Talk:Kikunojo

Saku
I was just wondering why the page is called Kiku when I see it translated as Saku. If someone could please explain that. 02:43, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

JB says Kiku. MS says Saku. Raw says 菊 (きく), not さく. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 04:02, August 4, 2018 (UTC)

Full name
Recently in chapter 939 (page 2) Hiyori called Kiku "Kikunojo". Cracker-Kun (talk) 23:44, April 12, 2019 (UTC)

Let's wait until it's used more to determine whether or not that's her real name. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 02:23, April 13, 2019 (UTC)

Gender
So, should we change all the shes to hes since Kiku is actually a man?Ghmorello (talk) 05:46, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

I thought the chapter indicated she is just posing as one. Regardless, it's way too unclear. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 05:50, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Actually, I think I misread it. I'm a little hesitant to jump forth immediately, but it should probably be changed. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 05:55, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Greetings from the SOF wiki hi, why don't we just make Kiku's page say they and call it a day. No misgendering = no problems boiz.

Regards, That Guy that Says Things (talk) 06:47, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

She identifies as a women so thus she is a woman who uses she/her. Giant Shy Guy (talk) 06:54, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

He said he is a "woman at heart" which is not exactly identifying as a woman. He uses a male version of "I", plus the Nine Red Scabbards in the original Japanese are specifically referred to as "Nine Red Scabbard Men" or the like. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 07:11, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Should he be considered an okama?
 * 🏴‍☠️👸🏻 (talk) 07:40, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

It was a disguise so it had nothing to do with transgenderism. SeaTerror (talk) 08:52, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

"Kokoro wa onna desu", "my heart/soul is a woman", I don't know how you could possibly be any more clear about her identifying as a woman. If a later chapter backsup it being entirely about disguise or art as an onnagata, it could be up for debate. But as it is I do think changing to he/him pronouns would be inappropriate (BLou-Lilie (talk) 09:32, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

But the thing is, he talks like a man (like with male pronouns and stuff) if I remember correctly. Why would we not use a male pronoun if the character himself uses male pronouns.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 09:43, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

The same reason Big Mom uses ore. She's been treated and refered to as a woman thus far, and admitted to being a woman at heart. There is no precedent thus far that he'd rather be called a man, regardless of the group she belongs in puts her under a name that specifices man. Until a later chapter reveales that she is only using it as diguise and really does prefer being treated male, then information thus far says she is a she. Giant Shy Guy (talk) 10:36, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

I just noticed despite being an active discussion the entire article has already been changed to male??? Giant Shy Guy (talk) 10:43, July 5, 2019 (UTC)


 * When asked if he's a man, Kikunojo replied "I am a woman at heart", so the least we know is that Kikunojo is a male. Whether or not he identified as something is to be determined so for now Kikunojo is a male. Rhavkin (talk) 11:31, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

In my opinion he is clearly an okama, I mean, he is a man who dresses like a woman, and who identifies himself as a woman. Cracker-Kun (talk) 12:53, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

"Kokoro wa onna desu", "my heart/soul is a woman" suggests that Kiku identifies as fenale, so we should be using she or they Are You Serious (talk) 14:51, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Also, on the topic of O-kiku using "sessha" a "male" first pronoun for samurai. Japanese pronouns don't work exactly like english pronouns. Like mentioned above, Big Mom uses "ore", which is also considered a "male" pronoun. It's also not an uncommon trope in manga in general for female characters to use "male" pronouns for a variety of reasons. But also in real life japanese, pronouns do not indicate what you identify as. It's like wearing clothes, a man can wear a dress when he wants to, but that doesn't mean he identifies as a woman. You can literally use "ore" in personal conversations but use "watashi" in professional settings (or other pronouns in whatever situations, this is just one example). It doesn't change your identity. So I don't think Kiku using "sessha" is proof she identifies as a man. If her "posing as a woman" was purely for the sake of disguise it would also make no sense for her to use a pronoun associated with samurai. So, like I said in my earlier post, I don't know how you could possibly be any more clear about her identifying as a woman than saying "my heart/soul is a woman". (BLou-Lilie (talk) 15:14, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

"Ore" is occasionally used by female characters. As far as I know, "sessha" is not used in the same way. His usage of "sessha" was when he literally said "I am a samurai", so there is no issue about him keeping his cover since he effectively blew it there no matter what.

Jaimini's points out another thing indicating Kiku is male: in Japanese, the Nine Red Scabbards are called Akazaya Ku-nin Otoko, Otoko obviously meaning male to connotate they're called the "Nine Red Scabbard Men", which translations leave out for clarity. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 15:36, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I'm sorry but, obviously you will find more instances of "ore" being used by female characters. It is one of the most common first pronouns in general. I think it'll be hard to make a long list of characters that use sessha in general, let alone finding an instance where there could be an argument over the characters gender identification. That doesn't dispute pronouns not necessarily indicating one's identity anyway.

And yes I am well aware of the groups name. However I don't think it is relevant to Kiku's personal identity? The name was probably not chosen by the members themselves, and in this very chapter we have someone assuming "Kikunojo" as a male samurai. The public's view is irrelevant to Kiku's personal identity. The name could also possibly have come from a time before Kiku's "coming out", so to say. Either way, I think it's more of a meta narrative device of Oda doing his classic foreshadowing, to let the readers suspect Kiku being a Man or Trasnwoman before giving clarification. Just like her name is a reference to a famous onnagata. None of this holds any water against Kiku literally saing she is a woman at heart.

