Forum:Nakama Translation

Discussion
OK this is going crazy and nobody starts a proper discussion. Mugiwara Franky won't unlock the page unless we settle this out. So please try to avoid edit war on the episode pages in question too. Basically the question is if Nakama shall be part of terms that we do not translate on the wiki like many other (character names, Devil fruit, attacks, shichibukai...). From what I understand, even if there is no official source, the term Nakama is use in a more particular way than what it is standard in Japanese. Even if it's not the case, my main objection would be that the concept of Nakama cannot be translate in a single word in English. In the episode list the same word is translated as friends, comrade, group, crew... Hence, I'm afraid we loose something. Since everybody knows what Nakama refers too, I don't think it is much a problem to keep it. Kdom 06:28, June 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * The Word has no special meaning whatsoever. That was a misconception started by Kaizoku Fansubs. The word simply means "(Part of a) Group" you use it to refer to members a group or members of a group of Friends just as you would also refer to your coworkers as your "Nakama" in Japanese, even the ones you hate, because they're part of the same group as you. In a Pirate manga, that is your "Crewmates" or your "Crew".
 * The word DOES get used during some high-emotion scenes, but those scenes have just as much high emotion if the word is translated, because it's the weight of the scenes and the character relationships. When Luffy says "NAMI!! OMAE WA ORE NO NAKAMA DA!", you feel for the scene, not because of a word, but because it's the emotional cap on everything they've been through. When Usopp says "I'm leaving the Crew" (crew being "Nakama" in Japanese) you get emotional over the scene because Usopp is leaving after being with them for 200+ episodes, NOT because of the word used.
 * Leaving the word untranslated also has the adverse effect of making the word out to be something it's not, so when characters use it when it has little importance, it ends up seeming like a bigger deal than it really is. Again, case-in-Point, the Davy Back Fight. In the DBF, when you win, you literally "Force" someone to become your "Nakama", and that's the word they use during the arc. Chopper was forced onto their team, and in the anime there was filler where the whole CREW was almost made into Foxy's "Nakama". At no point during these proceedings did anyone say "He/we may be in your crew (Ichimi) but we'll NEVER Be your 'Nakama' Foxy!" They didn't say that, because the word is not given that weight or importance in Japan. Luffy's crew isn't special because they're his "Nakama", they're special because they're HIS Crew.
 * Finally, last case. The General "Pro-Nakama" argument is that, the word "Nakama" means "A Bond Greater than Family" and that's why it can't be translated because there is no word that means that in English. But here's a curious thing. The Whitebeard Pirates. The ENTIRE Manga, crews refer to their crewmates with "Nakama", but the Whitebeard Pirates behave differently, acting like a "Family". They're the first pirate crew in the manga to do that, they even call Whitebeard "Father". Oda did this on PURPOSE. The idea was "The other pirates are only 'Nakama', but we're 'Kazoku' (Family)". That was the point of what happened when Ace and Whitebeard died. All Whitebeard wanted was to create a "Family".
 * If "Nakama" really means a "Bond deeper than Family", why did Whitebeard want a "Family"? Why didn't he want "Nakama"? The Answer is simply because "Nakama" does not mean that. It was a misconception started by Kaizoku Fansubs because they couldn't figure out a nice sounding way to translate Luffy's "NAMI! OMAE WA ORE NO NAKAMA DA!" Line in Arlong Park. dythm, the head of K-F at the time, admitted much later that this was true, and said he himself "expressed concern that the term would get overused" in a news post at their forums, which he reposted to Arlong Park later. But the line is perfectly translatable, Viz did the best job of it IMO, they put "NAMI! YOU'RE ONE OF US NOW!!".
 * The Continued use of the phrase simply spreads the misconception even more. And yes, the EDITORS here know what Nakama means, but this is supposed to be an encyclopedia for OTHER People, and this spreads that false information and confusion to those other people.
 * So that's it, it should be translated, plain and simple. It's not a Name of something, and I think Foxy's ability to "Force" someone to become your "Nakama" and Whitebeard wanting a "Family" proves this. DemonRin 06:52, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Then what about Vivi, when I asked why she was not in the Straw Hat crew, I was answered that she was just a temporary passenger, but she is a "Nakama". The word is more than crew for Luffy since it is both crew and friend. Kdom 07:58, June 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * The way Vivi's scene goes in Japanese is like this:
 * Vivi: "If We Ever Meet again, will you still consider me a part of your crew?!"
 * Technically Vivi is in fact a member of the crew, just not an active member, so the Wiki doesn't consider her one. But that's why Oda drew her with the crew on color spreads and the Anime gave her an eyecatch. Vivi is a member of the crew, just not an active one.
 * That's the reason that scene was so heavy, it was because Vivi wasn't going with them but was still being considered a member of the crew. DemonRin 08:12, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

The Arlong scene perfectly shows why it should stay as Nakama. Arlong calls Nami his "nakama", but it has a completely different meaning than what Luffy feels it means. Nakama has no real translation, it's interpreted differently by different characters. Arlong considers it to just be "someone who works with me", Foxy thinks it as "one of our crew", and Luffy considers it to be a bond deeper than just "on my crew". It should stay as nakama. 166.137.12.57 23:27, June 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * None of those things have anything to do with the word used, it's entirely based on the situation around the word. Luffy Values his Crew, Arlong does not, and Foxy is fine trading them. I'm sorry, I speak Japanese, this word means "Crewmate/Crew". It has no special meaning. The Special bond between the Straw Hats comes from their actual BOND together, the word has absolutely nothing to do with it. That's why they wrote a song called "Family" where the Straw Hats Sing about being "Family", they don't say "Oretachi wa, Nakama" because the word "Nakama" Isn't Strong Enough to define their bond. I mean, if "Nakama" means "A bond deeper than Family", wouldn't calling themselves "Family" be a step back from "Nakama"? And in the same song, there is a line sung by Luffy that goes "Saikou no Nakama Nara, Saikou Ni Tsuyoinda". It translates to "If you have the best of friends, then you can all be the best together!". "Saikou" Is a qualifier of "the best" or "The highest", so in that line, Luffy is saying "The Best of Nakama!". How can there be a "Best of" if the term ALREADY MEANS "A Bond deeper than Family"? Anyone who thinks Nakama "has no real translation" was just brainwashed by Kaizoku Fansubs I'm afraid.


 * I'm sorry, I know this fanbase loves the word, but it's just contributing to the spread if misinformation, and until we stop using it on sites like this, it'll never stop. If the power of the statements in the episode titles is what you're worried about, I'll retranslate them myself to sound better than just "Comrade". But the word NEEDS to be translated to stop people from thinking it means something it doesn't. DemonRin 03:19, June 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * I too believe that the word "Nakama" should stay translated in every case it is used, be it in the episode names, profile pages, character relationships, etc etc. Simply because not all people who visit the site know what the word means; and they could get confused easily, if they stumbled on a term used excessively without knowing it's meaning. This way the average reader of this wikia would have no problems reading this wikia.


 * I also want to note that Kdom is right about the word "nakama" having a more special meaning in the world of One Piece because that's indeed the truth and it's something not seen in other animes (I'm only talking about anime because in a translated manga it's more difficult to notice unless you can comprehend and read it in its raw form). Kaizoku Fansubs did good to make that noticeable by leaving it untranslated but that's not something we should follow as a wikia. MasterDeva 08:35, June 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for agreeing on the issue of whether or not to translate it, but I must still insist that the word has no special meaning in the Manga. I don't read scanlations or the Viz version of this manga, I read it in Raw Japanese. When I started reading One Piece, I was just beginning to learn Japanese, so I bought into the whole "Nakama is A Special Word" misconception myself. As I learned the language, however, and began to read and watch the series untranslated, I realized that was false. dythm of Kaizoku admitted they only came to the decision to leave it untranslated because of difficulty in translating that ONE scene in Arlong Park, and he himself was worried the word would become overused and take on the life it has. I linked it earlier here. This is dythm, the HEAD Of Kaizoku, the group responsible for the Nakama debacle saying this. It's true Luffy has a strong bond with his crew, but that strong bond has nothing to do with the word being used. If that were the case, why would Luffy just throw the word out the way he does sometimes? In Thriller Bark, he asked 3 people to become his "Nakama", Brook, The Cerberus, and was ABOUT to ask that tree before they stopped him. He hadn't gone through ANYTHING with them, he had no bond with Brook (yet), he had no bond with the Cerberus, and he ESPECIALLY had no bond with that tree, they had just met. He asked them to become his "Nakama" simply because they were all cool looking and he wanted them on his "Crew", because that's what the word means. The weight the word seems to have doesn't come from the word being used, it comes from the bond Luffy shares with his crew in particular. THAT is where the weight comes, not from a word but from the writing of the story and the way the characters interact, and frankly it insults the story writing to say you need a special word to communicate that.
 * Again, Luffy wouldn't just throw the term around as loosely as he did during Arlong Park if he really believed it had that kind of meaning. He loves and trusts his crew because they're his FRIENDS, not because of a word.DemonRin 12:02, June 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for responding DemonRin and for providing further argumentation to this subject. First I'd like to say that I've read your complete message earlier before posting my response (having checked the AP link too of course) and I'll say that just because Kaizoku Fansubs kept the term "nakama" untranslated; regardless of whether they had difficulty with it or not, doesn't change it from what it has become in the anime.


 * As for Luffy using the term so loosely actually is just Luffy being himself; he would get mad if someone badmouthed or hurt his friends but being the airhead he is, he has trouble behaving seriously in serious or 'not so' moments, keeping secrets (or telling lies for that matter) and overall he is the type of person who will act first and think afterwards.


 * You shouldn't be bothered with what Luffy says most of time though unless its one of his moments of enlightenment or he enters serious mode. ;D As for the word itself insulting the story I'll have to disagree with that BUT I do agree that the one think that describes the bonds between Luffy's companions and friends are their feelings towards each other and not just any word or two. Just my honest opinion. ^_^ MasterDeva 14:04, June 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, you still haven't addressed any of the issues I've brought up, but regardless, arguing with MasterDeva over the proper meaning of Nakama is moot at this point. Regardless of what he thinks of the word in general, he agrees with me that it should be translated here. It'd be dumb to further argue with my ally. Does anyone else care to chime into the issue? Maybe even the guy I got into the initial edit war with in the first place? I don't think the opinions of 3 name members and one unregistered member count as a "consensus".DemonRin 21:43, June 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm strongly in favor of using Nakama. The problem is that, within the context of One Piece, there is no single translation for "nakama". If you want to use it as "friend", then how do you explain Arlong calling Nami her Nakama? If you want to use it as "crewmate", then what point does any of the stuff with Vivi have? If there was one single translation that you wanted to choose, that'd be fine, but the problem is that translations for it are all over the place. The word itself speaks more volumes than "fellow" or "crew" ever does. The Pope 00:32, June 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * "Friend" and "Crewmate" both work. The point was Arlong using the word the same way as Luffy, even though Arlong does not think of Nami as really being his "Friend" he referred to her with the word ANYWAY. That's why there was a part where he said "She's a valuable asset, I mean, she's my friend (Nakama)" The POINT was that Arlong was calling her a part of his "crew" when she clearly isn't. And I already explained Vivi. "If we ever meet again, will you still consider me a part of this crew?!" The point of that scene, which everyone apparently missed thanks to Nakama being left untranslated, was that Vivi wanted to know if she was still a member of the crew even though she wasn't going with them. The answer was yes, Vivi is still a Straw Hat, always will be. If you notice, all the people in favor of keeping it untranslated are the people who DON'T know Japanese and are drawing this "Deeper meaning" for the word from the FANSUBS. I watch this series Raw and I own volumes 1-53 of the manga in Raw Japanese, and that's the way I read it. The Word. Nakama. Has. No. Special. Meaning. It means "Part of a group". In a Pirate Manga, that's usually your crew. Any special meaning comes from the character relationships themselves, not the word being used. I'm sorry, I know this fanbase is attached to the word, but it's a fact.DemonRin 09:56, June 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * Point taken DemonRin, you don't have to repeat it to make it any more clear. I believe though you are taking it this a tiny bit more stubbornly than you should. Yes you are right that the One Piece fanbase has a strong attachment to the word Nakama (and that most of the times tend to not see things clearly if I may add) but don't you think that sometimes a certain meaning or word can become special because of the circumstances surrounding it!? The word itself doesn't have any special meaning and the definition that you gave is indeed accurate, because in their daily conversations Japanese use it casually from what I recall.


