Talk:Toei Animation/Voice Actors

Why did you remove the nicknames of some of the characters (i.e., Pearl the Iron Wall or Gin the Deam Man). I find that unnecessary... - BattleFranky202 13:29, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Mass Deletion
I think all articles about voice actors and seiyu should be all deleted. Most of them are stubs, and they don't really have much relations to articles of One Piece, other than minor references. If we want to link to such articles, we should link them externally to Wikipedia, rather than create a small, insignificant article in One Piece Wikia. Yatanogarasu 17:45, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Also they are largely responsible for the high number of red links. I think the stub pages shall be redirected toward the wikipedia pages if it exist and the link removed if it doesn't. Kdom 12:43, January 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree. A Wikipedia article about a VA will always be better then our one because they should include a full list about their roles in other anime or dubs which is completely unrelated to One Piece. El Chupacabra 14:36, January 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * That's about 190 articles you guys are asking for deletion. Kinda of a lot of hard work was put into making them and kinda a lot more hard work to delete them. Practically an entire section of the entire wikia.


 * From what I gather from some of these actors, many of them aren't covered in Wikipedia. Mostly the Japanese cast I believe.


 * For the red links of the actors, they are primarily red because they are kinda wanted. Not everyone who writes down an actor's name knows a good enough deal about them to make a good article. Those that do however can click on the red link and aid the community.Mugiwara Franky 14:54, January 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * we are not speaking of deletion but redirection toward wikipedia articles which have more chance to evolve than here. Also I'm pretty sure it would solve half of the Red links (I tried 4 randomly and their wikipedia page exist) Kdom 15:11, January 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Which pages are these again?Mugiwara Franky 15:16, January 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure I understand your question... Kdom 15:33, January 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay, I tried using the redirecting code with Mayumi Tanaka so that it would redirect to her Wikipedia article. When I wrote her name on our search engine, it just led to the redirect page on our wikia not her Wikipedia page. So even if the goal is redirection, we are still going to have to delete 190 articles.Mugiwara Franky 15:25, January 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Why not keep the redirect page ? The actor names are also in the character boxes and probably in other articles too. Even if the search engine does not provide a direct link, it is not that difficult to access to the information Kdom 15:33, January 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * That's the thing, a redirect page is a page that supposed to redirect people to the proper page directly. If the page is just going to redirect you a empty page with just a link then it's basically a double redirect which a bit of hassle for some people. I'm going to test it out again for short while though to see if it redirects people to the right page via normal linking.Mugiwara Franky 15:42, January 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * No go either. If I go to Luffy's page and then click on Mayumi Tanaka, it'll just go to the redirect page on our wikia. For it to truly go to her page on Wikipedia directly, it will have to be a direct link on Luffy's page to Wikipedia. This would have to apply to the other articles as well. That however will mean not only deleting 190 articles, but also changing 190+ links that go to 190 articles within our wikia to 190+ links that go directly to Wikipedia.Mugiwara Franky 15:47, January 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well if you prefer having 50% of the 190 pages with only Mr x is born then and this much high. In One Piece he dubs xxxx and yyyy only to please some lazy guys... Maybe we can ask the Mediawiki staff is there is a solution for that redirection thing Kdom 15:57, January 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * If the state of the articles is the problem then the solution to it would be to create a committee or something to help improve the articles. Saying delete or redirect almost right off the bat to a rather massive problem like this is kinda like choosing a quick lazy shortcut instead of investing some time to fix the problem. True fixing the pages would take a very long and exhausting time however construction would certainly be better than deconstruction. The wikia wasn't built in a single day and it's still not finished in a way.


 * You know, this same type of problem occurred with the Episodes and Chapters. There were all one time or another asked to be deleted I believe. However since they were given enough time, they're currently looking greatly improved than what they looked like before.Mugiwara Franky 16:13, January 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * It is impossible to create a redirect from a wikia page to a wikipedia page. It will be necessary to rewrite all the links on the pages. However, the amount of work will be not larger then categorizing all the templates and images. This will not be problem. Most of Voice actors who have articles hare have articles on wikipedia as well. The lack of article sources in the lack of information about Japanese seiyuu in the english-speaking community. Perhaps we should link them to the Japanese wikipedia. P.S. If we'll decide to delete all the VA articles, we should delete the articles on the sciptwriters and animation directors as well. El Chupacabra 16:31, January 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Links to English and Japanese wikipedias as well to other sites would probably boost the pages a great deal I guess.


