I learn something for once... Seriously? That's called trolling—even if his motivations are sincere. For the wiki system to work, we're supposed to ignore this.

Attention: that does not mean we're silencing him, not at all. Nothing keeps him from disproving our arguments. Nothing keeps him from opening polls to question something. But if we must open a poll before taking any decision just because one single person says "do not want!!!!11" without even discussing, that's just not possible.

That's why I asked the admins to tell him to stop reverting. This wasn't a ban request; that would be useless anyway. I don't know what makes you think he's not a kid LPK, but in my opinion he totally behaves as such—and I don't think he'd understand why he's banned anyway. There's no solution, he just needs to learn to be less self-centered and closed-minded; only time can do that.

I don't really have a problem with the reverting, but the thing that bugs me is the utter refusal to negotiate. There have been a few cases when it has basically been SeaTerror vs. five or more editors, even if they have decent evidence. While this is not "traditional" trolling, it is still inhibiting progress and preventing the wiki from operating smoothly. I don't know if this warrants a ban, but I think that he should at least consider reconsidering his behavior. 23:44, January 10, 2012 (UTC)

This is by far not the first time this kind of thing has happened, and I'm not just talking about the first time banning him came up. @Tuckyd and LPK, if it were that easy, we wouldn't be having this discussion. This isn't something that can be solved with something as useless as a miniscule slap on the wrist like you're suggesting. It needs something a little heavier. I don't know if banning will help, but it's sure as hell worth a shot. 01:07, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

Well, its only ban or no ban... Seems like this arguement is gonna lead to another vote.. I understand how Sff feels as he was the one who argued with him.. But, ban is just too much. Unless its only for 1 week.. I dunno.. And S eaTerror is not a new user, or some random troll. He is here more than a year.. Its just the same thing as the previous discussion..

I think 3 day ban is resonable

Nothing's gonna change in 3 days, so no.

Somehow i doubt that SeaTerror will change no matter how long of a ban we give him. 03:13, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

Your Probably Right lets say (since he has 2 strikes) 3rd stike yer' out! ok

Well, stubborn as he is, if he insists on editing war and even insulting people, and refuses to apologize (or apologizes and then does it again) then who agrees that is unacceptable behavior? 03:23, January 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * You will have to open a poll on this matter, but if he doesn't apologize (honestly) in the next 3 days, one week seems fine by me. 08:43, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with Yatanogarasu on this one. 03:44, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

I agree

Ok then, what is the punishment going to be? 04:08, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

1 week would do nothing to him. But let's take a vote like before.

A vote on whether to ban him or not, and decide the consequences depending on the result of the poll, right? 13:45, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

We should structure the poll so that a vote for the longer bans also counts for a vote for the shorter bans if the longer ban doesn't pass. Otherwise the shortest ban might lose to the no ban faction despite the ban faction having more people because people can't agree on exactly how long they want him banned. Bastian964 01:28, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Also as people have said this is based on a long history of reverting while refusing to talk to the others (with occaisional insults, I can look some of them up if anyone doubts me). He has had many warnings from Yata warning him that he might be banned if he continues to a failed banning (which only encouraged him since he basically learned that he wouldn't be punished for his behavoir). I'm for a nice long month ban, but I'm aware most people only want 3 days to a week. Bastian964 01:41, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Shall we take a vote then

@One-Winged Hawk: Last time we voted you said instead of a banning, someone should talk to him and get him to change his ways. Well, he was talked to and nothing changed. I don't know if this will effect your opinion or not but I felt it needed to be said.Bastian964 01:49, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm... you guys forgot to write when the vote will end...

Every vote lasts 2 weeks I think. The vote "rules" are "illegal". That is not how any poll works on this site. It wasn't even started by an admin. Remember the voting rules forum? You're saying if somebody voted for 6 months then their vote would have also counted for 3 months. SeaTerror 19:11, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

No, their vote would only count for three months if six months did not succeed. Think of it as they are voting for you to get banned for as long as possible but if they can't get that exact length they are willing to settle for less as long as you get banned. As for the rest of your complaints, they are quite frankly ridiculous. Admins don't have to start votes and vote structures depend on the specific matter at hand (not to mention that DancePowderer has voted and thus read and implicitly sanctioned the rules). Bastian964 00:48, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Now it is 4 days longer until the 26 not the 22 you happy?

It ends on 22.. Dont change it... Its plenty of time to decide..

The date had to be changed. SeaTerror was right on one thing atleast, whoever put up the original vote time did so in violation of voting rules. Votes must last 2 weeks, whereas the time given was ten days. Bastian964 01:23, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Nope. It ends on 22.. Plenty of time to vote. And doesnt matter if the 'creator' changed it..

I was the one who originally put the date up stop your bickering and I do think 10 days is plenty of time Bastian

LPK: We have rules on this wiki on how long votes must last. If you don't like those rules, you should start a forum to get them changed. Until such time as you succeed at that, votes must meet the required time. Bastian964 01:28, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

I've never heard of any voting rules aside from the 3 month/300 edit requirement. Link or it didn't happen. 01:30, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Bastian... What?? -- We have rules on this wiki on how long votes must last-- We decide that when we choose a date. You just cant change it when the fuck you want? Ok? You just cant decide to change it to 4 days longer like that.

You will note that the date was added long after the vote was started. However, I really don't care whether the vote is ten days or 14 days, as long as it meets forum guidelines and if I remember correctly (and SeaTerror of all people seem to agree with me) votes must be 2 weeks long. If that is wrong, I'm more than happy to have a ten day vote. Bastian964 01:41, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

If you won't link that 'forum' then no, sorry..

As I said, I really don't care how long it is, I just want to make sure it meets guidelines. As I seem unable to find any guideline related to how long a vote must last, I was clearly mistaken. Sorry for the confusion. Bastian964 01:50, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

No I am right. Basically if it was reversed you would say that 5 people voted for 2 weeks while 2 people voted for a month. So you're saying their vote counts like that. Then if somehow no ban got say 8 votes but 2 weeks got 4 and a month got 7 you would count the votes altogether. That is now how voting works on this wikia at all. SeaTerror 02:31, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

The voting method now that I look at it looks completely stupid! It should go like this:

Do you want ST to be banned?

Yes

No

If you have chosen yes, then for how long?

Period of time 1

Period of time 2

Period of time 3

First ask if the answer is yes or no! Some people might think that all option votes are EQUAL, to avoid confusion and to have a normal and good decision, I demand a revote!

I agree with Rici on this one. On the current vote, if each section of the "for the ban" gets less votes than the "no ban", but the total amount of "for ban" votes is higher than the "no ban" votes, who wins? 02:58, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

If the no ban gets more votes than the ban for a month but not the total amount of votes for his banning than the votes for one month go to the next level, 2 weeks, if that doesn't beat no ban than all of those votes are taken and combined with ine week and so on and so on.

Nope. That is not how it works. The votes only count for that one particular poll option. Of course the person can change their vote if they want to until the vote is over. SeaTerror 04:27, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Technically, you're the one on trial, so you cannot go against the rules. Anyways, if the number of people wanted you blocked exceeds the number of people who want you to stay, then regardless of how long each person wants you blocked, you should be blocked. 06:02, January 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * This wiki does not tolerate vandalism and edit wars without proper negotiations. You got off lucky that we even put a no ban option to give you a chance altogether. 06:10, January 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * "Lucky" that we put a no ban option up? Keep your personal vendetta out of this Yata. 12:13, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Wrong. That isn't the rule since that was never part of the voting rules. If you do it like this for this vote then you do it like that for the rest. Plus Bastion was the one who did it. Not an admin so it doesn't count for more than one reason. That is not how a vote works. If the person votes for one thing that means they are voting for that one thing and not the other thing. SeaTerror 06:12, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

You guys are quarreling on nothing... there is no problem in the current poll. Actually it's pretty clever, Rici said that it should be like "Do you want ST to be banned? If you have chosen yes, then for how long?"", but that's exactly what we are doing, since everyone who voted for a ban option would have voted for "yes" in the first option. The aren't any specific rules on how to make a poll. As I said this method is pretty clever, since it spares a question, my praise to who came up with it. If you think about it, if you don't put the first question (Do you want ST to be banned?) nor count the votes as we do now, the poll is unbalanced in favor of the no ban option.

Also, there is no rule that only admins are allowed to open polls or start ban discussions. Even if we had such a rule, it wouldn't work with the wikia's system of a being a community based project. Just imagine an admin going power crazy, who if not the regular editors would host a discussion and a poll to remove him/her from the position? Central wiki is full of stuff like that. 15:02, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

You totally misread that. Bastian made the cumulative "rule." Which an admin did not. The voting rules were only for how many months, edits, and if blog votes count or not. That is not how a poll works on the wikia. SeaTerror 17:57, January 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * It's not a condition necessary to vote, it's only a matter of how make the poll. We could have ask before if there is the need of a ban, then asking for what length, but wouldn't that have the same results of this? I don't understand... are you thinking that this is "not fair"? It's the same.

I already said why. If 4 people vote for one month and 6 people vote for 2 weeks but 9 people vote for no ban that means you are combining poll options to make it 10 votes instead of the 4 and 6 votes that are actually there. SeaTerror 18:08, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

I really fail to see the problem, since if we do like we did for the first time we voted or as Rici said (first asking ban/no-ban, then what length), in the case you mentioned, it would be 10 votes for banning against 9 votes for no ban, then 6 votes for two weeks ban against 4 votes for one month ban, result two weeks ban, the same result of your example. If we decide to add the first question, it's fine to me since it's the same.

You are missing the point once again. When somebody votes for something that means their vote only counts towards that option they voted for. Of course the person can change their vote up to until the vote is over. This is not how voting works on this wikia because there were only ever 3 rules voted on. I should have said this before but here: The only rules that were voted on were how many edits, how long the person was here, and if blog edits counted or not. SeaTerror 17:50, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

... Well I already said what I have to say, am I the only one who think there is no problem at all? I still can't follow you there.... It's just a matter of question wording to me, I don't understand why are you talking about major wiki's rules, as I said it's the same as asking separately if ban you or not and then for what length. (forgot to sign)

It isn't the same at all. The way the poll is now is implying if the no ban has 10 votes but 1 month has 9 and 2 weeks has 2 then that means you are trying to combine the votes. If somebody holds a vote to change Luffy's color scheme to black and 5 people vote to keep it as red but black gets 7 votes are you saying that those 5 people actually voted for the color blaak? SeaTerror 17:47, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Your example is off: it should be a vote for changing Luffy's colorscheme with No change, Version 1 and Version 2 as options, so if 10 people votes for No change, but 8 people vote for Version 1 and 4 people for Version 2, then it's obvious that the majority doesn't want to keep the colorscheme. We don't combine votes since those options are sub-options of change the colorscheme, we just skip asking if you want to change the colorscheme first, if you want a new version naturally you want to change it. Then what do you think is the correct method to hold this poll? I bet it's If it's this what you think, then everybody who vote for any ban length will consequentially vote in favor of the ban in the first option, there you go.
 * Should SeaTerror be banned?
 * Yes
 * No
 * If yes, for how long?
 * 1 month
 * 2 weeks
 * 1 weeks

The vote is fine as it is. There's no need to discuss it. It will give you the same results.

Nope. The poll is fine how it is minus the (or less if this doesn't pass) part. When you vote you only vote for one option. Your vote does not automatically go onto the next one. That is the only invalid part of this poll. SeaTerror 02:51, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. I changed it when the poll was made, but 'someone' undid me..

Ok, let's clear this up. If there are 11 people voting for a ban (but of different lengths) and there are 7 people voting for no ban, then that means 4 MORE people want a ban than the people who want no ban. So no matter what, that is a ban. The length of the ban is what needs to be settled. Supposing "ban him" does win, and one length has 7 votes, and another has three votes. the one with seven votes is the time that will pass, correct? 03:21, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

You would say the same thing if no ban was the one that had the most votes. If somehow no ban gets say 12 votes and 1 month gets 10 votes but 2 weeks has 4 then you want to combine both poll options to make it so 2 weeks has 14 votes. That is not how it works. SeaTerror 03:44, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

I believe that the poll option states "One month OR LESS if this option does not pass"or something along those lines. Or maybe it did when I voted. What I was trying to get across is that if there are 10 votes for "one month" and 4 votes for "2 weeks" and only 10 for "no ban" then you will be banned for at least two weeks. I probably could have said that better. 04:07, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

As admin, I support this voting method. Now let's ask DancePowderer. 06:36, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

ST did you read what I wrote? Is the example above what do you think it's the correct way to vote? Then I have already prove to you that there is no difference... you said this is not fair, but it's actually the opposite, since if you don't count the ban options all together then the poll is not balanced, since you should just add 10 more options of length to increase the chance of split the votes of those in favor of the ban. The poll is meant to ban or not to ban you, the lengths are just a secondary poll, it's not like asking what is your favorite character. If you really don't want to accept this, then let's add the straight question "Should SeaTerror be banned?".

It doesn't matter what you support. It only matters what the community supported in the original voting rules vote.

It is not the opposite at all. You cannot merge options just because you want to. A person who votes for one option isn't voting for the other option. Unless of course they later change their vote which anybody is allowed to do. SeaTerror 17:55, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

ST is actually right, if we are honest we can't simply conclude that people automatically jump to the next lowest banning length. Especially comments like "1 month ban, anything else is pointless" make this clear. 18:35, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Heh, Px15 even commented in this manner: (I don't think a short ban would solve anything.) 18:37, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Then let's separate the two things, but the point here was if the majority want to ban ST but no ban option win why he should "get away"? Jinbe it's not a matter of "jumping on the lowest ban" (the one month is the most voted anyway) the present poll is just saying "if you want to ban ST vote for a ban, the ban with most votes will win", in a poll with two separate questions if you vote for ANY ban you HAVE to vote in favor of the ban in the first question (otherwise your vote is contradictory and then one can argue if it is even valid) so again what's the problem? The "jumping on the lowest ban" as you said it's if a shorter ban gets more votes than a longer one, but in this case even in normal poll it would win. Removing the first question was meant to simplify things, but shall I add the first question and ask everybody who voted for a ban to answer that?


 * "It doesn't matter what you support." - you can just reject what I said by principle, I'm just using logic. The "voting rules" are those written in the poll's task, if you read it you are aware of how it works and then give your vote, that's all.


 * I see.
 * And I think this "It doesn't matter what you support." was directed to Yata, who said that he, as an admin, supports the vote. ST is right that him being an admin makes no difference. However, it is sure weird that his first argument began with the poll not being opened by an admin, and now that an admin supports it, its not good enough as well. Seriously ST, why is it so hard to apologize to the people you insulted? I understood your reasons and you probably really felt provoked by Klobis, but calling people fucking idiots on wiki related discussions is simply a no go. 19:27, January 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * Ah I thought it was referring to me. Then about the poll? The no ban option is tied with the one month anyway.
 * How about we just leave it as it is for now, and then we are done, we can compile the votes for ban (every one of them) and the votes for no ban (all of them) and see which one wins. If ban wins, then we will decide the length afterwards. How does that sound? 19:53, January 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think we should simply go for no ban or one month ban, since they tied anyway. It was always common practice to start a new vote if there is a tie, and this way ST can't argue that we are going against the usual process. 19:58, January 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * Alright, that sounds ok to me. Honestly, I don't see what is so terrible about this, but I am open to change. 20:10, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Its too late to change the vote now anyway. That would mean people would have to revote all over again. What I have been saying is people can change their vote when they want so they can change it to 2 weeks even if they would prefer a month just so a ban happens. It isn't the same thing as how the vote is now and I would not care if they changed their vote that way because that is how all votes work on this site. SeaTerror 21:12, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Why is it too late to change it? We can give the new vote like two weeks, and post a message on the community messages asking editors to revote. 22:15, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

There is no need to go that far, we can simply add the question "Should SeaTerror be banned? (yes/no)" and ask everyone who voted for a ban to answer that or change their vote accordingly, the deadline can remain the same. This way we will simply move the votes for no ban in the first no, that's all.

Nope, we wont change it now.. And if its a tie between 'No Ban' and 'Ban for 1 month', the users that voted for the other options will change their mind if they want to ban him or leave him alone.

So what, if the "No Ban" gets more votes despite more people want him banned, then SeaTerror gets away and can start insulting people and edit war all he likes again? I can't stand for such injustice. Sometimes you have to bend the rules to stamp out the bad. 02:45, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Yata, no offense, but that is hypocritical. "Bend the rules?" Don't start anything. If you want him banned so bad, do it fair and square. And no, if "no ban" get one more vote than "ban for a month" but there are more overall votes for "ban him", he will be banned. 02:50, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

We cant change the vote now. When I deleted it and said we should wait and talk about the options first, Bastian undid my work. And im pretty sure if he insults people and starts edit wars again, just warn him on his talkpage and if he doesnt listen, just ban him. No need for a 3rd forum.

Right, my thoughts exactly, a third strike and he gets no more nice forums that he himself refuses to start up. 03:14, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't matter how many strikes. Different situations lead to different opinions and outcomes.

But it seems that you get what you want anyway, when I look at the current votes. 16:21, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

First of all, as the poll is now the "no ban" must win against all the bans put together, it's stated at the beginning so if you have voted you accepted this, then why don't we just add the first question like this We have simply to ask the people who voted for a ban to answer yes on the first question or change their vote accordingly, no need to reset or extend the poll's time.
 * Should SeaTerror be banned?
 * Yes
 * No
 * If yes, for how long?
 * 1 month
 * 2 weeks
 * 1 weeks


 * The problem is that people who would like a short ban are not likely to vote for him to be banned if it is likely he would get a longer ban than they want. As it is now, the poll can not be changed without more votes than the poll currently has, so discussing it is rather useless (even SeaTerror admits that changing the vote isn't really possible now).. Bastian964 16:56, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

So what about now? How will the votes be counted?


 * How about we knock off users in votes that mainly do nothing but commenting blogs and don't have 300 article edits? Special:Editcount can be used to check the quota. -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 16:26, January 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Forum:The_Magic_1000_rule, it has already been decided that EVEN blogs comments and edits are to be counted. You should start of by not knocking off users that respect the rule, but by trying to change the rule.


 * No, that was decided that all kinds of edits count, my question is: since the poll is asking that the "no ban" must be higher than the ban votes, we should always stick to that. Or have we changed mind? I don't want polemics on this...

You already know how I feel about blog edits but you can't do anything about it unless you try to get the vote changed. SeaTerror 17:57, January 21, 2012 (UTC)

Well the vote is over now and it's a tie, so what's next?

