Talk:Haki/Kenbunshoku Haki

Kenbunshoku Haki & Users
There have been a few instances of people using Kenbunshoku Haki but they aren't listed on the wiki. It seems users of this ability are able to discern opponents' strengths. First we must go back to when Rayleigh gauged the strength of the animals on Rusukaina island.

http://mangapark.com/manga/one-piece/s3/c597/10

It is also described as the ability to feel ones presence more strongly.

http://mangapark.com/manga/one-piece/s3/c597/11

Blackbeard was the first to confrim this in two instances, where he guaged Luffy's Haki. So how could he not have Haki himself?

http://mangapark.com/manga/one-piece/s3/c234/16

http://mangapark.com/manga/one-piece/s3/c544/9

Bellamy's recent showings also confirm this. So why is he not listed as having Kenbunshoku Haki? Him going to Skypia also gives further evidence to this, where there are prevalent Mantra users.

http://mangapark.com/manga/one-piece/s3/c710/3

and also showed he precognitive ability when he detected Elizabello's king Punch.

http://mangapark.com/manga/one-piece/s3/c709/13

Smoker gauged Tashigi's Haki and compared it with Law.

http://mangapark.com/manga/one-piece/s3/c661/19

Dolfamingo has also shown use of this ability when he sensed Fujitora would intervine when Zoro was about to attack.

http://mangapark.com/manga/one-piece/s3/c730/5

http://mangapark.com/manga/one-piece/s3/c730/6

And finally an instance where Zoro used Kenbunshoku Haki was when he sensed Vergo's presence quoting he felt a strange aura.

http://mangapark.com/manga/one-piece/s3/c680/19

88movement (talk) 07:48, June 27, 2014 (UTC)

First off, mangareader doesn't work for the USA, so good luck getting people to find the pages themselves.

Blackbeard, yes.

Bellamy, no. Anyone who knew what Haki is could tell Luffy used it, and that was not precognition,

Tashigi, no. She's been shown to have Busoshoku, but not Kenbunshoku.

Doflamingo, maybe. It's unclear from just that example.

And Zoro is already listed as a user, so why bring him up again?

08:58, June 27, 2014 (UTC)

First example for Blackbeard is a bad translation. Second example could have meant anything. SeaTerror (talk) 09:09, June 27, 2014 (UTC)

I've changed all the links.

I didn't say Tashigi has Kenbunshoku, I said Smoker has it. Although you could argue a case for Tashigi having it when she deflected a cannonball without using her eyesight. Which can be seen here:

http://mangapark.com/manga/one-piece/s3/c652/14

http://mangapark.com/manga/one-piece/s3/c652/15

Bellamy hadn't seen Luffy use Haki prior, so you're point makes no sense. Him also going to Skypia is good evidence to him knowing how to use it.

Fair play on Doflamingo and Zoro.

88movement (talk) 14:22, June 27, 2014 (UTC)

Not taking a side here, but what's the translation issue with Blackbeard? He specifically refers to Luffy's haki in the Chapter 234 raw - it's the first mention of haki in the series. 18:15, June 27, 2014 (UTC)

That statement could just as easily be a comment about the kind of appearance he gives off. 18:44, June 27, 2014 (UTC)

Then let's just ask Klobis to check. If it is the same word, then it is not going to be coincidence.

21:09, June 27, 2014 (UTC)

The word haki was used? SeaTerror (talk) 22:24, June 27, 2014 (UTC)

In the translation linked above, the word chi is used, but that'll be because haki wasn't a thing then.

22:53, June 27, 2014 (UTC)

It's already mentioned and referenced on the Haki page, but here's the pic. Furigana read haki, kanji are the same as on the Haki page. 01:43, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

So can we agree that this is Blackbeard using Kenbunshoku Haki, or do we have to drag it out with a stupid poll?

09:28, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

I thought you were waiting for Klobis. SeaTerror (talk) 10:24, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

Zodiaque checked it.

10:59, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

Zodiaque is Klobis? SeaTerror (talk) 22:35, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

Stop being obtuse. Zodiaque checked the raw, and it is the same. Now can we come to an agreement?

22:44, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

Bump.

12:23, December 14, 2014 (UTC)

Fujitora should be here.