Even if you're very adamant about it not being clear cut, why should changing all pronouns to he/him before getting any proof of her identifying as male, which there is none, be more important than possibly trans erasure? I really feel like this was jumping the gun on a very delicate topic. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 16:07, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Because Kikunojō is not a trans woman. Unfortunately, Oda-sensei is not very well versed in trans anything, which is why we get okama, which follow the same conflation of drag queens and trans folk that plagues the trans community in the United States. He is based on a combination of onnagata, who were also frequently male prostitutes on the side (and Kiku, or chrysanthemum, was a euphemism for anus, particularly with regard to male-male sex) and beautiful pages like Mori Ranmaru (apocryphally speaking) who served their lords both inside and outside of the bedroom. As a kabuki fan, Oda-sensei would definitely like the onnagata element, and references to the Warring States period are par for the course in Japan. At absolute best, he is an okama, which is an extremely problematic identity and a term that is considered derogatory among the LGBTQ+ community in Japan today. 58.89.146.212 16:23, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

What about waiting the needed time for confirmation, no matter how much that time is, to say whether Kiku is a "he" or a "she"? And while we wait keeping her as a "she"? Would that hurt someone? 16:24, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

If that really makes more people comfortable, I'm okay with it. From the perspective of Japanese history and culture, especially Edo period culture (the basis of Wano Kuni), there's no real question as to what Kikunojō is referencing. But if people are concerned about trans erasure (a legitimate concern), then keep the pronouns as female. But there should be more information in the trivia about the various references to male-male sexuality, and people should be prepared to change it should the word of God say that Kikunojō is male. 58.89.146.212 16:29, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Even Ivankov's page refer to his as he. The category shouldn't change the page since he is 100% not a female. Rhavkin (talk) 18:47, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

How come there is a back and forth battle of changing the pronouns, yet there's no further arguments for using he/him on the actual talk page? If you're so adamant about using he/him, give a proper reasoning instead of just quietly changing back the pronouns. The latest post was "okay with" keeping it as she/her and no one argued further? If you don't want to commit to either just use they/them, but, I'm sorry, this is getting really immature... If it's still about the "sessha", japanese pronouns don't work like english. You cannot inheritely stick one gender to a pronoun. Gendered pronouns don't exist in japanese the way the do in english. Pronouns indicate your status or role in a given istuation. You can change them dependingly. It's like changing clothes. A man can wear a dress without indentifying as a woman. A woman can wear a three piece suit without indentifying as a man. You'd use a more timid pronoun like "watashi" when talking to your boss, instead of "ore",which you might use in a private setting. Associations to a specific gender go hand in hand with what societal norms are expected from that gender. "Sessha" is considered a male pronoun because samurai are supposed to be men. Kiku using sessha does not indicate she identifies as a man. She uses it because she is a samurai, much like the other samurai use it. Kiku saying she is a woman at heart however, is a clear indication that she identifies as a woman. Further more she actually says this as a correction of someone calling her a man. If there's any other arguments, I'd be happy to discuss further. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 20:29, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Well, technically speaking, since the wiki tries not to assume stuff, we shouldn't assume that Kikunojo wants to be referred to as "she." The most concrete and set in stone evidence is that she is actually a male. The quote in question that "My heart/soul is that of a woman" is debatable to whether it discredits her being a he. One can interpret that as a correction of Chopper calling her a man, but it can also be interpreted as a confirmation to Chopper's question, such that "Yes I am a man, but my heart is that of a woman." All we know for sure is that she is an actual male and so based on minimal use of assumption, we would have to use "he/him" until further clarification.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 21:23, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Heavily disagree. Precisely because of the "woman at heart" comment coming as a correction to being called a male she should be reffered to as female until it should be directly contradicted by Oda, which I hope will never happen.

Elizabello 2 (talk) 21:31, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

To be honest, this is a difficult for me to find an answer to. Based on my quick research, Kiku is a transwoman (born a man, but identifies as a female (at heart)), so I think he feels to be a woman. Pronouns are not something common in Japanese, so unless Oda does something in what should be used —though I think he’s fine with either or— I don’t know what to say.OishiLover75 (talk) 21:39, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

I don't know how "My heart/soul is a woman" could be interpreted any other way. But alright, I'm curious. Just how much more explicit do you think it's gonna get in a japanese shonen manga? Because I feel like you're setting an impossible standard. If Kiku does identify as a man, that'd be very easy to clarify. But to be more explicit than "My Heart is a Woman"? To me it's very much clear and I don't know how much more obvious it would need to be. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 21:52, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Ah also, like I said, if you just wanna be safe either way, just use they/them? Definitely better than the edit war. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 21:54, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Remind me why “they” is a good pronoun. I always thought that was more for plural usage, or fusions involving a male and a female in Steven Universe’s case.OishiLover75 (talk) 22:06, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

They/them can be considered a non binary/ gender neutral pronoun. Funny you mention Steven Universe, not all Fusions use they/them, Garnet for example uses she/her. It's not necessarily intended to be plural for the fusions. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 22:14, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

Although "they" is considered by some to be the best choice when not assuming gender, that usually is only the case in when you don't know the subject. For example: "That person broke something. They should fix it." However, in this case, we know who the subject is, and in the eyes of the everyday common English language, that is a weird use of a plural pronoun when using it in the article and it's going to stand out as weird. Also, calling Kiku transgender is putting a modern agenda on a character in a manga from a country that is based off of ancient Japan. The safest way to characterize Kiku is how we define Izo, a cross-dressing man.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 22:19, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

I believe the term is just meant for identification purposes, not for a case of a social agenda. However, I do see how Oda is showing corruption of society against what gender want to be.OishiLover75 (talk) 22:25, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Should stay as he/him as always been the case with similar characters (plus Kikunojo was in disguise) and for reasons said above. Also funny that the only ones making a big deal about this are people who only joined today but never raised a fuss about Ivankov's article. -Groosenat0r (talk) 22:30, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Ivankov isn't the same. He identifies as both a man and a woman and his default form is the male form so it makes sense to refer to him as a man. Kiku identifies as a woman so I don't see why we wouldn't refer to her as a woman. DewClamChum (talk) 22:42, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Plus I think Kiku expressing herself. The dress may not be a disguise.OishiLover75 (talk) 22:49, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Ok, so, I'm just gonna skip the irrelevant comment and tackle this one by one. Isn't it a little silly to refer to transgender as a modern agenda, while also talking about cross-dressing? Aren't both modern terms? Also no one called Kiku literally transgender. We don't need to use the term if it's too modern. Kiku said she is a woman at heart. To me, that says it all. I kinda missed out on adressing it before, but Kiku does not use sessha only after revealing herself as a samurai, she uses it earlier when introducing herself to Luffy and Zoro, while still "in disguise". Also, if you really wanna go with assuming the absolute minimum: Kiku never confirmed being a man. The Japanese literally only says as a respone "My heart/soul/mind is a woman" to the question of whether or not she is a man. I know some translations put a "Yes, but..." there, but that is not in the original. It's an assumption. Kiku says she's a woman, that is all. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 23:07, July 5, 2019 (UTC))

I normally don't mess with the wiki, but I was curious and wanted to see the discussion.