 * You know, you could see it from that point too. In the world of One Piece that we see through Luffy's and the Straw Hat Pirates side that one word is important! That's another way to use to approach something differently. As long as we can agree on what's the best we can do from our side to better help the visitors who are reading this wikia, I don't see any other problem we need to discuss about. MasterDeva 11:31, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

This Wikia does not use official sources for titles. If you want a wikia that does that then go to the Naruto wikia. Nakama is a term used by many One Piece fans and should remain regardless of what a single person wants. SeaTerror 16:56, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

Rin is just running things in circles, so let's try to bring some sense into this.

As it stands, it seems like everyone (the five other people who posted here) are in favor of Nakama, while Rin is alone on not using Nakama. I think this should go by majority rule, but to avoid assumptions, let's run this by the book.

(Poll move at the bottom of the discussion)


 * No, MasterDeva said he believes it has the "super special meaning" (That isn't really there) too, but that he feels we should translate it here to avoid confusion with anyone who doesn't watch fansubs. (If I read his posts correctly)
 * Avoiding spreading the misconception is only ONE reason to fix this, Avoiding confusion in people not in the know is another. Sure WE all know what the word means, Kaizoku shoved this bit if misinformation down our throats. But anyone new to the series coming here to look for information will be confused when they come and see something that isn't a proper noun left in Japanese.
 * Heck, "Devil Fruit" is a proper noun, and this Wikia translates it. "Pirate King" is a proper noun, and the "Pirate" section translates it as "Pirate King" rather than leaving it in Japanese. "Whitebeard", "Blackbeard" and "Straw Hat" are proper nouns, but Newgate, Teach, and Luffy's sections don't refer to them as "Shirohige", "Kurohige" and "Mugiwara". Why should "Nakama", a word that means "Crew" and is not even a proper noun take precedence in the "Untranslated" department over those ACTUAL proper nouns?DemonRin 15:48, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

I can tell you know absolutely nothing about fansubbing. The majority of fansubs leave some Japanese words untranslated. Usually attacks and honorifics.Nobody would be confused about it. They would just look up the word if they didn't know it and be fine with it. Also if you noticed only Devil Fruit is translated and none of actual fruits are translated. SeaTerror 19:12, June 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * I am a fansubber, I do Hellsing. But "Nakama" is not an attack, and is not an honorific. It's a normal Japanese word.DemonRin 23:05, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

Read all of my comment before you respond next time. The majority of fansubs leave some Japanese words untranslated. Not to mention you ignored the part about nobody getting confused. SeaTerror 01:53, June 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Considering I know several people who were confused at "Nakama" at first, and the fact that I myself started on this series before I knew Japanese and I Was confused, I think when you say "nobody" got confused, you're dead wrong.
 * EVERYBODY knows what a Pirate CREW is, even the people who believe the Nakama Lie. But not everyone knows what a "Nakama" is. And it's not a Proper noun, there is no legitimate reason other than "This is what the fansubbers told us and we got used to it so we prefer that now". If it was a proper noun, or it was legitimately untranslatable, I'd understand the notion of leaving it untranslated. But it's neither of those things. It means "Crew". And I'm very VERY against continuing the Nakama Lie, we should kill it so nobody else falls prey to it.DemonRin 14:49, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Just gonna add some viewpoints. Don't know if I'm repeating things since I've only scanned certain points. From what I understand Nakama is a Japanese word that can mean lots of things depending on the context it used in. When used by Arlong, it can mean co-worker or co-conspirator. When used by Luffy, it can mean friend. Either way, regardless of who's using it, how it's used remains the same. It is often used to denote someone who is close to another in one way or another.

For fansubs not translating Nakama, I believe it's not exactly their fault for not translating the word due to certain circumstances. It's probably also not their intent to spread the "lie" as so put. However, considering the context of the word, it's not hard for some people to see it as something special. Saying that it should be completely wiped out, is a bit over extreme to a point.

For translating Nakama, it's true that it has multiple meanings and some deeper context to an extent, however using it in everyplace may not be a good idea to a certain extent. I'm not saying completely follow the Funi or 4kids translations, but at least use some restraint in some areas. Saying that it should be used everywhere and everytime due to fansubs and such, is also a bit over extreme to a point.

For my stand on the whole matter, I'd say I'm pretty much neutral. As I see it, the use of Nakama can be okay due to the context, however it should be used in moderation as it is indeed a foreign word to most English speakers.Mugiwara Franky 17:15, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Well...now that the lock on the page has passed, and everyone has put their word in, it seems that the majority is in favor of keeping it as Nakama.

Unless you have any last statements on the matter, I'll be reverting it. The Pope 02:19, June 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Umm, just because the time of the lock had ended doesn't necessarily mean the discussion is over. And although the poll says one thing, from what I see from the discussion, there's still no consensus.Mugiwara Franky 07:29, June 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes especially since the poll is a bias way to not answer Demonrin arguments. Also from what I conclude of the discussion, there are some titles where Nakama shall be translated (Gaimon episode in particular) Kdom 07:41, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

It seems that most of us disagree with Demonrin, that Nakama DOES have particular significance within the realm of One Piece. The Pope 15:29, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I still don't understand on what grounds you have come to that conclusion. It seems to have everything to do with your conditioning and your bias from watching Fansubs that keep it untranslated for years. But look at the poll that you yourself were defending as the reason for consensus. It's tied 6 to 6. Plus, Mugiwara Franky and Kdom just above here don't seem to be dead-set on "Always leave it untranslated", they are talking about translating it SOMETIMES if not doing away with the Nakama Lie entirely. We have clearly not reached consensus yet at all.DemonRin 16:12, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd like to throw in my own two cents. As Rin mentioned, a LOT of confusion about the series seems to come from the fansubs. Kaizoku-Fansubs has really twisted the perceptions on people's mentalities on what has "special meanings" and what doesn't. Watching the fanbase from a distance, I'm seeing a lot of people taking way too many liberties in their belief that the Japanese language in One Piece has magical, special meanings behind them. They don't. "Nakama" in an anime relating to pirates generally refers to crewmembers or being part of a group. There is no ifs, ands or buts about it. Trying to claim it's anything but is a gross error. You people do the SAME THING with virtually every other term in the series that it's getting to the point where English takes a back seat to all of the Japanese that flies around in these translations. Everyone continues to translate the Navy as "Marines" even though the word Oda uses in Japanese translates to Navy, everyone keeps calling the Devil Fruits by their Japanese names, EVEN WHEN STATING THEY HAVE A TRANSLATION, and everyone keeps leaving the Japanese names for groups untranslated.
 * It is literally an absolute mess. And it baffles my mind when people throw these terms around, get offended when someone corrects them about these terms have NO magical properties about them, and then act like the fansubs are always correct. I'm sorry, but they aren't. You know something is wrong when you see fansubs and scanlations throwing the word "fuck" around and all sorts of obscenities into the dialogue and try to write those off as "translations." The fansubbing community is WRONG and has always been wrong. "Nakama" has no special meaning at all. Neither does half of the crap you people you like to claim does. You only believe they do because it's a language different from yours and some of you are too big of simpletons to get the idea that the idea of calling someone your friend can be taken in different ways depending on how emotion placed behind it. It's the scene itself and the way characters are using it. Not the word. Seriously, One Piece is one of the only anime I see these days where the fanbase stupidly continues to leave in Japanese words, even when there are suitable translations. You people may as well write the subtitles in pure Japanese at this rate. Tsukento out.98.211.163.77 16:42, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Well I suppose, marines are called marines because it is written like that on every ship. And what is this unnecessary animosity ? There are very few things which are let untranslated in the wiki only the proper nouns which is standard to not translated ie Kdom 20:27, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * people name (also the occidental surnames are often used when they refer to existing pirates),
 * the name of the Devil Fruit (btw Akuma no Mi is never used, else it is a mistake),
 * the names of the organisations (I don't see the problem, you don't translate the name of a company, that's the same here).

I can tell you watch nothing other than One Piece then. 1) Many fansubs leave Japanese words untranslated. Not just in One Piece.

2) If Oda wanted it to be Navy then he would not have EVERYTHING in the manga say Marine.

3)Nobody cares if there is a proper translation for names in many series. Not just One Piece. Many wikia's use Japanese names instead of English versions. There's a reason why Soul Reaper is not used on the Bleach Wikia. SeaTerror 23:03, June 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Regardless of his feelings on the matter, you guys just named several legitimate reasons to leave something untranslated: If it is a proper noun.
 * Nakama is not. It is not the name of something at all. The heightened status the word has comes entirely from the fans, it has no such meaning in Japanese, and the Japanese fanbase (who read the series like I do, Raw) understand the weight of those scenes perfectly despite the fact that the normal unassuming Japanese word "Nakama" is being used.
 * The General argument for not translating Nakama is "a word like 'friend' or 'crewmate' is too weak and unassuming to convey what Luffy means when he says it". To the people reading this series in Japan, it's original target audience, they're seeing Luffy use a normal, weak, unassuming word. In Japan, you use "Nakama" to refer to your coworkers, even the ones you hate, because the word doesn't refer to the bond between anyone, it simply refers to "A group" or "Members of a group". It was Oda's intent to use such an unassuming word, because his writing is good enough so that the feelings of Luffy and his crew are communicated regardless of the word being used. And what's more, it's used specifically as an unassuming word because when Whitebeard's crew starts to refer to each other as "Family" you're SUPPOSED to feel that Whitebeard and his crew use terminology Stronger Than what Luffy and his crew use. Oda did that on Purpose. Whitebeard's crew is supposed to treat each other like a "Family" and that's supposed to have more weight than "Nakama". That's the point of Whitebeard's dream. He didn't want any mere "Nakama", he wanted a "Family". If the fans treat the word as though it means "A Bond deeper than Family", where is the logic in what Whitebeard wanted? If "Nakama" truly means that, why does he want a "Family" when he could have "Nakama"? The answer is that the word does Not have any deeper meaning, and Oda, the author, did that On Purpose. We should preserve the intent of the author, and not elevate the word, and let the actions of the characters speak louder than the words.DemonRin 01:30, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Whitebeard's aside the point; just because he wanted a family and not Nakama doesn't make Nakama not important. He didn't want a "crew", or "friends"; he wanted a family. That's why it's significant.