Marco 1907 (talk) 19:04, January 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * Show me an example of him using Kenbunshoku Haki and we'll add it. 02:12, January 29, 2015 (UTC)

If Zodiaque confirmed that Blackbeard has Haki, then we should add him to the users. 02:12, January 29, 2015 (UTC)

Bump. 22:53, February 3, 2015 (UTC)

Eh, no one are objecting so I went ahead and added him. 21:17, February 8, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, good job. Regarding the other characters, I think Bellamy and Smoker should also be added. Like BB, they've demonstrated the ability to gauge other people's Haki. Fujitora pretty much has to have CoO, and he has remarked about being able to sense the weather, so I think there's enough evidence to include him as well. Doflamingo and Tashigi aren't clear enough, though. 21:34, February 8, 2015 (UTC)

Ok, Teach is out of the discussion since he's confirmed. Tashigi, Bellamy and Doflamingo are the ones left to discus.

21:44, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

Nothing is confirmed. This is not One Piece Speculation Wiki. --Klobis (talk) 01:07, February 11, 2015 (UTC)

Smoker can be added to a general Haki category due to being a vice admiral but we don't know what type he has. All the others are speculation including Blackbeard. SeaTerror (talk) 02:04, February 11, 2015 (UTC)

Hey guys! I found a talk page I haven't touched yet? Amazing!

Anyways it seems like the main issue here is if people can sense the level of someone's Haki with K. Haki (new shorthand!). The whole BB thing seems to indicate you can for me. With some method, he sensed it in Luffy before Luffy ever demonstrated any part of the ability. Yeah, there is a slight chance that the ability to sense Haki in others doesn't come from K. Haki, but honestly, the chance is so slim that I would be willing to be wrong on this. We've had worse on the wiki for much longer before.

Bellamy saw Luffy's H. Haki in C block and is likely referring to that in his talk with Luffy. And no proof that he used K. Haki for detecting the King Punch.

Smoker would have known Tashigi's level of Haki because they train/work together. As far as I know, Law did not demonstrate his level of Haki in their fight. So Smoker is still possible.

Doffy saw Momo on the Sunny with his eyes. BUT if he says that he sees Momo in the present tense, that would imply K. Haki, past tense, nothing. As far as a the other thing, speculation to say it was Haki.

Zoro is implied to have it twice through "Aura sensing", once on Fishman island, and the instance linked here. Since Sanji is confirmed to have both forms as well, I think it's safe to say Zoro's got K. Haki

Anything else I need to say here? 05:37, February 11, 2015 (UTC)

Bellamy commented on Luffy's Haki in chapter 710, after B-Block. He had never seen Luffy use it. Also, he's now confirmed to have CoA, so yeah.

Other than that, you summed it up pretty well. 12:58, February 11, 2015 (UTC)

That is a terrible argument. His Haki was broadcast all over the world SeaTerror (talk) 17:39, February 11, 2015 (UTC)

"You're the one who's changed. Your Haki has exceeded all expectations." So you're saying that Bellamy wasn't referring to Luffy's current Haki here, but rather a random CoC outburst he saw two years ago on telly? 19:18, February 11, 2015 (UTC)

"Haoshoku Haki is a rare form of Haki that cannot be attained through training. Only one in a million people have this ability." SeaTerror (talk) 03:45, February 12, 2015 (UTC)

Your point? 14:28, February 12, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think I can facepalm hard enough. SeaTerror (talk) 19:25, February 12, 2015 (UTC)

Good for you. Now, does anyone have anything intelligent to add? 20:26, February 12, 2015 (UTC)

Bellamy could have seen Luffy use K-Haki to dodge Spartan's punch though. I'm gonna say no on Bellamy, can we talk about the others now?

I still think it's very safe to say Zoro's got it. Nevermind, he's already on it.

Smoker, I don't know.

Doffy, we'd need a confirmation on that statement if we want to say yes. 01:22, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Occam's razor, JSD. Assuming Bellamy even saw it... Was the dodge CoO? Luffy saw the punch coming, so reflexes would do. And even if, would a single CoO dodge be enough for someone to tell that Luffy's haki has "exceeded all expectations"? I guess I'm fine with leaving Bellamy out for now, though, if the majority really feels that it's debatable.

Which statement are you referring to regarding Dofla? 13:03, February 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * Inevitably, someone is going to ask what Occam's Razor means - in this instance, someone dodging does not mean they have trained their CoO haki. It just means they dodged. And I completely agree.


 * 13:08, February 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, that's also true. However, I was referring more to the fact that Bellamy having CoO is the theory with the fewest assumptions and thus we should just go with it instead of trying to come up with more complicated explanations. 13:33, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

We have very few easily identifiable uses of K Haki for dodging, but this is one of them. When it's depicted, the user usually barely moves to dodge, just like this case.

I'm talking about the case in the very first post here, when Doffy mentions Momo in 730. However, after checking all translations, only Mangapanda words it in a way vague enough for it to be Haki. The others are clear that he saw Momo with his eyes on the Sunny.

