Forum:Fruit Diamond Jozu why do people say it is paramecia?

Why do people say it is a paramecia fruit?

I also read the wikia about it: http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Jozu

The arguments they use aren't very solid. They say he is not a logia type use mainly because:

1. He hasn't been seen producing diamonds outside the perimiter of his body.

2. His severed arm was not reformed in the funeral episode.

This arguments are not solid because we might not have seen everything yet. Oda might wanted to keep things secret and not reveal every move. Just like we didn't see anyone, besides luffy, using conquerers haki. To be honest we didn't see a lot of haki at all during the big war episodes. So other things, like jozu transforming things into diamond, might not have been shown so that it can be saved for other episodes.

Also aokiji in the movie didn't have his arm reformed all the time. Only when he went out the bath he reformed his arm and he did not reform his leg at all. He made an ice leg to replace it but it did not turn into a real leg. So either Jozu didn't reform his arm because he chose (yet) not to or maybe did not regained his strength yet to do so. Or in some cases or with some logias it is impossible to reform limbs when they are severed when someone uses haki or cuts it off (using other logia fruit or whatever) before the user had chance to transform it.

It sounds way more logic than it being a paramecia because then it would be first paramecia that allows user to transform his body into his fruit willingly. One of the main things that divides logia and paramecia is that paramecia can't transform their body: look at luffy he is permantely rubber! So Jozu should be diamond all the time.

I think it way more logic that this is a logia fruit that can't reform body parts or maybe not even transform other things into diamond or produce diamonds outside his body than that it is a paramecia fruit that lets user transform body parts and not permantly being a diamond. And like I said we don't know if Jozu indeed can't transform things into diamonds or that he can't reform his arm or even for that matter can't transform it because someone used haki. Aokiji probably can't reform his leg bcs of the super powerful fruit or haki of akainu?

Still even if we find out that he idd can't transform or produce diamonds outside his body perimiter I still think the fact that he can transform himself willingly makes him a logia user?

PS little question, how did jozu loose his arm and which episode do you see it happen?Superawfull (talk) 18:03, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

If you have questions about an article in particular you should use its talk page. Anyway, there is another argument in favour of the paramecia theory: turning the body in the element also allow the user to change shape, something that Jozu never shown. Beside, I can use all your arguments to say the Supa Supa no Mi is a logia fruit, which is not.

And there you are wrong :p

You can't use my arguments to say Supa Supa no Mi is a logia fruit. Because the body of Nr. 1 is made of steel the entire time. He can't change back to normall. You saw also in the fight against zoro that zoro couldn't cut anything at beginning. His entire body was iron without him having to turn it into iron first. So you didn't see Nr. 1 changing his body before zoro hit it and see steel appear on places on his body.

The only thing that he can do is transform parts of his body into blades. Blades aren't an 'element' so being able to transform those doesn't make it logia. He just uses his steel body to alter shape of his body and make blades just like luffy alters shape of his body with his rubber.

Even it was stated once: 'The user's body also has become completely steel in composition, similar to how the Gomu Gomu no Mi turns the user to rubber'.

I can see how you can debate things here, but I rather want someone to answer who knows about this topic and especially someone when he gives his opinion thinks better before dismissing someone elses opinion and arguments as false.Superawfull (talk) 21:49, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

what is this ? Mr.5 can turn his body into bomb anytime and he can return his body, Mr.5 isn't Logia. Logia users can control the elements outside from their body like Crocodile taking advantage in the desert, while Jozu can't use diamonds as he wish. Brain.Y.Z (talk) 22:02, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Kalifa, Galdino, and Magellan are all paramecia users in the same way Jozu is. Their bodies can't become bubbles, wax, and poison respectively, they can merely produce it and bend it to their will. Jozu's a paramecia, and this is now maybe the 3rd or 4th time we've been through this. Sorry to kill your fanboy dreams, but that's just the way things work. 22:13, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

@Brain

Well yeah but a bomb is not an 'element' like steel, rubber, sand or diamond. Secondly mr. 5 power is paramecia because he can not turn his entire body into a bomb. Only things that he disattaches from his body. Same with mr 3.

