Forum:Klobis

Discussion
I've run out of patience. Right now, I'm calling for a ban of at least one month on the user Klobis for being at the heart of many edit wars, refusing to use talk pages or communicate and lack of cooperation in general. Over the last few days I've had to attempt fixing poor edits on his behalf, only to be undone by the very user himself for no good reason. He has also been an issue with images, and seems to be determined to remove many for no good reason, or replace them with his own despite failing to correctly insert them into pages.

I understand he is beneficial to the website due to his ability to speak Japanese, but as far as I can see that is his only saving grace. He is becoming increasingly detrimental to the site and it's community, and the pros of keeping him are quickly losing out to the cons. 08:08, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Please try to collect a bunch of sample links to the revisions you are talking about and add them here (just look at yours or Klobis' contributions), so that everyone will able to see for themselves. If you don't do so, everyone will just talk about their personal sensation about the user and this forum won't go anywhere. Thanks.

Fine.

In the case of his refusing to use talk pages or communicate, I can hardly give you examples of them as the point is, such cases don't exist. Let me rephrase that however, he refuses to use them, unless it suits his needs. I'll give you an example for that later.

As for edit wars, from recent memory we have (despite it being explained to him) Klobis entering former bounties into the infoboxes of Trafalgar Law, Basil Hawkins, Jinbe, Killer and Eustass Kid. He has also been focused on degrading the character table image. In the case of Silvers Rayleigh's page, he has repeatedly removed a large amount of images from the page. Why? I don't know, because he refuses to communicate. Then there's the edit war over the episode collages, starting with, where despite an administrator stepping in he still pursued the issue through talk pages (bringing me back to my above point about only using them when it suits his needs, and also proving the supposed language barrier defence obsolete in discussion.) Such wars over the collage image also occurred for , which was only stopped short thanks to the intervention of an administrator locking the page.

And this is just recent memory. I could go back further, I could even check his contributions. But I'd rather not go through hundreds of examples of needless edit wars and endless undo's. 11:30, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

Well technically you should, it would be bad if we decide a ban over some sensations. As far I can tell, I do remember often Klobis simply making/reverting an edit without a giving an explanation, but the first edit it's not a issue since everybody can edit an article by their judgement, the problem begins when two or more users stubbornly start an edit war. So that's the cases you should bring here. About the anime images, is still questionable though: that's just your opinion (as it's Klobis opinion that the manga version is better), but do you see my point? If I update an image with whatever version I think it's better then you cannot really talk of "established version". Can you deny that many users uploaded anime version of images just for the sake of having the anime version? Isn't it the same thing? The correct way to manage a edit war is to always give some justification for major changes and limit the reverting to one time, which he didn't (which is your point).

It would be bad if we did that, luckily this isn't the case. Every time I see an ongoing edit war or the recent activity becoming contorted, Klobis is at the centre of it. Many of these issues could be resolved if he simply spoke his mind, rather then relied on others to defend him. But he doesn't, and I am personally tired of cleaning up the mess. His banning would be more beneficial to the site, and would help avoid so many headaches for a lot of people. I've said what I feel I need to right now, and you have also made your opinion clear. Before this discussion makes any more headway, I'm going to wait until somebody other then you has some input. Maybe someone who isn't dismissing my claims as merely sensation. 13:47, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

No wait, don't misunderstand me. I recognize that what are you saying is right. If you want to know my opinion right know, I think that if things aren't cleared up here then a short ban (1-2 weeks) would make a good message, for him and for others.

I remembered that once here if you wanted to call for a ban you had to provide good reasons supported by facts, so I just wanted to do things right that's all. I personally feel that many decisions (other then bans) are recently taken too light-heartedly and I don't like that, that was my point in my previous posts. Other than that, I also wanted to pointed out that many users have had a similar behaviour to Klobis', so we should take that in account (by that I mean give a warning to these users as well). Hope I was clear.

Thank you for clearing your position up Levi. I know one month may seem harsh, and really if Klobis was to come out and agree to communicate more openly I'd call off the ban altogether. But as things currently stand, I don't see that happening, and I hope the ban serves to be more of a wake-up call then anything. 14:26, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

It takes two to start and continue an edit war. If Klobis doesn't want to talk this through, just being stubborn and only undo's the edits, then he must clear this out on this forum right now. Klobis you know how to speak english, it wouldn't hurt for you to write a sentence just to clear this out. Always has to be a fucking edit war. If Klobis ignores this, then I support this ban (2 weeks at least).