Honest question: what do you guys think someone means when they say "I am a woman at heart/soul"?

Do you think it means they're a man? The character themselves made an open statement on their gender, who are we to say they are wrong? It seems like you guys need a written statement from Oda to believe this character is female, but nobody asks for the same when we talk about cisgender characters.

Lumiruka (talk) 23:16, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Just gonna drop this in real quick: "The clearest sign of Kikunojo's gender is him referring to himself with sessha (拙者 or せっしゃ?), an archaic form of "I" used by male samurai.[8]" Also why did you edit Blou-Lilie's post? Groosenat0r (talk) 23:44, July 5, 2019 (UTC)

Remember, samurai back in feudal Japan were men. It was not accepted for a female to be one. That’s why just because she said sheesha, it just refers to her being a samurai. OishiLover75 (talk)00:06, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

That literally has nothing to do with Kiku. This arc is based off of feudal Japan. Transgender is a modern term that did not exist back then. SeaTerror (talk) 00:44, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Transgender, as a term, may not have existed back then, but trans people still existed. I'm no historian, but Wikipedia does mention you could trace trans people in history all the way to the Edo Period. And they're everywhere in History, two-spirit people are an example if you're in the US.

And sorry, if I did edit anyone's comment, it was not my intention. I opened the edit window and reloaded it before pasting my reply to ensure I didn't erase anyone's comments (since I had it opened for a long while), but I guess that wasn't enough. I'm certain you could find a handful things that did not exist in the feudal period, but are in Wano. Besides, trans people exist in One Piece (Ivankov and Inazuma are good examples), so I don't see why Wano shouldn't have them.

Transgender is a term that may not have existed, but the people did exist. Just like how gay people were around way before 'homosexual' was coined as a term.

02:25, July 6, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

Okama literally means transvestite, not transgender. SeaTerror (talk) 02:27, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Kiku may not be a Okama, but just a transgender person. Plus I heard people with transgender don’t want to be confused with transvestites. OishiLover75 (talk)02:45, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

While I do want to challenge the claim that Okama means "transvestite" specifically...

Ivankov's gender is *offiicially* Newkama, which is something specific to One Piece. According to the wiki itself, the Newkama say they have gone "beyond gender". Even without finding a real-life equivalent term (which I know, for a fact, exists, the term being "non-binary gender"), you can simply apply the meaning of transgender to this, which is "identifying as a gender which you were not assigned with at birth".

I don't think I need to explain further, but the newkama are, by definition, trans people.

And yeah, transgender isn't the same as transvestite. It's not about dressing, but about your gender.

02:46, July 6, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

Being based off of feudal Japan, there is no concept of "transgender," they are simply men that cross-dress like woman. No matter how much one's inner heart was a woman, no one went around asking people to refer to them as "she" and no one did either. Also, Kikunojo is a reference to Segawa Kikunojo, the Kabuki actor that cross-dressed as female for his roles. No one refers to any of the seven generations of Kikunojo as "she." Nightmare Pirates (talk) 03:01, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

She is 'a woman at heart' and is referred to with feminine honorifics ('o-Kiku'), so her pronouns are implied to be she/her despite her using a traditional samurai (male) pronoun for herself ('sessha', 拙者) but Big Mom uses 'ore (俺)' and is still she/her. Sessha is not conclusively male, it's just that all samurai were male so it's a presumed-male pronoun, but so is 'ore'. Using 'he/him' and calling her a 'man' seems like intentionally applying western gender analysis to how Oda is presenting o-Kiku, but seems like that's not the majority view on this wiki for now. (edit: thanks User:Lumiruka and User:BLou-Lilie for your posts below, just read and saw we are not the only ones who think this he/him switch from she/her is not justified and should be swapped back immediately) PersephoneQuarius (talk) 03:04, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

I think Kikunojo is also a reference to the yokai Yuki-onna, since she is referred to as “The Lingering Snow”.OishiLover75 (talk)03:11, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Not once I recall saying there is a concept of transgender in One Piece, only that we can equate it to real-life concepts, and that newkama consider themselves to be "beyond gender". That much is fact, not opinion.

Anyway, since we were referring to Kiku until we found out she has a penis, it's safe to say Kiku was either referred to as female until now by absolutely everyone they met (Kin'emon, Sanji, Zoro), or, at the very least, gender-neutral pronouns translated as "female".

I'm not saying Kiku's gonna go around asking people to call them female, that seems to be a modern concept of what "trans" is. Transgender still existed back in Edo Period, though, even if it was not what we see today.

Back on topic: if the original japanese raws refer to Kiku in female terms (excluding "sessha", as I think we have established there is no other pronoun a samurai would be using, correct me with the "female equivalent of sessha" if I am wrong), especially after Chapter 948, it will be more than clear that Kiku is a trans woman (i.e. girl with a penis), and this discussion will be over.

It will likely be more productive to wait until then to take a conclusion, but do we really need to know more than what Kiku told us herself? That she is a "female at heart"? She didn't say "I'm a man, but...", she said "female at heart". Do we really need more than that? Why? Do you think people in Wano ask each other what's in their pants before deciding the gender of whom they are talking to?

As for the Kikunojo reference, I think that just makes it more clear Kiku is a "girl with a boy body". That is a common depiction of trans women, even if we have recently been finding it's not the best way to put it as.

