Forum:Renders as Infobox Pictures

This problem needs to be resolved now. There is no reason why we have renders on all these character pages when there are anime images that could replace them. The renders look like crap, and it's inconsistent to leave some of them like that, when we don't do it for others.

Example Pages: Every Straw Hat (Pre time-skip) Hiriluk

I could go on and on about this, but there are way too many pages to list them all here. What do you guys think about finding GOOD anime images, and replacing these renders? Galaxy9000 (talk) 01:53, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion
Burn all renders with fire and dump the ashes in a vat of acid. SeaTerror (talk) 01:55, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

Why can't anyone tell me what's wrong with renders? I've asked and asked. The fact is that they look nice. They are drawn consistantly, with the idea that they represent the characters in mind. Screenshots from the anime tend to be sloppy. I can't name one problem with the renders. Captain Kuro's sucks, though. We can all agree on that. 01:58, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

Did you see Lucci, Kaku and Kalifa's? Ugh! Anyway, let the hunt begin, mark down all the renders with Delete and let's wipe them out! 02:07, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

Well, why delete all just because of a few crappy ones? Why not keep the good ones? 02:38, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

I'm with Uknownada. Some renders are actually fine. We should just get rid of the low quality ones. I realize everyone's ravenous about getting rid of them, but calm down and take a step back first. Some, like the Straw Hats' are perfectly fine. Others, like the ones Yatanogarasu listed, could probably be replaced with something else. 02:45, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

All of them are bad. They can easily be replaced with anime or manga images. This is including the Straw Hats. SeaTerror (talk) 02:56, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

Not all of them are. We shouldn't get rid of all of them just because of a few that aren't good. 03:05, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

I think you meant most instead of few. SeaTerror (talk) 03:17, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

I think that ones like Kuro's and Kalifa's and some of the Galley La's can go, but others like the Straw Hats are perfectly fine. Don't try to put words in my mouth. 03:37, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

The problem with using renders is both an issue of quality and consistency. Most renders have the issue of being badly rendered, with the character's lines often being cut off or some background being left behind. That's the quality issue. For the problem of consistency, they mostly come from video games or merchandise. But the majority of characters do not appear in these sources, so it's only the minority of significant characters that have renders.

Hell, with the exception of Luffy and Zoro, all of the Straw Hats post-timeskip images are anime. You have a major inconsistency right there on the pages themselves. One second it's a fine anime screenshot illustrating the character, the next its a poorly rendered character on a bright white background. 03:54, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

I really can't comprehend how backwards this situation is. We should like the white or transparent backgrounds. They focus on the character without a surprise Usopp popping up in the background. The renders have clear accurate drawings that can't be matched with the sloppiness of the anime screenshots. The renders are full-body, consistant representations of the characters without being clouded by anime effects and art laziness. If anything, we should be looking for renders of all our characters. 04:28, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

Which is an impossibility, renders will forever be the minority due to only coming from sources which focus on a select few characters. 04:34, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

I'm with Ryu on this one. Renders are generally better drawn than anime pics, and focus on the character more. And consistency is broken anyway since there are manga pics too.

"Renders are generally better drawn than anime pics" Pics or it didn't happen. SeaTerror (talk) 16:18, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

Manga illustration is the best option I think, and if it's coloured, even better. Khaliszt (talk) 16:21, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

In a perfect world, renders would be the best option. They do provide that white, distractionless, more professional background. And the character is fully displayed in a way that fits our guidelines perfectly. Here on the wiki however, renders are oftten pixilated crap. We shouldn't hang on to renders if we can find better quality images from the Anime. However, if the images from the anime are equally pixilated and/or bad, then people should understand that we should keep the renders. And if people can find better quality renders, for most characters, that would be the ideal option. 16:44, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

Pics or it didn't happen? Okay. Here. 18:58, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

There are no renders for that scene. Galaxy9000 (talk) 23:17, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

No shit we wouldn't be using that scene, or anything else drawn as badly. If you honestly believe we'd just take any image of the characters no matter how badly drawn - then you shouldn't even be on this forum arguing because your perception is so terribly skewed.