 * For deletion, it's really going to be a bit overboard if scriptwriters and animation directors are going to be put up for deletion as well. If this goes much further, Oda himself is probably going to be the only person involved with the creation of One Piece left. And even then his own article here might be put on the chopping block if not handled carefully.


 * The One Piece wikia kinda needs to be more than just the story itself. It kinda needs to cover the hard working people behind the franchise as well.Mugiwara Franky 16:39, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

For main voiced actors (Straw Hat) we have enough material to write and expanding their articles. For example SBS interviews must be on theirs pages. And I am pretty sure that Wikipedia don’t have interviews. That we don’t have is time.

@El Chupacabra; the tactics to merge or delete small articles doesn’t help no one. I don’t understand your problem with red links the red link exists because the article doesn’t exist.

I am against of any deletion or merge proposal.Tipota 16:50, January 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * I forgot about the actor interviews. For sure Wikipedia is not going to cover any actor interview on One Piece. Our own articles of the actors can cover those interviews. I'm not sure where I myself can a hold of such interviews. However, those are a definite must to be on our pages.Mugiwara Franky 16:57, January 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Nobody questions the fact that some of these articles are useful. The question is more that the majority of them are 5 lines length and a lot are yet to be written because there is not much more to say about them either (when links stays red forever, we have to question about their pertinences). These state is not really satisfactory and it would be good if we could agree to a decision. Kdom 00:04, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with Kdom! MasterDeva 00:26, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * The state that they're in can be improved by investing some time in improving them. It's basically the same thing with the rest of the other articles found in the wikia. Just because a page is stubby does not mean it should be a candidate for deletion or otherwise.


 * When a link stays red for a long time, while it could mean no one wants to create it, it can also mean that the right person has yet to come across it to create such an article. Seriously I too kinda don't understand the problem with red links. Red Links are just red links. It's really superficial to get cringey about wanting to get rid of them all especially in old archives and discussions. The special Wanted Pages part which seems to be the origin point of this problem, was not made to show that the red links are annoying, it was made in the prospect that such red links could be important. While not all of them are important, a chance that a certain red link can be important is always there.Mugiwara Franky 01:52, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * I disagree, the special page looses completely its purpose if you keep them, in particular the ones of the pages that have been deleted. How can you find the important link you are talking about when they are in the middle of hundreds of fake ones (in particular since the link order on this page is completely random) ? Also when a page contains a high number of red links like this one or the Events, it can hints a problem, hence the discussion we have now.
 * Also, if I judge by my experience on the uncategorized files, the special pages are limited to display 1000 links, if we continue to keep them, this page will definitly be useless Kdom 11:00, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * An excess of red links does not make the special page any less useful. If you were to take out every deleted or unwanted link, you would still have alot of red links. The special pages also normally do not have a limit to which they can list down and show. The only limit they have is how many they show at one time. They can only show 500 pages at one time. For the rest, you have to use the next function.


 * For pages like Events, it can be a problem as it seems to be a page created almost with no planning at all hence the red links are a problem. Alot of red links in the Special Wanted Pages however is not a problem. The special page was designed list down every red link in the wikia in case some of them would be important. It is meant to be full of red links. The randomness of the program is expected as it is automated. Putting effort into making the red links lower in such a page maybe good however it shouldn't be at the expense of putting alot of articles for deletion.


