Forum:Nakama Translation

Discussion
OK this is going crazy and nobody starts a proper discussion. Mugiwara Franky won't unlock the page unless we settle this out. So please try to avoid edit war on the episode pages in question too. Basically the question is if Nakama shall be part of terms that we do not translate on the wiki like many other (character names, Devil fruit, attacks, shichibukai...). From what I understand, even if there is no official source, the term Nakama is use in a more particular way than what it is standard in Japanese. Even if it's not the case, my main objection would be that the concept of Nakama cannot be translate in a single word in English. In the episode list the same word is translated as friends, comrade, group, crew... Hence, I'm afraid we loose something. Since everybody knows what Nakama refers too, I don't think it is much a problem to keep it. Kdom 06:28, June 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * The Word has no special meaning whatsoever. That was a misconception started by Kaizoku Fansubs. The word simply means "(Part of a) Group" you use it to refer to members a group or members of a group of Friends just as you would also refer to your coworkers as your "Nakama" in Japanese, even the ones you hate, because they're part of the same group as you. In a Pirate manga, that is your "Crewmates" or your "Crew".
 * The word DOES get used during some high-emotion scenes, but those scenes have just as much high emotion if the word is translated, because it's the weight of the scenes and the character relationships. When Luffy says "NAMI!! OMAE WA ORE NO NAKAMA DA!", you feel for the scene, not because of a word, but because it's the emotional cap on everything they've been through. When Usopp says "I'm leaving the Crew" (crew being "Nakama" in Japanese) you get emotional over the scene because Usopp is leaving after being with them for 200+ episodes, NOT because of the word used.
 * Leaving the word untranslated also has the adverse effect of making the word out to be something it's not, so when characters use it when it has little importance, it ends up seeming like a bigger deal than it really is. Again, case-in-Point, the Davy Back Fight. In the DBF, when you win, you literally "Force" someone to become your "Nakama", and that's the word they use during the arc. Chopper was forced onto their team, and in the anime there was filler where the whole CREW was almost made into Foxy's "Nakama". At no point during these proceedings did anyone say "He/we may be in your crew (Ichimi) but we'll NEVER Be your 'Nakama' Foxy!" They didn't say that, because the word is not given that weight or importance in Japan. Luffy's crew isn't special because they're his "Nakama", they're special because they're HIS Crew.
 * Finally, last case. The General "Pro-Nakama" argument is that, the word "Nakama" means "A Bond Greater than Family" and that's why it can't be translated because there is no word that means that in English. But here's a curious thing. The Whitebeard Pirates. The ENTIRE Manga, crews refer to their crewmates with "Nakama", but the Whitebeard Pirates behave differently, acting like a "Family". They're the first pirate crew in the manga to do that, they even call Whitebeard "Father". Oda did this on PURPOSE. The idea was "The other pirates are only 'Nakama', but we're 'Kazoku' (Family)". That was the point of what happened when Ace and Whitebeard died. All Whitebeard wanted was to create a "Family".
 * If "Nakama" really means a "Bond deeper than Family", why did Whitebeard want a "Family"? Why didn't he want "Nakama"? The Answer is simply because "Nakama" does not mean that. It was a misconception started by Kaizoku Fansubs because they couldn't figure out a nice sounding way to translate Luffy's "NAMI! OMAE WA ORE NO NAKAMA DA!" Line in Arlong Park. dythm, the head of K-F at the time, admitted much later that this was true, and said he himself "expressed concern that the term would get overused" in a news post at their forums, which he reposted to Arlong Park later. But the line is perfectly translatable, Viz did the best job of it IMO, they put "NAMI! YOU'RE ONE OF US NOW!!".
 * The Continued use of the phrase simply spreads the misconception even more. And yes, the EDITORS here know what Nakama means, but this is supposed to be an encyclopedia for OTHER People, and this spreads that false information and confusion to those other people.
 * So that's it, it should be translated, plain and simple. It's not a Name of something, and I think Foxy's ability to "Force" someone to become your "Nakama" and Whitebeard wanting a "Family" proves this. DemonRin 06:52, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Then what about Vivi, when I asked why she was not in the Straw Hat crew, I was answered that she was just a temporary passenger, but she is a "Nakama". The word is more than crew for Luffy since it is both crew and friend. Kdom 07:58, June 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * The way Vivi's scene goes in Japanese is like this:
 * Vivi: "If We Ever Meet again, will you still consider me a part of your crew?!"
 * Technically Vivi is in fact a member of the crew, just not an active member, so the Wiki doesn't consider her one. But that's why Oda drew her with the crew on color spreads and the Anime gave her an eyecatch. Vivi is a member of the crew, just not an active one.
 * That's the reason that scene was so heavy, it was because Vivi wasn't going with them but was still being considered a member of the crew. DemonRin 08:12, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

The Arlong scene perfectly shows why it should stay as Nakama. Arlong calls Nami his "nakama", but it has a completely different meaning than what Luffy feels it means. Nakama has no real translation, it's interpreted differently by different characters. Arlong considers it to just be "someone who works with me", Foxy thinks it as "one of our crew", and Luffy considers it to be a bond deeper than just "on my crew". It should stay as nakama. 166.137.12.57 23:27, June 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * None of those things have anything to do with the word used, it's entirely based on the situation around the word. Luffy Values his Crew, Arlong does not, and Foxy is fine trading them. I'm sorry, I speak Japanese, this word means "Crewmate/Crew". It has no special meaning. The Special bond between the Straw Hats comes from their actual BOND together, the word has absolutely nothing to do with it. That's why they wrote a song called "Family" where the Straw Hats Sing about being "Family", they don't say "Oretachi wa, Nakama" because the word "Nakama" Isn't Strong Enough to define their bond. I mean, if "Nakama" means "A bond deeper than Family", wouldn't calling themselves "Family" be a step back from "Nakama"? And in the same song, there is a line sung by Luffy that goes "Saikou no Nakama Nara, Saikou Ni Tsuyoinda". It translates to "If you have the best of friends, then you can all be the best together!". "Saikou" Is a qualifier of "the best" or "The highest", so in that line, Luffy is saying "The Best of Nakama!". How can there be a "Best of" if the term ALREADY MEANS "A Bond deeper than Family"? Anyone who thinks Nakama "has no real translation" was just brainwashed by Kaizoku Fansubs I'm afraid.


