Template talk:Char Box

What we have
As seen in Pandaman and other articles, the infobox code works. So to make our articles look better, I thinking of applying it to the characters. However to make it work properly and so, I need comments on what to put in. Some current categories can be used or optional however some might not be necessary or may cause problems so I really need some comments. Here is what we currently have.


 * Japanese Name:
 * Romanized Name:
 * English Name:
 * Current occupation:
 * Epithet:
 * Origins:
 * Age:
 * Birthday:
 * Height:
 * Affiliations:
 * Japanese VA:
 * English VA:
 * First Appearance:
 * Last Appearance:
 * Rivals:
 * Confirmed Relatives:
 * Dream:
 * Fighting Style:
 * Devil Fruit:
 * Meaning:
 * English Name:
 * Type:
 * Effect:
 * Bounty:

If a category in the following is not needed or such by the general community. Please put a slash on it with .Mugiwara Franky 04:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, "Rivals", "Confirmed Relatives" and "Dream" are probably not too useful for many characters, so I'd say no to those ones... Plus they're just not that useful in an info box, I'd think. For Devil Fruit... well, since many characters don't have one, it might be best if they were done with a separate thing or something? I know on Wikipedia there's a separate Devil Fruit box, that might work well. For bounties, maybe we could do the same thing, or have two different character boxes or something, since many characters don't have bounties... "Age", "Birthday" and "Height" will also be difficult for most characters, they might be best left off/optional/something, since it seems silly to have entire sections for only a small amount of characters... Um... I can't think of any other problems, though, but I'll keep thinking about it. ^^ --Murasaki 05:21, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Except in Pandaman's case the info box is only short. The other characters in the series have much more info and it looks odd. We had that discussion right back at the beginning... Its a problem that haunts us even now it seems. Maybe if you shrink the text + cut down whats going in it... I mean some info could be moved to the "trivia" sections. One-Winged Hawk 08:33, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah some things need to be cut down but which ones is kinda the discussion here. Anyway, I've been trying some tests in Test Page. There you can see two different infoboxes. One with an epithet and one without.Mugiwara Franky 06:32, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * That one is okay I guess. The epithet and not epithet look the same... This sounds stupid,but I don't know so I'm asking - whats the difference in having one or not. One-Winged Hawk 08:49, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it's kinda the same but it's an example of a variable that one character may have and another may not have. Anyway, it's work in progress. By the way, I've modified the code been so the text and box are smaller. Check again the test page.Mugiwara Franky 13:11, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Explanations
This is an infobox that could be used for the characters. For most of the empty spots like image it works like basic templates. Simply type "image=" and what you want to put in it. Others like epithet are more complex. To make them work, you need to call up the template for the epithet by typing "epithet= " and writing the value/s for the epithet. This is because some characters may not have a nickname and some may not. This also works for bounty and devil fruit sections. The "extra1" and "extra2" sections are there so you can put in templates that contain infobox categories unique to a certain character. For instance, take the main CP9 agents. The majority of them have "Douriki" and "Key no" values. A template can be created for those values and used in the "extra1" section. This can be used for them. One can also notice that some of them have "Age" and "Birthday" values. Another template can be created with those values and used in the "extra2" section. With this, you get CP9 infoboxes with Douriki and Key no. values and some containing also the Age and birthday values.

The picture is apparently the crucial part of the infobox. If it is too big or one inputs a large value for it's size, the infobox becomes too large.Mugiwara Franky 05:52, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay there are some explanations on this template page and such so it can further explain how this works. It isn't finished but I hope this gives an idea on how it works.Mugiwara Franky 13:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Latest Appearance/Last Appearance
Okay this kinda concerns the ships as well but this may need to be addressed. Do really need a category that lists when the character was last seen. It's okay with the manga but the anime and other forms of media maybe troublesome. I mean in the anime, despite being filler and non canon, we saw Miss Monday walking and talking alive in a recent special. This may confuse some people, I think.Mugiwara Franky 04:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

