Forum:Tabbers and html ruby

As we talked in here, we should use tabbers. If appropriate, we could move the talk here.

That aside, I have a proposal for the kanji/furigana appearance: we should use the html ruby function, which sets the furigana (pronunciation) on top of the kanji (characters) like for jū (pistoru): 銃ピストル.
 * Note: you would need to have the add-on installed to see the difference. See here for more info.

This would make it more apparent which kanji the furigana is referring to, and is how the original RAW does it. Of course, since there's so many, it would be wiser to set a bot to do that. Do tell me what you think. 00:49, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * I'm not against using tabbers in special pages, but I don't really like them on normal articles, because I don't see a problem in not using them and they are also poorly styled.
 * About your second point, can you explain better what the problem is about? But simply because you have to install and addon to view them is pretty much a no in my opinion. The wiki should compatible as much as possible with every kind of viewer and browser. Though if there are no issues with viewing 銃ピストル then it shouldn't be a problem, I don't really understand how it works. Also, it's easy to say "set a bot to do that", but you have to come up with an algorithm to do that.

The second point is having the furigana on top of the kanji, so we know how each kanji is pronounced, as pposed to having the whole phrase (i.e. we know that the furigana refers to "pistol" instead of "Gomu Gomu no Pistol"). This and this wiki utilizes such format, looks nice. 16:28, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

You posted the same wiki twice. It looks alright, although a little hard to read without zooming in on the text (maybe I'm just tired and my eyes are blurring). The Index wiki also did a terrible job of advertising that the ruby extension was needed, so even though I've visited it fairly regularly in the last couple of months, I had no idea that the feature was available, which is something we have to keep in mind - how many people are we going to expect will install the add-on? If it's less than half of everyone who visits the wiki, then it's definitely not worth doing (presumably we'd be removing the katakana from the side to the top and not doubling up, so people without the add-on installed would no longer be able to read it at all). My opinion would be different if the ruby feature was available by default in all major browsers, but as things stand I agree with Levi. 17:00, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

I wanted to know more about what the furigana is and what we are currently using. As I said, simply because you have to install an external add-on it should be avoided, unless we can come up with a format which will still be correct when viewed without the extension, for example: 銃(ピストル) = 銃(ピストル). We have to assume that the viewer hasn't installed the extension, otherwise we will only cause confusion. Also, I guess that extension won't work on mobile devices (since you can't install it). The wiki must be as much compatible as possible.

I meant the Yu-Gi-Oh wiki as the second example. Furigana is the pronunciation intended, such as "pistoru", while the kanji is simply to make Japanese readers more understanding in case the attack name is written in another language (hence the furigana is necessary to pronounce the original meaning). And didn't the toaru majutsu no index wiki have extra brackets that even without the installed add-on, the brackets would still be visible? Making it both ways? 01:13, July 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * Oops, I misremembered. You're right on that point. 06:13, July 22, 2013 (UTC)

I think using tabbers are a great idea. 06:22, July 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yup, tabbers do help organize the page's physical appearance. 06:34, July 22, 2013 (UTC)

Majority seems contend with tabbers, right? So what about ruby? Having the pronunciation on top of the respective kanji/phrase seems favorable, to indicate how Oda wanted the term to be pronounced. 04:58, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

About tabbers, is there a particular reason why you suggest them? What's wrong about using normal sections? I don't really like the style... but I suppose we can do something with CSS. About ruby, compatibility is the major flaw... it's nice, but what's the point if only, let's say, 10% install the add-on? A random viewer won't install it, the same goes with mobile users.

Tabbers, to organize the overly long and cluttering articles. Ruby, if we alter it like toaru majutsu no index wikia, then we can have it both ways: even without the add on, the furigana remains in brackets, so we can see it both ways. 16:15, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

As I discussed in the Rokushiki talk page, there's a fundamental problem with how redirects to article sections work. For things like Shave, they no longer redirect to the proper location (the former section on Soru). And since Shave is a term from the official English translations, there's no easy way to figure out which tab on the Rokushiki article contains the information you want anymore if you aren't familiar with the Japanese terms. I think the tabs do a lot of good for the article, but if things like this can't be fixed, we shouldn't use the tabs. 17:54, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Then we can just redirect all those links under "Techniques" which all seven technique names are directly underneath. 18:03, July 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * That would be ok if the Japanese names were the only redirects we have. But "Shave" is an English translation, and none of the tabs say "Shave" at the top. 18:31, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Those redirects aren't even used somewhere. 18:33, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