No, there were more votes for "No Ban" Than "One Month". So, I think ST will not have a ban. Evanalmighty 11:52, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

The "no ban" votes must be higher then the "ban options", it's clearly stated in the poll... I suggest to make a definitive poll, with simply "Do you want to ban ST? Yes/no", this way there won't be complain on the result. Just a note, I find somewhat funny that while there is a discussion about ban him Sea still writes this kind of things "You are ignorant. You really cannot deny it. You are ignorant for saying "ou" is wrong when it is a main form of romanization." (SeaTerror 17:26, January 21, 2012 (UTC) - Forum:Name Spellings). It can happens in a "lively" discussion, but while we are thinking of ban him? It doesn't show he want to change his behavior...

I have never known the voting rules, but since you said that "no ban" must be more than "Ban options" so it is still a tie, and the worse case is that the vote is closed. How are we going to deal with it? Evanalmighty 12:16, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

Leave these two sections only. And tell the others who vote for less, to vote or for 'no ban' or 'ban for 1 month' ...

How? Do they include those who have been active in this wiki for less than 3 months? Evanalmighty 12:23, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

Eh?.....The others who vote for 1 week or 2.. To vote for these two only sections.

Done. 13:30, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

So, 11-10. Is ST not going to get a ban? Evanalmighty 13:37, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

...Fine... can't believe you people support this edit warring editor though... But one warning to SeaTerror: if you edit war or insult once again, you'll be banned without so much as a forum. 19:41, January 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * No offense yata, but he won't. The community has decided for the 2nd time now that they're fine with it and you need to respect that. This is not the place for your personal issues with him. 19:48, January 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * I also find it incredibly disrespectful that you're invalidating the point of this forum again. Last time you claimed he got lucky, and now you say you will ban him without further discussion. That's not how community decisions work. 19:51, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, alright, just wanting to prevent any future edit wars... they're just too counterproductive... 19:55, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

Allow me to reword myself: from now on, can SeaTerror (and everyone else) please talk it through in a civilized manner via talk pages/forums before they do so many counterproductive edit wars? Thank you. 23:08, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

Vote Again
A Vote for banning SeaTerror has opened.

Note on how this vote works: If the longest ban is less than the no ban or a lesser ban vote then upon tallying it is rolled into the next highest ban. If that isn't higher than the no ban or a lesser ban vote, it is rolled into the next highest and repeat until either the current highest ban vote has the most votes of any single vote section or the no ban vote wins.

Note2: If people wish a different ban length than one of the available options, they are encouraged to start a section for that ban length.

You must have/be: The Vote Will End on January 22, 2012
 * 300 Edits
 * 3 months here

For one week (or less if this doesn't pass)

 * 1) Troll King Imhungry4444 00:40, January 13, 2012 (UTC) (trust me a week off this site will go a long way for the more frequent and loyal users and editors.)

For two weeks (or less if this doesn't pass)

 * 1)  Ahou King MDM  Oi  Need Help?  02:01, January 12, 2012 (UTC) (2 weeks are enough to prepare for a new start

For one month (or less if this doesn't pass)

 * 1) Bastian964 02:03, January 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * 02:05, January 12, 2012 (UTC) (I don't think a short ban would solve anything.)
 * 02:43, January 12, 2012 (UTC) What Pacifista15 said.
 * 1) Klobis 08:24, January 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2) -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 21:26, January 12, 2012 (UTC) again starting an edit war
 * 3)  04:17, January 13, 2012 (UTC) I agree with PX-15 and DancePowderer.

No Ban

 * 01:37, January 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * 02:45, January 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) One-Winged Hawk 16:38, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2) Zoro-san 18:43, January 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * 15:19, January 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1)  Pi ec e • En ri k •     talk   co   15:49, January 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * 13:29, January 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * 15:19, January 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1)  Pi ec e • En ri k •     talk   co   15:49, January 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * 13:29, January 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * 13:29, January 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * 13:29, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

See the top of the vote for voting rules.

More discussion
Sea does do some good edits occusionally, I just want to note that. Regardless, the nuyumber of voters wanting a vote currently rests at 10 against 6, although not all of the 10 are wanting the same length of time, thus is pretty much certain sea a ban of some sorts. In fact, you guys should have first voted on if he needs to be banned or not before you slapped a vote on for length of time. The scernario you've created here in the poll is that you could have 15 people wanting a ban, but because there is 8 people on no ban and only a thte most, say 4, on any other option he could slip by without voting. Least thats want this poll gives the impression of. One-Winged Hawk 16:42, January 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * You miss the note at the beginning: Note on how this vote works: If the longest ban is less than the no ban or a lesser ban vote then upon tallying it is rolled into the next highest ban. If that isn't higher than the no ban or a lesser ban vote, it is rolled into the next highest and repeat until either the current highest ban vote has the most votes of any single vote section or the no ban vote wins. This is to avoid asking if you want the ban or not too, there was a little discussion on this in the last part of the discussion above.


 * I didn't miss it, it was confusing and hard to understand why you did it. ^_- One-Winged Hawk 19:00, January 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * Also as to why I'm confused... We do actually have old banning rules *somewhere* on the wikia, thus rendering the need to vote on "how long", a straight "for and against" was all that was need, the rest follows the rules until Sea renders himself in a complete ban if he kept doing the same thing. I'll try to find these old rules. :-/ One-Winged Hawk 19:05, January 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * Wait I just remembered the other thing why this bugged me when I read it it hit me again just a mo ago. Just because the guys voting "no ban" don't want to ban Sea, doesn't mean if he is to be ban don't want to say how long he should be banned for. The poll completely shuts any further voting out by them, thus they cannot say anything else on the matter. If you had done a flat out "ban or no ban" poll, then the length poll that would have followed would have allowed the "no banners" to keep within the game and say "oh well, his going to be banned, guess all we can do is add our thoughts how long for". One-Winged Hawk 23:35, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

A proper list of edit wars and "user insults" should be created linking exactly to his edits in the history page in chronological order. We will use that to decide if he should be banned (for how long?) or not! What do the Guidelines say (we need your help Hawk) about the way to deal with this? Was SeaTerror warned beforehand about a ban for his behavior? The question here is not in regard to a yes or no answer. Everything I've noted above should be made into a table or list so that it's perfectly clear and neat about what we are talking about. Similarly to the one I made for Drunk Samurai, and although he gives me the same vibes, SeaTerror is nowhere near the level of DS. MasterDeva 17:32, January 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * SeaTerror was warned at least three times by Yata alone, he has already been put up for a ban once, and if there was a week where SeaTerror wasn't editing warring with someone, I will be extremely suprised. I'll look for a few examples of his behavior but an exhaustive list would take a long, long time to make. Bastian964 18:42, January 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * I did not ask for an exhaustive list though. Just a simple and clean interface where people can see in a clear and simple way what we are talking about. Sure people can say anything they want but there should be link references backing up their statements. SeaTerror also raised a point about blog votes counting or not. These things should be discussed prior to that, One-Winged Hawk could also be of assistance since she is the oldest editor since this wikia's creation. MasterDeva 18:52, January 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * I honestly don't think we have that much of a guideline to support this, its not really come up. There is a user guideline for banning vandlas and flamers, but not disacplining editors like this based on the fact they disagree and take matters into their own hands from time to time. If Sea was an obivous troll, then we'd have a call though. I think after this though you guys might want to then consider making it. :-/ One-Winged Hawk 19:00, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

sorryu for the multiple editing, I'm actually quite ill today and I'm remembering things as my illness lets me... Treatment_of_Vandalism is all we've got to act as a guidelines for banning someone. -_-

Yeah, after this poll sorts it out, we need to sort out the banment rules - ASAP. I read this page and its waaaay out of date to the wkias modern day needs. I don't blame anyone for this but its just its never really been that much called up on before. Its like the Image Guidelines not covering anime over manga images perference, something we just didn't think about at the time that would be a problem. So this page literally covers only vandalsim, i.e. as I mentioned, trolls, vandals and flamers. One-Winged Hawk 19:10, January 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * That's exactly why I asked for your help. In a recent read of our Vandalism Guidelines I've found myself bewildered by some things. Or rather I remember them being more simple or used to be simple some time ago. A revision would be much needed to prevent future problems or misunderstandings. MasterDeva 20:01, January 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * The wikia will have to sort it out after Sea has been dealt with I think... Based on what happens here will likely effect it otherwise. ~When you consider I can't edit Image Guidelines anymore, which I created, without consenting everyone else and looking over the history of that page, theres been a few edits that should have been thrown in front of the rest of us to discuss first. When the wikia was small we had to make do, but now there is muliple egos here and you have to have a agreed rules that everyone has voting on. The "make it up as we go along" stage is gone in regarding the guidelines and rules. The only general edits that can be done without consent of the rest of the wikia should be ones correcting spelling and gramma, though you can't reword something to change its meaning entirely in the process. One-Winged Hawk 22:14, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

These are just a few of the recent ones that I bothered to look up. This is by no means as exhaustive list especially the ones older than a few days old (some of which were just looked up because I knew he insulted someone). Also note that most of the insults came from the page history. I didn't bother reading through the talk pages.

Edit Wars
 * -On the 12th Laughter Style (because apparently Chapter 0 wasn't a good enough source)
 * -On the 11th Void Century (page had to be protected and his edits reverted)
 * -From December 20th until January 10th World Timeline
 * -January 5th to 6th John Giant (solved by Yata)
 * -January 4th Template:Redhairedcrewmembers
 * -November 12th to 14th Usopp/Personality_and_Relationships
 * -November 12th to 14th Sanji/Personality_and_Relationships
 * -November 12th to 14th Tony_Tony_Chopper/Personality_and_Relationships
 * -November 6th to 9th User:SeaTerror/Fighting_Techniques
 * -November 6th to 9th User:SeaTerror/Superhuman_Strength (both of these because he was breaking the rules by having his personal pages in categories. Stopped by Yata.)
 * -October 22nd to 26th Template:Strawhat (stopped by Yata)
 * -October 10th to 11th and then November 13th to 15th First_Mate

Insults
 * -January 8 "How's your bridge?" World Timeline (Calling Defchris the admin of the german OP wiki a troll in response to Defchris's reversion note of "rv - Troll" as well as the discussion on the talk page.)
 * -January 8 "Klobis is the troll who ignores ongoing debates." World Timeline
 * -January 8 "You're a retard who doesn't know what a troll is. Quit being a fucking idiot. Jesus Christ"World Timeline
 * -January 4th "No you go to the talk page where it was already discussed you lazy ass" Template:Redhairedcrewmembers
 * -December 31st "Quit drinking so much and read the talk page for once." World Timeline ‎
 * - December 21 "You might learn something in your life for once." World Timeline
 * -November 14th "You deletionist scum are the only lazy ones." Tony Tony Chopper/Personality and Relationships (the lazy bit, but not the scum comment, does have some context because he said something couldn't be deleted until it was moved. I told him it already was in another page. He said prove it. I said he should read the page himself and then asked him "How lazy are you?")
 * -Octover 25th "Are you Stevie Wonder?" Template:Strawhat

Bastian964 19:44, January 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * That would be a good start, I'll fix these later so they are clickable. Albeit some of the above can accurately reflect SeaTerror's usual attitude cases were he was provoked "Klobis calling him troll?" should be explained as such. MasterDeva 20:11, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * If you want to edit my post to post links or add entries, you can.Bastian964 20:20, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

The first 2 that you mentioned were not edit wars. I bet you didn't even actually look at it. John Giant was not an edit war either. Calling somebody a troll is not an insult so your first 2 are wrong. Also Angel, when I mentioned blog edits I was talking about the voting rules and not if the edits count or not. SeaTerror 17:50, January 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * My illness prevents me from thinking too straight right now on anything... Though I don't mean any disrespects throughout the whole process, your best adressing people directly next to their last messages otherwise they don't know what your talkingt about Sea. I don't know, even tha 1 event between you and I has no reason to be held as a gudge from me since someone else did the same a day later (reverting Mermiad Princess). I think the whole thing is just a case of someone just not settling the matter correctly, if they had disagreements with you Sea, they should have asked the rest of the edtiors to choose a side via voting. If everyone sided with you they were stuck in the cold and if they sided against you Sea you would be the one left unable to fight them. One-Winged Hawk 12:37, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Part 3
SeaTerror's action in Talk:Krieg: he brought up an argument referring "Don" being Krieg's family name, a matter that was settled four months ago, and even after evidence obviously pointing "Don" is not a family name, he blatantly ignored that and stated otherwise. This is obvious trolling and vandalism. This is his third time, so another ban is in order, this time a longer one. 09:46, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion Part 3
I don't know how he evaded punishment in the past two offenses, but this one has to take the cake. He is bringing up a long-settled problem, and deliberately going against the already given evidence (the bounty poster does not say "Don"). This is obvious trolling and vandalism, so I am asking the people who voted for his acquittal in the above polls to look clearly at this and just accept he is deliberately going against the wiki. 09:55, February 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * Not to mention the File talk:Scarlet Defeated.png. I mean, he wanted to keep a crappy name when we can simply rename it and make it easier to locate, interpret and gives the wiki a better outlook. WTF is with that? 10:03, February 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * And according to Sewil, ST tried to extend a poll without permission just because the results did not suit him .  10:04, February 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yata I just want to point out to you that the whole wiki is aware that ST trolls, this isn't news to anyone. 10:18, February 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well yeah, but look at the polls above, people didn't wanna ban him for his past offenses for whatever reason. What the hell is with that? 10:21, February 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * He was banned for 3 months by staff so I guess people felt that he has been punished. He does have a fair few friends on chat including myself so sometimes I guess people just don't want him to be banned. Other than that I have no idea. -- 10:27, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Bringing up long-settled problem is not really trolling or vandalism, you can do that if you have valid argumentations. Although the last cases mentioned by Yata are not ban-worthy in my opinion, the main problem is that his discussions are often counter-productive and with that I mean that he basically reject others' opinions without caring for explaining his reasons or just answering with a plain "no". This is counter productive and honestly a bit annoying too, because you cannot have a discussion like that with the only consequence that the wiki "stops for him". This behaviour was the main reason why this forum was already revamp two times, so although the last actions aren't so severe, as I said before, it looks like he still has not learned how to have a proper discussion. That's the real problem.

Correct, since he is insulting with poor discussion skills, that is the main problem. Thanks for pointing it out. 11:20, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

I sometimes have the feeling that ST argues things just for the sake of arguing and being complicated. It sometimes is good to have a devils advocate, but recently he overdoes it. 13:28, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Panda. ST seems to me to be like that kind of person, not that I mind it anyway though. He can argue if he has a decent reason for arguing, that's my insight when it comes to this kind of case. I think you've maybe been going too easy on him before, and now you see what that results to. Anyway I don't see how he has changed on the subject, if not just growing worse... WonderfulUnicorn (talk) 15:11, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

When's the last time he had a decent reason? His argument on the Krieg talk page was basically opposite the very notion that got it moved to Krieg the first place. It was decided that it was a title months ago with generous evidence given in support of it. Then here he goes and just says it's wrong and should be moved back, for no actual reason. Devil's advocate or not, it was obvious he just revived that topic to piss people off. And I doubt he'll stop there. And leave chat opinions out of this, that is a separate space from the matter entirely. 19:29, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Granted, a lot of this stuff is really stupid, I haven't really seen anything that makes me think "ban ST" yet. None of it seems malicious (or at least in a way that can be proven) or anything, and it's mostly just stuff said on talk pages, not during edit wars. I'm not saying that he should or shouldn't be banned or that his actions are sound, just that I haven't seen any that is "ban worthy" to me. 21:12, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Jesus this guy comes from a 4 month ban and after he has this minor argument and someone gets butthurt over it and opens a 3rd part for this,srsly this is getting old quite fast :/ ... User:X-RAPTOR 22:38, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

I don't know why the hell does everyone stand up for that guy, he makes these annoying and obviously rebellious arguments and nobody wants to stop him. 00:00, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

I think in the case of the Krieg talk page, another user renamed the page back to Krieg, so SeaTerror wasn't the one who started that one. That being said, he did act pretty immature on the talk page about it. 00:16, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

So if he didn't start it, why did he argue that Don Krieg was right when it was clearly wrong for any other reason besides wanting to be bothersome? It's this under the radar shit that pisses me off the most. Like Pandawarrior said, he's just doing it to be difficult and waste our time as we try (futilely, and for reasons beyond me) to tell him otherwise. Also, if we know he trolls to such an extent, why do we deal with it rather than getting rid of it? If you have a splinter, you don't decide to live with it, you pull it out since it's not doing anything useful and is just annoying. 03:02, February 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * To help that analogy, the longer you keep a splinter in, the more difficult and painful it is to take out. (I learn from experience)  04:08, February 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * Then why did people decide to keep that splinter in, rather than pull it out right now? He's being a really big pain, with all these counterproductive edits and wars. 04:13, February 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * Seriously, he's digging himself deeper and people in the above polls did nothing but support it. I wanna ask: WHY? 04:15, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Ban polls are usually voted on due to personal preference. Most of those people didn't want him banned (they were either his friend, enjoyed talking to him, etc). Community bans always work like that if the user is known. 04:18, February 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * Gawd, he got so much underworld support. We really have to find a way out of this loophole and have the proper punishment placed on ST. 05:06, February 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * Executive privelige? 05:17, February 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * If it's not biased on his favor, then why not? 05:20, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

I'm certainly not opposed to his ban out of bias or anything, just simply that I haven't seen him do anything since his last ban that I think is ban-worthy. But what I'm really curious about is why he hasn't posted in here to argue with us... 05:25, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Apparently arguing on this wikia is now trolling and vandalism. By this logic we should be banning every single person who has ever commented on a forum/talk page/blog. I even stopped commenting on the Krieg talk page yet people kept it going. Besides the fact I wasn't the one who brought it up in the first place. The image file name was fine how it would have been named and you never even read the talk page since you broke the rules due to the fact that multiple people wanted it named the other name. I also didn't try to extend the poll without permission. DP was the one who said it first and the fact that votes are supposed to be 2 weeks is why that was going to be extended in the first place. Underworld support? You're trying to make me out to be John Gotti or something. The other two ban forums were justified. This one isn't. You only made this new section because I called you out on stuff you did recently. Such as deleting the emoticon image for no reason and letting your extreme hate for fansubs/scanlations cloud your judgement. Also there has to be a vote first regardless unless there is obvious vandalism. That is the site rules. Also, Just my computer is screwed up right now. I'm in safe mode. I'm going to attempt to see if my sister's Ipad can work tomorrow. SeaTerror (talk) 05:33, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

