Talk:Fish-Man Karate

Kanji for the attack names
No offense, but the kanji used for most of these attacks are all wrong. Here's an example: I checked the RAW scan of Chapter 541 to find this out. Here is a website for those RAWs: http://mangahelpers.com/. I managed to find this much, but to find out about the earlier scans is quite difficult, not to mention finding the kanji is hard, so please someone work on fixing Kuroobi's and Jinbei's moves in kanji (I think Katopy's are fine). Yatanogarasu 18:52, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Jinbei's Karakusagawara Seiken (Arabesque Tile True Punch): (殻 草側 羅聖剣)
 * The real kanji is supposed to be: 唐草瓦正拳


 * I and half of the editors can't check Kanji. I suspect half fo the kanji written up here has just be thrown through a on-line translator and not properly written. I can never check these out though. :-/ One-Winged Hawk 06:37, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Fishman Jujutsu
Jinbei used Fishman Jujutsu: Mizugokoro. Is Fishman Jujutsu different than Fishman Karate, or is is a sub-category of sorts? Yatanogarasu 03:34, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Karate and Jujutsu are both two different styles of martial arts. Karate is of Chinese origin, Jujutsu Japanese. I guess this page should really be "Fishman Martial Arts" or something. One-Winged Hawk 10:39, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that the Karate is punches and such, and the Jujutsu is more "bending the water", but i seriously don't know. Ruffy04 14:18, November 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that the Karate is punches and such, and the Jujutsu is more "bending the water", but i seriously don't know. Ruffy04 14:18, November 11, 2010 (UTC)

Merman Combat
Should Merman Combat get its own page, or should it be merged with this page and rename this page something like Aquatic Martial Arts? 00:51, March 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * Might be a mistranslation or something, let's wait. Yatanogarasu 04:58, March 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * We could do what we did with Okama and Newkama Kenpo and split it up into two sections; one for Fishman Karate and another section for Merman Combat. 212.219.39.146 14:28, May 5, 2011 (UTC)

Should we add Arlong and Hody Jones to the Fishman karate users since they can manipulate water as a weapon?

Antonisgabrielides 14:11, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

No, because they never used the water in the human body. They just shot people. 16:34, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

But Jinbe points Hody Jones as an fishman karate user in chapter 635.

Antonisgabrielides 09:06, August 18, 2011 (UTC)

Jinbe's new attack
I really don't care if you add it in or not, but Jinbe's new attack isn't finished. I recall it was "Fishman Karate Hidden Technique Buraikan" and all you put in is the Buraikan part.

Now as I said, I don't care if you add it in or not, but I want the kanji nd romaji for Fishman Karate Hidden Technique which you didn't put in.74.105.158.11 22:54, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

Errmmmm....Weirdowithcoffee 23:18, November 17, 2011 (UTC)Weirdowithcoffee

You say you don't care yet you argue like you care. Makes sense. Monkey.D.Me 23:19, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

I don't care if you do it, but you should. I won't do it because I don't care, but you should do it.

I am anon. OBEY ME!  le MEME GUY  Troll  23:22, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

Oh, how silly of me to forget we were at the beck and call of some anon who just made his first edit to demand something. Oh, wait, we're not. A few words of advice. Try using please once in a while. It really helps. Second, make it a question not a statement. We are not here to serve you. If you want someone here to serve your desires for content, well then tough toenails, chucklenuts. Lastly, if you want something added, find it your damn self. You do it if you want it so bad, don't just drop it on people who actually contribute. I hope we reached an understanding. 23:25, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

Story time everyone

Kid: (to stranger) Hey mister, Wanna steal my lolypop?

Mister: No, Why should I? I don't care about you lolypop.

Kid: Well I don't care. But you should care about stealing my lolypop.

Mister: I don't care about your lolypop so why should i steal it?

Kid: I don't care but you should. You should really care about stealing my lolypop.

Mister: Boy, your parents much be so proud of you, for a reason i don't care.

Moral of story: You statements shall not be Base-less and must make sense.

Monkey.D.Me 23:33, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

Geez, I don't care if it's in ARTICLE TEXT but the only reason why I came here is because I cannot find a raw and I don't have access to Kanji text but I want it for a project and this site is the only place I can turn to. I don't want you people "serve me" and I don't expect you to do so. I have my reasons why I won't put it in, the biggest reason why as I said before, I couldn't find a raw so I don't know and I don't have access to Kanji text. Seriously, you can't expect everyone on this site to have access to raws and Kanji text. And the other reason is because I have what you call a "troll" who undos all of my edits no matter how significant it is. Secondly, this is NOT my first edit, however, my first edit was very similar to this, but I did say words like "please" and "thank you," however, all I got was rude responses, so it doesn't seem to matter if it would make a difference because I always get rude responses here.

