Forum:Images on the wiki

OK I think we need a global discussion on the way images shall be used on the wiki ones and for all at least just to release my frustration. I will not hide my point any longer since I think it is perfectly known by those who care about this wiki. I feel like the manga has not the place it deserve on the wiki. I mean every sunday all the good images drawn by Oda are systematically replaced by anime pictures which are not always as good. Not only are they not always good but we get rid of the essence of what a manga is. A manga is a japanese black and white comic book, it is also the original material. The black and white, the bubble, the katakana sound effect are completely lost with the anime image. So by removing the manga images we are losing a lot : on an information point of view since we get rid of half of what One Piece is, very often on a quality point of view, and, at least to me, on an emotionnal point of view, since the manga comes before the anime. Just take an example from yesterday :

Is there really someone who thinks that the anime picture is better ?

So I initially tried to get the manga back through the infobox and it was appreciated by the community until there was a veto. All the problems raised during the discussion are specific to the infoboxes and do not apply for plot pictures. The only question is the number of images in question which is not a minor issue. The guidelines were written a long time ago when not that many pictures were uploaded, so we need to start a new discussion.

This topic is made so as to answered a few questions : Kdom 06:30, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Am I the only one frustrated here ?
 * If not, how do we handle it ?

On another subject there is this glitch issue, I have received again an answer from the wikia staff saying that they are trying to solve it. Until they correct it I think it is best to not try reupload the images to much.

Discussion
I enjoy the anime pictures more than the manga pictures. Though I admit you have made a very valid argument and I give you credit on how well written it is. I just find that the colors are both refreshing and easier on the eyes. I feel that the bubbles actually take away from the picture, by taking away space. And these images are approved by the author. -Lotus2490 September 5, 2010

As great as Oda's art is, the point in some parts of the wikia does not focus on the art. Character articles for example are supposed to focus on characters. They're supposed to show the best depiction of a character. A black and white pic of a character maybe Oda's own work but it may not be the best depiction of what he has in mind for the character. I mean he obviously has some say in the color of some characters when they are presented in the anime. Why do you think Marco and Thatch have such drastic color changes?

As for the scene presented, there are some obvious art differences presented but that's not point of the image. The point is whether the scene is represented well. It maybe an example of how sloppy the anime could get but it doesn't mean everything the anime does is crap.Mugiwara Franky 07:10, September 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * When a character is drawn poorly on the anime version it is not the best depiction of a character. If Oda wanted to draw in color he could have made an anime directly, there must be a reason why he choose this medium. I don't know why the black and white is so despised, a lots of comics masterpieces are in black and white (cf my avatar). To me, color is like suggar, it's easy to like it, but by growing up, you start to appreciate the other tastes more.
 * But that's not the point of this discussion, which is : are we still continuing to suppress all the manga images from this wiki when it is a wiki about a manga ? Kdom 19:33, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * PS : also MF is it possible to put this discussion on the Community Corner please


 * Note; the wikia isn't about a manga - its about all things one piece, manga and anime equally. However manga storyline will ALWAYS take president over anime storyline, that is the exception to the rule. However, I also point out here too that we have all sorts of readers visiting the wikia, some will only know the manga, other the anime, the others both. Some many even come here for the games or figures infomation. Therefore our priorty is to cover everything One Piece. 94.168.119.106 20:27, September 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Also... The fact we do take the manga storyline as president means we embrace it and reject the anime storyline (its easier to deal with anyway since theres few conflicting storylines). So we're not really supressing the manga at all, its the core of all the information here, with exceptions of "anime only" stuff, games and figurines, etc things like that. And the majority of the pages on here will have everything written to the manga. In the end, images is back to personnel perfereneces problems again, when we first opened shop there was VERY few images up in history sections aside from the odd one or two. They've grown over time as different editors want them there. 94.168.119.106 20:31, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

