Forum:Onepiece.Wikkii.Net External Links

Overview
This forum is concerning the matter of the various Onepiece.Wikkii.Net external links that have been repeatedly removed since I revisited here. I wish that this matter didn't have to come to this but because of a lack of response, it has come to this. For those that maybe new to the matter, here is a history lesson.

Prior to wikia's current skin format, it used to be something like that of Wikipedia's. However, the big wigs at wikia decided to change it per case study or something. In response to this, a group of editors banded together calling themselves the Anti-Wikia Alliance in opposition to the new skin choice. Part of the response the alliance had was moving content to new wiki hosting sites since wikia won't concede. Thus was the creation of Onepiece.Wikkii.Net at Wikkii.

In order to help "promote" the site and get possible editors on board, I previously placed several external links on certain articles to their respective articles on the Onepiece.Wikkii.Net. While I was at Onepiece.Wikkii.Net busy fixing things by myself in order to make it presentable, there was a discussion between DancePowderer and Yatanogarasu deciding that these links be removed via bot because of the association they had with the Anti-Wikia Alliance. They were thus removed without as much of a complaint because the associated parties were not around to complain.

Now when I returned to this wikia to check how things were doing, I noticed the links were all removed. So I decided to put them back. However, they were removed once again. So I put them back again. And then there were removed once again. It apparently became clear that no matter what I did, they seemed to be constantly removed as if they were viewed as vandalism. So I frustratingly tried to place them back with an explanation that they were of a legitimate site. It was then however that Yatanogarasu came around and informed me of the decision to remove them via what I personally see as a back alley agreement.

So I've talked to them via talk pages to reinstate the links. As it is a simple matter, I did so in hopes of it not becoming a full fledged site wide forum that might drag in others outside of the matter. However because I have not yet received a proper response from DancePowderer from which I assume is the originator of the removal based on Yatanogarasu's info, and because it really seems that everyone wants a forum on the matter, I've decided to open the matter as such.Mugiwara Franky 10:45, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

Arguments For

 * 1) It is true that Wikkii was proposed as an alternate to Wikia by the Anti-Wiki Alliance. However, the site itself is not directly a part of the Alliance. It is simply a wiki hosting site that gives service as any other wiki hosting site. It is not a part of the Anti-Wiki Alliance, just one of the many site proposals given by the alliance to people who wished to move their wikis elsewhere.
 * 2) There is actually some still ties between the two sites apart from me Mugiwara Franky. While it is mostly content transferred from here to Onepiece.Wikkii.Net, there is actually content from Onepiece.Wikkii.Net that was transferred here. Example: The random featured template used here was developed by actually me. I implemented it in Onepiece.Wikkii.Net on November while MasterDeva implemented a similar format in this wikia on December. I had no idea my design was copied nor was I asked permission. However seeing this means that there is something between the sites being shared both ways and not just one way.
 * 3) The links promote Wikkii and not Wikia of course. However that is to be expected as they are "external" links. They generally promote things they link to and those things happen to be external to Wikia. If you wish to promote Wikia via an external link, you simply look no farther than what is in front of you.
 * 4) There are several other external links that have been allowed without much hesitation because they are relevant to the articles. Why should the Onepiece.Wikkii.Net external links be excluded?
 * 5) Hody Jones has an external link to Idée_fixe_(psychology). Speculative to some but relevant to Hody's article given the character's nature. Why should the link to his page in Onepiece.Wikkii.Net thus be excluded when it is an actual article about Hody?
 * 6) Sanji has an external link to a a rather outdated fansite. Why should the link to his page in Onepiece.Wikkii.Net thus be excluded when it is not just a single fansite page.
 * 7) The Thousand Sunny has an external link to a german wiki article on it. Why should the link to its page in Onepiece.Wikkii.Net thus be excluded when it is written in English.
 * 8) Monkey D. Luffy has an external link to a stub of an article. Why should the link to his page in Onepiece.Wikkii.Net thus be excluded when it is more than a stub.
 * 9) The links are meant to provide access to people who may want a similar article but with a skin format similar to wikipedia. Big width, right aligned, and not smushed in the middle. As a bonus, those who may come to Onepiece.Wikkii.Net may also help out in the wikkii. A thing that it desperately needs since its creation. It's a long shot of course but still a shot.