 * I'm sorry, I know this fanbase loves the word, but it's just contributing to the spread if misinformation, and until we stop using it on sites like this, it'll never stop. If the power of the statements in the episode titles is what you're worried about, I'll retranslate them myself to sound better than just "Comrade". But the word NEEDS to be translated to stop people from thinking it means something it doesn't. DemonRin 03:19, June 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * I too believe that the word "Nakama" should stay translated in every case it is used, be it in the episode names, profile pages, character relationships, etc etc. Simply because not all people who visit the site know what the word means; and they could get confused easily, if they stumbled on a term used excessively without knowing it's meaning. This way the average reader of this wikia would have no problems reading this wikia.


 * I also want to note that Kdom is right about the word "nakama" having a more special meaning in the world of One Piece because that's indeed the truth and it's something not seen in other animes (I'm only talking about anime because in a translated manga it's more difficult to notice unless you can comprehend and read it in its raw form). Kaizoku Fansubs did good to make that noticeable by leaving it untranslated but that's not something we should follow as a wikia. MasterDeva 08:35, June 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for agreeing on the issue of whether or not to translate it, but I must still insist that the word has no special meaning in the Manga. I don't read scanlations or the Viz version of this manga, I read it in Raw Japanese. When I started reading One Piece, I was just beginning to learn Japanese, so I bought into the whole "Nakama is A Special Word" misconception myself. As I learned the language, however, and began to read and watch the series untranslated, I realized that was false. dythm of Kaizoku admitted they only came to the decision to leave it untranslated because of difficulty in translating that ONE scene in Arlong Park, and he himself was worried the word would become overused and take on the life it has. I linked it earlier here. This is dythm, the HEAD Of Kaizoku, the group responsible for the Nakama debacle saying this. It's true Luffy has a strong bond with his crew, but that strong bond has nothing to do with the word being used. If that were the case, why would Luffy just throw the word out the way he does sometimes? In Thriller Bark, he asked 3 people to become his "Nakama", Brook, The Cerberus, and was ABOUT to ask that tree before they stopped him. He hadn't gone through ANYTHING with them, he had no bond with Brook (yet), he had no bond with the Cerberus, and he ESPECIALLY had no bond with that tree, they had just met. He asked them to become his "Nakama" simply because they were all cool looking and he wanted them on his "Crew", because that's what the word means. The weight the word seems to have doesn't come from the word being used, it comes from the bond Luffy shares with his crew in particular. THAT is where the weight comes, not from a word but from the writing of the story and the way the characters interact, and frankly it insults the story writing to say you need a special word to communicate that.
 * Again, Luffy wouldn't just throw the term around as loosely as he did during Arlong Park if he really believed it had that kind of meaning. He loves and trusts his crew because they're his FRIENDS, not because of a word.DemonRin 12:02, June 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for responding DemonRin and for providing further argumentation to this subject. First I'd like to say that I've read your complete message earlier before posting my response (having checked the AP link too of course) and I'll say that just because Kaizoku Fansubs kept the term "nakama" untranslated; regardless of whether they had difficulty with it or not, doesn't change it from what it has become in the anime.


 * As for Luffy using the term so loosely actually is just Luffy being himself; he would get mad if someone badmouthed or hurt his friends but being the airhead he is, he has trouble behaving seriously in serious or 'not so' moments, keeping secrets (or telling lies for that matter) and overall he is the type of person who will act first and think afterwards.


 * You shouldn't be bothered with what Luffy says most of time though unless its one of his moments of enlightenment or he enters serious mode. ;D As for the word itself insulting the story I'll have to disagree with that BUT I do agree that the one think that describes the bonds between Luffy's companions and friends are their feelings towards each other and not just any word or two. Just my honest opinion. ^_^ MasterDeva 14:04, June 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, you still haven't addressed any of the issues I've brought up, but regardless, arguing with MasterDeva over the proper meaning of Nakama is moot at this point. Regardless of what he thinks of the word in general, he agrees with me that it should be translated here. It'd be dumb to further argue with my ally. Does anyone else care to chime into the issue? Maybe even the guy I got into the initial edit war with in the first place? I don't think the opinions of 3 name members and one unregistered member count as a "consensus".DemonRin 21:43, June 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm strongly in favor of using Nakama. The problem is that, within the context of One Piece, there is no single translation for "nakama". If you want to use it as "friend", then how do you explain Arlong calling Nami her Nakama? If you want to use it as "crewmate", then what point does any of the stuff with Vivi have? If there was one single translation that you wanted to choose, that'd be fine, but the problem is that translations for it are all over the place. The word itself speaks more volumes than "fellow" or "crew" ever does. The Pope 00:32, June 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * "Friend" and "Crewmate" both work. The point was Arlong using the word the same way as Luffy, even though Arlong does not think of Nami as really being his "Friend" he referred to her with the word ANYWAY. That's why there was a part where he said "She's a valuable asset, I mean, she's my friend (Nakama)" The POINT was that Arlong was calling her a part of his "crew" when she clearly isn't. And I already explained Vivi. "If we ever meet again, will you still consider me a part of this crew?!" The point of that scene, which everyone apparently missed thanks to Nakama being left untranslated, was that Vivi wanted to know if she was still a member of the crew even though she wasn't going with them. The answer was yes, Vivi is still a Straw Hat, always will be. If you notice, all the people in favor of keeping it untranslated are the people who DON'T know Japanese and are drawing this "Deeper meaning" for the word from the FANSUBS. I watch this series Raw and I own volumes 1-53 of the manga in Raw Japanese, and that's the way I read it. The Word. Nakama. Has. No. Special. Meaning. It means "Part of a group". In a Pirate Manga, that's usually your crew. Any special meaning comes from the character relationships themselves, not the word being used. I'm sorry, I know this fanbase is attached to the word, but it's a fact.DemonRin 09:56, June 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * Point taken DemonRin, you don't have to repeat it to make it any more clear. I believe though you are taking it this a tiny bit more stubbornly than you should. Yes you are right that the One Piece fanbase has a strong attachment to the word Nakama (and that most of the times tend to not see things clearly if I may add) but don't you think that sometimes a certain meaning or word can become special because of the circumstances surrounding it!? The word itself doesn't have any special meaning and the definition that you gave is indeed accurate, because in their daily conversations Japanese use it casually from what I recall.