I just want to say before anyone else comes in and something like "We shouldn't ban him, he's a regular editor!" as their argument. It's my opinion if someone is a regular editor, and their behavior is unacceptable, we should feel more obligated to ban them than a new user. We shouldn't jump to their defense just because they are on the wikia frequently. If their actions are harmful, then they are harmful, and if they're on regularly, then they are regularly harmful. We shouldn't defend that.

Recently, we've had a few regular users who have been banned/warned by Central Wikia. Those cases we more for more for insults and bad behavior towards other users, so they are a bit different from what we're talking about here. But the fact that those actions were deemed so bad that Central had to step in kind of implies that this wikia can't take the actions it needs to when it comes to banning. It implies that this wikia can't ban people when are most basic rules are broken by regular users. I think that means we need to seriously examine our defense of regular users when it comes to banning regular users.

And that doesn't mean that I want all regular users who do something wrong to be perma-banned, never to return again. I support Klobis being banned for a short 2 weeks, as a disciplinary action to prevent further bad behavior. I want Klobis to return after those 2 weeks with a changed attitude. 15:46, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

These edit wars of images originate with those who love ugly anime pictures deeply, rather than manga images. They also tend to upload anime images without manga counterparts. When we have good images by Oda, especially color images, why must we use unsteady, uneven anime images?

And for episode collages, if we keep using official four images, there will be no edit war. The ones who chose images in their own discretion caused that wars.

Removing former bounties is absolutely nonsense. Why do we have to take the trouble to go to "bounties" page, to know their bounties? What a meaningless wiki. --Klobis (talk) 16:11, August 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * If you think this wiki is meaningless, then why are you on here? 20:30, August 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * The problem is that the anime images that we had were fine, and you decided to just upload colored manga ones without giving a reason. We reverted you,and then you reverted back without a reason. Your hatred for the anime doesn't mean you get to decide that every anime image is "terrible". For the episode collages, you were the only one reverting Kuro's, while noone else really cared. I'm OK with having former bounties on the pages, but if you're going to just do it for a few people, then just don't do it at all. Galaxy9000 (talk) 20:35, August 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * Klobis, firstly thank you for responding to the forum and proving you can indeed speak for yourself. Second, while some of the example edits may be merely preferential in nature, it is because of this that people will tend to disagree with you. However, unlike most disagreements with users, your's only become edit wars because you often refuse to talk it out before it gets out of hand. That is why you are a problem, while others who do the same are not. To us, when you undo us all we see is a voiceless, faceless user who cannot, or rather will not be reasoned with. 23:44, August 27, 2012 (UTC)

At least, I want you guys not to upload anime pictures without manga counterparts. --Klobis (talk) 02:46, August 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * ...unless they derive from fillers or movies? ;) -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 07:34, August 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * That's not your call to make. And out of curiousity, why?? 08:06, August 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * To answer why: Because the manga is only done by one person with one drawing (developing) style. The Anime is done by several persons with different drawing styles, and they keep messing viewing angles, character poses, and misinterpret attacks... Just for example... -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 08:37, August 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah, yeah. I understand it's about keeping a history of the original illustration. But it's still ridiculous to expect me and anybody else to get the manga equivalent (which often may not even exist, and if so must be a RAW image) just so I can upload an additional image on top of that. It's just more effort for no return, and the additional files only go towards taking up space on the servers. 10:09, August 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * There's no need to be concerned about things like "space on Wikia's servers". They've got plenty... And aside from filler scenes, virtually all scenes exist as manga. -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 10:17, August 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * I think we are going off topic here...