Also, do remember: there were Onnagata who behaved socially as females even outside of the Kabuki theaters. Isn't living as a gender the same as being that gender? Is that not, literally, what being trans means: to be a gender that isn't what you were called just because of what's in your pants?

I think I was pretty clear. If we still disagree, then I think we can at least agree on waiting to see the terms used to refer to Kiku after episode 948, and change (or maintain) the pronouns accordingly.

03:27, July 6, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

The discussion will be over when a poll happens most likely. The issue with that is the majority of people in support of calling Kiku female can't vote due to the wiki's voting rules. SeaTerror (talk) 03:37, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

It could be interesting to make a poll in the One Piece subreddit. Is there a particular reason as to why we would be unable to accept that?

03:49, July 6, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

The subreddit isn't part of the wiki. SeaTerror (talk) 04:51, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

" Being based off of feudal Japan, there is no concept of "transgender," " I don't know about you, but I'm not in feudal Japan. They also don't have aconcept of Devil Fruit users, yet the wiki refers to them as such. They also have no concept of "gun", yet we all know a gun when we see one. We wouldn't need someone in-universe pull out a dictionary confirming they have a concept for "homosexual" in order for us, real life human beings, to be able to see a homosexual relationship and recognize it as such. Kiku is the definition of transgender, whether or not the concept and recognition of them is confirmed or not. We, as the readers, posses the ability to see and recognize that Kiku identifies as a woman, she, to reiterate, says that "[Her] Heart is a Woman" (Kokoro can mean a variety of things, heart, soul, mind, feelings, but they all proof the point). She doesn't even give the question of whether or not she is a man the benfit of ''confirmation or denial. ''The only response is that she is a woman. At this point, the gender you adress Kiku with, it entirely about your own personal bias. And I choose to refer to someone explicitly identifying as a woman, as such. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 06:26, July 6, 2019 (UTC)) Sorry for some reason I was logged out, but it was me all along (BLou-Lilie (talk) 06:26, July 6, 2019 (UTC))

Kikunojo is supposedly transgender and refers to herself as a woman at heart apparently. That would Infer (because a lot of things like this are usually implied not told directly to normalize the concept) that she identifies as a woman. So I'll bring up my suggestion again of calling her They until something is officialized. Regardless of anyone's stances on LGBT or on historical accuracy or on what she says in a language most of us don't speak or if she's an okama or not. It's the easiest compromise between the people that wanna decide her pronouns based on her sex and presumed gender.

Also, I'll remind everyone involved in this active topic that has already been decided on since all of her pronouns have already been altered that gender is a really nebulous concept nowadays. We're probably Never going to figure out what her pronouns are until somebody says 'there she is' or 'there he is' when they see her. So I'll say again that we just make it They/Them so that nobody is offended and then set it to what it should be later when the next log book comes out.

Regards, That Guy that Says Things (talk) 07:12, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

They/them pronouns have been suggested as a middle ground multiple times, but apparently even that is asking too much.

"until somebody says 'there she is' or 'there he is' when they see her. " Unfortunately, that is gonna be very difficult considering how the japanese language works. You can leave out the "topic" from a sentence if you consider it can be understood from the context. So a sentence could technically just be "There comes!" and who is arriving will be clear by looking at them. Not to mention that japanese usually uses gender neutral third person pronouns, so even if a third person pronoun is used specifically, it likely won't tell us anything about gender identification. They didn't even have gendered third person pronouns in japanese before they started translating western literature. When "he" or "she", or infact any personal pronoun, is used in english translations, there is a high chance it's an assumption made by the translator based on the context.

I agree, again, that it would be easiest to just use they/them as a neutral term for either side. But there also should be realistic expectations as to what more proof you would possibly need for confirmation. Again, gendered pronouns don't work that way in japanese, you cannot be any more clear than saying "I am a Woman at heart". (BLou-Lilie (talk) 07:30, July 6, 2019 (UTC))

This has gone to far from the main topic.


 * 1) Translation is not liner, and we as a wiki decided many times that in cases were translation is troublesome, to wait for the official release.
 * 2) This hasn't been adressed so i'll ask now: What exactly was said about Kiku that made Chopper ask if he is a man?
 * 3) Kiku has without a doubt presented himself as a female, but described himself as male. This is far from being a woman or a crossdresser or an okama, and in fact, comparing to the real world, until clarification, is simply called "Queer" or "Fluid".
 * 4) This discussion is about a mere line at the latest chapter. Give it time to be further explored and in the meantime, being "a woman in heart" isn't "being a women" nor "being an okama", all that we do know is that Kiku was called a man and didn't rejected the claim, just expanded upon it.

Rhavkin (talk) 08:46, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

The only reason the conversation is still going is b/c it still says he/him on her page. Also I clipped the thing for you for reference Rhav (the full page is a lil farther up too apparently), I'll agree however that these are fan translations done by not-professionals for funsies. I'm just an outspoken activist coming out of the woodwork to argue a point b/c I see something wrong and I'm gonna say something about it. I'm sure Lillie is here for the exact same reason.

Regards,

That Guy that Says Things (talk) 09:19, July 6, 2019 (UTC)


 * Also since I'm here, for the benefit of anyone still putting around in this talk page it might be a good moment for everyone to read up on GLAAD's page about transgender folk so we can all be on the same page. Maybe you'll learn something.

https://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

Regards, That Guy that Says Things (talk) 09:24, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Prisoner: "あの面…おでん城で死んだ筈の…！！ ワノ国一の美青年剣士"残雪の菊の丞"と同じ面！？" (I'm not gonna translate the entire sentence, we all read the chapter) The term in question is "美青年剣士", "biseinenkenshi", which we can take apart into "美青年" and "剣士" "剣士" kenshi just mean swordsfighter, man or woman. "美青年" "biseinen" however, although none of the kanji are specifically gendered, the term refers to a handsome youth, a good looking young man. So it's a good looking young man swordfighter. To which, if you want the rest of the scene, Chopper asks "え！！？男なのか！？", "E!!? Otokonanoka!?", which is just "Eh!? You're a man?" And finally Kiku's response: “心は女です. ♡”, “Kokoro wa Onna desu.♡” "My heart is a Woman" So, I don't think that random prisoner has any authority on deciding Kiku's gender, and Kiku's response clearly reads as a correction, at the very least as to what she identifies as. (BLou-Lilie (talk) 09:26, July 6, 2019 (UTC))

I'm just gonna adress the points made by Rhavkin:

1. While official translations are not always without fail, I agree that is a good stance in general. But there's obviously been some confusion and misunderstanding about some concepts such as pronouns. So while we wait for the official translations, I don't think it's a bad thing to spread some information and clear up some misunderstandings.

