Talk:Super-Human Speed

Important Notice
Due to disputes, from this point onwards, all further characters that editors wish to add must be discussed and PLEASE provide manga evidence. Anyone who adds without folks agreeing its fine on this discussion page will properly be removed until further discussion. That also means a link to a copy of the related pages that prove your "right" must also be put up, don't just tell us its there, provide the evidence otherwise we can't tell you what our overall intrepetation of the artwork is. This category has become just plain stupid with people insisting on adding things to the page with little or no satisfactory evidence. And even when things are thrown out, they still stick by their notin they are correct.

If push comes to shove, we may see both this and the strength pages disappear as while they were set up with good faith, they have become nothing but a constant nightmare to work with because of everyone constnatly arguing over what has been defined quite clearly as the ONLY set of rules that we know. This means everything is VERY limited, so despite a lot of peoples' "evidence" they often have to be thrown out for various reasons. One-Winged Hawk 21:05, October 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry folks, but due to editors just ignhoring the request, this page is now in discussion to be deleted along with its sister page "super human strength". In the meantime Forum:Super Speed/Strength to discuss these pages. One-Winged Hawk 21:40, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

Conditions
I got ahead of myself when I allowed Sanji and Brook to join this list...

... Okay the reason for anyone being classified as "Super Human Speed" is if:


 * 1) They know any Soru techniques
 * 2) Their DF allows it - so far only two have which is Enel's and Luffy's. Enel's becase he could move at the speed of light thanks to the lightning bit and Luffy thanks to Gear 2.
 * 3) Anyone who has been noted for moving faster then the eye can follow.

The conditions to be on the list are a lot less if you will note... And Sanji, Brook and everyone else in the series has yet to make it. Okay, Brook can move his legs fast, yes, but his progression over distance is still not faster then the eye can follow. Zoro arguably could be, but he still isn't moving his actualy body faster then the eye can follow... Just parts of him to create Asura. Sanji has NOT displayed any arguable signs of Superspeed. One-Winged Hawk 17:16, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Someone added Kizaru, yep, that counts there is no mistake on that one. I just added Batholomew Kuma since his shockwave (paw paw whatever) moves him fast too. --One-Winged Hawk 08:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * But what about the numerous times in which Sanji was able evade of face attacks head-on (i.e. like when he evaded Absalom's dead man's hands while carrying Nami and traversing quickly behind their attacker) is htat not a form of super-human speed?


 * The conditions are strict with it. Unless it breaks that limit which Soru, Shakushi, Gear Second and those DFs have it doesn't count. Theres fast, then theres Super fast. I can't explain it any other way besides that. It goes back to the fav. example I use with Brook; he is fast but not fast enough. The only other way we can change it is if Oda states a technique is on par with another listed technique (like Kuro's move is on par with Soru). :-/


 * BTW you didn't sign your post with "~" . Ah... I get fed up with saying that. --92.232.91.192 11:23, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Well I just watched movie 9 last night, and I would say Wapol's brother, Mussuru, should be on this list as he fits into category 3. He was able to move (almost teleport) from beside his brother on the ground to Luffy who was standing on the roof of the castle. If everyone approves I'll put him on the list. 203.94.188.15 02:20, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Not seen the movie. But its more then just being able to do that. Make sure you understand the conditions if you decide to add, the conditions are fragile. --One-Winged Hawk 07:24, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Here's a link in which Mushuuru's speed can be seen during his fight with Luffy. Two things about him I must say. 1) It's unbelievable that he's related to Wapol. 2) His concept gives the same vibe as Coola, Freeza's older brother, from Dragon Ball Z. Mugiwara Franky 07:49, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I had another look. Upon second review I noticed that he only uses this "teleportation" ability once and the rest of the time it's easy to follow him. So it's probably not worth mentioning. 203.94.188.15 23:19, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

