Talk:Belly

Name
I'm pretty sure "belly" is one of the least popular spellings for beli/beri/berries, for the obvious reason that it looks the funniest. Perhaps we should have a vote on what to use? Personally I like beli the best, but I'm not really picky so long as it isn't "belly".unsigned by

Six years later, and this guy's request is now denied. Oh, the irony. 19:38, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

I'm 1000% sure it's not Belly but is Beils, Caring16:) (talk) 03:26, October 22, 2013 (UTC)

On what basis? 03:33, October 22, 2013 (UTC)

There is already evidence in images that the romanized name is "Belly". There was already a discussion about this at the bottom of this talk page and it was decided to keep it as "Belly". 03:38, October 22, 2013 (UTC)

Why are you even having this conversation? 03:58, October 22, 2013 (UTC)

A little something
Not to bring old wounds up but can this little thing "" be used to symbolize the monetary system for belli at least in the infoboxes since it seems like the problem of berry and what not seems to come up every once in a while.

It could be used like this:

300,000,000

Since it's the most recognized symbol for the money, it could at least solve the problem.Mugiwara Franky 17:36, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd say we go with the symbol until we've come up with something that can ultimatly be the "correct" spelling of beli/beri/berry. YolkaEd 18:19, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The symbol is the best thing we can use, but I'd cut it down to half the size so it doesn't effect the page.


 * Sorry guys for the slow reply. Been doing a lot of busy work in real life, plus my net craped out on me for a few weeks. Now the sun is shining and the box unit that controls my neighboorhoods net connection has dried out, I can work more on the site again. :) One-Winged Hawk 13:44, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Wrong Name
The article uses the wrong name. It is never Belly. It is either Beli or Beri. I say it should be changed to what it really is. Drunk Samurai 20:41, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I think its the articles orginal name, as it was on wikipedia. When the info on it was transferred, the name never got altered. On wikipedia, we had huge debates over name. --One-Winged Hawk 21:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I say we change it to Beli then. Its the correct name after all. Drunk Samurai 17:53, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Merging proposal
Should we merge this article and Extol into one article entitled "Money" or "Currencies", like in the German wiki? El Chupacabra 18:27, January 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Seconded. Their all stubs anyway. One-Winged Hawk 18:56, January 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose: Stubs aren't actually worse than merged articles that sum up different topics in probably very long listings. I'm already having a hard time looking up attacks on Gomu Gomu no Mi, Okama Kenpo et al. So I beg you - please leave it as it is, even if they're stubs. (Plus: The German wikia won't have such merged articles.) -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/intern/de/images/thumb/a/a4/C2.png/15px-C2.png · 18:25, January 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Umm, technically Beli is a fundamental aspect of the One Piece story so it kinda deserves it's own article. For Extol, I'm not sure.Mugiwara Franky 23:28, January 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have ideas how to improve this page, but I will wait until the end of this discussion. The German wikia does have this merged article, I found it when I searched for the images. This gave me the idea for the merger here. I don't consider Beli a very fundamental aspect. It's just the currency used in One Piece, but nothing vompletely unique like the Devil Fruits or the World Government. El Chupacabra 14:10, January 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, OPwiki ain't part of Wikia, it's a "foreign wiki" to us. They thought of transfering to here but refused in the end and stayed independent. Interwikis point to Wikia only. -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/intern/de/images/thumb/a/a4/C2.png/15px-C2.png · 17:24, January 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, Germany is divided once again. ^_~ However, I've noticed the "foreign wiki" has more arrticles then you have (3870 vs. 754 according to the main pages), so I would recomend you to negotiate about a transfer. I think we all would benefit from this. El Chupacabra 16:47, January 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * There is nothing to negotiate. They don't want to come to Wikia - that's set for years now and since then Wikia relicensed texts from GFDL to CC-BY-SA - OPwiki stayed with the GFDL, and the time's up for that relicensing process. So either way - it's not possible. -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/intern/de/images/thumb/a/a4/C2.png/15px-C2.png · 20:21, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Basing a merger on another site, especially one that's abit more of a fansite, maybe not a good idea. It has some good ideas but not necessarily all of it should be followed.


 * Beli is kinda a fundamental aspect of One Piece. You see it on Wanted Posters. You see it on Nami's eyes. You see it being used. You see it particularly everywhere. It's kinda an international standard in the One Piece world. The other currency such as Extol and what's being used on Amazon Lily however are pretty minor considering only certain places use them.Mugiwara Franky 14:20, January 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, then let's keep Beli but merge the other currencies into it as a section. At least Extol seems to be pegged to the beli, so it would fit well into this article. El Chupacabra 16:47, January 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * How about merging Extol and Gol into one article "Money" and keeping Beli as a more detailed stub? -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/intern/de/images/thumb/a/a4/C2.png/15px-C2.png · 20:21, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Considering Extol and Gol are not exactly Beli, that would be a better solution I guess.Mugiwara Franky 07:54, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