 * You know, you could see it from that point too. In the world of One Piece that we see through Luffy's and the Straw Hat Pirates side that one word is important! That's another way to use to approach something differently. As long as we can agree on what's the best we can do from our side to better help the visitors who are reading this wikia, I don't see any other problem we need do discuss about. MasterDeva 11:31, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

This Wikia does not use official sources for titles. If you want a wikia that does that then go to the Naruto wikia. Nakama is a term used by many One Piece fans and should remain regardless of what a single person wants. SeaTerror 16:56, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

Rin is just running things in circles, so let's try to bring some sense into this.

As it stands, it seems like everyone (the five other people who posted here) are in favor of Nakama, while Rin is alone on not using Nakama. I think this should go by majority rule, but to avoid assumptions, let's run this by the book.

(Poll move at the bottom of the discussion)


 * No, MasterDeva said he believes it has the "super special meaning" (That isn't really there) too, but that he feels we should translate it here to avoid confusion with anyone who doesn't watch fansubs. (If I read his posts correctly)
 * Avoiding spreading the misconception is only ONE reason to fix this, Avoiding confusion in people not in the know is another. Sure WE all know what the word means, Kaizoku shoved this bit if misinformation down our throats. But anyone new to the series coming here to look for information will be confused when they come and see something that isn't a proper noun left in Japanese.
 * Heck, "Devil Fruit" is a proper noun, and this Wikia translates it. "Pirate King" is a proper noun, and the "Pirate" section translates it as "Pirate King" rather than leaving it in Japanese. "Whitebeard", "Blackbeard" and "Straw Hat" are proper nouns, but Newgate, Teach, and Luffy's sections don't refer to them as "Shirohige", "Kurohige" and "Mugiwara". Why should "Nakama", a word that means "Crew" and is not even a proper noun take precedence in the "Untranslated" department over those ACTUAL proper nouns?DemonRin 15:48, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

I can tell you know absolutely nothing about fansubbing. The majority of fansubs leave some Japanese words untranslated. Usually attacks and honorifics.Nobody would be confused about it. They would just look up the word if they didn't know it and be fine with it. Also if you noticed only Devil Fruit is translated and none of actual fruits are translated. SeaTerror 19:12, June 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * I am a fansubber, I do Hellsing. But "Nakama" is not an attack, and is not an honorific. It's a normal Japanese word.DemonRin 23:05, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

Read all of my comment before you respond next time. The majority of fansubs leave some Japanese words untranslated. Not to mention you ignored the part about nobody getting confused. SeaTerror 01:53, June 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Considering I know several people who were confused at "Nakama" at first, and the fact that I myself started on this series before I knew Japanese and I Was confused, I think when you say "nobody" got confused, you're dead wrong.
 * EVERYBODY knows what a Pirate CREW is, even the people who believe the Nakama Lie. But not everyone knows what a "Nakama" is. And it's not a Proper noun, there is no legitimate reason other than "This is what the fansubbers told us and we got used to it so we prefer that now". If it was a proper noun, or it was legitimately untranslatable, I'd understand the notion of leaving it untranslated. But it's neither of those things. It means "Crew". And I'm very VERY against continuing the Nakama Lie, we should kill it so nobody else falls prey to it.DemonRin 14:49, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Just gonna add some viewpoints. Don't know if I'm repeating things since I've only scanned certain points. From what I understand Nakama is a Japanese word that can mean lots of things depending on the context it used in. When used by Arlong, it can mean co-worker or co-conspirator. When used by Luffy, it can mean friend. Either way, regardless of who's using it, how it's used remains the same. It is often used to denote someone who is close to another in one way or another.

For fansubs not translating Nakama, I believe it's not exactly their fault for not translating the word due to certain circumstances. It's probably also not their intent to spread the "lie" as so put. However, considering the context of the word, it's not hard for some people to see it as something special. Saying that it should be completely wiped out, is a bit over extreme to a point.

For translating Nakama, it's true that it has multiple meanings and some deeper context to an extent, however using it in everyplace may not be a good idea to a certain extent. I'm not saying completely follow the Funi or 4kids translations, but at least use some restraint in some areas. Saying that it should be used everywhere and everytime due to fansubs and such, is also a bit over extreme to a point.

For my stand on the whole matter, I'd say I'm pretty much neutral. As I see it, the use of Nakama can be okay due to the context, however it should be used in moderation as it is indeed a foreign word to most English speakers.Mugiwara Franky 17:15, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Well...now that the lock on the page has passed, and everyone has put their word in, it seems that the majority is in favor of keeping it as Nakama.