Now I hope WE made an understanding. But I agree I should have been more clear. I hope this will ease you more...

"I do not have access to the raw or Kanji text so this is the only place I can turn to. Would you please add the Kanji text and the romaji text for Fishman Karate Hidden Technique since this was part of his attack and it incomplete. Thank you"74.105.158.11 01:19, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

Tile?
I see some of Jinbei's moves has "tile" in it. What does this suppose to mean? Is there any old Japanese sayings or phrases that have"tile" ,"shark" and "water"?Terrialstrasz 08:05, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Caribou
"and Caribou, a swamp-man, whose form is basically water mixed with earth."

That's speculation. Jinbe may just have used Haki to beat down Caribou. Is it ok if I remove it ? Bad77Wolf (talk) 06:35, November 28, 2014 (UTC)

Do we know Jinbe can use haki? No. Do we know Jinbe can use Fishman Karate? Yes. So how is haki, something we haven't seen him use, less speculative than something we've actually seen him do? 08:11, November 28, 2014 (UTC)

There is absolutely zero evidence to state that Fishman Karate can effect a Logia user. SeaTerror (talk) 08:13, November 28, 2014 (UTC)

Apart from the whole water thing effecting any DF user... Sure, a purely physical strike there's no evidence, but throwing water is still Fishman karate. So is it not far more likely that Jinbe, being a Fishman and being underwater, just used the environment and Caribou's incompetence?

10:32, November 28, 2014 (UTC)

Jinbe punched Caribou by your same logic then Pekoms is a Fishman Karate user. SeaTerror (talk) 18:08, November 28, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, it's way less speculative to say that it was FK used to hit Caribou. I also see no reason for this to be an active discussion, since there's a clear majority here. 18:29, November 28, 2014 (UTC)

There is no clear majority since nobody even commented since the discussion is so new. Plus it is the holidays. The only logical explanation if it isn't Haki is that Fishman Karate only effects Caribou because his Logia is swamp which means he's part water. SeaTerror (talk) 19:51, November 28, 2014 (UTC)

Since Caribou's body is non-solid, if Jinbe strikes it with Fishman Karate, the water content would just be splashed around harmlessly, like Luffy punching Crocodile's sandy form without doing any damage back then. 20:46, November 28, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, it's clear that there had to be haki involved. 21:12, November 28, 2014 (UTC)

Except we've seen Caribou not automatically turn fluid before. Chapter 604. A logia user doesn't automatically turn to their element when they're struck unless they've trained to do that. The possible explanations are: Jinbe has Haki, Jinbe hit Caribou with water, or Jinbe hit Caribou normally and the rookie was taken off guard. To my mind we have insufficient evidence to suggest either Jinbe has Haki or Fishman Karate effects DF users.

22:23, November 28, 2014 (UTC)

Except we can clearly see that Caribou is in his swamp form when Jinbe punches him. And regarding Chapter 604, he took the hits on purpose. 23:52, November 28, 2014 (UTC)

So it's either Haki or Jinbe's ability to attack the water content within one's body. Here are issues that counter the water content theory: How's this? 00:21, November 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) Since Caribou's body is liquid, causing ripples via water content attack is not going to cause physical harm.
 * 2) Haki neutralizes the intangibility and allows one to inflict harm, as Jinbe did.
 * 3) Let's face it, Jinbe is a former Shichibukai, using Busoshoku Haki should be expected of him.
 * 4) Jinbe's punch made direct contact, not via water vibrations in the air. If he did not use Haki, his punch should have phased into the swamp body, and trapped.

We know the karate affects any df user because he used it on Luffy, which is how we got the explanation behind it. So trying to argue that Caribou is special is talking out your butt. We've never seen Jinbe use haki, so to say he used it is speculation, unlike an ability we've seen him use that can also explain it. Believe haki if you want, I'm going to go with the one we've actually seen happen.

We know Fishman Karate hits DF users whose bodies can be damaged by vibrations, to be accurate...

02:06, November 29, 2014 (UTC)

No, DF users are not specifically affected by that. Luffy's injured only because the water molecule vibrations injure him internally, similar to an Impact Dial and Rokuogan. 02:12, November 29, 2014 (UTC)

The one thing Luffy's powers have in common with Logia users is that they can be immune to general impacts like those from a regular punch. As we've seen with other fishman karate users, there are attacks that make direct contact with the body. Jinbe could have usedd that kind of attack for all we know. It is foolish to assume haki when there is a second more likely option. 02:24, November 29, 2014 (UTC)

See, I agree that it's probably not Haki, but I don't think it's Fishman Karate... ah well. Have we seen anyone using Busoshoku Haki since the timeskip without the black effect? Because I doubt Oda would miss that accidentally.

