Talk:Nine Red Scabbards

Members
I think it's safe to conclude that the rest of the retainers are members:


 * The group was said to be comprised of the Kozuki Family's retainers, who were tasked with opening the borders of Wano. (chap 919 page 6)
 * The retainers we know were tasked the same thing. (chap 819 page 4)
 * Both groups are lead by Kin'emon.

Is that enough of a prove? Rhavkin (talk) 22:53, February 7, 2019 (UTC)

I would say no. We are sure to get more information in the near future, and we do not want to speculate. 23:05, February 7, 2019 (UTC)

"10th" Red Scabbard
There are only nine red scabbards. That "10th" one is obviously Kikunojo in her younger years. Mugiwara1994 (talk) 19:53, October 14, 2019 (UTC)

Oda confirmed otherwise in SBS 94. Rhavkin (talk) 20:03, October 14, 2019 (UTC)

No he didn't. He said that Izou and Kiku look similar and the answer will be revealed one day. He never said it was a different character either way. SeaTerror (talk) 06:23, October 15, 2019 (UTC)

That "10th Scabbard" was definitely just kiku. (GoldenOath20 (talk) 06:35, October 15, 2019 (UTC))

The only translation we have says "Huh? thought it was Okiku...but the person feels a little different..." Rhavkin (talk) 06:50, October 15, 2019 (UTC)

What does that even mean? (GoldenOath20 (talk) 08:29, October 15, 2019 (UTC))

That this a person different from Kiku. Rhavkin (talk) 08:30, October 15, 2019 (UTC)

He never directly said they were different. He hinted at it and said everything would be revealed later. SeaTerror (talk) 08:46, October 15, 2019 (UTC)

"Huh? thought it was Okiku...but the person feels a little different..." Rhavkin (talk) 09:21, October 15, 2019 (UTC)

I'm not going to post the definitions of feels and is for you. SeaTerror (talk) 18:11, October 15, 2019 (UTC)

Feels a little different is the whole thing about Kiku being a guy or a girl.--Nightmare Pirates (talk) 19:34, October 15, 2019 (UTC)

Oda also said in his answer "One day the answer to this question will be revealed, so just continue reading." He left the question hanging with zero confirmation that it's Kiku, thus we should not claim otherwise. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 20:17, October 15, 2019 (UTC)

That's fine by me. But at the same time, do we really need to add a single appearance character with no significance. If we add this character and it turns out that it is Kiku, then the wiki would have had wrong and misleading info of a secret 10th scabbard. On the other hand, us leaving it out would have no mistakes to it whether it is proved to be Kiku or not. We gotta stop adding random characters that appeared in one scene for one second.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 20:23, October 15, 2019 (UTC)

"Feels a little different is the whole thing about Kiku being a guy or a girl" That makes no sense whatsoever. Also Oda left the question hanging as in if it wasn't Kiku or it was so they shouldn't even be on the template at all. SeaTerror (talk) 09:17, October 16, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with removing them from the template. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 14:38, October 16, 2019 (UTC)

Why? If it isn't Kiku, the character should be included. And we had several case with the Charlotte Family\Big Mom Pirates and Wano Country characters where we had a character appear twice, once as mentioned and another as an unnamed character until it was confirmed otherwise, so even if it is Kiku, until confirmed we shouldn't assume it is. Rhavkin (talk) 14:45, October 16, 2019 (UTC)

Thing is we don't know if he is actually a Scabbard. It's kinda speculating to say that, there used to be ten based on the existence on what may or may not be a new character.--Nightmare Pirates (talk) 23:40, October 16, 2019 (UTC)

We don't know when they started to be called by that name, and they always appeared as nine people, at most Kiku replaced that person. Rhavkin (talk) 04:21, October 17, 2019 (UTC)

Exactly my point. No one said in that chapter that that character was a Scabbard at all. And, as you said, "we don't know when they started to be called by that name," which means they might have only started being called that after Kiku joined (assuming that's not Kiku). This page is about the "Nine Red Scabbards," not "Nine First Followers of Oden." Even if that person was part of a nine-person group and was replaced by Kiku later on, he still wouldn't be a Scabbard and in the Scabbard gallery because, as you have said, "we don't know when they started to be called by that name."Nightmare Pirates (talk) 06:33, October 18, 2019 (UTC)

And it does make sense to say "Feels a little different is the whole thing about Kiku being a guy or a girl." That character feels a little different from Kiku, because the Kiku that we see right now looks nothing like him. Why? Because Kiku dresses like a woman now.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 06:35, October 18, 2019 (UTC)

The time of the naming is irrelevant, even if an official name was decided upon at a later date, the group history stays the same.

