Forum:Images on the wiki

OK I think we need a global discussion on the way images shall be used on the wiki ones and for all at least just to release my frustration. I will not hide my point any longer since I think it is perfectly known by those who care about this wiki. I feel like the manga has not the place it deserve on the wiki. I mean every sunday all the good images drawn by Oda are systematically replaced by anime pictures which are not always as good. Not only are they not always good but we get rid of the essence of what a manga is. A manga is a japanese black and white comic book, it is also the original material. The black and white, the bubble, the katakana sound effect are completely lost with the anime image. So by removing the manga images we are losing a lot : on an information point of view since we get rid of half of what One Piece is, very often on a quality point of view, and, at least to me, on an emotionnal point of view, since the manga comes before the anime. Just take an example from yesterday :

Is there really someone who thinks that the anime picture is better ?

So I initially tried to get the manga back through the infobox and it was appreciated by the community until there was a veto. All the problems raised during the discussion are specific to the infoboxes and do not apply for plot pictures. The only question is the number of images in question which is not a minor issue. The guidelines were written a long time ago when not that many pictures were uploaded, so we need to start a new discussion.

This topic is made so as to answered a few questions : Kdom 06:30, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Am I the only one frustrated here ?
 * If not, how do we handle it ?

On another subject there is this glitch issue, I have received again an answer from the wikia staff saying that they are trying to solve it. Until they correct it I think it is best to not try reupload the images to much.

Discussion
I enjoy the anime pictures more than the manga pictures. Though I admit you have made a very valid argument and I give you credit on how well written it is. I just find that the colors are both refreshing and easier on the eyes. I feel that the bubbles actually take away from the picture, by taking away space. And these images are approved by the author. -Lotus2490 September 5, 2010

As great as Oda's art is, the point in some parts of the wikia does not focus on the art. Character articles for example are supposed to focus on characters. They're supposed to show the best depiction of a character. A black and white pic of a character maybe Oda's own work but it may not be the best depiction of what he has in mind for the character. I mean he obviously has some say in the color of some characters when they are presented in the anime. Why do you think Marco and Thatch have such drastic color changes?

As for the scene presented, there are some obvious art differences presented but that's not point of the image. The point is whether the scene is represented well. It maybe an example of how sloppy the anime could get but it doesn't mean everything the anime does is crap.Mugiwara Franky 07:10, September 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * When a character is drawn poorly on the anime version it is not the best depiction of a character. If Oda wanted to draw in color he could have made an anime directly, there must be a reason why he choose this medium. I don't know why the black and white is so despised, a lots of comics masterpieces are in black and white (cf my avatar). To me, color is like suggar, it's easy to like it, but by growing up, you start to appreciate the other tastes more.
 * But that's not the point of this discussion, which is : are we still continuing to suppress all the manga images from this wiki when it is a wiki about a manga ? Kdom 19:33, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * PS : also MF is it possible to put this discussion on the Community Corner please


 * Note; the wikia isn't about a manga - its about all things one piece, manga and anime equally. However manga storyline will ALWAYS take president over anime storyline, that is the exception to the rule. However, I also point out here too that we have all sorts of readers visiting the wikia, some will only know the manga, other the anime, the others both. Some many even come here for the games or figures infomation. Therefore our priorty is to cover everything One Piece. 94.168.119.106 20:27, September 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Also... The fact we do take the manga storyline as president means we embrace it and reject the anime storyline (its easier to deal with anyway since theres few conflicting storylines). So we're not really supressing the manga at all, its the core of all the information here, with exceptions of "anime only" stuff, games and figurines, etc things like that. And the majority of the pages on here will have everything written to the manga. In the end, images is back to personnel perfereneces problems again, when we first opened shop there was VERY few images up in history sections aside from the odd one or two. They've grown over time as different editors want them there. 94.168.119.106 20:31, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

