Talk:Monet

Name
Harpy isn't part of the name... is like saying "dr." or "centaur" before the name...

Its the same has Dragons his name is the one of the beast and with her its probably the same. 12:47, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

In the dragon's case only the type of animal was given (Dragon), no name so it's not the same case. If the dragon was called "John" the article wouldn't have been named "Dragon John", but simply "John". Another example: we have Eyelashes not "Camel Eyelashes".

http://thumbnails41.imagebam.com/18194/b55fe4181932619.jpg You can clearly see that harpy was not meant as part of her name, but rather as her race. 13:39, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

It's clear her name is Mone.

its clear her name is Harpy Mone as it was in a box and even in the raw the Harpy was written ( link ) 14:15, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

Change it back Jaimini626, as the others above said, "Harpy" was meant to show what race she is. Its not part of her name.94.254.85.216 14:36, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

Dudes, the manga says 'Harpy Mone' ... Harpy is not a title.. Then change Doc Q to simple 'Q' .. I dont get it..

Dude, look at the raw. It says Harpy in english letters, than her name in Kanji. It's clearly not part of her name. 18:09, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

So? The 'D' on Luffy is in english in the kanji.. Are you saying its not part of his name?

i agree with lpk and x. Her name is Harpy Mone and not Mone 18:31, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

Apparently it should Monet Are You Serious 19:13, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

I uploaded her raw infobox for anyone who wants to see. & I agree with Are You Serious, I think her name is either "Monet, Monnet, or Monnett" (variants of a French name, so the 't' is silent).
 * 海賊-姫 19:55, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

@LPK: Doc Q is a pun, if "Doc" was the profession, than it would have been "Doctor" like "Doctor Vegapunk". Quite often the name itself is a reference to the profession or other traits in another language.


 * Another example: if Harpy is part of the name then Gonbe should be named "Cat Gonbe" o Kokoro "Station Master Kokoro".

I'd say the "Harpy" is something like an epithet that names her race. I don't think it belongs to the name. We should make a poll to determine how to name the page and end the re-naming war. 20:25, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

I think Monet would be best. We did the same thing with the Bellamy Pirate Muret, and that's worked out just fine. As for harpy, it isn't anything, it's just saying her species, like with Gonbe. Remember after he was introduced as Cat Gonbe, there was the disclaimer, "although he's really a rabbit". No need for harpy. 20:55, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

I've already left a message for Jopie and Klobis, they'll settle this matter. No need for a poll. 22:32, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

Animal?
I can't help seeing her more like a possible ability user who transformed both legs and arms just like Marco did in Chapter 557 to attack Akainu. Her species hasn't simply been classified yet. -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 18:25, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

If we talk about speculations, I rather see her along with the centaurs as an experiment of some sorts (Brownbeard was a normal human after all). I am a bit hesitating to classify them as "animals" since if they are indeed guinea pigs, then they are not really animals, but let's wait and see.

Make what you will of this pic in ch 666.

http://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/666/6

I personally found it interesting how Monet is seen not wearing the "artificial legs" that Caesar made and how it looks like she was not paralyzed from her lower body like the rest of the prisoners.

109.228.163.199 19:02, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

Chapter 671 may have given us the first hint that Monet could be a Zoan. Law said that he wanted to borrow her powers, granted though he could have meant powers as in her science knowledge or something like that. Still I found it interesting.94.254.85.175 12:49, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

If she really was a Zoan, then why not just transform back to human form to make reading books easier, rather then having to use her wings (which I'd imagine to be quite uncomfortable)? No, it's more likely he was just referring to her ability of flight thanks to the wings, or even her intellectual ability. 12:55, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

Wait for it to be explained.

Law used the word "Nouryoku" (能力), which has pretty much always been used in the context of Devil Fruit abilities, and put emphasis on the word (with the little dots Japanese people put on the side). This isn't proof that she's a Zoan, but it's likely to be at least some kind of Devil Fruit. Zodiaque 13:03, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

As for your question KuroAshi on why Monet would not just transform back to human form if she really was a Zoan, maybe she's just like Caesar and prefers to be in a transformed state.94.254.85.175 13:08, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

"Law used the word "Nouryoku" (能力), which has pretty much always been used in the context of Devil Fruit abilities" Pics or it didn't happen. SeaTerror 16:20, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/671/nouryoku.png Is this good enough? Zodiaque 22:38, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

You said it has always been used for context of Devil Fruit abilities. I'm still waiting for those pics. SeaTerror 22:59, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

You ignored my use of the words "pretty much", and the fact that he put special emphasis on the word. Also, uploading the entire manga would be in breach of copyright. If you find an exception let me know, otherwise stop trolling. Zodiaque 00:59, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

You're still going to have to provide proof then. Just because you say its true doesn't mean it is. SeaTerror 02:04, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

SeaTerror, Zodiaque has provided more than enough proof. Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it isn't true, so back off. I've heard about Nouryoku being used to described Devil Fruit abilities like that, so I can attest that he knows what he's talking about. Chill out and trust people once in a while. 06:09, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

Antagonist
Since Monet is CC's subordinate shouldn't she be in the Antagonists category as well?

09:07, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

Tashigi is with Smoker too, but she is not an antagonist.

Mone vs Monet
Can somebody please clear this. Many translator seem to use Monet over Mone. Mangastream used Mone, but now they switched to Monet. Since the majority of translators are with Monet, I not sure which one to follow. However I know for a fact that Carlos (cnet) uses Mone. Cnet is the most trusted translator next to Stephan. But since Stephan is with VIZ now, it is just cnet. I understand in French Monet is spoken with a silent "t", so Mone. But not sure if our Mone/Monet is based on a French name. --- Billa

Cnet would be more trusted translator than Stephan since scanlators generally translate more directly. Either way the name doesn't really matter. Just wait for Oda to romanize it. SeaTerror 18:04, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Member of "Joker's" crew as well?
So Vergo turns out to be a vice admiral + head of the G5 base but is in truth a pirate member of Joker's crew, Joker being Doflamingo. I was thinking, does this all mean that Monet is also part of Doflamingo's crew since she is allied with Vergo and all? What do you think? I suppose we should just wait with writing anything until Oda officialy confirms or de-confirms it.81.170.200.236 12:04, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Obviously she is. Vergo sent her as a spy. Means he trust her. But to begin with, I don't think they have usual crew setup. More like a organization. BlackHair 12:50, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

Astrologist Monet?
Have listened to Greg theories about her on the One Piece Podcast(ep 05-22). She seem to be infatuated with the stars and the moon if you take a closer look at her scenes. Books with star and clip(eclipse) on it. How she was normal in the past, and she willingly got the Wing modifications. Her name and glasses being an allusion to Monets Starry Night painting.

Greg is nuts so no. SeaTerror 03:03, July 10, 2012 (UTC)

I have never seen a bigger pile of bullshit in my entire life. 03:13, July 10, 2012 (UTC)

Fucking bullshit, I'm going on to Facebook and calling this liar out. 04:16, July 10, 2012 (UTC)

Transformation
In her ability section it was said that Caesar stated that she can transform. Can someone show me where he said it, cause I don't remember that at all FirePit (talk) 03:18, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

nevermind, I saw it now. FirePit (talk) 03:28, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

(In)distinct laughter

 * Like many other characters, Monet has a distinct laugh, "Ufufufufu".

But ain't that only a pretty much standard female chuckle? -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 07:00, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

Yep. An AWC kept putting the line back in despite multiple users removing it a while ago. 07:34, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

Devil Fruit - or not?
Okay, Redon from APForums/Mangahelpers provided a RAW, and in that Luffy asked Monet the question about the "ability" by using the standard word for people who have Devil Fruit abilities Oda has used ever since the Arlong Arc: 能力者.