The whole argument of "feels a little different" = "Kiku's gender" is speculative at best, and insensitive at worst, and should be discussed on Kiku's page, if at all. Rhavkin (talk) 07:02, October 18, 2019 (UTC)

The naming isn't irrelevant because literally "Nine Red Scabbards" is the group with Kiku in it. It's an assumption to say that it can be extended to some random character (if it isn't even Kiku). Group history is of course the same because this page is about the Scabbards. But if that is not Kiku, then there is absolutely no concrete evidence that that character is part of the Scabbards. Maybe a retainer of Kozuki, but literally cannot be the 10th member of a 9-person group. Or the former 9th member - because this is speculative that some dude existed and vanished and was replaced by Kiku as the 9th Scabbard.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 01:06, October 19, 2019 (UTC)

Look at the Ninja-Pirate-Mink-Samurai Alliance, the group has a history and members before the naming or all current members being part of it. Rhavkin (talk) 04:32, October 19, 2019 (UTC)

That's irrelevant to his point. By your logic if Luffy was actually called a Yonkou then he should be put on the template without accurately renaming it. SeaTerror (talk) 16:51, October 25, 2019 (UTC)

"Members before the naming" - those members became "members" specifically because they were part of the Ninja-Pirate-Mink-Samurai Alliance after it was officially formed. You can't be a member of that specific group if you didn't join it after it was formed. For someone to be a "member", we must actually know they were a member. We don't know if that random, supposed unknown, character became a member. Maybe he was in a different group called the "Nine Red Beetles" or whatever, he still wouldn't be a "Scabbard" member until it is actually confirmed.--Nightmare Pirates (talk) 08:18, October 27, 2019 (UTC)

That is true if you can find proof that they weren't named then. Rhavkin (talk) 08:28, October 27, 2019 (UTC)

I may not have proof that they weren't named then, but likewise, there is no proof they were named then (because they aren't called the Nine Red Scabbards in that scene). If we can assume that they were already named the "Nine Red Scabbards" then because it is a nine-person group that serves under Oden and that basically has all the members of the Scabbards we see today, then that is no different than assuming that that is actually Kiku (because that would make the most sense as it is a nine person group serving under Oden). Nightmare Pirates (talk) 08:36, October 27, 2019 (UTC)

Assuming that was Kiku was what we did Until Oda said it isn't necessarily the case. The asuumption that that group, which include Ashura Doji and the minks, and the fact they were said to be Oden's followers in the flashback indicate that it happened after Oden took over Kuri, thus became its ruler and they are his retainers. Rhavkin (talk) 08:48, October 27, 2019 (UTC)

Well, who's to say Oden didn't have other retainers? Those other retainers wouldn't be Scabbards either. When did it say that the Nine Red Scabbards were nine retainers from the beginning of Oden's rule? Because it didn't and since we cannot assume that that is Kiku, we also can't assume that that person was part of the Nine Red Scabbards that Kiku is in. If we can't assume its Kiku, we also can't assume it's not Kiku either since Oda never said "There was a person that was part of the group before Kiku". Leaving it out avoids confusion and assumption.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 09:23, October 27, 2019 (UTC)

Here is what we do know:
 * There was a group of nine people that followed Oden.
 * Eight of the nine are also confirmed to be Scabbards.
 * The former ninth member is implied to not be Kiku.

The question is whether the official naming determine the start of the group:
 * The straw Hat Pirates were officially named after Luffy started his journey, Zoro was recruited, Nami joined, and the Merry acquired.
 * The NPMSA has a history of Law's past, long before the Straw Hat and Heart Pirates were formed, and before Momonosuke group arrived to the present.