 * This problem with red links is really connected to this discussion from what I can see. Because you guys see alot of red links in a page that's meant to be full of red links, you wish to reduce them. A good number of them are about actors. Since filling in the blanks seems out of the question, you guys propose to delete the rest of the actors as it would be consistent with taking out the red links. A choice which is a bit absurd as the actors with pages kinda outnumber the actors without pages I believe, and such an action will only create more red links.Mugiwara Franky 11:34, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

I've counted the red links in this page and they're about 44. While they seem alot when on this page, they are small in comparison to the 190+ existing actor pages. So which exactly is the relatively easier task to reduce red links when faced with this. Delete 190+ pages due to 44 non existent pages or create 44 pages instead.Mugiwara Franky 11:43, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Once again, it is not because this paragraph is called mass deletion than it is the solution we proposed (I added a commentar long after Yatanogarasu made its posts). Since the redirect solution is not proper from your point of view, to create the 44 non existent pages is indeed a solution. I just wanted to emphasize that they will probably just be stub articles.
 * Concerning the red links, I assure you that the pages are limited. If you have not a blank page when you follow this link then it is a problem of my side (believe me there is more than 1000 uncategorized files). Also why do we make the effort to have empty pages for the uncategorized/orphaned.... pages, and not do the same for the Wanted Pages ? If you can tell me from the 800 links that belong to it so far, which ones are the one that are important to fill and the ones that are not I would agree with you, I personnaly cannot. My point of view is that too much red links kills the purpose of this page. Kdom 12:25, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * With the uncategorized and orphaned pages and files, it is acceptable to try to make the special pages empty. For the Wanted pages, it is acceptable also. However not all of it emptied out by simply taking out the red links in certain situations. The actor ones for example should be filled however sometimes not everyone can think of an appropriate article for the actor. Like it's been said, sometimes the only thing a person can think of when dealing with the matter is making a stub or worse due to lack of information of the subject at hand. However just because no one doesn't know how to make a proper article for the actor at the moment, doesn't mean that someone else in the future might have an idea.


 * Let's look at this in another way. A character is revealed to be related to Luffy. A user writes this down and even provides a link to this new character. However due to certain situations like lack of information or know how, the user cannot create a proper article for the character. Now because this character is important, more links are made to his page but the page itself is not made for some reason or another. Now more characters related to this one are revealed and linked to but their pages are not made likewise. Now this creates a large number of red links. The pages for these characters are important but nobody does anything about them. Does that mean their red links should be taken out of the Wanted Pages. No because they are in essence wanted. Having them in the special wanted page gives them the chance that somebody would create such a page. Not everyone who comes to the wikia know which articles already exist or which require creation.


 * The likewise can be said for the actor red links. They can be filled but due to the likelihood that they will be stubs, they can't exactly be filled right away by some people. They however belong to the Wanted Page as they can be filled in a later date by people who either have the time or resources.


 * For other red links like those created from Deleted articles, they really aren't that much of a big deal as the pages don't exist. Taking out the red links of them on normal articles is fine but taking out the red links in other areas can be a breach of documentation. I don't really mind that the links in the deletion archives are taken out but it does violate the archival nature of the documents to a certain point.Mugiwara Franky 13:48, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Honnestly your example is purely theoritical and has very few chance to happen in real life. If the character becomes important there are a lot of users that will create the page (and probably several). Even if that happen, I'm not sure a wanted page with 800 links would be the thing that would help them to create the page.
 * Concerning the archives, I don't think the method I used to replace the red links denaturates their contents and they obviously pollute the wanted page since they are clearly not wanted. Plus, the old versions are still available in the history pages if necessary. Kdom 16:40, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * PS : can you answer me for the 1000 links limitation, if it is a problem on my side, I would like to solve it somehow.


 * Even if it is theoretical, it still has a chance of happening especially if the character is of mediocre importance. For a page with 800+ red links, it at least has the chance of being found rather than elsewhere in the wikia. In a wikia of 2000+ plus pages with thousands of words, it can be hard to find a single red link. With a page with red links however it's chances are lower even if it is surrounded by lots of red links.


 * For your method of removing the red links in archives, well it does help I guess so I'm not really against it per say.


 * For the 1000 links limitation, I don't exactly understand what's happening per say. I just saw the problem in Uncategorized files but I don't understand why it's doing that. However, it could be just a cache problem or something. So far at the moment, it doesn't seem to be a problem elsewhere I believe.


