Talk:Pirate Captain

Move and separate
Seriously:

"The title of Captain can refer to either a Captain of a pirate crew, or a rank in the Marines"

sounds just too "fanish" and unprofesional,if its anywhere else then on a disambiguation page.

New Babylon 16:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

change to page?
Proposal that we have a disen-whats-it-called page linking to similar pages rather then just "captain". Pages to replace:


 * Captain (crewmember)
 * Captain (pirate)
 * Captain (Marine)

Give or take a couple of the suggestions. This is a arkward page otherwise. One-Winged Hawk 15:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I rise the question again: Should we change this page?  This could get a little confusing here and there. :/ One-Winged Hawk 15:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Umm, I'm a bit confused. What's exactly the problem again? The page in it's self looks somewhat messy since there's only been little effort in editing it since it's creation, but I don't know what else. There's a slight problem there I guess but I can't put my finger on it. Maybe stating what's the problem more in detail might shed some light. The page indeed needs some work but it would also be best stating what needs work so that others with the writing skills can know what to do.Mugiwara Franky 18:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem... You know what, sometimes you get something you know has problems but you can't figure out the problem is. Thats exactly how I see this page.  I know part of the problem is it holds information about 3 different areas sharing the same name, which is the case for my suggestion in the first place.  But there is also something else about this page that I can't pinpoint... That is the REAL problem... T_T


 * Perhaps this page needs to be completely rewritten from the start? One-Winged Hawk 00:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Reorganised page
I made the page how it should have been. This is a page for captains and not Marines who aren't captains but end up on here because of one possible rank translation. One-Winged Hawk 07:30, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Marine "Captain"
ITs only the "Equallent of" Captain not "translated as". The rank will end translation as different terms depending on langauage and military/naval ranking. The trivia bit need a rewrite to mention this but I have removed the Marine rank off the page in the past for this reason. One-Winged Hawk 20:26, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

Split
I think it would be better to split this article in two: Captain and Captain (marine rank). (Because they are two separate entities: one is job, another is rank; plus, we have separate articles for all other marine ranks.)

This article's layout would be: In the beginning: Captain is the head of the ship. ... However, in the marine ships his rank should not necessary be Captain (marine rank). ...

Pirate Captains
Pirate Captains are ...

List of Pirate Captains
...

In the article Captain (marine rank) the first note from current Trivia section:


 * A Marine Captain (大佐) is a rank junior to that of a Commodore. It is second most seen rank in One Piece to date, having 8 representatives and being second only to that of Vice Admiral in terms of appearance. The number of seen captains MAY have surpassed the number of seen vice admirals, during the Enies Lobby assault on the Bridge of Hesitation, where no one below the rank of captain was to attack, we have not seen many of them more then once and only from afar, except three (Sharinguru, Shuu, Very Good) however, these were never specifically referred to as "captains", until being dubbed as such by Oda in the SBS of volume 47. Even then "captain" is just the equivalent rank in English speaking armies (America and British) to the Japanese given for their rank.

Ruxax 16:32, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

Indeed they are not really related so it's better they have their own article as the other marine ranks Kdom 17:22, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

Mihawk Captain?
Since when is Mihawk a captain? 174.89.102.176 00:05, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

the yellow data books states that all shichibukai are captains and that only pirates can become shichibukai.(OnePieceNation 00:27, April 17, 2012 (UTC))

Template
Nobody decided to use the template. The template is super long when the list was 100X better. Not to mention it has speculation in it such as saying certain characters are deceased. SeaTerror 17:35, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. The lists were better. 19:25, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

I also think the lists are better the template; should we have a vote on it?
 * 海賊-姫 19:40, April 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * First off DP shame one you for just going along with Seaterror and removinh the template when a majority is for creating this template, Yatanogarasu as your fellow admin even gave us the go ahead. So why the hell do you remove the template and lock the page, your punishing the wrong four guys, Sea Terror so far is the only one who objected the creating of this template and the posting of it on the Captain page where the template is extremely needed to replace a very long, disorderly, sloppy, unsynoptic, error filled list. And yes the template currently does have a few minor flaws however Sea Terror isn't aware that those three characters are actually death. Puppu was sucked dry and left in the desert to die, bluejam was unconcious and surrounded by fire with no means of escape and last not least the candy pirates captain's freaking skull was crushed by Lucci. Did you guys even look at the list and how inconvenient, unsynoptic and unclear it is, you can barely tell which pirate captain has what status. Also pictures of characters are always a far better way to identify them then just with their name, furthermore all other professions like doctor, first mate and shipwright have templates too. unlock the page and put back the template DP or to ward of master troublemaker Seaterror just put the template back and leave the page locked now. Show yourself worthy of adminship DP. (OnePieceNation 00:58, April 18, 2012 (UTC))

