Talk:Oden Two Sword Style

Oden Ittoryu
I can't believe it took so long for this to come up, but I included Oden Ittoryu that the Mink leader's created. However, I don't know their original Japanese or their official English names. Can someone include it? Shadoguardian (talk) 10:11, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Oden Two Sword Style is the strongest sword style.
""What he himself called the (strongest) sword style was not a boast, it was the only one that deeply wounded Kaido!" from the vivre cards.

I don't understand why there is a need to discuss over this when 1)Oden mentions so and 2)the vivre cards then state that what Oden said wasn't a boast, and how it's indeed the strongest sword style. Why do the edits on Oden and Oden's Two Sword Style pages require discussion over literal facts (SBS and vivre cards), but the statement about Denjiro from the vivre card (his swordsmanship being the greatest among the Akazaya), was perfectly accepted without any need for discussion? 3.Togen Shirataki being a Haoshoku Haki attack is also a fact from SBS 100 and the reason why the Mountain God survived despite being sliced in half, was also explained SBS 100.

So I'm asking again, why is there a need to discuss over this, but not over the other SBS or vivre cards statements when it comes to the other characters? Unforgiven0815 (talk) 21:52, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Dragonus Nesha (talk) 23:02, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) From which Vivre Card does that statement come? And what's the Japanese text of that statement, if you have it?
 * 2) The Mountain God situation is still in the article as part of Tougen Shirataki's description; I simply removed the one wedged into the sentences about strength and Busoshoku Haki as there is no connection there.
 * 3) The removed Haoshoku Haki claims were written as speculative statements, so they can't also be facts.

Unforgiven0815 (talk) 00:33, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) From the "Exciting! Legendary men" pack. The "Exciting! Legendary Men" pack and the "Departure of Determination! Nine Red Scabbards!!" pack were both revealed and released at the same day. The first one has Oden on the cover while the second has Kinemon. The infos about the Scabbards were stated in the latter pack, while the info of Oden Nitoryu being the strongest sword style, comes from the first pack, the one with Oden on the cover.
 * 2) Well, not really. You still removed the parts where it was said that Oden's cut was so clean and precise that the severed parts of the Mountain God were able to be put back together. As I said, Oda explained it in the SBS. (I can try looking up the whole page if that's what you want, I already saw it months ago). I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Youtuber KingOfLightning or not, but he went made a read through of SBS 100.<--You'll see the statement about the Mountain God in the video, as well as the page from the SBS about the Mountain God, confirming the statement that it survived because Oden cut is so cleanly and precisely.
 * 3) I guess including "possibly" wasn't a good idea, but Togen Shirataki is confirmed in the SBS to be a Haoshoku Haki attack and there was black lightning coming off Oden's blade after he cut Kaidou with Togen Totsuka, so I don't see why Togen Totsuka wouldn't be a CoC coated attack. It really wasn't a claim from my side, Oden possessing Haoshoku Haki since he's a teenager is fact considering that Oda stated that Togen Shirataki, which Oden only used once when he was 18, is a Haoshoku Haki attack.
 * 4) To sum it up, Oden Two Sword Style being the strongest sword style is a fact, Togen Shirataki being a Haoshoku Haki attack is a fact, and the Mountain God surviving because Oden's cut was so clean and precise, is a fact. Was the way I wrote these statements seriously the only problem here?

I assume the quote you keep referencing is this one from Oden's vivre card:
 * 自称「最強」の剣術. おでんの自負は伊達ではなく、カイドウに唯一深手を負わせた.

While I can see how that translation was reached, to me, the caption is simply pointing out that Oden's self-proclaimed greatness wasn't without merit, unlike say Orochi's was. That's not quite the same as claiming that Oden's boast is absolutely true.

Oda doesn't specify that Tougen Shirataki is a Haoshoku Haki attack in that SBS answer. The question involves the kid training two different attacks, and Oda's answer doesn't mention either by name, just general reaction to Haoshoku Haki. Also, not all black lightning effects are indicative of Haoshoku Haki infusion. The ones in Oden's attack on Kaidou aren't streaming off his sword like other infused attacks' are.

I'm not sure why you're trying to prove the Mountain God statement is in the SBS. The issues with that were placement and phrasing, not the validity. I didn't include the SBS citation in the Tougen Shirataki description because it seemed redundant after the manga/anime references. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 02:17, 3 April 2022 (UTC)