Anyway, I'm with what Kdom said earlier; I believe that we should leave Nakama alone as is in most areas, but for some episode titles, such as with Gaimon, it's okay to translate it. It's just idiotic to translate it 50 different ways to fit the situation; if we're going to do that, we might as well leave it as "Nakama", if it encapsulates all of those meanings. The Pope 04:39, June 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Earlier you were ready to go with the Poll results. What happened to that?
 * We could just translate it as "Friends" or "Friend" on pretty much every count and it will fit the context of what's going on, at least for the episode titles. "The Friends' Whereabouts", "Gaimon and his Amazing Friends", "All for the sake of protecting my Friends", "Nami is my Friend!".
 * And Hey, I just saw you change some of them. I'm reverting it, we aren't done discussing it yet I don't think.DemonRin 05:03, June 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I reverted it because anonymous users are changing it without inputting discussion. And "friends" doesn't work with stuff involving Foxy and Arlong. The Pope 05:10, June 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Look, I just reverted it back to the way it was when Mugiwara Franky first locked it. Your rationale was "Popular Vote" when you put all the "Nakama"s back. Look at the vote now. Translate it is the clear winner. So if that was your rationale for changing it in the first place, we should just go with what the true consensus is now no? Also, I just checked all the episode titles that feature the word "Nakama" and Foxy and Arlong's crews are never mentioned in them, so that argument is moot. If you guys want, I will personally go through and re-translate and rewrite every single one to sound right. Would that make you happy? As for what to put for the time being, the Nakama situation should stay the way it was when Mugiwara Franky first locked it until the discussion here is done. That was the point of him locking it, and he said up there that just because it's unlocked now does not mean discussion is over.DemonRin 05:16, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I just re-translated every episode with Nakama in it up to some of the most recent. I alternated between using "Friend" and "Crewmate/Crew" and it works out perfectly.
 * 043 - The Fall of the Fishman Empire! Nami is One of Us!
 * 102 - Ruins and Lost Ones! Vivi, Friends, and the State of a Country.
 * 104 - Luffy Vs. Vivi! The Tearful Oath Between Friends
 * 114 - Swear on the Dreams of your Friend! Combat at Molehill 4th Avenue
 * 234 - To a Friend's Rescue! Raid Franky House
 * 252 - The Steam Whistle Splinters the Crew! The Sea Train Starts Up!
 * 256 - To Rescue our Friends! The Solemn Vow that Unites Foes!
 * 273 - Everything to Protect My Friends! Gear 2nd: Start Up!
 * 278 - Say You Wanna Live! We Are Friends!!
 * 281 - Tears That Wove The Bonds of Friendship! Nami's World Map!
 * 283 - All for my Friends' Sake! The Darkness Deep Inside Robin!
 * 377 - My Friends' Pain is My Pain, Zoro Fights Ready to Die.
 * 379 - Brook's Past - Sad Farewell to the Cheerful Crew
 * 381 - A New Crewmate! - The Musician, "Humming Brook".
 * 384 - Brook's Hard Struggle - The Difficult Path to Becoming a True Crewmate?
 * 405 - Disappearing Crewmates - The Final Day of the Straw Hat Crew.

The rest are all "The Crew's Whereabouts" and that works perfectly for all of them. So as you can see, it's not "Idiotic" and doesn't take translating it "50 different ways" to do this. After this silliness is behind us, I also wana go through EVERY episode title and re-translate all the mistakes. Can we agree that these look good and just go with them? The Poll shows a clear victor right now...DemonRin 05:45, June 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * But see? That's the problem; you can't just go between "crew" and "friend". The point I'm trying to make that if there isn't a clear-cut translation for the term, then it should be left untranslated. You've seen so yourself, that "friend" doesn't work in some occasions, and "crewmate" doesn't work in others either. There is no single word to interpret the wide scope of the meaning of the word except for the word itself, "Nakama". The Pope 06:29, June 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * That argument is extremely flimsy and doesn't hold any water at all because you could make that same claim about ANY word in the Japanese language.
 * "Tasukete" means "Help", "Save" or "Rescue". In Arlong Park, Nami looks at Luffy and says "Luffy... Tasukete..." which is "Luffy... Help me...". While in Enies Lobby, Luffy says "Oretachi wa Robin wo Tasukete!" or "We're gonna go Save Robin!". Just like here, you can mix the terms up, but "Luffy... Save me" sounds awkward in the place of Arlong Park, and "We're gonna help Robin!" sounds weak and out of place in Enies Lobby. So does that mean we now have to leave "Tasukete" in Japanese because it has no one clear meaning? "So Luffy and the crew headed out to Tasukete Robin".
 * And then there's the 100s of different ways to say "I/me" in Japanese that don't translate properly over to English AT ALL. "Ore" = super informal male, Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, Usopp and Chopper use it. "Atashi" is feminine, Nami uses it. "Watashi" is respectful and Gender-neutral, Robin uses it. "Boku" is a more respectful masculine way of saying it, Usopp DISTINCTLY Switches to this when he's Sogeking. It's a very marked change in his speech pattern. Translating all of this over into English and preserving the meaning is literally impossible, not a single official translator, official or not, tries to carry this over, it would be impossible. This is literally an untranslatable set of terms, should we start leaving these untranslated? "Robin! Ore will Tasukete You now!"
 * Then there's "You". The Japanese word for "You" is exactly the same as "I/Me". "Omae" is informal male, and is used by all the boys on the crew. "Anta" is informal feminine, Nami uses it. "Anata" is gender-neutral respectful, Robin Uses it. "Kimi" is masculine informal, Usopp switches to it when he's Sogeking. Again, Literally IMPOSSIBLE to translate this. So now let's look at our sentence: "Robin! Ore Will Tasukete Omae now!".
 * Not enough? Howabout: "Dame", "Umi", "Yarou", "Kisama", Hell KAIZOKU (Pirate) is a word that has distinctly different meanings and weight to it depending on who is using it. When Kuro or Bellamy talks about being "Kaizoku" they have a distinctly different definition of the term than when Luffy or Blackbeard talks about it. The World Government also has a distinctly different view on what makes a "Kaizoku". It's the EXACT same situation as Nakama now that I think about it. Everyone in the series uses it, but it always has different weight to it. Like in Drum when Luffy defended Hiruluk's Pirate Flag. Saying it was a symbol that stood for more than Wapol could ever understand. There's even a part where Buggy defines "Kaizoku" as being people who search for treasure, Nami defines a Kaizoku as a ruthless criminal whom she hates, and Luffy Defines a "Kaizoku" as "Someone who is Free on the Ocean!". The word is easily translatable, just like Nakama, but when characters use it, they all have DISTINCTLY different views on what makes a "Kaizoku". Should we leave THAT untranslated too? How far must we take this?
 * However, It only took TWO different Synonyms for the same word in order to properly translate "Nakama", it's far easier to translate than MOST other Japanese words. And it's NOT a proper noun. But if you must nitpick like that, then I'll simply rewrite them so they ALL Read with either "Crewmate" or "Friend", because that is entirely possible too.DemonRin 08:25, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, this seems to be clearly getting to be much more heated than it needs to be based on some words spoken. Please remember that this is supposed meant to be a discussion on how to better the wikia in an orderly manner. Both sides have presented arguments however if one or both sides can't cool down for a bit and be polite then nothing's gonna be understood less be achieved.Mugiwara Franky 09:57, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Uh...in all of those instances, Kaizoku still meant pirate. And having multiple Japanese words mean the same English word is the exact opposite of the problem going on right now. But MF is right; we do need some kind of compromise.

I'm in favor of leaving most of it as "Nakama", but translating only the few where it doesn't seem to mesh as well, such as with Gaimon and whatnot. The Pope 14:54, June 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, I don't see where it was getting "Heated" but I'll choose my words more carefully I guess. The Idea of that wasn't "Look, multiple Japanese words that all mean the same thing" it was "These words are literally untranslatable, because translating them over to "I" or "Me" loses the underlying meaning in them. Usopp specifically switches his speech style when he becomes Sogeking and starts using "Boku" instead of "Ore. And the rest of them are all gender-specific. Ore is for Guys, Atashi is for Women, Watashi is Gender neutral. There is no way to translate that, at all. But we DO translate that word. And you ignored when I brought up "Tasukete" (Help, Rescue, or Save) and that one is pretty much the same exact issue as Nakama.
 * I know it's hard to ignore the word since you've been told by the fansubbers for so long that it has this deeper meaning that makes it untranslatable, it's hard to step back and take an objective look at the situation after all that time and conditioning.
 * But seriously, I know you dismissed it but "Kaizoku" DOES have the same thing going for it.
 * With Nakama, the general argument is that "Everyone in the series uses the term differently".
 * Arlong, Kuro and Moria treat their "Nakama" like pawns and don't think much of the word.
 * Foxy sees his like trading cards and identifiers of status and uses the DBF to try to get more to look better.
 * Luffy sees his cremates as being his best friends and most faithful partners.
 * With Kaizoku:
 * Buggy, Kuro, and Krieg see it as a term for those who lust for power and treasure.
 * The World Govt. Sees "Kaizoku" as criminals which must be expunged
 * Luffy, Usopp, Hiruluk, and Chopper see the pirates as a noble group who go to the sea and have no regrets.
 * Just like "Nakama" there are powerful scenes where the word is used. Specifically the scene when Wapol called himself a "Kaizoku" and attacked Hiruluk's flag. That pissed Luffy off and prompted a speech from him about what a Kaizoku TRULY is. Luffy has never had a "This is what a Nakama REALLY is" speech, not even when Foxy almost succeeded in literally Forcing Chopper to become his "Nakama". In fact, this very Wikia has a section on "Pirates" and it flat out states that "Pirates" isn't entirely accurate to describe them because "Pirates" and "Privateers" are often lumped together. Look
 * "Privateers and pirates are often grouped together as one and the same. The only real difference was that privateers can be consider hired "pirates", who were contracted to work for their governments against other nations on the seas, and were generally allowed to do anything they wanted so long as they did not attack their own countries ships. Pirates however, work for no one and worked on their own accords. In One Piece, the Shichibukai are based on "Privateers", however the Straw Hats themselves have done actions that would fall into this classification as well; such as helping Alabasta against Crocodile (orginally Nami only agreed to protect Vivi for a price)."
 * So what are the Straw Hats? Are they "Pirates" or are they "Privateers"? If there is no clear classification for what a "Kaizoku" is, does that mean it too should be left untranslated? The answer is no, we translate it. I could literally apply the same logic you're using in favor of "Nakama", that it doesn't have one, clear cut translation, to Any word in the Japanese language when translating. "Tatakai" means a "Physical Fight" or "Battle", it's used very often in One Piece, but it also can refer to a verbal argument, those two aren't exactly the same thing. Just like a "Crewmate" and a "Friend" are the same but with different weight and inflection, a "Physical Fight" and an "Argument" are two distinctly different things. "Yarou" is a derogatory term usually translated as "Bastard" or "Asshole". But when Luffy wants to rally his crew, he shouts "Oi, Yarou domo!" to rally them, and in that circumstance you'd translate it as "Hey you guys!" because obviously Luffy is not insulting them. Heck, then there's "Takara" which is the Japanese word for "Treasure". JUST Like Nakama, it can refer to different things and characters in this series have VASTLY different vies on what you consider your "Takara" or "Treasure". Nami sees it as valuable stuff, Luffy sees his Hat as treasure, that guy in Alabasta saw his Dance Powder as treasure, Gaimon saw his Animals as his treasure. There was even a scene where this became an issue, when Buggy tore Luffy's hat and he went "My Takara!" and Buggy said "Takara isn't something like a hat, Takara is Gold, & Jewels!"
 * A rule in translation has to be universal. The rule here is; it gets left untrnaslated if it's a proper noun. That rule makes sense and works for literally everything left untranslated on this Wikia because they're ALL proper nouns. Except Nakama, it's the only one that isn't. And the rule you apply to Nakama to keep IT untrnanslated can't work because you can't apply it universally, because literally every word in this language doesn't translate over perfectly. If that were the case then Google Translate and Babelfish would actually WORK most of the time. The only reason it gets applied to Nakama is because people are biased to that word, and that's not grounds to leave something untranslated.DemonRin 18:44, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

I agree entirely with DemonRin. It just seems the only arguments for leaving the word untranslated are fueled by emotions based on misinformation. Whether the word is special or not (I say it's not), the tight knit relationship between the crew members is obvious regardless of the language used. Bji22 02:12, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

