Category talk:Artists

Used
There may not be any users willing to accept artists as a category or a page but I have an idea for a page that will cover any occupation or title that doesn't have a page yet if there any users (even administrators) that will hear it out called Positions.--Rgilbert27 (talk) 20:21, April 23, 2018 (UTC)

Too vague Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 23:40, April 24, 2018 (UTC)

All the occupations listed in the Pirates navibox would be given a link along with the titles in Royalty and provide an entry for the occupations listed in Characters by Occupation category that don't have a page yet.--Rgilbert27 (talk) 23:55, April 24, 2018 (UTC)

I'll restore it if this page is approved via discussion/polls. 00:35, April 25, 2018 (UTC)

How do you get started?--Rgilbert27 (talk) 01:05, April 25, 2018 (UTC)

Start making your points here. 02:15, April 25, 2018 (UTC)

Needed?
Since the last discussion barely started, i'll start it now.

An artist is a person that deal with creating and making art, and since we already have several categories of artists, there is no reason to not have a parent category for them. Rhavkin (talk) 17:40, May 29, 2020 (UTC)

"Art" is subjective and incredibly broad. "Craftsmen" is a much more objective term and can define painters like Marianne and Giolla and sculpters like Galdino, Charlotte Perospero and Diego.

Also, it makes no sense to have scientists, shipwrights, mechanics and carpenters under the denonym of "Artist". Never mind that one needs to be of a certain skill level to be considered an artist in most areas. KingCannon (talk) 17:44, May 29, 2020 (UTC)

If your only problem is including Category:Craftsmen then that should be the only thing debated, not the entire category. I know that it sometimes called "Arts and Crafts" separably, so maybe that category shouldn't be here, but characters like Diego, Perospero, and Cracker should be here, and Usopp can be in both (Don't know we Oden in that category BTW). Rhavkin (talk) 20:13, May 29, 2020 (UTC)

That's not the only problem. There's also the issue that "artist" is a vague, subjective thing and tends to be reserved to those of a certain talent (and even then, talent is subjective when it comes to art).

My argument is that "Craftsmen" makes the whole notion of an "Artist" category redundant. Mainly because another word for "Craftsmen" is "Artisan", and it can include anyone who makes things, be them machines, clothing, weapons, paintings, etc. It's a broad category, but one that utilizes an objective criteria instead of a subjective one (that is, they create/produce/repair something). By the way, we could add Cooks to this as well since their occupation requires them to make food items.

Also, for stuff like Musicians, Dancers and Actors, the term "Performers" would be much accurate to describe them since music and theatre are part of the Performing Arts, which are distinct from the Visual Arts that encompass Painters and Sculpters. An example of someone that could be put in a Performer category is Shimotsuki Yasuie.

Also, Oden is a craftsmen because he knows how to sculpt on Poneglyphs. In fact, he's the perfect reason of why an "Artist" category makes no sense, since he's a sculptor, but not an artist. KingCannon (talk) 14:18, May 30, 2020 (UTC)

I agree with KingCannon, an "Artist" category is not needed and "Craftsmen" does the job perfectly fine. Keeping "Artist" is bound to result in a discussion of whether Luffy would get the category for drawing the Foxy Pirates' Jolly Roger. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 19:44, May 30, 2020 (UTC)

Helping my argument further, I will just link to the Wikipedia page for Craftsman.

It's a disambiguation page, and the first thing it shows is the definition of Artisan.

"Artist" as a category doesn't add anything that other, better-defined categories already don't. KingCannon (talk) 20:43, May 30, 2020 (UTC)

First of all, Luffy won't be called artist for his drawing skill just like he wouldn't be called a cook for his curry at the beginning of WCI arc. Being an artist, artisan, or a craftsmen is about the work one put into creation. for the same reason, cooks aren't artist, since not all dishes are made to look visually pleasing. Art is a general term (or vague or subjective, if you insist of calling it that) but the categories I add are specifically of the performing arts so don't nitpick on the title that can change.

The main different is that craftsmen creates for a purpose of use, while an artist creates for a purpose of art. That differ painters and sculptures from scientist or shipwright.

Also, Yasuie was never shown performing, and Oden was never shown to craft anything (the ability to write on isn't the same as creating or crafting). It's like someone being shown with a sword isn't classified as swordsmen. Rhavkin (talk) 04:51, May 31, 2020 (UTC)

The artist category was deleted two years ago. It should have never been recreated. SeaTerror (talk) 05:54, May 31, 2020 (UTC)

There's no such thing as Craftsmen make stuff for use, Artists make stuff for art. As long as you create something material, functional or decorative, you're a Craftsman, so if an Artist makes a painting, that doesn't stop them from being a Craftsman (since they still made a concrete picture). That's in the Wikipedia article. "Artist" is nothing more than a vague term to determine the Craftsman that does stuff for the sake of expressing themselves, which is why is such a subjective way of categorization since it requires knowing intent.

