Talk:Devil Fruit

Edit War
There seems to be an edit war going on in this page between the number of devil fruits and confirmed users. I think we should resolve this by having a discussion instead of reverting and undoing edits all the time. 06:32, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

The number of "unconfirmed users" is uncertain. --Klobis (talk) 07:39, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

No, it is not. 08:41, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Laffitte's really the only questionable one, unless he was confirmed in a databook that I missed. The others have either been directly stated to be fruit users or the ability is so errant that it couldn't be anything but. Just don't count Laffitte, unless he has been confirmed, in which case do. 08:53, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

It is valid information so it should remain in the article. SeaTerror (talk) 08:57, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Laffitte is not the only one. And there will be more. That section is needed. 08:59, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

It's only the count, not the section for unconfirmed users. And I'm saying we should just not count the questionable ones, Laffitte being the only one at this time. 09:03, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Doflamingo? 09:12, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Definitely not. SeaTerror (talk) 16:31, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

The number of edit wars are getting too damn high! Guys can we resolve this through a peaceful discussion instead of undoing and reverting. It's getting annoying... Klobis was telling me that she undid her edit, because 12+2+3 = 16, something like that. Staw-Hat, maybe you could explain why you reverted the edit, because she'll just undo it again and your revert would be useless. Seriously, this is ridiculous and it's getting annoying. I have been observing these edit wars lately, and I've realized that edit wars aren't getting resolved, because some users who participate in edit wars never give their reasoning for undoing or reverting an edit in the "Edit Summary". So it would be inevitable if a user sees another user undoing an edit without any given reason. I was thinking that maybe an admin should implement a rule stating that all users should give an "Edit Summary" before they hit the "Publish" button. This can avoid edit wars and conflicts. Just an idea. 11:07, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

This issue hasn't been resolve at all. Another edit war has started. I think we should have a poll. 08:17, July 10, 2013 (UTC)

Bump. 04:18, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

This still needs to be added back. Klobis was just trolling the article. SeaTerror (talk) 03:54, August 19, 2013 (UTC)

What is the "valid information" you keep talking about? The table had six canon and two non-canon "unconfirmed users", but it's not clear who any of them are referring to. From what I can tell you just keep adding it back for the sake of edit warring. I'd be on your side if you could fully account for every number in the table. 04:02, August 19, 2013 (UTC)

Nui Nui no Mi
Klobis, if nobody said it's name, why does this page exist? 13:30, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

It is a fan fiction. --Klobis (talk) 13:35, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Then why do we have the page? 13:37, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Everyone can create random pages as one likes. --Klobis (talk) 13:41, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Wut. 13:44, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

in chapter 711 leo says he used the power of the Nui Nui, its obviously a devil fruit-- 17:07, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Your comment is obviously speculation. SeaTerror (talk) 18:16, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

If it is speculation, then Klobis is right. We should redirect that page to the "Ability" section on Leo's page. 05:37, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Nui Nui Powers=Nui Nui no Mi. 07:44, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

The "Nui Nui Powers" most likely refers to a Devil Frui. However, right now we have no evidence to support this. 07:48, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

lets have a poll weather the page should stay to stop this but obviously that is a devil fruit it is not speculation what other thing could it be? 08:48, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

It is speculation, since the chapter never stated that it was a Devil Fruit ability. And this wiki is an Encyclopedia, we must provide accurate information with supporting evidence. 08:53, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

It's not speculations. He clearly said it's a devil fruit. 11:44, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

No, it says "Nui NuiMagic". 11:48, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Kin'emon didn't say he ate a devil fruit either. He said cursed or magic fruit if I remember correctly, so why does he have a section with devil fruit?

Also, I have a problem with unconfirmed devil fruit types that aren't zoan nor logia, why are we just assuming they are paramecia? We don't know if Oda will make up more types as he goes.

There are many evidence that Kin'emon possesses a DF ability, unlike Leo which was mad unclear. For instance, Kin'emon he ate a fruit while Leo was said to have "magic". Also, Kin'emon was shown unable to swim in water, which further proves that he is a DF user. However, there is still a lack of evidence that supports Leo being a DF user. He most probably is, however, I don't think it's right to include him as a DF user until things are made clear. 13:40, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

It's still speculation to say Kin'emon has a Devil Fruit, no matter how similar the bi-effects are.

Leo never said it was magic. Stop referring to the worst scanlation site on this earth. He said Nui Nui Power.

Whether he said Nui Nui Magic or Nui Nui Power, it doesn't make much of a difference if there is not enough evidence to support him having a DF ability. What I'm trying to say is to just wait till we get more evidence. We don't have enough evidence at the moment, so as for now this is all just speculation. 13:49, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Onigumo, Dalmatian, Chicheetah etc were never confirmed to possess a devil fruit and yet we consider them devil fruit users. 14:51, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Kin'emon said he ate some weird fruit (so not speculation) and we've seen the three users Staw mentioned actually transform. Those seem like confirmations to me unless someone wants to argue they're all some unique race of transformutants or something. 18:37, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

no complaints here but i think the nui nui should also be noted as a devil fruit-- 18:41, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Unlike Kin'emon, the dwarf never mentioned eating a devil fruit nor has he been shown to have the inability to swim. So right now there's lack of evidence. 04:18, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

Even tho I'm absolutely agreeing with this wikia's policy to fight strictly the speculations, I think there is a thin red line between that and what you are asking here. I agree, there is not an official confirmation that Leo ate a Devil fruit, but all of us know that he did. Why do we know it? Because it is the only thing that explains his ability and make sense. It is a biggest speculation to state that his ability is not coming from a Devil Fruit. If somebody deletes Nui Nui no Mi from wikia, no matter who he is, he would actually know that he deletes something that really exists just because he can't prove its existence. With that policy we will start deleting a lot of things that actually exist in one piece universe. K the AWC (talk) 19:32, August 19, 2013 (UTC)

They said Nui Nui no Chikara because they didnt DFs. Of course, it's a devil fruit and it can be named Nui Nui no Mi.--Salamancc (talk) 22:28, August 19, 2013 (UTC)

