Talk:Shimotsuki Ryuma

While its here...
'''The Ryuuma of this earlier work was a samurai who resembled Zoro and the main protagonist of the one-shot comic. '''

I kinda like how this has been written. However I don't think we should go into any futher then this on the whole Ryuuma and Zoro. I have arguments from time to time on wikipedia over this. Basically artist redraw old characters time and time again... So noting similarities without the author ever mentioning it is rather stupid. (E.g. DB - half the characters are redraws of older characters). If Oda say "btw I redraw Zoro based on X character" we can write it down. But for now - I just like how this page is written. MF, you certainly do better then I could!One-Winged Hawk 22:03, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Monster
So everything and everyone in monsters in now part of OP's storyline have I understood that correctly from the last SBS set. I do apologise, I've just done three days straight of lack of sleep and last night I got my first decent rest. Trying to catch up with things... :/

But if it is, I guess we make articles for everyone and everything in Monsters now... One-Winged Hawk 13:21, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Wanted!!
While I understand that not all Wanted!! One-shot stories are not the part of One Piece but I believe we should include everything from Wanted!!, the characters; the locations, items, creatures and many more since Wanted!! was created by the same man who created this series so we should introduce Mr. Oda's earlier works.

Joekido 19:38, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm... The only downside to this is that we're a One Piece Encyclopedia, not a "ODa's Works" site. I agree with Monsters cause it now apparently part of OP's storyline. Mentioning the other strips is just fine. But characters, besides Monster's, that I'm not sure about. One-Winged Hawk

22:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Were not like a Star Trek Wiki where Gene Roddensberry did other project then Star Trek such as Andromeda or Earth 9 but that Wikia does not talk about them. However in the Muppet Wiki, not only was that site's about the puppets Jim Henson created, they also gave a page of one of his project that are not related to the Muppets such as Time Piece. True this is One Piece Wikia but it does not hurt to give a page to other of Oda's works.

Joekido 23:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I guess we can kinda have Monsters related articles since it's confirmed to be part of One Piece. However for the other Wanted! short stories, it might be a good idea to just place them on a single article called Wanted! since three of them don't seem to be connected closely to One Piece like Monsters and Romance Dawn. The Wanted! short story with Gill appears to use a different monetary system than Belli, Ikkiyako has apparently real deities, and the Death Note-like short story is set completely in a different time period and place, most likely modern day Tokyo. If Oda decides to integrate them into One Piece like Monsters then they could have more than one article. However until then, it's best to place them together in one page.Mugiwara Franky 08:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I thought we already had a page for Monsters, just like on wikipedia... :/

Apparently I was wrong. I must admit, I know little about it. Can someone make a "Monsters" page... I would like to add it to the story template, I'm adding Romance Dawn to it anyway. One-Winged Hawk 00:22, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

special flesh
where exactly was it stated he had special flesh?

Epithet
Isn't the epithet of Ryuma just "king" and not "the king"?

Surname
Vivre Card describes Ryuma as 霜月リューマ (Shimotsuki Ryūma). Does it make him Yasuie's relative and should we change the page name to correspond with his real name? 14:59, July 3, 2019 (UTC)

Vivre Card and Monsters
So the Vivre card info needs to be discussed, and since it's Ryuma's card, I think this is the best place to do this instead of separating the discussions:


 * 1) Ryuma is said to have acquired Shusui before cutting the dragon, so his sword from monsters is defiantly the same.
 * 2) The dragon was said to appear above Flower Capital, so the character from the one shot should be added to the Wano Country templates (gallery and navbox).
 * 3) The "Monsters" and Wano Country pages needs updating with location and first appearance.
 * 4) The events of Monsters should be added to Wano history section.
 * 5) Dragons should be moved to be from Wano in the Animal Species pages.

Either that or Monsters aren't canon, and a different Ryuma cut down a different dragon, and we need to make Ryuma (Wano) and Ryuma (Monsters) separate pages. Rhavkin (talk) 14:45, July 14, 2019 (UTC)

Oda said in SBS 47 that he was the same Ryuma, so two pages aren't necessary.Aguacate (talk) 15:34, July 14, 2019 (UTC)

The vivre card never said that Monsters took place in Wano. SeaTerror (talk) 17:09, July 14, 2019 (UTC)

The third entry in the history section: ワノ国都の空に現れた竜を斬り捨てる

translated to: Killed the dragon that appear in the sky above Wano's capital.