And going by the formula that Oda hasn't changed the usage of that word, it is pretty much confirmed that Kamakura is based on a Devil Fruit even though it's Luffy that asks Monet, and not Monet that introduces herself... The only questions that remain are "which one?" and "which type?" -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 17:55, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

While I would guess Paramecia, it's better to wait on specifics like that. For now we should just put that she has a Devil Fruit and what we've seen it do. In short, keep the section the way it is now until we learn more. 18:38, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

she is a devil fruit user .. !Devilchild~Nico~Robin (talk) 02:41, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

Assuming the wings are Law's doing, her transformation must be linked to this power. Kamakura is hard snow or something, and that is the one thing you wouldn't look twice at on the lab side of PH, allowing her to follow Law. So I'm going with Snow Logia. However I'd definately wait for more proof before we go saying what's power and what's not. After all, the power might be her wings not the wall...13th madman (talk) 20:31, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

According to the latest ch. 685, Monet is confirmed to be a Logia (holy crap, our first canon female Logia user!).94.254.95.13 09:46, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Monet also is able to create blizzards, isn't she? I think we have no add it to the articles. Aoshi shigamori (talk) 20:45, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Harpy Species?
Given that Monet was given wings &amp; talons via Law's devil fruit power as opposed to being born from a harpy, she doesn't really class as part of a harpy species does she? I move that it be removed from her description &amp; that the harpy species be removed from the species list. One might think that because she has the wings &amp; talons then she classes as a harpy, now, but you have to remember, according to what we've seen on Law's power thus far, she still has human feet and arms somewhere &amp; some bird is missing its wings &amp; talons somewhere, ergo both are still the same species in possession of the same limbs, however removed from their bodies said limbs are.Petronec (talk) 04:17, November 1, 2012 (UTC)

Dead
Now, before someone says "who knows" and put her in the Kinemon situation, let's see the obvious: stabbed in the heart, collapsed and definitely dead. No arguments, right? I'm really getting tired of these edit wars, don't go saying she's a Logia so she survived the stab or something like that. 07:40, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

I totally agree. If her logia powers had activated, she wouldn't have spit out blood. She's done. 07:43, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. If she's not dead, Oda must really work hard to bring her back to life. She's definitely dead.

A bird may be able to survive an atom bomb, but I think a stab to the heart is fatal. Even the scene gives the mood that she died. She's dead. Definitely. 07:47, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, yes. She was stabbed clean through the heart. She's dead. &#34;I should thank you. After all, it was you who taught me the purpose of all life...the purpose of life is to end.&#34; -Smith (talk) 07:50, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

We may have an issue..

http://www.cracked.com/article_19698_7-deadly-things-you-wont-believe-most-people-survive.html

07:58, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Oh come on! I know it's rare for Oda to show a kill onscreen, especially not in a flashback. But 1/3 chance of survival... aren't we going too scientifically on this situation? 08:01, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

What is so wrong in adding that she simply got stabbed in the heart and collapsed? Why do we need to assume she is dead? I thought we don't like assumptions. - Racht  08:03, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

She's dead until confirmed otherwise (which is unlikely). &#34;I should thank you. After all, it was you who taught me the purpose of all life...the purpose of life is to end.&#34; -Smith (talk) 08:04, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Well Yata, it's also pretty weird that she would die just like this, and then the scene switches to Law smirking. Doesn't really fit the writing style of dead character moments. I still think she's dead, but.. still. 08:08, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Gal, if I had a nickel for every time you said "but...still" I'd be a clothesless man &#34;I should thank you. After all, it was you who taught me the purpose of all life...the purpose of life is to end.&#34; -Smith (talk) 08:12, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

He smirked because he scammed Caesar, he could never know that Monet died just at that moment.

Well it doesn't matter what Law is thinking at that moment Sewil, what matters is Oda's style. 08:15, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Oda's style? You mean "alive until proven otherwise?" SeaTerror (talk) 08:16, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

No no. Just the way he wrote the apparent "death". 08:18, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

I agree it's not Oda's style to kill off characters like this but I believe Oda might be trying to prove how really tough the New World is or maybe just it's an introduction to Doflamingo's real power.

Before the New World, Oda rarely kills. Ace's death might have been the first significant kill to set off that downward spiral, and now Smiley, Monet and Zephyr joins in confirmed deaths. 08:35, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Lol. Smiley.

Monet is a confirmed death? Did you use 1.21 gigawatts of electricity to find that out? SeaTerror (talk) 08:38, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Well. Zephyr doesn't count, but yeah Smiley. 08:42, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Well, why don't you try using that 1.21 gigawatts to shock some sense into anyone who believes Monet is not dead? Just saying... 08:44, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

The point is that Oda operates under alive until proven otherwise. There are numerous examples of this starting with characters such as Pell and going on throughout the series. It is stupid to say Monet is dead when we already know how Oda operates. SeaTerror (talk) 08:49, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

There is proof that Monet is dead. As you can clearly see, you don't see her alive. If I've learned one thing from Dawkins, it's that absence of evidence is evidence of absence. It's logical. Don't try to argue. 08:52, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Aww cmon Nada. Even though I agree that Monet is dead, that is flawed reasoning. "I don't see Garp alive, therefore he died of old age".

Just saying how your statement isn't as logical as you put it. 09:00, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Twas a joke. Franky, I thought this whole discussion was a joke. It's hard to take it seriously anymore. 09:04, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

In any case, she died unless she jumps back up. Period. 09:05, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

You mean like Brownbeard? SeaTerror (talk) 09:06, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Brownbeard was never actually seen getting killed.

(Edit conflict) He got blasted, not his head popped off. And if you're gonna be like this, then why not say Ace did not truly die, but climbed out of his grave and continuously pirated in secrecy? 09:11, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

There are only a few named non-flashback characters Oda has openly killed. Ace was one of them. SeaTerror (talk) 09:18, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Who's to actually say Pell just trained his pet eagle to fly with bombs and sacrifice himself while he sits at home writing NaruSasu fanfiction?

Now I'm just bullcrapping. Monet got stabbed, the feel of the scene makes it look like death, and Oda is implying that she is no more. If she lives, then Oda is bullcrapping us. But until he does point that out, let's just keep Monet in. It's too dramatic and too "what-a-twisty" to not be so. 09:19, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

She's dead. CC stabbed with intent to kill. Money wasn't able to detect CC stabbing her, so she couldn't have used her powers. She bled out the mouth, collapsed, and became unable to finish off herself by blowing everything up. She's dead. 17:47, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

She's dead. Anyone who disagrees should stop thinking retroactively. If we handle deaths a la carte, it will sharply cut arguments like this. We can't be scared of plot twists. She's dead until shown otherwise, I don't care what the odds of a person surviving a stabbing are. 18:29, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

We should always handle things the way Oda has always done it and that is keeping almost all characters alive. SeaTerror (talk) 16:45, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Mr. 11 17:02, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Also Tsumegeri Guards Rayleigh92 (talk) 17:10, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

And let's not forget the dozens of people outside the lab. 17:14, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Here. See for yourself how Oda "keeps every character alive".

Also.. Killer Giant. 17:48, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

The hell are we discussing this? She's dead. She got stabbed in the heart. She coughed up blood. She collapsed. If Oda whips up a total bullshit of how she survived a stab to the heart, in the later chapters then we put her as alive. Simple as that.