Rhavkin (talk) 09:34, October 27, 2019 (UTC)

Well I would argue that it wasn't implied that wasn't Kiku, as all Oda said was "it feels a little different". This could mean anything because literally when you look at the young versions of the Scabbards they all feel (and look) different than they are now. And also, any history of characters before a group is formed is relevant because those eventual group members all become part of said group. So none of your examples to prove otherwise of "the official naming determin[ing] the start of the group" help to disprove this claim, specifically because those in your examples all actually become part of the group (Luffy, Zoro, and Nami all become part of the Straw Hats; Law becomes part of the NPMSA). That unknown character (if not Kiku) is not known to eventually be part of the group (if not already), so we can't say he is. For example, Koby hung out with Luffy and Zoro before the Straw Hats were founded, this doesn't mean he is a Straw Hat just because he was with them. You only become part of a group (and have your picture in the gallery) if you end up actually being in the group. And also, I would add on to "Here is what we do know" that the nine person group includes only the people we see today as far as we know. That is what we know. We don't know if it included someone before Kiku and frankly, thats a big assumption.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 09:54, October 27, 2019 (UTC)

how is this even a freaking discussion they lirteally called the nine scabbords not the ten when scabbords first mention a background picture shows nine people only kiku was one of those people there no one else hinted or ever mentioned there shred of evidence that there were other members of this group all the current inforamtaion revealed shows that current nine people are the og memebers and only memebers every been part of this group, all oda said " Oh... You guys noticed another small detail. Young Kin’emon and the others in the flashback scene. If you count them no doubt there’re 9 people. Huh? thought it was Okiku...but the person feels a little different...By the way, “Izo” is one of the commanders that appeared in the Summit War arc. It’s true that they look similar since Izo also wore a kimono. And in vol 82 chapter 820, it did said that some people from “Wano Country” joined Whitebeard’s ship~. One day the answer to this question will be revealed, so just continue reading. You’ll notice it, right" this not oda saying that was a totally differnt character those this cause some speuclation yes it those but thats all it is specualtion until he clealry shows or out right says so this pure speculation that is all .also this what i be talking about there clealry a rule that said until decision is made any edit and all edit must remain the same until concession is made the character group box for them was changed the discussion for them is still going on and most of people here disagree with this change so why is it allowed stay this wayTo love this (talk) 05:44, October 30, 2019 (UTC) To love this (talk) 05:56, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

There's just a clear majority at this point with only one person wanting the person to stay on the template. So no point in keeping this open any longer. SeaTerror (talk) 06:12, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

To love this, the Shichibukai at times had less then seven members, as were to Yonko for at least one year, and the Three Sweet commanders were once a group of four. Numbers in group name does not mean that much.

We are in the middle of a flashback of Oden history, so majority or not, we will probably have a real confirmed answer soon, and if not there are SBSs. Rhavkin (talk) 08:20, October 30, 2019 (UTC)

dude when admirals warlords and yonkou first introduce there numbers were compelte and set and established there wasnt no eight warlord no 0 yonkou no fourth admiral there were the 3 admirals 7 warlords and 4 emeperors just like there only nine scabbards the three sweet commanders orginal name was the four sweet commanders they list are member the fourth postion was got rid of doesnt matter if there once was another memeber the postion was abolished every time they have been mentioned they have been called the nine nothing else u have no proof there was a tenth member all u have is specualtionsTo love this (talk) 20:16, October 30, 2019 (UTC)


 * 1) Not a dude.
 * 2) The admirals never had a number in their title.
 * 3) We don't use the "warlord" and "emporer" translation.
 * 4) I'm not saying there were ten members at a certain point, and that the name was changed like the Sweet commanders, just that Kiku and the person in the flashback are not the same, and that the nine we know now weren't the starting nine.

Rhavkin (talk) 21:09, October 30, 2019 (UTC)


 * 1they are called the three admirals three at a time dude
 * 2 the lirteal tranlastion for the warlords are "Royal Seven Warriors (of the) Sea" the lirteal tranlastion
 * 3 the lirteal translastion for yonkou is four emperors yon means four and yes we do use that translation
 * 4 you have zero proof that isnt kiku as a child all u have is amboigous repsonse from oda that neither denies that is young kiku or confirms that it is kiku for right now all you are doing is trying make specualtion sound like fact do u have any real proof that isnt kiku anything?To love this (talk) 05:50, October 31, 2019 (UTC)

Stop calling me a dude.