Not everybody here is so easy and willing to take whatever they can get. 08:28, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

Hey hey hey. I never said you'd be using that image. I was simply proving a point that anime drawings can be sloppy and terribly drawn. Because for some reason, SeaTerror didn't believe us. I actually wanted to use some crappy images that were uploaded to replace renders, but they were luckily all deleted.

Now how about I say something like this. "There are nothing wrong with renders! They are all drawn nicely and if you think there is one single flaw with any of them - then you shoudn't even be on this forum arguing because your perception is so terribly skewed." Except that'd be a horribly dickish thing to say. 16:27, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

I personally think we should go with the best quality image, be it anime, manga or render, hence some renders are low quality so they should be replaced while others are fine unless a better version is found.

Nice try at trying to lie, Ryu. You failed at it more than the Spanish Armada did against the English. "Renders are generally better drawn than anime pics" That was the exact quote. Show me these renders that are drawn better than the anime. Go ahead and do it or just fail once again. You're really great at that. SeaTerror (talk) 16:49, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

Yes lets wipe out this horrendous renders and replace them with something of better quality i totaly agree with this and this should have been done long time ago. User:X-RAPTOR 17:01, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

SeaTerror, really. Really. You keep on telling me that one of the SeaTerror memes doesn't make sense. But it's your go-to for everything. Read this conversation. You changed DP's words to better suit your opinion, to which he responded "don't try to put words in my mouth". And now you are telling me I'm lying because you don't agree with what I'm saying. That is twice where you simply think someone's opinion isn't thier real opinion because it doesn't match yours IN ONE FORUM. Please just try to understand that often times, people think you are wrong. That doesn't mean we're lying. That doesn't mean we accidentally said the wrong thing. We just disagree with your bullshit. 20:30, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

Its hilarious how you try to claim that I had any kind of bullshit when the exact line was about renders being better than anime images. You showed an anime image that had no render and you think I'm full of shit? You're more hilarious than a person who thinks the world is going to end this year. Even Galaxy pointed out how the image you linked had no render. You're full of shit. Everybody on the wikia chat laughs at you when you're not there. Just keep it up though, please. We need more shit to laugh at on this wikia. You do a good job with your bullshit to do it. SeaTerror (talk) 21:01, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

Well, petty arguments aside, should we open up a poll about this? With the three options being:

1) Keep all renders.

2) Replace all renders.

3) Replace low-quality renders and keep the good ones. (We'll figure out which renders need to go later)

Those seem to be pretty much all the the opinions that people have about this issue. 21:14, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

I'd go with option 3. 21:17, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

See if somebody wants a 4th option first before opening the poll. 21:24, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

Those options are more the enough open a poll. User:X-RAPTOR 21:29, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

What the hell is your game, SeaTerror? I already said that the image had no render. It was only there to show that the anime can be sloppy at time. I never suggested that anyone would choose that over a render. I never lied. That is your bullshit. You put words in DP's mouth. That is your bullshit. And now, I don't even know what you're doing.

What was the point of telling me that people are making fun of me? What was the point? Answer that question for me. Let's see if there is one single explanation that doesn't make you a dick. It was a dick move, plain and simple. "Even Galaxy has..." Even Galaxy? What does he have to do with anything?