What about Garp? He passed the Straw Hats in Water 7 at a blur just to get to Luffy. --Yatanogarasu 16:38, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The known methods are there already, no one else can be entered until more info comes up. One-Winged Hawk 23:45, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Why is Oars on the list? Could someone cite a chapter or something? While I don't fully remember everything that happened in the fight the Oars article itself does not mention anything about super speed. While I don't remember any super speed one thing that makes me doubt that he could move super fast was it said it was Luffy's shadow based. Why would Luffy's shadow giving him the ability to use Luffy's version of Soru if Luffy needs the Gomu Gomu no Mi and Gear Second to pull it off? If he can move super fast someone should probably update the Oars article with it. Immolo 23:14, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

Kuro's Shakushi
Soru was identified as being "Super human speed" and Kuro's Shakushi identified as being roughly the same speed, the difference was literally the training to be able to identify ones own movements in which Shkushi doesn't include. Therefore only Shakushi has been identified to be traveling the same speed of Super human speed the other technique of Kuro's, though fast is like Brook; fast but not fast enough to be superhuman speed. --One-Winged Hawk 08:56, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Regarding Kuro's super-human speed technique, despite people calling it "Shakushi", his technique is actually called "Nuki Ashi" (Stealth Foot). "Shakushi" is the technique for him to utilize his super speed to kill his enemies, so please don't list that as his super-human speed technique. --Yatanogarasu 22:49, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You said it yourself;


 * "Shakushi" is the technique for him to utilize his super speed 


 * Oda also named THIS as the super human speed, not the attack or whatever. One-Winged Hawk 08:08, 1 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Vol.42 Chapter 401, Fan question: Which is faster, Kuro's Shakushi or CP9's Soru?


 * Here is the answer


 * Wait... Why hasn't that SBS question made it onto Kuro's page nor this one??? One-Winged Hawk 08:12, 1 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay... Had to change it on the Soru bit of CP9's technique list page. Its corrected back to Shakushi on that page too.


 * Yatanogarasu, please double check you are correct before you edit, especially when you end up making silly mistakes like this (telling us off while at the same time admitting the technique is the one he needs for Super Speed). If everyone alters it back it has to be for a reason, if we're making a mistake, check up on it first and tell us all off then if you are indeed correct. I note you also altered it on the CP9's technique page right? If you had noted on that page too there is a reference linking to an SBS where the Shakushi was mentioned yet you didn't check up on it then?


 * If you don't know where to find the SBS answers, why didn't you ask?


 * If you did know where to find them, why didn't you look it up?


 * Still now we've had a hiccup and to save someone's else embarrassment, I'll get the references on the page today.


 * note: why didn't the others editing also add references? Just because one forgets doesn't mean we all need to forget! Yatanogarasu isn't solely the one to blame here, I'm part of them blame (started the page with references back when we were just setting up pages to have pages) along with others who edited the page after me. Somewhere along the line, a reference or two should have been added, yet none were? One-Winged Hawk 08:44, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Jinbei
Jinbei managed to catch Luffy in Gear Second mode (officially classified as Super Human Speed) in Chapter 544 page 7. Should we classify Jinbei as having Super Human Speed? Yatanogarasu 17:49, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * ITs is equal speed or calculated interception? One-Winged Hawk 10:46, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

Needles
I think needles needs to be on this list. Several times he appears to move faster than the eye can follow, once when teleporting beside Luffy to put his claw to his throat, and once towards the end when approaching combat with Shiraiya. In the latter, he makes several rapid movements side to side without appearing to pass the intervening space. The biggest limitation I noticed is that he only has access to such speed when closing into combat. In actual hand to hand fights he is merely fast, not superhumanly so. 64.188.169.226 13:50, February 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree that he should be mentioned. El Chupacabra 15:42, February 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Disagree, he is filler and won't ever be denyied or confirmed by Oda, nor was details of super speed even worked out at the time. A tricky position to be in, better off and safe then sorry. One-Winged Hawk 16:03, February 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * The fact that he's filer doesn't mean that he can't have super-human speed. We could mention him in the trivia section. El Chupacabra 16:07, February 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * How about the "finer details" not refined then? You didn't take note of that. Its like the pre-explaination logia from the second movie, is she weak because of her power or weak because Oda hadn't let the greater Devil Fruit knowledge let out? One-Winged Hawk 16:10, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Pell
When pell carried the bomb out of the city he had 5 seconds to do it... which means he traveled at least 1440km/h. I just wanted to know if anyone had anything against me adding him Biropg 18:24, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Killer
On the page of the Supernovas, in the end, it is said that Killer has super human speed. I disagree with that, however someone should add him on this page or remove that sentence. --Meganoide 22:56, August 8, 2010 (UTC)