2. "That Guy" provided a part from a scanlation, and I added the japanese original for clarity.

3. Please, do tell me when Kiku described herself as male? Because she did not as far as I remember. If it's about the pronoun of "sessha", you can go ahead and read this argument being adressed multiple times above, or you can go ahead and change Big Mom's pronouns to he/him if you want to stand by your reasoning no matter what.

4. I highly recommend checking out that handy link provided by that guy. Also Kiku not denying the claim she is a man means she is a man? Now in my opinion her "expansion" to the claim reads as a correction, but either way she says her heart/soul/mind is that of a woman, which is like the definition of transgender.

(BLou-Lilie (talk) 10:42, July 6, 2019 (UTC))

Some comments: 180.190.195.212 10:57, July 6, 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) As much as it's claimed that the "My heart is a Woman" line is clear enough evidence, it really seems it just isn't if some comments here are to believed. Other factors like the "sessha" usage, the apparent onnagata references, and the Red Scabbards name in Japanese really do seem to muddle things up no mater how much they're dissuaded.
 * 2) Right now, it's so far just revealed that Kiku is actually a man at it's most basic. It thus might be necessary to just wait for a couple more chapters to come out and such to see if there's more evidence to conclude definitely whether or not Kiku self identifies as female and thus should be referred to as such. Best to stick to what's been presented at it's most basic for the moment.
 * 3) Any explanation such as the Red Scabbards were probably named as such before Kiku "came out" or the public's view on Kiku is completely irrelevant borders a bit on pure speculation. Unless more clarification is actually given, such attempts at explaining things may confuse matters even more than they already are.
 * 4) At the moment, there's the prospect that Kiku could be a "proper" trans character however it's just as likely that Kiku could simply be another crossdressing character that Oda has been known for.
 * 5) On a sidenote: Big Mom using "ore" appears to be a completely different usage in context than Kiku using "sessha" from what can be gathered. When Big Mom uses "ore", it's used to frame her as a violent brute. When Kiku uses "sessha", it's used to frame Kiku as a samurai as well as apparently being used as a hint to Kiku's actual gender. The context is different in both cases.

Maybe it's best to wait for Kiku's Vivre Card to go on sale? cdavymatias (talk) 11:00, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

'''"If it is not possible to ask a transgender person which pronoun they use, use the pronoun that is consistent with the person's appearance and gender expression or use the singular they." -''' Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation

In GLAAD's Glossary of Terms, linked by That Guy above, under the section on transgender names, pronoun usage & descriptions.

Also Cross-Dresser falls under the umbrella term of Transgender.

I highly recommend reading through more than just that passage though since clearly there's some ignorance towards this topic.

(BLou-Lilie (talk) 11:04, July 6, 2019 (UTC))

'''Transgender women are not cross-dressers or drag queens. Drag queens are men, typically gay men, who dress like women for the purpose of entertainment. Be aware of the differences between transgender women, cross-dressers, and drag queens. Use the term preferred by the person. Do not use the word "transvestite" at all, unless someone specifically self-identifies that way. '''

There's this line in the link provided by That Guy. Does this mean crossdressers aren't transgender? If so then how can cross-dresser fall under the umbrella term of transgender?180.190.195.212 11:15, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

All I'm saying is that if someone asked me if I'm a man, I would say "no". If I were a man who either identify as a female, or a male that wants to be address as a female, I would say "no". If I was identified by another as a male alias, I would say "no".

The only time I would say I'm "a woman at heart" was if I was a man, who identify as a man, want to be address as a man, but not be confined by male common acts, and prefer female act including wearing female clothing and makeup, refrain from arguments (like when Kiku hid behind Zoro in Bakura Town), show a caring nature (as shown towards Tsuru, Tama, etc.), and show affection openly (hugging Kin'emon). Rhavkin (talk) 11:19, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

It refers to "transgender woman", or "transwoman" for short, it's different from the umbrella term "transgender because it's specififes the identity of woman. The umbrella term still includes cross-dresser.

Also I missed out on your other reply because we edited at the same time, so:

On the Big Mom note: Yes, the context is different. The point is that these pronouns aren't gendered, they express the context and status of a setting. Big mom is violent, Kiku is a samurai. I've explained in more detail how japanese pronouns work before already, and I feel like I'm already repeating myself too much anyway. But again: ''Japanese pronouns do not work the way they do in english! ''

HOW is someone "revealing" Kiku as a "man" the basic above Kiku saying she is a woman at heart.

So okay, so, when you ask someone "Are you a man?" and their response is "I'm a woman" you go "Well that's not a no"?

(BLou-Lilie (talk) 11:26, July 6, 2019 (UTC))

First and foremost, this is not an issue about transgender/LBGTQ and should not be turned into an issue of that. That is overpoliticizing the topic of whether the wiki should refer to Kiku as she or he. For those claiming that it is a personal bias for those that want to refer to Kiku as a he, likewise, shows a personal bias in wanting to call her/him a she. The job of the wiki is to present information as it is given, which would, first and foremost, be that Kiku is a male. Using "he" would actually be the most unbiased because it looks at only facts and not assumptions. The fact is Kiku is a crossdressing male. Male = he/him. Now yes, gender and sex may not be the same thing, but that is not relevant for this topic, especially when many languages and cultures don't differentiate the two. Nightmare Pirates (talk) 11:26, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Someone's identity has nothing to do with politics.