I'm not going to tell you what you are and aren't doing. But I am going to tell you that it seems like your trying to hurt me. And I don't get that. This forum is about renders. I disagree with you about renders. Because we disagree doesn't mean you can simply put off my opinion as a lie. 22:05, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

No you didn't. You did not once say that the image had no render. You lied about it and tried to use that image as showing how anime version images are bad compared to renders. I also find it funny how you can complain about dick moves when you're such a liar. Such as this render example and your stupid meme about me with the Zolo comment I never said. Then you lied about it to Calu and said I said it. I can also tell you never even read past that part with Galaxy since if you had you would have noticed that it said Galaxy said your image had nothing to do with renders which was what the exact conversation was about. You showed an anime image that had no render image and tried to pass it off as a render. That was your bullshit lie and you can claim what you want but we all know you are full of shit. SeaTerror (talk) 22:35, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

It should also be noted in the poll that any option that still allows renders has the option to try and get better-quality renders to replace the current ones. That's the part I left out... 22:42, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

ST you are entitled with your opinion but please do not include other editors in your rants. You're the only one saying that Ryu was lying when there obviously was a misunderstanding.If you have a personal problem with Ryu please stop polluting this topic with insults and use the talk page.

You mean when I mentioned Galaxy said there was no render for the anime image he linked? That's just ridiculous. There was no misunderstanding either, just Ryu lying. SeaTerror (talk) 22:55, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

"Hey hey hey. I never said you'd be using that image. I was simply proving a point that anime drawings can be sloppy and terribly drawn." I am not lying. I never once said that the image had a render. You assumed it. Quit calling me a liar, SeaTerror. 01:05, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

"Renders are generally better drawn than anime pics" "pics or it didn't happen" "Pics or it didn't happen? Okay. Here." "There are no renders for that scene." Nope. If you were making that point then you would have said so and not to a direct response that was about renders only. Keep on trying to get out of it, liar. SeaTerror (talk) 01:16, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

It's unfortunate that even without a poll being opened, it's clear the argument is already quite one sided. I mean I haven't even had to point out how terrible the renders for Kalifa, Sengoku, Jango, Kaku, Don Krieg, Morgan, Foxy, Gin, Buggy, Mohji, Cabaji, Pickles, Porche, Shelly, Tashigi, Kaya, Arlong, Kuroobi, Hatchan, Galdino, Miss Merry Christmas, Miss Goldenweek, Dorry, Brogy, Miss Monday, Mr. 7, Miss Father's Day, Kureha, Hiluluk (as Gal initially pointed out), Van Augur, Calgara, Wiper and many, many more are due to being a mixture of low quality, dramatic poses (which go against the image guidelines) and originating from the anime which defeats your sole consistent argument about not using the anime due to, "renders are generally better drawn than anime pics" and, "screenshots from the anime tend to be sloppy". 02:41, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to propose changing the voting options to be more realistic/reasonable/representative of what people may want. I addressed these concerns above, but they weren't addressed before the poll was made. I just want to make sure people can vote for what they actually think. And let's not use inflammatory language like "Destroy all renders" please.

The 3 options should be:

1) Keep all renders, try to find better quality renders where possible. If no better renders can be found, then the lower quality remains.

2) Replace all renders with Manga/anime images.

3) Replace low quality renders with better renders or manga/anime images of a higher quality.

I don't want to vote until I feel that my concerns have been addressed. 05:11, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Not changing the word destroy. The only change has been added. Galaxy9000 (talk) 05:21, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

I still won't vote until the language in the options is equally ballanced. You can say renders are evil and worth being destroyed a thousand times in the discussion, and after your signatures in the voting, but you should never say that in the voting options. It's not balanced, and it's not fair. 05:34, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Can we please have a few examples of renders vs non-renders on this forum? I feel like I can't make my point unless we have the alternative on the wiki. 05:43, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Your point is clear. Just don't mind ST, you'll never convince him anyway :D

Changed the word destroy so that Just Some Dude would vote. It wasn't that big of a deal and you complain too much. But you got your way. Galaxy9000 (talk) 10:56, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

No, ignoring SeaTerror. Can we please have a few examples of renders vs non-renders on this forum? People think that renders look so ugly, but they haven't seen the non-renders yet. 14:57, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Forever alone Croc. Sanji the Cook (talk) 19:37, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