So...
Instead of one simple char box we have several? Okay. Fine with me how about everyone else? Seriously... Being the only one to express opinions on such matters is getting lonely. T_T' One-Winged Hawk 23:07, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * You were the only one expressing your opinion because I was waiting for him to have it all set up first, not because I don't care. XD;;
 * It looks great to me, it fits all the criteria I have for it. ^^ --Murasaki 04:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

So we can use this, right?Mugiwara Franky 23:22, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd like to. ^^ --Murasaki 02:19, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, the box is now currently being used in Brook and Eneru. They kinda don't take up much space. All I can say is as long as the image size is right, the article is long enough, and the instructions on how to use it are read well, it's okay I guess. Other than that, it's good. Any other comment.Mugiwara Franky 13:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

bit characters
Do you have one for the minor characters... With:


 * J/R/E name
 * first
 * occupation
 * Location
 * J/E VAs

on it (give or take one or two of those)? I want to do the minor characters but most are citizens and they have no real info to supply them. I'd like them to only appear if filled in. One-Winged Hawk 21:51, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Umm, you can do something like this for them I guess. This is as simple as it can get.Mugiwara Franky 07:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Its okay I realised that a day later after I asked that when I did Nojiko's page. I have another request. Separate "4Kids" and "FUNimation" VA options. The reason for this is simply because if FUNimation goes back and redoes the eps from beginning you'll have a situation.


 * Some of the SHs had two VAs (past self and current) so multiply that but possibly 2 more for FUNi and you get 4 VAs for the english dub section. Plus you have to add a little bracket to say 4Kids or FUNi... And well... You begin to get a complex mess. One-Winged Hawk 08:17, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Here I guess.Mugiwara Franky 12:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The template is called Template:Char box eva 2. Place this instead of the other one.Mugiwara Franky 12:42, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thats great! That will make life easier when we find out the VAs for FUNimation. Thanks MF! One-Winged Hawk 12:56, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Request
I know it seems like an odd request... But can we move the occupation a little. Would it be possible to add another section to the template:


 * 1) J.Roger of crew/flag (Marine/country/etc
 * 2) Afilation
 * 3) ccupation
 * 4) Bounty


 * I don't get what you mean. Are you suggesting another image be placed in the infobox?Mugiwara Franky 02:17, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Request.
I'm from another wikia, the Fairy Tail one (although I do the occasional content edit here), and I'm trying to make it more organised and spruce it up, for a lack of a better term. I've been reading about and trying to understand how to make my own templates from Wikipedia from scratch but I'm having difficulty understanding some of it. Anyway, to the point: I was wondering if I could use the template format you guys use as a foundation so I can understand it and personalise it for the FT wikia? I'll give credit if credit is due, and I'm going to use it, but I'll take it down if you guys want. To be honest, I'm not even sure if I actually have to ask, but, yeah, I'm new. Thanks. Dalyup! 13:49, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Your welcome to use it for the FT wikia as long as you give credit.Mugiwara Franky 14:02, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I will on the template's page. Dalyup! 14:54, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Infobox appearance
What I dislike in this infobox: things like 4kids English VA where few words are divided into 2 strings. I made a little wider and added fixed width to the first column. You can see the results in my sandbox. Imho, it looks better. What do you think, is it OK to change this template? Ruxax 10:14, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Manga and Anime
Now that we finally successfully implement the Toggle function (thanks again for those who helped), one can experiment a lot of new possibilities. In particular the use of several images at one place.

So since I know that there are people like myself and GMTails, who would like, sometime, to keep some manga images, or to avoid some edit wars like the one for Hancock char picture. I propose that we modify the template in order to add two pictures, one from the manga and one from the anime. Below an example of what it could give (click on one of the 2 links to switch between the 2 pictures). Kdom 20:15, August 8, 2010 (UTC)

anime |manga

That's a good idea, maybe we could even use this to images in articles, incluiding char picture. It would be a lot better and original, since I never saw a Wikia doing this. Wich way should images be? Only anime or only manga Both manga and anime Another way A poll here will help us to see how many agree or not. GMTails 20:38, August 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * I support such pictures in char boxes. Ruxax 15:07, August 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Alot of potential here.Mugiwara Franky 15:47, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Yes I think so too, that's why I insisted a little for having it... That can be used for the 4kid edits, the anime vs manga etc... There is also such behaviour which can be interesting to perform. Kdom 15:57, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