(Damn edit conflict) Ban worthy: he is going against us by bringing up a long settled argument deliberately going against evidence, one edit war after another, insulting remarks hidden under subtlety, and he even rudely barked at me for deleting a useless image and renaming another obvious one. Why he isn't participating, I don't know. 05:34, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

He's been telling me all day in chat he'll do it "later", and he replied above. His computer is messed up. 05:36, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

@ST, The evidence was clearly against Don, four months ago. You brought that up after the storm died down, and went against obvious evidence. 05:37, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/Sonic2479 I didn't bring it up. SeaTerror (talk) 05:41, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Irony. It doesn't matter if people thought the image name was ok, it went against the image guidelines by having an improper name. You can't name an image something cute, it has to be systematic first. The way you commented on the Krieg talk page it seemed like you were just trying to cause trouble. If you had an actual point or clarification (of which I saw neither), then you should have said it. It makes me wonder why you even bothered. 05:44, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

I still think that this a bit too much since he did come out from this 4 month ban,also there are many arguments in this wikia but it just seems like some of you guys now have a personal grudge against SeaTerror,i wont defend him from his past actions since most of them were clearly wrong but i cant help but feel like this is wrong since he only had a minor argument. User:X-RAPTOR 20:03, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Where in the image guidelines does it even say that? This forum never should have been opened anyway. This was only made because some people are trying to invent a new definition to the worlds trolling and vandalism to try to ban me since they dislike me. That's all it comes down to. SeaTerror (talk) 22:37, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Look, I'm not really "knowledgable" in all this "One Piece Wiki ban ST"-stuff, but I do wanna give my two cents. The way I see it, ST's actions that you guys claim is banworthy for a third time, are not banworthy per se. Both situations, Don Krieg and the image thing, aren't really vandalizing OR trolling (okay maybe a little trolling, but w/e), they are however very counterproductive. I'd stop here if that was all there is to it. A user not violating any clear policies, not clearly spamming or vandalizing, but simply contributing to the Wiki in a bad, quarrelsome way is tricky to handle. If it's a regular user, a warning is enough. But this is ST. And looking at his past and present Wiki actions, participating in fora, commenting on talk pages, blah blah blah, the way I see it, many of them were counterproductive, being difficult when it's not needed and not wanted, often angering other users in the process (though I do wanna say, "calm yo tits"). So sometimes, in these occasions, biased decisions from the community or even just the chain of command (admins and such), is perhaps the best decision. If the "moderators" of the Wiki think and agree that they don't want ST on the Wiki, that it's only for the best that he must be stopped getting involved in stuff like this, then yes, I think it's justified. Sometimes solving special situations like this one must be solved with an unorthodox solution, with the admins saying "No, we don't want you here, you're doing more harm to the Wiki than good." If that's really how the uniform attitude towards ST is, then I think that's just the way it is and he should indeed be banned. 00:24, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Pretty sure only Yata and DP feel that way. We have ban rules for a reason though. A user cannot be banned straight away unless it is obvious vandalism. Like Fronky and a few other users did. SeaTerror (talk) 01:16, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Well that's what I said, you didn't commit obvious banworthy actions, but I do think something has to be done, wether it be a warning or some unconventional countermeasures, like a ban that's not issued for vandalism, but simply for the good of the Wiki. So yeah, "A user cannot be banned straight away unless it is obvious vandalism.", I disagree, think more out of the box. 01:42, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

No that's a fact. That's the wikia rules. There has to be a ban forum open for regular users. Then there's a vote about if there should be a ban or not. If the vote says yes then the next one is about the length of time. Both polls last a week. Ban forums are the only ones with double polls like that. I didn't do anything wrong except for argue a few times. I already said why this was made anyway. The other two times this was opened was justified. This time it wasn't. SeaTerror (talk) 01:46, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, ST, I am aware of how the Wiki handles their bans around here. And frankly, it's what I think is causing this Wiki trouble functioning right. You guys might be way too fixed on all these rules and structures. Of course, rules exist to be followed but as I said before, think out of the box. With regular vandals, bans like that can work but you, ST, aren't just a regular vandal. I've said it before and I've said it again, in my eyes this calls for a unconventional, unorthodox way of dealing with a ban, the way I explained above. Also, don't just neglect your past offenses when you say that your actions that are on the line this time aren't justified for a ban. Just because you were banned for your actions before doesn't mean they just go away. They can pile up and now that you've committed these "minor" counterproductive offenses, a ban might just come up once more, not just taking Don Krieg and the image name into account, but like it should, every offense you've made. 02:27, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Very well put. 03:19, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

I know I'm not a regular vandal since I never vandalized anything. There's some things maybe a long time ago that can be called vandalism but there is absolutely nothing that can be called vandalism this time. You ignored every single point that was made because you haven't even been here that long. This time the ban forum was not justified and it was only created because somebody cannot let past grudges go and the fact that I recently called him out on some stuff he did. He didn't like being called out so he made a new ban forum and tried to claim that I trolled and vandalized when I did neither. Now you will just once again comment and say you know what's happening but you shouldn't since you don't. Rules are rules and they need to be followed exactly. SeaTerror (talk) 03:30, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

For the record, here is the part of the Image Guidelines about proper naming. I don't intend to start an argument about it, only clarify that the rule exists. 03:43, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Well ST, I'm just gonna say that I agree that your actions this time were not vandalism. I said that in my first comment, I don't think I claimed otherwise. But a ban can be justified with something else than just vandalism. Your specific case isn't listed in the so if you're gonna be narrow-minded, then no, you shouldn't be banned since you don't deserve a ban, looking only at the policy. But *sigh* again, special case, special countermeasures, blah blah. And look, I don't know what goes on with you and "this user", but if it's come to this, then I don't think this whole matter is just a quarrel between you two. 04:05, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

There are no special cases. I literally have done nothing to deserve a forum to be opened. Many users have also said that. I already said the other two times were justified and that even my Wikia ban was justified. This one cannot be justified at all. This time it is just a personal grudge that Yata has. Just read his comments throughout this forum. SeaTerror (talk) 04:18, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Grudge or not, you can't deny that it was you constantly being difficult, like the reasons listed above, that got you here. This is what happens when policy is treated with such a cut and dry mindset. Just because there are no special cases doesn't mean there can't be or there shouldn't be. What you did was not vandalism but was still an impediment upon general progress overall. I think Bereisgreat made some good points that should be considered here, and I encourage everyone to do so. That being said, I agree with his ideas about things other than vandalism warranting a ban. 18:56, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

What got me here was a grudge. I argued for something then dropped it. I find it funny because you all kept it going. Bere's "points" are really quite bad. They say admins should be able to ignore all rules and outright ban a user they don't like. (Which is why this forum was made in the first place) The other times this forum was opened was justified due to edit wars and other stuff. I would love to see anybody TRY to justify it this time. If we want to start considering simple debate/arguments vandalism/trolling then we need to ban the entire wiki. There is no "special case" or anything like that. I have literally done nothing but debate and argue a few things and this forum was opened. I have done nothing this time to deserve a ban. This is literally just a personal grudge due to the fact I called Yata out. SeaTerror (talk) 19:31, February 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * I never even said that they should be able to ban a user "they don't like". I never said or implied such a thing. I always said that users who they deem bad and malicious for the Wiki, that they should at least be able to do something about it. Just position yourself in their place for a sec, they're trying to build a good-working Wiki and you're making it especially difficult and annoying for them. So the way I see it, it's not that they want to ban you for who you are, but for what you did, not just now but your overall history on the Wiki. And no, that's not the same thing. Oh and I also didn't say to just blatantly ignore the rules. I'm just saying that special cases DO exist and that when they occur, then a ban should be an option, even if those actions aren't specifically listed in the Ban Policy. For the third time, don't think so narrow-minded. 21:47, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

"So sometimes, in these occasions, biased decisions from the community or even just the chain of command (admins and such), is perhaps the best decision. If the "moderators" of the Wiki think and agree that they don't want ST on the Wiki, that it's only for the best that he must be stopped getting involved in stuff like this, then yes, I think it's justified." You implied it right there. You are basically saying the admins can ignore any rule and just ban anybody they want. The ban is always an option anyway since this forum is created. But first the "Does this user deserve to be banned?" poll has to be created. A poll can't go straight to a ban poll and even if it did there would still have to be the no ban option on it. I didn't do anything at all this time to justify this forum to be opened. Arguing isn't vandalism nor is it trolling (as much as people want to claim it is). Once again, we have these rules for a reason. They cannot just be blatantly disregarded. Just go to OPN's forum. That is how a proper ban forum is run. SeaTerror (talk) 22:03, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

I didn't imply that. What I meant and said was that that they should have the right to ban anyone who they think is bad for the Wiki. I didn't say or imply that they should ban anyone who they think is not a nice person. I don't know why you think that Wikia stuff always directly relates to personal issues, but I see it like this: my view on this, my standpoint is the right to issue a ban to anyone who is bad for the Wiki, that's only, purely and exclusively "business"-related. My statement that you quoted before is just that, business. Nothing personal whatsoever. You may see it like "Oh they can't work with me on the Wiki, so they don't like me and they are going to ban me because they don't like me". It's not like that.

Also, again, I agree that your recent actions weren't vandalism or trolling. I said that before, you don't have to prove that to me again. But like I said then, even if they aren't, there's still counterproductive and bad for the Wiki. Also, about the rules that you so dearly adore, it doesn't say on the that those actions are the only cases in which a ban is considered. They simply show a list of actions that are warranting a ban. While you can think that if it's not on there, a ban shouldn't be an issue, but the opposite is true as well. Just because it's not on that list, doesn't mean a ban isn't an option. I don't see the phrase "These actions and only these actions can bring about a ban." anywhere on the policy. Just pointing that out.

Oh right, one last thing. Why? I think that by now, you know well enough what not to do on Wikia, that it causes annoying situations (not only annoying, I know you've been good as well) and pisses some people off. So why don't you just... Be good? And this is not about some sort of ban. Wether or not it's ban-worthy or not, you gotta admit Talk:Krieg and the filename isn't particularly "healthy discussion". Just curious. (Lol, sorry for the long message btw) 00:30, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

This discussion is obviously just back and forth bickering. Someone should go ahead and get a poll up for the "should he be banned" aspect. 06:20, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

Yes. It would be a better idea just to get the vote going now. SeaTerror (talk) 07:23, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry if this is in poor taste to post since people have asked to just start the poll, but I really wanted to post this yesterday but was unable to before I had to leave for massive blizzard preparation. But here are my thoughts about this: Basically, I think the idea that Bere has proposed (banning someone for being a continued disruption) is sound, but only in extreme cases. That being said, I would have to think long and hard about actually banning ST (I presume it would be a perma-ban, judging by the context, inform me if that's incorrect) and I have not made up mind about how I would vote in a poll. It of course, would have to be done with a vote, and not just the decision of admins (and I don't think anyone is advocating for the latter). Yes, there's nothing in the rules that says we can do that, but I think if we vote to ban ST, then we have voted to make an exception. I do think though that a situation like this would be so uncommon that it should not even be written into the guidelines. If a ban happens here, it is because we decide to ban SeaTerror, and ST alone, not to open the door for more bans like this in the future. This is a very extreme case.

Now, I have a few words for ST: I think the best option for you would be to try and One thing you bring up a lot is something like "this wiki doesn't know what trolling is." Maybe you're right there, and maybe you aren't, but I don't think that's really important in the long run. What I think would be best for you would be to stop "trolling" by the wiki's definition, since it is clearly upsetting people. I would define "trolling" as any statement that's said to bait people into responding to something. Now, you could troll by posting something incorrect and watching stupid people believe you, or as I think is mostly the case here, to bait people into arguing further with you. I don't know if you say some things like "If you support this, then you support (insert extremely ridiculous thing that nobody would ever support here) as well!" because you're trying to be funny, or if you're trying to argue, but regardless, statements like that piss people off. I (and many other users here) don't care if that's not really "trolling", but it makes us upset regardless of what it really is. And I think it would also really help if you would stop arguing after it's become clear you're not going to win an argument, and not bring it up again in the future. It also helps quite a bit to admit when you're wrong, instead of never posting anything, so that you don't create the idea that you only ever argue. I don't really want to see a user banned without giving them an opportunity to correct their behavior and apologize for what they've done. If you honestly don't want to apologize and change your behavior, then I guess you should be banned, because you are going to keep on being a disruption. 15:09, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

Really wise words of advice you got there, it's worth listening to. WonderfulUnicorn (talk) 15:15, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

Well said, and for the record, this forum is not about a permanent ban as far as I could tell, I can't speak for the other people on here. 18:07, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

Perma Ban would be too far, but 1 month - 1 year seems to be the consensus for the poll options later. 19:33, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

I thought we had shorter option polls too unless that's for a first offense only. Either way we would have to do the "should this user be banned?" poll first. SeaTerror (talk) 19:44, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

I'm gonna go ahead and start the should he be banned poll. 06:39, February 9, 2013 (UTC)

I don't really want to vote until I get a response to my post above from ST (specifically the second part). If I don't get one before the poll ends, I'll just consider it a negative response and vote for the ban. I'd really like this to work out the best for the wiki, and if ST can improve his behavior, then I think that's the best outcome. 01:26, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how it could make people upset. The Don Krieg argument shouldn't have made anybody upset. I don't know what you mean about bringing it back up in the future exactly but if you mean something like a forum argument then that's a flat out no. We are allowed to bring anything back up eventually. We just haven't established what the time limit should be. I think many people were set on 3 months but that will have to go in the MOS anyway. If you mean a talk page then I would need to see some examples because I don't really remember doing that. I would need to see some examples for all of it actually. There's plenty of things I would love to bring back but choose not to or don't really want to. I'm not even sure who I need to apologize to exactly (except a few obvious people) so right now I'll apologize to the entire wikia. I'm sorry, One Piece Wikia. SeaTerror (talk) 07:05, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not that you brought it up again, it's howyou brought it up. Did you even read the Krieg talk before you posted? We had concluded (months ago) that Don wasn't his name based on evidence. There was direct evidence (Klobis' post explaining that "Don" is not part of his name) and all you did was come in and refute the conclusion of the talk without saying anything about the evidence. That's upsetting to a lot of people, because you haven't brought anything to the argument other than more arguing. I mean, honestly, what did you expect to accomplish by posting that? 22:59, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Just a note which is probably a bit off topic, I read many people saying that SeaTerror was already banned. He wasn't, or rather he was globally banned by the VSTF, but he was never banned on One Piece Wiki. Just to clear things up.

Basically the same Levi, since it was due to actions here. 01:27, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

ugh. 04:07, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

Polite ST.

I apologized in chat already but I'll do it again here. Sorry for raging there. Can lose it sometimes like that and be a moron. Also Levi it was staff, not VSTF. SeaTerror (talk) 04:22, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

The Third Poll
This poll is closed. It closed after one week on February 16, 2013 at 07:00:00 UTC. SeaTerror will not be banned. You must have 300 edits and 3 months of activity on the wiki to qualify for the vote.

Should SeaTerror be banned for his actions?

1. Yes, SeaTerror should be banned. (If this option passes, Phase 2 commences immediately afterwards, so discuss the exact lengths above before then.)
 * 19:13, February 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * 20:51, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * 10:41, February 12, 2013 (UTC) He's creating a toxic atmosphere and had multiple chances to fix his attitude.
 * 15:09, February 13, 2013 (UTC) I never got a satisfactory answer to my questions, so I don't feel like ST learned anything from this.
 * 1) Bastian964 22:32, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Klobis (talk) 03:04, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Bastian964 22:32, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Klobis (talk) 03:04, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

2. No, SeaTerror should not be banned. (If this option passes, there will be no phase 2.)
 * 1)  15:58, February 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) User:X-RAPTOR 20:09, February 9, 2013 (UTC) It was a minor offense and he has bettered himself a lot since he was previously banned,this 3rd part shouldnt even have been opened.
 * 04:54, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Stupid reason.
 * 2) Besty17 (talk) 21:02, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) HAHAHAHAHAHAHA you've got to be joking. CSCR (talk) 23:23, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * 09:49, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * 22:10, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * 00:53, February 12, 2013 (UTC)Zori
 * 1) MasterDeva (talk) 04:26, February 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 22:28, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * 01:41, February 14, 2013 (UTC) Petty offenses and a standing grudge are not sufficient reasons for a ban.
 * 1)   ☆ MDM ☆   (◕‿◕)   05:56, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Sure ST can be a bit of a annoyance at times, ST always has been, but for all its worth this is getting silly. Every time someone has a grudge they vote ST up for banning. Look, no matter how bad ST gets there is still a way around things, you will find people you don't always agree with on a wiki as its a community. Some we can ban because they get nout of hand, but nothing ST does ever is worthy of banment. Instead of trying to constantly ban him, bring in ways to stop arguments between him and yourselves. Things like Image Guidelines and other stuff is there for a reason. If ST goes against them, ST either has to take it up with the forum OR you show him the stuff that supports your edit and get other editors to take note of it. One-Winged Hawk (talk) 11:20, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Sure ST can be a bit of a annoyance at times, ST always has been, but for all its worth this is getting silly. Every time someone has a grudge they vote ST up for banning. Look, no matter how bad ST gets there is still a way around things, you will find people you don't always agree with on a wiki as its a community. Some we can ban because they get nout of hand, but nothing ST does ever is worthy of banment. Instead of trying to constantly ban him, bring in ways to stop arguments between him and yourselves. Things like Image Guidelines and other stuff is there for a reason. If ST goes against them, ST either has to take it up with the forum OR you show him the stuff that supports your edit and get other editors to take note of it. One-Winged Hawk (talk) 11:20, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

Third Poll Post Discussion
No ban has won. 17:53, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

Part 1
While its good that Gal has been blocked, I get the feeling that he's been made the scapegoat. ST, while not quite as bad, certainly isn't innocent of the exact same things Gal did, and as several people on Gal's forum mentioned this I thought it would be wise to reopen this forum and discuss banning ST as well. 13:03, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think ST has done anything ban worthy, he sure is rude to many people and when undoing stuff he never gives a reason causing people to get pissed off but as far as I am concerned, ST actually does edits that are good for the wiki and his overall behavior, even though it's not even close to perfect, doesn't look ban worthy to my eyes. Also please stop comparing his with gal, they are different users with different attitudes. 13:07, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Clearly not everyone agrees with you, or his potential ban wouldn't have been mentioned in the Gal forum. Wait and see what other people say. 13:16, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Well I would prefer if neither of them got banned, but since Gal would got banned, ST should as well. & Gal was reasonable and you could discuss with him at least. 14:10, February 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * I'd prefer if neither Geno,Gal nor ST get banned,but too bad all of them are gonna be :/ ;_;--

He didn't get blocked. He disabled his account. Which is something I'm not going to do. SeaTerror (talk) 15:10, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

^yes we should just let Gal be,the same way we blocked Geno 'coz he asked for it ;/--

"Sigh" I wish for him to be banned but so far he has not done anything banworthy.