The problem with that argument is that Kaizoku can 99.9% of the time always be translated to English as "Pirate", whereas Nakama has no single translation that works on every occasion, hence why it should be left as is if no single translation can be found. The Pope 03:55, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * You keep ignoring me when I say "You could make that exact same argument about every single word in the Japanese language".DemonRin 04:24, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * The only other examples you've given are words like "Kaizoku" that you could almost make the argument that it can have different meanings but all of those translate to "Pirate", and when one English word can have many Japanese translations, but that's the inverse point. The Pope 04:50, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Are you selectively reading my posts? "Yarou" means "Asshole" or "Bastard", in fact, that's what Chopper says when he does his "I won't be happy if you compliment me asshole!" line. Luffy uses it to rally the crew, watch when he is talking about shipping off, he says "Oi Yarou Domo!". He's not calling THEM assholes, he's saying "Hey you guys!". It cannot be translated the same way in both situations because one is supposed to be an insult, and the other is just Luffy being like "Hey Guys!" If you used "Guy" as an insult it'd be like "You... Guy...", doesn't work does it? And Luffy... "Hey, Get ready Assholes!"... very out of character for him isn't it?
 * And you keep reading exactly the wrong meaning when I bring up the ways to say "I/me". The fact that there are many of them has NOTHING to do with the point I'm trying to make. It comes entirely from the MEANING behind them. They all have a meaning that cannot be translated into English AT ALL.
 * Let's just focus on ONE Of them since every time I bring up more than one, you throw that back at me. Boku. Boku means "I/me" but it is a specifically masculine way of saying it. Usopp makes a MARKED effort to switch it speech style to use that when he's Sogeking. It's a very noticeable character trait for Sogeking when you watch the series in Japanese. That whole situation is literally untranslatable. That is the point. Not that there are several different ways to say it, but that the inflection behind them are Literally impossible to translate. Just like you are claiming "Nakama" is. Let me repeat this, because I don't want you going "But it's multiple Japanese words with just one English meaning" again. I'm Not talking about there being many words. I am Only talking about the fact that they all have a Deeper Meaning that the dictionary definition simply cannot convey, which is pretty much the major defense of leaving Nakama untranslated.
 * Want more examples of Japanese words that have no clear translation? "Saikyo". It means "Strongest", "Greatest", "Best", "Highest". It can refer to the strength of a person, so "Strongest" is how it should be translated there. But it can ALSO be used to talk about the best work someone did, or the best built boat, or the highest up location. "Strongest" does NOT work there, it has a completely different meaning. Then you'd say "Highest Quality" or "Best", because "Strongest" doesn't work anymore. And you can't say "He has the best strength" when talking about someone's strength. I mean, who goes "Yeah, you have the best strength out of all of us!" Not only are you still altering the term (You're still adding the word "Strength" to the equation) but NOBODY talks like that! When talking about a person's strength you translate "Saikyo" as "The Strongest" and when you're talking about something like a boat, like "Thousand Sunny-Go wa Saikyo Fune!" you'd translate that as "The Thousand Sunny is the Greatest ship". When the Straw Hats are crossing the Red Line, Luffy says "Saiyko no Umi! Gurando Rain!" or "The Greatest Ocean! The Grand Line!". "Strongest" doesn't work, the ocean itself has no strength, and never fights the other oceans. you can't say that. "Best" doesn't even work, it's too weak sounding for the Grand Line.
 * Then there's the famous "Hige". As in from "Shirohige", "Kurohige" (Whitebeard, Blackbeard). The term doesn't actually mean "Beard", it means "Facial Hair" they have no word to denote the difference between a mustache and a beard. So you translate it differently based on the situation. If there was a line where a man had an interesting mustache, and the characters were like "Kono otoko no Hige wo mitte!" or "Look at that guy's Mustache!", but if the same scene happened but the guy had no Mustache, only a beard, you'd translate it as "Beard". I mean, "Whitebeard" isn't actually accurate, he has no beard. Should we change it to the "White Facial Hair" Pirates? No, because that would be ridiculous.
 * Do I need to tell you more, or do you get what I'm saying yet? This Language is FULL of things that don't always translate over the same way at all. I don't know why you seem to think this isn't the case. I mean, I actually know this language... I took 3 years of formal lessons...DemonRin 05:31, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Buh you are a bit unfair Demonrin provide many example beside Kaisoku and it becomes more and more difficult to defend the point beside the fact that it is a word we have come to like. I don't blame the fansub for that, they did not brainwash me it's just the normal way the different languages interact with eachother ( Well 50% of english words are based on french after all), I will continue to use it in the forum but based on the point which have been made in the discussion I think we should translate it in articles. Kdom 06:25, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Have we ever had problems with translating stuff like "saikyo" and that whole boku thing? Again, that doesn't matter if there are multiple ways in Japanese to say "I"; it's still "I". That's aside the point.
 * The only other example I can see that can actually be put into play (aside from Kaizoku, which, again, always translates to Pirate, is the "hige" thing. It's true that it technically means "facial hair"; however, "BlackFacialHair" and the like sounds kinda off, and since there were actual pirates named "Blackbeard" and the like, translations went with beard.
 * While you bring up some valid points, the problem is that we never have problems with any of these; when they have to be translated for use in the wiki, there's almost always a single translation to use. That's not the case with Nakama; there's no single translation that works. It's not just that "we stupid people who watched the fan sub think Nakama is special"; it's that there's no direct translation that perfectly gives the meaning of the word. "Friend" and "Crew" are not always interchangeable. Whether you think the word is special or not is aside from the point; the bottom line is that if a word can not be directly translated, then it should be left as is. The Pope 06:33, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * But the word can EASILY be translated. There is no translation issue whatsoever. "Mustache" and "Beard" are not always interchangeable. And there really is a pirate called "Blackbeard", but there isn't one called "Whitebeard". And he doesn't have a beard, he has a Mustache, but we don't call him "WhiteMustache". There are also times when the word is used and it has nothing to do with Newgate or Teach. As for Saikyo, it doesn't matter if nobody has ever raised a translation issue, nobody has because nobody ever thought to. It is STILL a word that has no one clear-cut translation in English. Just like 75% of the language. Just like Nakama. It's the exact same situation as Nakama, you only see a difference because you have an emotional attachment to the word "Nakama" but not "Saikyo". And... Ok, WHY did you say "Again, that doesn't matter if there are multiple ways in Japanese to say "I"; it's still "I". That's aside the point."?!?! I went Out of my way to make sure I was clear.
 * The fact that there are 5 different ways to say I is not the point I am trying to make with that.
 * The fact that there are 5 different ways to say I is not the point I am trying to make with that.
 * The fact that there are 5 different ways to say I is not the point I am trying to make with that.
 * And again The fact that there are 5 different ways to say I is not the point I am trying to make with that.
 * The Point is those words have a Very distinctly different set of meanings that Literally cannot be translated. "Boku" doesn't just mean "I". It is a masculine form and is more respectful than "Ore".
 * I think you refuse to take a step back and look at "Nakama" from an objective viewpoint, I think you've been watching fansubs too long to be able to see that the word is perfectly translatable. That is where the problem with Nakama COMEs from. Fans have been seeing it in their fansubs for so long, and have been told for so long that the word has this deep meaning that they cannot separate that emotional response from fact. Just ask yourself, if they'd ALWAYS translated Nakama and never left it untranslated, would you feel about it the way you do now? Would you even haven noticed the word from any of the several other Japanese words? And would you have lost anything from the experience? Would Luffy and his crew's journey have somehow been weaker because you aren't reading "Nakama" in the subtitles? Because if that is the case, then you must not have much faith in Oda's writing.DemonRin 06:48, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Well so much for your "The Poll shows a clear victor right now" comment. The whole point about using nakama in episode titles is that this wikia uses fansub titles and not official titles. Yet you never complained about that when arguing to use official titles. Nakama has always been used on this wikia and it should remain so. SeaTerror 07:26, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but "The fansubs did it" and "This is how it's always been" are poor arguments. Fansubs flub translations more often than people would want to believe. And if we went with what has "always been used" then we should go back to calling Bon Kurei "Bon Clay" because before Oda showed his wanted poster in the Meet Baroque Works cover story, EVERYBODY, including K-F, translated his name as "Bon Clay". That's what has "Always been used" for the vast majority of the time before we knew his name was "Bon Kurei". Same With Oars, we'd still be calling him "Odz" if we didn't get with the times and change when new information is presented. So clearly, just because something has "Always been used" doesn't make it any less wrong and that it shouldn't be corrected eventually.DemonRin 09:38, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Gonna have to agree with some of DemonRin's arguments to an extent. Fansubs may allow us to experience Japanese anime in a way that some official English companies are restricted from doing, but fansubs too have their faults as any other subbing company.Mugiwara Franky 11:30, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * While I'm not saying that fansubs are god and official translations are the devil, if we were using official translations we'd be calling the Shichibukai "Warlords" and Bon Kurei "Bon Clay", now wouldn't we?


 * Rin, I realize that "Boku" and "Ore" are different inflections of "I"; however, when translated to English, they can still be translated as "I". When translating "Nakama", it can't always be translated as "Friend" or "Crewmate", because it's one Japanese word that has multiple English meanings, not the other way around.


 * And with your statement of "if they had never translated Nakama would you have felt the same emotional response", the answer is yes. Before I read the scanlations and watched the fansubs, I read the Viz translation, where they hamfisted the translation for Nakama with "Friend", "Crewmate", "One of Us", etc. During the battle between Usopp and Miss Merry Christmas, Usopp says that a man must fight when "his friend's dreams are laughed at". I didn't feel any emotional resonance from that. None whatsoever. Then later I went back and read it scanlated, and read it as "When his Nakama's dreams are laughed at", which felt much more significant to me. Then of course there's the Arlong fight, where they kept juggling between "She's my friend", "She's my crewmate", "Nami you're one of us", so it just felt like juggling semantics. However, in the original, they were both insisting that Nami was their "Nakama", so when Luffy shouts "Nami! YOU'RE MY NAKAMA!!", it felt much more significant than "You're one of us now!". So yes, I always had felt a greater emotional response from "Nakama" than "friend" or "one of us". The Pope 15:54, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

You ignored what I said. Here's a comment you left in the edit history. "Fansubs/Scanlations are done by FANS. They are not an official source." Yet you only reverted the Nakama titles. SeaTerror 18:40, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * That means absolutely nothing. Trust me, there are several episode titles I'd love to fix. I'm just focusing on one thing at a time. On the other section talking about Episode titles, they told me if I saw an error, to just go ahead and re-translate it in my own words (Not using FUNimation) to fix them. After this is over, and I'm allowed to accurately translate everything including Nakama, I plan to go through the ENTIRE List and fix everything that's wrong. Like that "Who Will Win? Showdown Between the True Powers of the Devil!" mistranslation for episode 8. Fansubs are just not an official source for the reasons behind why you leave the term untranslated. We go with "Bon Kurei" over "Bon Clay" because there is an official source, Oda's writing in the MBW cover story, that tells us that is the case. Regardless of how much fan translations and fan input influences this Wikia, every page still has references, they all refer to facts. There is a section that talks about Speculations, in it it says "Does speculation have a place on this Wikia? No. It should be avoided at all costs. Wikia is a site for facts, and speculation is usually just Fanfiction." It's stating that even though we're fans posting information on this Wikia, we STILL use facts to determine what we do. Otherwise you'd see other things like "Zoro is such a Baka when he gets lost!" or "Nami is the Most Kawaii character in teh series!" in sections. Things like that look sloppy and unprofessional. And there is no referrable source for "Nakama" being left untranslated. The only source are Kaizoku Fansubs' message at the beginning of episode 38, and I'm sorry to say, but that falls under the blanket definition of "Fan speculation", which isn't supposed to have a place on this wikia. There are no official sources to lead credence to the apparent "Extra" meaning of Nakama. There is no SBS where Oda says "when Luffy says 'Nakama' he means 'a Bond deeper than family', it has special meaning in this story". Oda has never said that, his editors from Shueisha have never said that, Toei has never said that. Nobody on the Japanese side of production has EVER stated any referable source that would lead credence to it, making it fall into the realm of "fan specualtion". And it's the only Japanese word on this entire Wikia that does this. All the rest are Proper nouns, so the rule to leave them untranslated works universally, this one does not.
 * I've already showed you several words that cannot be translated to just one straight word in English, that has multiple meanings. "Saiyko" can mean "Best", "Strongest", "Greatest" or, "Highest up". In fact, I Just found another good example where a translation conflict ACTUALLY happened due to a word having more than one meaning!
 * "Takami"! It also means "The Top" or "Highest up", but it means that both physically AND figuratively. So it means both "The Top" or "Highest up" AND the "Summit [of a mountain]". This has ACTUALLY caused a translation issue. It even has a Mythbusters entry on this very Wikia. He literally says "See you in the Pirate Big Leagues Luffy!" but because the term can ALSO mean "The Summit of a Mountain", Stephen, Kaizoku Fansubs, hell EVERYONE translated it that way, causing thousands of fans to believe there was a physical place called the "Pirates' Summit". In fact... checking the Mythbusters page, it has PLENTY of perfect examples of words that can't be translated perfectly, that actually caused issue! The "Ouka" in "Royal Shichibukai" actually translates to "King Below", and had caused several fans to translate it as "King of The Depths", which is actually an accurate translation, and that caused people to think that was Moria's epithet. "Ojiki" means "Uncle" as in a related uncle, but can also be used to refer to anyone higher up than you, so it can also mean "Boss". This has caused people to think Kizaru is Sentomaru's uncle because that's what he calls him.
 * Nakama needs to be translated so Fans stop giving the word undeserved status. Plus, The Pope, you flat out admitted you have an emotional stake in this word, I don't think you're able to be objective in this matter and accurately debate it.DemonRin 19:42, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Actually it means a lot. It shows you are bias. You went straight for the nakama titled episodes but left everything else alone you claim to have been mistranslated. You yourself are not objective when your blatant bias is so obvious. SeaTerror 20:22, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