The mile long template that you made actually looked worse than the lists. Also, your template had just as many errors in as the list, like speculating about certain captains being dead. If you're going to make a template in the future, do it in your sandbox first instead of making a useless page. Also, SeaTerror is not the only one who objects to it, as you can clearly see in the above comments. Secondly, fuck you and the high horse you rode in on for calling my capabilities into question, again. I'm following standard procedures here. If there is an edit war, the page is locked and reverted how it was originally. Then the discussion happens. If you don't like it, tough shit. I've told you this is how we handle edit wars here muiltiple times and yet you still seem unwilling to accept it. Just continue on with the discussion and try not to sound like the whiny arrogant bitch you're sounding like now. Now that that's out of the way, the template is far too long, it makes the page look bad. The lists were perfectly fine since they let the page be divided up. We don't need a template on the page. 01:53, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

I didn't look worse it looked 10 times more organized but how it looks to any given person is subject to personal opinion and not to fact. The errors you are refering to are a few and in some case minor and in many cases up for unnecessary debate. It is stated quite clearly that lucci killed the captain of the candy pirates, it is also extremely clear that most likely for over 99,999999 % that anyone who wasn't saved be Dragon during the burning of the grey terminal died and in this case we can be even more sure because the person in question was unconscious and surrounded by flames. The only one open for real debate is Puppu, furthermore mistakes can be fixed and things leading to discussions can be discussed. Saying that I need to make templates in my sandbox is like saying all edits can be better done in templates, however if I would have made the template all alone in my sandbox I would have never gotten any feedback on it or got involved with others on the wikia who can add their knowledge, point of view and time to it, meaning that doing it in my sandbox would be extremely egocentric and unwise of me. Seaterror is the first one who started object and he objected the hardest and you immediatly followed him while the only other person who objected here has actually helped in it's creation.

Now to get personal if I have an high horse you have a gigantic one. I question people who don't do their job properly and I have every right to do so, if you are an admin who doesn't reply back to messages, puts protect on a pages prematurely before anything bad or huge has happened and who shoots down others ideas and initiatives without a second thought or proper discussion or if needed a vote than you are a very bad lousy to authority absorbed admin in my eyes. You might think you are doing a great job but in these three fronts you fail miserable. An admin has the obligation to reply to messages whether they are friendly, harsh, long, short or unkind. All other admins I have encountered have learned to reply back to messages yet you don't, why is that. Standard procedure is locking a page only as a last resort to stop vandalism or an actual edit war, this wasn't even an edit struggle yet, at most it was an edit argument and last time I checked an argument isn't a war. If a person whether admin or not disagrees with something that could actually benefit the wikia it is only civilized and proper to take it to the talk page first before putting a deletion tag on it.You so far show people how quickly you call something an edit war and how extensively huge your difinition of an edit war is and how you handle them. I am not new to edit wars, edit wars are things that go on either for a continuesly long time between two people or for any given time between a lot of people, this was nothing but an argument on different points of view. Not a war.

I am complaining to you not whining, whining entails doing something continuesly for a long time. My arrogance is debatable just like anyones is. The template is long because there are a lot of captains but that is not a reason to not have one, especially if there is a choice between a very long confussing list and a long easily managable templatate that lets you catch mistakes and outdated and wrong information sooner than any list would let you do. Furthermore templates are made to quickly indentify characters, How does one quickly indentify a character? You do it by looking at a picture of the characters face, it is the same way that is used for identifing people in real life.To sound corny a picture says more then a thousand words. The lists where anything but fine they were error filled, partly outdated and extremely confusing. The page doesn't need to be diveded up but it can be we can split the template in two or three or even four parts Examples: canon, non-canon  or  pre-timeskip canon, post-timeskip canon and non-canon  or   pre-timeskip canon, post-timeskip canon, pre-timeskip non-canon and post-timeskip non-canon.