Look heres what happened the Nui-Nui is a stitch stitch fruit and Ki`emon ate a devil fruit that is yet to be named they call the sorcery or magic because they don't understand the devil fruits like when those who eat devil fruits are called demons and freaks.Rockfur5 (talk) 04:02, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Unnamed Fruits
I was gonna edit it this out but it turns out I can't so I figured I'd mention Jora's devil fruit is now named, in case someone who can edit this page wants to fix it. Reeves92 (talk) 20:38, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

I know one devil fruit yet to be named is Lafittes devil fruit which I'm guessing will be named tweet tweet fruit dove model considering his white wings.Rockfur5 (talk) 04:04, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Color Schemes
I've noticed that the more current Devil Fruits are no longer following the "unique" color codes, but instead based back onto affiliations. Such as the two insects of Tontatta Kingdom, some Donquixote Pirates, and maybe Caesar's. Can someone start generating some unique codes for each of those? 06:04, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

Why is that "unique" colors necessary? Who decides the colors? Usually Ability do not have colors. --Klobis (talk) 07:20, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

I thought it was the Forum:Devil Fruit Colorschemes and whatnot. Apparently, fruits are different in terms of affiliation, as Ace's death leads to a new user, and new affiliation. 08:26, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

Fruits should be unique colors. Devil Fruits aren't exclusive to the groups they're in, so having the same color is a bit uncreative, in my opinion. Although it is a good idea to take inspiration from the affiliation to give the colors, like Gomu Gomu no Mi's colors being Luffy's shirt. This is good. So I guess we should start from the top. What colors need to be changed? 19:09, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

So far I see:
 * Ope Ope no Mi 17:34, November 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Woshu Woshu no Mi Montblanc Noland (talk) 18:48, November 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Fuwa Fuwa no Mi 17:34, November 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Mato Mato no Mi 17:34, November 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Buki Buki no Mi 07:15, November 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Guru Guru no Mi 07:17, November 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Bari Bari no Mi
 * Nui Nui no Mi
 * Giro Giro no Mi 17:45, November 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Jake Jake no Mi
 * Ato Ato no Mi
 * Ami Ami no Mi 17:34, November 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Modo Modo no Mi 17:34, November 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Mosa Mosa no Mi 17:34, November 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sara Sara no Mi, Model: Axolotl 17:34, November 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Mushi Mushi no Mi, Model: Kabutomushi last one :D
 * Mushi Mushi no Mi, Model: Suzumebachi 02:58, November 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Inu Inu no Mi, Model: Bake-danuki 17:34, November 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Batto Batto no Mi 17:45, November 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Artificial Devil Fruit
 * Numa Numa no Mi 17:45, November 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Gasu Gasu no Mi 17:34, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

Don't know if I missed any. These are the newer ones. 04:48, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Adding Batto Batto no Mi. 22:49, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

Bump. 04:43, November 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd say we can use a colorscheme that "represents a fruit the most"(Like Black/grey for Yami,Gold for Goro and Bright yellow for Pika)..dunno 'bout DFs that dont've a representative color to it..any way the DT can take care of it.--

Sounds good, and please do cross out any of the fruits listed above that has been rectified of their scheme. 07:15, November 10, 2013 (UTC)

Vazelos you forgot to change the colorschemes on the Devil Fruit User's page too. K the AWC (talk) 13:40, November 11, 2013 (UTC)

Also Woshu Woshu no Mi has a wrong colorscheme in Tsuru's page K the AWC (talk) 13:44, November 11, 2013 (UTC)

Devil fruits are supposed to have a unique colorscheme, different than the one the user has, which is supposed to be that of his respective affiliation. And what is wrong with Tsuru's?

Got what you mean. Done now. And removed active sign since all have been taken care of.

Thanks. Cheers! 01:31, November 12, 2013 (UTC)

Unnamed Devil Fruit
Is it possible that they were talking about Miss Merry Christmas here? Many former Baroque Works agents were in Impel Down after all. Amourning (talk) 00:55, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * The unnamed Devil Fruit eaten by an unknown prisoner from Impel Down. It gave this person the ability to tunnel, and was used to create the secret floor between Level 5 and Level 6 of Impel Down, Level 5.5

Apart from the fact that Level 5.5 was made a long time ago, Miss Merry Christmas did not go to Impel Down. She escaped the Marines. 01:01, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

How the hell is Machvise's fruit unnamed? The guy literally yells "ton ton" everytime he flies. Is someone suggesting that for the very first time EVER a fruit user yells the same word twice while performing techniques, but it isn't the name of the fruit? I understand the concept of "waiting until everything is confirmed", but listing him as a fruit user and refusing to name it is plain stupidity. It'd be better to leave him out completely until everything is figured out, because him being an user is just as unconfirmed as the fruit's name. In simple words, an attentious reader knows he is a fruit user and knows it to be the Ton Ton no Mi, but so far neither the name or being a user were confirmed. If it can be presumed that he is a fruit user, then we should presume the obvious name also. If it's facts were working with, then he isn't confirmed as a fruit user yet.

Just to add up: It still has to be said, but the hole in Impel Down was dug by Blackbeard's pirate and ID former lvl6 prisioner Avalo Pizarro. The guy has freakin' drills on his hand ad was introduced a little bit after the newkama land incident. Let's use our brains, people. Please...

177.142.179.161 23:09, May 23, 2014 (UTC)

It's unnamed because we don't have an official name for it. We do have Law saying that Machvise is a super heavy man, which confirmed for the first time that he is a DF user, but we don't put speculation in articles.

Pizarro has only been shown in any detail in the anime. Find me a picture of him with drills on his hands and I'll add it to his page, but speculating that he dug the prison level is never going to make it.