You keep trying to make the point that "lots of Japanese words have multiple English meanings", except for the examples you've given, they can all be translated as one word. "Saiyko" can be translated as "The Best", or "The Greatest"; there is no real difference between them except a slight manner of semantics. And "Takami" can be translated as "The Top"; translating it as that can show it both as figurative and literal.

And I think SeaTerror has a point; this seems less about proper translation and more about lashing out at fansubs. You haven't fixed anything else, aside from complaining about "Nakama" being used, and you state yourself that you want it to be translated "so fans stop giving it undeserved status". We've said it a hundred times; we do not follow official translations on here. We follow that which fits the story of One Piece the most. And within the series, "Nakama" has a deeper meaning. Maybe not to you, but the fact that it can mean "Crewmate", "Friend", etc. makes it significant enough to be left untranslated, just like "Shichibukai" and the like.

Oh, and just because I have emotional attachment to the word (which occurred after the fact, thank you very much) doesn't automatically make my argument moot. If I were to just say "We should keep Nakama cause it's a better word", then that'd be understandable. However, I've given perfectly logical reasons for keeping it around. You've given logical reasons to not use it as well, however, most of them stem from simple semantics and a desire to distance the wiki from the fansubs as much as possible, which isn't a priority for anybody on here. The Pope 23:24, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and not for nothing, but...I looked at your contribution history, and...aside from adding some images, almost every single edit you've made was either editing out "Nakama" or arguing about other translations like "Margaret" and "Gum-Gum". Just makes me wonder if you came here for any purpose other than to attempt to eradicate the word "Nakama" from the minds of viewers forever. If so, then...yeesh. The Pope 23:31, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Please stop attacking one another directly and just focus on the issue at hand. Both sides have points but they are seriously being overshadowed by comments like those expressed by SeaTerror.Mugiwara Franky 23:39, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but "Shichibukai" and "Nakama" are vastly different in terms of why they're left untranslated. One is because the fans' emotional attachment to the word, the other is logically because it's a proper noun. Nakama is literally the ONLY word that is NOT a proper noun that gets this treatment. And as for "Takami", "The Top" does NOT always work. In movie 10, Luffy flies up on a bird named Billy. If he wanted Billy to go as high as he could, he'd say "Takami". There is no such thing as "The Top" of the sky. Also, the notion that I have a bias is ridiculous. I posted about those other mistranslations in the talk thread of the Episode Guide Page BEFORE the Nakama situation started, go back and look at it. I brought it up in the talk page first to see if we could use FUNimation titles instead. When they said no, I decided to translate them myself. Then this Nakama situation broke out and it took a lot of my attention, but even during this all, I went out of my way to completely redo and revamp the DVD Releases page for the Japanese DVDs. You say you looked at my contribution history and I added "Some" Images. I just checked my contribution history, and I counted 74, and that was JUST what I uploaded to the DVD releases page when I completely revamped it. So please stop trying to paint me as a Nakama hater who came here for the sole purpose of fighting that word. And for my final word on the topic. It's simple logic. This wikia runs on a basis that, Proper nouns, as in Names of things should be left untranslated. "Nakama" is the only word that breaks that rule. The word doesn't mean that, and it would help those who aren't fansub viewers.
 * EVERYONE, please read the rest of this Comment, I think I'm onto a really good idea that satisfies everyone.

Now, I do think the Nakama page should stay, I'm not talking about eliminating that. So maybe compromise? Wait, I just got a spectacular Idea! Remove the word from the episode list and most articles, but keep Nakama's page, add a "Nakama" section to the page on "Pirates", and then have some articles that mention the word "Crew" or "Friend" during the key moments Link to the Nakama page! Like, Nami's section could read:
 * "Luffy, rising from the collapsed building, shouts, at the top of his voice, that Nami is One of Them now.

Actually, I like that. I think it satisfies all fronts. That satisfies me entirely, and then anyone who isn't in the know about the word can follow the link into Nakama's section and educate themselves, come to their OWN conclusion about the word, rather than pose one viewpoint. Then we follow the wiki's rules of verifiability, and we let the reader come to their OWN conclusion about it rather than forcing OUR opinions on them ... I really like that, I think it's a great compromise I truly think it settles all parties. Please tell me everyone agrees with this, I like it.DemonRin 00:25, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * That would work...if it weren't for the fact that a) That wouldn't work for episode titles, which can't have links to the "Nakama" page within the links to the episode page, b) you would have to link to the Nakama page every single time it's used, and c), and on a personal note, I think everyone can agree that Luffy just saying that Nami is "one of them" fizzles out, whereas YOU ARE MY NAKAMA" has more impact, whereas you feel it has any deeper meaning to it or not.


 * As it is, though, while a few new ideas (like that) are being introduced, it seems like we're just running in circles. You're saying that Nakama should be translated because it's the odd sheep out, I'm saying it shouldn't because it has multiple meanings unlike any other word debated on the wiki. I say we just let others read what we've said and given their input. Any other forms of compromise would be appreciated, but don't just state that one is better than the other unless you're leaving your one vote; otherwise this will just keep running in circles.


 * Though if I were to compromise, my stance would be with what Kdom suggested: translate it in some instances, and don't in others. The Pope 04:47, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * For feeling, "YOU ARE MY NAKAMA" and others I agree indeed have something, however feeling is not always necessarily what is required in certain situations, which is what DemonRin is saying. Situations like certain Episode titles require some translation as it may indeed be abit confusing. A hypothetical title like "They are my Nakama" which pertains to Luffy's crew and friends, could be confused with another hypothetical title like "Blackbeard Pirates, The Nakama of Evil" which pertains to an organization with close ties of one another. True, Nakama has indeed multiple meanings, however it's a matter of using which English equivalent to use in which situation, which is what DemonRin is offering from a glance.


 * Whether it be links to the Nakama page or using Nakama in certain instances though, both solutions are more or less acceptable as both are compromises to the problem in my book.Mugiwara Franky 05:45, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * To Field The Pope's concerns:
 * A: The Episode titles wouldn't be able to link to Nakama, true, but every single Episode title has the Romaji for the title below it. Like Episode 18, first episode to feature the word. "Anta ga chinjū! Gaimon to kimyō na Nakama." Link Nakama in the Romaji like that!! It will alert the reader that this word is different, as, as it stands, it would be the ONLY word on the entire Romaji set of listings that would get this treatment. Then of course, on each episode's own page there would be a link as well. As the Episode guide stands now, Nakama doesn't appear on it right now at all. I'll add the links to all the Romaji right now so you guys and look and get a feel for it. I won't change the page at all other than that, so it shouldn't hurt anything.
 * B: That's not hard, I would personally go out of my way and do it. I spent all day reworking that DVD Releases page, I can do this. As it stands, the word actually doesn't appear in the Wikia very much, not even in the SHs pages, I checked. It actually doesn't appear in Luffy's Once, and I swear I never removed any "Nakama"s from his page. I'd even go out of my way to make sure there were links added to at least all of the Straw Hats' pages. I really don't think it'd be a daunting task at all.
 * C: No, not everyone can agree with that. But that was a hypothetical idea for a translation of that line, I was trying to give an example of what I had in mind for linking to "Nakama" on each one. I could easily rewrite that line to sound better. Hell, "YOU ARE MY FRIEND!" works. I really don't understand how you lose impact without that word. That just makes it sound like you don't have faith in Oda's writing. After all, the Japanese fanbase is seeing a weak "Fizzling" word there whenever Luffy says it. That's what "Nakama" is to them. And I believe in preserving things the way the author wrote them.
 * Also, I just read you say "Though if I were to compromise, my stance would be with what Kdom suggested: translate it in some instances, and don't in others.
 * I'm sorry, but that defeats the purpose of your ENTIRE argument. You are stating that since it (according to you) has no one meaning, it should be left untranslated, rather than use multiple different words with different weights. But Leaving it untranslated Half the time is still using two different words for it, just like "Friend" and "Crewmate" would. "Nakama" and "Crewmate" or "Nakama" and "Friend" is the same.
 * My Idea for compromise has everyone win. The whole wikia will translate it, so I'm happy because the casual readers wouldn't be misled, but every instance where the word WOULD be left untranslated LINKS to the Nakama page! That way, we don't shove the phrase down fans' throats. We let them follow the links to the Nakama page, and come to their OWN conclusion, free of our opinions.DemonRin 06:20, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * The issue I have with that is that the word "Nakama" would be crunched down to one page, which would almost be the same as removing it from the wikia altogether. Just linking it to the page won't instantly make people click there. The Pope 06:41, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're working off of an assumption that they wouldn't click it. And check the Episode Guide page. I just tested out my Idea (If Mugiwara Franky doesn't like it, he can revert it) but Look. The simple act of Making "Nakama" a link every time it appears on the page in Romaji form makes it stand out, it makes it appear as though there's something more, it's the only Romaji on the entire page that is click-able like that. Isn't that the exact point you're trying to convey? People will see "Hey, this is the only click-able word here" and check it out, then they can read the "Nakama" page and come to their own conclusion on whether the word is special now.
 * Even if the Anonymous Poll isn't the best decider of consensus, it's still very telling. Regardless of who is winning right now, it's continuously hovering around a 50-50 split. There is a great deal of people in this fanbase who do not think the same way you do about the meaning of the word, and I have to admit the same on my end. There are (As of this writing) 31 who agree with me, but there are 25 who do not. It's usually much closer. That's a pretty polarized set of results. I think my idea is fair, and best of all, it doesn't show a bias, it presents both (at least on the Episode guide page where the "Nakama" links are very eye-catching) and lets the reader make up their OWN Mind!DemonRin 06:47, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Look, I'm against it; linking it to the "Nakama" page is only a stone's throw away from not having it at all. If you're going to do that, you might as well just translate it entirely, which not all of us are for. Wait until you get other people's opinion on the matter before going and doing that yourself. The formal poll, as it stands, is pretty much even, if not slightly leaning towards leaving "Nakama" untranslated; by no means does that mean "go ahead and translate them but leave a link anyway". The Pope 06:59, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Seriously? You reverted it? As the page stands right now, the way it was when Mugiwara Franky first locked it, the word is ALREADY translated everywhere on the page... My edit actually ADDED emphasis to Nakama where there was none a few minutes ago, and is none now that you've reverted it... did you just undo my edit on the principle of making sure I don't get to edit the page? Because as it stands, you just made the only instances of the word "Nakama" on the page LESS apparent than it was When I edited it..
 * I didn't "Go ahead and translate them", they were Already Translated before I even touched it. All my edit did was add the links...
 * Ok, can some of the more reasonable people chime in on this too? Maybe even some of the "Neutral" Voters? I think I'm onto something here.DemonRin 07:05, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * The compromise is reasonable as much as I can say. It helps non-Japanese speaking people understand what is being talked as well as give emphasis to Nakama. I stand by my claim as neutral as I am one of those fans who see Nakama as meaning something special, however feelings aside, it's just as effective as writing Nakama.Mugiwara Franky 07:29, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

I just want to add that I can remember from the beginning of the wikia we choose NOT to write it down, for various reasons I think covered and so translated it. This was done across the board with all the non-name Japanewe words with only "Marine" being left untouch because "Marine" implies "navy" anyway in the sense it can also be the French word for "Navy", plus also is a "english" word to begin with. Point is it became a "silent rule" as such... Which is why I don't think its written in any of our rules. Its one of the (now) few surviving things from wikipedia, and if you get rid of it, it opens the door to more things like that.