A Little Help?
Well I tried to create a sort of "Stepping stone" system of note on this page to indicate what is from poorest to richest 'wealth' but I need someone to give a second opinion on this. Mostly, I've noted its a common difficulty for folks to grasp how 'wealthy' is 'wealthy' in the OP worlds context and a lot seem to think that a 100,000,000+ bounty isn't that high. Its something I'm come across a number of times over the years, but recently noted it more and more because of the scales are being tipped this high by Oda. Since the Straw Hats have gotten 200,000,000 and 300,000,000 in two different cases, its slowly becoming a fan problem with judging the amounts overall gross value. One-Winged Hawk 01:34, March 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * For places like East Blue, it appears that the 10 millions or so are an extremely wealthy amount. For places like those in the Grand Line, especially those farther down along the line, it appears the 100 millions or so are more wealthy. Parts of this however are based on bounty standards and not necessarily every day standards so I'm not entirely sure.Mugiwara Franky 02:24, March 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well it does seem you can get some universal level; the very poor have a life savings of less then or about 100,000 while the richest have 500,000,000+.


 * To be well off you need to have a reglaur source of about 50,000-100,000 since this is about the amount Arlong ceased from the villagers and they just abut made it over the years without loosing anyone even when the going was tough. 2,000,000 is a high amount for anyone of this soical wealth to achieve and Nami only hit it because of her thiving skills off of pirates. Royalties shouldn't normally have a problem of 100,000,000 being lost without their country without fear of bankruptcey (alabasta was just unlikely), but their wealth is definately nothing compared to the World Nobles.


 * Mind you, the existance of 50 beli in a system where 500,000,000 is seen being spent is a sort of indicator to just how poor they may go. One-Winged Hawk 02:30, March 18, 2010 (UTC)

Gor
Information about Gor has been here for rather long time, but still nobody provided a confirmation. I think it's time to remove it from the article. Ruxax 14:50, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Did you somehow miss the reference? SeaTerror 17:55, October 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * His comment was before I added the reference.Mugiwara Franky 18:01, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Extol image
I cannot really tell, but isn't Amazon holding some extols in her hand in the cover of chapter 645?

I don't think so. They look more like coupons if anything. It would be odd for Amazon to hold the money out in the open like that. Ticket taker at amusement parks don't normally flash their cash like that. 00:38, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

"Beli" to "Berry"
According to the translation/dub section, ''"The author has spelled it both as "Berry" and "Belly" on the actual bills." ''If this is true, then why isn't the name of the article "Berry"? The author spells it this way, making it an official romanization, does it not? 07:45, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

He has also romanized it as Beri. And because it's Engrish we say Beli.

But which romanization is his latest? Don't we always go by the latest spelling he makes? Such as Alabasta. Besides, if he never spells it as "Beli", that technically makes this article fan-named. It should be "Beri" or "Berry". 07:59, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

Where did he romanize it as berry?

I don't actually know. But the article says it. It could be an error, though. Where did he romanize it as Beri? Did he ever actually romanize it as "Beli"? If he never romanized it, then I guess the name of the article is okay. 08:12, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

He has romanized it as beri.

Are you sure that's Oda's romanization and not the translation from the English volume? 08:50, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure. The previous picture in that file was an obvious translation, so this could be a raw that Leviathan uploaded. But it's also in the category "scanlation images allowed", so it might not be raw. Since Leviathan_89 uploaded it, we'd need his answer. 23:33, January 3, 2013 (UTC)

It's not a raw, it's the scanlation version (by null) edited by me to match our romanizations of the three joke character names, this is also why the image is in Category:Scanlation Images Allowed. The raw uses kanji both for names and the word beli. If you want I can upload the raw, but I believed we needed the English words in this one. I can also try changing "Beri" to "Beli".

But which one did Oda actually romanize it as, if at all? 00:11, January 4, 2013 (UTC)

There is no romanization in that SBS. I believe we have to look for it in the manga.

I found the first romanization as "Belly" in chapter 95. Since the translation/dub section says it was also spelled "Berry" I guess that was later on. Still, I don't know where "beli" comes from.

Possibly scanlations but Oda probably romanized it somewhere as beli. SeaTerror (talk) 16:52, January 10, 2013 (UTC)

I believe so, but we have to found the reference.

How long should we wait before renaming the page? (Luckily, it shouldn't appear a lot on the wiki, since Mugiwara Franky introduced the symbol for that very reason.)

I'm not sure about how long we should wait, but from what I can tell, the "belly" romanization is correct. I checked the picture in the chapter against the one in my copy of volume 11. The differences are slight enough that it is clear Oda intended it to be belly. The one main difference was the small notch in what looked like an "I" in the chapter was made into a "Y" in the volume, the only change being that the notch was expanded. 16:24, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

The page also mentions a "Berry" romanization, since "Belly" was indeed used we should presume that "Berry" was also used at some point. I think we need to find out that one first, because if it's more recent it makes more sense using "Berry". Then we have also to figure out where Beli comes from.