It was stated that what makes a logia a logia is that a logia can transform into an element and back. That is the main rule, the other rules like being able to change shape or manipulate surroundings are not final and not officialy confirmed as far as I know. And of course there is a grey area but because Jozu fits the main rule he is more logia than all the other examples that have been given. Superawfull (talk) 22:17, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

@ dance

And that where you are making mistake. You even contradict yourself:

galdino and kalifa are paracemecia just like mr 5. because they can only transform parts of their body. And Mangellan is paramecia because he is poison completely and can't turn back. Magellan can produce poison, can bend it as his will but he not logia because of the final rule: he is poison all the time. His body is entirely poison and it cant turn back.

Jozu can turn back and can turn at will.

Plz know your stuff before being so condescending. XD Saying mangellan can only transform parts of his body is just ridicilous. It even stated that he is completely poison just like luffy is completely rubber but that they are paramecia bcs they cant turn back.Superawfull (talk) 22:21, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

But thank you for reminding me of magellan. That strengthens my arguments even more in saying that the main rule between logia and paramecia is the ability to change at will. So also levethian, it not important that someone can change shape. Magellan could change shape and produce outside his body. But bcs he was always poision he is parameciaSuperawfull (talk) 22:25, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Jozu isn't logia because logia can't be solid.

/thread --My moral standing is lying down (talk) 22:26, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Aokiji. Anyway, Mr. 5 turned his arm into a bomb. Logias are able to reform their bodies when broken. Jozu does not fulfill this because he did not recover his arm after it was amputated. If he can't do what a basic logia can do, then guess what, he's not a logia. Your arguments are like your username. 22:28, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

What about Ice it is logia? Aokiji. So you wrong there. @mymoral

He could not turn his complete body. Only parts. Like mr 3. Therefore mr 5 is paramecia.

Well you just said aokiji is logia, we all agree on that! And even he couldn't reform leg back. Only could create ice replacement but not turn it back into flesh.

You should read my first comment, I completely annihilate the assumption that Jozu is paramecia bcs he cann not reform arm. (i will give 1 of the possible arguments: if someone uses haki when cutting of a limb. It cannot be reformed back)

Secondly it is more likely that Jozu is an exception in that he cannot reform back his arm then the exception that he is the only paramecia to break the golden rule: change willingly into elements.Superawfull (talk) 22:33, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

He doesn't transform, he encases himself. 22:39, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Interesting theory. But that is not known. So we can't say before that if he is paramecia or logia. Also it looks more like transforming and he can't be frozen when he is fully diamond. If it was just encasement he would have frozen easily bcs diamond conducts heat super fast. But bcs he is fully diamond he cannot be frozen. Only when he wasn't completely diamond, aokiji was able to freeze him. Superawfull (talk) 22:47, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Jozu isn't a logia because he can't reassemble his body. My moral standing is lying down (talk) 23:01, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

I'd have to agree that it would seem more logical to me if Jozu was classified as a logia user. The main argument against it seems to be him not being able to regenerate lims or reassemble his body, but as stated above, Aokiji (definitely a logia user) couldn't regenerate his limb either. In other words, Jozu might be able to reassemble his body, but he could have lost his arm in a similar way Aokiji lost his leg, preventing him from reassembling it. We just don't have the information.

It could be that Jozu is a paramecia, and that Oda is just leaving out information about Jozu. But with the information we have now, it seems folly to just assume he is a paramecia rather than logia.Dice4 (talk) 23:15, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

We thought he was a logia user at first, because in the original manga he was seen at Whitebeard's gravesite with his arm attached. However, in the volumes (where errors in the manga are corrected, ex Zoro's bounty poster), his arm is not attached. 23:19, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

@DancePowder

Can you explain how his arm not being attached proves with definity that Jozu is a paramecia? By that logic, Aokiji who is missing one leg is also a paramecia user.Dice4 (talk) 23:35, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

If Oda wanted him to be a Logia, why not reattach the arm? Keep in mind, this is before Rayleigh's big haki explanation. The way I see it, we're supposed to think about it based on what we knew at the time, not what we know now. 08:21, August 12, 2013 (UTC)

@dance

Still think at this point it is more likely to think that he is logia. Of course we cannot be certain and he could be paramecia. But from the information we have now it is more likely that he is a logia. Especially like I stated he fits logia according to the main rule that divides paramecia and logia (transfer willingly into element, things luffy, Mr 1 and Mangellan can't) and because the exceptions that are now applying to him are less severe when you consider him a logia user.