Now I'm not against Japanese being used for names, since 4****s dub aired, I've felt some Japanese is okay like Shichibukai, but there is a difference between the name of something and a causl every day word. Just as "Tom" is very different from being called "that boy". Honestly, EVERY instance of "Nakama" has words you can use instead, and using "Nakama" INCORRECTLY is as bad as using "fish" to describe a Dolphin, and if we use it too often, we risk using it incorrectly. In fact, the few cases you can actauly use the word where its suppose to overall, is referencing Nami at Arlong Park when Luffy calls to her and when the cast is talking about their crew between themselves. Using it ourselves outside of these incidents is when it invites the incorrect use of the word. And believe me, theres not a greater thing westen anime fans can do wrong in regards to using the language then using it when not needed... This is the invitation Japanese fans love to mock us over. In other words "nakama" is not a "catch all " word. ^_- One-Winged Hawk 11:31, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

I guess you can say that in some cases it doesn't work for everything, like with the Gaimon episode title. I'm going to try to revert the places where it matters, and leave it translated where it doesn't, and see if that satisfies everyone. The Pope 14:56, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

I'm against any of the episode titles having nakama removed from them. If you want to translate it in articles then fine. This wikia uses fansub titles. Changing that means you will have to start using Funimation/Viz titles. SeaTerror 17:37, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * The Pope, did you seriously just Edit the page to "See if that satisfies everyone" with your idea to try it out? After you reverted my edit when I did exactly the same thing because, in your own words, "Uh, no one else came to an agreement on this yet. The only one in favor of this is you"? If I'm not allowed to just add links where there were none before, and that's it. You most certainly aren't allowed to add Nakama in all the incidents but one or two? Because I'm pretty sure your edit only left the Gaimon episode Translated.


 * And Sea Terror, no. You're wrong. This wikia does not use Fansub titles as a general Rule. Fansub titles are usually copied, but when I asked why we weren't using the FUNi titles, I was told "What is the point to copy their translation and them change names and others and claim that this is our (is not their) translation?" and also "Demon Rin, maybe it would be best if you use your own translation when you see a mistake. Since you are fluent in Japanese, I think we can trust you on the result."
 * So I was told that the goal is to use Our Own Translations, and not to "copy" someone else's translation. Plus, there are several translations that are there now (which I assume are fansub translations) that are blatantly wrong. Episode 8 and 31 come to mind immediately. After this is all said and done, I planned on re-translating and revamping the whole page. I just didn't want to do anything because this Nakama situation broke out right after they told me to re-translate the titles myself, and Mugiwara Franky had locked the page. Even when it was unlocked, I would prefer to get this discussion finished before I move onto that, because I want the consensus on "Nakama" to factor into my revamp of the page.
 * Now, Mugiwara Franky seemed to like my "Translate it, and Add Links to the 'Nakama' page in the Romaji of the episode list" Idea. Can we get more people to chime in on that besides Pope and Sea Terror? One-Winged Hawk especially. If OWH is right and it was decided in the beginning of the Wiki to translate it, maybe we should use that as precedent and translate it? If the Neutral Mugiwara Franky liked my Idea of linking to Nakama, we could then do that to satisfy the people who think the word should be left untranslated and be done with this mess?DemonRin 21:44, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * (Regarding the "this wikia uses fansub titles" comment) This doesn't make sense since there are no universal episode titles within the fansub community. Yibis for example always translates nakama, so applying the "fansub titles" rule it would be equally valid to use their titles in the episode guide.Bji22 22:04, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * (Regarding the "this wikia uses fansub titles" comment) This doesn't make sense since there are no universal episode titles within the fansub community. Yibis for example always translates nakama, so applying the "fansub titles" rule it would be equally valid to use their titles in the episode guide.Bji22 22:04, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Whoever told you that was flat out wrong. If you looked at the history of all the episodes, the episode guide, and the manga articles you would see a lot of reverting to fansub/scanlation titles usually K-F's for anime and FrankyHouse/Binktopia for scanlations. SeaTerror 21:52, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Tipota told me. And he has about 15,066 contributions as of right now. I'm sorry, but I think it's safe to trust him over you.
 * The problem inherit with using fansub titles is that, it works for the early episodes because K-F did all of them, but they are only in the late 200s, so after that point, you get into the realm were there are about 4-5 different fansub groups who have worked on the series. Vegapunk, Nakama-Fansubs, Yibis, ACSF/UTSF. There is no consensus between them, the episodes they all done that overlap almost never match in translation, and they differ greatly in translation practice. Yibis translate "Shichibukai" to "Seven Warlords", "Yonkou" to "Four Emperors", they use "Navy", and they even translate "Nakama" on every instance, including "The Crew's Whereabouts" episodes. What's worse is they are currently the only group who are doing the most recent episodes. Meaning that, when the Marineford arc starts in the Anime, if the words "Kaigun", "Shichibukai" or "Yonkou" appear in any episode titles (which is extremely possible considering it's a War BETWEEN The Navy, the Shichibukai, and One of the Yonkou) you'd have to modify the fansub title ANYWAY in order to keep with this Wiki's standards on proper nouns. And then there's when episodes are announced early in Newtype Japan. Who translates that?! It's simply easier to use "Our Own" translations.DemonRin 22:13, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

I really hope you're not going to start saying "we should use Navy" too. The Pope 22:34, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Kindly stop attacking me and attack my arguments please. This is a One Piece Wikia, This isn't politics, an Ad hominem argument has no place here.
 * Also, for the record, the "Marines" page already owns up to the fact that "Marine" isn't an accurate translation down in the "Translation and Dub Issues" section. That, plus the fact that Oda flat out wrote "MARINE" all over everything leads me to believe the terms are interchangable in English, so I have absolutely no problem with the way that is portrayed.
 * However, you should go read the "Translation and Dub Issues" section of the Marines page. Just in case you don't already know that "Navy" is actually a more accurate translation of "Kaigun".
 * My only need to bring up "Navy" was to mention that we cannot just say "Use fansubs" and that's it because all the fansubs translate things differently. Most go with "Marines", this wiki goes with "Marines", but Yibis, the only group currently working on recent episodes, uses "Navy", "Warlords", and "Four Emperors", so there would be inconsistancies with episode titles unless we changed them. Which is against Sea Terror's argument of "We use fansub titles and they use 'Nakama' so we can't not use 'Nakama' because that would be changing them".DemonRin 22:43, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * "Navy" isn't happening while I'm around. "Marine" also means navy, so as someone pointed out... Its okay to use the word, just so long as its not being used "Japanese text" = Marine, because its incorrect. Plus theat WAS decided and writtnen earlier in the wikias history and "set in stone" as it were, unlike Nakama. One-Winged Hawk 22:52, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, Like I said, I am NOT arguing for the use of "Navy" Vs. "Marine". Like I said, the "Marine" page owns up to "Kaigun" really meaning "Navy", and Oda wrote "Marine" in English on everyone's uniforms, so I'm perfectly fine with how the Wiki treats that word. I only brought it up to rebut Sea Terror's argument that "We have to keep 'Nakama' so as not to change fansub titles". The Pope's attempt to bring that up was apparently an Ad hominem argument used to make my stance against "Nakama" seem ridiculous by making it seem as ridiculous as wanting to change all the "Marine"s to "Navy".DemonRin 01:27, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to go with "titles with 'Nakama' in are okay", thats part of a name. Though still lazy, I think its dubbers fault and we can't but only help use their titles... So that would be one of the rare cases it could go without cribs. And to be honest, its not worth fussing over a title. Its used in page articles I'm more worried about. And a foot note on a chapter page isn't one of the big things, its not like its on every page. Its everywhere else on the wikia... That is a problem... One-Winged Hawk 22:45, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * And for the courious, why isn't it worth cribbing over titles? Because their only vague at best of times. Damashii = usuall means 'spirit' but its not a fully accurate translation but its the best English can offer everyone. So theres the problem with tiutles. One-Winged Hawk 22:48, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Are you saying we should translate or not translate? I can't tell from your wording. My Idea, which Mugiwara Franky liked, is to translate all of the episode titles outright, translating "Nakama" to a proper English word, then making the word "Nakama" in the Romaji link to the Nakama page on this wiki, that way both viewpoints are expressed. It's translated accurately in the English title, while putting emphasis on the Japanese word in the Japanese title, so the reader can follow the link, read the page on "Nakama" and come to their OWN conclusion on what it means, free of us pushing our opinions on them. He said it looked good and sufficiently drew attention to the word without distracting from the actual episode title.
 * My Idea was to extend this to the actual articles too. Like this;
 * Luffy, rising from the collapsed building, shouts, at the top of his voice, "NAMI! YOU ARE MY FRIEND!"
 * Mugiwara Franky liked it, and I think it's a really god compromise.
 * Edit: Oh wait, by "cribbing" do you mean "stealing" fansub titles? I'm not vehemently against that notion, I was simply countering his argument that "We Have to use 'Nakama' because we use fansub titles and they use 'Nakama" so to not use 'Nakama' would be changing their titles" That argument doesn't work because there is no way to come to a consensus on WHICH fansubers to use, as well as the fact that Yibis translates some Proper nouns that this wiki does not, therefore we will have to "change" some of their titles anyway.DemonRin 22:56, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

I think we already discussed how Luffy and Arlong weren't discussing whose "friend" they were, and it was more about them fighting over whose "crew" she was on; they were battling over whose Nakama she was. I'm still against doing that.

Anyway, if anyone else has any other compromises, I would love to hear them, since this is obviously getting us nowhere. While I would much prefer to keep all of the titles as "nakama", I wouldn't be against translating the ones that protrude out as nonsensical. But if we're going to go with consistency, then I would prefer that they all say nakama than be translated.

