Forum:Weapon Usage Categories

Since the creation of weapon using categories has been heavy the past few days, as well as heavily disputed, I'm going to put a kibosh on them until we reach a consensus through discussion.

The topic: Which abilities and weapons should get categories, and which one should not. Discuss below. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 18:23, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

Discussion
Thank you, I would ask KingCannon to not undo anything before we've come up to a conclusion. Cracker-Kun (talk) 18:24, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

Cracker-kun is being not more than a vandal at this point. Literally creating categories and using the fact that we're going to have a discussion now as a way to "gotcha" others into not undoing his edits.

He's been very dishonest and problematic the past few days, completely laughing off concerns and not respecting the discussions that were happening. Now he is pretending to respect things because he doesn't want others to undo his miryad of spam edits.

I tried to cooperate and compromise with him, but he keeps being an ass who thinks he's above others.

I will gladly talk further, but I need to talk about Cracker's behavior as it's been completely unacceptable.KingCannon (talk) 18:27, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

Yesterday u told me to create a Gunman Category, and now u say that I'm vandalising? And now u come here and call me "ass"? When have I insult u? Cracker-Kun (talk) 18:34, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

This forum is to discuss categories, not users. Further personal attacks will not be tolerated.

My general view, at this point:
 * Only usage of actual weapons should get categorized. I do not think it is particularly informative to make categories for random objects used as weapons, particularly elements like fire, water, wind, earth, etc.
 * The Sniper category and Weapons categories should not overlap. Sniper is a position, Weapons Usage is about ability. Not to mention that snipers have used a variety of weapons in the series.

Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 18:38, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

I wont argue with this topic too much cuz this the discussion is dumb but I will say - avatar like fire users, water users, wind users, earth users categories are stupid. These are not weapons. If it were something like a flamethrower that's still okay but what the hell are these?? If I shoot a cannon ball into the water to hit a crowd of people with water, does that make me a water user? Does it make me one if there was a devil fruit user in the crowd? Guns are weapons, they get a weapon user category. Snipers are those people who fight by hitting at long ranges with high precision, its not a weapon user category. Why is this an argument? Also Cracker stop tryna act like the victim here when you're the one to initiate the edit war. ( Dot  Talk  ) 18:41, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

Now for the problem itself, the weapon categories:

I started this as a project earlier this year. The "Fighters Who Use Weapons" category was very barebones and only had a myriad of examples like Kaido, Vivi, etc. Many characters were missing since the amount of weaponized fighters were definitely not just those guys.

As subcategories, there were only Axemen and Swordsmen, plus Snipers and Polearm Wielders (I am not sure if it was already divided by then). Also, there was a flamethrower category that I thought was a bit off-topic.

First I started with "Club Users" because Kaido was the big thing at the time so I created the category with Alvida, Mr. 4, Gin, etc in mind. It naturally extended to other weapon types that were regularly used, but not categorized.

Flails, whips, claws, dial weapons etc. Those were weapons many different characters used and were distinct enough types of their own. I believe those + clubs have merit for categories.

I noticed Poison and Explosives had pages as well, so I thought it was worth to make a category for those as well, even though I was dubious about the idea at the time. I am not sure I would consider Poison a weapon, but that's up to others. Many characters utilize poisoned weapons (Crocodile) or just outright poison directly (Magellan). I personally would get rid of it or have it under a chemical weapon category.

Fire was also strange mainly because I thought it would be useful to have a page for those characters who could create fire (because there were many). I would not consider it a weapon now. Same for electricity, which I admit I created recently.

Then Cracker-kun started making categories that were frankly useless and superficial. Lance users (subcategory of spears), Bat users (subcategory of club users), etc. I do not think we need this further division, especially because it led to a dumb discussion about spears with blades needing to be part of the "Blade User" category.

Gunmen is a whole nother beast. It led to quite a discussion about the point of Snipers. I think a page for gunmen itself merits existence, but not so many types. I question the necessity of having pistol-users, rifle users, etc as their own thing instead of just "Gunmen" or "Gunners" or "firearm users" or whatever.. KingCannon (talk) 18:43, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

The "element" categories exists because in One Piece, they are used as a weapon, there are plenty of characters that use fire in combats, water, electricity and light (which is explosive). Cracker-Kun (talk) 18:44, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

That part seems pretty simple. I agree with Kaido King of the Beasts and Dot4447 on elements not having a category and the discussion then being about weapons; also in sniper being an obvious position, independent of the weapons used, as we see many official snipers with a completely different arsenal. About distinction between rifle users, pistol users, etc. I'd need to see the arguments before having a solid opinion, but for now I question the necessity. How useful would separating those be? What problems could it create?StoopidGuy (talk) 19:30, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

There is no problem in categorizing the gunman, it is not that difficult. Cracker-Kun (talk) 19:49, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

Despite the problems from this issue, the Weapons listed have helped and it be best to have the subject of the categories added, along with the "non"-weapons, to a new page called Arsenal. Even if the users already present, or others after, don't think this is the right place or time I have been making a list and this will help. Rgilbert27 (talk) 19:52, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

"There is no problem in categorizing the gunman, it is not that difficult."