But like I said we cannot be sure. It is speculation but I just want to state that on the wikia of Joze we cannot say he is paramecia and use the arguments they use there. They are very weak arguments at best and it just speculation. And for now it is more logical that he is Logia user, so you should state that he might be Logia or even better that we don't know yet.

And as for the matter that we should think and reason on the knowledge we had at the time, is certainly not oda's style. Oda thinks ahead and thinks thing through very well. He is known to use certain aspects and introduce them while explaining them or using them to the fullest way later in the story.

Especially when it comes to haki, we have seen it very early in the anime and only recently we come to grasp it.

So i have to agree with dice on this matter.Superawfull (talk) 12:23, August 12, 2013 (UTC)

What I believe happened to Aokiji's leg is that it had been burnt off by Haki, which destroyed the flesh and bone in that area, making him unable to create a 'regrow' his limb with his Logia power. That could have happened to Jozu as well.

EDIT: Woops, you've already mentioned this theory in the your first post (I was too lazy to read it all! xD). Anyways, I agree with your theory. Jozu isn't permanently diamond, which points to him being a Logia user. Or, he could be a unique Paramecia user.

Because normally, their bodies would turn into their respective elements when attacked, except when they're attacked with haki, making their physical bodies receive the impact. Also, I'm pretty sure Oda wouldn't 'waste' a great element such as diamond by making it a paremecia fruit. 12:43, August 12, 2013 (UTC)

If Jozu was logia he would replace his missing arm with a diamond one just like Aokiji did with his leg. Since he can't produce the substance it is a paramecia fruit. Deal with it.Vazelos3 (talk) 13:13, August 12, 2013 (UTC)

@vazelos

Go out of ur narrow mindedness and keep the possibility open that it could be either.

Who says he cannot still replace his arm with diamond or has to regain strength to even completely get new arm? Even aokiji did not have his leg on the whole time.

You deal with the fact that there is one major big difference between paramecia and logia:

Paramecia cannot change back to normall logia can. It is way more logical that Jozu is a logia that might not be able to produce diamonds outside of the perimiter of his body than him being a paramecia that can change into element and back and in doing so defies the main rules that seperates paramecia and logia. Creating more confussion, blurred lines and grey areas. So please deal with the fact that you are narrow minded and that you cannot dimiss either possibility!Superawfull (talk) 13:32, August 12, 2013 (UTC)

First, it is not cool to make personal refferances, this is a forum after all and anyone can say what they want. Second, who said that Jozu turned into a substance? It is clear to me that just the skin covering his body turned into diamond. Kinda like a shell. You can see the shape of his body underneath, even the color of his clothes. Third what do you mean logias can't turn back to normal????? finally, this isn't fairy tail where someone needs to regain strength to use their powers, people here can use their abilities even when unconcious. Vazelos3 (talk) 13:45, August 12, 2013 (UTC)

@vazelos

Hey then don't be so narrow minded and don't say deal with it ;)

It your own fault that I am condescending to lets just say not so smart people like you. This is indeed a forum, where you discuss opinions, but your opinion is an assumption as well but you shutting of the conversation with falacies. Also you say deal with it. It is too stupid for words to try and win a discussion by forcing your opinion on others and not being open to other opinions. I am the whole time only explaining my thoughts and not forcing them upon others nor don't I keept he possibility open that it is an paramecia. But I just think it is not likely. So if you just don't use falacies and keep the conversation open and be open to new ideas I will respect you more aswell.

Now on to your points:

1. We don't know yet if it is a substance or encasement. It is speculating. With all logias you can see shape of their body and also sometimes see their clothes. Look at Ace when he is on fire and look at aokiji when he was against luffy.