The wiki do not use literal translation, accept it and stop talking about that here, this is neither the place nor the topic. The discussion ended with the person not confirmed to be Kiku nor a scabbard, don't get the two arguments confuse. Rhavkin (talk) 06:04, October 31, 2019 (UTC)

i am not about have this discussion with you the wiki use lirteal translastion for info boxes japanese 四天皇 Shi ten'nō romanized yon(4) kõ (emperor) english four Emperors those are lirteral translastions used and shown on the page flr them for example and yes the decison was made so stop trying change gallery boxs here and for wano character boxTo love this (talk) 06:21, October 31, 2019 (UTC)

Learn the difference between used on page, and page name. Rhavkin (talk) 06:45, October 31, 2019 (UTC)

learn what a trnalastion is and stop putting that info box under red scabbord sections and kozuki family pages07:06, October 31, 2019 (UTC)

Chapter 963
So either the Hakumi robbery was before the nameing or Izo is confirmed as member. Rhavkin (talk) 07:03, November 22, 2019 (UTC)

I guess I support, since it is Izo and he and Kikunojo joined at same time.--Nightmare Pirates (talk) 07:41, November 22, 2019 (UTC)

They have not been referred to as the Nine Red Scabbards at any point in the past yet. At this point only the ones confirmed in the present are part of the group. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 07:42, November 22, 2019 (UTC)

So the Hakumi robbery should be removed. Rhavkin (talk) 11:33, November 22, 2019 (UTC)

Why would Hakumi robbery need to be removed? Those 9 Scabbards that still exist still participated in them. That would be history of how the Scabbards came to be. It isn't affected by whether we need to include Izo. If anything, it would be "Back then yada yada yada, the (future) Nine Scabbards and Izo blah blah blah"Nightmare Pirates (talk) 04:18, November 23, 2019 (UTC)

Because as Kaido said, the group was not confirmed to have been named, so that is part of their personal histories, not the group. Rhavkin (talk) 05:24, November 23, 2019 (UTC)

Yes, it's is part of personal history but it is also part of the Scabbards history. Because if it wasn't, then none of the "Past" section where they encountered Oden would be included, because your argument would be that the group was not confirmed to be named then. History is a background of the group. Plus, it is clear that the Scabbards evolved from that group plus Izo, since all of them are in it. If the Hakumai incident was just done by two people in this group, then that might be debatable as to whether it belongs here, but as I see it now, ALL members of the Scabbards took part of it.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 06:36, November 23, 2019 (UTC)

That is exactly my original point. If the group, named or not, did something then it is relevant for the group. That is why Izo should be consider part of the group since he took part in the group activities. Also, we do not put individual's history on a group before formation (again, named or not) just like brook history before joining the Straw Hats isn't mention on their page until their meeting in the Florian Triangle. Rhavkin (talk) 07:25, November 23, 2019 (UTC)

Brook's history is his individual history because he was the only one that experienced it. In contrast, everyone in the "Nine Red Scabbards" experienced what happened in Hakumai together. Sure, Izo was there and he is a retainer of the Kozuki Family, but him taking part doesn't mean he is part of the Nine Red Scabbards. Him being there doesn't conflict with every (current) Nine Red Scabbard being there, which does not conflict with it being part of the group history, because everyone in the Nine Red Scabbards was there back then. Now I think Izo should be included, but even if he isn't, this does not affect Hakumai incident being part of history, because these nine people experienced it with each other.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 09:10, November 23, 2019 (UTC)

Kiku wasn't there, and joining one by one means that not everyone was at each recruitment\joining of everyone else. And to clarify, I only said Hakumi should be removed because Kaido said they were not confirmed to be officially named at that time. Rhavkin (talk) 09:36, November 23, 2019 (UTC)

Izo is not a member of Nine Red Scabbards there not even sign of credible proof he is one every other member was clearly said to be a member of the groupTo love this (talk) 21:38, November 24, 2019 (UTC)

So far there is nothing that differ him from the confirmed members. He share their history, training, beliefs, and for several years home. Rhavkin (talk) 21:57, November 24, 2019 (UTC)

there is a big differnce one that you seem to just want to ignore every one else has been confirmed to be one izo has not he is a retainer just like them he is just. not part of the group why is that so hard to understand that? And really (history, training, beliefs, and for several years home) so because that criteria we should added him to the group of people who actually confirmed to be part of the group ok sense thats all that is need we mark the Charlotte kids Perospero Compote Daifuku Oven etc as sweet commanders sense they each share the same history, training, beliefs, and home as there three siblings actually confirmed to be sweet commandersTo love this (talk) 22:32, November 24, 2019 (UTC)

Why do I even talk to you. I edited the gallery and listed his as an ally until confirmation but you removed that based on nothing. This discussion started based on Izo (then unconfirmed) appearing with them. If the only thing that count on a group page is their history since being named, and we do not know when they were named, they can't have a proper History section. Izo is just an example of a problem that arise from that. When we saw the event from Yasuie point, no one doubt that they were the nine, and since the SBS and the recent flashback, every one say that they are not the nine, but eight plus one, yet it stays on the page despite not being the group's history, but a shared event of some of them that might occurred before there even was a named group, making it a personal history.