What ruins that manga image is the huge sound effects and the speech bubbles. As nice as the artwork is, its not clean and while you argue about Oda's work... Have you actually ever bothered comparing a RAW with a scanalation? If you want the orginal, you'll be asking for raw, not scanalation. I hate to say it... But there are differences between a scanners results and the orginal that makes your argument weaker and you wouldn't notice unless you look. And I'm not talking translations here. ¬_¬' 94.168.119.106 19:45, September 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Also as I've said before, as part of a blunder on my part, the word "anime" isn't on the image guidelines where it needs to be and the consqueneces are it really results in the perference for one or the other optional to situation. However I will note the use of anime is more "universal" reasons then anything. half manga and half anime looks ugly to be quite frank if you really want to go down that path, but as I prefer I note that you can argue "quality" all you like. Quality doesn't ness. mean file or image shaprness it means many layers including how useful it is to the wikia. Standardisation is often better all round then anything for "quality" as well of the overall wikia as it keeps the reader from getting visionally confused.


 * The question of image sharpness is overall just one of several factors. Sometimes, we can even reject the anime counterpart of the manga image for another for those same reasons. Example, I would not resort to use your example the Kdom, I'd have found another frame of image to display. The manga unfortantely has its faults and though it is a direct representation of Oda's work, it doesn't always mean its all that useful to us. Is an image taken up by 50% speech bubble that useful when the anime has nothing to clutter it? Also, as I said before old scans are often poor quality due to the change in technology and hands of scanning groups so it is not advisable to fully spend time turning everything manga.


 * Also consider this, we really don't need images at all, their just there as demos. Also consider as well, that one frame of the anime isn't as big of a issue on copyright as one frame of about 50 in total of a singal chapter. Because there are thousands of frames per episode and not with manga. That why I don'/t like whole pages uploaded myself. Thats a small chunk of the manga uploaded and it puts us on the level of scanalation groups. Since we draw the lines with short one move animations, we're never likely to get as bad as subbers at least. 94.168.119.106 20:04, September 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry about spelling errors... I'm really struggling with this computer and my current one might not be returning ever to me... T_T 94.168.119.106 20:07, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

I completely sympathize with what you're saying, Kdom. I really, really do. But I think more often than not, the anime does look pretty brilliant overall, with a couple exceptions here and there. (In which case, I'm starting to believe, we just shouldn't use that image at all, but that's another story). The anime gives us the full color of characters/settings without any distracting speech bubbles/sound effects. It's ccmpletely visual, which I think the majority of people appreciate, and it's just... appealing. Especially, as this is an English wiki, things should be as translatable as possible-- so, images can be understood across the board. I'm not saying that those words/effects make the picture bad on the manga page. The job of a good mangaka (any comicker) is to incorporate all of that so the page looks wonderful all together. And of course, Oda's one of the best. But we've actually got a choice that allows us to pick one that will immediately get the idea across without anything else blocking the way.

And I think, as an encylcopedia, we should be consistent throughout the site. And that means choosing one route, so all the pages are as...hm, compatible, as possible. I know this can't always be done (some things were just never animated), but we should make it so when we can. Those are my two cents.  YazzyDream  20:09, September 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * The sound effect is exactly why I like this picture. That's a fundamental characteristic of manga, how can you say it deserve the image ? Currently the arc page are half anime half manga and nobody says it's ugly. If we have to only use anime, then manga plot pictures should not be uploaded at all. And I don't see how we are encyclopedic in getting rid of half of what one piece is. Kdom 20:45, September 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Very few editors visit the arcs pages to edit them, but the general rule is we start with manga as the placeholder and convert to anime when the time comes. Its pretty much been that way for a long time. And plus, I don't anyone would even have the common thought to complain our pages are ugly anyway... Most come here for information anyway, if they want to read/ watch they go elsewhere for those services as we don't offer them. But an editors point of viiew will be different, as you've proven yourself, to a general reader. 94.168.119.106 20:49, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

The anime image should always be used over the manga images. A color change can be put in the gallery section. SeaTerror 21:06, September 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * "I'm not saying that those words/effects make the picture bad on the manga page. The job of a good mangaka (any comicker) is to incorporate all of that so the page looks wonderful all together. And of course, Oda's one of the best. But we've actually got a choice that allows us to pick one that will immediately get the idea across without anything else blocking the way."