But I want to note that it is highly desirable for two images to have equal height (or at least nearly equal), otherwise moving up-down rest of the page could be rather annoying. Ruxax 16:15, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

here are some examples of what it would give. I think it is ok even if the pics are not completely of the same size, as soon as you do not constantly switch between the two. The only thing is that in Luffy case anime link refers to a game image Kdom 20:02, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

A bug, or maybe a feature, of your, Kdom, code, is that any anime/manga toggler will change all pictures. (See above, Luffy and Whitebeard). Ruxax 23:56, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * it is because they are associated with the same class but in theory there will be only one char box per page. Kdom 05:21, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

anime |manga

Yes indeed, the toggle above with Whitebeard and Luffy both change due to similar toggle parameters.Mugiwara Franky 07:11, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

Are you guys planning to use togglable pictures outside char boxes? Ruxax 10:04, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

Well wherever one assume it is useful. With such a code you could have 2 versions of the Arc pages, one with the anime pictures and one with the manga ones and switch from one to the other by clicking on a link.

Also below is another interesting version that does not use external link. You switch between the images just by clicking on it. Also it seems the div applies to all the page width but it may be different in a table. Kdom 19:01, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

 


 * You just need to specify width of div: Some disadvantage is that one can't go to the file's page. Ruxax 19:22, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes I know but it is already the case for the gallery portraits templates.
 * Is it ok to implement the first solution ? What type of legend/toggle name do you suggests.
 * I also think we could start sort of polls to decide which manga images one can choose for the Strawhat and others main characters Kdom 19:30, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

I think that, aside from characters with alternate color schemes or outfits, like Wiper or the main crew, this is stupid; why would you need the manga image as well as the anime image? In more cases than not they'll be identical. The only case where an alternative image should be used is when it's required, such as alternate outfits or a color scheme that was changed in the anime. The Pope 16:39, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * For some characters that have the same type of outfit with matching colors or just have one known colorscheme, having the toggle feature I guess maybe too much. However, for situations wherein there isn't a proper anime pic, like a character is too distorted in the anime, using the toggle feature maybe of some help.Mugiwara Franky 16:49, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree. However, the other solution in that particular scenario could be to find a more suitable anime picture. However, if there is absolutely no good anime picture to use, then I guess the toggle feature would work.


 * Though I'm not saying it's a lost cause, not at all. For characters that alter in their color schemes, or change their outfit all the time, it could work out great. What we need is a way to alter the character box template so that instead of saying "anime" and "manga" by default, it could say whatever we want per each scenario. Like, say, for Nami's page; we could have a link saying "Original outfit", "Water 7 outfit", "Thriller Bark outfit", etc. Would that be possible? If so, that'd be great. The Pope 16:52, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Determining whether the picture should have an anime or manga version would be a nightmare. If you want to switch between different outfits, having a manga/anime option that would toggle the options to toggle outfits. Bastian964 17:04, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * What do you mean it would "be a nightmare"? Up until now, the consensus was to stick with the anime version, since it was just essentially a colored version of the manga version. The only dispute was with alterations between manga and anime colorings. The toggle works for that, and I'm fine with that. What's not needed is a black and white picture when we already have a perfectly fine anime picture, or a colorized manga picture with the same color scheme.


 * As for "just using anime/manga for different outfits", that works fine up until the point that a character has more than two outfits. If we're going to use this for that, then we need to be more open-ended with it. The Pope 17:08, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not interested in the different outfits of the characters. I find that pretty pointless whereas I'm interested in the difference of material that are the animation and the manga. Also, I made this because of the edit war that appeared during the last episodes. Everyone wanted to modify the commanders manga picture with awful blurry ones. Now everyone will be satisfied. The same wrt Hancock picture edit war between the black and white and the anime pictures. There are a lot of us who prefer the manga version of some scenes and this toggle feature allows to please everybody. Kdom 17:13, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