 * In any case, the main topic of this discussion which was the deletion of 190+ articles is getting lost in lieu of other matters. So to get back in track here is a summary of what been discussed in relation to the main topic. Please feel free to add anything else that I may have missed.Mugiwara Franky 07:48, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) Articles for the Voice actors are proposed for deletion
 * 2) Articles were suggested to be redirected to Wikipedia instead
 * 3) Accompanying red links to articles are noted also
 * 4) It's noted that Wikipedia could have better versions of the articles on their site than others
 * 5) Total number of articles to be deleted or redirected is 190+ more or less
 * 6) Articles cannot be redirected to Wikipedia as normal redirection just creates a double redirect
 * 7) Suggestion that the current articles should be improved instead just being deleted is proposed
 * 8) In relation to articles, it's proposed that articles related to sciptwriters and animation directors should be deleted as well should the actor articles be deleted
 * 9) It's noted that Wikipedia will not write down the SBS interviews related to One Piece

8. That was fast they nominated for deletion before even created. Not even Japanese Wikipedia has all articles about scriptwriters and episode directors only stub articles about animations directors. Tipota 09:42, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * 4. We all know that Wikipedia has better STUB articles; there is no reason to redirect an existing stub article to another stub article.


 * Let me explain why I support the deletion of most of these articles. I think that separate articles are only useful if they provide information which is not given anywhere else or sum up a lot of various information, like this list. However, most artilces on Voice Actors do not provide any One Piece-related information except that this seiyuu voiced a certain character. However, this list and the article on the character already feature this. The rest of page consicts of the Voice Actor's biography, other roles etc. However, since this information is not related to One Piece, it would be enough to link the page to an article about him or her on wikipedia or at the IMDB. The influence of most Voice Actors is quite small, they can be easily replaced. Only a few articles on those seyuu, who have significantly influenced One Piece, e.g. the ones in the SBS, should be kept. The rest can be deleted. All trivia information on them should be given in this article. It will not "boost" the articles, Here's an example: this page is 5,767 bytes long. Replacing all links with links to Wikipedia will approximately triple it's size, but even with 15,000 bytes it will not reach the Top 50. El Chupacabra 14:56, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * For the actors, it depends on how you perceive them. Without them, the characters cannot be alive to an extent in the anime. Also while they can replaced, some actors cannot be replaced in other areas. The famous voice actor of Jinbei comes to mind. His role can be replaced but his performance cannot. There apparently alot of people who see it that way from what I read.


 * As for this page, there's abit of flaw with moving all the actor SBS and trivia info here and making the whole list a list of links to Wikipedia. For the info, dumping all of it in one page maybe abit unorganized to an extent. Also long pages are not always good pages. You can have an extremely long page talking about random stuff fail to an extremely short almost stubby page that talks straight to the point. For the list, a page made only to be a list of links can be a bit wasteful to an extent. This can be more wasteful if it is a list of links to several outside sources. It's like a double redirect per say. It's saying we present you these actors but you have to go somewhere else to learn about them. If that's the case, why bother making the list in the first place when it serves nothing more than a signpost.Mugiwara Franky 15:25, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, that's exactly what I mean when I say that their influence is small. If a Voice actor dies, he can be replaced with another Voice actor and the series can go on. If One Piece were life action and an actor had died, it would have caused much greater problems. Besides, if you watch a dub you hear differnt voice actors anyway. do you think we should create articles for all the German, French and other Voice Actors as well?


 * I think the we have explained our opinions. Let's start a voting and see what the majority decides. El Chupacabra 17:15, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually it does cause problems like Heath Ledger's death. The main voice the guy was providing was an important role and the guy is renowned for his performance. Selecting a replacement isn't as easy as picking the first actor on the phone list. Voice acting is just as hard work as live acting.


 * For the other dub actors, that idea is a bit going overboard. It falls into the same reason why we don't list down all the German, French, and other dub names of characters. For this wikia, Japanese and English is the most we should go for.