The link for GLAAD is specifically for providing informations, such as guidelines for journalists, so it's a perfectly reasonable standard for an information based wiki.

Since you probably won't go out of your way to check it out, these are the relevant parts to this very discussion:
 * Transgender (adj.)
 * An umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from what is typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. People under the transgender umbrella may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms - including transgender. Some of those terms are defined below. Use the descriptive term preferred by the person. Many transgender people are prescribed hormones by their doctors to bring their bodies into alignment with their gender identity. Some undergo surgery as well. But not all transgender people can or will take those steps, and a transgender identity is not dependent upon physical appearance or medical procedures.
 * Gender Expression
 * External manifestations of gender, expressed through a person's name, pronouns, clothing, haircut, behavior, voice, and/or body characteristics. Society identifies these cues as masculine and feminine, although what is considered masculine or feminine changes over time and varies by culture. Typically, transgender people seek to align their gender expression with their gender identity, rather than the sex they were assigned at birth.
 * Use the pronoun that matches the person's authentic gender.
 * A person who identifies as a certain gender, whether or not that person has taken hormones or undergone surgery, should be referred to using the pronouns appropriate for that gender. If you are not certain which pronoun to use, ask the person, "What pronouns do you use?"
 * Use the pronoun that matches the person's authentic gender.
 * A person who identifies as a certain gender, whether or not that person has taken hormones or undergone surgery, should be referred to using the pronouns appropriate for that gender. If you are not certain which pronoun to use, ask the person, "What pronouns do you use?"


 * If it is not possible to ask a transgender person which pronoun they use, use the pronoun that is consistent with the person's appearance and gender expression or use the singular they.
 * For example, if a person wears a dress and uses the name Susan, feminine pronouns are usually appropriate. Or it is also acceptable to use the singular they to describe someone when you don't wish to assign a gender. For example: "Every individual should be able to express their gender in a way that is comfortable for them."
 * (BLou-Lilie (talk) 11:33, July 6, 2019 (UTC))
 * (BLou-Lilie (talk) 11:33, July 6, 2019 (UTC))

This link says that transgender and crossdresser aren't the same thing. If they are defined as two different terms here, how can one therefore be defined as being under the other?

The GLAAD link also specifically says that Some of those terms are defined below in the Transgender entry. Keyword is some I guess. It doesn't clarify if Cross-dresser is one of these terms but there is that line saying Transgender women aren't cross-dressers. Therefore wouldn't that mean Crossdresser is not under Transgender. Why do semantic gymnastics when it can simply be understood as such.

Sessha is apparently gendered based on a couple of links such as Wikipedia. Also it's constantly repeated that Japanese pronouns do not work the way they do in english. Is this an absolute rule for sure? Can it really not be used in this case with a pronoun that's typically used by males by a character that's revealed to be actually male?

Referring Kiku to as male really is the most basic thing. As shown here, that one specific line of Kiku's can be interpreted in different ways and people can't agree if it really means that Kiku self identifies as a woman or it just means Kiku prefers behaving in a more effeminate way. It's just not that clear no matter how many times it's argued. What is undeniably clear is that Kiku was identified as a good looking youthful man as translated.

Also, the whole thing with GLAAD that's been brought up while informative kinda really doesn't aid much in this case to some degree as this topic deals with a Japanese shonen series not a Western series that goes by guidelines set up by a Western organization to be more politically correct. It really just muddles things up and deviates from the actual topic at hand.180.190.195.212 12:55, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

A transgender woman or a transgender man aren't necessarily cross-dressers and vice versa. That is not the same as the umbrella term, transgender. I know this is difficult when you're not familiar with it. If you talk about transwomen and transmen then that already incorporates their identity. I had explained this above but it's just one line. also there is a part about cross-dressers if you want to look for it. But if you want this isn't even necessary.

I'm aware that is what wikipedia says. It's just easier to say "this is for men" and "this is for women" than "This pronoun expresses a status/role/trait that is associated with this gender by societal norms"

"Can it really not be used in this case with a pronoun that's typically used by males by a character that's revealed to be actually male?" of course it can be used, it is used that is why we talk about it. What I'm saying is that it shouldn't be used as evidence to proof what Kiku identifies as.

As you can see "ore" is also labeled as "male". These guidelines aren't inteded for fictional characters, they are to unsure you as a real life person don't use a pronoun considered inappropriate in a given setting. Sure Big Mom can get away with saying "ore", she's a priate. But even for men, using that in a professional setting would be highly inappropriate. And again, it's a samurai pronoun, there is no alternative for women.

Even if you argue we cannot know what Kiku identifies as, she still very evidently expresses her gender in a feminine way and by the guidelines, again also inteded for journalism and the like, even irregardless of gender identity, you should refer to a person as the gender they express themselves as if you have no other information to guide you. And yes sure, it doesn't deal with japanese, but the wiki isn't in japanese either now is it? It's in english and should live up to the standard. Again, if we cannot use these guidelines for the english wiki, and you want explicit "preferred pronouns" in a japanese manga, i.e. a language where there is no such thing as preffered pronouns exist, then you just set an impossible to reach precident for any character to ever be recognized as any on the trans spectrum unless they are pompous exaggerations like Ivankov. I hope you can understand why that is problematic.

I really have no idea how this discussion is taking this long. Someone clearly jumped the gun wanting to change it to the newest information without having enough background knowledge of the topic at hand, and now it just feels like being too stubborn to change it back.

I certainly didn't intend to argue this long, but I'm baffled

(BLou-Lilie (talk) 13:36, July 6, 2019 (UTC))

I support Cdavymatias' idea to wait until their Vivre Card entry comes out. I am perfectly fine if we use "they/them" pronouns until then. 14:15, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Since you're flooding the discussion with a bunch of irrevelant crap to the discussion you now have to prove GLAAD existed in feudal Japan. SeaTerror (talk) 18:37, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

There have been many characters that are transgender in other series and they still refer to them as Male even though they may look/identify as female.I think that we should keep it as he/him because that's what we're supposed to show. AlexPlayzz (talk) 18:52, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

If the consensus is that Kikunojo's gender is still unclear because there can be many interpretations, that's one thing.

