Template talk:Swordsmen Gallery

Spandam
Does Spandam fit to be listed under normal swordsmen, or under "Devil Fruit Powered"? Because in Chapter 375, he is seen with a cutlass with low-ranking marines usually use. It's known that actually he usually uses Funkfreed for combat, and he even hinted it much before calling him to turn into its sword form.--212.150.174.178 14:04, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

This gallery has hit its limit, now what?
It appears this gallery hit its 100 portrait limit. Now what?

Has this ever happened before? KingCannon (talk) 01:35, November 30, 2015 (UTC)

Divide it up into a couple templates? Devil-Fruit powered, non canon, etc? 02:22, November 30, 2015 (UTC)

That's the thing though, it's already divided.

The main section alone has 100 portraits (each section can have up to a 100 portraits, apparently). I can't seem to add any more to it.

Are you suggesting dividing the main section into smaller ones? What criteria would be used? KingCannon (talk) 02:25, November 30, 2015 (UTC)

Is that okey?

Rhavkin (talk) 07:52, November 30, 2015 (UTC)

You can split it up by the arc or saga they were introduced in or by their affiliations and organizations. I would have also recommended location, except they keep moving around.(Shadoguardian (talk) 08:14, November 30, 2015 (UTC))

I'd also suggest to split the template in smaller ones, I think location is the best choice (like 4 seas, paradise and new world)

Location is a bit weird because it might lead to confusion. Drake, for example, is from one of the 4 seas, but he was introduced in the Grand Line.

Separating by organization seems like it would be better (pirate, marine, civilian...). This could be extended to the former swordsmen and DF-powered section.

We'll need to make more divisions as we currently have 76-77 portraits in the main gallery, and the tendency is for the number to increase. KingCannon (talk) 20:41, December 1, 2015 (UTC)

Since we Don't seem to be nearing the end of the franchise, and we probably gonna add a lot more people, maybe we should consider doing what the Captain page did and go with a list instead?

Rhavkin (talk) 09:25, December 3, 2015 (UTC)

Due to recent additions, I second that. 87.69.142.211 21:50, December 27, 2015 (UTC)

Definition of Swordsman
Rhavkin is incorrectly adding people to the template when they aren't shown ever using a sword. If we go by his logic then we would need to add Luffy due to Nightmare Luffy. SeaTerror (talk) 20:21, December 2, 2015 (UTC)

List of people seen with a sward but aren't seen using it: Koshiro, Koze, Packy, Puppu, Ross, Doberman (seen in anime only), Yamakaji, Lola (human), Comil, Stainless, Doma (anime only), Blenheim, Elmy, Ramba, A.O, Delacuaji, Islewan, Andre, Zodia, Wallem, Kinga, Arthur, Great Michael, Albion, Gyro, Bobbin, Dagama, Wanda, Roddy, Sicilian, Higuma, Mizuta Madaisuki, Mizuta Mawaritosuki, Gol D. Roger, Thatch (anime only), Fisher Tiger, Basil Hawkins, Senor Pink, Sheepshead, Galley, Hera, Bismarck, Binz and the one who started this edit war Baby 5.

As for Nightmare Luffy, he is not a separate character and Luffy isn't a swardman. Neither is Sanji despite using knives when he fought Wanze.

Rhavkin (talk) 21:45, December 2, 2015 (UTC)

The thing is, do we want to list every character that has been seen with a sword one way or another, or only add people who use swords as a main way to fight (DF powered or not, doesn't matter). In the second case, Baby 5 doesn't belong here. 18:27, December 3, 2015 (UTC)

Baby 5 was seen with a sward when she came to PH and when she fought Sai she turned he leg into a sward and attacked him.

Rhavkin (talk) 18:42, December 3, 2015 (UTC)

She uses all kind of weapons, there is simply no evidence a sword is her main weapon. 18:44, December 3, 2015 (UTC)

Only people who use it as a main way to fight is the way to go. Also as I said if you want to add Baby 5 then we also add Nightmare Luffy. SeaTerror (talk) 19:10, December 3, 2015 (UTC)

List of people seen with a sward and another weapon so there is no main weapon: Kuroobi (hand to hand), Dorry (hand to hand), Albion (daggers), Gyro (claw), Gol D. Roger (pistol), Fisher Tiger (pistol and bazooka), Buggy (knives), X Drake (axe), Buffalo (chains), Diamante, (flintlock, rapier, club, spiked iron balls) Senor Pink (rifle and bombs), Sheepshead (hand to hand) and Binz (shuriken).

Also, many devil fruit users who prefer to use their fruit power.