Yeah, I agree with Levi, we should try and find the other romanizations before we rename the page. 16:54, January 12, 2013 (UTC)

@DP: in the raw I got, it is unambiguously "Belly". I added a picture to the article, figured out it was kinda informative. @Levi and JSD: I understand, that's why I asked "how long?". Cause except if someone is willing to scrutinize every single page in the manga looking for a "Berry" or "Beli" romanization, we cannot leave the page with an unsourced title for years…

Luckily, since I'm hunting quotes for a little project of mine on my wiki, I'm currently going through the whole series. It may takes a while, but I'll keep an eye open for this too, if when I'll be done I won't find any clue, we will come to a decision then. Give me one or two weeks. :)

But you just posted an image that gives the name of "Belly", you know it?

We need to find out where "Berry" was used and if "Beli" was even used.

@Levi: oh, that's great then. Don't rush it though, we can leave it as is for a few weeks…

Ok I finally read all chapters again... and sadly, I didn't find any image with other romanizations aside the one from chapter 95. The only thing worth looking at is in chapter 141: isn't there an "i" on the bill? It doesn't look like one to me, but I cannot say it for sure. Otherwise all times where money bills were shown they had always plain numbers and/or faces. Obviously I may have missed them and I didn't check special chapters/volumes or databooks, but that's how things are. What are we gonna do? Rename into "Belly"?


 * By the way, I didn't obviously checked the whole anime...

We'll keep it at Beli. SeaTerror (talk) 23:40, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

If "Beli" doesn't exist in the manga but "Belly" does, then it needs to be renamed to "Belly". 23:55, February 17, 2013 (UTC)

The only image says Beri and not Belly. SeaTerror (talk) 00:52, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Clearly the RAW image on the bottom says otherwise, and the image on the top isn't RAW, so we have seen a romanization of "Belly", not "Beri". Also, Leviathan, I couldn't find any Bellies on chapter 141. I might have missed it, but can you clarify where it's at? 01:36, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

The only thing that note says is 10,000 SeaTerror (talk) 01:38, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Belly. It says 10,000 Belly. Look under the "10,000" in the bill. 01:39, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

No it doesn't. You can't even see what it says. Only the last 3 letters stick out and that so called "o" looks like a capital D. That image can't be used because you can't make out what it says exactly. SeaTerror (talk) 01:45, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Can someone upload an image of this bill from 141? I can't find an example with high enough quality to read. 01:51, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

It's also entirely possible that the spelling came from something that's not a picture of the currency. It may have been romanized in a databook or something with people just talking about the currency. My point is that there may be other sources for different spellings that we should look into since searching the manga has proved fruitless. 01:56, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

The image where "Belly" was shown is the one added in this same discussion, this one from chapter 95. The one in chapter 141, is in the first page where Hiluluk is counting his money, but that was just a doubt of mine (I though it was possible to see an "I", but not the whole word anyway), it doesn't looks like any word is present on the bill... @JSD: "My point is that there may be other sources for different spellings that we should look into since searching the manga has proved fruitless." - my point is that unless you find other sources, "Belly" is the only one available. We used this unconfirmed romanization (beli/berry) for years now. Maybe an idea is looking in the page history for the user who add the translations/dub section and ask him to explain, but I doubt he is still active. @SeaTerror: I don't understand why are you coming out now saying it's not written "Belly" on the image we posted... we were already saying that one month ago and you didn't complain. Anyhow, I uploaded an high-contrast version, you can clearly read "...elly", the "B" is a bit unclear, but you can also see the decoration typical of, basically it's written "elly".

I honestly think we have enough to justify moving it to belly. 14:45, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, the only reason we waited was to find other options, but we weren't that lucky. I left a message to Angel Emfrbl‎ since in the third discussion in this same talk page, she mentions some debate on Wikipedia. Maybe she can explain where Beli comes from.

The image where "Belly" was shown doesn't actually exist since you cannot make out what it says exactly. Plus that image you just uploaded is enlarged and "enhanced" meaning that you had to edit it to try to make it more clear. The image cannot be used as a fact. Plus in that you can't make out a B or a beli symbol or an E. It would be pure speculation to rename it to Belly due to that image. SeaTerror (talk) 19:50, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Most of us can see the "Belly". Even I can see the "Belly" without Leviathan's high contrast image. Maybe it's just you. He edited the image so it's easier to see for the discussion. Even without the edit, I think most of the people here can make out the "Belly". Just because you can't doesn't mean nobody can. Anyway, unless Angel Emfrbl can show us a real "Beli", then "Beli" will have to go. 19:52, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EnhanceButton Says it all. You cannot zoom in on something and "enhance" it like that. It doesn't work like that. It means the image is edited and cannot be relied on. You cannot see the full text of either image regardless meaning it cannot be used. Well unless you want more speculation on the wiki. SeaTerror (talk) 19:57, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Do you know what contrast is? It's the difference between the dark and bright colors. It's something you can adjust on your TV, not some magical zoom-in "enhancement". All Levi did was change the contrast and zoom in a bit. It did not alter the image in a way that could change how the image looks, only highlight the difference between the background colors and the word. And as Nada says, it can be seen in the unaltered image anyways. 20:06, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Exactly Uknownada, everybody except SeaTerror can read "Belly". But the point that even you, ST, can read at least "...lly" which exclude without doubts Berry, Beri, Belli and Beli. So it's an evidence that at least those romanizations are wrong, if other images don't come up that means those are the speculations, not Belly. Don't try to be the speculation knight and don't bring up the fact I zoomed in, if you want I cannot zoom in at all, the zoom I used didn't altered the image at all, but it's not my image the issue here.