Saying, that we cannot apply real-life terms to fiction makes no sense, as we often derive concepts from our lives to fiction, and, to an extent, writers expect us to do so. We should not expect a story to show us dictionary meanings of each word in order to ensure we know what they mean in the fictional world; we can simply derive from what we know.

I do agree, however, that we should not need to rely on GLAAD; instead, those who wish to discuss about trans characters should read up on what transgender actually means. This is not being "politically correct"; LGBTQ+ people also exist in Japan.

Direct reply to AlexPlayzz:

If a character is a transgender person, specifically a trans woman, and they are referred to as "he/him" or "male", understand that's just transphobia. It may seem irrelevant to you, but, in real life, people care about what they're referred to as, and don't want to be misgendendered. I'm sure you would have a hard time finding a woman who wants to go around being referred to as a dude, and vice-versa.

Misgendering these characters is a disrespect to them, and a disrespect to actual trans people; I'm sure you can understand.

As I said before: if the consensus is that "Kikunojo's gender is unclear", we should be perfectly fine waiting for next chapters for more evidence. Kiku never said they were a male, not once in the series.

I think we can all agree on the following:


 * 1) People do not wish to be referred to the gender they are not;


 * 1) "Sessha" is not a gendered pronoun; otherwise, Chopper would not have been surprised that O-Kiku was called a male;


 * 1) Kikunojo had no reason to disguise herself in front of the Straw-Heart Alliance, so there is nothing to indicate her presentation is a disguise (but, sure, maybe that's just how she presents all the time, as a "crossdressing male");


 * 1) Kikunojo sees herself as a "woman at heart"; her status as a woman has never been disputed until the recent chapter, in spite of the fact that Sanji has swooned over her, and characters have claimed Kin'emon to be "popular with the girls" when Kiku hugged him; to which he didn't say "he is a guy, so...", instead, Kinemon replied saying he already has a wife, and Kiku is just a friend. (I might end up checking official translations/raws for this one);


 * 1) There is no reason we shouldn't keep the previous pronouns (female) or make the change to neutral alternatives (they/them), because a person's genitalia does not indicate their gender;


 * 1) Although I have said misgendering is disrespectful, this has not happened on purpose in our wikia (Ivankov and Inazuma, for instance, are "beyond male and female", just like the newkamas, so male and neutral pronouns are acceptable, even if a neutral one is best to use);

I think what I have stated above is not unreasonable, and would like to hear your opinions.
 * 1) This discussion is not political and not exclusive to the western world, as trans people exist in the entire world, and all across the political spectrum.

Thank you for your time. I hope we can reach a conclusion soon; maybe set up a poll for what the pronouns will be until a vivre card comes out.

20:04, July 6, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

I also agree with Cdavymatias that the Vivre Card will probably aid in a decision. However, that will be months from now and I think using "they/them/themselves" just sounds weird. Rather, there doesn't need to be usage of any pronouns at all in the article; the wiki can just use "Kikunojo." However, it will be work to adjust some sentences; for example (taking a quote from the page), "When he prepares for combat, he ties his hair into a ponytail with a ribbon," would have to be changed to "When preparing for combat, Kikunojo's hair is tied into a ponytail with a ribbon." This would sound much less weird than the "they" usage where it becomes "When they prepare for combat, they tie their hair into a ponytail with a ribbon."Nightmare Pirates (talk) 20:15, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Claiming a fictional character can get disrespected is not just unreasonable, it's delusional. You are both trying to push an irrelevant agenda onto a series set in a entirely fictional world. It does not belong here. We go by facts shown and facts stated on this wiki with some rare exceptions such as Monet being stated to be dead instead of unknown. What people's views on transgender be it in support of or against is 100% irrelevant here. SeaTerror (talk) 20:25, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Why don't we use Zombieland Saga as a recent example of what to do? For those unaware, it was an anime that aired just last year that featured a trans girl, Lily Hoshikawa. While the word "transgender" is never specifically used with her, it is made explicitly clear that Lily was designated male at birth, considers herself a woman, and is solely addressed as such. There is actually a similar situation when another character, Saki, laughs at her birth name, before saying "It doesn't matter what junk she's got, Lily is still Lily!" She considers herself a girl and is only treated as such. This is a relatively recent anime- why don't we treat the same for Kikunojo? And as mentioned before, there are many female characters in Japanese media that use masculine pronouns like ore, including our very own Big Mom. And to AlexPlayzz- honestly, that pisses off a lot of trans people and there's been entire edit wars on it. Nobody is happy when a canon trans woman is listed as a man. But if we truly cannot come to an agreement until more official stuff comes out, why not use they/them temporarily, or follow Nightmare Pirates' suggestion and avoid pronouns entirely? Miyushinohara94 (talk) 20:17, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with 180.190.195.212, Seaterror and Alex. Also using Big Mom's use of "Ore" as example is a poor choice since Oda already explain why she uses "Ore" in SBS Volume 85: "I've heard that both males and females sometimes called themselves "Ore" long ago. Even now, it is commonly used in some areas in Japan." Ore is also used by girls who are rude or tomboyish (Yoko) and these "pronouns" are not same as enlglish-speaker's pronouns. But sessha is very clearly male-exclusive unlike ore or watashi.Groosenat0r (talk) 20:19, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Okay Groonsenta0r then tell me how female samurais use “I”. I don’t even think there are female samurais.OishiLover75 (talk) 20:52, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Onna-bugeisha were part of the samurai class (hence the bu in geisha). May have used wachiki instead. Groosenat0r (talk) 21:06, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Okama are people who were born male but have adopted various female traits, ranging from simply crossdressing to actually changing their biological sex (From Okama article). Kikunojo is an okama. Cracker-Kun (talk) 21:27, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