And SeaTerror, stop saying that Nightmare Luffy is like Baby 5. It's a character gallery and while he is not a separate character, she is. Rhavkin (talk) 19:18, December 3, 2015 (UTC)

Doesn't matter. He still used a sword. That's your logic. Also Kuroobi should definitely be removed. Knifes and daggers aren't swords either. SeaTerror (talk) 19:26, December 3, 2015 (UTC)

If we were to only put characters who use swords mainly then yes, they would all have to go. 19:28, December 3, 2015 (UTC)

Then go ahead.

I'm in favor of keepingall of them and adding Baby 5. If SeaTrerror is so driven to add Nightmare Luffy and Sanji go ahead as well. One thing for sure, if you would delete the people on both of the lists I put here then the discation above this one about the limit would also be solved.

And again, I'm in favor of adding Baby 5 and that is it.

Rhavkin (talk) 19:41, December 3, 2015 (UTC)

So which characters are we removing then? SeaTerror (talk) 10:03, December 5, 2015 (UTC)

So i take it that the discation is over? Delete 50 charecters and call it a day?

If so then first of all we need to be able to edit and then remove :

Koshiro, Koze, Packy, Puppu, Ross, Doberman, Yamakaji, Lola (human), Comil, Stainless, Doma, Blenheim, Elmy, Ramba, A.O, Delacuaji, Islewan, Andre, Zodia, Wallem, Kinga, Arthur, Great Michael, Albion, Gyro, Bobbin, Dagama, Wanda, Roddy, Sicilian, Higuma, Mizuta Madaisuki, Mizuta Mawaritosuki, Gol D. Roger, Thatch, Fisher Tiger, Basil Hawkins, Senor Pink, Sheepshead, Galley, Hera, Bismarck, Binz, Kuroobi, Dorry, Buggy, X Drake, Buffalo, Diamante, Pell, Kuzan, Kaku, Spandam, Borsalino and Pica.

Rhavkin (talk) 15:36, December 5, 2015 (UTC)

Funkfreed is literally a sword. Also Pica used a giant sword even without using Devil Fruit powers. SeaTerror (talk) 17:32, December 5, 2015 (UTC)

Funkfreed and Pica are examples of charecters that use their devil fruit power as primary fighting style. And the still doesn't make Spandam a swordman by your definition of "not every one that is seen with a sword"

Rhavkin (talk) 17:37, December 5, 2015 (UTC)

"Funkfreed is the sword that Spandam uses." Pwned. Besides that Pica uses a sword in combat even without Devil Fruit powers. SeaTerror (talk) 17:47, December 5, 2015 (UTC)

The fact that Funkfreed is a sword is a given. That doesn't make Spandam a swordman by your definition of "not every one that is seen with a sword". The one that fight is Funkfreed himself. Mr. 4 isn't a sniper despite using a gun. Spandam is a coward that send others to fight his battle for him, if Funkfreed hadn't eaten the Zo Zo no Mi Spandam still would have thrown his sword at his opponent like Jean Ango.

And as for Pica, he mainly uses his fruit power to attack and even when Zoro cornered him to force him out, he didn't use a sword he just hardened his body.

Read the discussion again. You and Aurora Of Death claim that this gallery is for characters that are seen fight with a sword as a primary fighting style.

Rhavkin (talk) 18:12, December 5, 2015 (UTC)

"if Funkfreed hadn't eaten the Zo Zo no Mi Spandam still would have thrown his sword at his opponent like Jean Ango" lol. SeaTerror (talk) 18:15, December 5, 2015 (UTC)

I disagree with that list. Also, primary weapon, not fighting style.

The people who should go are:

Andre. Wallem, Albion, Dagama, Roddy, Gol D. Roger, Fisher Tiger, Basil Hawkins, Senor Pink, Sheepshead, Binz, Kuroobi, Buggy, X Drake, Buffalo, Pell and Borsalino.

18:30, December 5, 2015 (UTC)

So you're saing to keep all the people who are only seen with a sword?

Rhavkin (talk) 18:39, December 5, 2015 (UTC)

Koshiro should not be removed as he is effectively a swordsmanship teacher. He has to be a swordsman by profession.

Dagama should not be removed either. Regardless of skill, he technically has only fought with dual swords so far.

X Drake is a bit iffy as he seems to be equally proficient with a sword and an axe and he doesn't favor one over the other, so I think he should stay.

With that said, I agree with the ones that Aurora said.KingCannon (talk) 22:21, December 5, 2015 (UTC)

X Drake is on the list because as you said, he used an axe as well, so we can't say for sure swords are his main weapon of choice. Dagama is borderline so I'm fine with either removing or keeping him. And yes, Rhavkin, people who are shown with a sword and a sword only can be simply called swordsmen, we really don't have to be difficult about that. :) 17:39, December 6, 2015 (UTC)

They have to be shown using the sword. If we went with the way you said then we'd have to put Baby 5. SeaTerror (talk) 18:02, December 6, 2015 (UTC)

By the way, why is Borsalino in the list, but not Kuzan?

