Forum:Trivia guidelines: confirmation issues and possible revamp

Good day everyone!
As suggested on Merry's talkpage (Talk:Merry), I believe it is time to discuss the wikia's trivia guidelines - and possibly add / remove certain paragraphs.

''If you want to participate in the discussion, I recommend reading up on the current trivia rules (if you haven't already: One Piece Encyclopedia:Trivia Guidelines). 12:22, May 3, 2011 (UTC)''

What's the problem?
While the current rules are sufficient enough to explain what kind of trivia we want on articles, they don't make clear if we should allow only confirmed information from Oda (through the SBS or other sources) or also permit interesting observations from editors as well. This causes edit wars on a not very often, but regular basis. 12:22, May 3, 2011 (UTC)

What the guideline provides (related paragraphs):


So on the one hand we have the permission to speculate on possible connections, but on the other hand speculation should be strictly avoided. A double standard that causes irritations.

Examples of unconfirmed, but informative trivia.
While from Oda confirmed trivia's leave no room for complaints, "observations" from editors sometimes do. Nonetheless, they often provide interesting information.

 A good example would be Kalifa's trivia section, which contains all 3 "types" of trivia: 


 * Kalifa's birthday was revealed in a SBS Volume 43 to be April 23. This is because Secretary's Day is celebrated on this day.

(Trivia type 1.: confirmed by Oda) (Trivia type 2.: based on conclusion) (Trivia type 3: based on speculation, tho informative and backed up by an external link)
 * Oda has named several female characters after birds. Kalifa seems to be named after the Kalij Pheasant (or in German, "Kalifasan").
 * Her name might also be a reference to Queen Califia, queen of a legendary tribe of Amazon women who lived in the mythical Island of California.

Possible options so far:

 * 1) Allowing only confirmed trivia by Oda
 * 2) Allowing facts confirmed by Oda, along with conclusions based on similiar cases.
 * 3) Allowing speculation, but backed up with external links and/or reason. (includes Oda and option 2.)
 * 4) Eliminating the trivia section altogether and merge confirmed information with other sections (appearance, personality etc. - where it fits).

Discussion / suggestions
I like the fact that this thread was created .. but I dont like the trivia to be voted ( whether something should stay or not ).. it's not supposed to be for most of the time.

Frankly, I say option 1 is the way to go. Since speculations (backed up though they may be) may lead to creation of useless pages and unnecessary information within the main section of the articles by the more inexperienced editors. Yatanogarasu 00:44, May 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * I got a better idea: why don't we just eliminate trivia altogether? Like Zeldapedia doesn't do trivia at all. We can just add all the information from SBS (favorite food, color, etc.) into personality and appearance sections. Any other information can be added into appropriate places or not added at all if not important enough. Yatanogarasu 01:05, May 3, 2011 (UTC)

I think that option 2 is the best. The only problem is going to be distinguishing between observation and speculation, since both can have links, either for backup or further information. 01:16, May 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually it is not that bad. Option 2. basically has an indirect confirmation from Oda, indirect because he never explicitly said it. Like the example above, Oda often names female characters after birds - so it is highly likely that Kalifa is based on one as well (but he never said Kalifa is based on a bird). Option 3, on the other hand, has no such "indirect" connection to Oda. Kalifa stemming from Queen Califia is purely based on observation, since he never said that he names his female characters after famous figures from other media (tho it is obvious that he does). 11:03, May 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * Another example for option 2 is Ace. There was a trivia that his surname comes from Bartholomew Portugues which, is really likely, considering all the other characters that have been named after real life pirates, however it is unconfirmed. Panda 11:09, May 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * Another example for option 2 is Ace. There was a trivia that his surname comes from Bartholomew Portugues which, is really likely, considering all the other characters that have been named after real life pirates, however it is unconfirmed. Panda 11:09, May 3, 2011 (UTC)

I dont know which option this goes into, but I'm sure u can add any trivia to that section if the reference is provided and is trivial enough :)