Joekido (talk) 15:33, February 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * Before you wish for another to be banned, think of yourself Joekido. :-/ One-Winged Hawk (talk) 19:24, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

so yeah, st edit wars, doesnt leave reasons when he reverts, and isnt as warm as other users but is that ban worthy?-- 21:44, February 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry to say this, but you're acting like a hypocrite. You wanted to ban Gal for starting or getting involved in edit wars, doesn't leave reasons when he reverts an edit or image, and isn't very warm to other users. And now, you don't want to ban ST for exactly the same reasons you wanted to ban Gal. Anyone else hear screaming hypocrisy from this, huh? 22:19, February 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * just cause im not calling for his ban doesnt necessarily mean im defending him, im just stating what ST's done and asking if its really ban worthy. plus gal did more and was worse than ST at least imo-- 22:26, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Alright this is just getting frustrating now. Gal and ST are two separate people and this is the ST forum not the Gal forum, so stop discussing Gal in this forum. Even though they did similar things this is a separate issue and should be treated as such. 23:04, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Actually, when I looked at the reasons Jade listed for Gal to be banned, almost all of them reminded me of ST. 23:35, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

And........ I did say they did similar things didn't I? Again it's separate issue therefore should be discussed separately. Is that really so hard for you to understand. 00:41, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

I suppose you're right. People are still going to talk about it though, since Gal's ban forum is pretty much the only reason this has been opened. 03:18, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

ST does similar things to Galaxy and so should be treated the same as how people were going to treat Galaxy. 13:04, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

Whatever, I don't support ST's ban either way. And I'm sure he isn't going to end up banned. 13:11, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

If people are just going to keep talking about Gal then this forum is a waste of time. 13:24, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

I already said that since he disabled his account himself. There isn't anything to defend or attack since the forum was only supposed to be opened if he got banned. SeaTerror (talk) 16:23, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, SHB, but I don't think we can avoid talking about Gal in this discussion, considering practically this was only opened was because of Gal.

Now, if Gal had been banned by the wiki community, the verdict of this discussion would probably end up with ST being banned, considering they both behaved in similar ways albeit to different degrees. The same thing would happen if Gal hadn't been banned (probably even no new discussion for ST). However, from what I know, Gal requested the staff to ban him, therefore this community didn't ban him and as such, the verdict of this discussion is uncertain considering this was only opened because of Gal and his similar attitude and behavior to ST, but Gal's ban discussion was cut off with no verdict thanks to his being globally blocked.

If you ask me, I would say kill the discussion, since there's no verdict to Gal's newest ban discussion, and this was only opened because of him. 17:08, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

Part 2
I've managed to hold my tongue and not post on this forum for a few days, but I feel I need to post now, and it's gonna be a long one.

SeaTerror should be banned because his attitude and editing practices are one of the greatest detriments to this wiki.

Yes, this forum was opened because of Gal's forum, but that forum's premature end should have no bearing on this one. The fact is that Gal's forum was opened because many users felt that Gal's attitude and editing practices were harmful to the wiki (ironically, many of those same users are now defending ST). This forum is not about backlash or revenge for those who wanted to ban Galaxy, but a separate matter about whether or not SeaTerror's actions merit a ban. It has nothing to do with Galaxy. And for the record, Galaxy's forum was not the first time a user has been put up for ban because of their attitude. If you want some precedence for that, scroll up to Discussion 3 on this very forum. That went to poll, and even though it did not result in a ban, I think the large number of votes for his ban proves that this wiki is not opposed to the idea of banning someone for their attitude and at least should let this discussion move closer to a poll. Also, while a little bit of a different situation, you could also say that Klobis was banned in large part because of his attitude. I think it's clear that discussing banning ST for his attitude and actions is something that we should continue doing, and this forum should not be closed any time soon.

Now, on to my reasoning behind why he should be banned. SeaTerror is by far the most stubborn and grudge-obsessed user on this wiki. There are many decisions this wiki has come to that SeaTerror has disagreed with and many of those are issues he refuses to drop. I think anyone who's been on this wiki doesn't need to be reminded of both forums about "Arabasta" and how ST refused to drop the issue. I've been on this wiki about 2 years now, and even one my very first edits was responded to by a rude ST. In all that time, I've never once seen him admit that he's wrong, or admit defeat on any issue. I've seen him apologize a few times, but only after he has snapped and blatantly insulted someone. Never once have I seen him apologize for his editing practices or attitude. He makes big fusses about issues and refuses to give up, then when the majority is clear or facts have been presented to prove him wrong, he refuses to post on the discussion, leaving it trapped in a state where it can't be closed for a long time. And when I say "refuses to post on the discussion", I quite literally mean "refuse". There have been a number of times when I've asked him to post on those very discussions, and he has refused to do so. That is my biggest problem with ST: Stubbornness to the point where any attempts at progress and moving forward are all halted by his actions. But here are some other examples of ST being ST:


 * Here's an oldie, but a prime example of ST's editing practices. In that link, you'll see that User:NinjaSheik, a user ST is known to hold a grudge against removed a piece of trivia while providing evidence that it was incorrect, and ST not only undid her edit (I can only assume his grudge against NS caused him to have this knee-jerk reaction against her edit) but ignored her proof. This was also the first time that I asked ST to admit that he was wrong. I no longer have a screenshot of this, but in PM when I asked him to post on the talk page admitting he was wrong, he "joked" that he couldn't because he was blind. I was not amused then, nor am I now.


 * Here's a case from a deleted page where he edit warred with me and not one, but TWO admins. It's from a file redirect from a renamed image where ST wanted it deleted before the links were replaced, which would result in the creation of a bunch of broken file links, aka the biggest headaches we could have at the time of image renaming. His grudge against redirects and his own laziness towards fixing the links himself created a big problem there. I think it's also worth noting that pre-ban Galaxy did not even edit war over this issue, only ST was stubborn enough to do so against 2 admins.


 * Anything regarding his behavior surrounding the page on Fansubs. You'll find many ST-caused edit wars on the history for that page.


 * This speaks for itself.


 * Here's one from yesterday!. Here, he's going against the decision in Forum:Redirects and Other Link Issues, a forum stared due to edit wars caused by SeaTerror. And it's a throwback to his edit wars with Meganoide from before we had a rule on the issue. I actually disagree with decision from that forum, but I do not bring it up because I know the wiki decided and the matter is closed. I don't hold a grudge against it, I just move on, ST, not so much.


 * I'm edit warring with him as a write this post right now about . (Sorry about all the false message notifications, SHB)

These are just some of the examples that stick out to me in recent memory. There's plenty more where they came from, and I hope other users will post them now. They show a pattern of behavior that makes it very hard to believe that ST is capable of any change. If he can't admit he's wrong or move out of the way for progress, why should we allow him to edit here? He's far more trouble than he's worth.

I know if this goes to poll, he probably won't be banned, just like the last time. Too many people from chat like him too much to acknowledge that he's a real problem for real editors. But I want as much of his bad behavior out in the open as possible so that maybe when this forum is opened the 6th or 7th time they will acknowledge that his behavior as an editor is inexcusable. I know that will happen, because I genuinely believe that he's incapable of changing. I genuinely believe he can never stop holding the wiki back. I genuinely believe that he's incapable of conducting himself in a manner that's nice. Maybe by the time this is opened the 8th time we can finally give him the ban he truly deserves. 22:09, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

1) Actually she didn't provide any evidence until posting on the talk page. If it had been a "grudge" or "spite" then I would have kept undoing her.

2) The reasons for that were always obvious. It was easier to elminate those by removing the redirects first especially if they were put on the wanted pages so they could all be taken care of all at once.

3) Most of what I did on the fansub page is removing vandalism.

4) Chat issue so doesn't count towards the wiki (as said by Sff9 before) and also something I also apologized for and never protested the ban. I deserved the ban. Never denied that once. Same thing I said when I got banned by staff.

5) I misread what he was doing and normally when he makes edits like that he is removing valid links from different sections of the same page. Which is how we do it even if the same link. That forum is supposed to be bumped also due to the other redirect issue but it can't since it is protected.

6) Said why it was wrong already.

Most of these are incredibly retroactive (especially the NinjaSheik stuff) so its just looking like an excuse to try to get me banned. The Arabasta thing doesn't count since DP actually protected the first forum when discussion was still ongoing which is why there were two forums about it instead of just one. I have also admitted I was wrong before. SeaTerror (talk) 22:57, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

I don't know about the first Ara/Alabasta forum but the second one just seemed pointless since you were the only one arguing about changing it. You have to consider that you might be doing something wrong if your ban forum has been opened 4 times in 3 years. 23:16, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

1) Her first edit summary opened with "Yes, he has in Chapter 597". Did it occur to you to check Chapter 597 before you reverted? Apparently not. I can only assume that you instantly assumed she had misread the chapter because she's NinjaShiek and NinjaShiek is always wrong.

2) Images say which pages they are used on, even through redirects. Also Special:Whatlinkshere exists. Those are two viable options for dealing with that issue without creating any broken links. Any broken links for any amount of time is a bad thing and should be avoided.

3) "Most".

4) You've already been disciplined for that issue before, but it's still evidence of your bad behavior during arguments.

5) Why did you misread what he was doing? Because you're too busy edit warring him over another topic to actually look at the content of his edits anymore. That's how you seem to be with most people.

6) We'll see what happens when an admin investigates the issue. But the precedent has always been to delete images used only on user talk pages for as long as I can remember. Seems to me you're just trying to protect a needless image from deletion by keeping it in a place it doesn't need to be. You could just as easily link SHB's talk page to the file talk page, which will remain after the image is deleted.

7) It's not "incredibly retroactive", I'm showing that all of these things are part of a pattern of behavior that has not changed over time, right up until the last few days.

8) And as VGP said, you were the only one keeping that Arabasta discussion ongoing. Everyone else agreed, but you wanted to waste their time by continuing to argue about it. Even closing it in one forum still convinced you it was still "ongoing".

9)"I have also admitted I was wrong before." When?

23:30, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

1) Still incredibly old and retroactive so doesn't count. You can find more stuff with her involved that wasn't just me anyway.

2) It isn't a bad thing when it can be solved really fast the other way. Also the only time the redirects are listed show up when the page isn't being redirected so for instance with a deletion template on it.

3) You didn't read it anyway since the edit war was that mini one where I said why it was needed on the talk page. Which I also never added back after the talk page was done.

4) Still doesn't count so just an excuse to show a screenshot of something that is a chat issue ONLY.

5) So now you reveal your true colors and are making stuff up.

6) Then whoever did it first was flat out wrong. The category was originally created due to images used on user talk pages.

7) Actually it is and you know it is. I was much worst before the staff ban and old evidence is still old.

8) Retroactive and something I never brought up again after the forum concluded. Read the 2nd one again and you'll see I wasn't the only one that said it too. Videogame also wasn't around for that forum anyway. He didn't start editing until Moria's talk page.

9) Mostly in chat. SeaTerror (talk) 23:52, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, Gal's the reason we opened this forum again. We got that cleared out, now let's call it water under the bridge. As for ST, there's also the issue, it's an image that we don't need, but he insist on keeping it for some reason. 00:02, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

I didn't participate in the first forum but they both happened after Moriah's talk page (I just checked the dates). I actually did get involved in the second one just before DP closed it. Even if I didn't participate in the first one, I can still read it and see that you were the only one who cared by the end. 01:46, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

Part 3
Okay, I think I'll be the first to say this. Just because it happens on chat does not mean it should be excused or disregarded. The chat is our closest way of communicating, just like the forums. A person who's disrespectful in chat is also usually disrespectful in forums and talk pages. SeaTerror is no exception. What happens in chat does not stay in chat! 03:54, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

If a person is disrespectful in chat, they should get a chat ban. That's why there are separate bans for chat and editing. 04:24, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

technically they arent separate, chat bans are a subdivision of editing bans since in an editing ban you also cant go on chat-- 04:30, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

Even Sff9 has said chat issues are separate from wiki issues. If they weren't then a ban forum would have already been opened for literally everybody who has used chat. SeaTerror (talk) 04:42, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

I don't know much about that since I don't go on chat. If this is going to be an issue, we should probably open a separate forum on whether to use chat as a reason/support for an editing ban. 05:36, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

Yup this forum is now completely a waste of time. Chat and wiki are two separate things, always have been. 05:46, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

Part 4
1) As I said before, the age doesn't matter. And it's not NS's involvement that is important: It's your involvement. You still haven't said anything about your apparent inability to check Chapter 597/trust another user. It's all about your response to the issue.

2) Only now you're arguing about the topic of the edit war, you didn't even explain your methods then, only undermined the authority of 2 Admins silently. That's a big problem, as it shows how arrogant you are when you think you're right. And for the record, I still maintain that your method is an incorrect way to deal with the problem, as it creates broken links, which should always be avoided. It's all about your response to the issue, not the topic at hand though.

3) The most recent edit war on that page is not the only one on that page, that's why I linked the whole history. You have notable edit wars with DemonRin (about translating Navy) and Nada (about the disclaimer), which as far as I can tell you won only by exhausting the patience of the other editors. Your revision of DemonRin's last edit happened two weeks later during a time when DR was likely not to see it. You never attempted to discuss these in the proper locations, and only edit warred over them, using underhanded tactics to "win". The funniest part is that these issues still need to be discussed. But again, the topic of the edit war doesn't matter, it's your actions during it.

4) A chat issue yes, but people should still see it. Fact is that I'm still offended by it. This is not the only issue in this forum, and I wish other people would respond to any of the other points I've brought up.

5) Whenever undoing anyone's edit, you should always make an effort to make sure that every part of their edit is worth undoing. It's something I do all the time. If a vandal adds the word "poop" to a page, but also fixes a spelling error, you should make sure that you fix the spelling error too. It's why when undoing you still have the option to edit the page too. If you're not capable of the due diligence needed to responsibly revert edits, you shouldn't be allowed to revert anything.

6) I'll address this issue later, perhaps somewhere else. I need to do a few things first.

7) Showing that your behavior has not changed since your staff ban is an important part of this forum. Your inability to investigate NS's edit (before your staff ban) and your recent edit war with Meganoide (a few days ago) are very much about the same issue: Your inability to trust other editors you've warred with in the past and approach every one of their edits without bias and check the integrity of the edit.

8) You bring it up every time you try to type the word "Alabasta", and you have still argued about it in chat. And VGP did post in the second forum, though I don't see how that's relevant to this discussion. And I have re-read the forum, and yes, you were the only one keeping the argument going. Of the 9 people who posted in the forum, only 2 supported Arabasta, and it's worth noting that Cheese Lord's post to support Arabasta was the LAST post in the forum. "While I do agree with ST that Arabasta is the correct variant, there's no point in arguing if it's already settled. Cheese Lord (talk) 00:44, September 3, 2012 (UTC) " Only you kept the argument going, my point stands. And I've also just remembered that in the first sentence of that forum, you accuse DP of "lying", a tactic you often use in arguing that is awfully offensive and off-putting to anyone who's ever argued with you. You're calling me a liar in this forum right now, and I'm sure I don't have to link any other examples, since I'm sure people are capable of remembering the dozens of times you've done it.

I've just remembered another example of you ignoring the wiki's spelling choices. In mid-September 2013, on the Featured Article Polls, you tried to nominate "Jybura" instead of the proper spelling Jabra. When we tried to correct the link so that it used the proper spelling, which devolved into an edit war which was eventually stopped by DP. All that's fine, except you pulled the same goddamn trick next month!

9) I can't remember a single instance of you admitting you were wrong. I didn't ask you to link anything, though I think proof would be nice. I just asked you "When?", and instead of saying "I was wrong about this, this, and this", you just said "Mostly in chat". Seems like quite the cop-out to me. You can't even do it in this forum.

In case you didn't get this from reading it a bunch of times in this post: In your response, you should talk about your actions, ST. Not the actions of others, not the topics of edit wars, your actions. This forum is about your behavior, and nothing else. Talking about anything else is just obscuring the discussion away from what it needs to be about. Stop throwing up a smokescreen of small arguments and talk about yourself and why your behavior should be allowed. 18:10, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

Can I point out that ST is always ST? Just read the above three ban discussions and you will always find the exact same examples. Although now I'm not sure why this new discussion was brought up (sorry, tl;dr), but if it's for his attitude then why we didn't ban him before but we should it now? Are there specific cases? Do you ban him for the things were already brought up in the past? Or because he was graced three times for his behaviour so now he should be punished? Because I'm not sure why now he should be banned and before he shouldn't have been.

This forum is pointless. ST is a good guy (for the most part) and he's not gonna get banned. Supernova X-Drake aka Roranoa Zoro II (talk) 19:48, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

JSD, I just can't force myself to read those hugeass comments but about the screenshot part, I see an apology and a reply to that. So if you "are still offended", you shouldn't had told him it's fine. Also I see no reason at all why you would link this here. It was a chat issue, ST got banned for it, he apologized and it's over. (But oh well, thanks for the link, it's priceless :D) And levi, it was opened simply because of Galaxy's forth ban discussion which didn't end since he disabled his account. It's not due to a special issue or something like that. 19:58, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

Then until he doesn't make another huge mess, I don't see reasons for a ban.

There are current reasons for a ban, Levi and Staw. Unfortunately, you're going to to have to read my posts in their entirety to learn what they are. If you aren't going to be informed on the issue, then why are you commenting?

An apology almost always carries an implied promise of change. At the time I thought ST might be capable of change, so I accepted his apology. Now I find he hasn't changed, and that apology means little to me now. It's not a perfect thought, or necessarily the moral way of thinking, but I'm only human. 20:43, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

He didn't insult you after this issue. 20:49, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

If you're gonna restart a Ban discussion that is never gonna be agreed then why don't you just ignore anything that makes you guys feel insulted and get on with it. If he does something worthy for ban just mentioned along with the reference of your policy page. 21:20, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

Wait a second, Staw! Why are you trying to summarize for someone the reasons for a forum you admit you haven't even read?! That's some seriously fucked up shit. You should leave summation to people who actually know what's going on. 21:36, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

Nice I don't know how to reply argument.