If this discussion will in "He\That doesn't count since it was before they were named" so until a naming point is confirmed, the past section should only read "At a certain point in time, the group was formed from among Oden's retainers, and Kin'emon was made the group leader" and Toki sanding to the future. Rhavkin (talk) 04:41, November 25, 2019 (UTC)

i am say this one last time and i am done because talking to u is harder then explaining to people luffys freaking teeth can strech as well they are called the Nine Red Scabbards when group first appeared in the manga nine people were said to be members and all were named no one was every said to have replaced any one or that a number was dropped there has been no hints or any thing like that you just specualating izo is retainer just like them the kozuki family had other retainers then the nine not every one was freaking member of the group if we go by your logic of oh well it said its a group of people who worked for the family if any more people appear who are n retainers of kozuki family were going have add every last one to gallery box so until more information or evidnce is shown let it goTo love this (talk) 06:15, November 25, 2019 (UTC)

You are the one over-complicating things. It is very simple: Izo was with the 8/9 Scabbards in Hakumi. Saying that doesn't count because "They were not confirmed to be named at that time" means most of their past in the history section should be removed. If it counts as part of the entire group history, so Izo was a part of them. Rhavkin (talk) 06:46, November 25, 2019 (UTC)

no becauss u are not understanding one thing YOU HAVE NO PROOF HE IS OR WAS A EVER A MEMBER OF THE GROUPTo love this (talk) 23:25, November 25, 2019 (UTC)

do they needed ally section ?
all of the allies shown are already listed under kozuki family section as subordinates or allie section under kozuki family page zo why is it needed to repeat thisTo love this (talk) 06:26, November 25, 2019 (UTC)

That was also my point. It is kinda repetitive. I feel like back then, we used "Allies" very sparingly, for like when there was a formal alliance.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 07:47, November 25, 2019 (UTC)


 * Tsuru knew Kiku's identity but stayed silent for the sake of a plan she knows nothing about, an act that might brought her death. This kind of blind loyalty is note worthy.
 * Shinobu was the only ally that walk with them to Tokage port, and the narration specified the group cast nine shadows, signifying her importance.
 * Hitetsu provide them shelter and waited for them to bring Momonosuke to claim his sword.
 * Yasuie could be consider their mentor, as he is the one that inspired them to improve themselves for Oden's sake, and he sacrificed himself for their plan.
 * Izo, if not a former member replaced by Kiku, was their equal and partner in crime at least until joining the Whitebeard Pirates for a yet unknown reason.

If there is a reason other then "friendship" so it should be considered. Rhavkin (talk) 08:43, November 25, 2019 (UTC)

really ok then added Hyogoro,Tama and al those unamed guys as well then added every one who helped them to allie sectionTo love this (talk) 19:35, November 25, 2019 (UTC)

Tama didn't really interacted with them, she just were at the same place as some of them, and we don't add a mass of unnamed characters without reason. If you are so keen on adding Hyo, that's a little thin since he only fought with three of them in Udon, but he did followed Kin'emon's order as part of the NPMSA. Rhavkin (talk) 19:56, November 25, 2019 (UTC)

tama who went to udon prison with momosuke chopper and kiku who help take it over with kawamastu raizo kiku hyo luffy and chopper hasnt had interactions with them 😑😑 really ok wow tell me again what has kinemon wife done extacly for them?To love this (talk) 20:26, November 25, 2019 (UTC)

Tama traveling with Kiku make her as much of an ally to the Scabbards as to the Big Mom Pirates, and "help take it over"? How? by watching from the back with Momonosuke? did u really just ask how the girl who controls animals help take over place controlled by freakeing half animal people why do u think old maid lied to orochi and queen!!!!To love this (talk) 23:32, November 25, 2019 (UTC)

Tsuru confirmed she knew of Kiku's true identity, and kept quit, showing faith in her husband's plan, and took the blame for the alliance stealing food, causing her town to be burned down and presumably, gave her life for their plan without being asked. That kind of loyalty is not seen every day, even in fiction. Rhavkin (talk) 20:42, November 25, 2019 (UTC)

omg she took the blame for stealing food and knew who kiku a person she knew for years was all along you right she dersve the title of ally just for that know what why dont u go make every one from left over town an ally sense all it takes is now lieing about who stole foodTo love this (talk) 23:32, November 25, 2019 (UTC)