With X. Drake, we could theoretically say that he has two main weapons of choice, with one of them being a sword, so he should count as a swordsman. The important thing here is that he doesn't favor the axe over the sword.

After all, if Gol D. Roger turned out to be really skilled with both his apparent sword and gun, would we refuse to call him a swordsman/sniper just because he favors both weapons equally? KingCannon (talk) 21:34, December 6, 2015 (UTC)

Okey, this is gone long enough. All I wanted to do was is to include Baby 5 in this gallery, but SeaTerror has same kind of vendetta against her and blow this way out of proportions. It seems clear that I can't convince you that she should be part of the gallery and you can't convince my otherwise, so let me just say this: Rhavkin (talk) 11:48, December 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * There isn't one definition of a swordsman. It isn't the person who hold a sword or someone who uses it once. Every body can pick up a blade and swing it around, that dosen't make a swordman.
 * The fact that a person uses other weapons doesn't make him any less of a swordman. Brook said he can plat many instroments but that doesn't mean he isn't a pianist or that he is more of a pianist then a violinist.
 * The fact that Baby 5 transform parts of her body into swors has nothing to do with her swordsmanship. Franky has weapons inside of him and that doesn't mean he can't be consider a user of those weapons. Furthermore, the fact that Baby 5 carry a sword despite being able to transform all or parts of her body into one just show that she can use it well enough.

ST, read what I said earlier. Yes I forgot Kuzan, he should be removed too. I understand your point, Rhavkin. The reason this talk page is getting so long is because there is simply many things that can be discussed about this matter. I've been thinking of the definition of swordsmen assuming someone holding a sword also actually being skilled in swordsmanship. To further define the term I came up with the idea that only people using swords only should be called swordsmen. We have to decide our own definition of swordsmen and just keep to that. So I'd suggest seeing other opinions here, and unfortunately, we might have to poll this one. 17:29, December 7, 2015 (UTC)

Okey, it's been two weeks. I'm addind Baby 5 and keeping all those who held a sword despite not seen fighting.

Rhavkin (talk) 08:19, December 21, 2015 (UTC)

No you're not. 12:42, December 21, 2015 (UTC)

Real mature. Now, it's been two weeks since you waited for other opinions and no progress. I guess you, SeaTerror and me are the only one who seem to care so I'm gonna say one more time: The next time you delete Baby 5 delete  all  those who are listed on my previous comments or don't delete her in the first place

Rhavkin (talk) 13:15, December 21, 2015 (UTC)

The discussion is still ongoing. Besides that it's two vs one right now to removing Baby 5 meaning that's the current clear majority. SeaTerror (talk) 18:12, December 21, 2015 (UTC)

The discussion was dormant for two whole weeks and it doesn't matter how much are for it or against is if it's true.
 * 1) Baby 5 was seen with a sword
 * 2) Baby 5 was seen using a sword in a fight
 * 3) If using a devil fruit to make a sword doesn't count so remove Kuzan and Borsalino
 * 4) If having a sword part of your body doesn't count so remove Shiki
 * 5) If using other fighting stayle and/or other weapons means you are not a swordman so remove Kuroobi, Dorry, Albion, Gyro, Gol D. Roger, Fisher Tiger, Buggy, X Drake, Buffalo, Diamante, Senor Pink, Sheepshead and Binz
 * 6) If only people seen using a sword count so remove Koshiro, Koze, Packy, Puppu, Ross, Doberman (seen in anime only), Yamakaji, Lola (human), Comil, Stainless, Doma (anime only), Blenheim, Elmy, Ramba, A.O, Delacuaji, Islewan, Andre, Zodia, Wallem, Kinga, Arthur, Great Michael, Bobbin, Dagama, Wanda, Roddy, Pedro, Higuma, Mizuta Madaisuki, Mizuta Mawaritosuki, Thatch (anime only), Basil Hawkins, Galley, Hera and Bismarck
 * there are probably many more that I forgot so consider this a partial list.

And as I said earlier:KEEP BABY 5 OR DELETE ALL OF THEM.

Rhavkin (talk) 21:13, December 21, 2015 (UTC)

"Baby 5 was seen using a sword in a fight" No she wasn't. Also yes it does matter. You clearly don't know how the wiki works. SeaTerror (talk) 21:43, December 21, 2015 (UTC)

Baby 5 used a sword against Sai in Chapter 757. If the fact that the sword was her leg bother you, talk to Shiki.

I very well do understand how this wiki work, and the point of this talk page is to talk about issues and nobody talk against it for two weeks. Silence as consent.

