Forum:Unsigned Forum Loopholes

''Note:This forum was separated from the over-crowded and long-ignored Forum:Forum and Poll Rules Updates. It used to be its own section within that forum.''

Loopholes
The shenanigans SeaTerror has been pulling of copy/pasting the content of a forum that was marked for deletion because the creator did not sign should not be allowed. For reference here is the original forum, which was marked because the creator did not sign, and the forumheader was deleted, both of which are clear violations of the rules. And here is the same forum, except SeaTerror "created" it and signed the first post. It is clearly not his own ideas/content, as well as the fact that the history of the new forum no longer reflects the history of the actual forum.

It is a clear attempt at creating a loophole just because SeaTerror disagrees with the rules that were voted on during his ban. 06:12, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

I think it's about time we re evaluate these and repoll them. Only 11 people voted on the poll, which isn't nearly enough. 06:22, March 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * No. No. No. No. No. You need a lot more than "Only 11 people voted" to get the rules redone. You would need to show that an overwhelming amount of users want to change the rules, and they would have to post in here saying as much. The displeasure of you and ST is not enough. Now, unless you have anything to say about the actual subject of this section, don't post here. 06:32, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think you can tell me what to do.

I'll post here as much as I want.

It's not a loophole by the way, it's just the rules weren't written very well. 06:34, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

But I'm perfectly fine with introducing a "no copying forum posts ever rule". 06:35, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

I don't really find anything wrong with the rules, but if you want to propose to rewrite it, you should at least tell what you think is so confusing about it. Maybe it could be reworded to help you? Though I do agree, saying 11 people voted in the poll is a pretty stupid reason to re-evaluate the whole thing. Just tell what you're so confused about. 06:38, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Considering over half the community didn't vote.. yeah, that's a pretty big amount. Nothing is confusing. But the fact that ST can exploit a loophole like this proves the flaw in the writing. 06:40, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

This vote wasn't even how we are supposed to do things. We are supposed to discuss and vote on each different rule like we are doing on the current chat rules forum. I doubt the people who voted even read the sandbox and just assumed they were all good rules. It isn't a loophole and any new rewording would have to be voted on anyway. SeaTerror (talk) 07:01, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

If we make a poll about that,we must vote for each rule,like ST said 07:13, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

If there was a new poll we could do it like that, but there is no reason to redo the poll. There is nothing against the rules about the way the first poll was done, and I gave ample time for users to voice their opinions about both the content of the poll and it's structure, and nobody objected to the format. Prove a majority of users want new rules, then talk about a new forum.

Now, back to the subject at hand, how about a rule that just states "No user may steal or plagiarize the content of another user"? In addition, I'll also clarify that forum creator must sign themselves and no user may sign for them. 19:42, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

There was plenty of objection to the rules in the previous sections. They were chosen to be ignored and the poll went ahead. You're also making a big deal out of nothing since what I did is not stealing nor is it plagarism. There is also no rule that says a user cannot sign for another user. SeaTerror (talk) 19:56, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

There were objections to the rules, but no objections to the format of the polls, therefore the passing of the rules is "legal."

And the point of your re-posting the forum is that the history of the forum no longer reflects who actually posted. In the forum you created, we see the signature of User:ItchyNutz, yet when checking the history, we see that he never posted in this forum. That's not good.

The rule states "Forum creators must sign their posts. If forums are created without signed posts, they will be deleted." There are a couple ways in which this states you cannot sign for the creator. 1) "Forum creators must sign their posts " the use of the word "their" means that they must sign them themselves. 2) "If forums are created without signed posts..." the use of the word "created" shows that the signature must be present at the creation of the forum, not later when it is added by another user. Also, I was just stating that I would add another bullet to the rules once this discussion is over clarifying that users may not sign for others. 20:06, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Doesn't say you cannot sign for a user. At all. You also cannot add another bullet to it without discussion or a vote. Also if you're really complaining about history then you're the only one to blame since you are deleting an actual conversation with history just because of an IP user who obviously doesn't know better. Plus your rule is a contradiction in the first place because of the Template:Unsigned template that already existed long before you made those rules that people didn't read. You also still ignore that there were objections to the rules but chose to go ahead with the vote instead. SeaTerror (talk) 20:24, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