Unless you have any last statements on the matter, I'll be reverting it. The Pope 02:19, June 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Umm, just because the time of the lock had ended doesn't necessarily mean the discussion is over. And although the poll says one thing, from what I see from the discussion, there's still no consensus.Mugiwara Franky 07:29, June 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes especially since the poll is a bias way to not answer Demonrin arguments. Also from what I conclude of the discussion, there are some titles where Nakama shall be translated (Gaimon episode in particular) Kdom 07:41, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

It seems that most of us disagree with Demonrin, that Nakama DOES have particular significance within the realm of One Piece. The Pope 15:29, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I still don't understand on what grounds you have come to that conclusion. It seems to have everything to do with your conditioning and your bias from watching Fansubs that keep it untranslated for years. But look at the poll that you yourself were defending as the reason for consensus. It's tied 6 to 6. Plus, Mugiwara Franky and Kdom just above here don't seem to be dead-set on "Always leave it untranslated", they are talking about translating it SOMETIMES if not doing away with the Nakama Lie entirely. We have clearly not reached consensus yet at all.DemonRin 16:12, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd like to throw in my own two cents. As Rin mentioned, a LOT of confusion about the series seems to come from the fansubs. Kaizoku-Fansubs has really twisted the perceptions on people's mentalities on what has "special meanings" and what doesn't. Watching the fanbase from a distance, I'm seeing a lot of people taking way too many liberties in their belief that the Japanese language in One Piece has magical, special meanings behind them. They don't. "Nakama" in an anime relating to pirates generally refers to crewmembers or being part of a group. There is no ifs, ands or buts about it. Trying to claim it's anything but is a gross error. You people do the SAME THING with virtually every other term in the series that it's getting to the point where English takes a back seat to all of the Japanese that flies around in these translations. Everyone continues to translate the Navy as "Marines" even though the word Oda uses in Japanese translates to Navy, everyone keeps calling the Devil Fruits by their Japanese names, EVEN WHEN STATING THEY HAVE A TRANSLATION, and everyone keeps leaving the Japanese names for groups untranslated.
 * It is literally an absolute mess. And it baffles my mind when people throw these terms around, get offended when someone corrects them about these terms have NO magical properties about them, and then act like the fansubs are always correct. I'm sorry, but they aren't. You know something is wrong when you see fansubs and scanlations throwing the word "fuck" around and all sorts of obscenities into the dialogue and try to write those off as "translations." The fansubbing community is WRONG and has always been wrong. "Nakama" has no special meaning at all. Neither does half of the crap you people you like to claim does. You only believe they do because it's a language different from yours and some of you are too big of simpletons to get the idea that the idea of calling someone your friend can be taken in different ways depending on how emotion placed behind it. It's the scene itself and the way characters are using it. Not the word. Seriously, One Piece is one of the only anime I see these days where the fanbase stupidly continues to leave in Japanese words, even when there are suitable translations. You people may as well write the subtitles in pure Japanese at this rate. Tsukento out.98.211.163.77 16:42, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Well I suppose, marines are called marines because it is written like that on every ship. And what is this unnecessary animosity ? There are very few things which are let untranslated in the wiki only the proper nouns which is standard to not translated ie Kdom 20:27, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * people name (also the occidental surnames are often used when they refer to existing pirates),
 * the name of the Devil Fruit (btw Akuma no Mi is never used, else it is a mistake),
 * the names of the organisations (I don't see the problem, you don't translate the name of a company, that's the same here).

I can tell you watch nothing other than One Piece then. 1) Many fansubs leave Japanese words untranslated. Not just in One Piece.

2) If Oda wanted it to be Navy then he would not have EVERYTHING in the manga say Marine.

3)Nobody cares if there is a proper translation for names in many series. Not just One Piece. Many wikia's use Japanese names instead of English versions. There's a reason why Soul Reaper is not used on the Bleach Wikia. SeaTerror 23:03, June 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Regardless of his feelings on the matter, you guys just named several legitimate reasons to leave something untranslated: If it is a proper noun.
 * Nakama is not. It is not the name of something at all. The heightened status the word has comes entirely from the fans, it has no such meaning in Japanese, and the Japanese fanbase (who read the series like I do, Raw) understand the weight of those scenes perfectly despite the fact that the normal unassuming Japanese word "Nakama" is being used.
 * The General argument for not translating Nakama is "a word like 'friend' or 'crewmate' is too weak and unassuming to convey what Luffy means when he says it". To the people reading this series in Japan, it's original target audience, they're seeing Luffy use a normal, weak, unassuming word. In Japan, you use "Nakama" to refer to your coworkers, even the ones you hate, because the word doesn't refer to the bond between anyone, it simply refers to "A group" or "Members of a group". It was Oda's intent to use such an unassuming word, because his writing is good enough so that the feelings of Luffy and his crew are communicated regardless of the word being used. And what's more, it's used specifically as an unassuming word because when Whitebeard's crew starts to refer to each other as "Family" you're SUPPOSED to feel that Whitebeard and his crew use terminology Stronger Than what Luffy and his crew use. Oda did that on Purpose. Whitebeard's crew is supposed to treat each other like a "Family" and that's supposed to have more weight than "Nakama". That's the point of Whitebeard's dream. He didn't want any mere "Nakama", he wanted a "Family". If the fans treat the word as though it means "A Bond deeper than Family", where is the logic in what Whitebeard wanted? If "Nakama" truly means that, why does he want a "Family" when he could have "Nakama"? The answer is that the word does Not have any deeper meaning, and Oda, the author, did that On Purpose. We should preserve the intent of the author, and not elevate the word, and let the actions of the characters speak louder than the words.DemonRin 01:30, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Whitebeard's aside the point; just because he wanted a family and not Nakama doesn't make Nakama not important. He didn't want a "crew", or "friends"; he wanted a family. That's why it's significant.