Option one is the best way to go. Eliminating trivia is completely is a really horrible idea. I'll be back in two days. SeaTerror 06:36, May 3, 2011 (UTC)

Option 2 and 3 would effectively change nothing. Option 4 is a bad idea, as there are some things that just dont belong in anything but trivia. Option 1, I'm just going to go with the example I used on merrys talk page again. Donquixote Doflamingo. It's not confirmed, but it obviously comes from that. Option 1 would completely eliminate trivia like this and that's not good. Panda 10:38, May 3, 2011 (UTC)

Excatly, Panda is right we cant have a specific guideline that tells wether something is should be trivial or not .. ..Angel used to do it correctly among us ... now I'm sure of one thing though : the existing triva cannot fit into any of those options.


 * @Panda :Option 2 would change a lot, basically removing all trivia that has no direct or indirect confirmation by Oda. This trivia (for example) would be removed - its from the Sea Forest graveyard article: The inspiration for the Sea Forest graveyard might stem from the Japanese forest Aokigahara, also known as the Sea of Trees and often referred to as the Forest Of Death. The place is not only a popular tourist destination, but also became infamous for being a prominent place to commit suicide.
 * Option 3 would technically change nothing, thats true. HOWEVER, we would have an agreement that trivia like that is allowed and wanted, instead of constantly battling the super unclear and undefined "speculation" argument. Whatever the final decision will be, the fact that we agreed on one way is the point of this discussion 11:39, May 3, 2011 (UTC)

I will note at one point in the past, we did stop non-confirmed trivia, but the speculations were being added faster then I could remove them. I myself am against trivia sections, however, some like having them. I'd rather see sections for related trivia and maintain if there are more then one related trivia is should have a section on the page. However, due to the amount, at some point in the history of the wikia, I had to be more leniant to keep up with things, this was just before I stopped being a reglaur. Every so often I purge the trivia sections even now of some items that shouldn't be there. I honestly have no opinion overall on what should and shouldn't be there. But stuff like "He doesn't have a devil fruit" for Jinbei begs to question who the editor was aiming the trivia at. In fact "Captain Obivous" trivia point was put in to try and stop people writing trivia that felt like it was written for a moron then a reader.

I also note the current trivia guidelines were written to explain why something was removed, adressing certain itemsn and explaining where they should actually be. Trivia is the single hardest thing to control on the wikia. I am happy that people are starting to rethink them, they only adressed things that had to be sorted at the time. As a general rule, most of our guidelines were written like that. I do also stress that trivia is the hardest thing to handle and one of the most "facepalm" moments at times. One-Winged Hawk 12:06, May 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * Speculation posted on the mythbusters page is aimed to debunk the popular speculations and tell the fans what is and isn't known (example the "D"), but mythbusters is not for every speculation under the sun and should never be. Speculation overall is not welcomed on the wikia and certainly has no place in trivia sections, but due to the workload, *some* forms of it had to be allowed because it was really difficult to control trivia at one point. I admit, sometimes I take the micky of the trivia to see if anyone reacts and insert a little bit of my own. I will observe from this my ridiculous trivia posting DOES prove we don't want that kind of speculative trivia on the wikia but why we still let it on here regardless? that I don't know. The vast amounts of it started during 2009, up until that point it was kept a lot more under control. One-Winged Hawk 12:16, May 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, I like to remind everyone while I'm mentioning mythbusters is to act as a information centre to explain to newbie editors why popular myths got removed from a page. I.e. fake bounties. Without it, we loose a quick tool for directing misinformed fans. If it is lost, something else must be put in its place. One-Winged Hawk 12:22, May 3, 2011 (UTC)

The Mythbusters page is great to debunk speculation. However, there is no section explaining how to go about it when it comes to possible real-world references. Also, if one is added to mb, they might all have to be added, which will just get the page and its subsections completely cluttered. That is why I think stuff like that belongs in trivia. Also, for references that are sort of iffy (not sure if it is a coincidence or not), there could be a discussion on the talk page. 15:23, May 3, 2011 (UTC)

