Forum:SeaTerror

The Fifth Discussion
The fact that this ban forum is going to be reopened for the fifth time, says alot.

Alright, here we go again. ST has made improvements since his last ban, using the edit summary more often. Though sometimes, he ends up going back to his usual self of not trying to communicate with others and undoing without giving a single explanation, multiple times. Let's look at some cases first, shall we.


 * This is the second edit he made that is doing undoing something DragonEmperor added on the exact same page. Sure, DP added it back without explanation either, but that doesn't justify it.


 * Here, we see ST undoing a perfectly fine edit that was reverted by Kaido in the end. The IP literally went to his talk page to ask why he undid his edit, no response was given.


 * ST was in the right here, but even though the guy came to ask him why it was wrong, he was ignored.


 * This (imo) perfectly fine trivia was removed with no explanation given whatsoever.

This is all what I knew of/could trace back the last couple of weeks, though I haven't done a thorough search. Surely there are cases in the more previous weeks.

ST is a valuable editor, but his attitude will not completely change, as shown. He has been banned for this at least five times for these actions, and they still will not stop from happening. I already gave ST a final warning in February telling him that the next time, I would reopen his ban forum. I encourage ST to defend himself and want to remind everyone that according to the ladder, the next step is a six months ban. Feel free to add your own evidences in the discussion below.

Keep in mind, it's not that he has done something terribly wrong, it's that he done minor violations for the so-manieth time. 12:15, June 26, 2016 (UTC)

Discussion
Sounds good. It's hardly the first time we've warned him on this, and his attitude isn't going to change.

12:47, June 26, 2016 (UTC)

This is a yearly occurence at this point. ST does ST things -> ST gets banned -> ST behaves himself for a bit -> ST starts doing ST things again -> ST gets banned again.

Another ban isn't going to change this. Banning him at this point doesn't rly do anything except get him out of our site for however long he's banned. 13:13, June 26, 2016 (UTC)

The rule isn't about having an message in every revert of something. It's about if an edit war starts. So one revert and then leave a summary. Also I just don't respond to messages on my talk page. Maybe 2% of them I have ever responded to. That's just the way I do it in general. The other edit I assumed it was vandalism since that's just not how references work and I assumed a name like that was vandalism. The trivia edit wasn't fine since it was completely stretching. If you want summaries for all edits now then we can just change the rules and leave it at that. SeaTerror (talk) 04:06, June 27, 2016 (UTC)

I'd recommend responding more if people are asking questions about editing, but I don't see anything ban-worthy. I'm pretty sure we've all undone edits without leaving a summary before at some point. As long as it doesn't start edit warring, I don't see a huge issue there. 04:18, June 27, 2016 (UTC)


 * The issue is that ST does start edit wars - often by simply undoing an edit without giving any reason or bothering to reply to his talk page. Either we do literally nothing or we permaban. There's no middle ground on this.


 * 15:46, June 27, 2016 (UTC)


 * This still isn't anywhere near as bad as what got him banned before. This should probably be a warning instead of a straight up ban unless he continues. 00:56, June 28, 2016 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what to think about this one. Multiple people are guilty of doing what he's done, myself included, and he has admittedly gotten better. But the problem is that this behavior has persisted after 6 years here. Will this ban forum be able to fix anything? Will it be better than the multiple immediate bans he got in 2015, and can still get now for continuing bad behavior? I'm afraid I don't really have an answer for that now.

But I would like to say something about ST's post in this forum. He said "Also I just don't respond to messages on my talk page. Maybe 2% of them I have ever responded to. That's just the way I do it in general." That is absolutely unacceptable. How are new users supposed to know why their edit was wrong if you don't ever respond? The lack of communication will just cause newbies to give up on editing, and that is detrimental to the wiki's growth. Now, with the Tyrannosaurus reversion, you said about that, "The other edit I assumed it was vandalism since that's just not how references work and I assumed a name like that was vandalism." Don't assume and actually do a little research. Newbies aren't really that good at references so the fact that they did it wrong doesn't mean they're vandalizing. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 01:48, June 28, 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you are talking about new users then since I do the same to veterans too. It's just laziness or I forget. I can try responding more often. SeaTerror (talk) 08:56, June 28, 2016 (UTC)

First off, I would like to remind the community of this forum from a year and a half ago http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Purpose_of_Ban_Forums In it we decided that if the user is technically not breaking the rules, but the user in question's behavior is detrimental to the well being and growth of the wiki then a ban forum would be put in place. However, if the user in question is clearly violating this wiki's guidelines, then that user is subject to discipline subject to the admin's discretion. Personally I don't think SeaTerror deserves a 6 month ban over something so minuscule (he's a valuable editor and has been with us for 6 years), but maybe a small slap in the wrist is in order (2 to 3 days, maybe even a week block). That way the awc who reported this to AoD in the first place can get some closure and SeaTerror can have another reminder to always write summaries for undoing edits and replying to user talk pages Roranoa Drake II (talk) 16:39, June 30, 2016 (UTC)

As someone that's banned ST more times than I want to remember, I don't think banning him is the best option right now. Personally, I know a short ban will do nothing, and I don't think a permaban should be on the table right now.

However, I do still think this is a serious issue. I totally agree with Kaido that being unresponsive to posts on his talk page is simply unacceptable. It doesn't matter if it's for veterans or new users. And I know ST knows unresponsiveness is against our policies, because he has cited it as a reason to ban Klobis while re-opening Klobis' forum. That's not him agreeing to something someone else posted, but ST opening Klobis' forum for the same issue we're discussing here. ST, why should we hold Klobis to a higher standard than you?

ST's unresponsiveness and lack of communication are a serious problem for both new and veteran editors. It starts edit wars with veterans (though not many recently). And with new editors, he pushes them away. If anyone has the time to check ST's talk page and archive, I'm sure you'd find a vast number of posts by new editors looking to know why he reverted their edit. And I'm sure if you looked at the talk pages of those users, you would find no response from ST. Then if you checked their contributions, you would find that they stopped editing after ST never responded. Just like the guy AOD linked in the beginning of this part of the forum. It's a bit of a jump, but I can all but guarantee that ST's unresponsiveness has cost us at least a handful of potential active editors.

Here's what I think needs to happen: ST needs to improve his behavior or stop being an active content-based editor. If ST can stick to blogs, discussions, and chat then he can't continue to cause problems for us because of editing. The only other option is a permanent ban after he doesn't change his behavior, which is extreme. 18:20, June 30, 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree with JSD. I don't see a point in a "slap on the wrist" ban and he hasn't done anything that would warrant a permaban. If he improves his behavior then we can just leave it at that. 18:36, June 30, 2016 (UTC)

I don't see anything about having to respond to people on the guidebook. If it's an actual policy then we need to add it. SeaTerror (talk) 23:57, June 30, 2016 (UTC)

It's been de facto policy for years, and you know it. You knew it when you wanted Klobis banned for the same thing, and you didn't say anything about having to add it to the rules then. I'm gonna go to the admin's talk pages with a write up of the rule, but since we've been pretty much following it for years, I don't think it not being written down is an issue here.

ST, please address the concerns of the community so that we can move forward or close this. 15:15, July 13, 2016 (UTC)

It hasn't been a policy because if it has then many people other than myself would have broken that. I'm not the only one who has not responded to talk page messages. I'm sure you have done it yourself. Plus you're linking something from three years ago when it definitely wasn't a rule then. Plus the whole Klobis thing was edit wars and not responding about them which definitely is against policy. Also I have already addressed the concerns and have even responded to every talk page message that was left on my talk page after this forum was opened. SeaTerror (talk) 16:44, July 13, 2016 (UTC)