Talk:Nui Nui no Mi/Archive 1

Trivia
Who keeps erasing the corrections on the trivia section?? Kin'emon and Van der Decken also call their devil fruits curse/spell/magic. Vazelos3 (talk) 13:02, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

That trivia isn't needed, really. 22:14, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Staw; 1st-time instances is okay, but such type of trivia shouldn't go onto 2nd, 3rd, etc.
 * 海賊☠姫 (talk) 22:26, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Moved
Who the hell moved this? Just because he didn't say fruit doesn't mean it can be moved without discussion. Unless someone can come up with an award-winning argument why it shouldn't be moved back, I'm moving it back. 21:58, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

i think it may have been User:SeaTerror but im not sure, anyway ill recreate the page myself-- 22:10, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

WTF dude, you made a page with a similar name because this one is locked? Are you f**cking kidding me? 22:23, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

calm down, seaterror deleted the old page so i remade it. if the page i made needs to be deleted too then that should be an easy thing to do-- 22:25, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

SeaTerror...didn't...delete...the...page...because...he is...not...an...admin...on...this...wiki... 22:29, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

well he deleted all content from the page and made it redirect to Leo, so thats basically deleting the page.-- 23:01, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

so why is this a redirect? we have plenty of information, we even have a name.

cause seaterror decided to make it into a redirect-- 23:38, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

People are blind SeaTerror (talk) 01:42, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

true but then it was turned back-- 02:03, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

If it's a redirect, add information in the redirect, don't create random pages. 08:52, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

klobis is the one who did it not seaterror 10:42, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Maybe if you lack a "no Mi", then it can't be proved to be a Devil Fruit yet. Like the Mato Mato no Mi, maybe we should either wait until a proper source says so, or at least a video game, or move the page to another name: "Nui Nui Power" or something. 15:51, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

But we didn't wait on the Mato Mato no Mi. It's the exact same deal here. Shirahoshi called Decken's power a curse, and Leo said it was some kind of spell. A curse is just another kind of spell. We already know from Fishman Island and Kin'emon that not all cultures are as aware of Devil Fruits as most of them are. If it didn't have the same naming scheme as the other Devil Fruits I'd agree, but it's the Mato Mato no Mi all over again. 16:00, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

obviously a devil fruit, what else could it be-- 17:08, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

Well, Devil Fruits are said to be cursed or something (look way back in the first few chapters or so...). 01:59, June 18, 2013 (UTC)

It seems that we've come to a conclusion, however, there's been edit wars again. I know it's not their fault, since I doubt they were aware of this discussion. I think the best option is to open a poll and add it to Category:Open Polls. That way, everyone will be aware of it and we can come to a definite conclusion. 10:50, June 20, 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that a poll is needed but I believe there is a little more to be discussed. I went over the Japanese text and I noticed that it says Nui Nui "power" instead of "ability" which could be used as an argument against Nui Nui no Mi. Other than that the naming scheme, words and actions of Leo point to it being a Devil Fruit. MasterDeva (talk) 13:15, June 20, 2013 (UTC)

DancePowderer forged Japanese name for the "fruit" in the box. (Firstly DFs names are katakana, not hiragana) It should be N/A. --Klobis (talk) 01:42, June 21, 2013 (UTC)

I didn't forge anything. I wasn't even on here when the page was made so don't point fingers if you're just going to lie. 04:03, June 21, 2013 (UTC)

Can't we just settle this once and for all by having a poll? 08:31, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

A poll is not needed. 23:03, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

Since we're not getting anywhere, a poll does work fine. 23:36, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * My three suggestions are:
 * Redirect under Leo's section.
 * Keep as Nui Nui no Mi.
 * Move to Nui Nui Power.
 * These three are the best options I can think of for the vote. 23:37, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

keep as nui nui no mi-- 23:45, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for the text wall, but I wanted to do this for the sake of comparison:

Nui Nui no Mi:
 * Has the name of a Devil Fruit (although the double word structure is common to many Japanese onomatopoeia, and it was written in hiragana, not katakana as it should be).
 * Abilities appear to be those of a Devil Fruit - no other explanation.
 * Has not been expressly confirmed to be a Devil Fruit (abilities not referred to as 能力, person not referred to as 能力者).
 * Obviously a Devil Fruit - not considered speculation.

Fujitora (Before Chapter 705):
 * Has the name of an admiral (Colour + Animal in Kanji, furigana for colour in hiragana, furigana for animal in katakana)
 * Demonstrated strength matching that of an admiral - other possible explanations.
 * Has the appearance of an admiral (famous Japanese actor's face).
 * Was sent to Dressrosa by Akainu as a response to hearing Smoker's report which held Kuzan's suggestion to send the admirals.
 * Was not expressly confirmed to be an admiral until 705.
 * Obviously an admiral - considered speculation.