And don't read half of the sentence. I said "If it's true".I said Tristan is the mink Curly Hats look for in Chapter 795 and Kylo was the only one who agreed and yet...

Rhavkin (talk) 23:23, December 21, 2015 (UTC)

Baby 5 is a weapons user, not a swordsman. I agree that people who only carry swords and don't use them as their main fighting style should be removed. This template is too overcrowded as it is and some culling would be good. 16:04, December 22, 2015 (UTC)

If AuroraOfDeath and SeaTerror agree to delete all of them go ahead and do so. I wrote all those who should be deleted and the reasons why twice on this discussion.

Rhavkin (talk) 16:20, December 22, 2015 (UTC)

@Rhavkin: Point 5 is flawed. If a character primarily uses a sword, then he shouldn't be cut. This means Diamante stays as he clearly favored his sword over whatever weapon he had.

Also, Shiki was skilled at using swords way before he used them as peg legs, so he should stay as well. Also worth of notice is that both his swords are Meito. He just had to adapt his swordsmanship.

Oh, and Wanda was seen using her sword in the most recent chapter, so she should stay too. Never mind the fact that she was trained to be a musketeer, using a sword as her official weapon.

Koshiro, like I said before, is a swordsman by profession. This is simply logic. You have to be a swordsman in order to teach swordsmanship.

Others that deserve to be kept: Lola based on the skills of her zombie, Dagama for not fighting with anything but swords (counters Point 4) and Dorry for having an extremely old sword, implying overuse and being his main weapon of duel until it broke, leaving no choice but go barehanded.

Essentially, from your list:


 * 1) Baby 5 was seen with a sword.
 * 2) Baby 5 was seen using a sword in a fight
 * 3) If using a devil fruit to make a sword doesn't count so remove Kuzan and Borsalino
 * 4) If having a sword part of your body doesn't count so remove Shiki
 * 5) If using other fighting stayle and/or other weapons means you are not a swordman so remove Kuroobi, Dorry, Albion, Gyro, Gol D. Roger, Fisher Tiger, Buggy, X Drake, Buffalo, Diamante, Senor Pink, Sheepshead and Binz
 * 6) If only people seen using a sword count so remove Koshiro, Koze, Packy, Puppu, Ross, Doberman (seen in anime only), Yamakaji, Lola (human), Comil, Stainless, Doma (anime only), Blenheim, Elmy, Ramba, A.O, Delacuaji, Islewan, Andre, Zodia, Wallem, Kinga, Arthur, Great Michael, Bobbin, Dagama, Wanda, Roddy, Pedro, Higuma, Mizuta Madaisuki, Mizuta Mawaritosuki, Thatch (anime only), Basil Hawkins, Galley, Hera and Bismarck
 * there are probably many more that I forgot so consider this a partial list.

The ones in bold essentially exploit flaws of your logic, so they should be kept. You keep ignoring the part that using other weapons doesn't prevent you from being a swordsman, as long as the sword keeps being the main weapon.KingCannon (talk) 20:40, December 22, 2015 (UTC)

To tell the truth I simply copy the list from my earlier comments and didn't proof them:
 * I agree about Koshiro and Wanda was seen after my initial comment.
 * Diamante used primarily a sword because that was the coliseum rule. He used his pistol before when he killed Scarlet
 * Dagama is seen with a sword but wasn't shown using them and when he fought he wasn't skilled enough to defend himself
 * Human Lola skill can't be jugged be her zombie. The Zombie who used Brook's shadow was stronger then him
 * As for Shiki, I just forgot to exclude him in my "DELETE ALL OF THEM" and I was using him solely as an example for sword-leg.

Rhavkin (talk) 20:59, December 22, 2015 (UTC)

Diamante used his sword primarily even outside the Colosseum though, against both Kyros and Rebecca. He even had his own flying slash attack that is the domain of skilled swordsmen. The pistol was used for cheap shots and execution.

Let's also not forget that he taught swordsmanship to Law as well, which means he would be similar to Koshiro in this regard. KingCannon (talk) 21:11, December 22, 2015 (UTC)

Fine keep him too, I say we keep all of them and add Baby 5, but SeaTerror refuse for some reason and Aurora just want other people to say something

Rhavkin (talk) 21:30, December 22, 2015 (UTC)

I can understand not keeping Lola and Dagama as they technically didn't show much. Dagama was more well-known for his intelligence and tactics. KingCannon (talk) 23:00, December 22, 2015 (UTC)

Seriesly?


 * Zambai and Tamagon: also used a bazooka
 * Kiev, Schollzo, Kop and pekoms: aren't shown fighting
 * Bas and Princess: when?
 * Watchdog Unit of the Law: maybe we should also add all the dojos and the mariens, or better yet, Pirates
 * Daz: (see discussion below)
 * Foxy and Caesar: other weapon and fighting styles
 * Komei: it's a Haki-imbued fan
 * Franky Shogun: ... (Nightmare Luffy all over again)

Can we Just add Baby 5 and get this over with?