Mihawk
Should we put Mihawk in the list. In a new category named "Raw". What I mean is that he can follow Luffy in Gear 2nd (Super-Human Speed) and even strike him succesfully almost with no effort.--KishinZoro177 04:12, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Super-Human Speed
Right. A LOT of people here seem to not understand the concept of Super-Human Speed. Super-Human Speed is anything above peak human speed, Usain Bolt as of now stands at the top of speed possible for a human to achieve putting him at the peak human mark. Let's make something clear. Someone who has not achieved Super-Human Speed cannot react to bullets and cannonballs. Something Zoro and Sanji do regularly, yes, I understand that the One Piece era uses musket balls. But musket balls are still far above speeds that a regular human can react to. To deflect a bullet from a distance of a meter or less you need Super-Human Speed, that much isn't up for debate. Base Luffy, Zoro and Sanji were able to catch CP9 members mid Soru and adjust their limbs/weapons accordingly to intercept their movements. Without Super-Human Speeds THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE. Your arms have to be capable of moving at, at least the speed of their Soru movements to prevent them from hitting you.

Next, Zoro has been displaying Super-Human Speed ever since the Whiskey Peak Arc. He was able to disappear from the view of over 100 people from a distance of 30 meters or more (refer to Chapter 107 Page 14), hell even before then. If you didn't already know, average human reaction time is 0.1 seconds. For Zoro to have done that HE IS WELL ABOVE average human speeds, so much so that he can be considered Super-Human Speed. He was reacting to cannonballs and bullets left and right, he is Super-Human. Anything other than that isn't acceptable.

The whole page is incorrect by common sense standards. Humans can't react to bullets from even 50 meters away. Zoro can do it from distances 1 meter or less, he's approaching hypersonic speeds if you calculate his speed mathematically.

Sanji was moving so fast compared to Kalifa that she, a person classified here as "Super-Human" commented that he was fast, even faster than her (refer to Chapter 403 Page 6 for this one). Before she could extend her own leg to his torso, his leg was in her face, he can move his limbs faster than she can, she is classified as Super-Human, Sanji is not. Can anyone explain this nonsense in detail? Please, because right now none of this makes the slightest bit of sense.

Blueno against a Base Luffy commented that Luffy could match his Soru speed perfectly, extra emphasis on the word perfectly (refer to Chapter 387 Page 15). Before Blueno could cross a fair distance Luffy was already in his face and had already slammed his face into the ground. Luffy moved himself faster than Blueno could (refer to Chapter 383 Page 12 and check this out for yourself).

What's even worse is that people are actually looking for characters to say "HURR DURR he's moving at speeds greater than an average human" on every single occasion to confirm Super-Human Speeds. Is this not painfully apparent by seeing the characters move themselves? Well? Every speedy character above a CP9 member can be classified in the Super-Human Speed range. Doflamingo was moving at speeds so fast in the Marineford War that he was able to jump above Oars Jr.'s head, a renown New World captain, and sever his leg before he even knew he was hit. Whitebeard whilst severely injured could stop Kizaru mid light movement and creep up on Sakazuki and smack him right in the face before he could react. Not Super-Human my back foot. Of course they are. 88movement 13:07, August 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * The problem is that with such criteria, 90% of the characters shall be put in Super-Human_Strength or Super-Human_Strength. Hence these pages are not very useful. Especially when you have aberation like Miss Monday being categorized in Super-Human Strength when it is probably one of the weakest character of One Piece... The main problem is that we are confronting a level games issue. The stronger the heroes become, the stronger are their enemies. And the characters of the beginning who looked strong at that time are ridiculously weak compared to the average marineford warrior. Kdom 13:45, August 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't agree to say that super-human speed is either Devil Fruit related or the result of a special technique. Garp demonstrated super-human speed at Water 7, Aokiji when he stopped the tsunami, Akainu when he was chasing Luffy. Also, in the last anime episode, Crocodile clearly stated that Jozu had an incredible speed and that he did not know how he could avoid his attacks because of that. That's also why Aokiji ended up punched and bleeding even though he possesses Haki. LordRayleigh 23:30, October 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay... Tomorrow I put up a notice that it is no longer possible to put up a individual on the page without further support from other editors. This is just getting silly. No matter how fine the line is established for the page, people are still cribbing on whether or not the characters are in here. The criteria is pretty tight, yet still there are folks insisting on making it as general as super strength. One-Winged Hawk 23:35, October 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Also, please guys, don't use the anime as a source for this! The anime has all sorts of tricks and traps to make something look impressive - doesn't mean its "true" to the book. One-Winged Hawk 23:36, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