Anyway, I'm with what Kdom said earlier; I believe that we should leave Nakama alone as is in most areas, but for some episode titles, such as with Gaimon, it's okay to translate it. It's just idiotic to translate it 50 different ways to fit the situation; if we're going to do that, we might as well leave it as "Nakama", if it encapsulates all of those meanings. The Pope 04:39, June 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Earlier you were ready to go with the Poll results. What happened to that?
 * We could just translate it as "Friends" or "Friend" on pretty much every count and it will fit the context of what's going on, at least for the episode titles. "The Friends' Whereabouts", "Gaimon and his Amazing Friends", "All for the sake of protecting my Friends", "Nami is my Friend!".
 * And Hey, I just saw you change some of them. I'm reverting it, we aren't done discussing it yet I don't think.DemonRin 05:03, June 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I reverted it because anonymous users are changing it without inputting discussion. And "friends" doesn't work with stuff involving Foxy and Arlong. The Pope 05:10, June 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Look, I just reverted it back to the way it was when Mugiwara Franky first locked it. Your rationale was "Popular Vote" when you put all the "Nakama"s back. Look at the vote now. Translate it is the clear winner. So if that was your rationale for changing it in the first place, we should just go with what the true consensus is now no? Also, I just checked all the episode titles that feature the word "Nakama" and Foxy and Arlong's crews are never mentioned in them, so that argument is moot. If you guys want, I will personally go through and re-translate and rewrite every single one to sound right. Would that make you happy? As for what to put for the time being, the Nakama situation should stay the way it was when Mugiwara Franky first locked it until the discussion here is done. That was the point of him locking it, and he said up there that just because it's unlocked now does not mean discussion is over.DemonRin 05:16, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I just re-translated every episode with Nakama in it up to some of the most recent. I alternated between using "Friend" and "Crewmate/Crew" and it works out perfectly.
 * 043 - The Fall of the Fishman Empire! Nami is One of Us!
 * 102 - Ruins and Lost Ones! Vivi, Friends, and the State of a Country.
 * 104 - Luffy Vs. Vivi! The Tearful Oath Between Friends
 * 114 - Swear on the Dreams of your Friend! Combat at Molehill 4th Avenue
 * 234 - To a Friend's Rescue! Raid Franky House
 * 252 - The Steam Whistle Splinters the Crew! The Sea Train Starts Up!
 * 256 - To Rescue our Friends! The Solemn Vow that Unites Foes!
 * 273 - Everything to Protect My Friends! Gear 2nd: Start Up!
 * 278 - Say You Wanna Live! We Are Friends!!
 * 281 - Tears That Wove The Bonds of Friendship! Nami's World Map!
 * 283 - All for my Friends' Sake! The Darkness Deep Inside Robin!
 * 377 - My Friends' Pain is My Pain, Zoro Fights Ready to Die.
 * 379 - Brook's Past - Sad Farewell to the Cheerful Crew
 * 381 - A New Crewmate! - The Musician, "Humming Brook".
 * 384 - Brook's Hard Struggle - The Difficult Path to Becoming a True Crewmate?
 * 405 - Disappearing Crewmates - The Final Day of the Straw Hat Crew.

The rest are all "The Crew's Whereabouts" and that works perfectly for all of them. So as you can see, it's not "Idiotic" and doesn't take translating it "50 different ways" to do this. After this silliness is behind us, I also wana go through EVERY episode title and re-translate all the mistakes. Can we agree that these look good and just go with them? The Poll shows a clear victor right now...DemonRin 05:45, June 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * But see? That's the problem; you can't just go between "crew" and "friend". The point I'm trying to make that if there isn't a clear-cut translation for the term, then it should be left untranslated. You've seen so yourself, that "friend" doesn't work in some occasions, and "crewmate" doesn't work in others either. There is no single word to interpret the wide scope of the meaning of the word except for the word itself, "Nakama". The Pope 06:29, June 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * That argument is extremely flimsy and doesn't hold any water at all because you could make that same claim about ANY word in the Japanese language.
 * "Tasukete" means "Help", "Save" or "Rescue". In Arlong Park, Nami looks at Luffy and says "Luffy... Tasukete..." which is "Luffy... Help me...". While in Enies Lobby, Luffy says "Oretachi wa Robin wo Tasukete!" or "We're gonna go Save Robin!". Just like here, you can mix the terms up, but "Luffy... Save me" sounds awkward in the place of Arlong Park, and "We're gonna help Robin!" sounds weak and out of place in Enies Lobby. So does that mean we now have to leave "Tasukete" in Japanese because it has no one clear meaning? "So Luffy and the crew headed out to Tasukete Robin".
 * And then there's the 100s of different ways to say "I/me" in Japanese that don't translate properly over to English AT ALL. "Ore" = super informal male, Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, Usopp and Chopper use it. "Atashi" is feminine, Nami uses it. "Watashi" is respectful and Gender-neutral, Robin uses it. "Boku" is a more respectful masculine way of saying it, Usopp DISTINCTLY Switches to this when he's Sogeking. It's a very marked change in his speech pattern. Translating all of this over into English and preserving the meaning is literally impossible, not a single official translator, official or not, tries to carry this over, it would be impossible. This is literally an untranslatable set of terms, should we start leaving these untranslated? "Robin! Ore will Tasukete You now!"
 * Then there's "You". The Japanese word for "You" is exactly the same as "I/Me". "Omae" is informal male, and is used by all the boys on the crew. "Anta" is informal feminine, Nami uses it. "Anata" is gender-neutral respectful, Robin Uses it. "Kimi" is masculine informal, Usopp switches to it when he's Sogeking. Again, Literally IMPOSSIBLE to translate this. So now let's look at our sentence: "Robin! Ore Will Tasukete Omae now!".
 * Not enough? Howabout: "Dame", "Umi", "Yarou", "Kisama", Hell KAIZOKU (Pirate) is a word that has distinctly different meanings and weight to it depending on who is using it. When Kuro or Bellamy talks about being "Kaizoku" they have a distinctly different definition of the term than when Luffy or Blackbeard talks about it. The World Government also has a distinctly different view on what makes a "Kaizoku". It's the EXACT same situation as Nakama now that I think about it. Everyone in the series uses it, but it always has different weight to it. Like in Drum when Luffy defended Hiruluk's Pirate Flag. Saying it was a symbol that stood for more than Wapol could ever understand. There's even a part where Buggy defines "Kaizoku" as being people who search for treasure, Nami defines a Kaizoku as a ruthless criminal whom she hates, and Luffy Defines a "Kaizoku" as "Someone who is Free on the Ocean!". The word is easily translatable, just like Nakama, but when characters use it, they all have DISTINCTLY different views on what makes a "Kaizoku". Should we leave THAT untranslated too? How far must we take this?
 * However, It only took TWO different Synonyms for the same word in order to properly translate "Nakama", it's far easier to translate than MOST other Japanese words. And it's NOT a proper noun. But if you must nitpick like that, then I'll simply rewrite them so they ALL Read with either "Crewmate" or "Friend", because that is entirely possible too.DemonRin 08:25, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, this seems to be clearly getting to be much more heated than it needs to be based on some words spoken. Please remember that this is supposed meant to be a discussion on how to better the wikia in an orderly manner. Both sides have presented arguments however if one or both sides can't cool down for a bit and be polite then nothing's gonna be understood less be achieved.Mugiwara Franky 09:57, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

