Talk:Jaguar D. Saul

Names
Origin of "Jaguar"

Answer me this question: His name in Japanese appears as ハグワール or "Haguwaaru." By my knowledge, there are 6 different ways to translate this: Hogwal, Hogwarl, Hogwar, Hogwalu, Hogwarlu and Hogwaru(then those 6 again with a u after the g). So my question is, where does the name "Jaguar" come from? I've seen it so many places that I feel like it must be a valid translation. Yet, I've never heard of any rule in Japanese where you translate an "H" as a "J". And if you look at the Japanese Wikipedia page for "Jaguar" they spell it ジャガー or "jagaa". So why do we translate his name as "Jaguar?"


 * I'm guessing since it was like that on Wikipedia its not been changed... I seemed to vaguely recall an old explaination from waaaaay backs about it. Jaguar is not the direct translation, but an indirect transaltion.  The Hag-whatever was suppose to be spannish/dutch/I don't know for Jaguar. Never found proof myself of any of this and I had checked.


 * The second and most likely theory that I can think of is that "Jaguar" was an early translation just as "Shachi/Sachi" turned out to be actaully "Thatch". The only other thing would be wait a few days and let the rest of us read the yellow data book. I can check the Grand Line Times as well.  This is all we can do.  So yeah... Leave it with the checkers for a few days...  I must admit, its shameful that things left over from wikipedia, but back at wikipedia it was shameful to argue over names (Zoro/Zolo was never a full victory). --One-Winged Hawk 22:49, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I checked all of the Wikipedia entries for Jaguar that use the Roman alphabet. None of them began with an "H." I checked the Yellow data book(page 161) and I could find nothing to suggest his name origin(though feel free to double check me) but if there is no reason, then I think his name is more accurately Hogwal and we should start changing it.


 * Sign you name with ~ at the end of your message please.


 * I'm surpised we haven't resolved this yet... Well what des everyone think??? One-Winged Hawk 02:46, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Saul or Saulo

Can we PLEASE use the name Saul instead of "Saulo"? Not only is Saul far more common, it also makes infinitely more sense with all of the other biblical names Oda's using this arc... Plus, it is accurate, as in the Japanese translation of the bible, they use the spelling of "サウロ" (Sauro) for Saul's name... So, yeah. Saulo just... isn't right... Where'd it come from, anyway? o_O I have NEVER seen it like that, and Google only shows up a little over 40 hits, most on Wikipedia... Murasaki 00:25, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * No. Saulo was used in the American Anime and IS the most popular despite your ideas. <- unsigned IP address 69.217.54.95


 * Well the American Anime isn't at the Saul bit nor the manga... So yeah... I like to know where you got that from.


 * They did release the 8th movie which includes a mention of him and does say "saulo." But if "Saulo" IS the Japanese version of an actual, biblical Saul, then it probably is more accurate to call him Saul. I've been trying to find that out, but if Oda doesn't say so, then the general rule is that "o" in Japanese is only dropped after "t" and "d."


 * Again, we now need to check the Japanese data books and Grand Line Times. --One-Winged Hawk 22:49, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * And from what I see... Saul is used more then Saulo. One-Winged Hawk 21:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Death
Okay, if we're going to disagree about it, let's discuss it here instead of just changing the page back and forth. XD

Evidence for Death:
 * 'Kiji mentioned that death is very quick after the person has been frozen solid. (I don't remember exactly when it was, but it was when he froze Robin)
 * Saul was left on Ohara, which got completely burnt down afterwards.
 * No matter how silly of a reason it seems, Saul is a flashback character. Sanji and Luffy are the only one's whose characters survived, and they did it with a sacrifice (Vivi and Usopp didn't have them in the same way, so they don't count). The other true influence characters all died. Kuina? Dead. Bellemere-san? Dead. Doctor? Dead. Tom-san? Dead (unless you're gonna try to argue that one too...). Characters in flashbacks die. It gives the characters their resolve to become who they are today. All the others have died; why should we assume Saul was any different?
 * There were no survivors on Ohara. That would mean that the only way he could have survived was to have left BEFORE the real Buster Call started. Which would mean... leaving on a marine ship. I highly doubt any marine would even consider it other than possibly 'Kiji... and, seeing how he treated Saul in the first place, I think we can assume that he wouldn't have.
 * Spandam mentions his death.

Evidence for Living:
 * He's not shown dead.
 * Spandam is the only one to mention his death, and, frankly, I don't know that he's the most trustworthy person around... Plus, he'd only be going by what his father knew, which is that Saul died. If Saul did somehow survive, he could have done it without Spandine knowing, making Spandam's statement not necessarily true (even if he thinks it is).
 * The name of the attack used by Aokiji implies that it is less then lethal.