Unless you want to debate about whether Whitebeard and Ace are still alive? 18:00, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

I thought this was done ages ago. She's dead, duh. 18:37, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah it's done Yata. Seaterror is the only one really opposing it. 18:38, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

He always does... 23:19, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

"Keeping almost all characters alive" somehow = "keeps every character alive". Pell, Arlong, Brownbeard, Bon Kurei. If you want to claim coughing up blood = automatic death then I'm pretty sure Zoro had worst injuries than Monet throughout the series. SeaTerror (talk) 23:27, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Hey ST. Is Killer Giant confirmed dead? For all we know, he ate the a Yomi Yomi no Mi variation and is there to scare people. 23:31, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Try getting stabbed in the heart and then survive. If Oda wanted her to live, he wouldn't have 'killed' her this way. Now if Oda make her survive this fatal strike, I will lose all my faith to One Piece cause simply no one can die peacefully around here... 109.242.223.142 00:38, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

ST, if you're going to make fruitless arguments based on pure personal opinion alone (that being "Oda's style"), at least try to make them believable enough.

Monet is dead. End of story. &#34;I should thank you. After all, it was you who taught me the purpose of all life...the purpose of life is to end.&#34; -Smith (talk) 01:35, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

was posted at APforums. Discuss. 02:10, December 29, 2012 (UTC) 02:10, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

It looks like he stabbed her heart. What's there to discuss? 02:26, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, after realizing I could actually scroll down, it's completely speculative to say he missed, especially by that much. 02:44, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

Coffee I really doubt you actually read my last comment if you think everything I said is "fruitless opinion" Also DP scroll down where? All i see is the image. SeaTerror (talk) 03:32, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

It took me to the post on AP, not just the picture. I guess it changed or something. What Coffee means is that situations like these must be treated individually and not have previous similar situations as points of reference. Treat the past as if it doesn't exist when it comes to characters dying. 03:42, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

For the love of... SeaTerror ALWAYS argues no matter what every other people says. Tell us why is it so hard to accept the obvious: Caesar stabbed her directly in the heart, killing her. 08:26, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

So everyone agrees she is dead, and yet you hold back because a user that disagrees with every forum and talkpage here in this wiki says she can be alive. 109.242.223.142 13:46, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

How are we holding back? She's in the dead characters category and it's been written into her history. 18:39, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

Monet's heart was in a floating cube half a mile from the body it was pumping blood through, why are you guys attempting to apply logic to this situation? Monet's heart wasn't even stabbed very deeply. Whitebeard was shot 150 times, stabbed 50 times, shot with 30 cannonballs, had half of his face melted off, and he still basically died of old age. How can you possibly say with any confidence that a One Piece character is dead before it's been officially declared? Kaidou (talk) 10:50, January 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sadly, people on this wiki just seem to hate sticking to facts.

Which fact would that be? SeaTerror (talk) 18:48, February 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * The facts: she got stabbed in the heart, coughed up blood, and collapsed. No need to go further.


 * there is no proof monet is dead. none at all. just because someone falls of a bike doesn't mean they MUST have broken an arm or leg 96.55.178.237 23:42, February 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * So just because somebody got impaled through the heart, collapsed, and can't move means they're not dead? 00:14, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm just saying that just because she collapsed doesn't mean she is dead. Yes she got stabbed                through the heart, yes she did collapse. But this is a fictional world with nothing is impossible. We know only what we see- and that is: heart is stabbed, monet collapsed and for that one page she is unresponsive. For a wiki that puts up information based on fact, I don't believe it is the right thing to do to put up things based on inferences. I'm not saying Monet is alive or dead. I am just saying all we know is that something happened that probably killed Monet- not DID kill Monet My arguement is to change deceased to 'presumed deceased' because we don't know for sure whether or not she is gone for good. Changes could then later be made to alive or deceased when it is formally and explcitly presented to us in the manga. I hope I'm being clear here, this is my first time contributing to something like this. 96.55.178.237 01:51, February 10, 2013 (UTC)jo
 * I'm just saying that just because she collapsed doesn't mean she is dead. Yes she got stabbed                through the heart, yes she did collapse. But this is a fictional world with nothing is impossible. We know only what we see- and that is: heart is stabbed, monet collapsed and for that one page she is unresponsive. For a wiki that puts up information based on fact, I don't believe it is the right thing to do to put up things based on inferences. I'm not saying Monet is alive or dead. I am just saying all we know is that something happened that probably killed Monet- not DID kill Monet My arguement is to change deceased to 'presumed deceased' because we don't know for sure whether or not she is gone for good. Changes could then later be made to alive or deceased when it is formally and explcitly presented to us in the manga. I hope I'm being clear here, this is my first time contributing to something like this. 96.55.178.237 01:51, February 10, 2013 (UTC)jo


 * She was stabbed, in the heart, and we saw her go down. We have a cause, a body, and no reason for doubt (btw, "this is One Piece" isn't a reason). Those are the three criteria we look for before calling someone dead. That's why we haven't declared Vergo dead. No body. If she's alive later, then so be it, but until that happens, she's dead. We know we saw the heart get stabbed and she fell over after coughing up blood. That's all we need. If Caesar nicked it and she fell over, then you might have a better chance. But he didn't. She's dead, so drop the subject. 04:03, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * It seems I wasn't clear enough, I'll try to put it in more simple terms: I am not advocating whether or not she is alive or dead. I brought up what we know (stab/collapse/no response). I then said it can be inferred/presumed she is dead, the manga doesn't explicity tell us this or as of yet follow up her status. We can say she is probably dead due to the premises, but not with certainty like Ace+Whitebeard. BTW, the "One Piece reason" is used to simply say that things can happen in One Piece that doesn't/cannot happen in real life (logia, haki, etc)= reason for doubt. Your criterian would fit everyone who was on the ground during the Marineford War- we can't say they are dead- but probably dead... I am simply giving my opinion on the conflict here, this is a talk page. I don't care if you disagree, I just hope you understand what I'm trying to say :) 96.55.178.237 00:59, February 11, 2013 (UTC) jo 96.55.178.237 20:45, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand your point and my belief is the same as yours.Movieseeker (talk) 13:42, February 10, 2013 (UTC)MovieseekerMovieseeker (talk)


 * The fact that she is a logia doesn't change anything.Ceasar stabed the heart because he thought it belonged to Smoker (who is also a logia) with the intension to kill him.Monet can't be alive. 14:03, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

I still don't get why it is so important to you all to state unconfirmed facts in the articles. We know that she got stabbed in the heart, coughed up blood, and collapsed. Let's just state these facts and leave the conclusion to the reader. Stating that she's dead makes it look like we know more, but we don't. It gives no information to the reader (it's quite the contrary actually).

All right. Everyone let's stop talking about this and wait for the next chapters. I already held my opinion to myself all this time. I am also sick of listening to these. I will wait patiently for the future chapters. I hope this is the last comment to make, please no more and keep your beliefs to yourself and see the next progress of this story. Movieseeker (talk) 15:23, February 10, 2013 (UTC) 15:22, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

I kind of agree Sff. It technically is speculation. 20:47, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

It is. We shouldn't allow any speculation even if its the most likely thing. Like how I remove Doflamingo from the Devil Fruit article or whatever. SeaTerror (talk) 21:39, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

Then what do we have that says she's alive or even might be? (and let's stick to this case only and not draw on previous events, ok?) 22:01, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

All we need to say is that she collapsed. There's no evidence for either side of dead or alive, other than speculation. 22:03, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

So getting stabbed in the heart isn't evidence? 22:29, February 10, 2013 (UTC)

For the love of God. What do you guys want to see to finally say that a person in One Piece died? Do you want Oda to jump in a panel wink at you and say 'She's dead'.? She was stabbed in the heart, after Law's successful plan. Get over it..