 * Levi's right. I'll just say this last thing, no Chris they aren't. Most inconic scenes will be, but everything in the middle is a severe matter of hit and miss. Especially as most middle scenes can be just tiny panels in the original. As for the space issue, yes it is a problem as otherwise we wouldn't have file size limitations in the rules. If you want to discuss this separate issue further, make a forum or just come into chat. 11:17, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Back on track. Klobis' ban. General opinion is two weeks should be good, but I get the feeling we should still poll it. So is every user currently following this forum in agreement that we should open the, "Should Klobis be banned?" poll, followed closely by the sequel of, "And for how long?" depending on how well the box office does for the original. 11:17, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Please remember it is you who caused that wars. The ones who chose images in their own discretion. --Klobis (talk) 13:08, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Turns out to be that this forum is not for Klobis anymore, it's for the images. Kuro if you want to end this, open a poll and don't drag the conversation somewhere else, focus.

That's exactly what I just said, LPK. Poll's open. 14:21, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

I'm just a little reluctant to vote right now. But if Klobis doesn't acknowledge that he needs to use a forum or talk page to settle his problems with images and any other substantial edits before he goes ahead and changes them loose cannon/lone wolf style, then I will support the ban. If he can acknowledge that he needs to change his way of doing things, (which is the point of this ban anyways) then I don't see the ban as necessary. 14:34, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

What KuroAshi98 and Galaxy9000 said: --Klobis (talk) 02:27, August 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Editing as they please and not accepting edits by others: OK, no ban
 * Editing in accordance with official choices, so that there are no arguments: Wrong, ban

What KuroAshi98 said: --Klobis (talk) 02:43, August 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Readers of the wiki must not know supernovas' former bounties in their own page: OK, no ban
 * We should list their former bounties in their own page: Wrong, ban

Read the first line Klobis, "I'm calling for a ban of at least one month on the user Klobis for being at the heart of many edit wars, refusing to use talk pages or communicate and lack of cooperation in general."

That's it. Poll's up. It's the community's turn to vote now. 03:08, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

In that case you are the first one to be criticised since you made the cause of many edit wars, acted as you please. --Klobis (talk) 04:55, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

That would be you since you never use talk pages. SeaTerror (talk) 01:22, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

Well, accusing each other won't get you anywhere, many users are at fault. That's why I think you should be setting some examples.

This forum is a joke. Klobis never was even warned by an admin. This is not the way things should be done…

Sff you've seen what he does. If he just used the talk page he wouldn't be in this mess. Galaxy9000 (talk) 03:19, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

I know. But he shouldn't be in this mess anyway: Others regulars whose ban has been polled like this had had multiple warnings (I mean, real ban-threat warnings by admins) before the forum was even opened. This is quite unfair to Klobis. Plus, one week poll? Come on…

I was just basing this forum off Meganoide's when I decided the time (being the first ban forum I've started). But I mean, if we took 2 weeks to decide whether someone will be banned and two more to decide the time then it means we'd of taken an entire month to ban somebody. In this case it's not too extreme, but for some other users a ban would be needed ASAP. 12:01, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Why didn't we made the poll in one go? (Do you want to ban him? If so for how long?)

@Sff: We don't need an admin to warn everyone here that disturbs our work, we are a community and we can easily bring it to a forum and complain about it. And 1 week is fine, gives the chance to people to think about it or just for inactive users. What's done is done, if you think it's unfair to Klobis you should've just talked to him when the edit war was happening, and technically that's why there is a poll.


 * Well, we are voting to ban him for a whole month at minimum which is just ridiculous... And many edit wars started because someone just reverted Klobis' edits. As Klobis learned from World Timeline and from edit commentaries like that one, it is completely legal here to simply block off edits - even after giving TONS of reasons - and even insult people in the process of editing articles here without being harmed or banned.
 * I perfectly understand him not to talk things through and just do his way. -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 06:23, September 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * No Chris, we are not banning him for a month. The next poll will determine a time, with the options of one week, two weeks and one month (due to only being a first ban). The winning option will be the time he is banned for. 08:32, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

I just want to note a few things. First, if Klobis gets banned, how is he going to supply us with all the info, etc.? Will we have to contact him through another site, or will we have to search the info ourselves? Basically, it would be a fuss to look for them, because most of us cannot read Japanese, and some of the info may be wrong. Also, when you editors were having discussions based on the edit wars, did you even bother to invite Klobis over and discuss why he thinks it is that way on a page or a file? I believe the answer is no. We all know Klobis is not really interactive with the users, but really, just writing a quick message like "Hi, please come here (page or file's talk) to discus why you think it is that way (Klobis' edit). Thank you." or something like that could just save you all the fuss of being angry at him and even making a pointless forum. 10:28, September 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * 1) Not needed.
 * 2) Been there, doesn't work.
 * 3) "Pointless forum", "This forum is a joke", it's as if the people defending Klobis can only resort to dismissing the forum and evidence, rather then actually offering a real rebuttal to what is now a large pool of arguments for the ban.