Shimotsuki Yasuie is a taikomochi. He's a Japanese male jester, and an entertainer by default. That would make him a Performer by occupation since the job involves dance, storytelling, humor and other clownish stuff.

And Oden is definitely a craftsman. The Kozuki Family are literally a clan of stonemasons. They craft Poneglyphs for the use of transmitting messages. And we see him crafting a message on the Shandorian Golden Belfry Bell. KingCannon (talk) 13:16, May 31, 2020 (UTC)

No the Wikipedia page for your definition is "artisan", not artist. Which is another word for craftsman.

artisan

Translate artisan into Spanish Pronunciation /ˈärdəzən/ /ˈɑrdəzən/ noun

1A worker in a skilled trade, especially one that involves making things by hand. ‘street markets where local artisans display handwoven textiles, painted ceramics, and leather goods’

Definition of artist in English:

artist

Translate artist into Spanish Pronunciation /ˈärdəst/ /ˈɑrdəst/ noun

1A person who produces paintings or drawings as a profession or hobby.

1.1A person who practices any of the various creative arts, such as a sculptor, novelist, poet, or filmmaker.

SeaTerror (talk) 19:05, May 31, 2020 (UTC)

From the Wikipedia artisan page. This is literally the first paragraph:

"An artisan (from French: artisan, Italian: artigiano) is a skilled craft worker who makes or creates material objects partly or entirely by hand. These objects may be functional or strictly decorative, for example furniture, decorative art, sculpture, clothing, jewellery, food items, household items and tools and mechanisms such as the handmade clockwork movement of a watchmaker. Artisans practice a craft and may through experience and aptitude reach the expressive levels of an artist."

Pay attention to that last sentence in particular. In other words, anyone who deals in paintings, drawings, sculpting is a craftsman/artisan by default. The only thing that separates an "artistic" craftsman from a "regular" craftsman is talent and an intent to express, which are both subjective. Or do you think craft like "painted ceramics" is not within the scope of an artist's work?

There's a reason why Art is still debated to this day, and if X counts as Art or not. It's a term that can be extremely broad or extremely specific depending of who you ask. A "Craftsman" category does not need this baggage since there's no debate about what craftsmanship is. KingCannon (talk) 21:11, May 31, 2020 (UTC)

I posted definitions from a real dictionary. Wikipedia is a website any random person can edit. SeaTerror (talk) 10:25, June 2, 2020 (UTC)

That argument is what anyone would say about the One Piece wiki. But there are moderators and administrators like here. Cracker-Kun (talk) 11:33, June 2, 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is also heavily moderated and utilizes dictionary definitions as well. Attacking Wikipedia credibility is no different than attacking this Wikia's. Also, never mind that most of our external links point to Wikipedia, so it's beyond hypocritical to say we can't rely on it.

Plus, using dictionary definitions doesn't really change the argument. Painters, sculptors are all skilled workers who make things by hand with the usage of tools, which are under the scope of "Craftsman". "Artist", meanwhile, has loads and loads of different definitions and what is or is not Art is still heavily debated.

For example, are Martial Artists artists? If you wanna go literal, they should be. "Artist" is a troublesome term that we don't need to have since there are better alternatives. KingCannon (talk) 12:36, June 2, 2020 (UTC)

Art is subjunctive. Being an artist is not. With ST definitions, it is more then clear that someone working in creative and\or performing arts is different from craftsmen. Not all artists are craftsmen, and not all craftsmen are artist so neither category should be under the other, but that doesn't mean the Artists category is unnecessary. Rhavkin (talk) 19:53, June 2, 2020 (UTC)

Some artists are craftsmen though (in particular painters and sculptors), and that's the issue.

By having "Craftsmen" for people that make solid art and "Performers" for people that perform art, you get rid of an uneccessary overlap. You get two distinct categories that neatly separates characters through an objective criteria. We don't need, for example, Perospero, to have both "Craftsmen" and "Artist" (because that's redundant since his "Art" is to "Craft" candy). He only needs to be identified as a Craftsman, an artistic Craftsman, but still a Craftsman in the end.

An Artist that makes crafts doesn't stop them from being a Craftsman, but not every Craftsman is an Artist. As you can see, an "Artist" category would just create one hell of a headache, because you can't have it be a supercategory for Craftsmen (because not every Craftsman is an Artist) and neither a subcategory (because Musicians and stuff are not Craftsmen). And separating both of them is also not ideal since you would be needing to insert many characters into two categories when they could be just in one.

In any case, this is going nowhere. I would like more people to weigh in. KingCannon (talk) 20:01, June 2, 2020 (UTC)