Getting stabbed in the heart could certainly mean she's dead, but it doesn't mean she can't survive it. Once again, without a definitely lifeless body, it's speculation. 00:10, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Also, you both seem to be letting your stances on death in OP get in the way of how a wiki should be run, on facts. 00:12, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

How is it speculation? We saw exactly what happened. She being dead is your fact, right there. I don't care if you mark her down as dead in the wiki or not, just have awareness when a character dies..

Unlike most "deaths" in OP, this one was handled differently. She was stabbed with lethal intent, and she was shown reacting to the death blow, and her lifeless body was shown later in the chapter (the second to last page of Chapter 694, during Law's monologue). It also just makes sense writing-wise, because it's clear from how Oda wrote it that Monet is dead. Law's line of "Do unto others as they would do to you" is partly said in a panel where we are shown the lifeless body of Monet, who was about to kill everyone on the island right before she was killed herself. She's dead, and there's no writing twist to come out of it. She's dead. 00:35, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Doesn't matter. Just because she's unconscious doesn't mean she's dead. How hard is it for you to understand that unless we have a for sure answer, we are just speculating. Even I think she's dead, and I still know that it's speculation 100%. Doesn't matter if "it's obvious", because a lot of things are "obvious", but still speculation. 00:38, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

"I saw Brownbeard get shot in the face! He's dead, and there's no writing twist to come out of it. He's dead".

...Right. 00:40, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

You're taking this too seriously. How the fuck is it speculation if she was stabbed in the heart, died in front of our eyes before pushing the button and plus we saw her dead body after a while. You have to grow up and learn what's the meaning of death.. And also, don't say 'even I think she's dead', either you do or you don't. Don't support her death if you believe she is alive just so if it backfires you can say you were right. You're defending her, cut the crap.

No... I think she's dead, but it's still speculation to put opinions on the page, so you can cut the crap.

She didn't "die" in front of ours eyes. She collapsed in front of our eyes. Maybe she's unconcious? Maybe she's writhing in pain, unable to move. Maybe she's just sitting there? Maybe she's dead? Speculation to add any of these things, other than "she collapsed". We saw a motionless body, but is it motionless because she's unconcious? Is it motionless because she can't move? Is it motionless because she's dead? Speculation to add any of these things, other than "she was seen collapsed on the floor".

Once again I'll say I myself think Monet is dead, but that doesn't mean I'm letting that get in the way of how an article should be written (completely unspeculative.) 00:53, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Hahaha, If you think Monet being dead is speculation (or she's unconcious(wtf)) then I don't have anything else to say. I'm done..

Haha if you don't think Monet being dead is speculation (or she's not unconcious (wtf)), then I don't have anything else to say. I'm done..

Anybody with a good counterargument other than they "think she's dead"? 01:02, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Pell, Brownbeard, Bon Kurei. Enjoy those links, LPK. SeaTerror (talk) 01:08, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Brownbeard is the only one of those that works. Since we saw him get shot in the face. 01:10, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

They were all speculated to be dead is the point. I forgot Kinemon anyway. SeaTerror (talk) 01:11, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Lacuba is another good one. Doctors pronounced him dead on the scene.. but he's alive. 01:13, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Pell: Never saw his dead body. Brownbeard: If he's an example then Usopp too when the Franky Family beat the shit out of him. Same condition. Bentham: Last thing we saw was his face, Magellan didn't hit him. Kinemon: He was alive in the next chapter. Lacuba didn't even participate in the plot of the series. And I don't 'think' she is dead, I 'know' she is dead. Me and everyone else who knows when a person fuckin dies. OK?

You know nothing, so stop speaking like you do (Unless you're Oda, which I doubt).

Lol'd at your comparison of Brownbeard to Usopp. We saw Usopp alive and well after that, and he didn't get shot in the face. Chopper pronounced Brownbeard dead, and he's a doctor!

Kinemon wasn't alive in the next chapter.

You're disregarding characters because they're insignificant? ...Right.. 01:20, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

I want evidence that isn't just "she's dead because she's dead". It's not the way a wiki works. 01:23, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

I'm Oda?? Or you who want to change the whole fuckin series? And she's dead because her hear was stabbed. That's your reason, right there. So you wait for someone to say out of the blue 'Monet is dead' ooor to see Monet's dead body one more time. Sorry not dead body, sorry, 'unconcious' body..

Change the whole series? I loled. If the entire series was changed then Pell and others would have been dead. You and others just don't know how Oda works. I'll laugh when Monet is revealed to be alive. SeaTerror (talk) 01:29, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

"She's dead because her heart was stabbed". Maybe. "She's unconcious because her heart was stabbed". Maybe. "She's in pain because her heart was stabbed". Maybe. What we need is CONFIRMATION. A character simply saying that she's dead, or her body being discovered, and pronounced dead is fine enough, but without any of that, it is speculation whether you think so or not. 01:31, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Changin the series by trying to change the plot. Dude, now seriously tell me how can someone be only in pain when his/her heart is stabbed. Don't try to find a way for her to be alive. Put the wiki aside, answer me like a reader. What do you think?

And ST, so do I man, I wanna see what you have to say when Monet is 'really' dead. Okay, Galaxy9000 is protectin this thing I get that, but ST you strongly believe 100% that she is alive. I'm pretty sure you fuckin do.

Because you wouldn't die immediately when your heart was stabbed anyways. I already told you, I think she's dead, but in the wiki sense, she shouldn't be. 01:41, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

I don't "believe" Monet is alive. I KNOW she is. Just like how you KNOW she is dead. SeaTerror (talk) 01:44, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Oda is feeding the fact that she's dead to us on a silver spoon. From a literary perspective (which is one that we, as a wiki about a literary work, are allowed to take) she's dead. Law's words of "Do unto others as they would do to you" while Monet's body is shown is not something done for the fuck of it. She died while trying to kill everyone. It's Oda showing us that she's dead, because that is the only logical reason for a writer to choose to show her body there. We don't need to have everything confirmed by characters, we can have things confirmed by the way things are portrayed too. 01:47, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

No JSD. I remember in Marineford where we saw a lot of "bodies", but those people got back up too.

All of it is still speculation because not every person will see it from that point of view. 01:49, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Just like how Pell was revealed to be dead after being portrayed "sacrificing" himself. SeaTerror (talk) 01:50, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

@Galaxy She didn't die immediately, she had a little monologue and blah blah blah stuff happened and collapsed. Now you're comparing Monet to a marine soldier??? But anyways this could go on and on forever. I'm done. JustSomeDude gets it..

And ST if you're trolling then you didnt even make me smile, If you're serious then god you're a dumbass..