Rhavkin (talk) 07:03, December 27, 2015 (UTC)

Only if you add Luffy then. SeaTerror (talk) 10:52, December 27, 2015 (UTC)

雄鶏で鶏を再生しません

Rhavkin (talk) 11:15, December 27, 2015 (UTC)

At this rate, we'll reach 100 portraits again pretty soon. KingCannon (talk) 14:53, December 27, 2015 (UTC)

Baby 5 isn't a swordsmen. There's a difference. 18:37, December 27, 2015 (UTC)

What Rhavkin is trying to say is that she share some swordsmen properties so she should be included. Personally, to answer SeaTerror title of this talk, the Swordsman article describe a sword man as "a person trained in the art of the sword" and Baby 5 didn't show less training then some of the characters on Rhavkin's lists but that still doesn't make her a swordswoman. I do think there need to to be same kind of trimming in this gallery and established rules (not definition) to who should be added: not every one that at one point or another held a sword and not to exclude someone who show some expertise in other weapons and/or fighting styles. 87.69.142.211 22:06, December 27, 2015 (UTC)

Why can't we use the same criteria for the people in the Snipers page?

There, people are only considered Snipers if they are referred as a Sniper and/or shown a significant skill with projectile weapons. Just owning a gun doesn't count. KingCannon (talk) 10:26, December 28, 2015 (UTC)

Baby 5 was shown fighting evenly against Sai- the leader of a navy consisting of about a 1000 men, who by himself defeated the famous Funk Brothers. I say that significant.

Rhavkin (talk) 18:19, December 29, 2015 (UTC)

How does fighting against someone make her a swordsman? You and the AWC are the only ones arguing for it, and me, ST, KingCannon, and Besty are against it, making it a clear majority. 00:24, December 31, 2015 (UTC)


 * 1) It's not "fighting against someone" that make her a swordswoman, it's fighting against a proven strong person using a sword.
 * 2) The problem is not the majority is the reasoning.


 * 1) * You say: "someone seen using a sword"- I say: "Punk Hazard"
 * 2) * You say: "someone seen fighting with a sword"- I say: "Baby5 vs. Sai"
 * 3) * You say: "someone using a sword that isn't originated from a devil fruit"- I say: "Kuzan, Borsalino, Ceasar..."
 * 4) * You say: "someone whose only uses swords"- I say: "Fisher Tiger, Gol D. Roger, Diamante, X Drake..."

How about we take a different prospective, you tell me the criterion for adding characters to the gallery and I'll delete those who doesn't fit.

Rhavkin (talk) 05:36, December 31, 2015 (UTC)

Am I the only one that keep this discussion active? Rhavkin (talk) 18:03, January 4, 2016 (UTC)

Seems I completely forgot this discussion existed, my bad. So I think we have enough opinions now to come to a consensus (trust me, it has taken longer on other places here). What we're discussing here is the definition of a swordsman, right? Or rather, what the rules should be concerning adding people to this gallery. Several people, like me, KingCannon and of course Rhavkin, have posted several criteria this gallery should follow. I propose polling these different criteria because I honestly don't see how else this talk page can end without another few months of endless arguing. Objections? 12:44, January 8, 2016 (UTC)

The criteria I propose is the following:

Swordsmanship is shown to be the primary or at least a major part of the character's fighting style.

Alternatively, the character is stated to be a "swordsman" or has a job that requires him to be a swordsman.

This would mean that merely being seen holding a sword without ever using it wouldn't count. KingCannon (talk) 18:58, January 8, 2016 (UTC)

What about swords originated from a devil fruit (Daz, Kuzan, Borsalino, Caesar, and Baby 5)? Does Spandam count? I think it should be presently/recently criteria so Kuroobi doesn't count but the retired Jhonny and Yosaku does. Rhavkin (talk) 10:46, January 11, 2016 (UTC)

Just read again. Swordsmanship is the primary or is a major part of the character's fighting style.

Kuzan and Borsalino's swords are so far one-time techniques that do not reflect their general fighting style. Kuzan prefers to just freeze stuff or throw ice spears. Borsalino favors kicking at light speed. Compare with Law, for example, who actually has several techniques that require the usage of his sword.

Johnny and Yosaku have never fought without swords before so they count, regardless if they're retired or not. Same goes for Spandam, who relies on his sword to be any threat at all.