02:28, November 29, 2014 (UTC)

Just Tashigi, though considering her lack of skill at the time and the fact that she was wearing gloves, she doesn't even come close to being a solid counterpoint.

Then can we agree that it's not Haki and move on?

10:08, November 29, 2014 (UTC)

Let me be clear, I'm not saying that the Haki explanation is necessarily the good one but I think that without further evidence, we should abstain to affirm any of the two. Luffy is not proof enough on his own, he can still be hurt by many things that wouldn't affect a Logia user. Bad77Wolf (talk) 11:33, November 29, 2014 (UTC)

Yata is correct. It has to be haki. Fishman Karate does not affect logia users.

"The black effect" is called hardening and we've seen plenty of people use Busoshoku Haki without it. Pekoms, for example, who also punched Caribou. 12:03, November 29, 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't make sense to even mention Luffy when he's not a Logia anyway. SeaTerror (talk) 18:07, November 29, 2014 (UTC)

And where did it say that fishman karate couldn't affect logia users? That's just an assumption someone made to further their argument. Until we see him use haki, it's speculation to say he used it. Fishman karate is the only logical explanation that doesn't jump to conclusions based on unproven and groundless assumptions. 19:49, November 30, 2014 (UTC)

Where did it say that it could? That's an unproven and groundless assumption. "Until we see him use haki"? He's using it right there. By your logic it's speculation to say that Usopp has CoO. 20:31, November 30, 2014 (UTC)

No, because we've actually seen Usopp use haki, unlike Jinbe. You just gave the exact opposite example what you're trying to argue. Jinbe said that fishman karate hurts people by affecting the water inside their bodies. It's still possible to do damage to a logia user internally. Besides, given Caribou's ability, water is part of his swamp power because swamps contain water, as does quicksand. 20:53, November 30, 2014 (UTC)

Does magma have water inside it? Or light? No. Luffy, despite being a rubber man, still has blood and organs, which is why stuff like Fishman Karate and Impact Dials can hurt him. When logia users become their element, they don't have any of that. For Fishman Karate to hurt them, it would have to affect their true bodies - something only haki is known to be able to do. Claiming otherwise is completely groundless speculation.

And regarding swamps containing water, Yata already explained why Fishman Karate still wouldn't hurt him. 21:14, November 30, 2014 (UTC)

That isn't what you said at all. "We know the karate affects any df user because he used it on Luffy, which is how we got the explanation behind it." You implied it wouldn't effect a normal person like Zoro. SeaTerror (talk) 21:17, November 30, 2014 (UTC)

ST, if you read the chapter where it was explained, you'd know that Luffy got hit, was surprised by said hit, and then Jinbe explained how Luffy was able to take damage from a blunt impact despite being made of rubber. Kage, you again neglect to acknowledge the obvious, scientific fact that CARIBOU'S POWER INVOLVES WATER. Look up what a swamp is, or quicksand, you'll see both require water. Also, we've never seen the inside of a logia user in element form, so for all we know it is possible for them to be affected. I realize that's getting a little 4th dimensional, but is nonetheless the case. What is also the case is that haki is assumed. Haki isn't the end-all be-all answer for everything. If you examine all the facts, you'd see that fishman karate is just as likely, and due to its confirmed presence, is the superior, non-speculative choice. 23:07, November 30, 2014 (UTC)

Logia and a rubber man are not the same. DP, I think your saying is too speculative. "Caribou=swamp=water=can be hurt by fishman karate" theory is far-fetched. --Klobis (talk) 04:56, December 1, 2014 (UTC)

I realize that Luffy is not a logia. And how is saying that too far-fetched? It's one degree of the transitive property. Fishman karate affects water. Caribou's powers involve water. Fishman karate can affect Caribou. How is that too out there?... Okay, the best way to paint this is with an example. Picture this, Kizaru is in full light form. Someone shoots a seastone bullet and by some miracle hits him in the leg and exits out the other side but he keeps moving. What happens? It affects devil fruit users, so it wouldn't pass right through. Smart money says he starts to bleed while in light form. Even though they are in elemental form, they are still a human body. While their body (like Luffy's) grants them immunity from external damage, internal damage is its own story. You have to look at the duality at work here to understand why fishman karate is the better choice. 07:02, December 1, 2014 (UTC)