23:34, May 23, 2014 (UTC)

Edit: About
In the article it is stated that "nearly every single major opponent that Luffy has faced had an ability, while in the East Blue he only faced two (not including Alvida, who ate her Devil Fruit later)." But as she is already seen in Loguetown (which is in the East Blue) as a devil fruit user, this statement seems to be false if not at least misleading. 83.93.45.243 00:06, September 19, 2014 (UTC)OldManRiver

"Nearly every". It doesn't say every. SeaTerror (talk) 18:34, September 17, 2014 (UTC)

I think you are missing the point SeaTerror. 83.93.45.243 00:06, September 19, 2014 (UTC)OldManRiver

She didn't have the ability when they fought in Chapter 2. That's the important part. 18:37, September 17, 2014 (UTC)

That's a rather subjective statement to make isn't it. 83.93.45.243 00:06, September 19, 2014 (UTC)OldManRiver

No, Zodiaque is exactly right. She didn't have an ability when Luffy fought her and the second time they meet she doesn't fight him. 01:31, September 19, 2014 (UTC)

How do they bathe?
Last time I heard it had to be seawater, but I also knew the bit about having to be knee-deep (or so). Regardless a bathtub would be both of those. I think the Thousand Sunny has a shower, but most bathrooms in the OP world are shown as having bath tubs. Kalifa is even in the damn tub when Nami comes in, and is able to get out of the tub without begging Nami for help.192.152.24.115 10:17, August 28, 2015 (UTC)MFBK

Translations
Sorry for bringing this up again, but it has kinda been bothering me. Isn't Gomu Gomu, Soru Soru, Kame Kame, Gol Gol, etc. all in katakana? I don't think this has been brought up from what I've seen, but there wouldn't be a problem translating "no Mi" to "Fruit" since these are in katakana. We don't translate the katakana so I don't see a problem anymore. Example, we don't translate "niki" in Choniki to "Chobro" or an equivalent. Most likely the English versions translate them is for the English audience to understand it when they're reading (though I think there could be a way around it), but any who, Gomu Gomu is in katakana so i think we should translate "no Mi" and we even translate Akuma no Mi to Devil Fruit Meshack (talk) 02:41, April 1, 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't know if this is an in-joke, but if they all have official translations, then it is up to consensus.--Sandwichman2449 (talk) 03:19, April 2, 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't want Gomu Gomu to be translated but the "no Mi". Gomu Gomu is in katakana for there's no need to translate but no Mi should be. Instead of Gomu Gomu no Mi, it would be Gomu Gomu Fruit. Not too shire about the techniques but instead of Gomu Gomu no Pistol, it would be Gomu Gomu Pistol Meshack (talk) 20:08, April 21, 2017 (UTC)


 * Do any translations, official or otherwise, ever translate just half of the fruit name?--Sandwichman2449 (talk) 21:22, April 21, 2017 (UTC)


 * Again, Gomu Gomu is not in kanji so there's no need to translate it because it's in katakana and you don't really translate katakana. "no Mi" means fruit so just translate it. Calling them Devil Fruits but don't have Fruit in the name doesn't show a correlation Meshack (talk) 05:24, April 22, 2017 (UTC)

The idea of translating only half of the phrase does not appeal to me at all. There's nothing wrong with everything staying in Japanese, it's been like this since 2006, everyone knows what 'no mi' is by now. 16:20, April 23, 2017 (UTC)

It's got to be all of nothing, I'm with AoD on this. We already have it very clear on each DF page that no Mi translates to Fruit, so we don't need to add anything.

16:27, April 23, 2017 (UTC)

Agreeing with what AoD said. 18:49, April 24, 2017 (UTC)

I agree with just using "Fruit". 23:29, April 24, 2017 (UTC)

If we translate it to the "Fruit", then we'd have to do the entire name (i.e. Gum-Gum Fruit instead of Gomu Gomu Fruit). Since half-translation is essentially fandom naming. No official source uses "Gomu Gomu Fruit"; just like how Mangastream translated Katakuri's name. 23:58, April 24, 2017 (UTC)

A lot of the fruits would have translation issues, due to being onomatopoetic. For instance, if we go by onomatopoeia, Sabo's fruit would be the "Crackle Crackle Fruit" since "Mera" is the Japanese onomatopoeia for the sound of a crackling fire. It's a case of adaptive interpretation versus direct translation. There's also the issue of linguistic consistency if we only change "no mi" to "fruit." 02:12, April 25, 2017 (UTC)

No, I mean we'd be using VIZ/FUNimation translations, otherwise we'd be calling it "Rubber Rubber Fruit". But yeah, inconsistency is an issue: we'd be going "Kuroashi Style", "Santo Style", etc. 01:27, April 25, 2017 (UTC)

But "Gomu Gomu" is in katakana ゴムゴム so why would there be a need to translate it? Only "no Mi" would need to be translated since it's not in katakana. Meshack (talk) 03:19, April 25, 2017 (UTC)

But if we do translate the "no Mi" and leave the katakana part intact, it'd be like speaking the first half of a sentence in Japanese, and the second half in English. Like Bender said: "it's like Christina Aguilera singing in Spanish". 03:56, April 25, 2017 (UTC)

Not everything needs to be an English word. We use Yonko and Shichibukai but those aren't in katakana Meshack (talk) 04:09, April 25, 2017 (UTC)

In that case, "no Mi" should remain as it is, to make the entire name Japanese, like "Yonko" or "Shichibukai". It's not a matter of "everything", it's consistency. We use "Black Leg Style" for English, and "Santoryu" for Japanese, but they are all fully devoted to either Japanese or English, no mixture. 07:13, April 25, 2017 (UTC)

Then we should change Devil Fruit to "Akuma no Mi". There's no correlation between Devil Fruit and Gomu Gomu no Mi. If you want consistency among the Devil Fruits, not a variety of terms, no Mi should be changed to Fruit, Gomu Gomu Fruit Meshack (talk) 13:33, April 25, 2017 (UTC)

I am against it. I understand the katakana argument, but I feel like it would cause problems. 17:28, April 26, 2017 (UTC)

Like what? Meshack (talk) 17:37, April 26, 2017 (UTC)

Well, the can of worms you see before you, for starters. It's the reason the decision was made way back when to keep the fruits untranslated. It's translation, consistency, and aesthetic issues all rolled into one. 18:48, April 26, 2017 (UTC)