Kuroobi used swords only once and mostly because Genzo also was using a sword. His main fighting style does not involve swords.KingCannon (talk) 15:40, January 12, 2016 (UTC)

So up for removal:

Kuzan, Borsalino, Kuroobi, Albion, Gyro, Gol D. Roger, Fisher Tiger, Buggy, X Drake, Buffalo, Senor Pink, Sheepshead, Binz, Koze, Packy, Puppu, Ross, Doberman (seen in anime only), Yamakaji, Lola (human), Comil, Stainless, Doma (anime only), Blenheim, Elmy, Ramba, A.O, Delacuaji, Islewan, Andre, Zodia, Wallem, Kinga, Arthur, Great Michael, Bobbin, Dagama, Roddy, Pedro, Higuma, Mizuta Madaisuki, Mizuta Mawaritosuki, Thatch (anime only), Basil Hawkins, Galley, Hera, Bismarck, Zambai, Tamagon, Kiev, Schollzo, Kop, pekoms, Bas, Princess, Watchdog Unit of the Law, Daz, Foxy, Caesar, Komei and Franky Shogun

On a different mote, while I went through the gallery I didn't see Helmeppo. Is there a reason or was he just forgotten?

Rhavkin (talk) 19:23, January 12, 2016 (UTC)

Agree with most of those, except three: 16:56, January 13, 2016 (UTC)
 * Dagama and Pedro have only been seen fighting with swords
 * Komei used his fan-sword for a great majority of his attacks toward the end of the special.

Dagama is a tactician and he relies on his mind and riches not fighting style of any kind, defiantly not swordsmanship.

Pedro hasn't been shown fighting but he still new so I'll wait.

Komei uses a simple fan- the sword form is his haki.

Rhavkin (talk) 17:26, January 13, 2016 (UTC)

Even if Dagama is mostly a tactician, he is still able to fight somewhat and has never used anything but a pair of katana. His swordsmanship might not be the best out there, but skill level is not being taken in account here. The character just needs to have swordsmanship as a major part of their fighting style. He did take down a few gladiators of his own (even if sneakily, although Jeet does that too) so it's not like he's a wimp.

In the end, he is still better than all those sword owners that we "presume" are highly skilled. Actually using swords onscreen should count a lot.

Komei is a weird case as his weapon is technically not a sword, but takes the shape of one, thus he is similar to Kuzan and Borsalino in that regard (ice and light in the shape of swords). However, unlike the Admirals, this is his primary method of fighting, so I guess he could count. I would be fine with him being included or not.

Pedro should be removed, but I feel like we're going to see him doing stuff soon enough, so I'm fine with whatever is decided. KingCannon (talk) 18:16, January 13, 2016 (UTC)

Compromise:
 * Keep Dagama.
 * Remove Pedro for now.
 * Poll Komei.

To do:
 * Add Helmeppo / give a reason way not to.
 * Lift protection and start removing those relevant from list above.
 * Close this and above discussion.

Rhavkin (talk) 18:27, January 13, 2016 (UTC)

I guess we won't include people only shown with a sword too which is fine. SeaTerror (talk) 01:23, January 14, 2016 (UTC)

Ok, I feel REALLY terrible for not taking part in this until now. I think we just need to focus on one simple fact:

Is the person skilled with a sword, or is a sword their primary means of fighting?

This question eliminates the issues with Kuzan or Borsalino, Komei, or whoever. Their swords may not be made of metal, but they are still using sword techniques and have presumably been trained to use them. 19:11, January 16, 2016 (UTC)

It's hard to gauge skill through one-time techniques such as Kuzan and Borsalino.

I mean, take Kuroobi for example, he did show some skill with a sword, but swordsmanship is not the way he fights. Would it be fair to call him a swordsman then?

Coby is another example. He was shown training with a bamboo sword in his cover story, but his fighting style is clearly based on hand-to-hand combat. Essentially, what I'm saying here is that just being trained with a sword doesn't make you a swordsman.

The inverse is true as well. A swordsman may not have actual sword training. Spandam is weaker than the average Marine and he shows nothing more sophisticated than just swinging Funkfreed around expecting it to smash something, but alas, he still relies on a sword for his fighting style, so he can be considered a swordsman, albeit a weak one.

And then there's those people that pretty much just use swords as ornaments, like Pekoms and Senor Pink.

We should identify swordsmen not by their skills with swords, but their dedication to using swords.

This is why I support primary or major part of fighting style. It would make the group more consistent.

I know this opinion sounds a lot different from back then, but after reflecting on it, I think this is the best way to do it.

Although Borsalino does have a strong claim considering that he was able to keep up with Raleigh. However, that technique feels very situational considering that he never used it again later in the war. It felt more like something he had to do in order to defend against Raleigh. KingCannon (talk) 21:01, January 16, 2016 (UTC)

can we remove the protection and start editing?