 * 
 * 
 * 

Rhavkin (talk) 20:51, July 14, 2019 (UTC)

I also want to point out that his last name was revealed to be 霜月 Shimotsuki, which just so happens to be the name of Shimotsuki Village (Oda throwing hints out). But can someone rename the infoboxes and stuff to reflect his last name.--Nightmare Pirates (talk) 23:12, July 14, 2019 (UTC)

Yes. It says "killed the dragon" not killed the dragon from Monsters in Wano. SeaTerror (talk) 23:38, July 14, 2019 (UTC)

Unless him slaying the dragon in Wano unquestionably contradicts the plot of Monsters, I do not think it wise for the default assumption to be that he killed two dragons. So unless there is proof that there is no way that the setting of the dragon slaying was Wano, I believe the accounts of the dragon slaying are all canon and refer to one event.

Also, I do not believe we should commit to Shimotsuki being Ryuma's last name quite yet, given that his main Vivre Card name is just Ryuma (in contrast to Charlotte Lola). Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 00:29, July 15, 2019 (UTC)


 * I just read Monsters and I don't see anything that strongly indicates it's not in Wano. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 00:47, July 15, 2019 (UTC)

Stating that it is the same dragon and took place in Wano is the literal definition of speculation. SeaTerror (talk) 00:57, July 15, 2019 (UTC)


 * Monsters comes out showing Ryuma slayed a dragon
 * Manga says Ryuma slayed a dragon
 * Oda confirms that this is the same continuity
 * Vivre Card states that Ryuma's slaying of a dragon occurred in Wano's capital

Unless there is proof that Monsters did not take place in Wano, then the dragon slaying mentioned in Vivre Card is completely congruous with previous events. Since we only have one recorded instance of Ryuma slaying a dragon, saying that Vivre Card's history is separate from Monsters without proof is actually speculation. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 01:19, July 15, 2019 (UTC)

It doesn't say the dragon mentioned in the Vivre Card is the same as the dragon in Monsters. That's your speculation. SeaTerror (talk) 01:24, July 15, 2019 (UTC)

Vivre Card says that the CP9 agents grew up on Guanhao. By your logic, since this island was not named in the manga, it is speculation to say that the island we saw in the manga was Guanhao. So if it says Ryuma slayed a dragon in Wano, and Monsters' setting is never named and does not indicate that it is not the same location as Wano, I see no reason why we would not logically put two and two together like we did with Guanhao, unless you can prove that the location of Monsters is not Wano. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 02:00, July 15, 2019 (UTC)

Neither can be proven which is why it's speculation to state it as fact. SeaTerror (talk) 18:37, July 15, 2019 (UTC)

So you oppose Guanhao too? I'm sorry, but that's just completely ridiculous and detrimental to any logical processing of information. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 18:42, July 15, 2019 (UTC)

Vivre Card says Sanji grew up in South Blue, so take with a grain of salt. Even the text is true, it is speculation that Ryuma slayed only one dragon in his life. I'm sorry but it is ridiculous that Monsters' location is Wano. --Klobis (talk) 03:31, July 16, 2019 (UTC)

Sanji did grew up in South Blue. Eight years worth of growing not counting emotional growth. The rule is for any databook date is to include it if it is not contradicting the source material. saying he cut two dragons but is only credited to one is more speculative then saying the capitol has changed since he was alive, which we don't know how long ago that was. If anything, you have to consider the fact that Wano is a closed off country so it is more then reasonable for any of his actions to be there. Rhavkin (talk) 03:45, July 16, 2019 (UTC)

The dragon wasn't killed in the skies either. It was barely above any buildings. Not to mention the architecture doesn't match the actual Wano arc. SeaTerror (talk) 04:03, July 16, 2019 (UTC)

"Killed the dragon that appeared in the sky", not "killed the dragon in the sky". And we know Ryuma was active centuries ago, architecture can change. Rhavkin (talk) 04:08, July 16, 2019 (UTC)