Why did you just call God a dumbass? SeaTerror (talk) 01:53, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

JSD really isn't getting it at all. He's using his own opinion about Oda's literary usage in order to speculate a point

LPK, she was stabbed after that dialogue. There's nothing pointing to her death other than speculation about the scene. The same speculation can be applied to her being alive. 01:54, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Hi guys, I'm back with an account. I'm glad my resurection of this has ignited a debate. And I support Galaxy's statement that one must be CONFIRMED to be dead to be listed as dead on the wiki. What happened to Monet PROBABLY killed her, we don't know if it did. I just want to clarifiy for people like LPK who think that those like me who go by fact and do not jump to conclusions means that we 100% believe she is alive, we don't. We are just saying there is no confirmation she is dead. Galaxy never said she was alive either. I hope you understand this time, LPK. What we are saying is Monet has not been confirmed dead in the manga, and in a wiki that works only with facts, assumptions should not be posted like facts. Therefore she is PRESUMED dead until it is undeniabley confirmed or she is shown to be alive. Please clear your mind of assumptions... XTraffy (talk) 01:56, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Yes I agree with XTraffy. I have been a fan with One Piece for 7 years. I am not 100% convinced she is dead due to my past experence. Movieseeker (talk) 01:59, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Let's look at some facts. Monet was already wounded at the time this happened, and she was stabbed in the heart by Caesar. On that same page, she coughs blood and collapses, unconscious. Next, we have Caesar wondering why Smoker is not dead. This means that his strike had enough power to kill Smoker. With this, not to mention that Monet has yet to reappear (unlike the other characters), she can be categorized as dead. 02:55, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

You used the facts and made your own conclusion, and assumption. :x XTraffy (talk) 03:10, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Like the person above me said PX, you're still just using your own conclusions from the facts. Just because Caesar "wonders" why Smoker isn't dead due to the stab, doesn't mean Monet is dead, and is yet another assumption. She coughed up blood, and either died, fell unconcious, or is writhing in pain on the floor, but we JUST DON'T KNOW, and therefore we shouldn't let our opinions affect the wiki article. 03:06, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

We've still been given a lot more to go off of than most other dead characters. I don't see how someone of Monet's caliber could survive being stabbed in the heart. But I was merely presenting my opinion on the matter. Don't we have a "presumed deceased" category just for this? 03:19, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, since the most adamant are afraid of taking any kind of stand, how about we think of it like this: None of us claim to be Oda, correct? Good. Now, Oda set up this situation with Monet because he wants us to think she's dead, so why not treat her as such? Are we that much better that we can say that we know what he's gonna do before he does it? For now, she's supposed to be dead, so let her be. If it turns out she's not, the category comes off. Hell, Smoker was dead for the week between losing his heart and the chapter after that and no one complained. Why? Because Oda wanted us to think he was dead, and we did. It's only looking at things face value that causes these problems. We're supposed to think she's dead, so let's think it,ok? 03:23, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Oda never wanted us to think Smoker was dead. If he was really in the category, then lol.

You keep using speculation as a reason too. "Oda wants us to think this". How do you know what Oda wants us to think? Maybe he wants us to think she collapsed, or maybe that she's writhing in pain?

The main point is that we really cannot be 100% sure, and unless we are ONE HUNDRED percent sure with no doubt (confirmation), then we should just leave the facts on the article, and that's all. Monet was stabbed in the heart and collapsed. 03:31, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Nobody complained because nobody noticed it. I would have removed it if I had seen you adding it. SeaTerror (talk) 03:33, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

In fact, I just happened to look at it. Jinbe removed the dead character category after you added it. SeaTerror (talk) 03:34, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Going off what PX said, here is a shot where CC is next to Monet's heart, which means that he would have known Smoker was still alive if the heart was still beating. Since the heart wasn't beating, then Monet was dead.

Going off what DP said, it's obvious that Oda wants us to think that Monet is explicitly dead. Look at what I've said in other recent posts if you still doubt that. Monet doesn't fit the "presumed deceased" category like Vergo or others, since her death was written in and has symbolic meaning to the story, and is not just some offscreen thing where he didn't want to show the death of someone. Since it's what Oda wants us to think (just like with Sabo) she should be considered dead. 03:45, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

If Oda wanted us to think she were still alive, we wouldn't be having this argument. 03:54, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Sabo is different. He was confirmed dead with the databook.

You keep spouting our the symbolism crap and such, but that's just an OPINION. You keep saying you know what Oda wants us to think, when you don't. "Oda wants us to think she's unconcious", "Oda wants us to think she's writhing in pain". It's all SPECULATION, so no... she shouldn't be considered dead to the wiki.

Also, there's no evidence that he heart wasn't beating, other than your speculation of the scene.

DP: We're having this argument because speculation is on the article. We have no idea what Oda wants.

Why is it so hard to understand that we should just take the category off until it's really confirmed? 03:57, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Galaxy summed up what i wanted to include. I just want to add that this wiki should only contain the facts, nothing else. I believe the Monet situation should have ended at her collapsing, maybe adding in the state of the building. Any further talk about her dying, which is a conclusion and right now, not supported by absoloute proof. Any further interpretations should be left to the reader. I've been coming to this website for a long time; although not that often. This is the first time I have seen something that I thought was completely off. Information is provided in the wiki that is not derived from explicit proof in the manga. And no, ones opinion on what Oda thinks we should think, or ones interpretation of the symbolic meaning is not enough to mean she is dead with certainty. Everyone has their own opinion and they should be able to come up on it themselves.

The wiki should only provide the facts, any interpretation or conclusions belong on a forum. The probability is high that Monet is dead, this is why I am pushing for a change to presumed deceased.

Also, if I knew about the "Smoker" situation I would have done something. But I only started to be active and only just made this account.

Also can someone somehow message me and tell me how to make my name pretty ^.^ XTraffy (talk) 04:25, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

If it contained nothing but facts then we'd look foolish since because there are just oh so many things could be easily concluded. The heart in the pic JSD linked isn't beating (when every other heart shown from that distance gave at least some indication of beating, ie small lines to show minute pulsations) and the stake is removed, meaning Caesar checked his work in stabbing it. Monet's death is confirmed in that regard, just not enough for you to be satisfied, since you only want information that comes right from the manga and won't believe anything else. 04:41, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Are you seriously trying to justify her death by saying you can't see small lines on a heart? You're really going too far to prove this when really your only evidence is your own interpretation of things. "Caesar checked his work" is not fact, and is merely your own speculation. 05:39, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Oh for the love of... so Otohime got shot through the heart and didn't die? What, she climbed out of her grave after the funeral mourners left, and went off to parts unknown? 11:03, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Bad example. Flashback characters don't count. SeaTerror (talk) 11:13, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Are you waiting a Databook or something to understand that she IS DEAD?It's obvious that she is dead as the people above me said,we have a a stabbed heart,an unmoving body and a reaction.What else do you want? 11:31, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

"Presumed deceased" category is better. She is "presumed" to be dead. --Klobis (talk) 11:39, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

She is clearly dead.As I 've already said we have enough evidence to consider her dead. 11:41, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Here's a better example. Ace. He and Monet both got pierced through a fatal point. They both coughed out blood. They both collapsed and are dead. Unless Ace climbed out of his grave and secretly returned to life. 19:29, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

You mean like how Kinemon and Brownbeard were said to be dead? SeaTerror (talk) 19:58, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

We had no evidence that Kinemon was dead.Brownbeard was pronounced dead by Chopper,what should we had done? 20:01, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Read the series. SeaTerror (talk) 20:05, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

I've already done. 21:11, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Read it again then. SeaTerror (talk) 21:21, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Kinemon wasn't stabbed, Brownbeard was a red herring. Don't compare and don't be rude.

I think there is some confusion on what I meant by confirmed dead. With this 'Ace jumping out of his grave' would mean there is no confirmed dead. A vaugue definition of confirmation from my point of view is just a formal aknowledgement of the death through first hand experience and characters coming into physical contact with the body or explicit recognition from the narrator that the character is dead. This is how we can confirm Ace and Whitebeard are dead. On the otherhand, Jaguar D. Saul and Nico Olivia are included in the dead category, which is fine. But in their wikis, Saul is only said to have been frozen. Even though it is highly probable that he is dead as he was frozen and we never see him again, we really don't have the grounds to say in the wiki he is dead. The same goes for Nico Olivia. Her wiki says that she is presumed to have perished with the rest of the scholars, presumed because we don't know. We know a heart was stabbed and Monet collapsed. We don't know if what really came of her though. XTraffy (talk) 22:45, February 11, 2013 (UTC) That would mean that Monet belongs in the category more than Saul and Olvia, which I'm okay with. 22:58, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if she was stabbed. There are many characters that should have been dead or in some cases speculated to be dead but revealed to be alive later. Pell is the biggest example. Also I don't think you know what a red herring is. SeaTerror (talk) 00:03, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Pell was hidden by the explosion's flash, so it was hard to confirm at the time. Ace and Monet, on the other hand, was seen being struck in the vital, and dropping dead. 01:38, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

It seems you have dismissed the discussion above or neglected to read it. What we know what happened to Monet is: a vital organ is stabbed and she collapsed to the floor. 'Dropping dead' is what you think happened as the facts support it. But this isn't a fact... yet. Only facts with citations should be on the wiki.