 * I could reply to that in detail, but since you'll probably just say tl;dr to it, I'll just say "Same to you." 21:52, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

@Levi This was reopened because Gal's forum was reopened for doing exactly the same thing that ST has been doing for years and Gal probably would have been banned if he hadn't disabled his account. It isn't fair to ban Gal and give ST a free pass. 03:13, February 8, 2014 (UTC)

Actually it was already stated numerous times that it shouldn't have been opened due to the fact that Galaxy disabled his own account. SeaTerror (talk) 04:05, February 8, 2014 (UTC)

We don't need to talk about Gal's forum, we need to talk about ST's behavior, which contrary to popular belief, is in fact the topic of this forum. 06:04, February 8, 2014 (UTC)

Part 5
Again, on request.

I've seen a lot of people here and on chat refuse to even look at the above three forum topics or much of the evidence given before trying to defend ST. You know what? You don't have to. Just take a second and think about what that means. There has been so much discussion about the trouble surrounding ST that you guys don't even want to touch it. That alone should be indicative of the on-going issue ST's attitude and work ethics have become. He was globally banned due to his behaviour. He's been banned from multiple wikis for his behaviour. He has already been up for ban three times on this wiki for his behaviour - now four.

I understand that a lot of people here have no respect for authority figures, but when an administrator has opened a ban forum multiple times for somebody - that should say a lot. DP, Yata, Sff and Deva - you guys are the admins. If ST is really a problem than just ban him. You would be entirely within your right to do so. No matter what members of the community may say, these ban forums are only required when someone who isn't an administrator wants somebody banned. I don't think people understand how lenient Yata has been by giving you all the chance to have your say in the matter. Don't waste it.

Right now nobody other than JSD is actually discussing this forum. Most people are blindly defending a user without reading up on the issue beforehand, or trying to deflect this to a defunct forum. Just stop. And if you seriously say things like, "Too long; didn't read" than you shouldn't even have a say in the first place. 07:40, February 8, 2014 (UTC)

I said before that a ban forum being opened 4 times usually means something is wrong. I'm just surprised that none of the previous forums resulted in a ban. 08:22, February 8, 2014 (UTC)

What Kuro said is completely untrue. The ban forums are actually part of the rules of this wiki. So the admins can't ban any user except for cases of extreme vandalism which is usually from throw away new user accounts. IPs get banned for the same reason. Plus the people who refuse to look at the others are correct since the first 2 forums are incredibly old and a crapload of people even said the third one shouldn't have been opened. Most of the 2nd ban forum was a discussion about somebody trying to manipulate the poll format to guarantee a vote also. I also did technically got banned by staff partly due to the 2nd discussion's reason for the ban. I also never contested the ban since I knew I deserved it 100%. SeaTerror (talk) 15:54, February 8, 2014 (UTC)

Didn't we say that if Galaxy got banned then we would reopen ST's ban forum? Well, Gal didn't get banned, he just raged quit and disabled his account. Therefore this forum shouldn't even be opened. Roranoa Drake II (talk) 18:08, February 8, 2014 (UTC)

@Videogamep: that's because ban forums are actually popularity contests, instead of being a simple way to prevent admins from abusing their powers. (Hence Kuro's post.)

@Roranoa Drake II: your reasoning is wrong, because implication is not equivalence. If there are reasons to ban ST, then we open a forum, Gal has/should have nothing to do with this.

@Kuro: while I agree with your post as a whole, I don't think your second paragraph is true. There are rules and admins have to respect them. Of course, rules can turn out to be wrong, and then have to be changed.

I say we Ban him, too many white people on chat anyways. Man of Myth is Dayman (talk) 21:07, February 8, 2014 (UTC)

I've been requested to post on here, so here I go.... SeaTerror is an arrogant, rude, offensive, and highly disrespectful person, and I feel that the wiki would be so much better off without him.

ST is highly disrespectful and rude to other users, particularly those who go against his opinions, one of the most notables being NinjaSheik. You only merely have to go in his contribution page to find examples of how incredibly rude he is towards other users, which I find alarming on how easy it is to find examples on how rude he is to others. ST is also incapable of letting his grudges go, no matter how old they may be. I've frequently seen him mocking users he dislikes, either face to face or behind their backs, even if their disagreements happened a long time ago, a rather significant example on his inability to let go of grudges. His inability of letting his grudges go and refusal to attempt to work with other users is also clear in his distrustful nature. ST is not capable of trusting another editor to do their work and is constantly checking users' edits (particularly those he doesn't get along with), and very often, reverting their edits without even checking if they are right or wrong, which is a nuisance to everyone.

Whenever ST is in an edit war, he frequently refuses to give a good and acceptable reason on why he disagrees with the opposing side, and most of the time, I find his "reasons" something along the lines of, "Because I say so," or "I'm always right and you're always wrong, that's why." These are not very helpful in discussions, and only makes it even more challenging for other users to state on why they disagree with him. ST is very closed minded, and refuses to listen to other users' opinions, no matter what. ST also often blatantly ignores the community's decisions, which is very frustrating for the rest of the community. His disregard for authority is very frustrating to deal with as well, and even worse, his attitude have encouraged other users to develop similar attitudes, behaviors, work ethics and disregard for authority, because they think "If ST can get away with his attitude, then so can I". So not only is he a tiresome editor to work with, he is also an extremely harmful influence on other users and ultimately, the wiki.

Overall, I strongly believe that his attitude, behavior, and editing practices are highly harmful to the wiki, and he needs to make a complete change to his attitude, behavior and editing practices or he needs to go. And despite rare apologies and promises to change his behavior, three ban discussions, his fourth ban discussion ongoing, multiple bans from various wikis, and being globally banned by the staff, his behavior still hasn't changed at all. Therefore, I find it highly unlikely that he is about to genuinely change his behavior.

ST, you're arguing on how old some of the examples are, so here's what I say on the topic. It doesn't matter how old the examples are, because your behavior still haven't changed at all. If we were talking about someone whose behavior changed, then you would be right, the old examples would not count. But your attitude have yet to change, even after rare apologies and promises that you will change, three highly hotly discussions on your ban, multiple bans on various wikis, and a rather infamous global ban by the staff.

Staw, and whoever else who are blindly defending ST, if you didn't read the discussion at all, or only skimmed through it, and you want to participate in it, then for the love of good discussions, read the discussion thoroughly. Otherwise, you have absolutely nothing to offer to this discussion at all. 21:48, February 8, 2014 (UTC)

^I agree wholeheartedly. 23:31, February 8, 2014 (UTC)

It will be easier to break it down in points instead of responding all at once.

1) "ST is highly disrespectful and rude to other users, particularly those who go against his opinions, one of the most notables being NinjaSheik."

Ninjashiek still doesn't count since I was not the only one who undid her edits and it is incredibly old.

2) "You only merely have to go in his contribution page to find examples of how incredibly rude he is towards other users, which I find alarming on how easy it is to find examples on how rude he is to others."

You will now have to actually provide examples of these. Remember though, chat doesn't count for a wiki issue. I admit that I am sarcastic a lot so people might think that its me being rude or uncivil.

3) "ST is also incapable of letting his grudges go, no matter how old they may be. I've frequently seen him mocking users he dislikes, either face to face or behind their backs, even if their disagreements happened a long time ago, a rather significant example on his inability to let go of grudges. His inability of letting his grudges go and refusal to attempt to work with other users is also clear in his distrustful nature."

This also needs evidence to be posted. I dropped a lot of issues before. If this is about Ninjasheik the last times I have mentioned her was 1) using her as an example in a certain forum, and 2) If other people brought her up, such as asking what her edits were. The last time this happened was like a month and a half ago when Staw brought her up. I haven't brought her name up just to say "Her edits were bad" or anything like that for a very, very, long time. In fact I don't think I ever did that except for when somebody else brought her edits up other than when we were having problems with her edits.

4) "ST is not capable of trusting another editor to do their work and is constantly checking users' edits (particularly those he doesn't get along with), and very often, reverting their edits without even checking if they are right or wrong, which is a nuisance to everyone."

Evidence needs to be posted. I check a lot of edits daily (usually IPs) to make sure there is no vandalism or anything like that. I also don't revert correct edits just to make a reversion. There's absolutely no evidence for that. For users who are known to do a lot of bad edits I also check them. I don't check a lot of users edits like Fliu's for instance because I know for a fact he does good work.

5) "Whenever ST is in an edit war, he frequently refuses to give a good and acceptable reason on why he disagrees with the opposing side, and most of the time, I find his "reasons" something along the lines of, "Because I say so," or "I'm always right and you're always wrong, that's why." These are not very helpful in discussions, and only makes it even more challenging for other users to state on why they disagree with him."

Evidence needs to be posted for this. I have never said anything close to anything you stated. My most recent edit war was with Canuck because he was removing the active discussion template incorrectly from still live discussions. One of which the last comment had been made only a day ago at the time he first removed it. Plus the one Just already mentioned in this forum that I already went over in previous responses here.

6) "ST is very closed minded, and refuses to listen to other users' opinions, no matter what. ST also often blatantly ignores the community's decisions, which is very frustrating for the rest of the community."

Major evidence needs to be posted for this one. I definitely need to see examples of where I have blatantly reverted something (except when I made a mistake) that was polled on for instance.

7) "His disregard for authority is very frustrating to deal with as well, and even worse, his attitude have encouraged other users to develop similar attitudes, behaviors, work ethics and disregard for authority."

This one also needs major evidence. I argue with them when they do something that is against the rules like when DP deleted a power level blog that didn't break any rules right after the poll said to allow them.

8) "because they think "If ST can get away with his attitude, then so can I". So not only is he a tiresome editor to work with, he is also an extremely harmful influence on other users and ultimately, the wiki."

This one needs the most evidence out of everything you have said. Show the users who have done anything similar and also show that it was actually due to any of my actions. This one need the most evidence especially since correlation does not imply causation.

9) "Overall, I strongly believe that his attitude, behavior, and editing practices are highly harmful to the wiki, and he needs to make a complete change to his attitude, behavior and editing practices or he needs to go."

I already asked for evidence in previous sections so I'll have to reiterate that it needs evidence. This section sounds more like an opinion than any factual evidence.

10) "And despite rare apologies and promises to change his behavior, three ban discussions, his fourth ban discussion ongoing, multiple bans from various wikis, and being globally banned by the staff, his behavior still hasn't changed at all. Therefore, I find it highly unlikely that he is about to genuinely change his behavior."

Anything that happened on another wikia (unless it actually effects this one) does not count. This is the one time in my response where I will actually flat out say it isn't true that I haven't changed. It is actually true that I have changed since I got in a lot less arguments, edit wars, and even swear a lot less. I have also flat out stated that I deserved the staff ban for what I said and did.

11) "ST, you're arguing on how old some of the examples are, so here's what I say on the topic. It doesn't matter how old the examples are, because your behavior still haven't changed at all. If we were talking about someone whose behavior changed, then you would be right, the old examples would not count. But your attitude have yet to change, even after rare apologies and promises that you will change, three highly hotly discussions on your ban, multiple bans on various wikis, and a rather infamous global ban by the staff"

Nope, it actually does matter how old something is. I already showed in the previous sections responses that what you said isn't true. The old examples don't count for anything especially the Ninjashiek part. It was also stated that this forum shouldn't have been opened since the condition was it would only be opened if Galaxy was banned. You need to post the evidence that I have not changed because it is simply 100%, flat out, untrue.

12) "Staw, and whoever else who are blindly defending ST, if you didn't read the discussion at all, or only skimmed through it, and you want to participate in it, then for the love of good discussions, read the discussion thoroughly. Otherwise, you have absolutely nothing to offer to this discussion at all."

I already told Staw to read it before posting but he pretty much ignored me. The others should read everything too. SeaTerror (talk) 00:31, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

In response to comments of my post being invalid... Assuming I can still read and understand the English language, the only mention of forums is, "For some cases, a forum will be made discussing the reasons for the ban request." I'm sure some of you will interpret that different in ST's defence however. But do you know what else I see?

Purposefully insulting or offending other editors of the Wiki is unacceptable and is a ban-worthy offense. The Wiki is a community of internet users working towards a common goal, and petty insults impair the community's ability to reach their goal.

So now that we're clear on that and have dozens if not hundreds of examples of ST's terrible behaviour towards users directly or purposely impeding progress on the wiki - can we get a poll going (or have an admin just get it over with already)? 00:18, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Oi all you guys keep bringing up the negatives about the defendant. Why aren't people listing the positive things that SeaTerror has contributed to the community? And don't troll by saying that he hasn't done anything, he must have done something good at one point. Roranoa Drake II (talk) 00:34, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Poll can only be opened. Also you're twisting that around since it does not say "A user will be banned right away if they do one of these". Plus you're forgetting chat issues don't apply to wiki issues. You also ignored the steps to a ban section. The last time I blatantly insulted anybody in a wiki issue was what I got banned by staff for. Which I already said I completely deserved. SeaTerror (talk) 00:39, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

You have been doing it for years. I never mentioned chat issues. You are the one ignoring the ban steps. And despite that global ban you have not changed. Say whatever you want ST, it doesn't matter. This is happening and you only have yourself to hold responsible for it all. 02:03, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

I think you need to reread the ban rules again then if you think I'm the one ignoring them. Admins can't ban people unless they are new accounts (vandals) or IPs without a forum. I have to reiterate what I said in my response to Jade but You need to provide evidence that I never changed. Because I certainty have already provided the evidence that I have. Your last sentence was incredibly arrogant. A poll can happen but a ban cannot just be given out without a poll. SeaTerror (talk) 02:18, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

The ban rules don't say anything about requiring forums. The only times forums are mentioned are "For some cases, a forum will be made discussing the reasons for the ban request." and "Anonymous users (IPs) and new registered users will not be granted the privilege of forums regarding their bans, and they will be banned at an admin's discretion.". It doesn't say anywhere that regular users are guaranteed forums, it is just how things are usually done. 04:04, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Actually it is how things are always done. Admins can't ban a regular without a forum first. I will requote myself again about the forum rules. It does not say "A user will be banned right away if they do any one of these." I'm also not denying that I have done anything wrong. I obviously have done a lot of things wrong. I'm just arguing against the misinterpretation of that rule. If enough people want a poll then there will be a poll. If there isn't then there won't be one. It can go either way. I'm not claiming one or the other. SeaTerror (talk) 04:29, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't say, "A user will be banned right away if they do any one of these," but you are just inventing, "Admins can't ban a regular without a forum first". The rules only say that in some cases will a forum be made. It is not a requirement beyond an obsessive adherence to what you're used to.

Registered users will be warned on their talk pages, and if they continue to disregard the rules and the warning, they will be banned.

JSD has already done a good job throwing some evidence your way, along with this entire forum serving as a point to what has come from your behaviour, and many regular users including admins, rollbacks and moderators have already expressed their desire to see you banned or gone. Also, there is nothing arrogant about reminding somebody that they are responsible for their own actions. 04:58, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not going to keep arguing the incorrect interpretation of the ban rules for something that we have always done. The "many" editors don't exist since a lot of people haven't commented on this forum so if you mean chat then that is still separate as been said before. From what is shown in this discussion it is about even between wanting a ban and not wanting one. Also this is what I was talking about. "Say whatever you want ST, it doesn't matter. This is happening" You are implying that I am getting banned without a discussion or a poll right there. That is arrogance. Also I already responded to Just in my previous comments on this section. SeaTerror (talk) 05:21, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

"Admins can't ban people unless they are new accounts (vandals) or IPs without a forum."

Not true. Sure, you have more edits than them and you're more of a regular, but both are users who have contributed enough to be able to vote on polls at the least. If those users can be banned without a forum, so can you.

"The "many" editors don't exist since a lot of people haven't commented on this forum so if you mean chat then that is still separate as been said before."

I haven't commented because I'm sick of the same old song and dance. I have better things to do then argue back and forth with people who make keep making excuses for you. I don't participate in chat, so I don't care how much of an entertainer you are, but you edit war more than any other user on the wiki. That's more than enough reason on its own to justify a ban. What else needs to be said? 06:23, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

It seems like Sff was right about these forums becoming popularity contests. That seems to be the only reason the previous ones didn't end in bans. 07:42, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

"ST is also incapable of letting his grudges go, no matter how old they may be. I've frequently seen him mocking users he dislikes, either face to face or behind their backs, even if their disagreements happened a long time ago, a rather significant example on his inability to let go of grudges. His inability of letting his grudges go and refusal to attempt to work with other users is also clear in his distrustful nature."

How the fuck is this a bannable offense? Having fun while talking about another user in chat is in no way something you should be banned about... If for example I go on chat and while having fun with other users, I start talking about how roa (Just giving an example here) makes stupid edits, would that be a reason to ban me? And what else, ban me from the wiki as a whole too? I don't think so.

And if you want to take it to chat issues, let's see how many times ST has been banned from in there! Joke ban Joke ban, Oh look! 2 whole times for one day each! So even if you complain about his attitude in the chat, which is something you shouldn't do, there is evidence that his attitude hasn't been considered worth banning more than twice.

K, I'm done posting. 07:53, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Nobody is using chat as a reason to ban him. I don't understand why people keep bringing that up in ST's 'defence'. And how do you get "having fun" from "inability of letting his grudges go and refusal to attempt to work with other users"?

Staw - read the ban rules that have now been linked and directly quoted in this forum. It's exactly what this wiki considers a bannable offence. 08:06, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Nada is the only one here who brought up using chat as a reason to ban him. Everyone else has been talking about his rudeness, stubbornness and difficulty to work with outside of chat. 08:33, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

At Staw-Hat, "How the fuck is this a bannable offense": it is bannable if he is insulting/mocking others and using past events that are no longer relevant to argue his cases. 08:53, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not saying chat is a lone reason to ban him. It's just something to consider as the chat is just as part of the community as forums and talk pages. It's my only contribution to this forum here now. 08:56, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, we know he edit wars, he is rude at times, that's two offenses at edits. If he's rude at chats, then he should be banned in chats, that's a separate matter. 09:16, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

I feel as though we've discussed this long enough. Unless anybody would like to present reasons as to why ST should not be banned (reasons that explain why he can be considered a benefit to the wiki and not just tearing down or dismissing everybody who'd say otherwise), we should start this poll and finally reach a conclusion to this forum. 09:39, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

@Kuro I object \( ._.)/ Roranoa Drake II (talk) 15:37, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Sure let's poll and get it over with. 15:39, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

So why now we want to ban ST again? Is that for something recent he have done? Is it for "his behaviour" which after 3 ban discussion didn't changed? Is it for something he did on chat? And don't remind me on another forum, this is the forum about ST so explain it here.