If obviousness was the test for speculation, more details about Fujitora would have been written before his infobox confirmation in Chapter 705. If obviousness was the test, Absalom's page would contain a paragraph about his recent activities as Absa the reporter, unless there's another possible theory as to why an undetected person is sailing away from Kid's hideout in a ship with Thriller Bark on the sails. In both of those cases, you were able to lock pages and prevent information being added that had not been expressly confirmed. With the Nui Nui, you've been rushing you create a page where the Japanese name hasn't been confirmed. Although it's very likely that it will be the ヌイヌイの実, the evidence available also suggests that Marco's fruit will be called the Tori Tori no Mi, Model Phoenix (トリトリの実 モデル：不死鳥（フェニックス）), yet that page has been deleted whenever someone tries to create it, and the last few years have passed without anyone crying over the fact that the info's in Marco's Abilities & Powers section. I really don't understand why there's so much inconsistency in how these matters are approached by the wiki. 00:20, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

The difference between those two has to do with room for error. I'll admit, when I first saw that blind guy go aggro on those guys my initial thought was maybe he was Fujitora. But I didn't do or say anymore because there was too much room for error. For all we knew, one of the Gorosei died and the blind guy was his replacement and he just happened to be on holiday there. You could argue both cases, from what we knew at the time, about just as easily. But with the "Nui Nui Power", given what we know about what it does, its disyllabic naming scheme, and different cultural aversions we've encountered regarding Devil Fruit (the Kuja tribe thinking the Boas' powers came from a gorgon curse, Decken's power called a curse by Shirahoshi, Kin'emon and Momonosuke's strange fruits and sorcery), it falls perfectly in line with the other three instances. Normally, I'm all for discretion when it comes to this kind of thing, but there comes a point when declared certainty is safe. Decken gave every indication he was a DF user, including his caution around water, but no one actually said it was a Devil Fruit. But from what we knew, we could safely say it was a DF. If I told you I had something that was huge, made of metal, hauled cargo long distances, with wheels that ran on rails, you would instantly conclude that I was talking about a train. Same thing with Decken, and less so but still significantly Leo, every indication of a Devil Fruit, without someone actually saying the phrase "Devil Fruit". 01:19, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

The 'margin of error' argument doesn't really work for Absa(lom). I don't see any other reasonable explanation there.

I'll leave aside Fujitora for now, since it is easier to say things in hindsight, but even when he hadn't been physically introduced, the name 'Fujitora' and the context made it clear that that person was an Admiral (looking at the talk page, it appears that was accepted, although it was still treated as speculation in the article).

I'd probably have less of an issue with this if your speculation policy was consistent but... it's clearly not. At the very least, this article should be in the conjectural-titled articles category, because the Japanese name's unknown (Oda might have a super-secret reason for using hiragana that we don't know about, or he might not). 06:28, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

There's really no reason to speculate. Why the heck can't you guys just wait for further details before rushing ahead and making a page for this. We're supposed to be an encyclopedia based on fact, but speculation.

Not to mention it isn't written like normal devil fruits, as pointed out by Klobis above. There's no need to rush things at all. 07:47, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

We aren't speculative. Leo said my "Nui Nui powers". What's speculative? 08:02, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

The fact that you don't know 100% that it's a devil fruit. Once again, read what Klobis said. It wasn't written with normal devil fruit characters. 08:10, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

We do know it's a devil fruit. I don't know why you people believe that we're speculating. Why do you want to wait and what are you waiting for? Confirmation? He already stated that he has "Nui Nui powers". Nui Nui powers=Nui Nui no Mi. Is it so hard to understand? I hope that we won't have to poll it because that will be the dumbest poll ever. 08:23, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

Because you still are failing to realize that it wasn't written the same way as other devil fruits. Unless you can give me 100% proof that it's a devil fruit power, and by that, I mean an actual statement in the manga, then it's simply speculation. That's not what a wikia should be about at all. 11:17, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

Here's the problem, not everything is going to be flat out stated in the manga like that. There are other cases on here that provide just as much evidence without true confirmation yet we consider them Devil Fruit users. Take Epoida and Onigumo for example. Both of them transform partly into a caterpillar and a spider respectively. Now, during this time, not only are there abilities not referred to, but they are not referred to in any way. They don't talk about their abilities and neither does anyone else. And yet we call them Zoan users without protest. Their powers are seen, but never mentioned. Here, we have a guy with a unique ability that can't be explained in any other way. He actually names his ability and speaks of it, unlike the previously mentioned exhibits A and B. My question is, why do we doubt the origin of Leo's powers and not the abilities of two users whose abilities and never referred to verbally? 12:50, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

I forgot this bullshit still existed. Can we please move this farce back to no Mi? 02:30, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

Actually, since they officially called it "Nui Nui no Chikara" but not "Nui Nui no Mi" yet, that's why it's like this. Why not just wait for a while longer? 02:35, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

Why do we have to feign ignorance? What else could it be? Kin'emon's gonna call his ability a power, despite referring to it as a fruit. Are we going to name that the whatever whatever no chikara too? There's no point to playing it safe here when it is so painfully obvious. This is just another matter of people being scared to act because something wasn't stated outright, probably because it didn't have to be. Also, it was moved crappily anyway. 02:42, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with DP, it's rather painfully clear that Leo's abilities is of a Devil Fruit. I mean, really, sewing people and things to a flat surface without harming them? 02:45, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