2.  The encasement is a possibility but to me it not likely, because when Jozu used his diamond protection he was not effected by the ice of aokiji. If it was only a shell, Jozu would have been frozen instantly because diamond is one of the best heat/cold conductors. Even better than copper. But because also inner side transformed he could not be frozen (diamond can't be frozen). Later when Jozu didn't pay attention and did not transform fully into diamond he could be frozen. So the encasment/ shell idea does hold up to this information we saw. Of course it could still be an encasement and there was another explanation or just mistake by oda. But till we have more info we should keep our minds open.

3. I never said Logias can't turn back to normall?! I said paramecia can't but logia can, that is the main rule that seperates them. Next time please read better and pay attention.

4. In One Piece people need to regain strength and energize. Look at luffy, he cannot use gear second all the time. He needs rest and food. And there are many examples that when someone is KO they transform back. Not only logia users turn back to normall also paramecia type when they are KO or don't have enought power/energy will not be able to loose their power. Look at Film Z, everyone changed back to normall age when the girl got unconscious. And Moria after being defeated couldn't unconsciously keep shadows under his will.Superawfull (talk) 14:05, August 12, 2013 (UTC)

"You can't use my arguments to say Supa Supa no Mi is a logia fruit. Because the body of Nr. 1 is made of steel the entire time. He can't change back to normall." - how can you say Jozu's body is not always diamond? If you say "because you cannot see the diamonds" then even in mr.1 you don't see the steel/blades. Jozu's fruits looks the same as Supa Supa no Mi to me.

@levethian

well because 1 you see big difference between when he goes diamond. Why get more diamond when he already diamond? With mr1. he was always iron the only thing he did was make knifes with his iron body and bcs they were sharp and to higlight that they showed it.

The extra diamond would not have any purpose. So they would not have shown it.

2. if he was diamond all the time, he would not have been able to be frozen by aokiji. Diamond can't be frozen. It would be as solid as before the attack of aokiji so no reason for him not to be able to move after the attack of aokiji. There for we can dismiss the idea of him being permantetly diamond. (the idea of not being able to be frozen is not weird, look at whitebeard).

For me the only 2 possibilies are the encasement theory or him being a logia user.Superawfull (talk) 14:20, August 12, 2013 (UTC)

"Diamond can't be frozen" - if that's the case, then why being a logia makes it freezable? If you say because haki, then haki would work in both cases. If you say "he didn't have the time to change", well as Whitebeard was frozen and THEN produced some vibrations which broke the ice, Jozu can change in to diamond to escape from the ice. The unofficial reason to "why getting more diamonds" is "because it's cool", while the official one it's probably "to enhance his attacks". Luffy is rubber, but only when he stretches you can tell. Anyway the fact that no logia typical behaviour was shown it's pretty much the only reason why we should consider it paramecia: saying it's logia would be speculation, saying it's paramecia is plausible.

@ levithian

Please read better. I explained. If it is paramecia it would not be able to freeze because he permanently diamond. Diamond can't be frozen. If he is logia he can be frozen because then indeed he wouldnt have the time to change. Which you clearly saw in the anime.

Whitebeard was frozen indeed but it is logical that he could still produce small vibration before going KO, therefore could save himself. Just like in last seconds before going brain dead enel could revive himself with shocks. The vibrations are a direct counter to the ice. Also because it is a paramecia (whitebeards power) his organs permanently vibrate hence his inside weren't frozen (but that is just a theory). Because paramecia is permanent he could make vibrations while frozen but diamond is logia therefore he could not change when frozen. He was captured in his normall state. Also diamond is not a direct counter to ice, vibrations are.

More diamonds wouldn't enhance an attack, diamonds are already the second strongest substance in One Piece so it would not help. Also why don't you see luffy producing more rubber on his body or see him get more rubber like looks when he attacks. You don't see that even when he attacks. Just like you didn't see that with Mr 1. The only thing you saw were the blades he formed with his body, but not extra iron for a punch or to protect himself.