I do suggest we come up with some other compromise fast, because it seems like no side is really bending towards the other, and the polls are pretty much 50:50. The Pope 04:33, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Also, not for nothin', but amongst the five most prominent editors on the site, one was neutral, one was for, and three are against. So...just throwing that one out there. The Pope 04:42, June 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * We don't need another compromise yet. You, Sea Terror, and Mugiwara Franky are the only ones who have chimed in on it, and He liked it.
 * Could everyone else please chime in on it? We need to get this settled. Also, Mugiwara Franky said that Majority wouldn't determine consensus, that the best argument would. How do we determine that?DemonRin 06:32, June 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * I actaully have no overall cribs, though I'd prefer it fully translated, I go with preferred overall vote. So if its whateveryone wants I'm not about to throw a fit and huff and puff over it, and I jsut get on with things.One-Winged Hawk 16:45, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

My compromise would be no for titles and ok on articles. Also most people don't even take Yibis seriously because of the Marine/Navy thing. If Oda wanted it to be Navy then every single uniform in the manga would say so. Also Yibis once translated san as dear. SeaTerror 17:07, June 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * One-Winged Hawk, My Idea IS to fully translate. The Idea is to fully translate everywhere, in the articles and in the Episode Guide, then in every instance where the people who want Nakama would prefer it be untranslated, we link to it like this. On episode titles, it would be fully translated in all English titles, and in the Romaji titles (the Japanese titles written in English characters) the word "Nakama" would be linked THERE to give them a little more emphasis. Mugiwara Franky said that was a good compromise, and there are more "For"s and "Neutral"s than "Against"s in the votes right now, and at least one of the Neutrals (Mugiwara Franky) Likes my Idea, so I wana know what more of the "For"s, and the other two "Against"s (other than Sea Terror and The Pope) think of it, because since Mugiwara Franky Likes it, I think we could easily go forward with it.DemonRin 22:52, June 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Based on some arguements, DemonRin's compromise has it's merits that I can agree upon. Though it's true that just because I, as a neutral, like it doesn't necessarily mean it has more weight to it, it kinda really does seem that DemonRin's compromise seems more credible in a way. I may not agree with some of her views on the word and how it is dealt by the various fansubs, however at the very least what she's offering seems to me as a compromise with both newcomers and fans in mind. It's really a fact that not everyone understands right away what Nakama means. That's my opinion at most.Mugiwara Franky 00:12, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

Should Bji22's vote even be taken serious though? The only 3 contributions they have made were in this debate. It's like they joined just to agree with DemonRin. Also before anybody says it, I would say the same exact thing if it was reversed. Also DemonRin why exactly are you only arguing against Nakama? You have not said anything about Haki which is another word that is left untranslated. SeaTerror 00:55, June 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah I'm sure you would. If you're going to pick and choose who's votes count then why have a poll in the first place? I'm a long time reader of the wikia that registered to input on the whole nakama debacle. Big deal. Anyway, I just think it has no special meaning whatsoever and should be translated, but hey that's just me. If K-F never had the infamous episode 38 note then this wouldn't even be an issue.Bji22 01:57, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

I'm okay with SeaTerror's idea, of leaving it untranslated in the episode titles but translating it occasionally within articles.

But...holy crap, he just brought up an amazing point.

Haki.

It's not a proper noun, attack name, or character name. It's just like Nakama; an individual word that we as a community feel should be left in Japanese.

Wow, that just opens up a whole other Pandora's box. Are we gonna start up a whole other conversation on that? Because DemonRin's been in favor of uniformity (i.e. only leaving proper nouns, etc. Japanese), and if we leave Haki untranslated, then by logical extension Nakama should be left untranslated as well.

Good job pulling that out, SeaTerror. I would've never though of that. The Pope 01:18, June 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Can you guys PLEASE stop pulling an Ad hominem argument on me? It makes your stance look weaker that you have to resort to a logical fallacy in order to try and discredit me and make me look dumb. Attack my argument about Nakama please, My preference for other things has nothing to do with Nakama. If you do that again, I'm gonna ask Mugiwara Franky or someone to step in and help me.
 * Like I said, my thoughts on other terms have nothing to do with my thoughts on Nakama. Also, back when "Ambition" (Haki) First came up in the manga, I had several arguments at Arlong Park about it, if you posted there back when this happened, TRUST ME you'll see me complain a lot. Then, after a lot of back and forth there they convinced me that, since "Ambition" is clearly being used to attack people and cause harm, and they're talking about Luffy's power with it, it's clearly being used to Name a power or attack. Just like "Mantra" or "Gomu Gomu no Pistol". It's the name of a power or attack, that's a proper noun. My PREFERENCE is to translate it, just as my Preference is to translate "Shichibukai" to "Seven Warlords", but the fact remains that "Shichibukai" and "Haki" are both Proper nouns. They are NAMING something, so they fit in with this Wiki's rules on proper nouns.
 * Re-watch Luffy Vs the Boa Sisters. Now, replace every instance of the word "Haki" with "Mantra". (even though I know the two are different things) The scene still makes sense because you're replacing one Proper noun with another. I mean seriously, Haki is clearly a proper noun, you guys claiming it isn't is like you're grasping at straws to make my argument look bad.DemonRin 01:31, June 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well then what about "okama"? There are lots of Japanese words that we simply don't translate because the original word itself signifies more than a translation can. The Pope 04:00, June 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * The fact that there's a NATION of "Okama's" and the fact that there's a place called the "Kamabakka" Kingdom and then that there's a fighting style named "Okama Kenpo", and the fact that there's a philosophy called "Okama Way" means that the word is used as a Proper noun.
 * Seriously, I know you're REALLY trying REALLY hard to make this Ad hominem argument work on me, but there's a reason they call it a "Logical Fallacy".
 * EVEN IF there were other Non-proper nouns in the Wiki that were left in Japanese, and EVEN IF I wanted to fight them, then I would make a discussion topic in THEIR section and we would discuss them then and there on their own merit. The fact that we're focusing on Nakama here says nothing about anything else and is speaking SPECIFICALLY About Nakama. So cut these "But what about THIS Word?! You're not fighting THIS word!!" arguments right now. If I see another non-proper noun used untranslated on the Wiki in the future, I'll fight it for the same reason I'm fighting to Translate Nakama right now. Only a moron wages multiple wars at once, not that there are any others to fight right now.DemonRin 04:21, June 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not calling you out asking why you aren't fighting about other words; I'm saying that other non-proper nouns are left untranslated, and for the sake of consistency Nakama should be the same. It seems like you're taking this way too defensively since you're constantly insisting that we're attacking you personally. The Pope 05:12, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

Gonna have to really defend DemonRin on this really apparent show of attacks. I really don't agree with some of her ideas but they are not what is being discussed. What is being discussed here is the word Nakama. Whatever gripe or idea anyone here has of how any other Japanese word found in the wikia should be really be separate from this discussion. They are really separate matters with their own problems.

Truthfully, I personally was hoping that there would be a good argument of sorts in defense of using Nakama as is since I'm one of those who see it having special meaning. This I was kinda hoping way back of my mind even though my conscience was saying that being neutral would be the most mature if not logical choice. However, the more I see where this discussion is going, the more it seems logical to lean more towards translation depite my feelings. I mean all I'm starting to see now is arguments against DemonRin rather than the word in focus.

It really seems like the focus of the two most prominent pro-Nakama are on arguments that are "She didn't contribute anything else", or "What about this other word". I'm sorry but it really seems that way. Though some coments like SeaTerror's question about whether taking Bji22's vote seriously are slightly justified, the rest however are at least not in focus on the word if not unjustified.Mugiwara Franky 05:18, June 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you Mugiwara Franky. Though personally, I would prefer it straight up translated everywhere and the untranslated term done away with, I no longer think that's the best course of action. I believe steadfast in my compromise idea as I've stated several times. I would like and hope to see it implemented as soon as whoever decides what "Consensus" is (I thought it might have been Mugiwara Franky) comes to the decision, if they decide my idea is sound that is.DemonRin 05:54, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

The point that I've been keeping is that "Nakama" translates to an abundance of terms so it is unsuitable to a single translation, a sentiment that most of the pro-Nakama voters stand with. However, if compromise must be met, I still stand with leaving Nakama in episode titles and translating it occasionally if need be within articles. The Pope 06:07, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

Also, Mugiwara Franky, the argument about other words came up in regards to the fact that DemonRin was stating that we should have consistency in our translated terms, yet some of us like SeaTerror pointed out that there are still plenty of non-proper nouns that remain untranslated.

And while you can argue that "Haki" is an elicit term because it is special in the world of One Piece, by the same token the word "Nakama" has a far greater influence within the series than usual; it's just as special as any other seemingly normal word like okama and the like.

But I'm getting off topic again. The Pope 06:17, June 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * You always insist on using terms like "An abundance" or "Hundreds" to refer to the different ways with which to translate "Nakama", seemingly to make it appear harder to translate than it really is, but I only count One or Two different ways to translate it that work. "Friend" and "Crewmate. Things like "Comrade" or "Mate" are just synonyms for "Friend" and "Crewmate" and if you count synonyms, then there is LITERALLY not a single word in any language, ever that translates properly into another Language. I mean, "Shounen" can be translated to "Boy", "Lad", "Young Man" etc. "Uso" can be translated as "Lie", "Fib", "Untruth", "Deceit", etc. "Tatakai" can be translated as "Fight", "Battle", or "Conflict". "Sake" can be translated as "Alcohol", "Booze", "Brew", "Liquor", etc.
 * A "Friend" and a "Mate" are the same thing. A "Crewmate" and a "Comrade" are the same thing. Anything you could translate "Nakama" as is just a Synonym for "Friend" or "Crewmate", so stop acting like there are SEVERAL ways to translate this word when there are only one or two.
 * And actually, "Friend" works in pretty much every circumstance in the entire episode list, I like "Crewmate" to be used sometimes for personal reasons, but "Friend" actually works everywhere without issue.
 * 018 - You Are a Special Animal! Gaimon and His Wonderful Friends
 * 043 - The End of the Fishman Empire! Nami is my Friend!
 * 102 - Ruins and Lost Ones! Vivi, Friends, and the Shape of a Country.
 * 104 - Luffy Vs. Vivi! A Tearful Oath Between Friends
 * 114 - Swear on your Friend's Dream! Battle at Molehill 4th Avenue
 * 234 - Rescuing a Friend! The Raid on Franky House
 * 252 - The Steam Whistle Seperates The Friends! The Sea Train Begins to Run
 * 256 - Rescue our Friends! The Vow that Brings Enemies Together
 * 273 - Everything to Protect My Friends! Gear Second: Start Up!
 * 278 - Say You Wanna Live! We Are Friends!
 * 281 - Tears that Weave the Bond Between Friends! Nami's World Map
 * 283 - All For my Friends' Sake! The Darkness Within Robin!
 * 377 - My Friends' Pain is My Pain. Zoro Fights Prepared to Die
 * 381 - A New Friend! - The Musician, "Humming Brook".
 * 384 - Brook's Hard Struggle! The Difficult Path to Becoming a True Friend!
 * 405 - Disappearing Friends - The Final Day of the Straw Hat Crew ("Crew" is written "Ichimi" here, it's not Nakama)
 * 409 - Hurry! Back To your Friends - Adventure on the Isle of Women.
 * 418+ - "The Friends' Whereabouts" (Every episode with "Nakama" in it from this point to present has the same part of the title with "Nakama" in it)
 * So I don't see an issue. I just translated them all using the exact same word, and that was your major argument against translating Nakama, I think.
 * And I never said "Haki" was an "elicit term because it is special in the world of One Piece". I never once said that. I said that "Haki" is the name of a power or attack that is used to knock out people. It falls under "Attack name" which is a proper noun. "Nakama" does not. I've already explained why "Okama" and "Haki" are proper nouns. So I fail to see a single Non-proper noun untranslated on this wikia, much less the "plenty" that you claim there are. But again, that's not entirely part of this debate, but if there were, then I would fight those too (at a later date, one thing at a time) DemonRin 06:39, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

Some of the older members who use to edit when I first came here would probably have debated this. ThePope was saying that Nakama has a special meaning in One Piece greater than Haki. Which is technically true. As I said translate in articles but keep titles untranslated. That would be the best compromise. SeaTerror 16:21, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

While some of those work, others don't ("Nami's my friend" doesn't fit in context with the situation with Arlong, "A New Friend" and "Becoming a True Friend" insinuate that Brook wasn't already their "friend" which he is, etc.). And I know I sound like a broken record, but Luffy willing to rescue Robin didn't just have to do with them being "friends"; it was more than that. The Pope 20:19, June 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * @ SeaTerror: The word "Haki" Vs. The Word "Nakama" is not an issue. "Haki" is the Name of a Power or Attack. That is the Definition of a Proper Noun Stop bringing up proper nouns this wiki leaves untranslated expecting that to prove anything.
 * @The Pope: "A New Friend" and "Becoming a True Friend" work because Brook was an aqquaintance on Thriller Bark at best. Now that he was on the ship, he was properly welcomed into the fold as their Friend.  And at that point, he was already a member of the crew, so "Becoming a True Nakama" makes the same insinuation, that he wasn't already a "real" part or the group,  It says "Shin no Nakama" in Japanese, so if you think "Nakama" has a deeper meaning, then it has the same meaning.  Insinuating that he isn't TRULY one of their friends yet.  It was a filler episodes though, Oda never had Brook feel like he wasn't a good enough friend to them.  The Anime made that up.  Reading too much into filler episodes and episode titles isn't a good Idea.  If we did that, then Zoro could always cut steel, and Chopper could always eat 2 rumble balls with no ill effect.