And Smoker? People MUST stop responding to only talk about one of these cases, or else we'll never close this talk page. And I really want to close this talk page. 14:23, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Smoker can just be put on a general Haki category since all vice admirals have it. Don't forget Blackbeard. SeaTerror (talk) 18:51, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Blackbeard was already discussed and put in the category. Bellamy I'm unconvinced, and Smoker must have it because he's a VA - but does that mean we get to put all VAs in there?

19:44, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Kenbunshoku_Haki_Users_Gallery?action=history Klobis disagreed and I'm pretty sure he would know Japanese better than Zodiaque. Also vice admirals can only be added to a general Haki category since we know they have Haki but not what type. SeaTerror (talk) 20:23, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

This talk page has agreed that there's enough evidence for BB to be shown to have it. If Klobis thinks otherwise, he needs to come here and say so with his own words. You don't speak for him, ST. If you want us to consider his argument, then you should go to Klobis' talk page and get him to comment here, ST. That's not our job, we're in agreement here.

If we consider there's enough for us to say BB has it, then by the same evidence, we should say Smoker has it.

We also need to add something to the page in general that states something like "though unconfirmed, it appears that K-Haki allows users to measure the level of an opponent's Haki." Sound good? 20:30, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

CoO Haki has been confirmed to be able to measure someone's strength, right? I think that's what's happening here, rather than just sensing someone's level of Haki.

20:32, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

That's impossible since Klobis never responds to talk pages and he definitely wouldn't respond to one from me. SeaTerror (talk) 20:45, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Then stop claiming to talk for him. It's frankly pretty arrogant.

21:01, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

I never did though. SeaTerror (talk) 21:06, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

"Klobis disagreed and I'm pretty sure he would know Japanese better than Zodiaque"

That's speaking for him. IF he disagrees, let him come here and disagree himself.

21:07, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

No it isn't. I was showing his edits. Besides that's a problem anyway since he never responds and ignores talk page comments therefore he would never come here to comment. SeaTerror (talk) 21:12, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

He already has posted here. And surprisingly, you two agree on this issue, are you really so stubborn you can't ask him to post on a discussion where you agree with him? 21:16, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

So ignoring Klobis until he decides to post and ST until he says anything relevant, does anyone have reasons not to include Smoker and Bellamy as Kenbunshoku Haki users?

21:18, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

"That's impossible since Klobis never responds to talk pages and he definitely wouldn't respond to one from me." SeaTerror (talk) 21:20, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

I've had no problems with Klobis not responding to requests to post on talk pages. He's always posted from what I've seen, and not just for my requests, but those of other users too.

I still take issue with Bellamy too, for the reasons I stated above. 21:24, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Alright, Bellamy to one side for the moment so we can get the other one out of the way: should we put Smoker in this category or not? I personally think yes, but only because he's a VA, and that reasoning would lead to every VA getting put in here.

21:26, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

If you read his talk page you would see him ignoring comments from me especially which is why I said he wouldn't respond to one from me. SeaTerror (talk) 21:34, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

ST, I know this may be hard, but for the love of God shut up about Klobis and discuss the topic at hand.

21:36, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Wait, why would we put every VA on here? Smoker having K-Haki doesn't lead to some big revelation that all of them have it. Different people have different skill levels with Haki types. All that we know about VAs is that they have at least one kind of Haki that they can use. 21:39, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

It's not too big an assumption to say that they have some proficiency with both types of Haki. It's not like Coby who accidentally got it; these are people who have trained hard to get the abilities they have.

21:42, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

I would say that it is a very big assumption, actually. We can't base this kind of thing on a one-off statement from only one VA. 21:47, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Well, I'll leave that discussion for another time, but I'm not forgetting it. So - Smoker. Kenbunshoku Haki or not? I think there's enough evidence.

21:50, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

I'll take the utter lack of response to be a unanimous agreement then.

17:23, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

Are we done here? Does anyone want to argue another character to be added to the template? 21:47, February 21, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think Smoker should be counted in the list. 22:05, February 21, 2015 (UTC)

Well, let's not add him then. I really don't care about this anymore. 17:50, March 4, 2015 (UTC)

Look at this page. Rayleigh uses Haki to measure the strength of the creatures on the island. I'm going to say that K Haki can measure strength, including Haki. I'm going to add Smoker. And I'm going to close this discussion now. 02:19, March 6, 2015 (UTC)

some other topic
"Bellamy doesn't have Haki"

As I said people with Haki are able to discern it.