 * In layman's terms: the idea is to get the idea across immediately.
 * We aren't getting "rid of half of what One Piece is." One Piece is about the characters and story. It isn't just about the manga. Whether you like it or not, the anime is part of it too.
 * For the arcs we use the manga image until the scene's animated, as it's always been done.
 * This is obviously never going to satify you. Which is fine, you have you're own ideas, and I have my own. The way this is going to have to be settled is by majority because I know I'm not going to change my mind. And I highly doubt you will either. Other editors/visitors/fans are going to have to put this to some kind of vote, that's the simplest way to settle this. If everyone wants to use the manga images, I'll just drop it. Easy as that.  YazzyDream  21:09, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

Well I don't see what is the problem in keeping a few manga pictures, that we could choose in the end by poll. I don't ask for a lot, but not zero like it is now. When One Piece will be ultimately finished, the only thing that will remain of Oda works will be the cover images. I find it very unfair. Kdom 21:10, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yazzydream, visually we are getting rid of half of One Piece, hence I would never have started that topic and like I said when one piece will be finished...


 * I would beg to differ. Getting rid of half the series would be loosing many of the cores essences. Art is art and we can argue all day on it, but Oda's luffy and storyline is another thing. We cover the manga storyline, thats more important to a page then a image. Goes back to "well we really don't need images at all" if push comes to shove.


 * Personnelly, due to dyslecia, I myself admit I favor anime images because B + W against B + W test gives me a headaches to read. Tharts because I read image, not letters and that B + w next to the text is really distracting. Hehee, however every person has different perfernces and I honesltly am a very minority here on that problem. So its likely I'm the only one here with it. I admit, some of the pretty colours (not images__) on the wikia were added because I found black on orange easier toread then black on white. 94.168.119.106 21:22, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

Can I just ask please, that we delay voting for a few days of any kind? We always start voting and then something crops up throwing the votes in disarray. I'd like discussion before voting this time. 94.168.119.106 21:13, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Kdom, we really are missing good manga images around. I mean, it's nice to have a colored version of a picture of a place, sometimes even a character, but when you try to get a picture of a moment, it's much harder to get a good pic. Because manga only has a few frames, so each frame HAS to be good, because manga can only use the drawing effects to show the emotion of the moment. But anime has tons of frames, uses every kind of graphic and sound effects to make the current scene the better as possible, and so, they don't always draw things like the characters' faces fine (usually in action scenes).

What i'm trying to say is that there are more chances of having a good picture in the manga since each frame has to be drawn perfectly, and doesn't need anything else than a picture to depict the emotion of the moment. Anime uses animation, making everything a lot more active, but not necessarily making each frame a good frame.GMTails 23:16, September 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * While it is true that there are better drawn scenes in the manga, that should not be the reason why anime images should not be used. As for sound effects, they are used in the manga due to lack of sound. In the anime, that sound is usually expressed thus not needed unless somebody decides to put in for art sake.


 * For wanting the manga more for stuff like speech bubbles and sound effects however, that's more of a matter of personal preference. That thinking doesn't always work in trying to show people what needs to be shown.


 * As to Oda's medium, just because his manga is presented mostly in black and white, does not mean that he doesn't think in color. Why does he color his volume covers, if he only thought in black and white? The reason it is mostly black and white is because of prevalent limitations present in Japanese comics, limitations that are not found in western comics.