Argument Against

 * 1) Quote:I've been thinking about this for a while. What do you think about getting rid of the Wikkii links on the characters' and other pages? I mean, aside from MF being a former member, we have virtually no ties to Wikkii. Also, considering Wikkii is part of the anti-wikia alliance (ask Roranoa zoro if you want to know more), it might just seem bad taste. I don't know. Personally, I don't think we should have them. What do you think? 05:48, July 9, 2011 (UTC)"

Discussion
I have posted my arguments for their reinclusion and the arguments I could currently find for against them. This is not a vote I ask for. This is a request from a former editor to reinstate something that maybe considered his last edits here.Mugiwara Franky 10:45, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

I see no problem with having the external links to wikii, it's essentially the same as linking to the german/catalan etc. one piece wikias. We're not in competition with wikii, it should be viewed mainly as a partnersite and thus we should have links to them and they to us. 10:57, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

Seconded.

Like Pandawarrior said, we are not in competition between the two communities. Therefore I don't think that the external links should be shunned. I agree with what Mugiwara Franky said, as other external links are allowed there is no problem with having links to one particular site when it is related to One Piece, after all both the sites are One Piece fan bases. So, yes, I support the reinstating of the links. Blackened D. Soul   Talk   12:04, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say this, but I'm against adding external links to the wikki one piece wiki. I'm sorry because I know how it's frustrating running a wiki by yourself alone. Regarding the reason why the wikki was created in the first place, it was on the spur of the moment for the mandatory new skin, now you can still use monobook in your personal skin and we can add a skin switch button in the interface like I did in my wiki (see top bar).

Some of you said that we are not in competition, that's not really true because if I were to made another English wiki (even here to Wikia) because I refused to go along with some site-decisions (case like this actually happens) why would you have to support me? The most reasonable choice in this case is trying to merge the two wiki. If you have two or more wikis on the same argument in the same language you will only just split the viewers and the editors just to have the same content with only slightly differences, that's not advantageous at all. So having more version of the same wiki is always bad, although in the case of the Wikki we cannot merge the two wikis and I personally understand the reason behind the original protest (and somewhat I support them). Other reasons: The whole reason the the Wikki's wiki existent is to protest against Oasis, for a viewer that's not really important it's a matter more important to us editors. If you wanted to use this wiki to increase your SEO then you should read this article, the external links are not followed by the crawlers anyway.
 * The Wikki content was originally copied and it's still been copied from this wiki, although I can imagine that sometimes it's re-formulated or that there is original content there (obviously) this is a copyright infringement since the wiki's license is CC-BY-SA, so you have to credit the original editors by adding a notice somewhere linking back to the source, something like this, it's our work that you are using after all. You can copy whatever you want, but if you do that you have to credit the original editors (but in case the content is too small or you renew it)
 * You said that there was some content here copied from your wiki, though I don't know if that's template can be really thought as "original" since tons of wiki have something similar (is like saying we copied the infoboxes form other wikis, these are common templates and have many similarity. The code was probably copied as you said, but since it's something pretty simple there isn't really a "creator", we can still credit you of course). There can be content copied here, but since we have a large community the most of it is surely original.
 * You want to add here the links to Wikki, but I don't see any links back on your wiki.
 * You found some links to other fandoms, I think there shouldn't be any links to fan-sites but in really special cases. This is to be fair to anyone, there are literally tons of sites on one piece so if someone add a link to his site then why everybody else shouldn't? This can degenerate in too many and not interesting external links. I think there should be only official sites in that section, like Wikipedia (ok that's not really official) and official One Piece sites. The interwiki links are not the same, because they add a link to the same article in a different language. They have the same purpose of the interwiki links in Wikipedia, to navigate through the same wiki network (Wikia in this case). I am not against adding links just to Wikki, but to any fandom sites.
 * There is already a link to the wikki in the main page, I think that's enough. I don't see a reason to add a link to every article on the wiki.