Logia users have never been shown as vulnerable to internal damage and that wouldn't be very consistent with the fact they can be torn into pieces without harm. When a pirate shot Kizaru in the head, the bullet didn't destroy his brain, it just passed through. Maybe Fishman Karate could hurt Caribou or maybe it would just create a harmless ripple through his swamp-body. We can't pretend to know, especially because it mostly depends on Oda's scenario needs. Bad77Wolf (talk) 10:17, December 1, 2014 (UTC)

DP, you're not making any sense. Are you seriously claiming that logia users just have an element coating or something, that they still have a body underneath? That's not how it works. Logia users completely become their element. That's why they can be cut, punched, crushed, severed or broken into a million pieces without them taking any damage. What would happen in your Kizaru example is simple: The seastone nullifies his power for the split-second it's touching him and causes damage to his non-elemental, tangible body. It seems you're still trying to make comparisons to Luffy despite the fact that his powers are inherently different from logias.

I already told you to look at Yata's post as to why swamps having water doesn't matter, but here it is again: "Since Caribou's body is liquid, causing ripples via water content attack is not going to cause physical harm." 16:05, December 1, 2014 (UTC)

So in ch 690 Vergo implies that Smoker making his body larger with is a mistake, since he, a haki user can hit Smoker's body. This is further corroborated by Luffy and Caesar's fight in 671, where Caesar needs to dodge Luffy's attack. These both show that Logia users still have a "body" when they are in elemental form, and that body can be damaged.

Now, in ch 629, Jinbe explains that FK uses the water in people's bodies to hit them. And he says that "all living beings are filled with water" right afterwards. This implies that FK user do have the potential to strike the bodies of Logia users, even in elemental form.

Also, I finally remembered my reasoning that I used when this whole issue first popped up. Look at the image where Jinbe KO's Caribou. There is no evidence of Jinbe making contact with Caribou's face, rather he is using a stream of water to hit him. This means that even if he is using Haki, he is also using FK. And if he is using Haki to hit him, and not FK, that would imply that he's imbuing water with Haki, which seems pretty far-fetched to me. Anyways, I still believe we are best off leaving it as FK. Though I think Haki should not be used on the page as the only argument, because we've never seen Jinbe use it, and in order to confirm Haki, we'd have to rule out FK, which I believe we can not do. It's FK that did it, or an "unknown ability". Not Haki. 02:39, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

God I love being right. 05:54, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

If anything that backs up what I said about it only effecting Caribou due to the water from his swamp. SeaTerror (talk) 06:11, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

So are we concluding that Jinbe has not been proven to have Haki, and can we move on to whether it's Fishman Karate?

21:47, January 26, 2015 (UTC)

Not proven to be Haki =/= proven to be Fishman Karate. Though I don't know if there's any point in discussing anymore since the controversial statement has already been removed. Unless someone wants to add it back in?

In any case, I don't know where you're getting the "stream of water" thing from, JSD. Jinbe has clearly hit Caribou on his cheek. 21:57, January 26, 2015 (UTC)


 * The impact on Caribou's face is the size and shape of the stream of water, not the size and shape of Jinbe's fist. And the distance between the two of them would make it impressive to still have hit him directly. 23:05, January 26, 2015 (UTC)


 * What stream of water? There is no stream of water visible in the picture, and Jinbe hasn't really been shown utilize any. His techniques involve shockwaves, which don't cause specific impact marks. I don't see how the mark isn't "the size and shape of Jinbe's fist". Seems pretty clear to me that Jinbe just punched him with a right hook. Distance? Caribou's just flying off from the impact, which tends to happen in manga. 23:48, January 26, 2015 (UTC)

Jesus Christ, I know I'm late to the party, but I'm amazed that this is a thing. It doesn't matter whether it's Fishman Karate or Haki or Caribou's own incompetence. What we know is that Oda hasn't 100% confirmed any theory. So why do we have to say anything about it at all? We could leave the Caribou panel off our wiki entirely until we have more info. That's how it works. If we can't confirm, we don't list it on our wiki of confirmed facts. JustSome makes a convincing case. I personally believe that theory. But it's still debatable, so why even bother saying anything about it? Am I crazy? 18:29, February 3, 2015 (UTC)

I'd have to go with Ryu, we don't know if it's Haki or Fishman Karate, since there is insufficient evidence to swing either way, and Oda haven't confirmed anything as well. So leave it off. 22:52, February 3, 2015 (UTC)

We could go on about this forever, but the truly smart thing to do is to not have it on any pages. Once someone has checked all the pages it could be on and removed it, close the discussion. 18:02, February 8, 2015 (UTC)

Done and done. 18:08, February 8, 2015 (UTC)