Now you contradicting yourself. The main logia typical behaviour was shown: He can willingly transform. DAMN XD that is even stated officially that, that is the main typical behaviour. There was no sign that it was only a shell nor that he was permanantly diamond (because there were lots of examples that saw him being vulnerable when not being in diamond form. Look at the epidoes again) so it is more plausible for him to be logia. And it is speculation that it is a paramecia. And even if it was paramecia than your statement would still be false. Because like people here said it is way more assumable then when he is a paramecia he is a special kind that can make a shell of diamond and not being diamond himself.Superawfull (talk) 15:25, August 12, 2013 (UTC)

As I said the whole "he didn't have time" to change doesn't make sense, are you saying that Akainu, if frozen "in time", cannot melt the ice? It's also questionable the whole "diamond" cannot be frozen, even in diamond state I believe he can be frozen, it's something commonly shown in mangas (metals, rocks, ecc... frozen which magically break easily), it's just depends on how Oda thinks will happen. Also Whitebeard is not a "vibration", he simply can produce vibrations, so same thing. You are forgetting something too: all experienced logia users can transform by reflex, so even the fact that he seemed more vulnerable when not in diamond state doesn't make sense. I believe the basis of this whole discussion is speculation, since the physics in One Piece depends on how Oda thinks it works, so we cannot really say "he would be/would be not frozen if". There were already physics contradiction in One Piece in the past in my opinion. Logia fruit users when they change in the element can also assume weird shapes or let pass things through is body, something Jozu didn't show: that was instead clearly shown every time a logia user was introduced. (and since the Yami Yami is an exception, the probability this is also an exception are pretty low).

P.S.: just as curiosity, diamons is usually presented as the "strongest element", but it's in fact rather fragile, if you hit in the right direction it easily breaks. This has nothing to do with our discussion though.

Well like I said diamond is not direct counter to aokiji so in his transformed state he would be able to whistand it but when he already frozen and not transformed he cannot do anything because diamond is not a direct counter. That seems logic to me. Akainu and whitebeard can still react because their powers are direct counters. Just like luffy was counter to Enel. And akainu to ace.

Well there are examples of experienced logia users that were caught of guard. And you see very clearly that Jozu is distracted right at that moment. Since Oda is someone who is known to have thought things through and has a purpose for everything (rarely doing things for esthetics) there is big chance that it was a hint to explain why he could be frozen there. If he was paramecia then he would be diamond all the time and there was no reason for Oda to use the suprise/distract moment for Jozu to be frozen. Because if he is paramecia and can be frozen, aokiji didn't need the suprise effect but since aokiji needed the suprise moment for him to freeze Jozu it means that something is different between Jozu in fight and Jozu while not paying attention; him being transformed or not.

And well as I feel it, there is not really 'a deus ex machine' nor oda abusing laws of physics. I feel like we have a good area estebalished by oda where you know which physics rules apply and which are manipulated or broken. There aren't many moments where I thought this is against the laws of physics and also doesn't fit the unspoken laws of physics in one piece.

Well I do think Jozu can be an exception, just because if he would be a paramecia he would be an even more exception. And why can't there be like a grey area. A fruit that fits both? Even in todays world our taxanomy rules aren't well enough and some species fit in more arranged boxes.

And who said we have seen everything of Jozu? Maybe he can transform things into diamond? And well it does fit diamond that it can't change shape. Logia is still bound to the element it reperesents, like aokiji, akainu and especially blackbeard are very different from smoker and ace.

About the diamond thing. It is the strongest natural element (well i did hear that maybe they discovered 2 other natural components that are stronger and ofc they have stronger artificial materials), it not fragile at all. What you mean is, is those lines that if you hit them you get smaller diamonds. Well first of all i do believe you can still only break it with very hard materials even on those lines (i did think that was only possible with harder manmade materials or other diamonds) and secondly the lines represent the line between 2 or more fragments of diamonds. In 1 single fragment there are no lines as far as i know. So like it just a big clumped up stack of many diamonds and ofc between them the bond is not very strong, but in a single diamond the bond is very strong and there are no such lines? Maybe in some natural mades ones there could be weaker points but that is bcs of the impurity and the unevines of the pressure that was on the diamond.Superawfull (talk) 14:14, August 13, 2013 (UTC)