Forum:Allies Sections on Group Galleries

Given the long and messy discussion that's happened on Template talk:Ninja-Pirate-Mink-Samurai Alliance Gallery, as well as other various edit disputes, I feel this is an issue that should directly be addressed through a forum.

Many gallery templates for groups in the series, from pirate crews to families, have an "allies" section, however I often feel that the term "allies" is used rather loosely at times. In the Straw Hat Pirates gallery, it's been decided to include only groups that they formed an official alliance with out of necessity; however, in other group galleries, people frequently add people that a group has worked with at some point, or friends of the group. I feel like, to best streamline galleries and prevent edit wars over who's included, that we stick to the "Straw Hat model" for all galleries, and only include people and groups that the group has officially formed an alliance pact with.

By saying that, I specifically mean:
 * No informal team-ups
 * In the case of family galleries, an alliance should only be added if either every known member of the family is in the alliance, or there is a clearly defined leader of the family (such as Momonosuke or Big Mom) who officially forms the alliance. A group that teams up with a random family member shouldn't go on the family gallery, and if a random family member forms an alliance with someone, they, not their family, should go on the group's gallery as an ally.
 * If the group in question is itself an alliance, like the Ninja-Pirate-Mink-Samurai Alliance, then only people who join the alliance to take part in their goal should be included. Not people who informally team up with an alliance member or members for unrelated purposes in the process.

Please discuss below. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 17:55, April 3, 2020 (UTC)

Discussion
I agree with everything above. I thought this was already the standard policy. 11:12, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

I also agree and thought this was the standard, if not already our policy. 15:24, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

So basically, allies are alliances only? So the whole Kaido-Doflamingo-Caesar underworld dealing are excluded? What about the Riku Family whose all living members are the Straw Hats allies? Are the straw Hats allies with the Nefertari Family even though only about half of them actually took part in helping them?

There will always be exceptions that the rules can't cover, so having rules that are too general won't solve anything. What exactly is consider "formal"? The Revolutionary Army housed Robin during the timeskip, and key members of the group have close ties with Luffy, is the whole organization the Straw Hats allies? The Riku and Nefertari families were helped by some of the Straw Hats, and in return, protected them from Marines, so are the allies with the whole crew? Rhavkin (talk) 18:50, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

Robin is an official affiliate of the Revolutionary Army. She worked with them outside of her capability as a Straw Hat, so you don't need the Straw Hat Pirates to be considered allies of the RA.

The Kaido-Doflamingo-Caesar underworld dealing was definitely formal since it was an actual business partnership with a producer, seller and buyer. KingCannon (talk) 19:32, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

I was trying to note the connection of the RA to the SH, not just Luffy (I forgot to add the whole Kuma in Sabaody and Sanji and Ivankov), and the Kaido-Doflamingo-Caesar was formal, but not an alliance. Rhavkin (talk) 19:40, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

I think for a teamup to be considered formal, there needs to be some sort of discussion and mutual understanding of the people in question, like how we saw with Hody-Decken and the Straw Hearts. Or at least activities that imply such a thing happened. We know, for example, how the Caesar-Doflamingo-Kaido relationship works, meaning they must have had some sort of talk previously in order for their business dealing to actually exist. That sorta stuff just doesn't come into existing by itself.

The RA are not formally allies of the Straw Hats because their teamups are often sudden and situational, not to mention one-sided. Dragon, Kuma and Sabo have all rescued the SH in various situations, but the SH themselves never really ackowledged the goals of the Revolutionaries, thus they cannot be considered formal allies. KingCannon (talk) 19:54, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

By that rule, G-5 under Smoker command are allies to the Heart Pirates, since their leaders had an understanding, and the Saruyama Alliance is one sided, since Cricket did not help any of his partners crews jobs, and they joined his quest. Rhavkin (talk) 20:02, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

The simple fact that Saruyama Alliance is a term means the alliance is formal. They had the legend of Mont Blanc Noland as a "formal" tie/goal and acknowledged each other as partners. They even lived together.

Also, I would argue G-5 was a circumstantial teamup. Yes, there was an understanding, but it was done when Smoker had little choice in the matter and was under Law's thumb, plus a quick need to act. It was not like the Straw Hats and Law, when they had time to discuss what to do and who to face in the future.KingCannon (talk) 20:22, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

Of course they are an alliance, I was saying that being allies doesn't mean it needs to be mutual. G-5 didn't arrest Law and the Straw Hats even after they won, and the words of the G-5 about liking them has nothing to do with Smoker's "little choice in the matter". We are getting into specifics, The point is you can be "allies" outside of an official "alliance".