If presumably giving her life for the group's cause without them even knowing she did it to cover for them is not being their ally, what is it? Rhavkin (talk) 19:53, December 2, 2019 (UTC)


 * 1) dude do you hear your self if doing that makes her ally of the group then every freaking person in ebisu town would fall under that catergory
 * 2) so to you thats worthy of makeing someone an ally but the little girl who helped take over prison holding most of the rebel army isnt?To love this (talk) 05:21, December 5, 2019 (UTC)

Rhavkin (talk) 07:03, December 5, 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) Please stop calling me dude.
 * 2) You can't say Ebisu Town is an ally, because even with the few people that were there when Holdem questioned them, Tsuru was the only one who spoke up with the rest talked among themselves, and the even fewer who claim Tsuru cover for are unnamed. How does that make the whole town an ally?
 * 3) If you truly believe Tama should be added to the ally section, them make your case on a separate discussion. This is a talk about "whether" and not "who".
 * 1) what are you talking about lirteally half of that entire village spoke up lied and said they took the food as well u lirteally want to make her ally just for doing that but the ebisu people who did the same thing as her shouldnt get the same privilage and it doesnt matter if they dont have names half of freaking people under kozuki family ally section still dont have names.
 * 2) i am not advocateing for tama to be under there ally section she shouldnt be there she already under ally of section the of kozuki family that is enough same goes for every one else who already under the kozuki family section the Nine Red Scabbards do not need a ally section i am useing her as example of how it makes zero sense that u want add a woman just because she lied for them but not the kid who acfually did somethimg for themTo love this (talk) 21:52, December 5, 2019 (UTC)

Rhavkin (talk) 22:10, December 5, 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) You should re-read the chapter, we've seen five people in the panel where other residents, an we can't be sure how many of them spoke based on facial expressions, and we don't add a mass of unnamed characters to a gallery without a unique reason. If you have problems with multiple other galleries with unnamed characters, start a forum regarding the subject instead of opening a discussion on one gallery or each of them.
 * 2) Tsuru, Shinobu, and Hitetsu have only been seen interacting with the Scabbards, and with this section, they should be removed from the family gallery. Izo and Yasuie have a unique connection to the Scabbards unrelated to their connection to the family.


 * 1) ok i dont onow where u read this chapater but no we didnt we lirteally saw entire group pf people whispiering about the family then we see five people there interrupt tsuru as she is lieing and then just see a bunch of people saying they stole food but never who extacly says it.
 * 2) what are u talking about this yes we do half of the time people introduced unless they imporant enough to be named right there in the manga they get a blank manga character box the Whitebeard Pirates Red Hair Pirates Big Mom Pirates Revolutionary Army Marines are just some of examples of times there were gallery boxes rows juat fulled with no named people we juat wait to give them there own pages until they axtually have names
 * 3) ok no they havent Shinobu, and Hitetsu have lirteally been shown talking to momo and lirteally both of them includeing tsuru have said they are loyal to Kozuki Family no one has ever said i am loyal to nine Red Scabbards. izo and yasuie do not have a unique connection to them there connection lirteally comes from the family same with any one else u want put in a ally box for them every one is loyal to famliy not the sub group of samuri that serve themTo love this (talk) 03:12, December 8, 2019 (UTC)

Rhavkin (talk) 06:36, December 8, 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) * Three unnamed character talking among themselves about the rumors, debating whether or not to hide them from Holdem.
 * 2) * Tsuru "confesses" and then at most three other characters (by their outfit) yell something with two others cheering in the background.
 * 3) You really should check your examples, WP and the Marines do not have unnamed characters in their galleries, and with the rest of them, and many other galleries, have significance unnamed characters. Let me be clear: I am not against removing the vast majority of unnamed characters from galleries. Some better example are the galleries of the Drake Pirates, Bonney Pirates, Fallen Monk Pirates, and other where the majority of portraits are unnamed, but this is not the place for this discussion. This is a major wiki change and should be in the form of a forum if it wasn't already.
 * 4) I listed the specific reasons why each of them should be included in a previous comment. Being loyal to a group does not mean you can't be loyal to another. Luffy fought with several Revolutionaries, but he is in no way an ally of the RA, while subordinate crew are loyal to their captain, and when the captain became a follower of a Yonko, for example, the entire crew also becomes followers, yet only in rare cases, like the Spade Pirates, does the crew became part of the crew, other wise, the crew members are loyal only the a part of a larger group, despite also working with the bigger group.