 * Like Angel is saying also, the wikia is not just about the manga or the anime. It is both. The written content, which is the core of the wikia, supports more towards the manga. You cannot say that we are playing favoritism towards the anime just because we use anime pictures. Pictures are just pictures. They show a point but don't necessarily tell the whole story without paragraphs next to them. The only way they could tell the whole story alone was if they were arranged like the manga or animated like the anime.Mugiwara Franky 05:45, September 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Colour pages are very expensive in Japan while b + w are very cheap, hence why there are so few colour overall. And the fact colour does exist doesn't mean we should restrict ourselves to favoring B + W. as I said earlier in a different topic, most will know Luffy via his red vest and straw hat, not by anything else because thats what Oda put him in for 10 years and has only just started to change it. Take note also some changes will be made after the timeskip since the characters will age 2 years. That means, eventually many infobox images will change, but still doesn't change the fact that many anime/manga fans will know Luffy instantly from the colour version of him then the B + W. 94.168.119.106 06:22, September 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Animation is more or less in the same boat as single frames, the fdifference is we can't owe much space for animation die to size and loading times. Often they have to be shrunk so they take up less memory. Also Oda isn't perfect, everyone makes mistakes. And more over I know when I first joined major on-line One Piece fans, I note one fan had complained that they prefer the anime just because the manga sometimes fails to convey what Oda is trying to do. Thats because B + W is more limited on what it can do, hence we have tones. Though is more clear then some other mangaka because he rejects mid-tones (he finds them little use), but depth is only portrayed through drawing techniques and that is all up to his handling skills. I noted once in the Thriller Bark arc, I believe, someone actually said one of the chapters wasn't up to par with Oda usual standards, though off the top of my head for the life of me can't remember the no.


 * Also since no one has told me what the difference between scanalation and raw are, its because tones. those tones get lost in clean up processes, so often the scanlation groups have to replace them with their own. the orginals are just a series of "." but often the replaced ones are "(.)" depending on the tone. It happens, their not perfect. And also they may have to redraw the entire frame for smooth lines, I know I've compared two frames of one of each before and see alignment problems with the scanlation aginst it raw carbon copy. Of course, this varies between groups and techniques, but it is a point to be made; a scanalation isn't a true representation of Oda's work because something is lost in clean-up. 94.168.119.106 06:22, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

@GMTails, in your exemple the gif was used because a single frame matching the manga couldn't be found not because it was good. Did I already said that I didn't like Gifs... @Mugiwara Franky, there is no sound in the anime picture either, whereas we have it in the manga through the visual effect. Also it's not a matter of preference. When you say that we give the same place to the manga than to the anime it is utterly wrong. By getting rid of every manga visualisation we are getting rid of something of utterly importance. It's not like if One Piece was a book ; it is a comic, hence it is something visual and we don't even put image of it. If someone wants to come here to see what type of design One Piece Manga is like, he can't find it ! That's quite quite crazy, especially when we have other pages like Gigant_Battle on this wiki.

Also the manga pictures are chosen among the best ones of the manga because like Angel said, not all of them are worthy of being displayed. But currently there is not the same thinking with the anime pictures. The replacement has become the game of every sunday : replace the manga images as quick as possible without even thinking if they are good or if they are some other anime scenes that could be better. Kdom 06:25, September 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * The actual epsiode with Blackbeard Vs Ace is amongst one of the poor episodes, but the next decent image was a less match for the infoxbox image. So occusionally, its a matter of "oh well we did our best". But yes, we SHOULD be rejecting images from the anime when they don't meet standards and yet for one reason or another we don't.


 * I note that due to various reasons the worst epsiodes are usually te ones drawn outside of Japan, since the Japanese have studios and colleges and so forth set up for percifically traising anime and manga artists at high qualitity stanards. However outside of Japanese education, the differences can depend. For the sake of One Piece airing in Korea, it is most likely 50%+ of the anime staff is Korean since the anime rule was, at least I know from several years back, the staff must be that much Korean to be aired in their country. unfortantely, you can tell a Korean animators work on times from the Japanese trained... They usually save their best trained animators for more eventful episodes as well, so the typical episode you see in the anime is most likely drawn by the secdondary art animators, not the big masters.