Rhavkin (talk) 17:18, January 22, 2016 (UTC)

I agree with KingCannon, we should just have a single guideline to go by when putting new characters in this page, and his sounds best imo. 12:41, January 31, 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh whoops, didn't see that it was already over. Well, perfect then! 12:42, January 31, 2016 (UTC)

Devil Fruit Powered
Also, I have a HUGE problem with this page: Why is every swordsman with a devil fruit listed in the "devil fruit powered" section?! That's not what it means AT ALL.

Here's a list of why that whole section is fucked:


 * The DFs of Buggy, Pell, Chaka, Foxy, Hawkins, Drake, Kine'mon, Issho, Senor Pink, Pica, and Jack do not in any way contribute to their swordsmanship abilities. They do not create the sword, or help them use it much differently than a normal person. They still received some kind of training with a sword that they still follow regardless of the DF. All of them should be removed from this section


 * Brook, Shiki, Law, Buffalo, Diamante have their sword abilities changed by the DF, but still use classic techniques and all use normal swords not created by their DF. These people should be removed from the section as well.


 * Spandam's sword may be a DF, but he is still likely capable of using a normal sword (to the next that Spandam can fight, anyways.) He should be removed from the section.


 * That leaves Kuzan, Kaku, Onigumo (he can only wield more swords b/c of his DF), Borsalino,and Caesar in this section. They have swords created by their DF.


 * Daz Bones should be discussed in the section below.

Does that make sense now? 19:11, January 16, 2016 (UTC)

I'm guessing that's exactly what people thought this section was for. |D' Since it's not, I support these changes. MizuakiYume (talk) 19:31, January 16, 2016 (UTC)

Is there even a point to have a whole section for five characters?Rhavkin (talk) 20:44, January 16, 2016 (UTC)

WTF. I already removed all of those before. SeaTerror (talk) 20:45, January 16, 2016 (UTC)

Does Kaku really count as DF-powered? He was a competent swordsman way before getting his DF. KingCannon (talk) 21:01, January 16, 2016 (UTC)

Kaku considers himself a user of a "four sword style" after he adds the power of his devil fruit, so I'd say that's DF powered. 04:27, January 27, 2016 (UTC)

Actually he didn't. He called his Rankyaku the four sword style. SeaTerror (talk) 05:59, January 27, 2016 (UTC)

The separation was mainly to reduce the overcrowding in the whole gallery of swordsmen and the characters in the "Devil Fruit Powered" section refers to that category. So, Yes, their swordsmanship isn't necessarily "Devil Fruit Powered" but the swordsmen are. The Only exception is Spandam who I say shouldn't even be in this gallery since he didn't show any skill at all.

Rhavkin (talk) 07:59, January 27, 2016 (UTC)

It's not really about showing skill, but rather reliance on swords for fighting.

An awful swordsman is still a swordsman, just like how an awful doctor (Hiluluk) is still a doctor. This occupation can't be gauged with skill. KingCannon (talk) 00:55, January 31, 2016 (UTC)

The skill part only relevant to Spandam who, by your definition, shouldn't be in this gallery at all in either section. Spandan isn't shown to be someone whose Swordsmanship is shown to be the primary or at least a major part of the character's fighting style., he only activated his sword power. You can't call someone who light the fuse of a cannon a cannoneer: a cannoneer is someone who can aim, chose the right ammo for each weapon, calculate the amount of gun powder to use, take the wind resistance into account, and then take the shoot.

Now, if we continue to talk about all "Devil Fruit Powered" swordsmen, it seems that there aren't any problems from my previews comment. If we're only talking about Spandam there is a separate talk in the beginning of the page so lets move there.

Rhavkin (talk) 08:26, January 31, 2016 (UTC)

In regards to the difference between a swordsman and a sniper/sharpshooter is that the term swordsman does not take level of skill in account. For example, one can be considered an expert swordsman, or a rookie swordsman, or an average swordsman. In this case, any wimp who consistently relies on using some sort of sword in order to do any sort of fighting can be technically considered a swordsman. Consistence is the key word here, as it prevents one-time sword users like Kuroobi from counting.

A Sniper/Sharpshooter, in the other hand, is often described as somebody who skillfully hits targets from afar. This means that the level of skill does matters to the definition. In this case, a character is only considered a sniper if he actually shows such feats (or is stated to be one). Just being able to use a gun doesn't cut it.

The thing is that Funkfreed (a sword) is Spandam's only fighting tool. This means that, technically, it is his primary fighting style. Sure, Spandam is really lazy when it comes to handling Funkfreed (I've already pointed this out), but the thing is that Spandam literally only fights through it. We can't forget that Funkfreed is a sword, regardless of the fact that it can turn into an elephant.