Because you cannot read the entire image it cannot be relied on. It is speculation to use something like that as a "fact". It would be the whole "George" Black incident all over again. Also editing contrast on an art image means it is edited. Contrast on a TV is something completely different. SeaTerror (talk) 20:13, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Changing contrast on TV is still editing. Since SeaTerror is obviously the only person who can't see "Belly", why don't we just change it now? Since there's no "Beli" to be found. 20:23, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

No it isn't. Its just fixing your TV. Doing anything to an image is actual editing. I guess if you want to ignore our speculation rules you can just move it to Belly. SeaTerror (talk) 20:28, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

I don't see why you guys just don't ask Klobis to confirm. 20:39, February 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Because Klobis isn't the only person who can see English letters. When it comes to Romanization, all we have to do is look at it. We're not looking at Japanese letters. If you can read this discussion, you can read what's on that bill, and that's all that matters with this. 20:53, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

What matters is that there may be another romanization somewhere else that you are overlooking. Stop trying to rush to change something to the official english translation and make sure you check everything. 21:01, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

No you can't. You cannot see what part of it says therefore it should not be used as a "fact". I thought the official English used "Berry". SeaTerror (talk) 21:01, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

From what I watched last night, I saw Belly. 21:19, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

The official English version, at least in the FUNimation dub, is "Berry". They might have changed it in the subs; FUNimation often changes the localizations on their subs, but that's not important. The point is that, no offense at all to you Klobis, Klobis isn't needed for this. Leviathan himself stated that he just re-read all the chapters and never found a "Beli". We don't need Klobis' confirmation when we can find it on our own, although his/her input would help. We're not discussing anything Japanese, we're discussing something romanized. What we need is someone who has seen "Beli" and to confirm "Beli" was written by Oda. Anybody can do that. 21:26, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

In five years no other official romanizations came up, so it's not really "rushing things"... I still like to hear what angel has to say, but Belly is safe. Sea, we can read Belly on the original image, my version was made just for you. If you don't like "edited images", then change the contrast without saving the picture, it will be just like on your tv. By the way, it's not like George Black because here we can(not) see the first two letters, but we can clearly see "...lly", so that's exclude without doubts Beli, Belli, Berry, Beri. In George Black case we never saw the first part to begin with, but since all romanization starts with "Be-" and everyone but you can read it, there is no issue at all. You have to admit that Beli cannot possibly be right, you cannot just say "I cannot read the first two letters so let's forget about it". Bring an image of "beli", that's the only case when we will keep this page as "Beli", otherwise tell us why Beli is less speculative. If I have to bet, Beli was used in the anime, but unless we find where it's just an hypothesis.

We have more than enough evidence that it's belly from images that weren't compromised. I don't see what the problem is. 22:36, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Technically the best solution would be to name it "Currency" or something along those lines. Obviously that isn't practical in this situation. I am saying that it is speculation to rename it because it is. You can't even see the "Be" in either image because both are dark smudges. SeaTerror (talk) 22:42, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

Since the currency is named, we should keep it with the named. If "Currency" should be used at all, it might be a redirect, but not as the title of the page. It's not speculation to name it "Belly" because "Belly" is very much visible on the image. It's not speculation, it's a simple fact. 22:48, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

It isn't visible at all. Only the last 3 letters are even visible. On the edited version that is. Also I think you need to look up in the dictionary the word "fact". SeaTerror (talk) 22:50, February 18, 2013 (UTC)

I don't mind renaming the page "Currency" since it's not only about one currency, but we have still to write "beli" in some way in the page (and in the wiki), that's the issue. Sea, you still haven't explain why "Beli" is not speculative, since it didn't appear anywhere in the series.