So, if you have anything to add, please do. Just... don't erase my points. Just add to them below, and we can see if we can come to an agreement about what to do. ^_^ --Murasaki 23:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

He's dead. End of discussion. If in the future it turns out he is alive, then we'll gladly change it, but he was an integral part of Ohara and was in a flashback. He can die. Cody2526 01:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Heh, that's pretty much what I think too. But people keep changing it anyway. I mostly did this for people who disagreed on a fact that seems fairly obvious to me... I mean, people don't seem to argue that Tom-san's still alive, I don't see why Saul's any different. o_O --Murasaki 01:28, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe we should just have a list of "characters with ambiguous fates" (or whatever you want to name it), I can name five people who fall under this category already: Saul, Bellamy, Mr.7, Mr.9, And Miss Father's Day. (Justyn 07:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC))

Oh come on Justyn, Saul is dead and that's the fact so please stop trying to be full of yourself and leave Saul in the dead category okay. Peace out man

Joekido


 * You're talking to me about being full of himself, Joe? You're the the one who said flat out that we should all shut up and let you run the Wiki and do whatever you like. I don't think you have much room to talk on this particular matter. (Justyn 22:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC))


 * I have to agree... You do have good edits Joekido, but for every one good edit there are 10 others everyone else has to either alter or remove. I think you need to really think before you type and try to figure out what everyone is trying to do and avoid. Ironically you wrote on one page I later added to the Community Portal for people not to do things like blank out stuff... So far, every single point you raised on the said page you've gone against.


 * May I suggest you reread your own words - Editing Advice before you edit, least you continue to disobey your own code of editing. One-Winged Hawk 22:43, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry to butt in, but I agree he should be left as 'dead' until he is proven otherwise. If he is alive, we can then remove it. Its EASY to remove something like that. One-Winged Hawk 10:24, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * That's why I brought up the idea for a "Characters with Ambiguous Fates" catagory. We are 100% sure that Ms. Monday is dead, she had 23,000 pounds (10,000 kilograms) dropped on her neck, she's dead; on the other hand, Mr. 9 was thrown into a river and never shown again, we don't know if he survived or not. There is a strong case that Mr. 9 is dead, but there is almost just as strong a case that he is still alive, same thing with Saul.(Justyn 22:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC))
 * The one problem with that argument: they aren't in flashbacks. Even Miss Monday isn't definitely dead, as she's in current times. I mean, you'd assume that people would die from huge electric shocks (Pagaya, Sanji, Usopp, Robin, Zoro, Gan Fall, Wiper, I think Kamakiri, Laki... the list goes on), or from bombs blowing them up (Igaram and Pell, anyone?), but none of those have happened. If, for example, Pell had died, then I'd be much more willing, to say that Miss Monday was dead. As it is, I'm unsure even on that one...
 * I still do believe that Saul is dead. How could he not be? Flashback characters, especially the mentors, just are bad luck. XD Everybody should just stay away from those kids between the ages of 7-10, so they don't end up limbless/dead/poisoned/scarred. XD
 * (And yes, I know that the "no death in One Piece" statement is old and overused, but, sadly, it's true...) --Murasaki 23:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Do we really need a category that lists all the characters that have died. From the looks of things, this seems to creating a really bothersome debate that should be left in the forums. Its morbid and time wasting. Worse yet, its going to be repeated all over again with all the other characters that were defeated such as Arlong. I mean somebody's gonna argue that there is no way anybody, even a Fishman, could survive a neck breaking attack from Luffy. Lets not do this kind of things, okay. If a character died, then the article should just merely say it. If a character like Saul and Tom gets an ambiguous fate that may imply death then the article should imply that but not outloud say they died. We should avoid creating this kinds of arguments.Mugiwara Franky 01:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Arlong was confirmed to be alive by Oda-sensei, but that's beside the point. XD I'm more confused by the fact that this discussion was here in the first place, frankly, as I didn't see these as ambiguous at all... Yet nobody seemed to argue with the ones I did see as more ambiguous...
 * Anyway, I don't care about the category at all, but I do think we need to find a way to handle it that everyone agrees on... but it seems that everyone stopped discussing it anyway, so I dunno. XD --Murasaki 06:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure there will be a way to handle the category in which everyone will agree on. This, I think, is because of the different views everyone will have on who's dead and who's not. Arlong is alive and confirmed by Oda's statement, but what about those other characters who were defeated. Take the Baskerville judges, they were apparently ran over by the Rocketman and apparently left in place which was shortly bombarded by several cannons. Its possible they somehow ridiculously survived that fate however how can we really know. They may get a cover story or may appear again in the main manga however that's pure speculation. They may not even reappear again. If that is the case, it will take just one editor who interprets them being killed to place them into the Dead character list and then a discussion like this will happen all over again. It will happen again most definitely. Just because no one is bothering with the argument now does not mean they will in the future. Sorry but I feel like this category would really make too many unnecessary edit wars and discussions on who's dead or not, especially when this place gets more editors.Mugiwara Franky 16:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I really don't care if we get rid of it, as long as everyone else agrees. XD --Murasaki 21:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)