For different outfits there are galleries. Having togglers for each outfit (Nami has a LOT of them) is not good idea. Most contents of the page should be visible without additional actions (clicks, etc). Manga pics in char boxes are some additional feature for those prefer manga pics to anime ones, as I understand it. How do the additional manga pics hinder you, The Pope, eventually? Ruxax 17:20, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * First of all, the thing with Izou was just a matter of getting a high enough quality version of the image. And if that was impossible, then it should've stuck with the manga image until the next episode came out with a better image. As for people who for some reason prefer the black and white images, the wiki has always gone with color images, so there's no reason to bow to these other people now. And for the Hancock one, the reason there was a debate was due to the fact that the image was from Impel Down and not Amazon Lily, not due to it being from the manga or the anime. Unless there's color differences or whatnot, there's really no reason, nor has their ever been, to have both the manga and anime images.


 * Though to be honest, if we did go with the alternate images things for different situations like outfits, it would be nice to have male/female alternate images of Inazuma and Ivankov.


 * But I guess Ruxax has a point with there being overload. But as for why I'm bothered with alternate images, if we don't need them, then they're pointless. I am all for alternate images for characters whose color schemes change from manga to anime, but if they're going to look exactly the same, or just be in black and white, then why the hell does it need to be there? So "people who prefer the manga can click on it"? They'd still have to click on the "manga" image. It's pointless. The Pope 17:23, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * They are not necessary for you, but they are necessary for others. Ruxax 17:39, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * We used anime image because we could only used one image per char box. Now, thanks to Tipota and Ruxax efforts, we can have two and I think it is a lot better. Saying that the anime and manga version are the same is not right at all. They are two completely different supports. Plus the manga is the real work of Oda not the anime, so I think having the manga version is more a tribute to his job than the anime only.
 * Concerning Inazuma, I think Mugiwara has made some test wrt the male/female. I'm pretty sure you can use a toggle inside the image parameters. That could be indeed a good idea. Kdom 17:56, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I still stand by my original opinion. For some characters having alternate images would be a good thing, but for most it's unnecessary. The Pope 18:08, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

!Well then, since the anime version is the default one and the other picture is not visible to you unless you click on the link, I suppose you can let have it for those who cares. Kdom 18:40, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

The image in the character info voice is there for a general and recongisable character profile, heck it doesn't even NEED to show the most up to date version of the character. This was always the intention, whats written on image guidelines and thus renders this whole argument pointless... It doesn't matter if you use a manga or anime image, so long as it makes a good quick indenication to the reader they've got the right character its fine and there is no need for a retweak of templates. honestly, your making more work for everyone doing that. plus, most images within the manga are actually too poor to put in the info box. if we must use the anime for the best image? Fine, I prefer colour Vs black and white for that anyway. ^_-

Honestly,you guys talk a lot here about new ideas, but you haven't looked at the guidelines. THATS the final say on the kind of image needed for that and a tweak of that page would also have to happen if this ideea went ahead anyway. One-Winged Hawk 19:59, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah before anyone asks, I'm a bit p---ed that I wrote a guideline no one even bothers to read half the time, thank you. I'm not going to stop you guys discussing this, but can you take note in future some things DO exist for a reason. We can deal with image wars over which Hancock image should stay... And other things... But you know, the guidelines are suppose to set a standard for the site, so you have to take notice of them, even in debates for templates like this one. If you don't, you annoy users who put hard work into them to make sure this wikia has a standard set for editors to stop it falling apart.
 * For instance, I had to purdge some trivia sections just recently because my trivia guidelines got ignored as well. One-Winged Hawk 20:12, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * And finally, I noticed on some pages this has appeared, yet the discussion hasn't finished. You shouldn't do a major tweak like that until all discussions are finished. If someone like me comes in and questions the reasons for it, you could have to undo it all. As disappointing as it was, failures have happened here. Heck, even our site admin MF hasn't stepped in to show some of the concerns I'm expressing here... Which still shocks me, this much discussion and action happened before all aspects were looked at, heck the vote isn't even finished from what I can tell. One-Winged Hawk 20:45, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