 * And SERIOUSLY, Nami is My Friend! Is the exact context it sounds like. That's what Luffy says when he busts out of Arlong Park. Also, Luffy rescued Robin because she was his Friend.  You only think it was something "More than that" because you believe that's what the word "Nakama" means and you don't seem to understand that the word "Friend" can have a deep meaning in English if it's used in the right context.  I have a group of friends, we've been friends since kindergarden, We're in our 20s now and are still together.  They are my friends.  I'm happy that they will be for the rest of my life.  It doesn't belittle our relationship or make them seem any less important to me that I call them my friends.  That word is important to me.  Because in English, that word Can have a deep meaning depending on who is using it and why.  Everyone who defends leaving Nakama untranslated says "It has a deeper meaning when Luffy uses it  that makes it deeper than it's dictionary definition".  Why can't the word "Friend" do the same for Luffy?  Both words are seemingly "Weak" by their dictionary definition.  In Japan, you would use "Nakama" to refer to your freaking coworkers, even the ones who hate you, because that's all the word means in Japan.  It's a word with no special meaning whatsoever.  Any special meaning that people read into it comes from the circumstances with which it is used in the series.  If you have Luffy use "Friend" exlcusively during all of those scenes like I just proved is easily possible, Why can't the special meaning in the circumstances show through THAT word?  The answer is that it DOES.  Any English speaker watching or reading this series has friends.  they have friends that they stick with through thick and thin.  Anyone can understand the notion of a deep friendship.  The Straw Hats' bond is apparent because of the things they do together, NOT the word used.DemonRin 23:41, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

The reason that "Nami is my friend" doesn't work is due to the debate between Arlong and Luffy: they both call her their "nakama". Arlong isn't calling her his "friend"; he's just stating that she's a part of his crew, and is his servant as such. Luffy is saying that being on his crew means much more than that; it means actually caring for her as a person. That's the crucial difference; at no point did Arlong ever say anything along the lines of "Nami is my friend". The Pope 00:13, June 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes he did. Wow, I think you completely missed the point of that scene.  Arlong was being condescending.  "She's a great asset to me.  I mean, she's my Friend.  SHAhahahahahah!"  I forget what the exact line was off the top of my head, but he said what he REALLY thought Nami was to him (he called her his asset, or his property or something) and then dialed back to try to sound like he wasn't forcing Nami into it, by saying she was his "Friend". he was making the claim just an episode or two earlier that he took care of Nami by giving her clothes and money.  He was trying to say "Yeah, we're friends" in a sarcastic condescending way.  Either way, the episode title was what LUFFY said, not what ARLONG said.  And Luffy is INDEED her friend, there is no two ways about it.DemonRin 00:26, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but The Pope, Sea Terror and I seem to just keep arguing in circles. Can someone else chime in? I still want to know what someone other than The Pope, Sea Terror and Mugiwara Franky think of my compromise Idea, I still greatly believe in it.DemonRin 00:35, June 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I stated my point of view in the vote section. I'm in favor of translating it, but to keep it in the 3 or 4 scenes where it has a strong emotional impact. In particular where the double meaning Friend-Crew is of particular importance. For the moment I would say, Nami and Arlong, Vivi farewell, Robin at Enies Lobby tower. Kdom 06:15, June 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * We're mostly talking about the episode list, and only one of those things is in there. What do you think of my compromise Idea?  It's to translate it everywhere but link the word "Friend" or "Crewmate" to this wikia's page for Nakama.  Like this:  "NAMI!  YOU ARE MY FRIEND!" And to translate every episode title outright, but make all of the "Nakama"s on the Romaji (Japanese titles written in English Charas) Like this:
 * You Are a Special Animal! Gaimon and His Wonderful Friends
 * Anta ga chinjū! Gaimon to kimyō na Nakama (あんたが珍獣！ガイモンと奇妙な仲間)
 * I really want more people's opinions to this, I think I'm onto something. Mugiwara Franky likes it too, he says it translates everything right and brings enough attention to the word.  I like this method better because it removed our opinions from the matter.  We are no longer shoving the word down their throat, but we're still presenting the word to them so that they can read about it.  It lets them come to their OWN conclusion as to the meaning of the word rather than leaving it untranslated like it's definitively special.DemonRin 07:29, June 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * You've made your case clear DemonRin saying the same thing over and over and over again won't make any difference! Please, just slow down and let things take their own course from now on; plain and simple. Get out of this loop in order to move on. MasterDeva 11:43, June 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * I keep trying to ask for other people's opinions on it, yet nobody but Mugiwara Franky, The Pope, and SeaTerror have chimed in on it yet. And not only do they HATE it, but every time I state it, they raise ire about something else and it gets buried in an argument.  I just want some of the OTHER people involved in the argument to see it and chime in on it before it gets buried again.DemonRin 13:23, June 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Things will get done Rin, however stuff like this can sometimes and do take time. Being a somewhat large scale matter, it's expected that it will take time and have alot of discussion. Considering the fan emotional attachment, it's not exactly a matter that can be solve right away. Based on comments by Kdom and Masterdeva, more people are indeed speaking on the matter somewhat.


 * Just cool down a bit, it's not something to be really irked about. At the very least, your arguments are rather strong and on topic. As for Buh's and SeaTerror's constant somewhat off topics about other words, yeah, there's a limit to how many times you can such things before it becomes tiresome. The same unfortunately goes for counterarguing in circles. So at least be at ease.Mugiwara Franky 13:50, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Votes
Okay, based on some comments, the poll is really not helping either side. For the purpose of making things clearer to some extent, I'm including the old style of voting into this discussion. It is a bit old but at least it's more formal and clearer to who wants want. The poll can still stay but it's a bit informal and can be too bias without reason at times.

Also note that while there can be a large number of votes on one side, it doesn't necessarily mean that decision has to be in favor for the greater number. A side can have a little number of votes but have strong arguments. The likewise can be stated also. A side can have a multitude of votes but have poor arguments.Mugiwara Franky 11:22, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Poll
Nakama or no Nakama? Nakama Translate it The Pope 14:21, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

Formal Votes
Against - Against translating Nakama, give reason and sign

For - For translating Nakama, give reason and sign

Neutral or other - For other reasons, state and sign

Neutral

 * Neutral - I am one of those who find that Nakama has some special meaning. However, certain situations do indeed require it to be translated for the benefit of others.Mugiwara Franky 11:26, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Neutral- It seems to me that the word Nakama has a wide range of potential uses. Even if it just means "friend" or "part of a group," it has a greater meaning than that in the story. Yes, it is being taken out of context, and there is a wide spectrum of what it could mean exactly, but it should be noted that it seems to mean an intimate friend or something like that in the story, even if it just means a regular friend or acquaintance in the real world. I agree with Mugiwara Franky and think it should be translated and kept the same where appropriate. I also think there should be some kind of note or disclaimer on the Nakama page, saying that the meaning of nakama in the manga is slightly skewed when compared to the actual meaning.DancePowderer 20:33, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Against

 * Against - To sum up the reasons I've given above, Nakama can not be translated out to a single word; it can't always mean "friend" and it can't always mean "crewmate", either. As such, it should be left as is, rather than try to find a hundred different ways to translate it given the situation. The Pope 15:54, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Against As reasons mentioned above and comments in the other section. SeaTerror 18:37, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Against - Nakama can be translated in many ways, some times as "friend", sometimes as "partner" or something. For One Piece, both translations seem to fit in, since it's more then just a "captain-crew" relation, and yet more then just a relation between people of a group. And it's like "Okama". It's a translateable term, still, we keep it as okama (not for the same reason as nakama though). So, even though it's not an usually untranslated term, we should keep it as Nakama. --GMTails 23:44, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Against - This word itself has more meaning than when translated. Also, if we translated this, we would be translating other terminologies, which may ruin the overall effects of the articles. By keeping it in Japanese, there is more of an effect, similar to attack techniques. Yatanogarasu 00:30, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Against - In general I agree with GMTails furthermore I love Manga, Anime, Hentai and every word listed here. Tipota 00:11, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

For

 * For - It needs to be translated to stop the spread of misinformation. Alternating between "Friend" and "Crewmate" works perfectly. It does not require "a hundred different ways to translate it". Mugiwara Franky even believes it should be translated sometimes. That defeats The Pope and Sea Terror's entire argument that "It has no one clear translation, so it should be left untranslated", because if we translate it sometimes, and then leave it Nakama sometimes, that's still two different words being used for the same term. ("Nakama" and "Crewmate" for example)DemonRin 19:45, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * For - Word simply does not mean "bond stronger than family." The crew's relationship is obvious to anyone who watches the series regardless of the language used. Since it is a common word and there are clear translations in friend/crewmate/comrade, nakama should not be left as is. I believe DemonRin made strong arguments based on logic and first hand knowledge of the Japanese language.Bji22 21:24, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * For - For the same reasons I stated before. MasterDeva 21:40, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * For- not only is it lazy but it brings up the age old problem of westerners using "random" Japanese words for no reasons. Just as I'm against "desu" and "Kawaii" being randomly used, likewise "Nakama". In EVERY instance you would use it proper English words are suitable to be used instead, rendering the need for the word completely. Also, "Crew" has more then one meaning in English ("me and my crew" = me and my group of friends/comrades/etc/etc/etc) so it replaceing "Nakama" is not entirely bad. Also, for someone new to the word, this potentially is confusing, if we use it often, itr means pretty much every page is going to need either a link to a page on the word or an explaination OF the word. One-Winged Hawk 11:06, June 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * For - I know "nakama" can have multiple meanings, but is it really that hard to translate it to the appropriate English word depending on the context? Also, like One-Winged Hawk said, leaving the word untranslated is kinda lazy.--KnightoftheSea 00:24, June 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * For (with exception). Based on the discussion, I think it should be translated. In some exceptionnal case where the double meaning Friend + Crewmember is particulary meaningful (Ex : Nami in Arlong Arc, Vivi farewell), it can be let untranslated to give it more impact. Kdom 17:32, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Halfway Compromise
Translate Nakama in certain cases like in Episode titles but leave as is like certain events such as Vivi's farewell.

DemonRin's Compromise
Translate Nakama to either crew or friend, but link words to Nakama. Also link Nakama being used in untranslated Japanese Titles.

Episode Compromise
Don't translate Nakama in episode titles but translate Nakama in articles but leave as is like certain events such as Vivi's farewell.

Discussion Part 2
Getting abit out especially since compromises can't be seen.Mugiwara Franky 13:57, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

I'm bringing another preposal to the table, once I did a topic discussing "the right to edit others" and I broke it up into sections (edit other messages on: talk pages, asrticles dicussions, forum, etc). Since Nakama has problems and no agreement can be made, I prepose different Scenarios be listed and we vote when Nakama should and shouldn't be used. On the one hand, it means Nakama may not be entirely wiped from the wikia, even if we want it wiped, but it does mean we get ideas on when and where the word should be used.

Example scanrios:


 * Chapter/episode title,
 * Chapter/episode page.
 * History sections
 * crew

This MIGHT be a better approach them flat out "Mr A and Mr B's idea", it may take longer to get finalizaed, but it also means a finer tweaking can be done. One-Winged Hawk 15:15, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

If you go through with translating, won't that make Kairoseki into Seastone, or Gomu Gomu no Mi into Gum Gum Fruit, or Santōryū into Three Sword Style, or Oni Giri into Demon Slash? Yatanogarasu 02:18, June 27, 2010 (UTC)