88movement (talk) 10:07, December 13, 2014 (UTC)

Blackbeard?
Where does it say Blackbeard has Kenbunshoku Haki? GenkiMan (talk) 21:11, February 12, 2015 (UTC)

To my knowledge that was never stated anywhere. Not sure what the editor's reasoning behind it is, but it looks like some "edit war" happened to keep it from changing back. Reeves92 (talk) 00:13, February 13, 2015 (UTC)

If only you guys have read the rest of the talk page. 00:57, February 13, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, how dare us. My bad though, I understand your reasoning to list Blackbeard in it. Reeves92 (talk) 09:59, February 14, 2015 (UTC)


 * Sorry for being rude in my previous statement. Anyway, if you want to contest Blackbeard being listed as having Kenbunshoku Haki, you're fully welcome to bring it up in the above discussion. 01:28, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Fujitora?
He has Kenbunshoku haki right? I mean how else can he sense people arround him and do so many of the things he states? Right down to his very first appareance he senses a static soundless Zoro and in several other occasions he seems to always know who is there.

Grievous67 (talk) 16:29, July 30, 2015 (UTC)

The reason why we've left it off is because we don't know where the line between haki and heightened senses due to being blind is. 16:40, July 30, 2015 (UTC)

Yes but I think being blind doesn't allow you to recognize somebody so easily. Fujitora can understand who is in the room by simply him being there.

Grievous67 (talk) 20:15, July 30, 2015 (UTC)

Again, that can also be explained by heightened touch, hearing, and smell. We'll be going in circles if you keep this up, so drop it until we have something solid. 20:31, July 30, 2015 (UTC)

Telepathy
Kenbunshoku has a form of limited telepathy right? I mean Enel could read minds (or rather could overhear conversations by boosting the power with his fruit), and judging by chapter 799, Fujitora also has demonstrated that skill. This article states that Enel was the strongest in this ability, but it seems there's a new contender. I'm not saying that needs to be in the article, but I think that mind reading can be officially added to the suite of powers this grants. It may also tie in to Roger's ability to hear the voice of all things though I know that's speculative.Rayfire (talk) 02:12, September 4, 2015 (UTC)

New picture
I was thinking, wouldn't a picture like this be better to display this power instead of Luffy dodging something? The image show exactly the power in use, while all instance of people "dodging" with haki aren't visually that much different then dodging with reflexes.

For those of us who can't see content on MangaFox, please tell us what the image is. 04:22, November 6, 2015 (UTC)

Does this site works? In chapter 799 there are some panels where Issho "see" and "hear" the people of Dressrosa. I thought that would be a good display of this kind of haki. Maybe the anime version will be better, idk, but we are not there yet...

I agree with levi, let's use the bottom right panel as the infobox. We should still keep the GIF as an example of using the ability to dodge though. 03:57, November 27, 2015 (UTC)

Agree 04:43, November 30, 2015 (UTC)

Ageed as well. 19:44, January 18, 2016 (UTC)

Or we can use this image for the infobox though the image is already used on the article. 10:18, January 26, 2016 (UTC)

Maybe let's wait the anime to see how it will portrait that scene. That and Usopp's one are equivalent hence we should probably keep only one.

The panel that has Issho looking at the aura people would fit the best I think, as that would actually show the CoO user himself and the way he sees the world through it.

The Usopp one doesn't really work as an infobox, in my opinion, as it lacks context. It really needs that caption to tell us that the image is showing how an user views others through CoO. KingCannon (talk) 03:17, January 30, 2016 (UTC)

2 + 2 = 4. An image on an article about Haki would obviously be about Haki. SeaTerror (talk) 11:12, January 30, 2016 (UTC)

@ST Your point is? 11:19, January 30, 2016 (UTC)

"The Usopp one doesn't really work as an infobox, in my opinion, as it lacks context." SeaTerror (talk) 20:28, January 30, 2016 (UTC)

Then, as Levi suggested, let's wait and see how the anime will depict Fujitora's kenbunshoku haki. 06:20, February 1, 2016 (UTC)

Let's do that. inactive for now. 16:52, February 22, 2016 (UTC)

Corresponding anime image has been added. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 23:56, June 5, 2016 (UTC)

Carrot
Didn't Carrot showed awareness haki in chapter 831?  Judge Magister Pyarox  21:01, June 30, 2016 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that's enough evidence; rabbits have better senses of sight, smell, and hearing than humans do, and Carrot has demonstrated quick reaction speeds in her fight with Zoro. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 23:00, June 30, 2016 (UTC)

Mantra
I'd guess that the kanji for Mantora (心綱) are meant to convey the meaning "principle of mind", rather than "mind rope". Troyp (talk) 23:45, December 30, 2016 (UTC)