I never said it wasn't. I said it would be speculation to use "Belly" due to that image not being 100% clear. Using "Currency" would only work if we used the symbol image through out the wiki on everything. SeaTerror (talk) 00:25, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

The image is clear enough that "Belly" is visible. You even acknowledge that the last 3 letters are visible, so if anything is speculative, it isn't "Belly". As for renaming it "Currency", the page is mostly focused on Bellies and the other currency is only in one section, so it's not really significant enough to rename "Currency" if we're only going to focus on one. 00:35, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

No the image is clear enough that "lly" is visible. Not to mention it's only clear on the edited version. SeaTerror (talk) 00:38, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

You're the only person who can't see it in the unedited version, so I think that's just your problem, not the image's. 00:42, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

You're making it up about the unedited version. You literally cannot see anything because both images have the dark smudge. SeaTerror (talk) 00:47, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

''"And as Nada says, it can be seen in the unaltered image anyways." "Exactly Uknownada, everybody except SeaTerror can read "Belly"." "We have more than enough evidence that it's belly from images that weren't compromised."'' That's three people in this discussion, not including me, who can see the image just fine. I'm not making anything up, and I can see it. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean no one else can. 01:05, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

3 people isn't enough. I see Belly though. 01:23, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

3 people is more than one. That's enough to show that more than one person can see "Belly", which pretty much makes SeaTerror's claims of "you cannot see" or "you're making it up" completely moot. In fact, counting you and me, Galaxy, that makes 5. Do you still think no one can see the image clearly, SeaTerror? 01:37, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, we've renamed the page, which is fine at this point. Though Klobis isn't needed for any translation here, Klobis is very familiar with translation issues, and may be able to shed some light on where the other variants come from. Asking him certainly couldn't hurt.

And once we do have what believe is the correct romanization (which may be now), someone should edit the image used to show various coins and bills to show the correct spelling. 03:02, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

I changed the main image to the image that cannot be read image of Nami holding a bill. We can keep it like this just until a RAW version of the various coins and bills image can be acquired, or until somebody edits it with "Belly". 03:14, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Neither image says it. It says DARKSMUDGELLY. You are literally making it up. The other letters do not exist because you cannot see them due to the dark smudge. It doesn't matter what anybody says because it does not exist which is an 100% absolutely gauranteed fact. The BE is just not there and anybody who claims so is flat out lying. SeaTerror (talk) 03:44, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

I can't tell if I'm supposed to take that comment seriously, so I'll just assume the discussion is closed. Good day, gentlemen. 03:49, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

St, you need to flat out get your eyes checked. 03:50, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion is never closed unless it is in an archive. The only thing you can see in either image is a dark smudge. It's funny how you claim you can see anything from a dark smudge yet have not even tried to prove the non-existent "BE" even exists. SeaTerror (talk) 03:53, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion is closed when the subject matter is resolved. And things get resolved when most users agree on an issue. When one user refuses to let things resolve, then problems are created.

And the B is actually more clearly identified as the symbol. And the E can be recognized by the three points of the capital E. If you really still can't see it, I don't know what to tell you. 04:05, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Because it doesn't exist. It is not there. There is just a dark smudge. People are just seeing what they want to see. It happens all the time. Reminds me of all the people claiming that playing Stairway to Heaven backwards contains satanic lyrics. People hear or see something that doesn't exist only because other people claim it is there. SeaTerror (talk) 04:08, February 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * So what, you just think Oda decided to draw a smudge and write "LLY"? He obviously meant to write out the word which is also the name of the currency. Use your eyes and try to see more than a smudge. Stop trying to be difficult because you just want us to use some fan spelling of "Beli". Literally everyone else on this talk has been able to see it: It's there. 04:14, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

I've been saying either one is actually speculation. You cannot make out the full word so it should not be used as a "fact". People are seeing something that is not there when all there is is a smudge. That's all it comes down to. The 2nd image shouldn't even be used for anything since it was edited in the first place. SeaTerror (talk) 04:17, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Sea, that image (the unedited one) was uploaded one month ago and everybody immediately acknowledged that "Belly" was written there, it was used as reference in the article after all. You did not say anything then. Now you come out saying that you cannot read it? Well, through all this discussion you just said that you wasn't able to read it and just denied everybody's else points without saying more. So since "being able to read it" is not something that can be proven for you and everybody but you can read it, get over it. It's fun that we are having this discussion when was exactly this behaviour of yours that brought up your ban forum.

The image was only uploaded to show that the banknote said "SOMETHING" You cannot see a "BE" because there is a dark smudge. Whatever is written there is hidden. My ban forum was only opened because of a grudge (at least the last time.) The issue with this image is the word Belly doesn't exist since it is speculation to say that a BE is where a dark smudge is. SeaTerror (talk) 18:37, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

It's not speculation if you can read it. Everyone but you can read it. It's not speculation. I don't know what else to say here. This conversation should be over. 18:41, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Because you are seeing what you WANT to see. The reason you think the BE exists is because you can see the LLY (only in the edited image). Think of it as a a subliminal message where if somebody tells you something and you believe it only because you were influenced by that person into thinking it is there. Like my example of Stairway to Heaven from earlier. That is all it comes down to. SeaTerror (talk) 18:56, February 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not "seeing what I want to see". I am familiar with this phenomenon of psychology, and I've accounted for it in my evaluation of the original image. I've looked closely at the other letters for many minutes, and the only letters they could possibly be are B and E. I've been objective in viewing the image, and I assume that it says anything other than "Belly", but when I closely examine it, the only thing it can say is Belly. Don't assume that I haven't tried to be objective, and more importantly, don't assume that I'm stupid. 19:05, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