@DancePowderer I agree with you that given the situations Monet does belong in the category more than Saul and Olivia. Although all three are in this category, Saul and Olivia's wikis only provide the facts and do not infer that they are dead. Only what we really know with certainty is on the wikis. But for Monet the wiki says she is killed by Caeser, which we do not know for sure. We just know that a heart is stabbed and she fell over. This is what should be on the wiki, not that she is killed. XTraffy (talk) 02:44, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

The wiki does work with facts but when a character is obviously dead,we should consider him dead.You brought Pell as an example,right?We never saw Pell dying on screen,we just saw the bomb exploding.With that logic,we should consider Olvia,Saul,the rest of the citizens of Ohara and many other characters alive too. 06:32, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Straw Hat Luffy- My arguement personally is not to say that Monet is alive. I don't really care if she gets removed from the Dead Characters category. As characters such as Olivia and Saul on it, I believe it is appropriate for her to be on it. Unless there is a big change and many of those characters and moved to presumed deceased. My logic is that Monet's wiki should not say that she is 'killed' because all we know is that a heart got stabbed and Monet collapsed. We should wait until it is confirmed that she is dead explicitly before adding that she was killed by Caeser. I used the case of Olivia and Saul as their wikis only state what we know (what we actually saw). They don't go off coming to conclusions and declaring death even though it is very likely. My 'obviously dead' and yours differ. I provided my criteria needed for someone to be declared dead without doubt above. I urge you to read everything. XTraffy (talk) 07:22, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Why you need more evidence.Especially what JSD said about the meaning of Monet's death explains everything.If I know something about Oda is that,when outside of a flashback,he always kills on screen.That's why I have my doubts about Vergo's death.To accept that a character in One Piece is dead I have three criteria.I need: Monet has all the criteria and she hasn't moved for 4 chapters.-- 07:36, February 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * A dead body
 * A fatal would
 * A reaction to the hit

That's the flaw in your logic. You use the facts and come to a conclusion based on your beliefs. You believe that Oda had Monet killed to provide a symbolic meaning for the readers. You believe that Oda always has and always will kill characters onscreen in the present. And you believe a character must be dead based on your own criteria that you set. You also base your reasoning on Monet not moving for 4 chapters, but we haven't seen her dead body since the incident. We actually even do not know for certain if it is a dead body or wounded body. We have reason to believe that Monet is likely dead. But this wiki should only provide the facts, and leave the interpretation of Oda's work to the reader. No matter how obvious something is, only the facts should be provided here. Ones guess of what Oda is trying to say, make us think, or believe should be kept out. Might want to be careful talking about logic, Traffy's in Law school xDXTraffy (talk) 07:59, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Well,I won't argue for this ridiculously simple issue.Just wait for the poll 08:05, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Your comparison failed. The characters you mentioned were all in flashbacks. Oda kills characters in flashbacks. Monet was not in a flash back so it is more open than what you mentioned. SeaTerror (talk) 09:13, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Ace and Whitebeard were outside of flashbacks, and they died. Ace died similarly to Monet, both pierced in a vital. I keep saying that. If Monet is alive, then Ace might as well have climbed out of his grave after the mourners left, and secretly continued his life of piracy. 09:31, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

It's exactly as Yata says.If you say that Monet just fainted then I say that Ace is not dead,he just decided to take a nap in the midle of the war. 09:41, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Yata is just being a broken record and ignoring what was already said. Ignore it. I already pointed out that Ace and Whitebeard were confirmed deaths. They were flatout stated to be dead by not only multiple characters but even Oda himself. Using Ace and Whitebeard as examples is bad considering there are so many other examples of characters said to be dead by people here and elsewhere but were revealed to be alive. It is speculation to say Monet is dead. SeaTerror (talk) 09:44, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Then let me give you another example,Tom.He was never seen being excecuted.Maybe he is alive and well and we just don't know it.However he is in the dead characters category.Why he is considered dead and Monet is not? 09:50, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Flashback. SeaTerror (talk) 09:58, February 12, 2013 (UTC)\

And the difference is.....? 10:00, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

I'm giving up on this wiki after 2 days of joining. This discussion should be a discussion of facts, not opinions and assumptions. I've repeated things many times because people do not understand and keep repeating the same things that include fallacies... it's tiring. Yatanogarasu, I urge you to read everything in this section before posting. I don't know your educational but I also recommend reading up on logic and epistimology. I know people of all ages use the internet but participating in these kind of discussions you should at least read through everything. This message is for everyone btw. No offense intended to you, Yatanogasaru.

Also, making comparisons with other character and deaths is meaningless. Every character and situation is different. The only reason I brought Olivia and Saul into this was because of their wiki pages, not the actual death. Flashbacks also don't matter for this case. Look at the facts and nothing else. XTraffy (talk) 10:09, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Well,as I sai,the poll will decide. 10:12, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Poll Discussion
Alright, this is getting nowhere. I think we should move on to a poll. There should be 3 options: "Dead", "Presumed Deceased" and "Unknown". Since we're primarily dealing with how to categorize her, there is no "She's Alive" option, since there is no category for living characters. (There's also absolutely nothing in the manga to suggest that she's alive, while there are plenty of suggestions that she's dead) It's a talk page poll, so it should last 1 week. Post your concerns about the poll in this section, it will open in ~24 hours unless there are objections that can't be addressed in that time. 18:18, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

This is stupid. The poll is set to close right before the next chapter comes out. 19:20, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

No new chapter this week. And besides, maybe no "confirmation" of Monet's status in the chapter. 19:29, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

The justification for the "presumed deceased" in the poll is not entirely satisfactory (it's not a matter of evidence, but of what characters believe), but it's hard to do better while remaining clear… The real justification was posted above: Caesar thinks he killed the owner of the heart. So it is a fact that she's presumed deceased in-universe. The discussion was really long and not always constructive, probably because not everybody understands the problem, and simply tries to convince others that their opinion about Monet's status is the truth. But the truth just doesn't matter! The thing is, a wiki is not meant to state opinions, be they well-thought-out or not. Stating the facts is enough. Saying that she's dead makes it look like we know more. We don't: we only know that she coughed up blood, collapsed, and that Caesar had killing intent. Leave to the reader the choice of the conclusion.