We translate the Kingdom and Island but not the katakana in kingdom and island names. Basically same thing here. 19:01, April 26, 2017 (UTC)

I know, right. Gomu Gomu Fruit is no different than Germa Kingdom in the Japanese sense. If you're gonna call them Devil Fruits, the Fruits need to be called Fruits and not a no Mi. It's more consistent than Devil Fruit and Gomu Gomu no Mi. Otherwise, keep Gomu Gomu no Mi and call them Akuma no Mi rather than Devil Fruits. Meshack (talk) 19:07, April 26, 2017 (UTC)

Like I said before, the English names won't be as easy to do as you think due to a conflict between adaptive and direct translations. See my example of the Crackle Crackle Fruit. 22:38, April 26, 2017 (UTC)

Meshack wants half-English names. There is a debate to be had about translating the fruit names into English. This is not that debate. This is a debate about translating the non-katakana half of the fruit name, because consistency.--Sandwichman2449 (talk) 23:39, April 26, 2017 (UTC)

The problem here is leaving only half the phrase translated and the other half not, so bringing Akuma no Mi here does not make much sense, since the entire thing is translated.

Germa can't be translated, so I don't have any idea why that was brought up. In fact, all of our island and kingdom names are translated, and those that aren't are left alone because it would lose its meaning when translated (since most are puns, like Nanimonai Island). Secondly, it's the name of the island/kingdom, it doesn't HAVE to be translated, it's the name.

This is a different case. We are talking about translating no Mi into Fruit. But I want to ask, what real advantage would that bring upon the wiki? DP has already shown that keeping no Mi in the name is more consistent in our way of doing than translating it, so that can't be it. Everyone knows what no Mi is by now, it's translated in the infobox on every DF. There's really no problem here, and translating would just make a translation abomination by having hybrid terms. 12:18, April 27, 2017 (UTC)

There would be no need to translate since Gomu Gomu or Mera Mera or Mochi Mochi is in katakana. We don't translate katakana here so why would there need to be with the Akuma no Mi? If we're translating katakana now, translate Choniki Meshack (talk) 13:26, April 27, 2017 (UTC)

I'm fine as things are, but I just wanted to say there is also the option to drop the "no Mi"/"fruit" entirely from the page name. For example, instead of "Gomu Gomu no Mi" we would move the page to "Gomu Gomu". Nothing else would change on the page itself.

I think that's better than Gomu Gomu no Mi since saying no Mi is kinda weebish Meshack (talk) 14:21, April 27, 2017 (UTC)

Sounding weebish isn't an argument. The article is about the fruit as much as the power, so we can't drop no Mi. And we can't be selective. If one gets translated, they all get translated. Otherwise we'd be left with a huge mess of inconsistency to justify and work around in every article that mentions a devil fruit, and that is not something that can be handled easily by a bot, either. Would I like to see the fruits translated? Kinda, yeah. Is it plausible at this point in time? Hell to the no. 18:42, April 27, 2017 (UTC)

"The article is about the fruit as much as the power, so we can't drop no Mi." - it's not like "Gomu Gomu" is the name of the power... it's the name of the fruit. It's like saying "King Neptune". It's fine either way, but it's just a style choice in the end.

I still don't see the problem with having Gomu Gomu Fruit. Gomu Gomu is in katakana so there's no need to translate it. It's like other things on the wiki. We. Don't. Translate. Katakana. No Mi is something that needs to be translated. No Mi means fruit. We're not calling them Akuma no Mi instead Devil Fruits so we should have consistency and have the Devil Fruits be called Fruits and not no Mi. Meshack (talk) 05:04, April 28, 2017 (UTC)

It's like other things on the wiki. We. Don't. Translate. Half. The. Phrase. Bringing Akuma no Mi into the discussion doesn't change that. But I can get behind Levi's saying that in the end, it's just a style choice. 11:52, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

We start translating half a phrase, soon there'll be people wanting the full phrase because half the phrase doesn't make sense to them. This is how we do it here, this is how we've done it for a long time. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

12:06, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

Can we have a poll? Meshack (talk) 14:35, April 29, 2017 (UTC)

I still support "Fruit", so you might as well poll. 12:10, April 30, 2017 (UTC)

Comment - if I could vote, I'd say leave it as is. The pages have been using the original Japanese names essentially since they were started and it's always worked just fine; I see no reason to change it now. (Or in other words, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it.") (Until next time... Anon e Mouse Jr.) Anon e Mouse Jr. (talk) 14:06, May 13, 2017 (UTC)

Poll Discussion
Any changes/objections to the poll please state below. 11:06, May 13, 2017 (UTC)

What about dropping the "no Mi"/"fruit" part altogether? Isn't that an option?

A good point. The options should be Blah Blah no Mi, Blah Blah, English Fruit, English no Mi, and I suppose in the name of fairness I have to suggest just English. (Luffy, who ate the power of the Rubber Rubber, is a...)

11:55, May 13, 2017 (UTC)

I didn't include those because there wasn't much genuine support coming out of the discussion above. There's not much point in adding every option possible imo when the discussion suggests no one will vote for them. 12:11, May 13, 2017 (UTC)

Yeah I'd say these options are good. 12:12, May 13, 2017 (UTC)

Hey! Why are people voting not to translate? Meshack (talk) 17:03, May 16, 2017 (UTC)


 * It's called freedom of choice.


 * 17:29, May 16, 2017 (UTC)

Will someone explain to me their reasoning for not choosing translating over not. The decision is not that different translating islands like Kuraigana Island. We might as well keep it Kuraigana To Meshack (talk) 17:53, May 22, 2017 (UTC)

That's why I suggested to drop the "no mi" altogether, we actually can drop the nouns from the title in general, like "islands" too.

Meshack, people don't have to explain themselves. They're choosing to vote for an option. We've all had our chance to talk it out - we're voting now.

20:57, May 22, 2017 (UTC)

You don't have to but why? On a wiki, you have to communicate your thoughts in order to be understood Meshack (talk) 11:38, May 23, 2017 (UTC)

We have communicated. We are now voting. People have made their decisions. I don't see what you find complicated about this, and I'm no longer going to discuss it.