 * I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I think my first post probably does the best job of summarizing this forum, and includes many of the examples other people are citing in this discussion. The examples include older examples of his and examples of similar actions from just a few days ago. Also it outlines my reasons for why this ban forum is truly justified to have now. 17:13, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Part 6
Now, since ST likes the numbered response style so much, I'll respond to his most recent numbered post.

1) "Ninjashiek still doesn't count since I was not the only one who undid her edits and it is incredibly old. "

Uh, yes those edits do "count". We are not talking about the actions of any other users who undid her edits, we are talking about YOUR actions. The actions of others do not excuse your own actions. And as far as I can tell, you are the user with the the largest grudge against her, repeatedly using her style of editing as a sarcastic insult towards other users. It would be an incredible task for me to link examples of this, since the forums or talk pages they were posted on were largely irrelevant to her. Oh wait, here's one. And another! (Note that he posted on 2 sections in the second example, and it's the second one that is important) Reminder: This is not an invitation for you to talk about the content of NinjaShiek's edits, but instead you should respond with why it's ok to use one user's editing style to insult another, in effect, insulting both of them.

2) "You will now have to actually provide examples of these. ... I admit that I am sarcastic a lot so people might think that its me being rude or uncivil."

Uh, yes being sarcastic can be being rude or uncivil, depending on the context. If you are being sarcastic in general that might be considered to be ok, but when you are sarcastic to target another user or respond to their argument, that is definitely being rude and uncivil. It's not civil to argue through the use of sarcasm instead of real words. And if you want examples, some of my earlier posts demonstrate this, as well as the second example I just linked in #1.

3) See #1.

4) My earlier post regarding Meganoide's edit a few days ago is a fine example of this. You believe Meganoide to be a "bad editor", and you stalk his edits and revert them without even properly examining the content of the edit.

5 and 6) I actually have plans for this afternoon, so I can't spend all day trying to track down examples of this. But I will.

7) Evidence of your disrespect was already given. The Arabasta 1 forum was justly closed, and examples of your disrespect towards DP are found in Arabasta 2. Also, the image I linked earlier of your edit war with two admins without even attempting to discuss the issue is a great example.

8) Evidence really can't be given for this. It's too subjective and requires any hard evidence to be posted by people who have been influenced by your actions since we all aren't mind readers. However, evidence isn't really needed for this point. If people believe that your actions are a bad influence on the wiki, then they are more than welcome to use that as a reason to ban you. Personally, I think I could list some examples of other users being influenced by your behavior, but doing so would bring up the actions of other active users and distract from the issue at hand: Your behavior.

9) Yeah, Jade's post is opinion. It uses the phrase "Overall, I strongly believe..." and is used as summation for earlier arguments used in the wiki. It's just part of the structure of her post and I have no idea why you are responding to it like it needs facts and proof behind it.

10) We cannot ban you for behavior on other wikis. However, mentioning that other wikis have not put up with your behavior is something that we are totally allowed to mention.

11) I've said it before and I'll say it again: Older posts are relevant because your pattern of behavior has not changed.

And this statement is total bullshit: "this forum shouldn't have been opened since the condition was it would only be opened if Galaxy was banned". There was no consensus on this, and no rules back this statement. We are more than welcome to judge the behavior of two separate users in two separate forums. The only common thread between two forums is that people perceive the behavior of you and Galaxy to be similarly harmful towards the wiki. This forum is totally legitimate.

12) I'm glad that you agree people should read the forum before they post. I applaud your efforts to make sure people make informed decisions and wish you would urge for this more vocally.

13) Let's say this is about Kuro's idea that you could be banned without a forum. I actually agree with you that this forum should go to poll. The majority is unclear and some users may find your actions to be subjective in their negative qualities. However, Kuro is right that theoretically we would not need a forum to ban an experienced user. In cases where rules are completely and totally against our policies, such as threatening and insulting behavior, and instant ban is more than justified. The best example I can actually think of for this is your staff ban: You insulted and threatened Nada and staff saw this as a reason to initially ban you for 1 year. That kind of abusive behavior should not be tolerated, and admins should not have to wait around for a forum to ban a user who is clearly being harmful to our community.

Regarding your opposition to it though, I have some serious issues with your argument. You basically state "this is the way we've always done it" as a reason why you are right. The rules state otherwise. This is basically the same as the argument we had a few days ago, except with reversed roles. There you cited the rules as written as a reason why you are correct, and I said "this is the way we've always done it" as part of my point. Yet you accuse me of "just making up stuff again" while you are in the right. Why is it ok for you to do the same thing I did? Seems to me your argument there is hypocrisy at its finest.

Also, I'd like to mention that you never did respond to the content of this post, despite my request for you to do so. I understand that the argument evolved a bit between that post and your following post, but I would still like a response to the material contained in that post. I'm going to re-post the last paragraph of that so that others can understand what should be posted:

In case you didn't get this from reading it a bunch of times in this post: In your response, you should talk about your actions, ST. Not the actions of others, not the topics of edit wars, your actions. This forum is about your behavior, and nothing else. Talking about anything else is just obscuring the discussion away from what it needs to be about. Stop throwing up a smokescreen of small arguments and talk about yourself and why your behavior should be allowed.

I also have some words for those defending ST: Please argue about things that are truly relevant to this forum. Particularly ST's behavior. We do not need to argue about rules, Gal's forum, or chat. We need to argue about the behavior of ST. I also believe that posting positive things that ST has done is not relevant to this forum. This forum is about how his negative behavior has negatively affected our community, and no amount of positive edits should excuse his negative actions. I believe the same is true for any editor, not just ST. Before you post please consider if what you are going to post is going to keep this forum on track, or distract it from its true purpose: Discussion of banning SeaTerror because of his behavior. 18:22, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

1) Nope again it doesn't count. You are bringing up incredibly retroactive stuff to try pushing for a ban instead of showing something recent wish would actually have more bearing. I already said that the most recent time I used her as an example was on a somewhat recent forum. You are also using it as examples when I was not the only one who undid her edits which makes the argument invalid to try claiming a ban. Using her as an example like that was also not something I had done in a long time.

2) Sarcasm is real words. Sarcasm can also fit an argument such as using sarcasm to make a point.

3) You're making stuff up again. There is absolutely no evidence that I stalk his edits. If I was stalking his edits like you claim I do then I would literally have no time to do anything else or I would be undoing his edits all the time.

4) Yeah, you didn't even read that section. I asked for actual evidence that there is a disrespect for authority which you never gave and are still using a retroactive forum of something I never brought up again.

5) So then there is no evidence that people "disrespect" authority due to my actions. That takes care of that argument then.

6) She repeated what she said so I repeated I needed evidence for it.

7) That one wasn't just about other wiki bans which still has no bearing on any problem here.

8) I already proved you and Jade wrong when you said I didn't change so this is another invalid argument. Go post the evidence if you think I haven't changed. Also it was said his forum that it would open if Galaxy was banned so when he disabled his own account then it shouldn't have been opened.

9) You're bring up extremely old things again and I got banned by staff for it. Show me threatening anybody right now in my edits any time after my staff ban and then that argument would be valid.

10) Actually people are twisting that "rule" around just to try to force an admin to ban right away instead of having a poll. It was made by obvious by Kuro's comment" "Say whatever you want ST, it doesn't matter. This is happening".

11) The issue with your arguments is that they keep on bringing up old and dead issues like anything that has to do with Ninjashiek. You seem incapable of arguing about ANYTHING recent so you keep bringing up that old stuff. I never once said any of my behavior was right or my edit warring. I never said that my actions were justified. The issue here and now is the fact that you are posting retroactive "evidence" or something from chat which is a completely separate issue as stated by multiple people other than myself. SeaTerror (talk) 21:08, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Why don't we just vote on it. This is starting to become repetitive. 22:07, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

Looks good. Any more non-repetitive comments? If not, we can start. Length will be determined if it goes through. 22:36, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

The poll is open. 07:52, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

Changing the poll length for deciding whether to ban to one week, per the rules. That's the way we've always done it, so there shouldn't be any objections. 08:04, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought it was two weeks. My mistake. 16:17, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

Part 7
I know I am not a regular anymore, but this topic seems to be about keep re-listing ST for banment until it happens. Eventually the odds go against ST, there is enough users without long-term experience with him as a user and he'll get banned. But for some of the older editors, who know ST and know who ST is as a editor.. This is kinda a waste of time. Hell I've done worst things on the wikia then ST and I'm a founding member. I had arguents and fights with other editors... I've been a bigger stubborn idiot then most folks. Should I be banned?

If the editor does far more good edits then bad, you can "excuse" a few because their otherwise a good editor. We all have our personalities and we make mistakes - we're human. While banning vandals, flamers, trolls, etc is essential, you also have to consider its not a good idea to make outsider of long-term editors, or to expel them because their not with the current "in" crowd or popular opinion of the wikia. At the end of the day, wikias are about getting a varied opinions and views together and using them to make the best approach on a subject.

Hell, while I regret supporting the side that kept Joekido a editor in Joekido's banments... Ask me to ban him... Still I would be hard pushed since while I now have issues with him, I have some experience of editing alongside him and even his ideas helped shaped the wikia as it is today. This conflicts between editors just result in refinement of wikia rules and guidelines, to make things clear. And honestly... ST's a swell guy... He was when I was a regular and even from a lurkers POV, I don't think any less of him.

Look I have no influence on modern day wikia and its likely my plea for sensibility will fall on deaf ears here; but THINK guys, seriously, on the idea of banning ST. Most of the arguments are dated and if you have issues with ST, you should be addressing them with ST and not just ban him as a solution. :-/ One-Winged Hawk (talk) 23:34, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

The issue is how consistent his behavior is and his apparent inability to change. He's been stubborn and argumentative as long as I've been here and has shown no signs of change. 01:00, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

First off, to Angel I say that I think when the wiki was small those hostile edits needed to be tolerated because the wiki needed those editors to survive. But having a long-term hostile editing environment is probably a major part of what drove almost all of the founding editors away. We're a larger, better wiki now, and if we are to stay that way, we need to hold our editors to a higher standard than "do more good than harm". We shouldn't allow anyone to harm the community.

And I'd like to say that cries that we're banning ST for old behavior are unfounded. Of all the examples I've linked, all but one of them (the NinjaShiek examples) are from after the last poll in this forum was opened. That makes them all recent and very relevant.

More importantly though, I have one more link I'd like to show. It's exactly what ST has said we haven't been showing: Evidence of him being rude and insulting outside of chat from a recent discussion. Here he is, implying that a fellow editor doesn't have a brain. I don't see how this kind of behavior can be excused any longer. 04:46, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Should have been pretty obvious what that image link actually meant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man Also no your examples were all actually extremely old so they aren't relevant. Not just the NinjaShiek ones either. SeaTerror (talk) 05:06, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

"Old and silly", etc. Let's face it, ST is currently being offensive. 06:07, February 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * I just hope this time doesn't end up as another popularity contest. 06:12, February 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * Its not popularity contest, this is about others trying to get their way and bringing up a issue until they get it. Eventually, the odds get stacked against the person, and by the fact this is the fourth time its occurred, people start actually believing the BS someone is spewing out. No offense, but I've seen this elsewhere on the net, and in real life.


 * Also Yatan, consider also that people are right now criticizing and directly having issues with ST, therefore, ST is going to react both here and elsewhere. If someone has a issue with another, the other person will try and take a stand or defend themselves or their at least their actions and I wouldn't blame ST at this point for being a little rude because he keeps getting this time and time again. You may or may not be intending it, but a lot of what I can see going on just in this forum topic can be counted even as near enough "bait food" subjects. His rude, stubborn,yes, get over it, there are 5% at least edits from him which are good ones.


 * This whole 4th incident is just an excuse to bring ST into the mix because someone else got banned and someone thought it would be a good idea to jump on the opportunity to dig at ST once more. The reason I'm even talking right now is because at this point your taking advantage of the wikia system we have in place if you do this sort of thing and that can be just as bad as someone who vandalizes pages. I may not be a regular, but I can see whats going on here as plain as others.


 * Now I'm not going to say ST is immune to being banned, because if ST does something even I wont' stand by I'll dam well support a complete ban at that point, but honestly, if this ban DOES go ahead its a unjustified ban because its more personnel then it is an attempt to set an example of bad behavior. And unless a punishment is aimed at doing that, its not doing the job a punishment is meant to do; which is put people off of further bad behavior.


 * And since one of the topics of OnePiece happens to be the implications of applying Justice, you guys can draw your own conclusions on if this is a justified punishment. One-Winged Hawk (talk)

Angel, nobody was banned prior to this forum being opened. The person disabled their account before anything was decided.

We aren't taking advantage of the system. The rules outright say that offensive behaviour isn't tolerated. ST, like any other user, is free to be rude, argumentative and stubborn. But we by no means have to put up with it. If the actions of a user creates a hostile environment, they shouldn't be supported because they happen to be a veteran editor. ST has turned away many users through his edits and behaviour, users both new and old. He's not the only one, but he one of the most prominent, and even globally banned by Wikia staff, only to return unchanged and repeating the actions that got him in trouble in the first place.

And as you said in your first post, you aren't a regular user any more. You aren't current on events or the users here. And so far your argument has been, "What you've said is true, ST is all of those things. I've even done worse things. But people make mistakes, so he should just be forgiven." Do you know what else people can do? Change. Improve. When confronted with their flaws, they shouldn't just be ignored or babied by others. ST has been doing this for years now, and shows no sign of changing. It doesn't matter if he's done some good because he's done just as much bad and there is no good reason for why we have to continue to put up with it. 15:37, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

"ST has turned away many users through his edits and behaviour, users both new and old." You have to post evidence for this now. I already proved I changed after my staff ban so that part of the argument is wrong. SeaTerror (talk) 16:07, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

ST, you haven't done anything to prove anything. You have just ignored or deflected and expected everybody to take your word at face value. However there are at least a dozen if not more examples of your unchanged behaviour, as provided by other users.

As for evidence, here's one, me.

As noticed by other users, I haven't actively participated in forums or talk page discussions for a while now. The only reason I started again was because people asked me to. And you're the reason why I hesitate. Any conversation with you, any argument, any discussion, is like we're just running in circles. You have your belief, your sole perspective, and you never change. But you go to great lengths to stall and dismiss anything anybody else says. You are unreasonable, and when it comes to discussing change, unbearable. These are my feelings, and are a direct result of your behaviour throughout the wiki as a whole. If anybody reading this feels the same way, feel free to add an indented comment to this post.

I get that you can be a good guy. I get that you're friendly. But the minute there's a difference in belief, you cannot discuss things rationally. There is never any compromise. Just you and what you think is right. As far as you are concerned, everybody else is wrong. And that is why I think that removing you will benefit the community. It will help reach better conclusions in forums, talk pages and any other issues, as well as avoiding the light novels they now turn into. All because we'll have removed somebody who fights with everything he has to stick his feet in the ground and halt progress.

Feel free to accuse me of being biased. But anybody who knows me knows that I do my best to be reasonable and understand both sides of a situation. While you do make things uncomfortable for me, I would only bring it up if I seriously thought it was for the betterment of the wiki and its community. 16:45, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Part 8
Actually their "evidence" has all been retroactive and nothing recent has been posted except for Just's last 2 points in his initial comment. I already proved I changed in my other comments. Go compare how I was before the staff ban and you will see the actual difference. There are also plenty of things I don't agree with but I never brought up again. You're now making more accusations without evidence. I have compromised plenty of times and if you can find something where this happened that isn't incredibly old then that would actually be nice. So far the "evidence" that has been brought up has been nothing but extremely old or fairly old edits. Forums will always be long and so will some talk pages because they are meant to be debated when discussed. Have I gone too far on some debates? Obviously but so have many other people. Most debates die out since nobody actively discusses them. All I really am asking for is recent evidence and nothing that is retroactive. SeaTerror (talk) 17:06, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

All of these are from after the last time this forum closed, also over the course of the course of the last year:


 * Repeatedly reverting the removal of an image with no reason.


 * Reverting an image with no reason given.


 * Ignoring the newly-created image war rules.


 * And again, but also ignoring a talk page majority.


 * The things here show his problem with authority.


 * Ignoring the decision of a talk page, almost a month after the discussion closed.


 * This one's a doosie. First you've got him showing an intense personal bias against Greg from the OP podcast, who only kindly requested that he be given credit for his work being added to the wiki. It's embarrassing for all of us to be stuck not adhering to request because ST wants to drag out the argument for a personal bias. Then there's the massive edit war over the box template caused by him. It was bad enough for Zodiaque to request his ban in the forum.

Are those good enough for you, ST? They're all fairly recent and none have occurred before the last time your ban was discussed. Pretty clear pattern of behavior, if you ask me. 17:35, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

1) Wasn't the only one who undid those edits. Though this is actually a good example for once.

2) One off edit so this is an example of looking for ban excuses.

3) Best example so far. I don't even remember that one.

4) Was not a talk page majority at the time so that is another excuse. Never reverted it again when the talk actually finished. Plus ironically you're using an example of something where somebody else also reverted it.

5) This entire one is just obviously a joke. MasterDeva was the only one who wanted those changes and kept reverting them to how he wanted THEN protected them. The talk page majority on the original discussion said not to use them.

6) One off edit again.

7) We had our reasons already posted on the forum. The the box edit war was due to the fact it hadn't been decided to use those yet. This is a better example though. So far you showed some good examples and then really bad ones. I would say the MasterDeva one was the worst example. SeaTerror (talk) 17:54, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

I forgot to mention one more:


 * Forum:History Section Lengths contains some of ST's "best" arguing and is a prime example of him holding the wiki back single-handedly.