Garp
I believe Garp has Super-human Speed, since he could pass though all the Straw Hats Pirates and go straight to Luffy.Zero62422002 23:34, October 1, 2010 (UTC)

Brook
The reason I added Brook is because of his ability to run across water which is possible because of his lightweight body so please do not remove it without discussing your reasons on my talk page. Master Shannara (talk) October 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * It has already been discussed why Brook doesn't fit in this category. Unless he shows a clear use of Super-Human Speed that fits the criteria of the article he shouldn't be included! MasterDeva 17:58, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

He has already been listed as a Super-Human Speed user in the category and two articles. Master Shannara (talk) October 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Because people were careless, that doesn't prove anything. There is no proof as of YET that he belongs in this category! MasterDeva 18:15, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

At the top of this page it states someone can only qualify for Super-Human Speed if they at least one of three conditions; they can use a technique such as Soru, their devil fruit gives them access to this ability, or they can move faster than the eye can follow. In Brook's case, he meets the third and to a lesser extent, the second condition. Master Shannara (talk) October 3, 2010


 * Brook can't use Soru or any similar technique of that kind, his Devil Fruit grants him a second life which has nothing to do with speed! It hasn't been noted (by another character) that he moves at a speed that is difficult to follow (as far as I can recall at this moment). If you have any piece of proof stating the opposite then please write here the no. of chapter that mentions it and the exact phrase. Until then I ask you kindly to wait until this argument is resolved before adding that piece of info back. Thanks for your understanding. MasterDeva 18:46, October 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Zoro, Brook, Sanji and Usopp are all part of the large group of characters that are "fast but not fast enough". While its true its hard to follow him, its the ability to NOT be seen because of speed that defines it, thus Brook actually fails the 3 criteria. Look at the "founder" of this group Kuro again, then at Zoro, and of each of the fruits that have confined to this and look at Brook again. He is far from them. One-Winged Hawk 19:17, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

Ch. 443; pg. 18 and later ch. 493-494; pg. 17-18, pg. 02. Brook was "running on top of the ocean", moving at speeds that made the illusion that Brook had many legs instead of two. This is possible mainly because of the Yomi Yomi no Mi. Master Shannara (talk) October 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes nut HE isn't moving fast overall, this is the same argument as with Zoro and his big technique, an illusion is also not solid proof anyway in either case may be. Also I somewhat discredit your overall since you also tried to add Dalton... Erm... No... One-Winged Hawk 20:11, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

The fact of the matter isn't that he is moving fast overall but moving fast enough. When I say Illusion, I mean that his legs become a blur which is solid despite its look. As for discrediting me because of Dalton, I don't believe that is valid reason when Dalton's listing as a Super-Human Speed user is perfectly legitimate. Master Shannara (talk) October 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * The fact still remains is that you can still see Brook moving despite the rabid movement of his legs, his body isn't moving that fast overall as these guys do on this page. Its actually the same as Zoro with Asura, only he is moving his arms. Running technique varies per person, but the actual result is different. And no, no, no, no, no, no... Dalton cannot move THAT fast as there is no evidence within the manga yet. Though feel free to correct me with actual manga evidence (note; I do not count anime in this). One-Winged Hawk 20:29, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

Brook can run across water because his body is light and doesn't sink fast enough, he can also jump very high because of it too. Other characters too have displayed also that their legs move as a blur went they are running but they haven't included here! You are mistaking the light weight properties of Brook's body for something else. MasterDeva 20:43, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

Well I agree with Master Shannara as he has already given two sources, each of which are from the manga. Besides, It already shows a manga source for Dalton's speed in the article. Atrulean Starkiller (talk) October 3, 2010 (UTC).