 * So yes, there are bad epsiodes and when their bad the whole episode will be bad because the artist will have worked on the entire epsiode. In those cases, reverting and waiting one more week for another image (we did this during the older arcs - it isn't being done with new chapters) for a better drawn episode might mean we loose one image completely, but we require a bettr one for other pursposes the next week. 94.168.119.106 06:35, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * What you have written, Kdom, is real, and somehow, moving. I was a convinced supporter of the "anime faction", but now I've changed my mind, I realised that I like the manga more, that is the weekly manga chapter I wait with more anxiety, that, among my "anime friends", I am the "manga fan". What you've said is true, Oda's wonderful, eccentric draws don't have enough space on this Wikia.
 * On the other side, many visitors may argue on the possible lack of anime images... And so, maybe is a stupid idea and/or I'm not the first one in this discussion to suggest it, but... Why not to have "double" pictures? Like the ones used for characters infobox? One could then select "Anime" or "Manga" and adorn the page he's looking at with the images he likes most! ;) Aldarinor 07:16, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * On the other side, many visitors may argue on the possible lack of anime images... And so, maybe is a stupid idea and/or I'm not the first one in this discussion to suggest it, but... Why not to have "double" pictures? Like the ones used for characters infobox? One could then select "Anime" or "Manga" and adorn the page he's looking at with the images he likes most! ;) Aldarinor 07:16, September 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Doubling every image is a very bad idea. The reason we're having this discussion also is because the infobox toggle proposal fell. All I'm gonna say though that this anime vs. manga dispute is really uneeded.Mugiwara Franky 07:27, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Anime illustrator can't make good pictures as oda drawn, for example hancock's face, Hancock's face often looks ugly in anime. The picture of luffy and his allies from anime was bad! but effect and movement in anime are very good, it worked by professional director. anime picture can show things happens with more detail. 07:27, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Or make a tab in every articles, like Roronoa Zoro/Manga and Roronoa Zoro/Anime. 07:32, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * No way! Theres so little difference Why seperate them? Aside from the extra filler storyline its EXACTLY the same information passed around. This is an even worst solution then the toggle feature in my opinion because we've got two pages to deal with for the same character with different cicumstances to take into account. 94.168.119.106 18:01, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Or make a tab in every articles, like Roronoa Zoro/Manga and Roronoa Zoro/Anime. 07:32, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * No way! Theres so little difference Why seperate them? Aside from the extra filler storyline its EXACTLY the same information passed around. This is an even worst solution then the toggle feature in my opinion because we've got two pages to deal with for the same character with different cicumstances to take into account. 94.168.119.106 18:01, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

  Anime    Manga    Luffy marineford

14:45, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

All of the arguments against the toggle in the char box pages don't apply for the plot images, also people liked it, the number of positive vote was twice as much as the negative one. The only issue is the number of images which could be easily solved if we limit the number of images per page. Even if we don't use it because it is still to much why don't we keep two or three ? The manga is not represented visually on this wiki compared to the anime. You cannot deny that point except being of the worse bad faith ever. And it's not just a matter of preference, since there is absolutely no reason to favorise anime over manga which are both equally part of the one piece story. So far the only counter argument is the fact that we use scanlation, but I'm not sure people will notice the tone differences on images thumbnails. Also I still think that the replacement of the anime images shall not be as systematic as it is currently since there is absolutely no reflexion whether the image is good or bad. Kdom 19:35, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

"And it's not just a matter of preference, since there is absolutely no reason to favorise anime over manga which are both equally part of the one piece story. " Except for the fact that the anime images are in color and the toggle code would just clutter the articles SeaTerror 20:08, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry for you, but we are not a Wall Disney wiki and manga will always be in black and white. So I can just hope that one day you will be able to fully appreciate something which is not in color and how mangaka are doing awesome jobs making the black and white great. And the toggle link needs to be at only 1 place in the page so that is not cluttering. Kdom 20:24, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Walt Disney started with black and white. Now you're just being an idiot by assuming I don't like black and white. It still clutters it and adds more to the article than is needed SeaTerror 20:47, September 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hey guys, insults need to be kept to yourself. 94.168.119.106 21:26, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Can I just say, I don't like the sidea that remains where history and other unededed images get toggled when images like this one, used in Shanks' "animand and manga difference" really need it and the history sections DON'T. 94.168.119.106 21:26, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Well if everyone like them why don't we use them. If we revert some of the anime to the manga ones then we don't increase the number of images on the wiki so that's no more an issue. And for those who absolutely want to see only color images on a page then the toggle can be use so only one type of art appear. Is there a problem with that solution ? Kdom 21:36, September 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * As much as the toggle feature can allow it, it really just creates more of a problem rather than solves one.