16:32, May 23, 2017 (UTC)

The arguments for both sides were made in the main discussion. If no arguments were given to keep the no Mi we wouldn't be having this poll. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 18:58, May 23, 2017 (UTC)

Eating the owners
So, as of chapter 868, is it safe to confirm that it really is possible to gain a DF by eating its previous owner? 'Cause, to be fair, I don't think Oda ever actually denied that. If you pay close attention to his exact words (or at least the translated version) in the SBS, he doesn't outright deny it. Timjer (talk) 09:43, June 8, 2017 (UTC)

It's not confirmed that Big Mom ate Carmel though. Oda has misled us in the past. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 09:46, June 8, 2017 (UTC)

It is also possible that Linlin bit Carmel head off (literally), and one of the fruit that was (presumably) on the table was changed, and then Linlin ate the fruit with the table. It's a very long stretch of a speculation, but also far less disturbing. Rhavkin (talk) 09:50, June 8, 2017 (UTC)

Were there even fruits on the table? I thought it was only a mountain of Semla. Regardless, you have to admit it's pretty suspicious that Big Mom used Carmel's DF powers very shortly after the event. Timjer (talk) 09:54, June 8, 2017 (UTC)

It's not like we got a clear view of the table, and besides, it is just a tiny theory to make the story less disturbing (after cannibalism). Rhavkin (talk) 10:03, June 8, 2017 (UTC)

Gas Gas and Bis Bis
I'd like to propose renaming the Gasu Gasu no Mi to the Gas Gas no Mi and the Bisu Bisu no Mi to Bis Bis no Mi. As we named the Gol Gol no Mi since it was written like that in the movie, I think we should rename these other two fruits because they are also spelled out in English in the manga (Gas Gas on Caesar's jacket and Bis on Cracker's soldiers' belt buckles) Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 02:32, July 11, 2017 (UTC)

Consistency is key Meshack (talk) 02:56, July 11, 2017 (UTC)

I agree. We can treat Gas the same way we treat kilo, since it's an English word. And Bis is just biscuit in romaji. Yeah, I'm fine with that. 04:15, July 11, 2017 (UTC)

How about having the English words in English and leave the onomatopoeias as is? Meshack (talk) 06:58, July 11, 2017 (UTC)

Nah, leave them as is or translate the "no Mi" part as well. 22:10, July 11, 2017 (UTC)

I'm not against that. I'm al for it Meshack (talk) 04:09, July 12, 2017 (UTC)

Kage, if you want to translate no mi, then you and I will sit down and go tit for tat with every single fruit to find suitable English names. If the task is not semantically and meticulously daunting to the point of insanity, then we're doing it wrong. But that's another vote for another day. 04:51, July 12, 2017 (UTC)

I want to adress the inconsistency here. We have Kilo Kilo and Gol Gol, and we have Gasu Gasu and Bisu Bisu. The problem here is that the first 2 are spelled like that because they are derived from English, however, gasu and bisu are also derived from English words. However, the list does not end here:


 * Bomu Bomu is derived from the English bomb


 * Doa Doa is derived from door


 * Beri Beri is derived from berry


 * Horo Horo is derived from hollow


 * Woshu Woshu is derived from wash


 * Hobi Hobi is derived from hobby


 * Ato Ato is derived from art


 * Jake Jake is derived from jacket


 * Soru Soru is derived from soul


 * Kuku Kuku is derived from cook

I see three options here:

1) We stick to the Japanese way of pronouncing on all Devil Fruits. This is the option I prefer. This would mean reverting kilo to kiro.


 * 1a) Make an exception for gol gol.


 * 1b) Change gol to goru. The argument here can be made that the English spelling was shown and according to the above said consensus we would not need to follow this spelling.

2) We only change the English-derived DF names that we have seen spelt out, like bisu and gasu. I'm fine with this too.

3) We change all English-derived DF names to the English spelling.

22:11, July 13, 2017 (UTC)

I'm in favor of this. In fact, since the inconsistency would get thrown out of whack if we don't go all in, I'm now in favor of completely translating them as long as proper discussion is had post-vote and pre-renaming. 07:23, July 18, 2017 (UTC)

I'm in favor of finding a suitable English word for the different Fruits and translating no Mi. I'm also in favor of translating no Mi and keeping the Fruit name the same like we do with islands. Meshack (talk) 07:51, July 19, 2017 (UTC)

Seeing where the conversation and some of the options are going, I'd rather charge forward than move back. 06:26, July 24, 2017 (UTC)

So which option would that be, DP? Translating them all into English? 22:19, August 11, 2017 (UTC)

Yes. All of it. No Mi, the name, everything. However, and here's where people will start disagreeing, a select few users will discuss each fruit's English name and come to a consensus, should the motion pass. I was thinking 12th, myself, and you. But I'm getting ahead of myself here. tl;dr Translate them all completely. 09:14, August 14, 2017 (UTC)

I would prefer sticking to the Japanese way of pronouncing all Devil Fruits. 15:47, August 14, 2017 (UTC)


 * DP, I'm the casual drunk in the corner who occasionally gives sage advice, not someone you talk to about Japanese translations. I must also in good conscience add that I am firmly for keeping "no Mi" over changing it to "Fruit". The rest sounds good though.


 * 16:57, August 14, 2017 (UTC)

I know i'm a bit late for the party, but is this discussion really based on the fact that Caesar and Cracker have a writing on their outfits? Rhavkin (talk) 17:13, August 14, 2017 (UTC)

Yes, Rhavkin, it is about that.