So what are we gonna do with renders for obscure characters that will be difficult/impossible to replace? Examples: Simon, Gaburi, Popola, etc...   If we're gonna "destroy all the renders" are we gonna delete these too? 15:35, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Not impossible to find images of those characters. Video game images aren't hard to find you know. Galaxy9000 (talk) 21:18, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Just in case we ever need them again, I'm searching for every vector we have and saving them to a folder. Maybe you want to use it outside the Wiki, I dunno. 23:43, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

You realize we'll be uploading new versions of the file right? The renders will still be in the history. Galaxy9000 (talk) 23:45, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

I know, but many of these files are JPG's or GIF's, which are commonly replaced with PNG's. In case those are forced for deletion, I'm saving these so they won't be gone forever. I'm also saving them in case people ever plan to use vectors on their own projects, they can easily grab each one from this big folder. 01:00, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Poll
Time to get this poll started. The voting will close at August 19, 2012. You must have been on here for at least three months and have at least 300 edits to vote on this poll. Should all renders be replaced, kept, or should we only replace certain ones? Example Pages: Bad: Hiriluk, Gan Fall, Kalifa. Others have mentioned good ones such as Rob Lucci and Arlong. Absalom is not a render. Jango is a render.

'''Edit: The Poll is now closed, Renders will be destroyed. (Still will be in the image history).'''

A.Keep all renders, try to find better quality renders where possible. If no better renders can be found, then the lower quality remains
 * 1) The big croc (talk) 04:22, August 10, 2012 (UTC) kalifa's render is sexy as it is

B.Replace renders with Anime or Manga images
 * 1) Galaxy9000 (talk) 04:29, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2) SeaTerror (talk) 04:29, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * 04:38, August 5, 2012 (UTC); Side note: not destroy, just update with a manga/anime image.
 * 1)   04:44, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2) Monkey.D.Me (talk) 05:03, August 5, 2012 (UTC) If only I knew what "Renders" are ( ._.)
 * 3)  06:05, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * 4) User:X-RAPTOR 11:00, August 5, 2012 (UTC) I just find manga and anime pics better in this case.
 * 5)  23:21, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * 6) Legato Bluesummers (talk) 04:05, August 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * 7)    04:42, August 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * 8)   Djolee5 (talk) 12:59, August 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * 9)    21:55, August 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * 10)    08:01, August 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * 01:19, August 9, 2012 (UTC)Zori
 * 1) Sanji the Cook (talk) 19:47, August 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * 01:19, August 9, 2012 (UTC)Zori
 * 1) Sanji the Cook (talk) 19:47, August 9, 2012 (UTC)

C.Replace Low Quality Renders with higher quality images.
 * 04:33, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * 05:44, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * 06:32, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * 10:21, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * 10:25, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * 13:32, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * 20:12, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1)  Troll King                          22:07/5/Aug/2012 22:07, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2) (this doesn't mean that high quality renders aren't replaceable...)
 * 3) Klobis (talk) 05:27, August 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * 01:30, August 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1)  02:06, August 17, 2012 (UTC) COOKIES!
 * 01:30, August 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1)  02:06, August 17, 2012 (UTC) COOKIES!

Post Vote Discussion
Destruction will now commence. Discuss what you want to here. Galaxy9000 (talk) 00:04, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Nothing is being destroyed. They're simply being updated. The only time total replacement will be necessary or allowed is if the render is an improper file type. 01:02, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Which is why I'm putting them in these folders. I'll also put the real proper ones in there for consistency and just in case they ever do get really deleted. I remember when I first joined the Wiki, somebody replaced Robin's pic with a pornographic one. Now that doesn't exist anymore in her pic's file, which also means every other previous pic is gone too. Saving these so something like that doesn't do any damage. 01:11, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Obviously DP. Was just making a joke. Galaxy9000 (talk) 01:20, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

Is that supposed to be grammar? 01:49, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

List of Renders
It's been slow going for replacing all the renders. So I thought that a list should be made here of all the current renders to make it easier for the people replacing them. If you replace a render, or see that one has been replaced, go ahead and take them out of the list. And if you see someone with a render that is not on this list, go ahead and add them. And don't bother signing or anything, just do it. We trust you. 02:55, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

Special thanks to Galaxy9000 for compiling most of this list on DP's talk page. For the rest of the list, I went through the List of canon characters and List of non canon characters to try and get everyone. If there's a bunch of characters that aren't on either of those lists for some reason, let me know! 16:02, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

NO RENDERS REMAIN.