So maybe time to backtrack to the original question. I do not think it is necessary for an ally section, simply cuz it is (basically) an extension of the ally section in Kozuki Family page.--Nightmare Pirates (talk) 07:10, December 8, 2019 (UTC)

I think that adding the ally section here would remove most of those characters from the family gallery. Rhavkin (talk) 08:26, December 8, 2019 (UTC)

Well, the family gallery is a problem in and of itself. Because a lot of those allies are "allies" by extension. Onimaru to Kawamatsu. Toko to Hiyori. Tsuru to Kin'emon. So yes, it would make sense to move/remove them, but do we really need to mark "minor" allies everywhere. Like God forbid anyone decide to just add allies to the Nefertari Family gallery or the Riku Family gallery, because they definitely can if based on what's occurring on Kozuki Family page lmao.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 09:40, December 8, 2019 (UTC)

did you even read what i typed and be honest because i said and i quote "introduced unless they imporant enough to be named right there in the manga they get a blank manga character box the Whitebeard Pirates Red Hair Pirates Big Mom Pirates Revolutionary Army Marines are just some of examples of times there were gallery boxes rows just fulled with no named people " because yes there was a time when half of members of those crews were unamed and looked like those examples you just used the red haired pirates still has this right now. and let me be clear no one is asking for a major wiki change you made a false comment i said you were wrong and gave example thats all. so why would we need to give both of them affilated boxes if it just same people and over who again are allies of the family not the nine. ok lets say vinsmoke family were offical allies of straw hats would you want put the them under the germa 66 another group who lirteally serves the vinsmoke family affilated section or would be enough just have them under the vinsmoke section?
 * 1) ok 2 things 1.The reason you listed were inncorrect or so ambigous they could be used for any unnamed unimporant backgorund fodder be able to be put under other affilated sections (because lirteally your argument for adding tsuru is that she lied for them thats all).2 The people you listed are loyal and affilates of family not soldiers has any one said you are right about "Being loyal to a group does not mean you can't be loyal to another" but have u seen any one say oh i am loyal to kozuki family and the nine samurai?no u havent because its clearl any one loyal to nine samuria is loyal to family

no they dontTo love this (talk) 09:20, December 8, 2019 (UTC)

Tlt, seriously, learn to comment on a talk page. Your entire comment should be added after the latest comment. Do not comment in between comments.

I am going to ignore your first point because it is off topic. If we'll decide to have an ally section, then we can discuses who, including which unnamed characters, belong there.

As for the second point, a character doesn't need to say "I am loyal to..." to show loyalty, it is all based on evidences from the manga.Rhavkin

So maybe time to backtrack to the original question. I do not think it is necessary for an ally section, simply cuz it is (basically) an extension of the ally section in Kozuki Family page.--Nightmare Pirates (talk) 07:10, December 8, 2019 (UTC)

I think that adding the ally section here would remove most of those characters from the family gallery. Rhavkin (talk) 08:26, December 8, 2019 (UTC)

Well, the family gallery is a problem in and of itself. Because a lot of those allies are "allies" by extension. Onimaru to Kawamatsu. Toko to Hiyori. Tsuru to Kin'emon. So yes, it would make sense to move/remove them, but do we really need to mark "minor" allies everywhere. Like God forbid anyone decide to just add allies to the Nefertari Family gallery or the Riku Family gallery, because they definitely can if based on what's occurring on Kozuki Family page lmao.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 09:40, December 8, 2019 (UTC)

NP, the "allies by extension" is exactly way they should be here and not on the family page. Rhavkin (talk) 09:45, December 8, 2019 (UTC)

omg if ally section is added every one from kozuki page would be added here you cant say some one is a ally of the main group but not the sub group that what sense would it make to say oh well this person is ally of the main group but he isnt ally of the sub one.They do not need a section it would be totally pointlessTo love this (talk) 11:06, December 8, 2019 (UTC)

The Straw Hats were allied of the Fire Tank Pirates while they were subordinates of Big Mom =, but were far from her allies. You can be an ally of a person who is part of a group, but not the group. Rhavkin (talk) 11:17, December 8, 2019 (UTC)

what are you talking about they were lirteally allied woth them to betray big mama what sense would it make to put the straw hats as allies for big mama the woman who they lirteally aiming to killTo love this (talk) 23:12, December 8, 2019 (UTC)

Of course their not allies with BMP, but they are allies with a small group within the BMP. This is an example of being allies with a sub-group and not the main group. Rhavkin (talk) 06:33, December 9, 2019 (UTC)

NO IT IS NOT Bege was lirteally only ally to kill her he was basically a spy they were never truly allies06:00, December 11, 2019 (UTC)

No, he was an ally:
 * 1) Married into the family.
 * 2) Followed orders.
 * 3) Disposed of people who shown signs of betrayal.