 * The facts are that Master Shannara has failed to provide sources that meet the aforementioned criteria above. He is just restating what he has said before, even though people are telling him that they need more sources than these to match the article's criteria! MasterDeva 20:50, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

if in order to be qualified for super-human speed, the whole body must be able to move at such speed then may I point out that when Brook uses his three-verse humming: arrow-notch slash, his arm moves at a speed where the attack is invisible which it shows in Ch. 454; pg.18-19. Master Shannara (talk) October 3, 2010


 * A moment ago you wrote "the whole body must move at such speed" and later you wrote this, "his arm moves at a speed where the attack is invisible", aren't you are contradicting yourself mate? You need a source that shows him move his whole body and not just his body parts ! MasterDeva 21:06, October 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Furthermore the example of attack you've listed bears resemblance with Zoro's Shishi Sonson technique which, likewise, isn't classified as Super-Human speed! MasterDeva 21:19, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

The reason why his arms or legs can't be seen is because individually they are lighter than the total weight of his body. I know that should be obvious, but as it's been said before, it has to be the whole body that moves at blinding speed. Brook doesn't have super-human speed, he is just light-weight. By that logic we should list anyone who has had an attack depicted as a blur under the category. You're fighting a losing battle here, there is no solid proof that Brook fits any of the three categories.DancePowderer 21:41, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

Look guys, the point I'm trying to make is that while normally, Brook would be considered being just fast like Sanji, Ussop, or Zoro, his light body makes him an exception in that it lets him move much faster than they could. Master Shannara (talk) October 3, 2010


 * And yet his speed does not fall under the Super-Human criteria! Even though it could be argued that he is faster than Zoro or Sanji it doesn't have anything to do with him being a SHS user! Moreover you have shown great impoliteness and bad manners by adding Brook back to the page!! It's the same as saying f@#$ y%# to all of us and doing as you please regardless of what other editors tell you.... MasterDeva 21:59, October 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay, normally running on the ball of your foot will make a runner faster then someone else on their ankles right? However, this isn't completely true all the time, thus its just a method of running and not a certainty of running fast. Brook running style is just that, a method of running on water. He moves the legs very fast to keep him on the surface because if he stops he sinks and as a Devil Fruit user thats fatal. HOWEVER, he runs pretty fast overall, but just not that fast. The only times we've seen him move up to this speed was with aid of another means besides his only means (i.e. falling from great height). I must admit, I've never had to explain this in as much depth and for so long to someone. Previously the folks adding to the page got it pretty quick with a explanation only half as much as the one I'm trying to give here I must admit, I'm too tired to keep arguing over this issue right now as well, its pretty much the middle of the night for me... I explain things better when I'm not tired. One-Winged Hawk 22:59, October 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay, I removed the category add for the group. I'm tempted to just put up a notice on the top of the page of this and category a note that no editor can add a new "user" to the list until its been established they are. I'm sick of people who just put it on any page. Sanji... Zoro... Jinbei... Brook especially. Oh and I went over Dalton a short while ago, unfortunately Wapol wasn't expecting Dalton to do what he did, its not so much moving fast... Its Wapol being somewhat slow on reaction. The anime poorly conveys the scene as its true essence was. One-Winged Hawk 23:08, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