Go with spelled out. It is confirmed information, unlike the other English-derived fruit names. As for "no Mi", it shouldn't be a question. If we change to "Fruit", we might as well use all English, all the time. That is not worth it in my opinion. 17:15, August 14, 2017 (UTC)

But who said the words are related to their Devil Fruits? Caesar dealt with poisonous gas (Koro and Shinokuni) and Cracker is the Minister of Biscuits (not to mention what wore the belt was his Biscuit Soldier). A character who is wearing a Doskoi Panda shirt doesn't necessarily ate the Doskoi Panda fruit. Rhavkin (talk) 17:25, August 14, 2017 (UTC)

That is an awful counter example. I can see how your thinking lines up for "Gas", but "Bis" isn't exactly a common word or phrase. Because the translations are a little flexible in general, we now have sources in the manga that indicate how they are supposed to be translated. 17:32, August 14, 2017 (UTC)

The point is that we do not know what the "BIS" stands for. its kinda speculative to say that it is related to the fruit's name. Rhavkin (talk) 17:47, August 14, 2017 (UTC)

I myself am very hesitant in translating everything, since there's still alot of DF fruits based on onomotoneoepia (whatever it's called) and on japanese words, making translation very difficult. My support definitely goes to keeping everything the way of Japanese pronounciation, since we have an assurance everything is both consistent and technically correct. 18:58, August 14, 2017 (UTC)

I agree with using pure Japanese (Gasu, Bisu, Kiro, etc.) for the sake of consistency. And I don't think there should be an exception for Goru (Gol). 19:13, August 14, 2017 (UTC)

I support DP's proposition to translate everything. If not, then keep everything as Japanese pronounciation with no exceptions for Bisu/Gasu. 20:52, August 14, 2017 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that the last time we discussed changing no Mi to Fruit we polled it and it was pretty onesided. But hey, who knows.

18:34, August 15, 2017 (UTC)

We don't know what Gol Gol is for so we should change Gol Gol no Mi back to Goru Goru no Mi. That's the logic here Meshack (talk) 02:40, August 16, 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, Gol is a mystery, so it reverts. So are we keeping everything Japanese with the aforementioned exceptions or are we polling for complete translation? 05:54, August 24, 2017 (UTC)

So what are we doing? 03:54, September 15, 2017 (UTC)

It's been a few months. I think we should poll it - with options for all Japanese, all English, and Japanese with only the exceptions of Gas, Bis, and Gol. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 22:26, January 18, 2018 (UTC)

All Japanese would have to exclude things like Kilo Kilo no Mi since it would be Kiro which isn't a word. SeaTerror (talk) 20:20, January 24, 2018 (UTC)

I agree. Let's poll it. Standard rules apply. 06:53, January 25, 2018 (UTC)

Are we polling the idea, just Bis and Gas, the whole list Aurora wrote in the beginning, or each fruit individuality? A quick Goggle translate show that some of the English words (door, berry, art, jacket, and cook) does translate to the fruit name (doa, beri, ato, jaketto, and kukku) so shouldn't they be excluded? And doesn't the kilo-kiro falls under Japanese pronunciation issue? Can we just decide before the poll on which fruits is this referring to? Rhavkin (talk) 07:08, January 25, 2018 (UTC)

So for English words pronounced in Japanese like Doa, Beri, and Ato, the English option would change them to Door, Berry, Art. If it's an abbreviation though, I think we should keep it as is (aka not turning Jake into Jacket, because the word isn't jacket)

I think the option to have all the pronounciations be Japanese should include changing Kilo to Kiro. Kiro is a word in the exact same way Ato is a word, that's spelled differently because of the rules of Japanese pronunciation. The Japanese-with-exceptions option could include keeping Kilo. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 19:25, January 25, 2018 (UTC)

I already pointed out on the talk page about that. Kirogram is not a word. SeaTerror (talk) 19:42, January 25, 2018 (UTC)

An English word, written in Japanese, then translated back again would have issues because the sounds are not 1:1. If the fruit is clearly trying to be abbreviated from an English loanword, making it Engrish does not help anything.--Sandwichman2449 (talk) 19:48, January 25, 2018 (UTC)

Bisu isn't short for biscuit and Goru isn't short for Gold either. So it wouldn't make sense if we decided to call them Bisu and Goru but left Kiro as Kilo. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 19:54, January 25, 2018 (UTC)
 * To better clarify, you say that Kirogram is not a word, but in the same vein of logic, Bisucuit and Gorud aren't words either. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 19:57, January 25, 2018 (UTC)

This was only about the ones that were spelled out i.e. Gol, Bis, Gas. Not any other ones derived from English. 19:57, January 25, 2018 (UTC)

Bisu is not short for biscuit, but bisu is short for bisuketto, the Japanese pronunciation of biscuit, which is directly derived from biscuit. Likewise, without naming the page using Japanese characters, the most accurate name of any fruit derived from an English word should reflect that word.--Sandwichman2449 (talk) 20:26, January 25, 2018 (UTC)

So the Bis is not different from the Jake. Both are short for Japanese pronounces English words. Rhavkin (talk) 20:39, January 25, 2018 (UTC)

I know I'm late for this conversation (new full-time job), but I agree with going for consistency: in my personal opinion we should go with Japanese pronunciation, since the entire Devil Fruit is more or less derived from Japanese onomatopoeia or words, so these Japanese pronunciations should also be from Japanese (with the "-u" at the end of the words). 01:50, January 26, 2018 (UTC)

OK, I see what Kage means and I agree, the option should be english-based spellings for just the fruits that have been romanized as such. I had stumbled before with "Jake" since that doesn't smoothly pronounce any shortened form of jacket, so it'd definitely be easier to just go with the ones that were explicitly spelled out. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 01:56, January 26, 2018 (UTC)

If you're going by that logic then literally none have been spelled out. SeaTerror (talk) 05:03, January 26, 2018 (UTC)

Poll Discussion
Yeeeah this one slipped away a bit. Let's get this done. Test poll up now. If there are no problems with it, then it'll open in four days. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 19:24, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

The Devil Fruit words were never spelled different in the manga. The poll is misleading. SeaTerror (talk) 19:33, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

First of all, let's clarify that we are not talking about every DF (Kuma's Nikyu Nikyu no Mi will remain as is with three syllables), and only English inspired words, right? Rhavkin (talk) 19:36, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

Note: Not all words are taken from the English language. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:44, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