 * I understand if the options aren't worded correctly, especially since I'm not exactly unbiased in this discussion. So how would you re-word it? I've also added a bit to the poll recommending that everyone read the talk page before making a decision. 20:41, February 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * I tried, but it's hard, cause I think the question actually is: "Should Monet be put in Category:Dead Characters or not?". That's a yes/no question. It's equivalent to "Should we stick to facts or not?". Your options 2 and 3 both answer "yes" to this question, so that's kinda hard to word them right. I strongly suggest we keep a simple, binary format.
 * That's even harder, because some users (myself included) think that we have enough facts to consider her dead (The "she's been stabbed in the heart, c'om!" team). We several users advocating each of the 3 outcomes, and I think using a 2-option poll would be a disservice to those who think the 3rd option should be used. 22:23, February 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for adding that in. Sucks so much that I can't vote on the poll after being a contributor here. I just want to get rid of the 'Fact A + Fact B = Conclusion C' no matter how likely it is. As for the any changes of wording that may be implemented in the wiki, I believe we should stay away from stating she is/likely/not dead as this is again put on the reader as an opinion. Just add what is, not probably is. I myself am 99% sure Monet is dead. But that's my opinion, a conclusion I made on the facts. XTraffy (talk) 22:45, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Also just wanted to add: Looking at only the facts, many characters in the Dead category should be moved to presumed dead when looked at logically. Right now the dead category works as a list of characters who are put there on reasonable grounds, not fact. This is why I don't really mind where she is categorized. If Monet is categorized as presumed dead or unknown, many other characters would need to be changed too. My issue is the declaration of death based on an assumption here:
 * "However, before she can do anything, she is killed when Caesar stabs her heart, believing it was Smoker's since Law covertly returned Monet's heart to Caesar instead of of giving him Smoker's."
 * We see her collapse, we don't know if it was because she died. That is what I want changed. XTraffy (talk) 18:35, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

@JSD: thinking that there are "enough facts to decide something" is not sticking to facts. The real problem here is that some users don't want her to be in the "Dead" category. Whether or not she should go into the "Presumed Deceased" category is secondary. It is impossible to me to word the poll correctly because of the third option. And, more importantly, the poll is formally biased towards those who answer "yes" to the question "should she be put in the 'Dead' category?", which is the real, important question.

The third option is fine. I corrected the poll for you right now anyway. SeaTerror (talk) 18:51, February 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * Your correction does not correct anything. The "Presumed Deceased" category is not based on possibility, but on what characters believe. Thus "there is not enough evidence to make any conclusions beyond what was shown in the manga" applies just as well to the second option.

Third option just means have no category at all on the page. That is exactly how we use to do it before people decided to create that horrible speculative presumed deceased category. SeaTerror (talk) 19:04, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

I had understood the third option, thank you. But you still didn't understand what the "Presumed Deceased" category was about. The goal is exactly to not "make any conclusions beyond what was shown in the manga". So there's a problem of differentiating options 2 and 3.

Plus, what I'm proposing is simply to vote whether or not she should be put in the "Dead" category. That's not eliminating the third option.

I agree in combining the second and third option. The issue at hand is whether or not Monet's death is a fact or not. So simply 1. Is the death of Monet a fact based on only what comes out of the manga, it is confirmed, and 2. It is not a fact as what comes from the manga does not successfuly include information confirming her death. XTraffy (talk) 19:29, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

I removed the starting date, cause I don't think we'll settle this in fifteen minutes. Here's my proposition: "Should the Wiki consider Monet as dead? Yes, there is enough evidence to consider her dead. / No, it has not been confirmed, so we should stick to the facts."

There is no issue at all. The third option means having no category at all. The 2nd means having presumed deceased. SeaTerror (talk) 19:53, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, so to be clear we're looking at a two-answer poll about whether or not there is enough evidence to consider her 100% dead, and if the "not enough evidence" option wins that, then there's another poll about whether or not it's "presumed deceased" or no category? Sorry for being a bit late with the response, I've been in class til now, and I've been edit conflicted twice. 19:55, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

JustSomeDude, I think that is what we are looking at. What I'm calling for is a change to the wiki where it says Caeser killed Monet to Caeser stabs Monet [...], Monet collapses. But if the decision made is to categorize her in the presumed deceased category, we would need to evaluate everyone in the dead section and re-categorize them accordingly. XTraffy (talk) 20:07, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

That is a bad idea. There's no need to make two different polls for this. SeaTerror (talk) 20:08, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Then a two-question poll is the best option. See my proposed change.


 * Format-wise, it looks fine to me. I have a bit of an issue with the wording of the options though. They should use the same general phrasing, so I think the second option of the first question should be "No, there is not enough evidence to consider her dead." The part about "we should stick to the facts" seems like inflammatory language. 20:26, February 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * But "there is not enough evidence to consider her dead." implies that if there were more "evidence", it would be OK. But it would not: it's not a matter of amount of evidence, it's a matter of sticking to facts. But I'm not a native speaker, so the inflammatory aspect of the wording may escape me. I removed that bit.
 * Can we make the question a bit clearer? Many people in the discussion above believe that Monet is without a doubt dead, and people who challenge this are saying she is alive like Pell. This isn't the case. It's whether or not  she's dead or possibly alive based on what's given to us in the manga. XTraffy (talk) 21:53, February 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't understand your concern, nor do I see how the question could be clearer that "Should we consider Monet as dead?"…


 * Personally, I think the "facts" point to a dead Monet, and I think (but I'm not sure) that's what XTraffy is talking about. So for many users, it's not an argument about about "sticking to what the manga has shown", but one about whether the manga has shown her death in a confirm-able way or not, if that makes any sense. And I think saying "sticking to the facts" in either of the poll options implies that the other one isn't sticking to the facts, hence my use of the word "inflamatory". And I'm not too sure what you mean about there being more evidence of her death could still mean that we may not consider her dead... 02:05, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

Your own interpretation of the scene is not fact.

Anyways as for the poll format, it's silly to have to vote on if we should allow speculation in our articles, but whatever. We'll see what the community prefers. 02:07, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Please keep arguments about the issue at hand out of the poll discussion section. We don't need the distractions here. 02:10, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

You just mentioned it in your point above... 02:13, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * But I mentioned it in a way that relates to the poll structure. You mentioned it in a way to refute my claims about my own opinion (refering to the phrase "Your own interpretation of the scene is not fact.") that had no bearing on the poll structure and no place in this part of the discussion. 02:16, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I was in a rush when I posted that. I just wanted some clarificiation to be added on the poll. A lot of people in the discussion think that there are two choices. Monet is dead or Monet is alive. That is not what this discussion and poll is about. It's about whether Monet is dead for sure or if there is not enough evidence to say she is dead without a doubt. A lot of people argue back saying that if you question her death you are saying she is alive, and then make absurd statements saying that we also believe Ace climbed out of his grave. I just want it to be clear in the poll that this is wrong.
 * JustSomeDude- A wiki only contains facts, as you know it is not a forum, blog, or review. You say that you believe that Monet is dead because the facts point to it. I agree with this 100%. But a wiki does not include what the facts point to, it only contains the facts. That is what I am pushing for here. What is in the wiki right now is the facts, and a conclusion to which the facts point to. Although the death is supported by facts, the death is not a fact. XTraffy (talk) 02:34, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

And I mentioned it in reference to the poll too. None of it is fact, so that's bias if you try to include that on the poll. 02:21, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

Let's just make a poll about whether Monet should or should not be considered dead by the wiki. 14:21, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah just let the votes speak. 17:26, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

@XTraffy: in my opinion, it is clearly stated in the options: either the voter thinks that evidence is enough, or that we cannot say anything without a proper confirmation. I reworded it a little. I proposed a starting date.
 * Can you make it say something like "we must wait for a stronger/clearer confirmation" or something similar? As I've said before, there are users who think we've been given a confirmation already. 20:22, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * The poll is good as it is,just open it already 21:32, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

No JSD. Opinions don't belong on polls. 21:45, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * The poll deals with opinion on what actually constitutes a fact. I believe that the facts show that she's dead. You believe that my facts aren't truly facts. The disagreement is over what is actually a fact or not. So to have one poll option be worded in a way that makes one option sound more correct than the other, then bias is created simply by reading the poll. That's why I support more re-wording. 22:45, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

Changed again… But you got a strange definition for "confirmation", since you're admitting you're merely deducing her death from the facts… Once again, nobody answered the fundamental question, which is: what is the added value of stating she's dead, instead of leaving the conclusion to the reader? I see none. Rather, it makes it look like we know more…