Uh...in all of those instances, Kaizoku still meant pirate. And having multiple Japanese words mean the same English word is the exact opposite of the problem going on right now. But MF is right; we do need some kind of compromise.

I'm in favor of leaving most of it as "Nakama", but translating only the few where it doesn't seem to mesh as well, such as with Gaimon and whatnot. The Pope 14:54, June 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, I don't see where it was getting "Heated" but I'll choose my words more carefully I guess. The Idea of that wasn't "Look, multiple Japanese words that all mean the same thing" it was "These words are literally untranslatable, because translating them over to "I" or "Me" loses the underlying meaning in them. Usopp specifically switches his speech style when he becomes Sogeking and starts using "Boku" instead of "Ore. And the rest of them are all gender-specific. Ore is for Guys, Atashi is for Women, Watashi is Gender neutral. There is no way to translate that, at all. But we DO translate that word. And you ignored when I brought up "Tasukete" (Help, Rescue, or Save) and that one is pretty much the same exact issue as Nakama.
 * I know it's hard to ignore the word since you've been told by the fansubbers for so long that it has this deeper meaning that makes it untranslatable, it's hard to step back and take an objective look at the situation after all that time and conditioning.
 * But seriously, I know you dismissed it but "Kaizoku" DOES have the same thing going for it.
 * With Nakama, the general argument is that "Everyone in the series uses the term differently".
 * Arlong, Kuro and Moria treat their "Nakama" like pawns and don't think much of the word.
 * Foxy sees his like trading cards and identifiers of status and uses the DBF to try to get more to look better.
 * Luffy sees his cremates as being his best friends and most faithful partners.
 * With Kaizoku:
 * Buggy, Kuro, and Krieg see it as a term for those who lust for power and treasure.
 * The World Govt. Sees "Kaizoku" as criminals which must be expunged
 * Luffy, Usopp, Hiruluk, and Chopper see the pirates as a noble group who go to the sea and have no regrets.
 * Just like "Nakama" there are powerful scenes where the word is used. Specifically the scene when Wapol called himself a "Kaizoku" and attacked Hiruluk's flag. That pissed Luffy off and prompted a speech from him about what a Kaizoku TRULY is. Luffy has never had a "This is what a Nakama REALLY is" speech, not even when Foxy almost succeeded in literally Forcing Chopper to become his "Nakama". In fact, this very Wikia has a section on "Pirates" and it flat out states that "Pirates" isn't entirely accurate to describe them because "Pirates" and "Privateers" are often lumped together. Look
 * "Privateers and pirates are often grouped together as one and the same. The only real difference was that privateers can be consider hired "pirates", who were contracted to work for their governments against other nations on the seas, and were generally allowed to do anything they wanted so long as they did not attack their own countries ships. Pirates however, work for no one and worked on their own accords. In One Piece, the Shichibukai are based on "Privateers", however the Straw Hats themselves have done actions that would fall into this classification as well; such as helping Alabasta against Crocodile (orginally Nami only agreed to protect Vivi for a price)."
 * So what are the Straw Hats? Are they "Pirates" or are they "Privateers"? If there is no clear classification for what a "Kaizoku" is, does that mean it too should be left untranslated? The answer is no, we translate it. I could literally apply the same logic you're using in favor of "Nakama", that it doesn't have one, clear cut translation, to Any word in the Japanese language when translating. "Tatakai" means a "Physical Fight" or "Battle", it's used very often in One Piece, but it also can refer to a verbal argument, those two aren't exactly the same thing. Just like a "Crewmate" and a "Friend" are the same but with different weight and inflection, a "Physical Fight" and an "Argument" are two distinctly different things. "Yarou" is a derogatory term usually translated as "Bastard" or "Asshole". But when Luffy wants to rally his crew, he shouts "Oi, Yarou domo!" to rally them, and in that circumstance you'd translate it as "Hey you guys!" because obviously Luffy is not insulting them. Heck, then there's "Takara" which is the Japanese word for "Treasure". JUST Like Nakama, it can refer to different things and characters in this series have VASTLY different vies on what you consider your "Takara" or "Treasure". Nami sees it as valuable stuff, Luffy sees his Hat as treasure, that guy in Alabasta saw his Dance Powder as treasure, Gaimon saw his Animals as his treasure. There was even a scene where this became an issue, when Buggy tore Luffy's hat and he went "My Takara!" and Buggy said "Takara isn't something like a hat, Takara is Gold, & Jewels!"
 * A rule in translation has to be universal. The rule here is; it gets left untrnaslated if it's a proper noun. That rule makes sense and works for literally everything left untranslated on this Wikia because they're ALL proper nouns. Except Nakama, it's the only one that isn't. And the rule you apply to Nakama to keep IT untrnanslated can't work because you can't apply it universally, because literally every word in this language doesn't translate over perfectly. If that were the case then Google Translate and Babelfish would actually WORK most of the time. The only reason it gets applied to Nakama is because people are biased to that word, and that's not grounds to leave something untranslated.DemonRin 18:44, June 21, 2010 (UTC)