What I'm trying to say here is that Spandam's swordsmanship is "special", in the sense that he has no real skill, but has an unique sword that somewhat compensates for it. When he swings his sword, making it turn into an elephant at the last second, one can consider that his own brand of "unique" swordsmanship. In a way, he is similar to Ohm and Diamante, who use special abilities/tools in order to make their swordsmanship more unusual and harder to defend against (although Spandam is nowhere close to their level).

I admit that Spandam is a really weird case, but I do believe it is fair to call him a swordsman. He relies on a sword that has a special ability, but it's still a sword.

KingCannon (talk) 01:07, February 2, 2016 (UTC)

First of all, this discussion is about the "Devil fruit Powered" in general but it seems to focus on Spandam. Lets move it to the first discussion on this page.

Secondly, I agree with KC, the level of skill isn't relevant but Spandam didn't show any skill. Even with my cannoneer example I didn't mention Skill but some of the minimum requirements to be one.

And third, Spandam isn't exactly a special case, we can't consider Mr. 4 and Shuzo snipers but they use artillery weapons. Lasso aimed and shoot the baseball and Alpacacino the bullet but they aren't snipers either. On that note, since Funkfreed transform his trunk to a sword so he can also be consider a Swordsman, but he isn't so neither should Spandam. If the Zoan Objects can be consider charecters in the Zoan gallery why not in the Snipers or Swordsmen gallery? Funkfreed is as much of, if not more then, a Swordsman as Spandam.

Rhavkin (talk) 07:33, February 2, 2016 (UTC)

Funkfreed is the sword itself. He is like Daz Bones in this regard.

Funkfreed is a sword. Spandam is the man that wields said sword. Thus, Spandam is the swordsman here.

And how Spandam fights? By using his sword. While Funkfreed does most of the work, it's Spandam who ultimately tells it how he wants it to be done. This is his special brand of swordsmanship, which is only possible because his sword has sentience. It's not really hard to get.

In the end, Spandam fits the criteria of fighting ability being reliant on a sword.

Now to be a bit more on-topic, I think the DF-Powered section should include characters who combine their Devil Fruit abilities (regardless if the characters in question can fight with swords normally, without relying on their DF abilities) with their swordsmanship instead of just being Devil Fruit users who can fight with swords.

In that case, only Kin'emon and Jack should be removed, as their DF so far don't contribute to their swordsmanship.

Everybody else could stay. Pell, Chaka, Kaku, Onigumo, Brook, Shiki, Law, Issho, Diamante, Pica and Issho all use DFs in combination with swords in order to create unique swordsmanships. JSD mentioned that Pica shouldn't count, but there was a scene where Pica did use his stone abilities in order to extend his arm's reach against Zoro, which should count as a DF + Sword combo. His reasonings for both Kaku and Onigumo could be applied to the aforementioned characters above.

Also, comparing the Zoan gallery with Swordsman/Sniper gallery makes no sense. Zoan DFs give objects a degree of sentience, at which point they become characters of their own, and thus can become part of that gallery as they end up meeting the necessary requirement by default. Funkfreed doesn't count as a swordsman because, in the end, he is not wielding a sword, he is one.

Not going to comment Shuzo and Mr. 4 here. That's for the Sniper page. If you want to talk about it, do it there. However, using them as an argument here won't work as that page follows a different criteria, where skill and feats matter more alongside a few other things. KingCannon (talk) 13:54, February 2, 2016 (UTC)

Agreed on Devil Fruit-imbued power swordsman being the only ones who go under that section. I mean, Kaku was a swordsman even before he ate his fruit. And Kin'emon's Devil Fruit of turning leafs into clothes has no connection to swordsmanship. 06:23, February 21, 2016 (UTC)

Daz Bones
Can we add Daz Bones to devil druit powered swordsmen pls. 09:34, December 4, 2015 (UTC)

Doesn't he claim to not be a swordsman though? 16:47, December 4, 2015 (UTC)

He just turns himself into a bunch of blades. We need to solve the above section before adding any new characters anyway. SeaTerror (talk) 17:51, December 4, 2015 (UTC)

Does he? And idk, the guy is literally a man made out of swords. A swordsman if you will. 19:25, December 4, 2015 (UTC)

If Baby 5 counts (the segment above) I don't see why Daz wouldn't. So all it take is to decide whether to delete 50 character or add 2, and for the protection to be removed.

Rhavkin (talk) 20:10, December 4, 2015 (UTC)

He's a man made out of blades, not swords. SeaTerror (talk) 21:06, December 4, 2015 (UTC)

He isn't "made out of..." he "turned parts into..." and his power is more like a sward then those of Borsalino and Kuzan. Rhavkin (talk) 21:19, December 4, 2015 (UTC)

Same thing. SeaTerror (talk) 02:09, December 5, 2015 (UTC)

Daz himself told Zoro not to consider him a swordsman. 21:25, January 16, 2016 (UTC)