I'm ok with option 3 and basically not deleting anything, but I think it's a matter of expression. I'll explain it better, but let's procede in order: I think everyone agree that speculation like "Blackbeard will eat another devil fruit" or "Dragon has the king disposition" are not allowed, because this kind of things are more suited for blogs. To our problem, the "possible references", Oda cannot reveal every source of inspiration he got and he doesn't have to, and we cannot really often said/hypothesize "he was inspired by" because some things belongs to the cultural environment, and are shared by many works, and sometimes they are only coincidence but that not means we have to renounce to point them out, because not everyone can catch those "links" and maybe someone doesn't even know of their existence. Those "references" are what makes One Piece (and this site) an inter-cultural work, we have to see them for what they are: curiosities. So what to do? I think the way we write them down can change a lot of things, let's see some examples:

So change the way of write trivias can be helpful to avoid speculation/false etymologies (although I don't know if it's true for every tivia). leviathan_89  17:01, May 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * Oda has claimed that at the time of naming Luffy, he did so because he felt the name "Luffy" was right for his main character. Later Oda found out there is a Maritime term called a "Luff" and has insisted this is pure coincidence but one he was delighted by. Up until this point, this had previously been noted by fans and some considered it intentional. (If Oda didn't say anything on this) This is a coincidence, in this case we can simply point it out that "Luffy" shares/resemble his name with the Maritime term "luff". Stating it was derived, instead, would be a false etymology.
 * (about Crocodile) It may be a reference to Peter Pan villain Captain Hook, who had a hook for a hand and was eaten by a crocodile. or Decken being the 'cursed' captain of the Flying Dutchman and his pursuit of Shirahoshi somewhat follow the real-world legend: the captain can be freed from his curse if he finds a woman who will remain faithful to him. or Ryugu Palace is a reference to Ryūgū-jō, an undersea palace within the Japanese legend of Urashima Tarō. While the legend says that Tarō was led there after saving a sea turtle, the Straw Hats were led here for saving Megalo, Princess Shirahoshi's pet shark. These cases shows examples of common stereotypes reference which are evident, but someone possibly doesn't know (maybe a kid or someone from different cultural environment, like the Ryūgū-jō). Excluding these trivias would be a loss, in my opinion. However, we can change the statements to avoid speculations, like "In the Japanese legend of Urashima Tarō there was an undersea palace named Ryūgū-jō...which remember Ryugu Palace and the way the Straw Hats..."
 * The inspiration for the Sea Forest graveyard might stem from the Japanese forest Aokigahara, also known as the Sea of Trees and often referred to as the Forest Of Death. The place is not only a popular tourist destination, but also became infamous for being a prominent place to commit suicide. Again we can simply say "I Japan there is a forest named Aokigahara..."
 * For Ace (and Bartholomew Kuma), we can say "There was a real-life pirate named Bartholomew Portugues which share his surname with Ace and his mother". We can do this for all not confirmed real-life pirates references, this way we are simply stating the true.

Still here for a little longer. Just no. Renaming it saying it resembles something is STLL speculation. SeaTerror 17:31, May 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well sometimes renaming it isn't a solution, but saying "There was a real-life pirate named Bartholomew Portugues which share his surname with Ace and his mother" is stating the truth. It's a fact, and we don't hypothesize Oda took "inspiration" from him, but it's a curiosity worth mention. Well, that's was what I tried to say. leviathan_89  17:47, May 3, 2011 (UTC)

Making an observation between a character or place is not speculation. It is simply a neutral comparison. Saying that Oda based that character or place on something is speculation, unless he confirmed it. For example, if I said "Goa Kingdom shares its name with a provence in India", that is a comparison and nothing more, not implying anything. However, if I had said "Goa Kingdom seems to take its name from a provence in India", that can be considered speculation since it is just a blind guess and assumption, regardless of evidence. The key thing with this is neutrality in the observations. 19:20, May 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * Just noting even though we are not part of the wikipedia system, wikipedia banned observations for such reasons as they cause arguments. Wikipedia wants only confirmed facts. This is a little extreme, but I'm posting it here as part of the "other side".