Until I see a genuine argument using facts and proper judgement, consider this my final reply to the "Discussion" section. 10:54, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Would you be so kind as to show me where people defending Klobis dismissed any evidence, please? It seems to me that on the contrary, we're the only ones making concessions here… To my understanding, nobody denies that Klobis' behavior is annoying. The problems are: For all these reasons, I don't think Klobis should be banned now. An admin should warn him that the next time he edit wars without stating reasons, he's gone. This would be the proper way to settle this.
 * 1) your forum is unfair for a number of reasons:
 * 2) there has been no admin warning, and generally no admin intervention, whereas banning is admin prerogative
 * 3) the poll has been started very soon, not many people had participated in the discussion
 * 4) the poll duration is really short
 * 5) it takes two to edit war, why is Klobis the only one being accused?
 * 6) in comparison to the behavior of other editors, Klobis' is benign: he does not insult those who don't agree with him, and he actually has reasons for his edits…

Sff9 has a point (more than one). I especially agree to the fact the poll was started while the discussion was still going (and I would have included the ban length too, to avoid doing a second poll, but that's not a problem).

Poll closes tomorrow and if you want Klobis not to be banned, I suggest you to vote for it instead of just talking about it...

I'm fine that way, I wanted to abstain in the first poll, I'm not really against his ban anyway. I was only criticizing the way the poll was made, so that we won't do the same next time.

First Poll
Whatever, time for the poll. You know the drill, the initial poll will end in one weeks time on the 6th of September (UTC +10:00). You must have 300 edits, and been active for three months to vote. If a ban is decided, the next poll shall decide the length.


 * Ban
 * 1)   14:21, August 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2)  Galaxy9000 (talk) 20:55, August 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * 3)  Generally disruptive editor. Cheese Lord (talk) 01:01, August 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * 4)  necessary ban. Besty17 (talk) 01:03, August 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * 5) It's for lack of peaceful cooperation, not the content of any edits. 04:01, August 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * 6) for old time's sake.
 * 7) SeaTerror (talk) 01:22, August 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * 01:50, August 31, 2012 (UTC) Honestly, if this was months earlier, I would have practically nominated you as admin.
 * 03:22, September 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * 16:03, September 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) I'm not really an editor, but from what I've seen on the forum a ban seems like a merited solution.


 * No Ban
 * 1) -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 16:30, August 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2)  05:16, September 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * 3)  16:59, September 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * 4)  10:29, September 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1)  10:29, September 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1)  10:29, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Second Poll
Okay, time's up. The community has voted in favour of a ban. This second poll will determine the length of time. This poll will run until the 13th of September (UTC +10:00) and you must have 300 edits on top of being active for three months minimum to vote.

How long should Klobis be banned for?


 * One Week
 * 1)  01:10, September 6, 2012 (UTC) He don't deserve to be banned, in my opinion. So I'm going along with the shortest ban length for him.
 * 2)  02:00, September 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * 02:15, September 6, 2012 (UTC) Two weeks seem a LITTLE lengthy, especially with how much he still contributes to the Wiki. One week is enough.
 * 1) -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 06:18, September 6, 2012 (UTC) again only one week poll. ridiculous.


 * Two Weeks
 * 1)   01:02, September 6, 2012 (UTC) As Klobis has become much more vocal since this forum opened, I feel two weeks is now all that's needed to get the message to last.
 * 2) Galaxy9000 (talk) 01:05, September 6, 2012 (UTC) anything more would be too harsh. He does provide us with translations and raw images.
 * 01:06, September 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * 01:09, September 6, 2012 (UTC) Just a little time to reflect and come back with a changed attitude. Please don't leave us forever, Klobis.


 * One Month