A template is always by default more clearer, synoptic and organized, because it shows and tells you something instead of just telling you something. (OnePieceNation 03:09, April 18, 2012 (UTC))

Nowhere was it stated that the Tulip Pirate captain died from his injuries, so it is foolish to assume that. Normally, you'd be right. Templates are better than lists. But that is only to a point. If the template is too long, like the one here, then it just makes the page look bland and ugly. Your template is too big so it makes the page look bland and ugly. I really can't say that any other way and expect the message to get across. And you're right, I do have a high horse, the only difference is I can control mine so I don't sound like a stuckup cunt all the time. If you don't like the way we I do shit here, then you can fucking leave, because when I can sense an edit war brewing, I stop it before it starts. Excuse me for being preventative and trying to maintain order. And so far you're the only one who seems to take issue with how shit gets done around here. Aside from you no one's really complained about page lockings. As for ignoring your messages, guilty. That's because I don't read novellas that really do nothing but flame me. If you really cannot live without getting your way, then start your own damn wiki. And learn how to condense your rage into 1-2 small paragraphs at most. 03:33, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Getting back on topic, the argument that I see against the template is that it is huge and ugly. But the list is equally long, and the Whitebeard Pirates template is pretty huge as well. In all honesty, this page looks bad no matter how it is set up: it's basically a category page with a brief description and some trivia. 03:49, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

The Whitebeard template is only about 15 deep. The finished captain template will be 25 or 26 deep. While the WB template might be pushing it, the captain template definitely is well over the line. 03:57, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Since the lists are so long, why don't break each section into 2 columns like with the Straw Hat Pirates' miscellaneous information?

For Example:
 * Deceased Captains
 * 海賊-姫 05:35, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the template idea (yet), but why don't we do the same thing we did for the Goldenlioncrewmembers, with a hidden toggle switch function? But the template may be long, as one might say, so this function is just a suggestion from a neutral view. 05:47, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

DP

First you are mixing up captains I am talking about the captain of the Candy Pirates who appears in chapter 510 and who appears to get killed by Rob Lucci and his use of excessive justice, thanks to this they are forced to leave St. Poplar. As I said I agree with you that the template is too long, however the lists are too and if it there is a choice between a long list that is difficult to manage and a template which easy to manage I choose a template. I have a high horse too, it comes with the fact that I am a far too logical thinking person and sometimes it is better to not always follow your own sense of logic, however I am not stuck up, I truly admit my faults and one of them is that I can become angered and harsh very quickly when certain types of behavior continuesly annoy me. However leaving is a sign of weakness, while trying to discuss grievances, arguments and different views and points of opinion is a strenght. I fully understand why you protect pages all I am telling you, is that you might be just a little bit to quick to do so. And don't assume I am the only one because I ain't there are for more people who get annoyed at premature discission. Furthermore you have a bad habit of not repling to messages not just mine if it was just all about me I would have made that clearer. you have a way of choosing which messages you reply back too and which you don't reply back too. That is alright for any normal member to do, but not for an admin and admin must reply back to all his messages, it is part of being admin whether you like it or not. The fact that I don't like certain things doesn't make me dislike a thing overall, starting another wikia about one piece would only be redundant and counterproductive. And yes I am a very long-winded person because I'd unintetionally try to extensively answer/adress every little thing that is thrown/said to me. And I fully understand that that can be very tiresome for those around me, but sadly that is just how I am.

PX15

Thank you for summing up the gist of the problem.

DP

Has there ever being a discussion on how long a template may/must be. Since all I currently know it that templates may only be created if they first serve a purpose and secondly if they list something, meaning that creating a template for just one character is unnecessary and redundant.

Kaizoku-hime

I see merit in your idea of splitting things up and that may have to be done however, it doesn't solve the question of what is better a splitted up, nice divided list or a splitted up nice divided template.

Yatanogarasu

I don't know the exact reason why the golden lion template was done that way but to me it seems it was done because those animals are basically not part of his crew they are just his personal army and don't necessarily need to be listed. Please correct me if I am wrong. I might think to deeply about this and it could have been done just because it was a very long list. And if that is the case then for this instance it was a good decision to do it like that however I can't see this option being a good decision for this template. Because to me it would be seriously decrease the value I believe it brings to the page and the wikia overall.

Closing Statements

All in all I feel it is best to remove the lists and put the template there instead of them, however I am not an unreasonable person and I do actually see al lot of merit in Kaizoku-hime's idea of splitting things. the current template can be divided into 5 templates :one active, one former, one captured, one deceased and one non-canon template.

(OnePieceNation 21:46, April 18, 2012 (UTC))