I would rather keep it simple, otherwise we're opening a big can of worms.

Can you guys imagine "Swordsmen" becoming "Katana users", Saber users" and so on? Especially when certain sword types look similar to one another (cutlasses and sabers are nearly the same visually).

Reminder that we have to keep the wiki user friendly. It would be quite the tall order to have users choose the correct categories regarding weapon usage if they ever go into editing. I am a veteran editor and even I'm getting confused and overwhelmed now.

Also, Axemen should not be a category under Polearm Wielders since we axes with short or no poles at all, like Morgan. KingCannon (talk) 20:12, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

Axes are not polearms. If we were going by that logic then all swordsmen would be polearm wielders since the blade itself is on a hilt. SeaTerror (talk) 20:24, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

One of the things that could help, if only for the time being, is move some of the new categories along with Fighters Who Use Weapons under a different category say Characters by Arsenal. Rgilbert27 (talk) 20:35, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

No, SeaTerror, the blade has to be in the end of the weapon, that is a polearm. Cracker-Kun (talk) 20:43, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

Personally, I would say 'Swordsmen', 'Gunmen', 'Axe Users', and 'Polearm Users'. It worked. The only category that needs to be broken up into smaller categories is 'Fighters Who Weapons' because it is too general. 02:36, August 15, 2020 (UTC)

I personally don't see the difference between Axemen and Bat Users, both are characters that use different weapons. I would stay the category as it is now, it is well ordenated, otherwise the Fighters that use weapons Category would have a ton of articles. Cracker-Kun (talk) 12:53, August 15, 2020 (UTC)

Bats are nothing more than clubs with a specific shape. It's too superficial of a change. 16:53, August 15, 2020 (UTC)

Axes are polearm with a blade with a specific shape, it is the same logic. Cracker-Kun (talk) 19:29, August 15, 2020 (UTC)

Nah. Bats are just clubs. Axes are axes since again we have examples of axes without poles (Morgan).

Also, to be a polearm, it needs a pole in its structure, which is long. Most axes are too short to be polearms (example, Scopper Gaban, Acilia, Ronse).KingCannon (talk) 21:05, August 15, 2020 (UTC)

I agree with deleting the elemental categories and restricting categories to more general ones i.e. no "bat users" subcategory. 10:57, August 17, 2020 (UTC)

Regarding Explosive users, we should probably not include those who use Devil Fruits to explode things.

To be consistent with "Fighters who use weapons".

And Poison/Gas Users should be renamed into a Chemical Weapon Users since we actually have a category for Chemical Weapons. Sounds less elemental and more material. Devil Fruit users wouldn't be included either, since again they don't use weapons, just an ability that's natural to them. KingCannon (talk) 13:42, August 17, 2020 (UTC)

I agree with chemical weapon users, seems like a fitting category. And if they're chemical weapons and explosives, not poison/gas and explosions, Devil Fruits should not count, I agree. So, to share my view on that, some examples that I remember:

On chemical weapons - Magellan's power is pretty straight-forward from the Devil Fruit. Now Caesar Clown creates chemical weapons and uses them, on top of his power and unrelated to it (the drug in chapter 689, Smiley, etc.), so he'd still qualify.

On explosives - Gem uses his power as a weapon and with a weapon, but the explosion itself comes from the fruit. On the other hand, even if Babanuki creates explosions, he also uses cannonballs to create an explosion, so my opinion is he still should be in the category. StoopidGuy (talk) 15:08, August 17, 2020 (UTC)

Yes, Babanuki, Garp, Vergo, Pedro, etc all use explosives without the need of a firearm or Devil Fruit to do so. They just use their own strength or an appendage to assist them.

Meanwhile, Perona, Trebol, Gem, etc. wouldn't count since they're just using a property of their Devil Fruits. KingCannon (talk) 15:35, August 17, 2020 (UTC)

Axes are only polearms if they're poleaxes. SeaTerror (talk) 18:14, August 17, 2020 (UTC)