JustSomeDude, your statement proves that what you are saying isn't a fact. You say that you believe that she is dead based on the facts. This is an inference: conclusion reached on the basis of evidence and reasoning. That is what I've been trying to argue here for all this time. My arguement is not whether or not Monet is dead or alive. It's a motion to provide only confirmed facts to the reader, as is done on Olivia's and Saul's page. People should be able to read the facts and come to their own conclusions. As Sff9 says, saying anything more is saying more than we really know. Hope this clears things up for you and perhaps you will reconsider your thinking. I'll be on chat for a bit if you need clarification. XTraffy (talk) 00:59, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

JSD is saying that for some users,including myself,the evidence is enough not to believe but to know she is dead. 14:13, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

Good god, this is the most unnecessarily convoluted discussion I've seen on here for a while. Can't we just do the damn poll now and get this over with? 14:27, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

The poll was supposed to open two days ago,why don't you just open it and judge by the results? 14:33, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

By the time this thing gets started we'll know the answer already. 14:58, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

Poll
The poll is currently closed. The poll will run for one week, and will close on Thursday, February the 21st, 18:00 UTC. You may vote for both questions. You must have an account that has been active for at least three months and have at least 300 edits to vote on this poll.

This poll will decide how to categorize Monet regarding her possible death. There are many different points that have been brought up in this discussion, and it is strongly recommended that you read the whole relevant section of the talk page before making a decision.

By a vote of 15-8, Monet shall be dead until further notice.

Should the Wiki consider Monet as dead?


 * Yes, there is enough evidence to consider her dead.
 * 1)  18:22, February 14, 2013 (UTC) As me and many other users mentioned above,the evidence is more than enough to consider her dead.
 * 18:53, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 18:57, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 19:02, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 22:12, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1)  23:15, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) User:X-RAPTOR 23:27, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3)  01:28, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4)  01:35, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5)  05:52, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 06:16, February 15, 2013 (UTC) What more do you want?
 * 1) Genocyber (talk) 07:15, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2)  Nico ❤❤❤  17:06, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Genocyber (talk) 07:15, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2)  Nico ❤❤❤  17:06, February 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * No, we must not make deductions, but rather wait for an official confirmation.
 * 1)  (stating unconfirmed facts in the articles has no advantage, only drawbacks.)
 * 19:13, February 14, 2013 (UTC) What sff said and if option 1 wins, we turn into a fan fiction wiki.
 * 1) SeaTerror (talk) 19:51, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 19:58, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 21:02, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 22:36, February 14, 2013 (UTC) I don't trust Oda.
 * 1) Klobis (talk) 03:05, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

If the second option wins, should the Wiki consider Monet as Presumed Deceased?


 * Yes.
 * 1)  (Caesar believes he killed the owner of the heart, so it fits the category definition.)
 * 2) (Obviously.)
 * 18:53, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 18:57, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 19:01, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 19:26, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 19:47, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 19:58, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 22:12, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 22:36, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 23:15, February 14, 2013 (UTC) Joining the little bandwagon here~
 * 1) User:X-RAPTOR 23:27, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 01:28, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Klobis (talk) 03:05, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 05:52, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 06:16, February 15, 2013 (UTC) I think the only people voting against this are against the category, not Monet's addition to it.
 * 1) Genocyber (talk) 07:15, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * No.
 * 1) SeaTerror (talk) 19:51, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * 01:35, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 05:56, February 15, 2013 (UTC) Terrible category.
 * 05:56, February 15, 2013 (UTC) Terrible category.

"Villain" definition
I don't edit often at all, but careful with the use of "villain".

Every pirate is a criminal in One Piece, therefore, a villain.

I think you mean antagonist... And even then she isn't the first to die. :-/ One-Winged Hawk (talk) 20:05, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

What other antagonists have died? 20:06, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Bluejam, Pudding Pudding, literally every evil zombie. 20:10, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and that Marine who was on the Baratie for like 10 seconds. What was his name? Lines? 20:11, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Bluejam isn't confirmed dead. Pudding Pudding didn't antagonize the straw hats, and Lines never antagonized them either. Try again. 20:12, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

I believe she is the first female character to die onscreen, so just say that and leave "villain" out of it. 21:18, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Otohime... 21:23, January 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oops. Still the first female character to die not in a flashback. 21:25, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Apparently all criminals are villains now. Also, zombies don't count and Lines is not confirmed. I'll laugh when Monet is revealed to be alive anyway. SeaTerror (talk) 21:28, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

This section is a bit meaningless since we're still arguing her death above, but I've realized some things just. The honor of being the first antagonist to die belongs to Higuma way back at the beginning of the series. But I'm not wrong in saying that she's the first female character to die onscreen in the current timeline, right? 04:50, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

You're wrong until it's proven. 05:39, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I know a lot of people think she might be alive, but if she is dead, then she's the first female character to die in the current timeline, right? 13:57, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

Yes,all the other females have died in a flashback. 14:10, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

She alive

She's not alive. 17:48, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

No one knows the answer to this question as of yet except from Oda himself, so quit the stupid discussion and just wait until it's confirmed... (sigh) 19:24, February 11, 2013 (UTC)

"Canon"
I'll just copy and paste what I said with some editing. They never happened anywhere in the manga so technically Monet is the first (and so far) the only one who has a Logia Devil Fruit and is female. Manga is the only thing that matters in a case like this since it never happened in any canon story line. SeaTerror (talk) 22:17, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

It's trivia. She isn't the first female to have a logia. She's the first canon one to have a logia though. 22:19, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

She is the first female to have it because non-canon doesn't count. Comparing canon to non-canon is a bad thing to do. SeaTerror (talk) 23:27, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

Saying she's the first female canonically is correct. Excluding it is only correct if you consider the manga's continuity. If you look at the One Piece franchise overall, it's incorrect. That's why the word "canonically" was added. 23:35, March 5, 2013 (UTC)

That's the point. We shouldn't be comparing the manga with non-canon material. It should not have the world "canonically" in it. SeaTerror (talk) 02:58, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

We are looking at the whole series. We're a wiki for it. 03:00, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

First female character to die?
Alright, this kind of an extension of the discussion from the Villain Definition section above, but more specialized.

I say Monet is the first female character to die in the current storyline. Others like Belle-mere and Otohime died in flashbacks. The Zombie characters of Lola and Cindry shouldn't count because they died long before they became zombies. Their bodies were reanimated, and the people themselves were not reborn, and is therefore not a true resurrection, like Brook's devil fruit would be. And none of our articles say that the Zombies "died" when Moriah took in all the shadows, only that the bodies became lifeless corpses again. 02:45, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

They became new people. They died in the current timeline. 02:48, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

They were never alive to begin with. Making a puppet dance around doesn't mean it's a live, just that it can move. Zombies aren't alive, they're undead. 02:50, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

They are the bodies of dead people with the shadow (and personality) of live people. They aren't their own person, and they are neither dead nor alive. They are undead, and undead things don't die, they do something different from "death". 02:51, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Zombies are brought to life. Something that isn't dead is alive. 02:53, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Or undead. SeaTerror (talk) 02:57, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

The undead are still alive. They aren't dead. 03:00, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

But they aren't alive either. 03:00, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

The only possible classification for something is dead or alive. They aren't dead. They can only be alive. The undead are alive. 03:02, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger's_cat SeaTerror (talk) 03:04, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

That doesn't apply to zombies. And undead is a term made specifically for zombies since they are neither dead nor alive. Learn hwo zombies work. 03:06, March 6, 2013 (UTC)