The discussion was started one week ago and no one disagree that's why I started to implement it. I still don't see how having the choice between two pictures is against the guidelines. Also this toggle method is something that was implement last week I don't see how you could have think about it when you wrote your guidelines 4 years ago. I'm one of the ones who constantly have to revert the edition to satisfy the guidelines as they are now. I have made a huge effort so that people keep the same version of the images, don't put random names, and purge the site of the 100th of duplicates that were on it, so I don't think I deserve your comments. This new method will save me a lot of effort and talking. And, again, I've read a lot of time some editors saying that they prefered the manga images over the anime ones and this is an easy method to satisfy everibody. Kdom 21:05, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * @One-Winged Hawk: The discussion very much was finished until Buh decided today that he didn't like it and went around reverting all of it and generally making a nuisance of himself. Bastian964 21:08, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Only like four of you guys discussed it. If you were going to do something big like this, then you need to go to the other major users' talk pages, leave a note to direct them to the conversation, and then have them talk so you can have a real consensus, not a few guys saying that they like it and immediately going for it. I've learned the hard way that if you try to make a big change without informing the rest of the community first, then there'll be backlash, like there was with this and me and One-Winged Hawk.

Speaking of which, I don't know why you said I "wouldn't like what you say", One-Winged Hawk; personally, I'm against this, and it seems like you are too, so there'd be no discrepancies between us. The Pope 21:44, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * I advised, Tipota, Ruxax, Mugiwara Franky, GMTails and Yazzydream which seems to me representative of the community in particular wrt images. Even now you are still the only one who is against. Kdom 22:00, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

I think that the toggle system is only to be used in infoboxes when absolutely necessary. Because, we usually desire an anime (more colored, better graphics), as it gives a much better representation than the manga. If wanted, the manga pic can go in the "Appearance" section. The extreme case to use the toggle system is differences between anime and manga. An example (and only an example!!!): In the manga, Kaidou wears one of those religious-looking hats, but in the anime, due to potential offense to that religion, the hat has been replaced by some other normal looking hat. Yatanogarasu 22:04, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * The problem is that a lot of people desire the manga images since it is Oda's original work so the toggle system allows both to be satisfied. @Buh: So you are saying we should have expected your psuedo-vandalism spree. Bastian964 22:22, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * and I still don't understand the anime better than manga argument. We don't delete the anime picture it is even the default one. It's just that there is another version corresponding to the manga. Don't you have pleasure to read the chapter every week with black and white pictures ? I do
 * and the differences between manga and anime shall go the dedicated section
 * Kdom 22:31, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

For black and white pics, I guess they have some appeal as stated. However, they also do indeed have a downside. The whole no color thing kinda does generally make them feel lesser in quality to colorized anime pics to most. Its kinda because a black and white pic doesn't usually show a character in more detail as to a colored pic. It's kinda the truth since we live in colored world.

Maybe it would be best to use black and white pics only where it is truly needed. Like the case of the Whitebeard commanders. When characters like them show up in color, it really seems that alot of people really want to put pics of them regardless of quality. If an anime version of a character really must be shown due to stuff like color, but doesn't show the character well, a black and white manga may need to be supplemented to support the anime pic. However when there is a colored anime pic that shows the character well, the black and white manga pic alongside it maybe a bit superfluous.

For anime being better than manga or vice versa, the medium shouldn't really be a point. There are some manga pics, especially colored ones, that show characters better than the anime. Likewise, there are also some anime pics that show characters better than the manga. The main focus kinda should be choosing the right pic that shows the character very well. Manga pics shouldn't really take over precedence over anime pics. Anime pics as well shouldn't really take over precedence over manga pics. What should take precedence is the depiction of the character.

For different clothes, that indeed maybe going to far. The code for two pics is somewhat complicated enough, at least for me. Adding more variables maybe really hard especially to newcomers.

For the discussion itself, I guess I have to agree that it may have needed more time and talk from other users before the changes were implemented. One week from what I know, is not exactly an adequate amount of time since some users can't be in the wikia every single day. This especially applies to major decisions. Informing certain users of this discussion was wise, however asking a wider and varied selection of users may have been wiser. Just cause certain users handle certain parts of the wikia doesn't mean they won't mind changes in areas they are not handling. The wikia's kinda for everyone.Mugiwara Franky 02:30, August 14, 2010 (UTC)