"Kyu" is only one syllable. But otherwise, yes. I was under the impression that the words up for changing were the ones that had been romanized in the manga, namely Gasu Gasu→Gas Gas, as written on Caesar's jacket, and Bisu Bisu→Bis Bis, as written on the belt buckle of Cracker's Biscuit Soliders, to go along with the Goru Goru→Gol Gol change we made a year ago. Voting to keep all the names as two syllables would return Gol Gol back to Goru Goru. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 20:00, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

Isn't it "Ni-ky-u? I guess I've been pronouncing that wrong, never mind. So it's just those three? Rhavkin (talk) 20:09, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I think so. Problem with translating all English loanwords is that some of them are shortened (like Jake Jake no Mi) and I'm not really sure how we would go about that, so it's best to stick with only the ones actually romanized in the manga. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 20:41, June 11, 2018 (UTC)


 * It's Ni-ki-yu. Like Tokyo is to(o)-ki-yo(o)

Again, none were romanized or spelled out. The words that were there were not in reference to the name of a Devil Fruit. They were just English words. The poll is still misleading. SeaTerror (talk) 21:45, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

They were directly shown in conjunction with the users. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 22:23, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

They were on belts or jackets. Can you show in the manga where it was stated those were actually in reference to the Devil Fruit names themselves? In fact this is incredibly misleading "Yes. For example, "Bis Bis" would be kept as "Bisu Bisu" The "word" used was "Bis" Not "Bis Bis". SeaTerror (talk) 22:46, June 11, 2018 (UTC)

The poll definitely feels weirdly phrased from the initial discussion. I feel like the options should be laid out clearly:

a) All with their pure romanized form

b) Exceptions permitted on a case-by-case basis

And then, a second poll on all the contended fruit names such as the Biscuit, Gas, Gold and likely Kilo fruits that will be valid if option b) wins in the first poll.

I don't enjoy the framing as it implies that we are directly voting on how to name those specific exceptions instead of formulating a general rule.

All the fruits should be affected by this poll. All, since if we go case-by-case exception, we'd have another discussion that would bring contradictions to this talk we had. Consistent and smooth. 01:22, June 13, 2018 (UTC)

I see what you mean, Rici, but the discussion of whether or not to change Gasu Gasu and Bisu Bisu stems directly from the precedent set by Gol Gol, so it makes sense for the poll to be about whether or not we should actually make a precedent out of Gol Gol. If B wins I don't really see why we would need to take further specific looks at Gasu Gasu and Bisu Bisu, because I'm not sure what further standards would have to be applied to them. As Yata said, it's better to be consistent with our naming system. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 03:36, June 13, 2018 (UTC)

Just changing one word doesn't change the fact that the poll is still misleading. SeaTerror (talk) 07:14, June 13, 2018 (UTC)

The poll affects all devil fruits. I am in complete agreement with that. But the poll literally suggests that we follow the way in which they are officially written in the manga. From what I have seen, some are still debated. My opinion is that the poll should be reworded in order to emphasise that point.

If for all fruits, you use the romanized version, then that smooths everything out. For the other option I am very confused though. How will this be enforced in order? The Gol Gol fruit was specifically written in latin characters, while with Bis Bis and Gas Gas, it was the same. Does the vote then entail that

1) The first source for DF naming is the appearance of their name in latin characters in a canon source

2) The second source for DF naming is the romanization of Japanese characters in a canon source

?

Since as SeaTerror has been arguing before, between 1 and 2, there can still be an additional 1.5 step in the process, which is the validity of a claim that it is the DF's name written in latin characters, and not something actually different. It is where I specify that each fruit will still be open for debate and more minute analysis.

So, my confusion arises over where the consistency lies and what my vote will mean. Will it mean that I will for the complete erasing of that 1.5 step and make ANY presence of latin characters in the manga or a movie as the De Facto name for the devil fruit, or am I voting to permit such a step to emerge??

If this is not specifically clarified, I think ST will be allowed to criticize further and the vote will not provide the legitimate change that we all desire.

Gomu gomu no mi being changed to Gomgom no mi like it was romanized in the anime or riot

Yeah, I can see situations where, if a Devil Fruit name is romanized in the future, we might need to take a closer look to make sure we can use the romanization as the source for its name. But as far as I can tell, no issue was made about the sources of Gas Gas and Bis Bis until ST's when the poll came up Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 16:16, June 13, 2018 (UTC)

"If you're going by that logic then literally none have been spelled out. SeaTerror (talk) 05:03, January 26, 2018 (UTC)" and Rhavkin's comments. SeaTerror (talk) 16:22, June 13, 2018 (UTC)

I'm confused; The whole discussion started with Kaido wanting to rename Bisu and Gasu to Bis and Gas, and now he's voting to keep them. I don't know if questioning someone's vote is against the rules or anything, but Kaido, did you change your mind or sign in the wrong place? If neither then I still do not understand the voting options. Rhavkin (talk) 10:49, June 18, 2018 (UTC)

Poll should have been corrected before being opened. It is still misleading people who would vote for the 2nd option. SeaTerror (talk) 16:30, June 18, 2018 (UTC)

Post Poll Discussion
Never have I seen a more of a landslide in this wiki, but there's always a first for anything. Now, as for other English based DF names:
 * 1) I still don't think that Caesar's and Cracker's clouting can be consider romanization, while Tesoro's Gol Gol no Mi was romanized (during Carina explanation of their plan around 0:53.03 ).
 * 2) How exactly are the "Japanese two-syllable naming system" win means that "Kilo" should be changed to "Kiro"?
 * 3) Which of the DF AoD listed back in July 13th (wow, it's almost been a year) are still on debate?

Rhavkin (talk) 04:36, July 2, 2018 (UTC)

Can this go under trivia ?

 * Though it is shown that a devil fruits can be eaten by humans, Fishman,Dwarfs,Giants,Minks Etc it is currently unknown if species that are created by devil fruits such as zombies homies or toys can eat devil fruitsTo love this (talk) 04:20, May 25, 2018 (UTC)

It irrelevant to list races who hadn't eaten a Devil Fruit. Rhavkin (talk) 13:08, May 25, 2018 (UTC)

Extraction
There is nothing on extraction in the article.