SeaTerror, I think you're just not seeing what you don't want to see. This is like your Stairway to Heaven example, except reversed. We can see everything, so obviously it's not "seeing what I want to see". I think you're the one with the problem. You don't want to see it, so you can't. Or you choose to not admit that you can see it, because doing so would not only admit that you're wrong but also admit that you can see something you don't want to. 20:02, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

No you "see" it because you saw the LLY. So in your minds you made up the dark smudge saying "BE" You see the LLY so you assume you also see the "BE" when you cannot see anything but a dark smudge from when oda drew it. SeaTerror (talk) 20:07, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, if you look closely at the dark smudge, the "BE" is just BARELY visible. At least, the "E" is. Use the high contrast image and a pair of glasses to help you see. And before you say the contrast image shouldn't be used, I'll just tell you once again that that image is only used to help you see. It's to assist you in the discussion, as you're the only one who needs help. So please, find the "E". 20:14, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Or don't. Again, you're the only one still arguing here. 20:30, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

The high contrast image was edited and can't be used. Either way it still is a dark smudge in that image too. You literally cannot see anything but are seeing what you want to see due to the LLY. SeaTerror (talk) 20:31, February 19, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry guys, I forgot about this discussion. I'm late but I'll quickly explain what I explained on the chat.

Basically, "Beli" was chosen because in the wikipedia days (this is waaaay back in 2006) there was no solid evidence to say what it was. We also had evidence for both use of "l" and "r" spellings at the time, note that now in 2013 I don't have a record of the stuff brought up anymore... Mostly because I've gone through 2 computers at least since 2006 and also because a lot of the wikipedia stuff doesn't exist anymore.

Universally at *some* point it was decided between our business at wikipedia and the wikia that in regards to the the currency, that it wasn't important on the spelling due to the conflicting evidence for either use of "l" and "r" in the name. The same applied for "Belly" and "Berry". What was more important in this case was the articles all linked to the right page. A lot of this discussion no longer exists, much like the evidence for things back in 2006, because good old wikipedia destroyed half of our early works while we were still sorting out the transfer from wikipedia to wikia.

Looking at the smudge, I'd read the word as "Belly" myself and the pronunciation in Japanese is a "be" sound. Therefore I'd go with that myself. BUT I will not rule out all other spelling (Beli, Beri, Berry, Belly) because I had this discussion in the past about the spelling.

I will note though about the past discussion... We were still seeing the legacy of 4Kids and therefore there *may* had been some resentment towards use of certain words ("Navy" has always been one) because of it. Long story short, "Beli" may have been chosen as a knee-jerk reaction to 4Kids... "Belly/Berry" I think it they went with??? I can't remember. Either way, its worth noting here.

So yeah, thats the whole story about the use of "beli" and some of the issues with it and the reasons we went with it. I still maintain to this date on this particular one its not worth arguing over and that so long as the pages all go to the same place its fine. I know editors want to always be accurate here and based on that image you have decided "lly" is correct, but there were a few other older images contradicting this that have long since been lost/forgotten and I don't know they are in relation to Oda's work nor desire to bring them up at this point.

They may have even come from data books, and as I've said before it goes; Manga -> SBS -> data books -> anime -> English dub in that respects with names, I've mentioned this before. Therefore if its in the data books anything Oda uses in the manga will automatically be considered more correct then the use of "beli/berry/beri/etc". One-Winged Hawk (talk) 09:02, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, though according to Leviathan, the currency was never romanized in an SBS. He said he had checked the whole manga, and this "Belly" banknote is the closest and clearest romanization found, though he never checked a databook. But you're right, the manga has higher priority of what we use. So since it was spelled "Belly" in the manga, that's what we use. At this point, there's still no evidence that "Beli" was ever a romanization, and that's what most of this discussion was about. 16:39, March 1, 2013 (UTC)


 * Don't count too much on what I said... it's very easy to miss something. But again, I couldn't find anything, I was hoping that Angel would tell us the link to Wikipedia's discussion about this, but it seems it was deleted long ago. I honestly suspect the other romanizations are present in the anime, rather then the manga.

Name 2: Electric Boogaloo
I have found another romanization: you can read "Berry" on the cup on Chapter 78's cover. This one is a little older then "Belly" found on the actual bill in chapter 95, but it's probably more commonly used among fans. Though the pun will be lost.

I personally prefer berry, but would lean toward keeping Belly since its spelling was more recent. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 02:44, March 29, 2020 (UTC)

I'm actually not proposing anything, just reporting the new finding. IIRC "Belly" was up until now the only romanization properly cited in the original manga (beside adaptations), so now we have another one. If the page is fine as it is, you can remove the active discussion.

Chapter 78 Cover
So, SeaTerror is claiming it is obvious the can there is for a paint whose color is "berry" and not for belly notes. That is not obvious at all, and it is a fringe interpretation. However, I wouldn't dare to make that claim without analysing the actual cover.

When we look at the cover, he isn't just painting, he is selling the paintings. We know this because it is a street sale with various paintings being showcased, because of belly notes flying and due to the price shown above Usopp.