 * Forces the community to be divided into anime and manga.
 * Requires people, both old and new, to know coding especially if they want to see a set of images right away without toggling
 * Really asks for more images
 * Makes things a bit harder as some images in the manga can't be found in the anime
 * Likewise makes things a bit harder as some images in the anime can't be found in the manga


 * The toggle feature is nice, however just because people like it doesn't mean that every proposed use is acceptable. I mean I can propose to use the toggle feature so those that want "Hentai" versions of their favorite characters can be allowed.Mugiwara Franky 03:04, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Did you read my last post ? And the community wouldn't be divided if we let more place on the wiki like I suggest. it's the current anime only statu quo that divide it Kdom 05:54, September 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * I did read it and I still say it will cause problems. If you are gonna revert images to manga, there's the question of which images should be reverted. Also the proposals that are being proposed are what are dividing the community. Prior to the toggle feature, there was a general understanding on where both the anime and the manga stand. When it was implemented and the char box proposal was made, people now want to divide the wikia between manga and anime. People are even complaining that the anime is taking full precedence when its mostly in the image department where it is applied.Mugiwara Franky 08:41, September 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * MF has a point, there was no crib with using anime images before and to be quite honest, it had always been done. But the fact we stick by manga storyline does not mean we're not showing any catering at all towards the manga.  For a brief short history, when we all first came here from wikipedia, we stuck to manga storyline because the wikipedian communitity was forcing us to take anime over manga as president, more specifically the 4Kids anime version.  And believe me, the images we had on offer for the manga in those days came from MSN sites, a system long since retired due to the copyright infridegment going on those sites.  So we had to use images for anime because there simply weren't good images for the manga. Plus for our sakes and easier identification of just WHO was in the image, anime was a better calling then manga.  While it is less true now, back in those days even we had difficultly with odd very minor characters, we simply could tell who was who just yet because we weren't familair with those characters.  Its because of the anime pictures and more solid research, we slowly got where we were.


 * For the sake of being able to easily identify the characters in the picture, I think I prefer the anime over manga. If the colours are wrong, they'll either be updated as the series goes along or continue to be used anyway.  Consider something I've pointed out many times already; you only see many characters ONCE from Oda in colour.  One-Winged Hawk 09:24, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Concerning the toggle, my proposition has answered the point 3, 4, and 5.

For point 1, there was already a crib wrt the use of anime image, the fact that you didn't see it may be one thing but I didn't make this topic just for myself. When I introduced the toggle it was in order to satisfy people I had seen once complaining about the manga replacement. The toggle issue was only a catalyst to what was already existing. Also you admit it yourself, the reason we used only anime image are based on facts that are not true anymore. Hence the argument we have always do like that is not really valid and at least this discussion is not completely pointless.

Also, Mugiwara Franky, I'm a bit tired of seing you making it sound like it was just a dispute over if people prefer manga or anime. I could say that your desire to have only anime image is just because "you like the anime better". I think I have my point clear enough. The manga and the anime are the both mediums used for One Piece and there is no reason why we should favorise that much one wrt the other. You say that in the text we give the preference to manga, but that's not really true. Everytime the anime diverge from the manga it has its own section, when it has not it's just mean that the anime is exactly the same as the manga. Each medium has the place it deserve. So again, why don't we do for the images what we are doing for the text ? Images are the first thing that visitor see, and I'm sorry when they see an anime image next to a text, the first thing that comes into their mind is probably not what I read is what happens in the manga. In my propositions, anime has always had it's place. On the contrary, you always denied the desire to have manga pictures claiming that it was just a matter of preference for manga. I'm still waiting for you to prove me that your proposition to keep them out is not a matter of preference for the anime images.

Also the question of what image to revert is not really an issue. We can start forums on that topic like we have currently for the Arc boxes. I think that would be interesting as we would see what the community like in the manga and in the anime. Kdom 22:12, September 9, 2010 (UTC)