 * As for the voting, you sure kinda picked a huge bundle to be pushed through on the chopping block, the biggest as far as the history of the wikia. As a word of warning though, limit the votes to only the voice actors as proposed above. The suggestion of including the scriptwriters and animation directors was seriously going overboard. You are already asking for 190 articles to be deleted. Adding more articles to such a pile regardless of how much related they are is overboard.Mugiwara Franky 17:45, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe it is possible to find a compromise, like keep the pages which contains some interesting informations (the main voice actors, jinbei voice actor who died recently...) and regroup the ones with few informations (basically the name and birth date) in a single Secondary Voice Actors article. When someone has more info about an actor, it can be moved to a separate page. Since it is possible to redirect to a paragraph of a page, there is no double redirects. This page will keep its purpose which is to find who dubs which characters. Kdom 19:02, February 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * What about creating a Seiyū and Voice Actors wiki? We would copy all these articles to this wiki and link all the lists and character articles to the pages on the new wiki. Other anime wikia could do the same. The seiyu articles on the new wiki can be categorized by series, e.g. Category:One Piece for all voice actors who voiced One piece characters, They should be linked to "their" character pages on the various anime wiki. Since we would be in charge of this wikia, 9 will not occur. What do you think on this idea? El Chupacabra 16:53, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

For the compromise by Kdom, part of it depends from perception different individuals have of which voice actor is more important and how the series is dealing with the voice actors.

a)First perception, some people can say the Jinbei's actor is important because he provides the voices of important people. Others however say that he isn't as he has just provided a few roles for characters that only appeared from time to time. The proof kinda can be seen here in the discussion above regarding the actor. I'm not entirely sure how El Chupacabra feels towards Jinbei's actor, however his comments somewhat gave the vibe that he sees the actor as nothing more than just a voice that can be easily replaced on the dime. I most likely would be wrong I guess but that's what I interpret.

b)Second is how the series deals with the voice actors, some actors are given mundane roles. Others however are given roles that later turn out to be really important. An example would be Franky's voice actor. he originally started out in the series as providing the voices of two arc villains, a secondary role per say. Even the cyborg he provides the voice for started out in a similar way. Later he became part of the main cast the moment Franky accepted to join Luffy's crew.

For the new wiki, that is somewhat bordering to being similar to a sore subject that is kinda part of this wikia's history. The One Piece wikia, part of it was originally created because Wikipedia refused to expand upon the subject in it's own site. One of the main focal point of Wikipedia's nonacceptance was the deletion of a list of attacks in One Piece. The list was later transferred here and distributed properly. While working on this wikia has given some freedom, it however sacrificed some privileges such as more contributors.

Anyway, I kinda find the idea of dumping all the articles somewhere else to be a really deletionist idea. Linking the articles to the another site is no different than linking them to Wikipedia. It will still be the same problem. Also while I have not checked, I believe that there maybe already an wiki for seiyu and other voice actors so we won't exactly be in charged. Furthermore that wikia may treat the One Piece voice actors similarly to how Wikipedia would treat them. They would probably not allow in depth interviews regarding One Piece. If they did, they would have to allow in depth interviews with other series since it covers various other anime. A decision which may not be beneficial especially if there is an actor who likes providing interviews in every series.

So in summary: The compromise of Kdom seems somewhat here and there due to certain factors. The proposal of El Chupacabra for a new wikia is somewhat no different than the plan to delete them all and just link to Wikipedia. Personally, I really can't see eye to eye in some points in this whole discussion.Mugiwara Franky 17:48, February 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the VA wiki would be a better idea, but in the long run thats a lot of work. It wouldn't be just a One Piece wikia, still it does give someone a chance to fluff out things and create a support wikia for all animated shows if it was allowed to be that way. Mass deleting seems silly, some VAs just had one role for an arc and then never have been seen since.


 * May I also suggest if we keep the articles; we can add the voice actors to templates you know in the templates "misc" section. That would solve the orphanage problem we have. One-Winged Hawk 18:15, February 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Mugiwara Franky, I don't understand your b) point. If a voice actor starts to have an important role, he can be transfered from the secondary page to a personal one as soon as we have more info to add. Its not as we decide once for all who belong to it and who doesn't.
 * For the a) point, as you said it's kinda personal, so I'm for the minimum approach, if it has nothing but a few personal information (like name, date of birth...) and the list of the dub character it belong to the secondary voice actor category otherwise we can keep the separate page Kdom February 2, 2010 (UTC)