So to clarify, this has nothing to do with the Vivre Card being reliable or not, because the killing of a dragon above Wano's capital was first mentioned by Gyukimaru in Ch. 937. So we can put that argument to the side. However, it really does appear unbelievable that Wano Country went from a western style town to a traditional oriental style city. Also, Vivre Card says killed in Wano's capital, so that would mean it had to be the capital back in the day. But the town in Monsters was only referred to as a town/village (idk what kanji was used but I'm assuming the translations were correct), doesn't seem "capital-esque." Saying "It is unknown if this is the same dragon Ryuma killed above Wano" has far less consequences than "Wano used to be a western style country.......with cowboy hats.....and button up shirts... and jeans.... and no usage of O- in front of female names.... to what it is now." Then again, it is Oda, soooo... who knows.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 04:27, July 16, 2019 (UTC)

I did not think about Gyukimaru's ranting about Ryuma. While he did not mentioned where the dragon appeared other then "the sky", saying Wano was known as the "Country of Gold", and talking about outsiders coming to steal it, is very western like IMO. Rhavkin (talk) 04:46, July 16, 2019 (UTC)

Well, Gyukimaru did say it appeared over the "capital's skies". But I always thought the "黄金の国" (Land of Gold/Country of Gold) was a reference to Marco Polo referring to Japan as the "Land of Gold" (You know, since how Wano is basically feudal Japan) so I'm not sure if that was supposed to describe anything about how the land in Monsters was like.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 05:11, July 16, 2019 (UTC)

I do realize that the scenery did change quite a bit, but I still wouldn't take that as proof that this didn't happen in Wano. A lot can change in several centuries. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 11:05, July 16, 2019 (UTC)

Is the only reason against it is an artistic choice from fifteen years ago? Rhavkin (talk) 12:15, July 17, 2019 (UTC)

Once again, ST is the only opposing voice. Going back to the original points:


 * 1) Shusui history and Ryuma's weapon section needs updating.
 * 2) Character should be added to templates.
 * 3) Locations and first appearance updating.
 * 4) History section updating.
 * 5) Animal Species updating.

Did I forget something that needs to be updated or can we continue? Rhavkin (talk) 22:32, July 18, 2019 (UTC)

Huh cool. I didn't know I was Nightmare Pirates and Klobis. SeaTerror (talk) 03:39, July 19, 2019 (UTC)

I was obviously talking about actively talking against the idea. You can't count Klobis' one comment at the beginning of the discussion, and Nightmare didn't say he was against it, all he said was that the vivre card information is supported in the manga and that it seems weird that the capitol and the village are the same, not that it isn't. Rhavkin (talk) 04:22, July 19, 2019 (UTC)

I'm against it. It is a conjecture which is based on hypothesis over hypothesis. You can write "Monsters' location MAY be Wano according to VC information" in the trivia section, but I won't accept that the text is written as if it is undoubtedly true. --Klobis (talk) 06:32, July 19, 2019 (UTC)

Did you not see Nightmare's comment? It's just the vivre card. Ryuma cut a dragon above the capitol is in the original manga, the only question is whether or not Ryuma cut down two separate dragons in two separate occasions? Rhavkin (talk) 17:18, July 19, 2019 (UTC)

There is a difference between bald speculation and drawing connections. The manga and Vivre Card say he cut down the dragon in Wano, and Monsters' location is never named, nor is there anything contradicting it from being Wano. Just as Vivre Card says the CP9 agents grew up on Guanhao, so we gave that name to the island that the manga said they grew up on. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 18:31, July 19, 2019 (UTC)

The architecture contradicts it. SeaTerror (talk) 18:56, July 19, 2019 (UTC)

The architecture of a country can change drastically witihin a few hundred years, even decades. That argument is stupid. Aguacate (talk) 19:02, July 19, 2019 (UTC)

Well, I'm only not in support of saying its in Wano because of the stark contrast in cultures. It's too weird and I honestly question Monsters canonicity. Oda said its the same Ryuma, but that could mean two different things. He also said Galley in Chapter 900smthin was the same Galley, but we all know they're not the "same." It's just a reuse of the same design. Nightmare Pirates (talk) 04:17, July 20, 2019 (UTC)