I suggest something more in the lines of "an ally is a person and or group, who had a key part in achieving the main goal", so for example, the Straw Hats (at the time) are allies of the Saruyama Alliance, but Smoker and Tama aren't of the NPMSA. Rhavkin (talk) 20:46, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

I consider business partnerships to be an alliance, because they are official pacts rather than informal teamups. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 20:47, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

A general rule is tough to go by, because there will always be exceptions. But we have to ask ourselves: Is this too many allies? Or is this ally absolutely necessary? Template galleries were designed to show members first and foremost. Allies is absolutely optional. When the majority of the template is just filled with allies, then they become unnecessary. Also, I agree the Straw Hats are allies of the Saruyama Alliance, but it really isn't necessary to go and create an ally section just to put the Straw Hats there.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 23:47, April 4, 2020 (UTC)

Majority. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 22:36, April 10, 2020 (UTC)

What majority? We are still discussing the definition of "ally" since the general rule in a can of worms. Rhavkin (talk) 05:57, April 11, 2020 (UTC)

We seem to have a pretty good system in place with the Straw Hats gallery, which is what I'm suggesting all galleries move towards. If we want to get rid of "Affiliations" like business partnerships and the Shichibukai I'm all for that. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 07:46, April 11, 2020 (UTC)

I agree with the "like the Straw Hats Gallery" method, but the definition of "ally" and "affiliate" are unclear:
 * Duration: The alliance of the Straw Hats with the Franky Family and Galley-La, and with the Fire Tank Pirates had lasted less then a day, like the alliance of the New Fish-Man and Flying Pirates, yet the Alabasta royals traveled with and\or protected the Straw Hats for several days. How is one an ally and the other isn't?
 * Assistance: The Straw Hats learned about Skypiea from the Saruyama Alliance, and were the ones who were responsible for their quest fulfillment. Kaido's dream of an all Zoan crew was close to fulfillment by Caesar and Doflamingo. Business partnerships you mentioned earlier include hired guns and mercenaries, yet the Koala Mercenaries aren't in the Baroque Works Gallery, despite having it's color scheme and being in the infobox.
 * Cooperativeness: The New Fish-Man-Flying Pirates alliance ended poorly, as was the Kid-Hawkins-On Air alliance, and their are still listed despite the latter being a ruse from the start. We can't really call Apoo their ally if there was no real intent for him to be their ally.

I suggested a definition a week ago, and whether it is proper or not, a definition is needed to say what counts. Of course there will be expectations, but we can discuses those on a case by case. Rhavkin (talk) 08:11, April 11, 2020 (UTC)

Personally, I don't like how Galley-La and Franky Family are on the Straw Hats gallery. I think it looks bad even if they were official alliances because, as Rhavkin said, they lasted a mere few hours. A general "rule" is bad because one rule is bound to have flaws, but I think we should move towards the Straw Hat gallery standards for the time being. I feel like duration and degree of cooperation is really important because imagine if Big Mom and Kaido end up stabbing each other in a few chapters - under no condition would I put that in a gallery of Big Mom Pirates or Beast Pirates. Nightmare Pirates (talk) 00:59, April 12, 2020 (UTC)

Actually, I was the one who asked for the FF-GL alliance to be added, but I thought it could be just be added once like the Heart Pirates Gallery with the NPMSA Portrait. On that note, why do we have the portrait in the Heart, Kozuki, Mink, and Kid Galleries, but have most individual groups in the SH Gallery? Rhavkin (talk) 06:59, April 12, 2020 (UTC)

The length of an alliance doesn't make it not an alliance. SeaTerror (talk) 10:02, April 12, 2020 (UTC)

I have to agree with that. Duration is irrelevant.

Same for cooperativeness. Luffy barely listens to Law, but they still formed an alliance. What's important, though, is that there was a formal agreement to join forces.

I think a proposal or announcement scene or statement of some sort is necessary to count as an actual alliance. Like how Law went after the Straw Hats. Or Decken and Hody shaking hands. Or how Kaido and Big Mom announced their alliance to the Beasts Pirates.

Otherwise, it's just an informal teamup.KingCannon (talk) 13:23, April 12, 2020 (UTC)