I agree entirely with DemonRin. It just seems the only arguments for leaving the word untranslated are fueled by emotions based on misinformation. Whether the word is special or not (I say it's not), the tight knit relationship between the crew members is obvious regardless of the language used. Bji22 02:12, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

The problem with that argument is that Kaizoku can 99.9% of the time always be translated to English as "Pirate", whereas Nakama has no single translation that works on every occasion, hence why it should be left as is if no single translation can be found. The Pope 03:55, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * You keep ignoring me when I say "You could make that exact same argument about every single word in the Japanese language".DemonRin 04:24, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * The only other examples you've given are words like "Kaizoku" that you could almost make the argument that it can have different meanings but all of those translate to "Pirate", and when one English word can have many Japanese translations, but that's the inverse point. The Pope 04:50, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Are you selectively reading my posts? "Yarou" means "Asshole" or "Bastard", in fact, that's what Chopper says when he does his "I won't be happy if you compliment me asshole!" line.  Luffy uses it to rally the crew, watch when he is talking about shipping off, he says "Oi Yarou Domo!".  He's not calling THEM assholes, he's saying "Hey you guys!".  It cannot be translated the same way in both situations because one is supposed to be an insult, and the other is just Luffy being like "Hey Guys!"  If you used "Guy" as an insult it'd be like "You... Guy...", doesn't work does it?  And Luffy... "Hey, Get ready Assholes!"... very out of character for him isn't it?
 * And you keep reading exactly the wrong meaning when I bring up the ways to say "I/me". The fact that there are many of them has NOTHING to do with the point I'm trying to make.  It comes entirely from the MEANING behind them.  They all have a meaning that cannot be translated into English AT ALL.
 * Let's just focus on ONE Of them since every time I bring up more than one, you throw that back at me. Boku.  Boku means "I/me" but it is a specifically masculine way of saying it.  Usopp makes a MARKED effort to switch it speech style to use that when he's Sogeking.  It's a very noticeable character trait for Sogeking when you watch the series in Japanese.  That whole situation is literally untranslatable.  That is the point.  Not that there are several different ways to say it, but that the inflection behind them are Literally impossible to translate.  Just like you are claiming "Nakama" is.  Let me repeat this, because I don't want you going "But it's multiple Japanese words with just one English meaning" again.  I'm Not talking about there being many words.  I am Only talking about the fact that they all have a Deeper Meaning that the dictionary definition simply cannot convey, which is pretty much the major defense of leaving Nakama untranslated.
 * Want more examples of Japanese words that have no clear translation? "Saikyo". It means "Strongest", "Greatest", "Best", "Highest".  It can refer to the strength of a person, so "Strongest" is how it should be translated there.  But it can ALSO be used to talk about the best work someone did, or the best built boat, or the highest up location.  "Strongest" does NOT work there, it has a completely different meaning.  Then you'd say "Highest Quality" or "Best", because "Strongest" doesn't work anymore.  And you can't say "He has the best strength" when talking about someone's strength.  I mean, who goes "Yeah, you have the best strength out of all of us!"  Not only are you still altering the term (You're still adding the word "Strength" to the equation) but NOBODY talks like that!  When talking about a person's strength you translate "Saikyo" as "The Strongest" and when you're talking about something like a boat, like "Thousand Sunny-Go wa Saikyo Fune!" you'd translate that as "The Thousand Sunny is the Greatest ship".  When the Straw Hats are crossing the Red Line, Luffy says "Saiyko no Umi!  Gurando Rain!"  or "The Greatest Ocean!  The Grand Line!".  "Strongest" doesn't work, the ocean itself has no strength, and never fights the other oceans.  you can't say that.  "Best" doesn't even work, it's too weak sounding for the Grand Line.
 * Then there's the famous "Hige". As in from "Shirohige", "Kurohige" (Whitebeard, Blackbeard). The term doesn't actually mean "Beard", it means "Facial Hair"  they have no word to denote the difference between a mustache and a beard.  So you translate it differently based on the situation.  If there was a line where a man had an interesting mustache, and the characters were like "Kono otoko no Hige wo mitte!" or "Look at that guy's Mustache!", but if the same scene happened but the guy had no Mustache, only a beard, you'd translate it as "Beard".  I mean, "Whitebeard" isn't actually accurate, he has no beard.  Should we change it to the "White Facial Hair" Pirates?  No, because that would be ridiculous.
 * Do I need to tell you more, or do you get what I'm saying yet? This Language is FULL of things that don't always translate over the same way at all.  I don't know why you seem to think this isn't the case.  I mean, I actually know this language... I took 3 years of formal lessons...DemonRin 05:31, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Buh you are a bit unfair Demonrin provide many example beside Kaisoku and it becomes more and more difficult to defend the point beside the fact that it is a word we have come to like. I don't blame the fansub for that, they did not brainwash me it's just the normal way the different languages interact with eachother ( Well 50% of english words are based on french after all), I will continue to use it in the forum but based on the point which have been made in the discussion I think we should translate it in articles. Kdom 06:25, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Have we ever had problems with translating stuff like "saikyo" and that whole boku thing? Again, that doesn't matter if there are multiple ways in Japanese to say "I"; it's still "I". That's aside the point.
 * The only other example I can see that can actually be put into play (aside from Kaizoku, which, again, always translates to Pirate, is the "hige" thing. It's true that it technically means "facial hair"; however, "BlackFacialHair" and the like sounds kinda off, and since there were actual pirates named "Blackbeard" and the like, translations went with beard.
 * While you bring up some valid points, the problem is that we never have problems with any of these; when they have to be translated for use in the wiki, there's almost always a single translation to use. That's not the case with Nakama; there's no single translation that works. It's not just that "we stupid people who watched the fan sub think Nakama is special"; it's that there's no direct translation that perfectly gives the meaning of the word. "Friend" and "Crew" are not always interchangeable. Whether you think the word is special or not is aside from the point; the bottom line is that if a word can not be directly translated, then it should be left as is. The Pope 06:33, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * But the word can EASILY be translated. There is no translation issue whatsoever.  "Mustache" and "Beard" are not always interchangeable. And there really is a pirate called "Blackbeard", but there isn't one called "Whitebeard".  And he doesn't have a beard, he has a Mustache, but we don't call him "WhiteMustache".  There are also times when the word is used and it has nothing to do with Newgate or Teach.  As for Saikyo, it doesn't matter if nobody has ever raised a translation issue, nobody has because nobody ever thought to.  It is STILL a word that has no one clear-cut translation in English. Just like 75% of the language. Just like Nakama.  It's the exact same situation as Nakama, you only see a difference because you have an emotional attachment to the word "Nakama" but not "Saikyo".  And... Ok, WHY did you say "Again, that doesn't matter if there are multiple ways in Japanese to say "I"; it's still "I". That's aside the point."?!?!  I went Out of my way to make sure I was clear.
 * The fact that there are 5 different ways to say I is not the point I am trying to make with that.
 * The fact that there are 5 different ways to say I is not the point I am trying to make with that.
 * The fact that there are 5 different ways to say I is not the point I am trying to make with that.
 * And again The fact that there are 5 different ways to say I is not the point I am trying to make with that.
 * The Point is those words have a Very distinctly different set of meanings that Literally cannot be translated. "Boku" doesn't just mean "I".  It is a masculine form and is more respectful than "Ore".
 * I think you refuse to take a step back and look at "Nakama" from an objective viewpoint, I think you've been watching fansubs too long to be able to see that the word is perfectly translatable. That is where the problem with Nakama COMEs from.  Fans have been seeing it in their fansubs for so long, and have been told for so long that the word has this deep meaning that they cannot separate that emotional response from fact.  Just ask yourself, if they'd ALWAYS translated Nakama and never left it untranslated, would you feel about it the way you do now?  Would you even haven noticed the word from any of the several other Japanese words?  And would you have lost anything from the experience?  Would Luffy and his crew's journey have somehow been weaker because you aren't reading "Nakama" in the subtitles?  Because if that is the case, then you must not have much faith in Oda's writing.DemonRin 06:48, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Well so much for your "The Poll shows a clear victor right now" comment. The whole point about using nakama in episode titles is that this wikia uses fansub titles and not official titles. Yet you never complained about that when arguing to use official titles. Nakama has always been used on this wikia and it should remain so. SeaTerror 07:26, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but "The fansubs did it" and "This is how it's always been" are poor arguments. Fansubs flub translations more often than people would want to believe.  And if we went with what has "always been used" then we should go back to calling Bon Kurei "Bon Clay" because before Oda showed his wanted poster in the Meet Baroque Works cover story, EVERYBODY, including K-F, translated his name as "Bon Clay".  That's what has "Always been used" for the vast majority of the time before we knew his name was "Bon Kurei".  Same With Oars, we'd still be calling him "Odz" if we didn't get with the times and change when new information is presented.  So clearly, just because something has "Always been used" doesn't make it any less wrong and that it shouldn't be corrected eventually.DemonRin 09:38, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Gonna have to agree with some of DemonRin's arguments to an extent. Fansubs may allow us to experience Japanese anime in a way that some official English companies are restricted from doing, but fansubs too have their faults as any other subbing company.Mugiwara Franky 11:30, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * While I'm not saying that fansubs are god and official translations are the devil, if we were using official translations we'd be calling the Shichibukai "Warlords" and Bon Kurei "Bon Clay", now wouldn't we?