Note that the belly notes' flow directs us exactly to the can, as if they've come from there and were carried by the wind that is going to the left. How do I know the wind is going to the left and not to the right? Because the rug below Usopp is getting carried to the left (see on the right). Also because above the wall we can see the direction of the leaves flying, the inclination of the treets dand the direction of the clouds, given to us by the sharp angles on the right of such clouds. Also, we can see the girl's hair flowing to the left, as well as the skirt. Therefore, the origin of the notes is at least at the level of the can.

Now, where does the paint on the palette come from then? Directly to the right of the can, we see a box with actual paint tubes. So we know the origin of the paint and we have a clear indication of the origin of the belly notes. The obvious conclusion here is that the "berry" can is there for money and that the paint on the palette comes from the paint tubes. Saying the can is there for the "berry" color is against the evidence. If this is met with no resistance, I will undo the edit. StoopidGuy (talk) 05:44, August 13, 2020 (UTC)

"Now, where does the paint on the palette come from then? Directly to the right of the can, we see a box with actual paint tubes." Nice speculation with no actual evidence. Usopp is painting. The can of paint is a can of paint that has nothing to do with the currency. Which is the whole point of this discussion. The currency has only been romanized as one way with the currency bill. SeaTerror (talk) 09:36, August 13, 2020 (UTC)

Not really speculation, but deduction. There's a source for the paint and a source for the flying belly bills, all after understanding the context of it being a sale. It's based on evidence. Your thing with "berry" being the name of a color Usopp is using is what is purely speculative. Tell us what is the source of the bills in that scenario, other than the can itself. Tell us that the function of a can with "berry" written in a street art sale is. What is the speculation, a color named "berry" or a different romanization of belly being used by Usopp in a can where money is in?

Also, the text you erased exposed the possibility of that not being a romanization intended to be seen as correct anyway. So even if it was the color "berry" that Usopp is now using as a tip-jar and not something written by him, that would still be Usopp's decision to showcase it like that, therefore under "artistic license on his part".

Now considering the can the source of the paint when we see a box full of tubes, therefore implying the bills aren't coming out of the can, plus claiming the can was used for the "berry" color and not as signifying belly is dismissing evidence.StoopidGuy (talk) 10:13, August 13, 2020 (UTC)

You have clearly never been in strong winds before. Strong winds can blow anything from any direction. Your "deduction" is nothing but speculation. I removed it because it said the wiki was using it as evidence of "Berry" being an alternate romanization of the currency which is nothing but speculation since it wasn't shown in the actual manga like the bill. SeaTerror (talk) 18:23, August 13, 2020 (UTC)

Everything that moves there is moving to the left, that's not an argument - you have no clue in that cover of anything vulnerable to the wind moving to the right or any other direction. You have also shown inability to respond to my questions and requests. The romanization in that can is trivia worthy, you could've changed it so that it wasn't seen as a clear romanization of the word belly, but as an instance where "berry" was associated with money; instead of removing it on the grounds of some "berry" color.StoopidGuy (talk) 18:54, August 13, 2020 (UTC)

ST, you dismissing an argument as speculative and then countering with an argument that is blatant speculation itself does nothing to convince anyone. Not to mention your argument is nothing more than a basic assumption.

I agree with StoopidGuy's view. I'd also add that paint cans are predominantly for painting structures, not pictures on a canvas. As far as I'm aware, portrait artists typically use paint tubes, which are seen in Usopp's briefcase.

At the very least, even if we don't say with 100% certainty that the "Berry" romanization is referring to Belly, it's still worth noting on the page as there is zero evidence that it's a paint color. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 03:10, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

There is zero evidence the paint can is associated with money. Complete blatant speculation.

Yes paint cans with the paint on the label is totally zero evidence since they clearly do not exist in any form in fiction or real life. SeaTerror (talk) 18:50, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

I provided enough evidence and I exposed my arguments on the topic, yet I haven't seen you trying to counter their validity, only small nitpicks that were easily countered. You also fail to see that your argument is not based on any clue on the cover itself, you needed to talk about unrelated events like strong winds in real life - even though I showed how everything was going to the left and you did not even try to disprove that (also because it's impossible). And then again, I already said this - even if your "berry" color speculation is right, Usopp still chose to use that can to put the money in, therefore the romanization "berry" is seen associated with money, which is trivia worthy due to it being similar to the "belly" romanization anyway. So even if you happen to be right about the color (which is making more assumptions than looking at the cover and seeing the belly bills and the paint tubes), you are not right in removing the information, as it only needed to be worded differently.StoopidGuy (talk) 19:08, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

Yes there are bills but there's no evidence that they came from the paint can itself. You countered nothing since you clearly do not understand how strong winds work. Anything can be blown in any direction that the wind is blowing from. That's how wind works. SeaTerror (talk) 20:08, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

There's also no evidence that that's a paint can. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 20:36, August 14, 2020 (UTC)