Discussion 2
I'm sorry to reopen this discussion, but I been meaning to reopen it for a while now. I noticed how we wanted better quality pictures no matter if it's a anime or manga, but there are some crappy images. Even replaced a good render with a bad anime picture. Sure there were some good pictures that were uploaded, but not all like we wanted to. I still believe that we should had replace low quality renders with higher quality images. 04:09, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Too soon to reopen this. Renders are considered LQ to begin with. Reopen this in a few months and then we'll talk about how bad the images that have replace are. Galaxy9000 (talk) 04:12, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

It's not to soon to reopen this. Earlier you said it was too late, make up your mind. Not all are consider low quality. We can talk about it right now instead. 04:16, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

I was always against the complete replacement of renders, but I just want to say something Galaxy seems to be missing. Renders were NEVER mandatory. In any means, they were never, ever mandatory. They were just ideal. A render can always be replaced by another image if it was better. That poll that lost didn't mean renders should always stay. It meant renders shouldn't leave. If that poll won, you could still replace every image with a better one. 20:35, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

How about this? Instead of complaining about the result of this forum, we make a category called "Inadequate Profile and Portrait Images" and a template to tag them all with? It would be different from Category:Low Quality Images in that it would refer to the content of the picture rather than the quality of the image.

Is there anyone out there who can make that? 01:09, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Would be easy, but is it really worth it? I mean, how many such pics are there? If there are 5 or so, they will probably be fixed quickly, and the category will be forgotten straightaway…

I would say there are actually a fair amount, especially if you include LQ images and portraits. Plus, there's not really a good place to put them now, since they don't really fall under the category of LQ alone, and the LQ template does not allow for a reason to be stated. Also, if there are any more renders hiding out somewhere, we could have a place to put them and let this forum die. 18:14, October 4, 2012 (UTC)

OK, I'll do it.

There: Category:Inadequate_Profile_and_Portrait_Images and Template:BadProfile.

Discussion 3
I wanted to reopen this because it's clear this "no-render rule" has created a small problem. There was an edit war with this image recently because of the render being much higher quality than the image that was provided. Now, I know there's now been a (somewhat) high quality image that's been settled, but the war was still caused by this rule. Another example is this image. The anime picture is so blurry, while the render picture is clear enough. I'm not saying renders should be the only option, but they should at least be allowed. Renders aren't always lower quality, and this is proof. We need to re-allow renders so we can avoid situations like this in the future. 05:25, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

Renders are low quality, always. 05:26, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

Wholehearted agreement with Nada. When the only other options are blurry crap, we should take the clearly better option of the render. 05:32, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

So.. the image that isn't a render then. 05:31, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

Clearly those blurry images aren't renders. 05:38, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

So can we re-allow them now, so there's more choices we can have for our images? 04:59, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

I'm against it.Images that come from the anime/manga should always b prefered. 11:42, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

Nope Nada. Discussion isn't even close to over. 12:52, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

Gal, when you say that Renders are always low-quality, that may be true, but in some situations and cases, the Renders are at least proven better quality-wise than the Anime and Manga Images. In most cases though, Anime and Manga images are a 100 times better, yes, but they should at least be allowed if the Manga and Anime haven't got a better one. That's my two cents at least... WU out -  13:26, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

When there are literally no other HQ images available, such as with most images from Z until recently, we should use renders until an image that is truly better than the render appears. We shouldn't think about re-instating renders for older characters where we've already replaced them. We should allow them to be used for new characters (or old characters with new post-TS appearances) when the only other options are terrible. 16:48, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

So, now what? WU out -  16:09, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Kill renders. 17:42, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