 * I think, firstly, its more important to establish where we stand on trivia before we start altering what we got. As in, the kind of trivia we will and will not allow. This might involve going through and listing examples of trivia from vrious pages. One-Winged Hawk 09:29, May 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm sure no "options" or "guidelines" can decide if something is trivia worthy or not .. it's trivia and it's always varying --

Well I've said my reasons and provided examples, anyway if I wasn't clear I'm for option 3. I consider speculation only those like in the Mythbusters. @One-Winged Hawk: What do you mean with "wikipedia banned observations for such reasons as they cause arguments"? This article can be interesting for this matter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Examples leviathan_89  15:02, May 4, 2011 (UTC)

If you wanna talk about name meanings, then why not make an "Etymology" section instead of making it in the trivia? Then, food and color, just put them in personality and appearance. Early concept may well cover what others that Oda gave us. The rest, such as "this thing resembles this but not yet confirmed" or "this may be inspired by this", they are too speculative and vague to be allowed. Yatanogarasu 03:29, May 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm leaning towards removing trivia sections altogether, things like possible name links and so forth can go into a "Anime and Manga Influences" section anyway. If theres anything left over, we can invent new sections for it.


 * Etymology I want to point out goes in "Translation and Dub Issues" section, where things like names were explained. See Mihawk's page. Even if its not a Japanese name, it belongs in there... Or "Anime and Manga Influences" if it has a pirate link. There should be no names in the trivia, but as I said, I lost hope trying to keep up with trivia. At one stage I was moving it to there, but as fast as I moved it, someone either reverted or re-added it pointlessly. One-Winged Hawk 06:20, May 5, 2011 (UTC)

True, people just jam a bunch of things into trivia, and soon, we're open to speculations of all kinds, simply people think it's trivial. Trivia overall leads to speculations, and that is not right. So just get rid of it and we can all be happy. No more pointless editing wars (or at least reduce it greatly). Yatanogarasu 08:27, May 5, 2011 (UTC)

Moving the name-based and influence-based trivia to other sections can be a good idea, but a good number of trivia doeasn't fit other existing sections but "Trivia", so I don't think you can resolve the issue "moving" to other section without delete a lot of them. So basically, the problem is still choosing what to do, like option 1/2/3. But is the present situation that bad? People will always put "speculations" (in good faith), if not in "trivia" than in other sections (like Manga influences, name issues..) and, to me, there is a huge different between speculation like those in the Mythbusters and the "supposed speculations" in "Trivia". Just how do you write them can really change things, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Examples. Maybe I am too soft on this, but I don't think the existing trivia can "mislead" the reader. Keep in mind that this is a "fan-encyclopedia" so nobody but ourself can blame us, but if wed decide for a more strict-policy, so be it. leviathan_89  10:20, May 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, the fan situation is why I'm not 100% on the side of loosing trivia, though I'm on the way towards it. Most of whats written in the trivia sections CAN go on the page its really just a few bits that don't belong. But the fan factor makes it hard... Before we were forced to enforce a pre-chapter release on the wikia, people used to rush to add every bit of spoiler information on the wikia. This led to a TON of edits to remove the numerous pre-translation mistakes people made thanks to babel fish translations. *Groan*. With trivia its sort of a similair situation, people DO rush to add it. One-Winged Hawk 14:48, May 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * isn't it a little different? For the chapter case a think most of the spoiler informations are added by unregistered users, or am I wrong? For the trivia, most of the editors are registered, if we decide here and now what to do we can control the situation better and if someone will have a doubt he'll discuss it in the talk page. But I see yuor point. leviathan_89  16:03, May 5, 2011 (UTC)

Yes it is. Not everybody is going to agree that the comparisons are true. It is speculation to put them in. Removing trivia altogether is a horrible idea. Trivia sections are needed and contain interesting bits of information. This is not Wikipedia where people should remove trivia sections just to be asinine. SeaTerror 23:09, May 5, 2011 (UTC)