What ruins that manga image is the huge sound effects and the speech bubbles. As nice as the artwork is, its not clean and while you argue about Oda's work... Have you actually ever bothered comparing a RAW with a scanalation? If you want the orginal, you'll be asking for raw, not scanalation. I hate to say it... But there are differences between a scanners results and the orginal that makes your argument weaker and you wouldn't notice unless you look. And I'm not talking translations here. ¬_¬' 94.168.119.106 19:45, September 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Also as I've said before, as part of a blunder on my part, the word "anime" isn't on the image guidelines where it needs to be and the consqueneces are it really results in the perference for one or the other optional to situation. However I will note the use of anime is more "universal" reasons then anything. half manga and half anime looks ugly to be quite frank if you really want to go down that path, but as I prefer I note that you can argue "quality" all you like. Quality doesn't ness. mean file or image shaprness it means many layers including how useful it is to the wikia. Standardisation is often better all round then anything for "quality" as well of the overall wikia as it keeps the reader from getting visionally confused.


 * The question of image sharpness is overall just one of several factors. Sometimes, we can even reject the anime counterpart of the manga image for another for those same reasons. Example, I would not resort to use your example the Kdom, I'd have found another frame of image to display. The manga unfortantely has its faults and though it is a direct representation of Oda's work, it doesn't always mean its all that useful to us. Is an image taken up by 50% speech bubble that useful when the anime has nothing to clutter it? Also, as I said before old scans are often poor quality due to the change in technology and hands of scanning groups so it is not advisable to fully spend time turning everything manga.


 * Also consider this, we really don't need images at all, their just there as demos. Also consider as well, that one frame of the anime isn't as big of a issue on copyright as one frame of about 50 in total of a singal chapter. Because there are thousands of frames per episode and not with manga. That why I don'/t like whole pages uploaded myself. Thats a small chunk of the manga uploaded and it puts us on the level of scanalation groups. Since we draw the lines with short one move animations, we're never likely to get as bad as subbers at least. 94.168.119.106 20:04, September 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry about spelling errors... I'm really struggling with this computer and my current one might not be returning ever to me... T_T 94.168.119.106 20:07, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

I completely sympathize with what you're saying, Kdom. I really, really do. But I think more often than not, the anime does look pretty brilliant overall, with a couple exceptions here and there. (In which case, I'm starting to believe, we just shouldn't use that image at all, but that's another story). The anime gives us the full color of characters/settings without any distracting speech bubbles/sound effects. It's ccmpletely visual, which I think the majority of people appreciate, and it's just... appealing. Especially, as this is an English wiki, things should be as translatable as possible-- so, images can be understood across the board. I'm not saying that those words/effects make the picture bad on the manga page. The job of a good mangaka (any comicker) is to incorporate all of that so the page looks wonderful all together. And of course, Oda's one of the best. But we've actually got a choice that allows us to pick one that will immediately get the idea across without anything else blocking the way.

And I think, as an encylcopedia, we should be consistent throughout the site. And that means choosing one route, so all the pages are as...hm, compatible, as possible. I know this can't always be done (some things were just never animated), but we should make it so when we can. Those are my two cents.  YazzyDream  20:09, September 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * The sound effect is exactly why I like this picture. That's a fundamental characteristic of manga, how can you say it deserve the image ? Currently the arc page are half anime half manga and nobody says it's ugly. If we have to only use anime, then manga plot pictures should not be uploaded at all. And I don't see how we are encyclopedic in getting rid of half of what one piece is. Kdom 20:45, September 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Very few editors visit the arcs pages to edit them, but the general rule is we start with manga as the placeholder and convert to anime when the time comes. Its pretty much been that way for a long time. And plus, I don't anyone would even have the common thought to complain our pages are ugly anyway... Most come here for information anyway, if they want to read/ watch they go elsewhere for those services as we don't offer them. But an editors point of viiew will be different, as you've proven yourself, to a general reader. 94.168.119.106 20:49, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

The anime image should always be used over the manga images. A color change can be put in the gallery section. SeaTerror 21:06, September 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * "I'm not saying that those words/effects make the picture bad on the manga page. The job of a good mangaka (any comicker) is to incorporate all of that so the page looks wonderful all together. And of course, Oda's one of the best. But we've actually got a choice that allows us to pick one that will immediately get the idea across without anything else blocking the way."