They exist for the search function. Links like Zolo exist because not because they're used somewhere, but because since they came from an official source, it's quite possible that someone would search for that without knowing the correct name. People do live under rocks, and we should still make the wiki friendly for them, not just experienced editors. 04:04, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Bump. 14:09, August 1, 2013 (UTC)

My opinion on this case is just about the same as Levi's and Zodia's. WU out - 16:21, August 3, 2013 (UTC)

Bump. 16:23, August 14, 2013 (UTC)

Right, so tabbers seems to work out fine, no complains in general. The few issues are minor, such as the redirects, which can be readjusted to make it easier.
 * As for the html ruby style, how about some more opinions? 03:48, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

Bump. The Rokushiki article still suffers from those bad redirects. 12:32, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Apparently, someone used a tabber on Hito Hito no Mi at some point, and once again a bunch of redirects have been screwed up. I'm willing to say it right now, I HATE the tabber extensions and I want them gone. 23:53, September 9, 2013 (UTC)

I don't like it very much either.

I don't like it either. 10:54, September 15, 2013 (UTC)

Let's have a poll then. 17:34, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

Poll Discussion
Alright, I'm sick of these terrible interfaces on our pages. I'm making up a test poll. Two options, one week. 17:44, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

Poll's fine. 09:58, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

Question: "Using the tab extension" implies always use it or it can be used?

"Can is be used". We can't use the tabbers in every single page even if that option wins 11:09, September 30, 2013 (UTC)

We forgot to open the poll >_> 08:40, October 4, 2013 (UTC)

Moving On: html ruby
Okay, we settled the tabbers business: we won't use them. Now, how about the html ruby? Do we want that, with the kanji as the main text and the furigana at the top? 22:19, October 17, 2013 (UTC)

I'm fine with either. 16:11, October 29, 2013 (UTC)

I think the wikis posted at the beginning of the discussion don't use html ruby tags anymore. Also this article can be relevant to the discussion, in particular I think the text will be hardly readable. I propose to leave the pronunciation in a tooltip. Examples: We can also make a custom CSS that highlight the part of the text the tooltip applies to make it more clear.
 * Ruby: 銃ピストル.
 * Ruby in a infobox: 銃ピストル.
 * Tooltip: 銃.

Yeah, that sounds good. 16:28, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

Funny how this was left unresolved. How exactly are we going to do this? 07:02, December 17, 2013 (UTC)

I say we just set up a poll and get it over with once and for all. 06:13, December 23, 2013 (UTC)

Below is a test. If no more arguments, then let's start. 07:51, December 24, 2013 (UTC)

Why don't also add my suggestion about putting the furigana in a tooltip?

I don't really see the point of it either way since the only people who would know what it means are either Japanese people or people who know Japanese. It doesn't seem like it matters though. SeaTerror (talk) 16:35, December 24, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, tooltip option added. Are we ready for polling yet? 17:04, December 24, 2013 (UTC)

We also need to see an example done on here first to see if it will clutter the infobox or not. Not every wiki is the same. SeaTerror (talk) 17:13, December 24, 2013 (UTC)

With the tooltip - is the highlighting Levi's talking about only for when it's being mouse-overed, or at all times? i.e. would I know that if I moused over a certain part the tooltip would appear? Because we only put the furigana in parentheses where they're different to what the kanji suggest, so not all the kanji will have them. 17:18, December 24, 2013 (UTC)

Well, tooltip would be less clutter, but overhead may seem more professional (or something...). Should we start the poll soon? 01:37, December 28, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, start it. 07:17, January 3, 2014 (UTC)

Can someone explain what this poll is about quickly? I don't really understand what the differences/pros and cons of each method is. 18:48, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

To determine whether the furigana (pronunciation) of the Japanese characters would appear on top of the kanji or not. 21:15, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

So the poll time's almost up (at least it will be when I wake up tomorrow), it's tied, and we still don't have the examples of tooltip implementation that were asked for earlier. The poll should really be halted completely and then restarted when they're provided, so more people can understand what's going on and actually make an informed decision, especially given the relatively low participation. 15:55, January 9, 2014 (UTC)