 * Rin, I realize that "Boku" and "Ore" are different inflections of "I"; however, when translated to English, they can still be translated as "I". When translating "Nakama", it can't always be translated as "Friend" or "Crewmate", because it's one Japanese word that has multiple English meanings, not the other way around.


 * And with your statement of "if they had never translated Nakama would you have felt the same emotional response", the answer is yes. Before I read the scanlations and watched the fansubs, I read the Viz translation, where they hamfisted the translation for Nakama with "Friend", "Crewmate", "One of Us", etc. During the battle between Usopp and Miss Merry Christmas, Usopp says that a man must fight when "his friend's dreams are laughed at". I didn't feel any emotional resonance from that. None whatsoever. Then later I went back and read it scanlated, and read it as "When his Nakama's dreams are laughed at", which felt much more significant to me. Then of course there's the Arlong fight, where they kept juggling between "She's my friend", "She's my crewmate", "Nami you're one of us", so it just felt like juggling semantics. However, in the original, they were both insisting that Nami was their "Nakama", so when Luffy shouts "Nami! YOU'RE MY NAKAMA!!", it felt much more significant than "You're one of us now!". So yes, I always had felt a greater emotional response from "Nakama" than "friend" or "one of us". The Pope 15:54, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Votes
Okay, based on some comments, the poll is really not helping either side. For the purpose of making things clearer to some extent, I'm including the old style of voting into this discussion. It is a bit old but at least it's more formal and clearer to who wants want. The poll can still stay but it's a bit informal and can be too bias without reason at times.

Also note that while there can be a large number of votes on one side, it doesn't necessarily mean that decision has to be in favor for the greater number. A side can have a little number of votes but have strong arguments. The likewise can be stated also. A side can have a multitude of votes but have poor arguments.Mugiwara Franky 11:22, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Poll
Nakama or no Nakama? Nakama Translate it The Pope 14:21, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

Formal Votes
Against - Against translating Nakama, give reason and sign For - For translating Nakama, give reason and sign Neutral or other - For other reasons, state and sign


 * Neutral - I am one of those who find that Nakama has some special meaning. However, certain situations do indeed require it to be translated for the benefit of others.Mugiwara Franky 11:26, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Against - To sum up the reasons I've given above, Nakama can not be translated out to a single word; it can't always mean "friend" and it can't always mean "crewmate", either. As such, it should be left as is, rather than try to find a hundred different ways to translate it given the situation. The Pope 15:54, June 22, 2010 (UTC)