I agree with Leviathan 89. It almosts seems like spam to have a link to the same external site on every page. I think the one on the main page is enough. It's not like we link all of our articles or forums to related entries on Arlong Park, and we promote that about as much as we do the wikkii, with a link on the main page, and ok possibly 1 or 2 links in forums. Also, it was never really a community decision. You just added the links and no one seemed to mind at the time since a few of us were on the fence about changing over. I'll admit even I was unsure. The only other English wiki sites we have links to that are not on the main page are to characters on the Dragon Ball and Toriko wikis on the crossover pages, and most of the externals, save for a few, are to Wikipedia. All of those links are purely for the sake of providing more information to the reader. I really don't believe in being promotional of external sites like this. Preferential treatment seems unfair. 14:49, February 28, 2012 (UTC)

Agee with Leviathan and DP. They mentioned all the important reasons, but this one stands out in my opinion: "Preferential treatment seems is unfair". The wikki page doesn't seem to offer anything different from the wiki(a), compared to the "foreign language" wikias. 15:02, February 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * the ttrouble is the content was moved over but the editors didn't mvfe with it like we should have done. I didn't fancy myself having two wikias to work from. The wikkia was falling behind production of the wikia last time I saw and its even up ont he top of search lists on google most of the time like this wiki is. I supported its efforts becuse I miss Oasis, but its now a forgotten and lost cause (I still use monobook). >_< One-Winged Hawk 22:21, February 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * By the way this wiki doesn't have even a theme for monobook, if you guys want I can help creating a theme like I did here. And maybe you meant "monaco" since oasis is the new skin. On Google I generally found One Piece wikki way behind us.

I guess you do have a point in it being a competition of sorts. However, I'm at best trying to provide something that wikia apparently didn't provide at the time. I'm not trying to compete with you guys. I just want to provide a proper wiki to help people understand things about One Piece. If it resembles a competition, it's only because they are both wikis with similar subject matters.

I didn't know that wikia now provides an option that resembles wikipedia. However given the track record I've had with outside parties in control of thing like with Wikipedia, I don't know if I can trust a host system run by such guys.

The wikkii indeed seems to be copied, but that's only because the several hundred or so articles have not been modified. For some newer ones, I've been trying my best to make them as different as the one in here. For others however, the task is however a bit too daunting hence the copying. This is also why I ask for the links just for the slight chance that somebody new would come along and provide something different as well. As for the copy right infringement thing, do we really need to go that far? I've got enough of a problem with the other site without this. Must I place a disclaimer on every article that bears a similarity to one here else I should I don't know, remove them? I mean SOPA much?

For the Featured template, I'm pretty sure that it's of my design as it bears a extreme similarity to what I've made. However, I'll let that slide.

There are links on the wikkii that link back to here such as the ones in Hody Jones, Otohime, Surume, Fishman Karate, Sanji's Fighting Style, Sanji, Brook, One Piece x Toriko Crossover, Usopp, and Yomi Yomi no Mi. There's just not alot because I'm busy at maintaining the site and other things. This also raises another point, I don't want a buttload of external links linking to the wikkii. I'm not asking you to link every single page here to the wikkii. Just the a few that might give a chance for an visitor or two. If you guys don't like them that much and see them simply as spam, I can compromise and just ask for the ones that were removed. I won't add any other than those few if you guys are that nitpicky. I just want a few pages that probably won't make that much of a blip on your radar.

The one link to the wikkii in the main page, that maybe enough. However, that doesn't give that much of a chance for someone stumbling in and discovering the wikkii. I'm asking for a few pages in a large 1000+ page wiki to have a link to the wikkii. It would be like the proverbial needle in the haystack if you will. However if you just allow just one link, well you're just making the needle smaller and the haystack bigger.

Not sure if this was directed to the discussion but the wikkii does have a monobook option, just not one that can be easily assessed by anyone.