While I do agree Miyushinohara to disregard the pronouns, it can be confusing in the phrase “he posed as a woman named O-Kiku”. I’m wondering what to do myself.OishiLover75 (talk) 21:40, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

As I said before, we don't need to use pronouns. That sentence could be changed to "After traveling 20 years forward in time, Kikunojo posed as a woman named O-Kiku and worked as a tea house poster girl in Okobore Town." However, "posed" is not the right word, its more like "assumed the identity of...." Nightmare Pirates (talk) 21:48, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Or even instead of saying “Kiku is a man with feminine appearance” we could say “Despite being born male, Kikunojo has a feminine appearance”, or just don’t mention man or male in general. It’s only describing the appearance, nothing to do with gender. The main issue going forward with the idea would be redundancy. OishiLover75 (talk) 22:02, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

There needs to be some mention of Kiku being a man (or originally, if that's what is preferred). But we don't need to blatantly state "Kiku is a man." It can be referred to in passing at the top of the article, that "Kikunojo used to be referred to as the most beautiful swordsman in all of Wano." As for appearance, I feel that man could be kept or otherwise the sentence starts off weird, but if using "man" is off limits, it can also be changed to "Kiku is a samurai that dresses as a female, and as such has a feminine appearance." etc... This leaves leeway for people to interpret what they want. It's a center ground between completely claiming Kiku is transgender and completely disregarding her/him saying she/he is a woman at heart. Now the category thing is debatable. Nightmare Pirates (talk) 22:25, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

Nightmare: I think your suggestion about removing pronouns is great and should suffice until evidence everyone finds conclusive is shown.

SeaTerror: I assume you, at least, agree with the previous points I made, then. Hopefully, you also agree that it is possible to disrespect people, regardless of gender.

I agree: we go by facts, and the fact is that Kikunojo has not once been referred to as a male, save in the latest chapter (948), and in the "Nine Red Scabbards" name. Kikunojo has also claimed to be a "woman at heart/soul".

I'm not trying to push any agendas; it's just reality. I'm not sure why you keep insisting it's an "agenda", as if it were a secret master plan with some evil purpose.

Besides, one of the reasons why people love fictional characters is because they can relate to their struggles. Trying to erase a character's identity is throwing the author's intents in a trash can and erasing people's identities in return (because, for some reason, a fictional character cannot represent them).

I am not trying to accuse you: but this has happened multiple times in different fandoms (see "Okamaitachi" in OPM: the OPM "Hero Encyclopedia" states the character as a female "by heart" (much like Kikunojo), and goes as far as to correct the male pronoun to a female one, but the fandom still thinks "the manga doesn't go into enough detail"). The wiki lists them as a male. This is something serious and I don't think such behaviour needs to be repeated; we know better nowadays.

Miyushinohara94: I think the Zombieland Saga is an amazing model for us to follow, although we are unable to do so because there is no consensus on whether Kikunojo's statement means "I see myself as a woman" or "I'm a guy but I dress up as a girl". It is, however, an amazing suggestion for when we finish the discussion.

Groosenat0r: I had a similar doubt, but it's kinda hard to find info on Onna-bugeisha. They were also of the "samurai class", but there were no females in the same position as male samurais (in the same way Kikunojo is a samurai), AFAIK, and there is no specific pronoun I have been able to find (for them). "Wachiki" is for oirans and etc., it seems reasonable to think "sessha" is for samurai.

Let me make myself clear: I'm not saying we need to say "Kiku is a trans woman" in the wiki. I'm not saying people used to call themselves transgender in Edo Period, feudal Japan, or anything of the sort. I am also not saying Kikunojo calls themselves a "trans woman".

But understand we are in real-life, and can use real-life terms in order to make things simpler to understand. There is no reason we should make a wiki with only specific terms that are *confirmed* to exist in One Piece. That is not "delusional", is it?

If Kiku truly is someone born with a penis and sees themselves as a woman, that's the textbook definition for trans woman. Which means, well, Kikunojo is a woman and should be listed as such. No need to make a "trans" or "okama" (Okama seems to have a different meaning in the OPverse, too, and I think we shouldn't use "Okama" or "Newkama" if it's not in the Vivre Card, or characters don't call themselves such) category, Kikunojo, in this case, would simply be a woman.

I don't even think it is necessary to make a "transgender" category, that's just overcomplicating things. I just want to make it clear: Kikunojo is highly probably a girl, just with a penis, and the wiki should reflect that: Kikunojo's gender and pronouns are female. If you think it's unclear, Nightmare has a great suggestion we can use until the Vivre Cards are out.

23:03, July 6, 2019 (UTC)Lumiruka (talk)

The pronoun problem comes with the phrase “He is very tall” or “To his friends”. It may be too redundant to keep on saying Kikunojo every sentence. How would you fix that? Don’t get me wrong, I like the idea. Also, I don’t even think Vivre Cards give gender. OishiLover75 (talk) 22:04, July 6, 2019 (UTC)

The original text from the Personality section with five instances of "he": "Although he is male, Kikunojo says he is a "woman at heart" and so tends to act effeminately. To his friends, Kikunojo is helpful and nurturing, as seen when he treated Zoro's injuries and tended to Tama when she was being healed of her poisoning. He is also very courageous, as he quickly went to rescue Tama after the latter was captured by the Beasts Pirates."

This can be edited to no pronouns and still won't sound too redundant: "Kikunojo has claimed to be a "woman at heart" and so tends to act effeminately. Towards friends, Kikunojo is helpful and nurturing, as seen when the samurai treated Zoro's injuries and tended to Tama when she was being healed of her poisoning. Furthermore, since Kikunojo quickly went to rescue Tama after the latter was captured by the Beasts Pirates, this also shows a courageous attitude towards troubling situations."

There are also other ways of editing the same passage to avoid using he. It will be tedious to edit everything and make it flow, but if some insist on not using "he," it can be done. Its not going to be redundant after combining sentences using commas and conjunctions, though. Nightmare Pirates (talk) 00:01, July 7, 2019 (UTC)