Other than the fact he's painting? SeaTerror (talk) 06:17, August 15, 2020 (UTC)

He's also selling his paintings and there are belly slips in the air, so by that logic there is evidence that it's a money can. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 06:19, August 15, 2020 (UTC)

So then you have also never been in a strong wind before. SeaTerror (talk) 06:38, August 15, 2020 (UTC)

It's an alternate spelling for the currency. And that's not a paint can. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 13:47, August 15, 2020 (UTC)

The official English alternate spelling. Never used by Oda himself. Also yes it is. SeaTerror (talk) 18:42, August 15, 2020 (UTC)

"Berry" is present in the Japanese version, too. It's like Oda's flipping between Big Mom/Mam. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 20:03, August 15, 2020 (UTC)

SeaTerror, your evidence for it being a paint can - "he's painting, also "berry" may be used as a color."

Evidence for it being a can from whatever origin being used as a tip-jar - "he's selling the paintings, belly bills are flying from it and there's another source for the paint he is using. Also paint cans are used for large structures."

However, you say the first is evidence-based and the second is speculation. You're just dismissing clear evidence in the cover to support a fringe interpretation you personally have, even though there's more than enough evidence to determine yours is not the interpretation the cover is providing.

Also your counter about the wind is only valid when you provide any clue from the cover for any object vulnerable to the wind moving to the right. And even if you have one, all the other objects that show any clear indication of direction are moving to the left (I've shown several in the first comment here). The conclusion is this: the evidence is the general movement of the wind is to the left, and as the bills are flowing either into the can (to the right) or from the can (to the left), there's more evidence for the bills coming from the can than the contrary. So you can't claim you have outside knowledge about the climate in the cover, because you have no clue for it in the cover itself.StoopidGuy (talk) 20:15, August 15, 2020 (UTC)

The word berry has never been used in the manga other than on the paint can so it has never actually been used in the Japanese version. You claiming the bills are flying from it is pure speculation on your part. There is no evidence for that claim. SeaTerror (talk) 06:11, August 16, 2020 (UTC)

If they aren't flying due to the wind, why are they flying in the first place, in a place where every object vulnerable to the wind is moving with the wind? Also why do they have a similar curvature to the leaves that are also flying with the wind (with the uppermost part leaning to the left)? Are you trying to disprove the existence of the wind in the first place, SeaTerror? All I've just talked about is evidence, something lacking on your side of the argument.

Your argument is just "your argument is speculation" without actually providing any type of counter argument; and then also claiming that that can is a paint can (for paint used in large structures) and that it is the "berry" color. I think you're quitting trying to prove your point, as you're not continuing with a proper counter argument or with any evidence to disprove our claims. Nor have you provided any evidence to back the claims you are making, which are being questioned - "he is painting" is as much of a piece of evidence as "he is selling the paintings". Therefore, unless you provide anything substantial from the cover, you are showing inability to present any evidence for your claims. I've asked more than once for evidence that disproves the validity of the evidence I've been providing, and all I've seen from the other side of the argument is "no evidence, that's speculation".StoopidGuy (talk) 06:31, August 16, 2020 (UTC)

Ok you're just simply living up to your username then. The wind is blowing anything in the same direction. There is no evidence the bills came from the paint can. That is how wind works. You clearly do not understand what wind is. Claiming that they came from the paint can is speculation. It is that simple. SeaTerror (talk) 07:13, August 16, 2020 (UTC)

Personal attack by implying "stoopid" is not only a username, something obviously against the rules, and continuing to ignore the rest of the evidence show how this isn't going anywhere. Not surprinsingly, my last comment was still not addressed fully. StoopidGuy (talk) 07:46, August 16, 2020 (UTC)

The "evidence" you posted by flat out stating they came from the paint can you mean? You cannot prove your own speculation about that. There is no evidence at all that that's where the bills came from. Unless we go with your own logic and that the leaves also came from the can since apparently you think that's where everything came from while being blown by the wind. You can also see a wooden case getting blown too. I guess that also came from the can. SeaTerror (talk) 09:31, August 16, 2020 (UTC)

It's a money-collection tin can, not a paint can.

Now, with that silly argument out of the way and with a majority favoring the inclusion of a note, I propose adding this version:

"**The romanizaton 'Berry' does appear in a cover illustration; however, it is part of the non-canon Animal Theater cover series."

It addresses the small inconsistency from over 20 years ago and heads off any future squabbling about the canon spelling. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 20:07, August 16, 2020 (UTC)

I appreciate the new evidence and I agree with that alternative. StoopidGuy (talk) 20:46, August 16, 2020 (UTC)

That's still assuming that's where the money came from when there's no evidence of that. SeaTerror (talk) 18:16, August 17, 2020 (UTC)

The money floating away is irrelevant since there is money visibly in the can. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 19:52, August 17, 2020 (UTC)

No there isn't. That's the lid of the can. Which it wouldn't matter anyway even if there was since the statement is speculative regardless. SeaTerror (talk) 22:21, August 18, 2020 (UTC)