As for updating the site itself, I'm trying the best I can to update it without copying. However, it is just a big task. Which is why I'm once again asking for the links in order to get help. As for google, I'm really not trying at the moment to achieve all mighty search prosperity. All I'm trying to do is to make a wiki. Is it not better than wikia? Fine. Is wikia a better source for One Piece? Fine. I'm all fine that. I'm just not fine that this wikia won't give a chance more than just one link.Mugiwara Franky 02:02, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Look if you are linking the wikki thats like linking yourself. What can they find there that they can't really find here, besides the different skin. I am against the links because I think they are unneccessary. 02:27, February 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay I get that they're like linking to myself and that they're unnecessary to an article as I whole. However all I'm asking is just allow a few links back just for the small chance that somebody might come in and help out. Also what can they find is a site that they can suggest skins, functions, and other stuff that could make their wiki experience enjoyable if they just try. They can get that if they want because the editor in charge of that is a One Piece fan like them. You can't do that here because ultimately its up to the main guys at wikia who at times can be distant to the regular joe of a regular wiki. Like a skin design, wikia decides what you should like based on the opinion of thousands of people who may or may not have the same interests as you. Your opinion is not something that directly addressed.


 * At wikkii, your voice can be heard and what you want will be what you get based on a community of liked minded individuals. At the moment, that function is not in full use due to the fact that nobody is around to be a community. In order to probably help that problem, the links could aid that in what little way they could.Mugiwara Franky 02:55, February 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * I am going to be completely frank with my thoughts here. These links are unnecessary. I don't see anything that is shown in wikkii that is not offered here in greater detail. This entire thing sounds like you are just trying to promote your wikkii, which seems idiotic to me. If you don't like the new skin or whatever, then don't edit here. Are you just trying to get people to go to your wikkii? 03:01, February 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't know if you've been reading but yes I've been asking for links to promote the wikii. I want a small number of links in the off chance that somebody would stumble and help out the wikii. If that isn't enough clear promotion then it's settled. So just please stop repeating the same argument said by other people cause I will still counter it with what I've been saying.


 * I indeed don't like the new skin but that does not mean that this site and the wikkii can't be partner sites. We can still be partners in what small way. As part of that partnership, all I ask is for a small number of links to be posted. Not alot, just a small number.


 * As for necessity, sure the links don't provide anything new that hasn't been said. But at least they provide an opportunity for some light. I could provide something else at the site but only if people come in and voice their concerns. However in order to do that, the links would have to be here.


 * I really don't see what you guys have against a small number of links existing when all they do is simply link externally to a different site. You have no qualms about the other external links. So why must you be solely against what I've added?Mugiwara Franky 03:35, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I have been observing this for a while, and curiosity got the better of me and I ended up at the Wikkii to take a look at things. From there, I noticed several matters that I don't quite understand: I wish to state that I am new in the world of wiki (ever), so I may not be aware that there may be wiki programs or clauses which allows two pages to be linked and sync each other, or similar. Also, I am just only enquiring on the above matters, not so much as questioning (which may be a more serious tone).
 * While I am aware that MF was once active here, hence no surprise, but I saw MasterDeva and DancePowderer (user name) there as well. Does this mean that DP and Deva provide assistance to the Wikkii (in their spare time perhaps)?
 * I took a look at the history page of Punk Hazard on both sites, and a certain the history log record were identical between both sites. And those identical log records were done by users PX15, Yata, Tucky, Evan which I thought exists in the Wikia only. Its too coincidental to be a "coincidence", so does this mean one site was copying the other (even down to the historical log pages)?

Is there anyone who can enlighten me please? And upfront I sincerely apologise if the above are a general normal in the world of wiki which I have been living under a rock for so long without a clue on this.

- AY - 10:25, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

MF copies not only the contents, but also the history. Which makes Levi's "copyright infringement" accusations invalid, since authors are precisely credited.