What about an answer to mine-and-JSD's statesments? WU out -  17:46, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Renders are always awful. 17:48, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

But in the case where the non-renders are more awful, what then? 17:59, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Yes SHL, maybe so, but as Nada says, in rare cases the Renders are actually proven better. WU out -  18:11, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

We get a better pic.E.g. is obviously more detailed than the image but we can wait till someone gets a better one. 18:13, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Wait until a better pic? You realize there are cases where a better pic won't be available for a long time, right? Look at how blurry this anime image is. We shouldn't have to "wait" for a HQ image to be made when a higher quality image is already available. We're supposed to look presentable at all times, not wait. 18:24, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

I hate that image too but I uploaded it because renders should be eliminated.I understand we will have to use renders  for characters that will appear in a new movie or in a tv special but we should replace them as soon as the animated version is online. 18:31, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Of course. I'm not saying we shouldn't replace renders when a better image is available. I'm saying when no better image is available, a render should used if it's better. Renders are currently against our policy, but they should be allowed. Not mandatory, not ideal, allowed. In cases where a good anime image isn't available but a good render is, logically we should use the render UNTIL a good anime image is available. What I'm trying to say is, use the best image and don't judge it based on what kind it is. 18:45, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Exactly what Nada said >_> WU out -  18:59, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Just like blanking out speech bubbles of scanlations until raw are available. A last resort on getting an image. 19:13, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Shut it SHL, we get it, you hate renders. I fully support renders and Nada. If you think about it, the drawers of the anime draw the renders and in some occasions Oda does. Renders were never mandatory, and I don't understand why we didn't just keep it as it was before, because anyone could have change bad quality renders with higher quality pictures. When I going through pictures and found out that Ain's picture got replaced, I was disappointed because it got replaced with a low quality picture. That is a great render in my opinion and it's high quality, plus it's full body compared to the one it got replaced with. There are exceptions, and I feel like Galaxy has brain washed other users to believe that all renders are terrible. 19:21, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

It's me gainst everybody.I feel you ST. 19:28, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry SHL I am also against u. Calua(Y)  19:38, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Everyone... 19:41, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Lol'd at the brain washing conspiracy. Renders are horrendous. Consistency should be our key priority on the wiki. Like Yata said, I'm fine with them being used if an anime image (or manga) isn't available, but if one is, we use the anime (or manga) image. 20:13, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

If consistency means looking worse, then obviously it isn't the way to go. Besides, if we allow renders, that actually opens up more opportunities to use images. That's a GOOD thing. 20:15, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, allowing renders only when anime or manga alternatives aren't available is fine. But actually replacing anime images with them? No.  20:16, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

We allow renders only and only if no better pics are available. Once an anime/manga is available, we use that. That's a better idea than renders, I mean, I saw some renders that look outright like fanart. 20:20, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

But why not use renders if it simply looks better? Look at the Ains image again. It's so blurry and low quality, while the render is clear enough. That Kuzan war went back and forth between a render and an image that was blurry and incompletely drawn. Once a high quality image is available, we should use that. But when the anime image looks worse than the render, then why switch to it? 20:26, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Probably because anime images don't look worse than renders. The Ain render is quite terrible. It has the most pixels I've ever seen. It's also way too small for an infobox (234 × 474). Sizes like that cause the picture to bloat up, which is never good. 20:46, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

So don't bloat it up. It's better than using a blurry mess. 22:39, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

Then the image becomes too small, and can't be seen very well in the infobox. 23:50, April 16, 2013 (UTC)

I think the image's own size is large enough to see well. And of course, it's still much clearer. 00:47, April 17, 2013 (UTC)

Except not. 01:14, April 17, 2013 (UTC)

How is it not clearer? Because it's a render? Seems like a pretty biased view. Even the render of Kuzan's image was drawn more complete than the first proposed image, which was barely drawn at all. Yet it's better because it's not a render? 02:37, April 17, 2013 (UTC)