You keep on speaking about methods of running but there are also different methods of attaining super-human speed; devil fruit powers in Enel's case, or special techniques in Luffy's case. As I have pointed out, Brook performs cutting techniques with imperceptible movement which is essentially what speed is. Furthermore, Brook can run across water which is something even SPS users so far can't do. Master Shannara (talk) October 4, 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter if he hasn't moved his entire body at that level of speed when what's really important is that he has moved at that level of speed. I know that I have already repeated this and I know that his swordplay can be compared to Zoro's special cutting techniques but one fact that cannot be disputed is Brook's ability to run on water. It may be possible because of his body but the fact remains that he could move fast enough to run on water without submerging and drowning. I apologize if you believe I have been abrasive and rude. However, I stand by what I believe to be fact; Brook's speed is superhuman. Master Shannara (talk) October 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Until you can provide additional sources that support this Brook will not be included in the article! Something common that every SHS user on this list has displayed so far is that can move their entire body in that speed, all of them. Until now Brook has not displayed that quality and till he actually does he remains unconfirmed. You are free to believe what you want to believe but the facts are that as of yet he doesn't meet any of the criteria. MasterDeva 01:05, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

I already have given two examples of the most reliable source possible. The truth is that you are holding on to a very small technicality that has very little to no merit. Master Shannara (talk) October 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Unless you have new references to add to the conversation don't bother to extent this any further I mean it now, seriously! I have added references for every character in the list that has displayed Super-Human Speed and all "just happen" to perfectly follow the above criteria, what more can I say... The truth is that you sir are headstrong and refuse to listen to what other people are saying to you! You can't just add two examples from the manga without checking first the article's requirements to see if they fit, "...you are holding on to a very small technicality that has very little to no merit" and refuse to accept it yourself! MasterDeva 02:31, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

This isn't over. Master Shannara (talk) October 4, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is. Until solid evidence that COMPLETELY fits the criteria surfaces, this discussion is closed, and that is final.DancePowderer 02:46, October 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * All he needs to do is move from point A to point B without being seen and his confirmed that speed. One-Winged Hawk 07:19, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

Edit War
I've put a stop to the edit war by putting up a notice on the top of the page with furtehr instructions to this page. The situation is getting silly and I think its time we just flat out said "no" to just adding it. As for the record, EXACTLY what is put up on the page is the conditions for this category, nothign else can be added. Luffy made his own version of Soru, Soru and Kuro's technique were identified. The devil fruits were physically capable of doing it and we saw it in action. Anything else, regardless of whats currently up, just doesn't qualify and we've had nothing from Oda on it.

I'm quite sick of this page and I regret I made it in the first page to house this kind of information at this point. Until this argument here, the page was doing semi-well. But now... I may just put it up for deletion to save further arguments. One-Winged Hawk 21:11, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

Dalton
Small note on Dalton; the speed of a bison is not SOLID evidence when the average humans runs at a fraction and all of the group is human. The fact the speed exists implies that you can't put that into the "fact dish" here for the entry. One-Winged Hawk 21:26, October 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Going to have to agree about the Dalton thing. Zoan Devil Fruits naturally increase the physical capabilities such as speed and strength. However, to what extent for each Zoan user is a bit vague. Dalton can run faster thanks to turning into a bison but classifying whether it is superhuman or not is a real question. In the real world, running as fast as a bison is pretty much superhuman. In One Piece however, there are kinda people who can run faster than a bison but are considered very regular.Mugiwara Franky 03:27, October 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * The problem is also that even be faster then normal still puts you on an unexpected level, those normal speed are not expecting anyone that fast. The defination is literally suppose to be "fast enough to move in a blink of the eye" basically and even then, we all need to see the artwork before we can definately confirm this.  And even still, I'm somewhat reluctant, since its not until CP9 this level of expertise was confirmed.  Before that, the only person for sure is Kuro, remember the model for this is suro and Shakushi specifically though Luffy's Gear 2nd was meant to emulate Soru thus its counted in here too, and notably no one has questioned Dalton's move in a SBS.  The way the whole implies also is that those few moves literally are the defining line.  One-Winged Hawk 07:25, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

The facts still remain the same, the manga clearly depicts Dalton moving fast enough to leave afterimages. Unless the conditions dictate that even that isn't counted, there really isn't any point in continuing this debate. Master Shannara (talk) October 9, 2010 (UTC)

This is the fabled afterimage that Dalton does that's being discussed. Now while it does look fast what with the afterimages, it seems more like an effect like how Luffy seemingly multiplies his hands when performing his faster techniques. I don't know, on one hand its really fast. On the other, it's not super fast as Soru per say. Super-human speed is really hard to define with cases like this.Mugiwara Franky 13:53, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