 * I see... probably he uses the import/export page function, which copy the entire history page, hence all the users who edited on that page are consequentially created on the Wikki. @MF when I talked about the skins I was talking about this wiki. About the featured template I'll add the source, you "don't have let it slide", just edit and add a simply sentence like "this template is based on ". The main point of the discussion, as someone already said, is that the wikki isn't really such a different alternative, the whole skin problem is a matter more important to the editors than a simple viewer, a random visitor looks for informations that's all. For the editor here who don't like oasis they can use monobook (though in this wiki there isn't any customization yet). About the links, as I said I don't think is fair to let only you add the links, but maybe we can compromise by adding your links only on the main characters or something like that.


 * The featured template I really can let slide cause if you guys are using something that originated from the wikii regardless of permission it makes me happy since it means what I'm doing at the wikkii actually caught somebody's eye to emulate. What would get me mad though is if you guys would use it and not at least give me some of the external links I'm asking for.


 * The customization thing is something I'm kinda offering at wikkii. Apart from Vector and Monobook, there's all the old skins that were used when wikia was still basic. Also due to the setup, I could customize the backgrounds to something that would be adequate to people's taste.


 * For the skin thing being only for an editor, that may not be totally true. Just speaking as a viewer myself, when I look for information the site at which I look for the information can have an impact as well. A site that provides info with a format one can get easily use to be better than a site with a format one can't easily get use to. This is kinda the problem I have with viewing pages on wikia whether they're of one piece or not. The whole wikipedia format has given me somewhat of a muscle memory and wikia's just giving me a somewhat of a headache. There's the monobook option but unless there's more than one skin that uses that format, it kinda still puts me off.


 * Adding my links on just the main characters is actually a compromise I can have since they're considered hot spots. Who you guys consider as main characters can be up to you guys. Whether they just be the Straw Hats or some other main characters included, it really doesn't matter. Just as long as there's a slight chance that it would help the wikkii out.Mugiwara Franky 13:18, February 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I still don't like the idea of advertising, even on a few pages. We shouldn't give external sites special treatment like that. The OP wikia never chose to be affiliated with the OP wikkii. We're separate sites connected through but one person. We aren't required to help the site, nor were we asked when the links went up in the first place. I see the whole thing as somewhat intrusive to be perfectly honest. This is nothing against Mugiwara Franky or the wikkii. I'd say this same thing about any other site. 06:35, March 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * The OP wikia is affiliated with the OP wikii by the fact of its origin and similar content. The two sites maybe separate but it can't be totally separate due to again its origin and content. Think of it like Wikipedia and this site. When Wikipedia made this site's original editors move to here, the site became separate. However, the site still affiliates with wikipedia for content and such because of its origins. What I'm doing is nothing different from what you guys are doing by affiliating with wikipedia for every single topic that can't be covered here. It's also not different from people from other language wikis affiliating their sites with this one.


 * Sure you can say the other wikis provide different language as everyone's been pointing out and that's a valid point. But when it comes down to it, it's just the same info. However if they can be inter-affiliated and such, Why can't the wikii be? Is there a rule that says two same speaking sites providing the same info can't be affiliated.


 * I believe I asked for some help when I started with the wikii. However, due to whatever, people just didn't felt like they should invest in another site. I respect that you guys will not give a crap about even helping out at the site. But if you're not going to help out at the site, at least let it have some links.


 * You say intrusive in what way? The one who's asking for this was a previous editor who gave alot in this site's creation. It's not some out of the spur third party who doesn't know the rules. It's me who is asking. Okay, you can say it's intrusive because I'm not contributing anything else to this site. However, doesn't what I contributed before amount to anything.


 * The compromise from Leviathan_89 at it's basics means I can at least have 9 external links based on the 9 main characters. With the external link also on the front page, that makes 10. 10 is a pretty small number and is I believe smaller than the number of links I originally placed on this site prior the bot eradicating them all. 10 is as far as I can go but it is a good deal I am giving you guys. I am giving you guys a very good deal. They are small links that people can easily miss, no different from the thousands of interwiki links you have.


