Talk:Okama

Gender
Gender =/= sex

I did an edit on this page earlier but it was removed. "most do not seem to hide their real genders," is a bad line because okama IS their gender. And 'real gender' is a loaded pair of words, implying that identifying with anything but your sex is something fake. Most okama are male by their sex, and their gender is okama. They're not hiding anything, they're being as straight-forward about themselves as possible.

85.76.5.191 12:21, December 8, 2014 (UTC)Anon

Okama as Gender
This does not seem to have been pointed out, but in Vivre Card, the genders of Ivankov, Inazuma, and Bon Kurei are all given as "Newkama" rather than Male. Thus, I believe it would be proper to place Category:Okama in the Characters by Gender category and eliminate the Male Characters category from the okamas' pages. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 17:40, April 15, 2019 (UTC)

So the Okama category is already under Characters by Gender, just removing the male category is on the table. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 17:44, April 15, 2019 (UTC)

That's just a joke. Also it says nothing about the other named okama like Elizabeth which wouldn't be a newkama. SeaTerror (talk) 17:54, April 15, 2019 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be "Category:Newkama" that goes under Characters by Gender, then? We don't know yet how regular okama are classified. 18:00, April 15, 2019 (UTC)

While we're on the topic, why is Ballet in both Male and Female characters? Rhavkin (talk) 19:13, April 15, 2019 (UTC)

Tibany was classified as a Newkama by Vivre Card, and being an okama or newkama isn't a joke, it's an actual group.

I'm not opposed to making a new category for Newkama, seems like Okama-related stuff could use a lot of overhaul here.

Bellet is in both categories because he's currently female and formerly male, without willingly undergoing a sex change/becoming an okama. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 19:49, April 15, 2019 (UTC)

A character can't be both. Every Deceased character was formerly alive, and we do not have a lot a multi-character pages for the sole reason that the page can't be categorize as both. Also, as you mentioned, there are characters who are listed as both male and okama, so if one category negates the other, I think male and female are even more of a negation given that they opposite by definition. Rhavkin (talk) 19:59, April 15, 2019 (UTC)

Then the vivre card is wrong again since it was flat out stated Newkama were Level 5.5 members in the manga. SeaTerror (talk) 21:47, April 15, 2019 (UTC)

Ok. So I'm cool with removing Male Characters from Bellet - any objections to removing Male Characters from the other okama and having Okama/Newkama take their place? Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 03:24, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

There's no reason to remove Bellet from the male category. SeaTerror (talk) 06:04, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

She is not a male. Rhavkin (talk) 06:17, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

Okama/Newkama should be treated as a gender category. Those characters switch between both or try to embody both. With Ivankov's return to Momoiro Island, the Okama there could reasonably have become Newkama, like Tibany.

As for Bellett, the female category is problematic (like much of Oda's handling transgender issues). Our category is in regards to "gender", not "biological sex"; Ivankov's hormones change Bellett's sex so he's a male trapped in a female body. Listing Bellett as female reinforces the idea that biological sex overrides gender identity. Similarly we didn't re-categorize the Straw Hats when Law shuffled their minds and bodies. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 16:13, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

We do not know if Ballet accepted the change so we can't be certain that this is a "man trapped in a woman's body" situation. And if Ivankov's DF is relevant, then both Ivankov and Inazuma who were seen as both and are confirmed okama are all three. Judging by the definition in the opening paragraph of this article, Ballet should actually be categorized as an okama as well. Rhavkin (talk) 16:21, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

Ivankov said Bellet was a ways off from becoming an okama. Unlike his father, who wanted to be a woman, Bellet was transformed against his will. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 16:32, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

I'm not saying she is an okama, I'm pointing out that the biological sex topic has been addressed. Rhavkin (talk) 16:34, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

What part of Bellett's reaction suggests he wants or accepts the change? He tells Ivankov to stop and runs away in embarrassment after. Anything beyond that is speculation, which doesn't belong on the wiki. And no, Ivankov and Inazuma would not be listed under all three because whether they're in male or female bodies, they are still okama. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 16:36, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

The fact that it's been two years and Ivankov wasn't there to change her back, and comparing to when Law swapped personalities, and how everyone stayed with the stereotypical male\female behaviors, the fact that Ballet covered her chest and crotch means she at least partly accepted her new gender. Which is why I think she should be categorize as female character only. Rhavkin (talk) 17:47, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

Bellett's Vivre Card listing is set to be released on the next EX characters batch at the beginning of May, so that issue can be debated further on Talk:Bellett after seeing what the card says. The topic here should focus on Kaido's suggestion. 18:12, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

Okay, so Ballet specifically is on hold, but the issue remains: Can a character have two genders? I say no, and that the male category should be removed from the okamas pages. Rhavkin (talk) 18:27, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

Okama means tranvestite. They don't "switch genders" because transvestites are not transgenders. SeaTerror (talk) 19:20, April 16, 2019 (UTC)

Cross-dressing is classified as gender nonconformity, meaning they aren't males nor females. A different category is the best option. Rhavkin (talk) 19:30, April 16, 2019 (UTC)