 * 1) It says that what he himself called the strongest sword style was not a boast and how it's the only one that deeply wounded Kaido. Meaning that Oden's claim here, wasn't him boasting, but the actual deal. This doesn't mean that anyone who uses Oden Two Sword Style for the first time can utilize the sword style to its fullest or be as strong as Oden. Oden wasn't saying that whoever uses this sword style is the strongest/greatest swordsman. When Kinemon and the other Scabbards used the sword style against Kaido, he called what they're doing a cheap imitation/copy, and although they were able to injure Kaido, they couldn't even open up the old scar. Meaning that Oden Two Sword Style was the strongest/greatest sword style when utilized by Oden himself, the original and creator of it. The vivre card points out his feat of scarring and deeply injuring Kaido besides the statement. As it states, Oden was the only one who deeply injured Kaido, we know that the Scabbards couldn't even open up the old scar cause they lack the power, and while Zoro managed to scar Kaido, 1)the scar is small compared to the scar Oden did, 2)it didn't knock Kaido down, and 3)the vivre card came out months after Chapter 1010 (The chapter where Zoro scarred Kaido), meaning that Oden is still being considered as the only one to have deeply injured Kaido. Oden Nitoryu was the strongest sword style when used by Oden, the original and creator of the sword style. For example, it's not like someone who steals Mihawk's sword would be suddenly capable of doing what Mihawk is capable of, and the same goes for Zoro not being on Oden's level yet just because he has one of Oden's swords. Oden Two Sword Style became the strongest sword style at the hands of Oden through years of training and mastering it, while the Scabbards used it only once against Kaido and never before.
 * 2) Oda specifically told the kid to "take it easy on the Conqueror's Haki", meaning that in Oda's eyes, Divine Departure and Togen Shirataki are Haoshoku Haki attacks. Otherwise he would've told the kid to take it easy on the Conqueror's Haki (Divine Departure) and Armament Haki (Togen Shirataki).
 * 3) There are two black lightning effects on the panel where Oden scarred Kaido. There is the chunk at the right, coming from where Oden sliced Kaido, and then there is another bit on the left, seperate from the other black lightnings, and it's coming off Oden's sword. If that black lightning effect isn't indicative of Haoshoku Haki infusion, then what is? Because that bit is clearly coming off his blades, which is a sign of Haoshoku Infusion, as we saw on the panels where Roger and Whitebeard used Haoshoku Infusion on their weapons before clashing.
 * 4) The anime/manga never mentioned why or how the Mountain God survived. Sure, it reappeared after years with the scar in the manga, but they never explained how it didn't die from Oden's cut. The SBS has Oda explaining how it survived, so I feel like mentioning it would make sense, no? What's wrong with "Oden's cut was so clean and precise that although the Mountain God was bisected in half, it survived and it's severed parts were stitched back together"? Unforgiven0815 (talk) 04:24, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

It looks like you're reading too much into the VC and SBS comments and leaning too heavily on those translations and your own assumptions. Let's see if anyone else wants to weigh in. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 02:04, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

First of all, apologies for the late answer. Second, I understand what you're saying, but my point is that leaving it to "According to Oden, Oden Two Sword Style is the greatest sword style" makes it sound like Oden's opinion of himself/him boasting, even though the vivre card again, makes it specifically very clear that what Oden said wasn't a boast but a fact. So why not include that in Oden's profile? Subjective opinions of the strength of other characters get treated as facts here, while actual facts get ignored. The fact that Oden Nitoryu is the greatest sword style gets treated as a opinion here and is not included in Oden's profile, while Rayleigh's profile for example states that he is "one of the strongest characters in One Piece" even though that was never said anywhere in the story and there are plenty of characters (Rocks, Roger, Whitebeard, Garp, Sengoku, Oden, Shanks, Kaido, Blackbeard, Big Mom, Shiki, Don Chinjao, Luffy, Admirals, etc) who are stronger than him, yet somehow the opinion of Rayleigh being one of the strongest characters gets treated as a fact, while the statement about Oden Nitoryu being the strongest sword style is ignored and not used. I would agree with your assumption that the statement in the vivre card could also very well just mean that Oden can back his words about his strength up, unlike Orochi, but Oden never said "Oden Two Sword Style is great", he said that it's the greatest/strongest, and the vivre card points out that Oden's words weren't him boasting. Leaving that out in his profile doesn't feel right to me. Unforgiven0815 (talk) 14:48, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Denjiro Vivre card->States that Denjiro had the strongest swordsmanship among the Akazaya Nine->Gets used in Denjiro's profile.
 * Oden Vivre card->States that Oden Nitoryu is the greatest sword style->Doesn't get used in Oden's profile.

You keep ignoring that the Vivre Card labels Oden's as "self-proclaimed". Removing that disclaimer is misleading. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 16:46, 26 April 2022 (UTC)


 * 1.But it says that Oden's confidence is not baseless as his swordsmanship is the only o to have deeply injured Kaidou. Like, when you look for the translations for the statement about Oden's sword style being the strongest, you get things like this or this.
 * 2.As for Haoshoku Haki Infusion, now that more colored chapters are out, you can see that the black-red lightning on the left is coming from Oden's swords, not Kaido's wound. That is essentially proof for the infusion, as I don't remember anyone in the story ever doing a supposed Ryou attack where lightning is steaming off their swords.
 * 3.I know this is off-topic but now that we're at it, shouldn't Shanks have the Haoshoku Haki infusion as well? He's shown to have it in one of the pages from SBS 100 after all.Unforgiven0815 (talk) 23:18, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

There's a difference between Vivre Card explicitly saying "Oden Two Sword Style is the greatest sword style in the world" and what it actually said. What it actually said was that Oden's feats showed that the claim wasn't empty boasting, i.e. completely untrue. There's a difference between saying a claim is objectively correct and saying a claim is reasonable based on the evidence. You can have evidence to back up a claim and still be wrong.

(On another note, given that Zoro by all accounts scarred Kaidou as much as Oden did, that means it'd be even more tenuous to consider Oden TSS the strongest as Zoro accomplished the same feat with Ashura).

To your other points, all confirmed cases of Haoshoku infusion have explicitly shown the black lightning streaming from the imbued object. The effect lines in those scenes you mentioned are no different than the ones that appeared in Luffy vs. Doflamingo. And the SBS pic you used for Shanks is a fan drawing (Oda uses fanart for the SBS headers) so that's gonna be a non-starter. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 00:04, 28 June 2022 (UTC)