He just had ulterior motives. If one or more of the following didn't happened:
 * Marring anyone other then Chiffon, who sees her mother as a monster.
 * Haven't discovered about Big Mom's trauma.
 * Didn't have access to Caesar.
 * Wasn't in charge of security for the Tea Party.
 * Didn't have Brûlée as an exit strategy.

Then he might have still be an ally. The fact that he is an opportunist, doesn't mean he wasn't an ally. Rhavkin (talk) 06:11, December 11, 2019 (UTC)

Bege himself said he only did all of that in preperation of betraying her. SeaTerror (talk) 09:46, December 11, 2019 (UTC)

Again, ulterior motives. That still doesn't mean he wasn't a faithful ally until then. The New Fish-Man Pirates and Flying Pirates alliance ended with betrayal, but you can't say they weren't allies, and even if it was his plan all along and not, as Brûlée said in the beginning of WCI, a computerize after being defeated by the BMP, we still list Apoo as Kid ally where we know he went in the alliance as a ruse. Rhavkin (talk) 09:53, December 11, 2019 (UTC)

If you planned to betray somebody from the very beginning then they are not an ally by definition. SeaTerror (talk) 19:44, December 11, 2019 (UTC)

So Robin, who never intended to reveal Pluton's whereabouts to Crocodile isn't in Baroque Works? Should Lucci, Kaku, and Kalifa be removed from Galley-La Company and Water seven templates? Is Stussy not part of the Underworld? Rhavkin (talk) 19:58, December 11, 2019 (UTC)

Well, hold on, those are completely different situations. It's not comparable. We def shouldn't have Apoo, Kid and Hawkins as allies tho. They were "allied" for like two seconds.--Nightmare Pirates (talk) 22:31, December 11, 2019 (UTC)

Apoo and Hawkins are still allies by association, and we do not know if Kid knows about the whole thing being a ruse. Hawkins might have learned about it after joining, so from Kid's perspective, they were allies. And as for the duration of the alliance, their meeting started during Punk Hazard, was established about a day later, when the morning paper about Doflamingo's apparent resigning, and was dissolved a little after Dressrosa when Kaido showed up, so at least three days total, depending on the amount of time reaching Dressrosa from Punk Hazard, and when after Dressrosa did Kaido dropped in, while the New Fish-Men and Flying Pirates alliance was less then a day. Rhavkin (talk) 22:54, December 11, 2019 (UTC)

THE New Fish-Man Pirates and Flying Pirates situation was no way similar they did not go into alliances planning to betray each other. nor do we know why exatcly apoo went to meeting with kidd and basil he could went to help take down shanks for kaido we do not know if he went there to betray them. and ok none of those peoples you menitoned were were never allies of those groups groups lucci,kalifa and kaku were lirteally working undercover at galley-law robin was second in command of Baroque Works and the underworld isnt a singular organzations no one is loyal to any one so no one can be called a traitor or a allyTo love this (talk) 09:39, December 13, 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) being member of family and being ally are two differnt things bege and aladdin are still married into the familys that didnt stop
 * 2) bege did not follow orders he lirteally only took sanji back for his plans to work
 * 3) HE WAS NEVER ALLY HE LIRTEALLY SAID HE ONLY JOINED TO KILL BIG MAMA NO MATTER IF ANY OF THOSE THINGS DIDNT HAPPEN HE STILL WOULD BEEN PLAANING TO KILL KILL HER.


 * 1) No one said they aren't family members.
 * 2) + 3. He earned enough trust to be made a Rook and in charge of security, if he didn't follow orders until that point how would you explain that? Not to mention that he couldn't have planned for it ahead of time because getting excess to Caesar was a recent development. Things just worked out to make this Tea Party the perfect opportunity.

You are throwing many speculative and irrelevant thing into the air here:
 * The New Fish-Man and Flying Pirates alliance was brought up to show bad end and duration does not affect the "allied" relationship.
 * The whole Apoo reasoning is your speculations.
 * The undercover agents and Robin was brought up to show mal-intent when coming together does not affect the "allied" relationship.

Rhavkin (talk) 15:25, December 13, 2019 (UTC)