I mean, I guess it doesn't say you can't sign for them (though that might still be against the rules of alerting someone else's post). Regardless, your signing for them doesn't save any forums from being deleted. There were no objections to the poll itself, so there was no reason to stop the poll. It's just that simple. 20:29, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Isn't against the rules about editing somebody else's comment either. Oh and it does save them from deletion because regardless you are allowed to sign anyway. So if the comment gets signed it stays. Also read the comments if you think people didn't object to it. SeaTerror (talk) 22:02, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Don't fekkin' claim other's material as your own. That's called plagiarism. And don't give me none of that "this is the internet" bullshit. If the creator doesn't sign the post or removes the navibox, it gets deleted, the only exception allowed being if they realize they forgot to sign and sign it prior to intended deletion but after publication. Don't try to be cheeky and cover for people. It just makes you look like an asshole. 23:30, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

Completely wrong about the creator not signing. There isn't a rule stating you cannot sign for the creator. SeaTerror (talk) 23:40, March 7, 2013 (UTC)

I'm just gonna state this again, since it appears you didn't get it. Two reasons why the forums get deleted: 1) "Forum creators must sign their posts " the use of the word "their" means that they must sign them themselves. 2) "If forums are created without signed posts..." the use of the word "created" shows that the signature must be present at the creation of the forum, not later when it is added by another user.

And if you add a signature for someone else, you are altering their post. 06:32, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

Wrong on both counts. It literally says nothing about not adding a sig for them in the rules. Also you have to be insane if you think just adding a sig for somebody else is altering their posts. Go get the Unsigned Template deleted then. SeaTerror (talk) 09:39, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

Wow, really? Can please explain how I am wrong then? "You're wrong" and "It says nothing about it" aren't good explanations. Especially if when you actually think, it does mean that adding their signature

And the unsigned template is completely different from just adding someone's signature. I grow seriously tired of arguments based entirely on hyperbole, especially when they're so incorrect. A user's signature is their property, not a public thing. Adding it to their posts is using it without their permission, and also creates the idea that user signed at a different time than they actually did. The unsigned template however, is a public thing created so that users can attribute posts to the correct person.

The whole point of this rule is that it takes a harder line on forums with no signature, which were running rampant before this, even with use of the unsigned template. By requiring users who create forums to sign, we spread awareness to those users who create forums that we are serious about our rules. Together with FRR, I feel the number of unsigned and headerless forums has dropped, which is good. Your "loophole", which I feel shouldn't even be worth discussion just works to undermine the whole point of the rule, and it shouldn't be allowed just because of that (though as I've said already, the rule doesn't allow it anyways). 14:27, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

ST, if anything this argument is only making you look more like a pseudo-intellectual asshole than initially. You can not just say "You're wrong" and claim it an explanation. This is a running trend I've seen from you. You are being stubborn and annoying, as is a certain someone who shall go unnamed unless he finds out whom I mean. I'm sick of all this forum jonesing and arguing. What happened when this wikia wasn't a warzone?

People may claim we need forums to enforce rules or ideas, but I honestly would much rather have an admin-run dictatorship than constant arguments that suck the life out of this wiki and drives people off. --&#34;Got anything that isn&#39;t slaughtered yet? I like to look my meat in the eye before I kill it.&#34; - Pickles Oblong (talk) 15:10, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

I have to explain how you are wrong even though I said it in the next sentence? That's a new one. There literally is no forum rule that says you cannot sign for a user (not to mention its easy as hell to do anyway by checking timestamps). The unsigned template can also be used. There is also no rule against what I did with my forum, so there isn't a "doesn't allow it anyway" rule. SeaTerror (talk) 18:59, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

"You are being stubborn and annoying, as is a certain someone who shall go unnamed unless he finds out whom I mean."

http://www.singleforareason.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/cool-story-bro-tell-it-again-hoodie_design1.png

As for the topic, just make it a rule that other users can't add signatures for each other, or recreate deleted topics. Solution has been presented, now use it. 21:52, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

We would need to discuss any new rule changes like that. SeaTerror (talk) 22:06, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

We don't need a rule about not signing other people's posts. Seriously… Now, it shouldn't be forbidden to recreate a deleted forum either. It was deleted for a trivial reason, easily "fixable". If the new post fixes it, I see no problem. (Claiming the post your own is not fixing it though.)

I know we don't need a rule about it because it would be a bad rule. I also never claimed it as my own. SeaTerror (talk) 19:32, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

This section is still unresolved and there's no rule yet. Can we get a clear majority or an Admin-approved ruling so we can close this matter? 00:35, February 13, 2014 (UTC)