I'm not responding to your posts in the interest of keeping this forum short and easy to read. I will say though that I'm disappointed your reasoning continues to be "other people have done this too" or debating the topic shown yet again. You've yet to talk directly about your own behavior. And now that I think of it, you've yet to supply an example of a time when you have admitted you have been wrong. I'd even give you credit if you could just freshly admit some instances right now. 18:11, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Actually so far you have yet to post something that was me alone other than the third example which I will admit I was wrong about. I also never stated that any of my behavior was inexcusable. I even stated that some of it was wrong. Also that last example is another one where I wasn't the only one that stated something shouldn't be changed but I did eventually drop it. SeaTerror (talk) 18:26, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Another person doing it doesn't automatically make you right. The forum on history section lengths only became an argument when you got involved; until then it was a polite discussion and you kept arguing for your side long after anyone else supporting it gave up. That's also a more recent example of you bringing up NinjaSheik. 21:36, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

"I did eventually drop it." Keyword being "eventually". From my count, you posted 27 times on that forum. And from what else I see only Vaz even hinted at being on your side, but then conceded to the clear majority. However, you still posted sixteen times after Vaz conceded. That's over half of your posts. Doesn't that seem a little excessive? At that point, you've clearly argued past when it should be acceptable for one person to argue. Why should it matter if you dropped it "eventually" when you've already wasted so much of everyone's time and effort? 23:14, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Part 9
For the... (100th? 1000th?) time, SeaTerror undid my edits. In this case, we talk about Magellan's page. First, I've explained in the page why I removed some sentences. Second, I contacted the other user explaining my reasons. But for SeaTerror, nothing is important. He never cares. And you, people, you never ban him. Countless proofs of his arrogant behaviour, and two of you are saying "no, only old examples". Old?? Open your eyes! --Meganoide (talk) 20:03, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

I don't see your voting for his ban though. 20:09, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You are eligible to vote for his ban, if you so choose, Meganoide. 20:14, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

I know I can vote, JSD, however thank you. I'm only waiting for Sunday for posting my vote.

Staw, we're not talking about MY vote. I'm talking about YOUR vote. HOW!! HOW!! How can you vote agaist the ban for a user who NEVER, NEVER, listen the other's opinions?? Meganoide (talk) 20:25, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

I'll decide later if I'll vote or not, but you should remember that "not voting" is also a valid option if you don't strongly oppose or support the ban.

While I dont want ST gone coz he's a nice guy to me,that is the only reason I can think of for him not to be banned,so I dont wanna vote ;_; But his behaviour is certainly banworthy:Most people who voted for him not to be banned came to the forum with an already biased attitude"Fuck the forum,I dont even care for the reasons-I'm just gonna vote for him not to be banned".--

I really appreciate your honesty, Roranoa. But how can you be against his ban, if you know what he's doing? Please, believe in this thing and remember it: not voting is the same thing as voting against his ban. --Meganoide (talk) 14:31, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

No it is absolutely not the same thing, and what a stupid thing to say. Don't pressure people into voting on something they don't want to. 14:40, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Pressuring people doesn't help. If you want him banned that much, just vote yes in the poll. 17:21, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Aw man. Looks like he's NOT gonna be banned, and he's just gonna go back to his old ways of edit war and arrogance. He never gets the message! 18:37, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

It's pretty close and some people still haven't voted so there's still a chance he will get banned. 19:11, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

This did turn into a popularity contest ;_;--

I noticed pretty early on that most of the users voting for no ban frequent the chat where ST is apparently pretty popular (or so I've heard since I don't use chat). It's kind of funny that that's the case when people always say that chat doesn't matter. 05:26, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

For sure the three users who are saying "only old examples" didn't read the discussion. What a shame. Their votes should be removed. --Meganoide (talk) 11:40, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Then feel free to repost these recent examples. 12:10, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Oh come on SHB what Roa and Meganoide said is more than obvious. And why should he repost the arguments, they are all written in the text above, if someone wants to read them all he has to do is scroll up.

Vazelos, don't you understand they're kidding us? They act blind and deaf. No example will be valid, for them. Neither yesterday's examples! --Meganoide (talk) 12:34, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

However: So, SHB, are these examples enough "young"? Meganoide (talk) 12:46, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) Here he undid my edit without logic. In each arc we know new characters. There is no need to underline them.
 * 2) Here he adds nothing to the talk, but he only says "you're wrong". I explained my reasons and he ignores them. And, PS, I'm right, as some other user said.
 * 3) Here he says to follow the rule "write more than you can because it's always the best way". Users already decided to focus on what is really important. But he don't cares.

If you are referring to the examples JSD recently gave, all I see is petty arguments/flamewars that half the people on this wiki are guilty of. As for the Greg thing, if that's your reason for banning him then you can start a ban forum for me too because I was just as bad. Well then I guess we are blind and deaf then. Didn't know having a difference of opinion meant we could insult each other, good to know. 12:49, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I've posted MY examples, why do you say I'm talking about JSD's ones? You don't read the others' messages; you're just like SeatError. --Meganoide (talk) 12:51, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Because I wrote the reply before reading your examples and you were talking about the examples above, given most of them were JSD's I was under the opinion you were talking about his examples. Again with the insults....... really? I haven't even said anything hostile and you have already started. Sorry if I'm getting in the way of your personal grudge match you have had with ST which has been around as long as I can remember. And from what I've heard you're just as bad if not worse than ST so I'm not even going to waste my time, I'm blind and deaf remember. 13:04, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I voted for the ban because reading some of the posted examples as well remembering this forum I don't think ST really changed, he still has that incredibly annoying "no, you're wrong, nuff said" behaviour which makes a discussion impossible not matter how much arguments or example you bring on the table. I don't actually think these things are banworthy themselves, but since it's the same old reason why this forum was revamped three times (four with this one), then it's another story. I think he should be banned not for his past events, but because his past events. We can let it go three times and give him three chance, but actaully four? I remember that we gave an user "three warning strikes" before opening a ban forum, well he has four ban forums already... that says a lot.

It's really hard to ask for people to vote against someone they like, even if it's in chat. It can take 15 ban polls but he will never get banned. Not like that..

Ah. So, if I understood, you're saying we're stupid to ask a ban, and we'll ever lose? Probably you're right. We're stupid hoping for justice, and we'll lose even in this fourth poll. Be proud for defending your friend, who attacks everybody without reason. --Meganoide (talk) 13:29, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Personally yeah, of course I am gonna defend ST, we've been here since 2010. I won't support his ban. For you (and whoever didn't join the chat and get to know the people pretty good) ST is just another asshole in the internet.

This forum is been on forever, seriously. Not gonna happen. He just disagrees with everything. Just go against him and prove that you're right. Make other people support you in the argument and it's fine. And still ,all arguments nowadays become polls, so either way more people gonna blend in.

But if you know he's an asshole (your words) why do you defend him? Only because in chat he's nice? If you like him as a friend use facebook. If you don't like him as an editor vote fo his ban. --Meganoide (talk) 14:10, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

How is that my words? Read that again.

You see this seriously so you want him out. I get that. Me I don't really care anymore. I know ST and I don't want him banned(like everyone who votes no on all four ban polls). If I stayed in the forums/talk pages like you and try to make a difference in the details then maybe I would want him gone, yes. Not blaming you.

I'm sorry but that doesn't sounds really good, because apparently you are opposing the ban not because you think he shouldn't be banned, but because you don't want him to be banned cause he's your buddy. I have to think that you also ban people because you don't like them, then. That's not a serious behaviour at all. And OMG people stop bring in the chat in every post.

The examples you gave are really quite ridiculous, Meganoide. The first one is actually valid information and is just a note about the appearance of new characters. The last two are the worst because apparently other people are allowed to disagree with toy but I'm not. That's an incredibly arrogant and biased attitude. Plus your edit here http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:DancePowderer?diff=1128584&oldid=1128233 is actually against the voting rules. You are not allowed to tell people what to vote for. One_Piece_Encyclopedia:Guidebook/Talk_Pages_and_Forums SeaTerror (talk) 15:58, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * Like Levi said,not banning people just because they're ur friends and banning them just coz you dont like them is stupid.
 * Also Mega's being incredibly biased and pressurizing people to vote for ST's ban,you should stop that.--

Just want to clarify that there's nothing wrong with asking people to change their votes, so Meganoide's post on DP's wall is fine. From the section ST linked: "They are still allowed to try and convince other users to change their vote, but only through legitimate argument, not in a way that violates the rules above, and not in order to change the opinions of those who have not yet voted."

Also, LPK, your reasons for voting against the ban aren't very sound, and really are hurting the wikia. We active editors want him banned so that editing on this wiki will become an easier and a less disrupted process. You're essentially telling us "nope, you can't have that, because I'm going to be stubborn about this even though I don't edit anymore" Can't you have some consideration for those who still try to edit and improve the wiki? However, I do commend you for actually having the balls to admit the true reasons behind your vote instead of remaining silent or hiding behind false logic. 16:22, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

JSD, maybe for the future it is needed to change the rules for voting. Something like "only users who love this wiki can vote". Half of the no-ban group would not be allowed.

Roa, I actually asked only to have an explanation about his decision. When I said "I'd like you to change idea" was because it was stupid to pretend that my question was "neutral". --Meganoide (talk) 16:27, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

You're next Mega, and your forum will be short and sweet. 16:30, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Me, the next one? It smells of menace. And why? Cause I'm defending my ideas? Congrats. --Meganoide (talk) 16:33, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Because you are breaking rules and being a total moron, but it's okay you will be banned soon anyway. :)  16:36, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Lol, so why exactly wasn't THIS ban short and sweet for four times in a row given the amount of things ST did? This is ridiculous. Sff9 is totally right: this is a popularity contest, what's the point of it then?

Actually Just he is telling people what to vote for which was the same exact reason you banned both Galaxy and DP from voting on this poll. Category_talk:Unreleased_Content/Archive_1 SeaTerror (talk) 16:41, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I'm ASKING for a motivation. Do you know the difference? --Meganoide (talk) 16:44, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

All the users who are obsessed with banning SeaTerror AND have over 10,000 edits, you really need to find a hobby or pursue a career in politics or journalism. Roranoa Drake II (talk) 16:46, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Roa II, you aren't helping this forum in the slightest with you bad attempt at jokes.

I'll be the one who tells people the reasons for my own posts, thank you very much, ST. The cases are different. DP and Gal got people who had not voted on the issue to vote for a specific option. Meganoide is asking DP, who has already voted and posted his opinion to change his vote. Read the rules carefully, and you'll see there's nothing wrong with Mega's post by the rules. Though I will admit that he is being a bit overzealous about the issue. 16:48, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Since apparently a forum about Meganoide will be opened soon, can you all discuss the case there? This page is already long enough in my opinion.

Part 10
@JSD I don't have anything against you, but your biased opinions ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktvm7GM1qdU. Roranoa Drake II (talk) 16:54, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

The funny thing is that half of the list of users voted for his ban. This means that SeaTerror makes problems. I don't think we're dreaming where we see the problems he creates. On the other hand, the no-ban group clearly admit they voted in that way because he's a buddy. One of the two groups is "normal", the other is illogic. Decide for yourself, if you want to understand who is the first group and who's the second. I only see that a logic vote and an illogic one are treated as the same thing. --Meganoide (talk) 16:57, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm not voting because ST is my "buddy", I'm voting because the 4th poll is utter nonsense. If there was more solid reason, friend or enemy I'd vote for banning ST if the reason was justified. But there are not good reasons here, I've said it before and I stand by my statement; this is not a justified poll. One-Winged Hawk (talk) 19:09, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * Also, take note of the number of times ST has been put up for ban, many of which were issues we resolved without the need to ban him and that there are *some* on this wiki who have it out for him. They'll keep putting his name up for banment until he is banned, even if its like this 4th particular poll, with no good reason at all. I'm not saying he is the best behaved, but worst editors have been here on the wikia and without facing ban. The idea is ban is saved for the last resort, otherwise you go to forums and you resolve issues correctly, via discussion. This is where people don't do things correctly, and instead of jump to get rid of ST because he doesn't behave with their ideal editor situation.


 * Also, may I point out attacking a side for one reason or another is an old trick Meg. We're voting for ST being kept, therefore because we're against your idea of banning him, we're "the bad guys". I'm not impressed with this tactic and suggest you frame from using it. One-Winged Hawk (talk) 19:49, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Relax Mega, if people are going to be illogical, you can't convince them with logic. The poll will decide soon enough. And Roa II either contribute something of value or just don't post. 96.229.219.202

^ Sorry, I was logged out for some reason. 18:30, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * So Meg calls everyone voting for ST being kept bias, your calling us stupid.


 * From start to finish, editors of this wikia are surprising me with their behavior.


 * Leave mud slinging against the other side out of the poll discussion, I may not be a beaucrat or mod, but I can ask for us to be at least civilized and act like mature human beings. Because I don't like seeing newer editors behaving like this. Its disgraceful to the community itself. One-Winged Hawk (talk) 19:56, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Plus it is ridiculous how bias Just is being. I showed an example of Meganoide breaking the rules and he claimed that it was "different" when it isn't at all. It is still breaking the rules but he ignored it just because Meganoide happened to vote for the same option he did. SeaTerror (talk) 20:03, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * Read the rules again, ST. I wrote the part about that, and I know exactly what it means. No bias. Here's the important part, highlighted for convenience. Meganoide's post asks DP to change his vote. Users are allowed to talk to others about changing their vote. In the example you're thinking of DP and Gal took advantage of people who had not voted yet. Do you see the difference? No bias. I'm not arguing about the forum here, only informing everyone of the rules. No bias. 20:17, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

'''I split the page but my edit was undone. To whom ever it concerns, may I request a sensible split between sections, this is getting hard to read and even harder to edit? Pretty please??? :-) ''' One-Winged Hawk (talk) 20:07, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * I will do that, though I'd really appreciate if nobody could edit this until I'm done, as that kind of edit can't easily be fixed in an edit conflict. 20:17, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * Ok, I've done it. Hope the spots make sense to everyone and flow nicely. 20:26, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Too many headers. If it has to be split like that then split it into 2-3 equal parts. Also I fixed the length issue. Though this forum is still incredibly laggy. I don't know why. Maybe it's the forum header template? SeaTerror (talk) 20:36, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think the first, second and third polls by now should be their own topics, otr at least split poll4 from those 3 and link back to them in the 4th polls' topic. This polls length is a essay alone. :-/ One-Winged Hawk (talk) 21:01, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Actually I just realized what the issue is. It's the poll template. It causes immense lag. I noticed this since I just tested on the archive and source mode immediately loaded on it but it didn't here. Also I forgot to mention that I wasn't sure if I should have created an archive for each one or just the single archive. I went with the single archive for now. SeaTerror (talk) 20:39, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Does anyone else think it's funny that the discussion has gotten so long that we have to organize it even though the poll has been open for almost a week? 20:42, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * Most of this isn't that useful in discussing the ban, its mostly in-house bickering and everyone trying to get one over the other side. Which is sad. I've had to speak up at this point because I think its getting out of hand. One-Winged Hawk (talk) 20:59, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Why don't we put all discussion on hold until the poll is over. This doesn't seem very productive in changing the poll results and arguing without any result is just a waste of time. 21:03, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm worried about the behaviour, this is not the most civiised discussion I've seen in years, and a lot of it is just uncivilized and at points, borderlining rude remarks thrown at someone else. At this point unless someone has something new against ST there isn't anything to discuss. Its best to cap a run away argument to let editors cool off for a few days I think. When people are mad or trying to make something personnel, they don't necessary keep a clear head and forget themselves. :-/ One-Winged Hawk (talk) 21:08, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * Also what little is being kept on-topic is now repeating itself over and over again with nothing new added. There is also the issue of the "evidence" against ST being worth anything, which hasn't been resolved either. Some of it is dated issues that were resolved, which means filtering out whats "useful" and whats "not useful" at this point is confusing, and can leave bad impressions on ST's character, which though may be justified, in this case not due to their resolved nature.


 * How many times should ST be punished on something? Who knows, but this is another issue that those against ST are presenting without resolution. I wish for some of these issues to be resolved - with a civilized manner. :-/ One-Winged Hawk (talk) 21:12, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I just split the forum up where I thought the topics shifted around a bit. If anyone wants to consolidate some of those sections, I don't really care. I just didn't care about having them all the same length just because I didn't want the same topic in different sections. And if anything it causing lag, it's not the poll template, but rather all the signatures that have been put on this forum.

And discussion is still important. Especially since the poll is so close right now. 21:17, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

@One-Winged Hawk: "Some of it is dated issues that were resolved" - no it isn't. You are missing an important point: if the issues were resolved he would have been already banned, something that didn't ever happened. As I said before, I think he should be banned not for his past events, but because his past events. His past events aren't an evidence for this ban, but we gave him other chances and he didn't really changed editing behaviour. Think like this: if a referee gives you a yellow card, you are not expelled, but you commit two yellow-card faults, then you are. None of them are worth a red card by themselves, only together. Well, as I see it, ST has already three yellow cards and this is the fourth one. None of them were worth a ban by themselves, but this is the classic "the straw that broke the camel's back" (is that how do you say it?). (about the splitting issue, i don't believe the "part #" sections are needed at all, you splitted the page, that's enough.)

I already provided evidence that I changed. Especially after my staff ban. Most of what was posted was incredibly old or things I don't even do anymore. Some of it was even evidence of a one off edit. SeaTerror (talk) 21:46, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more with what Levi's said. Also, where is the "proof" that you've changed? I don't remember seeing any proof. As far as I can tell, this is something you just started saying halfway through the forum after a mountain of evidence showing the contrary was presented. If you've proved it, then please, prove it again in detail, because even though I've read this entire forum several times, the one thing I did not see was a proof. And are you willing to admit that you are wrong about the issue with Meganoide's post on DP's talk? You didn't respond to my last edit about that (the one where I showed an image of the rules). 22:18, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

"It is actually true that I have changed since I got in a lot less arguments, edit wars, and even swear a lot less. I have also flat out stated that I deserved the staff ban for what I said and did." Check my edits before the staff ban and check my edits after the staff ban. You can see the difference. Also old evidence is once again being posted on this forum in the section Angel created. Plus that example of "edit warring" is a flat out lie. A one time edit does not = an edit war. SeaTerror (talk) 23:06, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

You have so many edit's it would take forever to search through them for examples of change. You have to provide the evidence yourself. 23:33, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Evidence gathering
I'm resurrecting this, we used this in the distant past as a method of sorting issues.

For those who don't know how this works, those who feel there is a strong evidence against ST write in "For". Anyone, including ST, who wishes to counter those evidence, write in "against". This is not part of the discussion, but just a bullet point of whats been said to summerise everything. It would be helpful if people filled this in.