I've only recently gotten into One Piece, and from that perspective, this wiki's style of using the Japanese Devil Fruit names is confusing. I don't know Japanese, so it's difficult to obtain context when reading lists of Devil Fruits and what they are without having to click through everything. I know this wiki tries to use romanization from various sources as reference for English-translated terms, but this a pretty fast-and-loose rule with a lot of exceptions. I wonder if it wouldn't benefit the encyclopedic tone of this wiki to use the more easily accesible English Devil Fruit names, since most are easily translated anyays. 2001:569:785F:3100:466:C0C6:8F8C:38A5 01:19, June 3, 2018 (UTC)

We don't have anything about extraction because we know nothing about it other than that it can be done. As for the names of the fruits, if you read some of the previous discussion, you'll see there's a lot of back and forth in that topic. 05:57, June 5, 2018 (UTC)

Old Topic
Iv'e seen several discussions about this in the achieve, but there was never a clear objection or reason not to move the unnamed fruit to their respective type pages. Can anyone say why shouldn't they move? Rhavkin (talk) 18:28, February 12, 2019 (UTC)

I agree. Also, I would be in support of removing the Devil Fruit Count section. Simply saying how many Devil Fruits they are isn't particularly helpful or informative, and is pretty easy to vandalize. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 18:59, February 12, 2019 (UTC)

I think it is impotent to note how many Devil Fruits are there, thou it could be just "So far, over ### different Devil Fruits have been shown to exist", or something, in this page and on each type opening paragraph. And we can discuss after how many new fruits to update the number, or have the specific number on each type, and a round number in the general page. We should also decide whether we count only canon DF. Rhavkin (talk) 19:08, February 12, 2019 (UTC)

The table's useful, it's just the unconfirmed users number that murky and subjective, and on that basis undermines the table. Take those out and leave it as named Devil Fruits only and it's fine. 45.56.153.99 19:50, February 12, 2019 (UTC)

I don't see why it can't be on both articles. Removing it here would just make the article much smaller and stubby looking. Also the table is definitely needed. There's no unconfirmed users in the table either. The undetermined section is for unknown type. SeaTerror (talk) 19:44, February 14, 2019 (UTC)

This page is quite long, so no, removing the unnamed fruits section would not make it a stub. Currently this page is 50,000 bytes, if we removed the unnamed fruits it would be 45,000. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 19:52, February 14, 2019 (UTC)

Let's talk about the table later, I'm gonna jump on the opportunity of SeaTerror not against something, and start the discussion about the number we use for the count. Personally, I don't see why not use the actual numbers. Rhavkin (talk) 20:05, February 14, 2019 (UTC)

The numbers are in the table. That's the actual count. SeaTerror (talk) 20:49, February 14, 2019 (UTC)

I meant, "Should we include non canon ans SBS fruits"? Rhavkin (talk) 08:44, February 15, 2019 (UTC)

Only the SBS ones should go simply because they were all jokes and not meant to be taken serious. SeaTerror (talk) 08:54, February 15, 2019 (UTC)

While we're talking, is there any reason not to merge the pages with tabs like the Haki page? Rhavkin (talk) 15:46, February 15, 2019 (UTC)

Levitation
Levitation is floating while flight is actually flight. Floating isn't the same as flying. SeaTerror (talk) 17:00, April 21, 2019 (UTC)

Floating is on water or liquid. Levitation is a form of flying that is limited to raising and descending independently from the ground, for a long period of time, without the ability to change directions, while flight is the ability to do both. Rhavkin (talk) 17:08, April 21, 2019 (UTC)

Balloons float, they don't fly. SeaTerror (talk) 00:35, April 22, 2019 (UTC)

Levitation is partial flight, and it was listed in the point about fruits that allow partial flight. Don't see why you want it removed. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 00:53, April 22, 2019 (UTC)

Because it isn't partial flight. It's floating. SeaTerror (talk) 01:38, April 22, 2019 (UTC)

Balloons float due to an external force, usually the helium inside, just like a boat float on water because of the force the water applies onto it. As I explained before, Levitation and flying are independent. Rhavkin (talk) 06:18, April 22, 2019 (UTC)

Yes and floating is different from flying which is what levitation is. SeaTerror (talk) 22:10, April 23, 2019 (UTC)

Again with your selective reading. I said that levitation is independent. Rhavkin (talk) 22:20, April 23, 2019 (UTC)

One way to achieve flight is by floating (e.g. hot air balloons), and levitation is a method of floating. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 23:58, April 23, 2019 (UTC)

Hot air balloons also float but don't fly. SeaTerror (talk) 00:17, April 24, 2019 (UTC)

What are your criteria for "flight" and what is your source for said criteria? From what I can find, hot air balloons are termed "flying machines" and travel in hot air balloons is termed "flight." Dragonus Nesha (talk) 01:17, April 24, 2019 (UTC)

float verb [no object]

1Rest or move on or near the surface of a liquid without sinking. ‘she relaxed, floating gently in the water’

1.1with object and adverbial Cause (a buoyant object) to rest or move on or near the surface of a liquid. ‘trees were felled and floated downstream’

1.2 Be suspended freely in a liquid or gas. ‘fragments of chipped cartilage floated in the joint’

2with adverbial of direction Move or hover slowly and lightly in a liquid or the air; drift. ‘clouds floated across a brilliant blue sky’

Hot air balloons move slowly because they are floating. They don't fly. SeaTerror (talk) 16:18, April 29, 2019 (UTC)

Where exactly is it said in your definition that floating, levitation or whatever aren't part of flying? It will be a lot simpler if you'd do what Dragonus suggested and give your definition for what "flying" is, instead of what isn't flying. Rhavkin (talk) 17:41, April 29, 2019 (UTC)

That's from the Oxford dictionary. Hot air balloons are lifted by hot gas instead of independently too. SeaTerror (talk) 19:51, April 29, 2019 (UTC)

"give your definition for what "flying" is" Rhavkin (talk) 20:20, April 29, 2019 (UTC)