 * I mean just allow this tiny matter to be allowed so you can concentrate on other things like the buttload of info Oda gave in Blue Deep.Mugiwara Franky 07:33, March 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * This issue does not detract focus from incoming data. Furthermore, Wikipedia is not the best example of an external affiliation. Wikia was founded by people at Wikipedia as a sort of splinter cell. It would be like saying Wikkii is not affiliated with the AWA. I can only see this becoming a slippery slope. If we let you leave links, then someone else will want to, and then someone else, and so on and so on. Links to other sites like that just seem out of place on a page too. It seems like a shameless plug above all else. What makes you think that those links will even make a difference? If they didn't before, why would they now? We might as well post links to fanfic sites on the Devil Fruit and pirate crew pages at this rate. 08:04, March 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * One Piece Wikkii likewise can be seen like a splinter cell to this site. It split like how most wikias split from wikipedia. However that didn't stop wikia from still being associated with wikipedia in one form or another. So why can't the Wikkii splinter cell of this site still be associated with this site one way or another?


 * Wikkii, the host site itself, is not affiliated with the Anti-Wikia Alliance. It was made before the Anti-Wikia Alliance as far as I can tell. It was suggested by the Anti-Wikia Alliance to its members and other people who were threatened by wikia change. Stop saying Wikkii, the host site, is a part of the Anti-Wikia Alliance because a whole lot of other host sites were suggested as well and they too were made before the alliance.


 * If someone else decides to post other links then it depends on the content of those links if they should warrant a stay or not. If they link to information relative to the article then they should stay. If they link to say a porn site then they should be taken out. It all depends on content.


 * There are links to other sites that are allowed such as the other language links. As long as they are placed at places like at the bottom of the page or somewhere where they don't bother the main article, they don't look all that out of place.


 * I think that they would help because this site is currently the most reliable wiki about one piece. Having at least some links has the slight chance that someone would stumble across them and help out at the Wikii. It is a small chance I want to take. Also I would also like the wikii site to be affiliated with this site for association sake.


 * You keep associating the external links I am asking for as something similar to fanfics or something like them. Why do you keep doing that DancePowderer? Yes it can be said to be a fansite as it is made by a fan. But it is also a free wiki that anyone can edit if they give it a chance. Also there were no arguments about any of the other external links before. Why are you against these ones just because of the Anti-Wikia Alliance and etc? They cause you no harm and considering that the compromise that Leviathan_89 has made means they would cause you less than that.Mugiwara Franky 09:28, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Still agree with MF. In particular I disagree with this sentence "If we let you leave links, then someone else will want to, and then someone else, and so on and so on": it's really a special case here. Come on, even after one year of absence, MF is still the second guy with the most edits here. It's not just anybody, I mean, we can make an exception without worrying that it would create a precedent. Yes, his demand is a bit awkward per se, but it will do no harm.


 * Personally, aside from the reasons I have already stated I'm more against adding them simply because I don't like having more wikis on the same matter. I believe that's will only be counter productive since it splits the viewers, the editors and double the work (if anyone edit on both). That said maybe I can compromise with a only selected "hot spots".

Well it seems everyone has mixed feelings about this, so far the options are So if anyone has other options, please say them.
 * Allow the links to the wikki, they will be treated as the other external links.
 * Allow the links only to the main characters (Which? I'd say straw hats members and crew page)
 * Not allowing them in the articles.


 * You meant the main crew page also. I thought you meant just the 9 Straw Hats but okay. It's also a hot spot and it's still a compromise I'm willing to go for either way. I get just a few but frequently visited pages and you guys get the other hundred thousand.Mugiwara Franky 13:59, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with DancePowderer, the external links section is for extra information that can't fit into the article, not for advertising. Bastian964 20:01, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

So I think we will have to vote on this, let's give another day and then let's open the poll.

You forgot the option of removing the link from the main page as well. 23:03, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm... that wasn't in question though... it can be discussed in the main page's talk page or not?

It's exactly the same "problem", isn't it? Even if Sff9 disregards the argument, I still think it isn't right to give special treatment to certain pages. It is a matter of principle, even if no one else will ever ask to get his page linked. 23:32, March 3, 2012 (UTC)