Remember, the discussion is u ^, not down here >, your making a list, not discussing it. One-Winged Hawk (talk) 21:16, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

For:
 * 1) Long history of arguing with other users and edit warring.
 * 2) Frequently rude to other users.
 * 3) Holds grudges against users (ie. bringing up NinjaSheik here despite her not editing here anymore and requesting that he stop using her as an example).
 * 4) Continuing his incredibly annoying "no, you're wrong, nuff said" behaviour making a discussion impossible and delaying important changes.
 * 5) Mistrustful of other users, often reverting their edits without properly reviewing their content. Also accuses admins of power abuse.
 * 6) (moved to point 4 since duplicate)
 * 7) Frequently edit warring without giving reasons.
 * 8) Once edit warring against two admins with no explanation.
 * 9) Ignoring the then-recently created Image War rule. Many times.
 * 10) In the forum about history section lengths (third point) we decided to limit ourselves to the minimum. Here he goes against that decision.

Argument against/counter evidence:
 * 1) Arguement on point 1 was resolved in 2012. The name was resolved elsewhere. This is only relivent if the issue becomes an problem after the name is decided on.
 * 2) Point 2 + 6 + 10; Admins/Beaucrats should handle this, with warnings. If the behaviour gets bad, a band discussion is not really worth doing - because the admins/beacruats can handle this.
 * 3) Point 3; there is no rule against someone having a grudge - unless the person acts out their grudge.
 * 4) Point 4 + 6 (again); The length of a discussion is not a reason for banning. Again, Admins/Beaucrats should be alerted to step in and resolve the issue if it gets out of hand, or if needed voting to end any discussions, theres several ways to resolve this.etc.
 * 5) Point 7; one of those incidents is a one edit undo, it is not a edit war if there is only one set of edits involved.

Evidence discussion
Good idea, Angel. It will definitely decrease the amount of arguing going on. 21:39, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Added a few counters, the first handful of points were not things you should hold a poll for banment over. The rest carry more weight against ST. One-Winged Hawk (talk) 23:05, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I overwrote point 4 with point 6 since they were using the same example and to answer the counter argument of those: it's not about the length, you can argue all day if you have something to argue, but the keyword is arguing. Even though we provide plenty of arguments and examples he never answer them. He just reply with a sentence-long deny not addressing any of the arguments used before. For example, in that forum he stated repeatedly that those informations were "relevant" while never explaining why we should consider them so. Just compare his replies with the other arguments.


 * Also are you implying that if admins do not solve an issue created by an user, then that issue it's not the user fault? Should we ban the admins then?


 * No, there is more you can do but this isn't the topic to discuss those points in particular. I'll leave a note on your talk page :-/ One-Winged Hawk (talk) 23:34, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

None of the individual points here are really ban-worthy, but a user who is guilty of all of them should be banned. It's like what Levi said before about the straw breaking the camel's back; enough is enough. 23:32, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Did you even see what forum you linked for the last point. That was BEFORE my staff ban, not after. I never even brought up that issue again. Hell, I even got trolled for used Arabasta in blog comments when all I was talking about was the place and had nothing to do with the name. SeaTerror (talk) 23:33, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I removed these points because the first point is older then the last ban poll and the second point is too vague, please provide links.


 * The edit wars are the thing most ban worthy over, I myself would call anything within the last 6 months-year solid. Anything after that period is too old to be counted and should have been resolved by now or isn't impacting the current wikia workings enough to matter. One-Winged Hawk (talk) 23:50, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * Even still, there isn't enough incdents within the last year... We need more then we got to say there is a hge issue with ST and edit warring. this is 3 incidents or so in a year, one is not a edit war at all since one undo isnt' a edit war. If the opposition would supply more,t hey'd help their cause, but alone... Even I've seen other editors enter more edit in the last year then ST's lot mentioned here. So the other side needs to fluff that point out to prove a point. :-/ One-Winged Hawk (talk) 23:53, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * The problem is the pattern of behavior. If it was just 3 edit wars in the past year that we were considering, I'd vote against the ban but he has a long pattern of rudeness, edit-warring and being difficult to deal with. It's the same with his "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude; one or two instances of that aren't ban-worthy but he has been that way as long as I've been editing here (and maybe longer). 00:18, February 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, but a fleshing out of the point a bit more wouldn't hurt is all I'm saying. Not trying to put the evidence down, I just think its the best wedge the other side has, but they need more. Especially as, don't forget, in between this is dozens of "good" edits and behaviour don't forget. The wikia survived in its early days on editors like ST,being a pain and makng us created rules, so if your going to go for it, you don't hold back anything if you want. Otherwise, the other side ca go so far as to add a years worth of "good" edits to prove a point also, this no one has done either, I've only started off the other side so its not blank, this is a job for others like ST himself.


 * So yeah, the more solid it is, the strong the point it. Don't just link to a few - link to them all . :-/ One-Winged Hawk (talk) 00:25, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Ban Length Discussion
Ok, I have a problem with the length options. I don't think the very short options like 1 or 2 weeks should be on there. First of all, his global ban, although given by staff, was definitely for actions on this wikia. So I would say that this is not his "first ban" here. That was for 3 months, and I think that should be the shortest option on here (and probably what I'm going to vote for). Also, I think that given the literal mountain of evidence cited here doesn't deserve anything less than a 1 or 2 month ban. And because of the 3 month staff ban, and how many times this forum has been opened over the years, I also think permanent should be an option (though I won't be voting for it). So as long as several users agree with me on those points, I think we should alter the the poll. I don't know if we should pause/re-start that section of poll after we resolve this though.

Also, I'd like to urge those who voted against the ban not to just vote for the shortest option by default. The majority of editors here wanted him banned, and no matter how close the poll was, it's still the majority. The fact that over 36 people voted on it shows how important people thought this was. Being truly unbiased is about accepting defeat, and accepting the reasons behind the winning option as things that deserve punishment.

TL;DR: 3 months should be the shortest option, Perma-ban should be on the table, don't be petty and vote for the shortest option b/c you're against the ban. 09:47, February 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * Its wrong to take polls that did not lead to a ban into account in how long he should be banned for.


 * http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Log/block?page=User%3ASeaTerror


 * This is what you need. As you can see, he has only been banned for 1 week. The length is based on the number of times he has been banned previously, and has been sorted. Why treat ST any different to anyone else getting banned? He isn't a special case, unless you truly have it out for him. One-Winged Hawk (talk) 11:57, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

For sure you know this, but it's better to remember you one thing. This is not a poll about "how much time SeaTerror needs to learn to change his behaviour", but "how much time we want to work on this wiki before all things start again as they were before his ban". Because he won't change, you know. --Meganoide (talk) 12:40, February 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * It doesn't matter if he doesn't change - we go back to vote an the length gets longer each time. Eventually it gets to the point he leaves through being fed up, or is perma banned. No offence Meg, but now I'm back on the wikia, I'm going to act how I used to act, and if I speak up for something, it means I'm making a point about it. The point is we have rules, let the rules handle ST now, if you don't, this results in someone else abusing the rules later on to their own whim. Keeping to the rules, no matter what, keeps it fair and lets everyone know their rights and where they stand. I like to stand by the rules, because it took a lot to make them in the first place, if you don't like them you should be going to those topics and voting for change.


 * He has never been banned before therefore, Yatan has dished out the correct punishment of week. One-Winged Hawk (talk) 12:49, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Meganoide, cleary you hate his guts. Can't explain it. You act like he is dragging the wiki down. You say we will be perfect for a week, and then when he comes back he is going to do the same damn things. Then you're just saying there will eventually be a 5th ban poll. Cause you can't stop him with another way!!

If I'm supporting ST, you do the exact opposite, man. Come on.

No, I'm simply exposing facts. Meganoide (talk) 13:28, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, Angel, but this is just another case where the rules have changed over time. Yata did not ban ST for a week because that is how long his ban should be, but because we now have a rule that if a ban forum says a user is to be banned, they are banned for 1 week while we use another poll to determine how long he should be banned. If you read Yata's edit summary, you'll see that's why he's been banned for a week. Sorry, but you're just wrong about the rules here. 15:31, February 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * I think this is a disappointing turn out then, because it allows for some run away potential politics to happen, especially if too many folks hate someone else. It also means someone who does mroe the ST has done can get a lighter punishment. I'd query this and raise the point, but I think it would get no where. I really don't like the idea that there is so much fluidity in the ban length time. =_= One-Winged Hawk (talk) 19:36, February 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * @JSD: I disagree, each length should be present since the poll is about choosing it, hence you have to give people a choice. The exception is if there are some sort of rules that I'm not aware about.
 * @One-Winged Hawk: I think I remember something like that, but I don't find it ... but it also make sense, if I go nuts and start blanking all the page on the week, I don't think you would ban me just for a wiki only because it's my first time. Of course that's not the case here, it's fine if you think one week is enough.
 * It wouldn't be fair in this forum, but for future cases I think we should set a rule about who is allowed to vote in the ban length poll: I don't think people who voted against the ban should be allowed to vote there since there are good reasons to think they will just disrupt the outcome by voting the lesser length option. (However this should be discussed in another forum).


 * I disagree, even when it comes down to it, the "for ban" side won by just 2 votes, which isn't a large majority. If not for 2 last mintue voters, it could have gone either way. You would say that 17 people, which was almost half the voters, now can't express a right to vote in the poll. If they didn't want him banned, they didn't think he was as big of a problem, therefore they'll vote for a smaller ban length because of that same reason. Whereas the guys who want him ban are more likely to vote for longer banment, even if its more then is deserved, because they don't like him. The situation works both ways, you can be bias and vote low or be bias and vote high. :-/ One-Winged Hawk (talk) 19:43, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Totally agreed with Levi's 3rd point,but sadly i dont think such a rule will make it through.--

I'm not talking about this forum, this has to be discussed in another one. If you agree with me can you open it? (even later)

There should also be a rule about inactive users voting since I noticed one user who voted here hadn't edited at all since September. 19:47, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Thats a whole new discussion videogame.-- 20:57, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

I know, I just brought it up since Levi was talking about a new poll rule. 21:18, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

If you guys want to debate on possible new poll rules, there is a discussion on this forum about possible new poll rules ongoing. 21:42, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Not sure exactly why I'm doing this and it's probably way too late now but here it goes. As I just explained to JSD on chat I can understand how annoying and frustrating ST can be for some people but I didn't personally edit war with him (probably because I never edit) and I think that's what makes all the difference, because from a 3rd person point of view it really doesn't look ban worthy. Basically what I'm saying is don't assume some people were only voting against his ban because they are his friend, and as JSD said to me before you think ST and DP are friends lol. Anyway I just thought I would explain why. Cheers 01:32, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

The most biased thing I've ever witnessed in my life Roranoa Drake II (talk) 23:34, February 22, 2014 (UTC)

If you are going to post in a forum, at least contribute something useful. All of your posts here have been pointless and you clearly don't know anything about the issues being discussed so either contribute or just don't post. 07:04, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

And you've been a biased wanker this whole time, go figure. 07:47, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

Obviously 1 week is too short of a punishment and 3 months is too long, why don't we all compromise and vote for 1 month. 96.255.147.56 18:38, February 23, 2014 (UTC)

The Fifth Discussion
The fact that this ban forum is going to be reopened for the fifth time, says alot.

Alright, here we go again. ST has made improvements since his last ban, using the edit summary more often. Though sometimes, he ends up going back to his usual self of not trying to communicate with others and undoing without giving a single explanation, multiple times. Let's look at some cases first, shall we.


 * This is the second edit he made that is doing undoing something DragonEmperor added on the exact same page. Sure, DP added it back without explanation either, but that doesn't justify it.


 * Here, we see ST undoing a perfectly fine edit that was reverted by Kaido in the end. The IP literally went to his talk page to ask why he undid his edit, no response was given.


 * ST was in the right here, but even though the guy came to ask him why it was wrong, he was ignored.


 * This (imo) perfectly fine trivia was removed with no explanation given whatsoever.

This is all what I knew of/could trace back the last couple of weeks, though I haven't done a thorough search. Surely there are cases in the more previous weeks.

ST is a valuable editor, but his attitude will not completely change, as shown. He has been banned for this at least five times for these actions, and they still will not stop from happening. I already gave ST a final warning in February telling him that the next time, I would reopen his ban forum. I encourage ST to defend himself and want to remind everyone that according to the ladder, the next step is a six months ban. Feel free to add your own evidences in the discussion below.

Keep in mind, it's not that he has done something terribly wrong, it's that he done minor violations for the so-manieth time. 12:15, June 26, 2016 (UTC)

Discussion
Sounds good. It's hardly the first time we've warned him on this, and his attitude isn't going to change.

12:47, June 26, 2016 (UTC)

This is a yearly occurence at this point. ST does ST things -> ST gets banned -> ST behaves himself for a bit -> ST starts doing ST things again -> ST gets banned again.

Another ban isn't going to change this. Banning him at this point doesn't rly do anything except get him out of our site for however long he's banned. 13:13, June 26, 2016 (UTC)

The rule isn't about having an message in every revert of something. It's about if an edit war starts. So one revert and then leave a summary. Also I just don't respond to messages on my talk page. Maybe 2% of them I have ever responded to. That's just the way I do it in general. The other edit I assumed it was vandalism since that's just not how references work and I assumed a name like that was vandalism. The trivia edit wasn't fine since it was completely stretching. If you want summaries for all edits now then we can just change the rules and leave it at that. SeaTerror (talk) 04:06, June 27, 2016 (UTC)

I'd recommend responding more if people are asking questions about editing, but I don't see anything ban-worthy. I'm pretty sure we've all undone edits without leaving a summary before at some point. As long as it doesn't start edit warring, I don't see a huge issue there. 04:18, June 27, 2016 (UTC)


 * The issue is that ST does start edit wars - often by simply undoing an edit without giving any reason or bothering to reply to his talk page. Either we do literally nothing or we permaban. There's no middle ground on this.


 * 15:46, June 27, 2016 (UTC)


 * This still isn't anywhere near as bad as what got him banned before. This should probably be a warning instead of a straight up ban unless he continues. 00:56, June 28, 2016 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what to think about this one. Multiple people are guilty of doing what he's done, myself included, and he has admittedly gotten better. But the problem is that this behavior has persisted after 6 years here. Will this ban forum be able to fix anything? Will it be better than the multiple immediate bans he got in 2015, and can still get now for continuing bad behavior? I'm afraid I don't really have an answer for that now.

But I would like to say something about ST's post in this forum. He said "Also I just don't respond to messages on my talk page. Maybe 2% of them I have ever responded to. That's just the way I do it in general." That is absolutely unacceptable. How are new users supposed to know why their edit was wrong if you don't ever respond? The lack of communication will just cause newbies to give up on editing, and that is detrimental to the wiki's growth. Now, with the Tyrannosaurus reversion, you said about that, "The other edit I assumed it was vandalism since that's just not how references work and I assumed a name like that was vandalism." Don't assume and actually do a little research. Newbies aren't really that good at references so the fact that they did it wrong doesn't mean they're vandalizing. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 01:48, June 28, 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you are talking about new users then since I do the same to veterans too. It's just laziness or I forget. I can try responding more often. SeaTerror (talk) 08:56, June 28, 2016 (UTC)

First off, I would like to remind the community of this forum from a year and a half ago http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Purpose_of_Ban_Forums In it we decided that if the user is technically not breaking the rules, but the user in question's behavior is detrimental to the well being and growth of the wiki then a ban forum would be put in place. However, if the user in question is clearly violating this wiki's guidelines, then that user is subject to discipline subject to the admin's discretion. Personally I don't think SeaTerror deserves a 6 month ban over something so minuscule (he's a valuable editor and has been with us for 6 years), but maybe a small slap in the wrist is in order (2 to 3 days, maybe even a week block). That way the awc who reported this to AoD in the first place can get some closure and SeaTerror can have another reminder to always write summaries for undoing edits and replying to user talk pages Roranoa Drake II (talk) 16:39, June 30, 2016 (UTC)

As someone that's banned ST more times than I want to remember, I don't think banning him is the best option right now. Personally, I know a short ban will do nothing, and I don't think a permaban should be on the table right now.

However, I do still think this is a serious issue. I totally agree with Kaido that being unresponsive to posts on his talk page is simply unacceptable. It doesn't matter if it's for veterans or new users. And I know ST knows unresponsiveness is against our policies, because he has cited it as a reason to ban Klobis while re-opening Klobis' forum. That's not him agreeing to something someone else posted, but ST opening Klobis' forum for the same issue we're discussing here. ST, why should we hold Klobis to a higher standard than you?

ST's unresponsiveness and lack of communication are a serious problem for both new and veteran editors. It starts edit wars with veterans (though not many recently). And with new editors, he pushes them away. If anyone has the time to check ST's talk page and archive, I'm sure you'd find a vast number of posts by new editors looking to know why he reverted their edit. And I'm sure if you looked at the talk pages of those users, you would find no response from ST. Then if you checked their contributions, you would find that they stopped editing after ST never responded. Just like the guy AOD linked in the beginning of this part of the forum. It's a bit of a jump, but I can all but guarantee that ST's unresponsiveness has cost us at least a handful of potential active editors.

Here's what I think needs to happen: ST needs to improve his behavior or stop being an active content-based editor. If ST can stick to blogs, discussions, and chat then he can't continue to cause problems for us because of editing. The only other option is a permanent ban after he doesn't change his behavior, which is extreme. 18:20, June 30, 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree with JSD. I don't see a point in a "slap on the wrist" ban and he hasn't done anything that would warrant a permaban. If he improves his behavior then we can just leave it at that. 18:36, June 30, 2016 (UTC)

I don't see anything about having to respond to people on the guidebook. If it's an actual policy then we need to add it. SeaTerror (talk) 23:57, June 30, 2016 (UTC)

It's been de facto policy for years, and you know it. You knew it when you wanted Klobis banned for the same thing, and you didn't say anything about having to add it to the rules then. I'm gonna go to the admin's talk pages with a write up of the rule, but since we've been pretty much following it for years, I don't think it not being written down is an issue here.

ST, please address the concerns of the community so that we can move forward or close this. 15:15, July 13, 2016 (UTC)

It hasn't been a policy because if it has then many people other than myself would have broken that. I'm not the only one who has not responded to talk page messages. I'm sure you have done it yourself. Plus you're linking something from three years ago when it definitely wasn't a rule then. Plus the whole Klobis thing was edit wars and not responding about them which definitely is against policy. Also I have already addressed the concerns and have even responded to every talk page message that was left on my talk page after this forum was opened. SeaTerror (talk) 16:44, July 13, 2016 (UTC)

So are we going to round this up or not?

12:20, July 25, 2016 (UTC)

Points have been proven, the people have spoken. The concerns regarding ignoring talk page messages have been brought upon ST. But for now, let's close this. 12:24, July 25, 2016 (UTC)