The point isn't if it is as fast soru (after all, Luffy's soru is inferior to Kizaru's speed of light) but if it meets any of the required conditions which it does. I'm not denying that it has some similarity to Luffy's regular Gatling attack but the thing is Dalton's entire body is moving at that speed, thus making it impossible to follow his movements. Master Shannara (talk) October 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually with the conditions set by the article "travel faster then the average eye can follow (to the point of seeming as if the user disappeared)", he apparently doesn't to a point. He moved very fast but he didn't exactly moved so fast that he practically disappeared. From gathered from the scene, it seemed that he was moving fast but not so fast that his movements couldn't be followed.Mugiwara Franky 16:52, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

If you look at the top of the discussion page, you will see that the third condition for SHS only says "travel faster than the eye can follow". It never mentioned anything about disappearing. Dalton's status is credible because his afterimages make it impossible to track his movements. As far as I and mostly anyone else is concerned, this debate was over long before it started and you are simply dragging it out. Master Shannara (talk) October 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually based on several comments on the matter and similar issues, it appears that its the opposite. True the conditions set at the very top says "travel faster than the eye can follow", accompanying comments afterward seem to have made a point that disappearing is a factor. Also, the "faster than the eye can follow" condition for Dalton is debatable. From what I gather from the scene, he is indeed moving very fast and does leave afterimages, but it seems like his main body can at least be followed. His main body seems to moving to moving in one direction.


 * As for the debate being over before it started, it was not. The reason why the discussion was created in the first place was because there was a debate. While one person can say there was no debate no to begin with, that only depends on their opinion and not the opinions of the community.


 * Based arguments like this however, I'm personally seeing more how a deletion of the page is more preferable. The article is becoming too opinion centric especially when defining what Super-human speed is.Mugiwara Franky 04:18, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

This debate was first started by a few members who chose to discredit Dalton despite the evidence that clearly points him as being faster than mere fast runners like Brook, Sanji, and Zoro. Master Shannara (talk) October 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * You keep saying evidence yet you didn't even provide it properly prior to me uploading the pic. As far as I can tell, you kept saying about the afterimages yet you didn't even provide a link or anything to help others see what exactly it is you were talking about. Even with the pic though, it is still debatable. Dalton is moving fast in the pic but it seems rather clear that his movement can be followed. He looks like he is moving to one side. In fact, it seems more like fast movement rather than super-human fast movement.Mugiwara Franky 04:56, October 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * The afterimage effect, is identical to Brook's legs, Zoro's multi-arms. Etc.  Super human speed can move from point A to point B without being followed, that has been the underlining rule (and finally someone uploaded it confirming why I threw it out previously), while the illusion means they are not disappearing completely.  Seriously, the model for this is Soru, Shakushi and Gear 2. I should really list these things, MF can we give this page one last chance to survive, but this time, I'd like a list of those with notable speeds, thus able to create these illusions but are not yet super fast. One-Winged Hawk 19:39, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

Bein' hit at speed
If you can time a punch right, even a fast person by be hit by a slow one. Lets compare to Haki, one of the techniques allows users to dodge attacks - but that isn't 100% for sure they'll actually dodge the attack. In gear 2nd, Luffy got Sandersonia, who has the ability to use Haki to dodge. Its pretty much just the reverse of super speed, the use can predict moves but might be too slow to dodge them and they may be fast but a well placed blow will get them. --One-Winged Hawk 19:23, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

New preposed list
Carried over from the forum is the idea of a list also to go on this page of "unconfirmed" and "close but not close enough" type of list(s). If we could work out where characters are placed, we can explain away why or why not they belong on the list. This will in future aid in clearing up in detail why individuals were not placed on here. One-Winged Hawk 22:43, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

Nero and speed
Nero's currently listed as one of the CP9 without superhuman speed, but Soru was one of the powers he knew. Nero only lacked finger-pistol and iron body.ZeroSD 14:20, October 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd love to correct that since I missed it myself, but we're still discussing this and the page is locked. One-Winged Hawk 19:31, October 10, 2010 (UTC)