 * In layman's terms: the idea is to get the idea across immediately.
 * We aren't getting "rid of half of what One Piece is." One Piece is about the characters and story. It isn't just about the manga. Whether you like it or not, the anime is part of it too.
 * For the arcs we use the manga image until the scene's animated, as it's always been done.
 * This is obviously never going to satify you. Which is fine, you have you're own ideas, and I have my own. The way this is going to have to be settled is by majority because I know I'm not going to change my mind. And I highly doubt you will either. Other editors/visitors/fans are going to have to put this to some kind of vote, that's the simplest way to settle this. If everyone wants to use the manga images, I'll just drop it. Easy as that.  YazzyDream  21:09, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

Well I don't see what is the problem in keeping a few manga pictures, that we could choose in the end by poll. I don't ask for a lot, but not zero like it is now. When One Piece will be ultimately finished, the only thing that will remain of Oda works will be the cover images. I find it very unfair. Kdom 21:10, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yazzydream, visually we are getting rid of half of One Piece, hence I would never have started that topic and like I said when one piece will be finished...


 * I would beg to differ. Getting rid of half the series would be loosing many of the cores essences. Art is art and we can argue all day on it, but Oda's luffy and storyline is another thing. We cover the manga storyline, thats more important to a page then a image. Goes back to "well we really don't need images at all" if push comes to shove.


 * Personnelly, due to dyslecia, I myself admit I favor anime images because B + W against B + W test gives me a headaches to read. Tharts because I read image, not letters and that B + w next to the text is really distracting. Hehee, however every person has different perfernces and I honesltly am a very minority here on that problem. So its likely I'm the only one here with it. I admit, some of the pretty colours (not images__) on the wikia were added because I found black on orange easier toread then black on white. 94.168.119.106 21:22, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

Can I just ask please, that we delay voting for a few days of any kind? We always start voting and then something crops up throwing the votes in disarray. I'd like discussion before voting this time. 94.168.119.106 21:13, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Kdom, we really are missing good manga images around. I mean, it's nice to have a colored version of a picture of a place, sometimes even a character, but when you try to get a picture of a moment, it's much harder to get a good pic. Because manga only has a few frames, so each frame HAS to be good, because manga can only use the drawing effects to show the emotion of the moment. But anime has tons of frames, uses every kind of graphic and sound effects to make the current scene the better as possible, and so, they don't always draw things like the characters' faces fine (usually in action scenes).

What i'm trying to say is that there are more chances of having a good picture in the manga since each frame has to be drawn perfectly, and doesn't need anything else than a picture to depict the emotion of the moment. Anime uses animation, making everything a lot more active, but not necessarily making each frame a good frame.GMTails 23:16, September 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * While it is true that there are better drawn scenes in the manga, that should not be the reason why anime images should not be used. As for sound effects, they are used in the manga due to lack of sound. In the anime, that sound is usually expressed thus not needed unless somebody decides to put in for art sake.


 * For wanting the manga more for stuff like speech bubbles and sound effects however, that's more of a matter of personal preference. That thinking doesn't always work in trying to show people what needs to be shown.


 * As to Oda's medium, just because his manga is presented mostly in black and white, does not mean that he doesn't think in color. Why does he color his volume covers, if he only thought in black and white? The reason it is mostly black and white is because of prevalent limitations present in Japanese comics, limitations that are not found in western comics.


 * Like Angel is saying also, the wikia is not just about the manga or the anime. It is both. The written content, which is the core of the wikia, supports more towards the manga. You cannot say that we are playing favoritism towards the anime just because we use anime pictures. Pictures are just pictures. They show a point but don't necessarily tell the whole story without paragraphs next to them. The only way they could tell the whole story alone was if they were arranged like the manga or animated like the anime.Mugiwara Franky 05:45, September 7, 2010 (UTC)