We're not feigning ignorance. It's just we never heard them actually say "Nui Nui no Mi", and therefore cannot put the kanji and romanization there accordingly, therefore making this a conjectural-titled page if we choose "no Mi". However, they did say "no Chikara", so that counts as an official (for now). If the next game or whatnot comes out with "no Mi", then we can turn it so. Otherwise, we'd be going with "Tori Tori no Mi, Model: Phoenix", since it is so-called "obvious". 05:49, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

It's not like we have no idea what the Kanji for "no mi" is. We have dozens of other devil fruits, all with the same Kanji. The conjectural part would be the fruit name, not the word fruit. I see no reason not to leave it as-is. 13:20, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

Same situation as was here. Talk:Donquixote_Rosinante We decided not to add the romanization and other stuff because it wasn't actually stated in the manga. SeaTerror (talk) 19:02, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

But it was spelled, meaning it was the same as being there without being said. And yet we have this problem here. It's foolish to wait on this when it's so painfully obvious. It makes us look like we only rely on information we're spoon-fed rather than being brave enough to make our own conclusions about it. What else could it be? We don't have to add the no mi to the page, but we can at least move it like we did with Rosinante. 02:12, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

That's fine. My response was to Just anyway since he said to add the no mi part which we wouldn't be able to do. SeaTerror (talk) 03:31, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

Any objections to moving the page but not touching the Japanese? 03:47, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

The Rosinante business was solved when his full name appeared in the drawer of Sengoku's desk (which also included an infobox with RAW Japanese when the document was seen). But this case, if we don't add the Japanese, then it is considered conjectural (which we don't want). They did not say "no Mi" yet so we can't add it ourselves lest it becomes speculation (no matter how much indication says otherwise), but they did say "no Chikara", so that counts as non-conjectural. 04:46, February 10, 2015 (UTC)
 * The "Donquixote Rosinante" full name issue, check this image. 04:51, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Yata. The current way we have it is fine; The page is Nui Nui no Mi but title display and everything else says Nui Nui no Chikara. 16:46, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

Really? Cuz no it isn't. Check the page again. 04:03, February 12, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah it is, the page is named Nui Nui no Mi, but with the Displaytitle template, it is shown as Nui Nui no Chikara. 04:22, February 12, 2015 (UTC)

Then could you please fix that? Because I have no idea how to do that. 04:25, February 12, 2015 (UTC)

Fix as in get rid of it? We haven't dealt with the issue yet. "no Mi" is unofficial and conjectural, "no Chikara" has an official source. 04:29, February 12, 2015 (UTC)

Then we just do what we did with Rosinante, change the title but leave the Japanese out of it. 04:44, February 12, 2015 (UTC)

Rosinante has been cleared, his full name in Japanese and English. And doing so for here is conjectural and, let's face it, speculation. Chikara, however, is not speculation, since they actually said it. 04:47, February 12, 2015 (UTC)

I literally cannot believe this discussion. It EXPLICITLY STATES in the beginning paragraph that this is from a DEVIL FRUIT. If it's from a devil fruit, then it should have NO MI at the end. If we don't explicity know that this is from a devil fruit, then why the heck is that in the front paragraph? Plus, the info on Leo's page clearly states that this is a Devil Fruit. What are the odds that a single dwarf out of hundreds would have the natural ability to create stitches out of ABSOLUTELY NOTHING? Mansherry's power was confirmed as a fruit, and the odds are Leo's is too. And the thing is, they're dwarves. They clearly don't understand Devil Fruits. And Oda is probably not going to waste a line of dialogue just for a character to say something that we should already know. Because I seriously doubt that any human knows explicitly about Leo's fruit. The only way we could get confirmation is if someone asks Oda in an SBS. We did this with Mato Mato, and what have we to lose on the slight chance we're wrong? If anything, this is only making the wiki worse because any references to this in other articles explicitly state this is a Devil Fruit, but calling this a "Power" basically means all the info on the other pages is false! At the very least, can we have a poll? This discussion has been going on over a year, and what have we gained? Can we at least settle this once and for all? 23:59, February 13, 2015 (UTC)

Kaido I dare you to find Leo using "no mi" used anywhere in the manga in original Japanese. SeaTerror (talk) 01:15, February 14, 2015 (UTC)

Of course Leo wouldn't have used "no Mi" because I seriously doubt the dwarves even know what Devil Fruits are, as I pointed out in my previous response. Vander Decken didn't use "no Mi," so what difference does it make if a character uses those words or not? It's very clear that this is a Devil Fruit, not just a freak special ability. 02:04, February 14, 2015 (UTC)

Because the Japanese doesn't exist. We cannot add Japanese that does not exist. SeaTerror (talk) 01:47, February 14, 2015 (UTC)

It exists on every single devil fruit page we have. Why not just use that? 06:02, February 14, 2015 (UTC)

Because that would be speculation on our behalf. It'd be like creating a page called "Tori Tori no Mi, Model: Phoenix" based on Marco's epithet and the preexisting phrase "Tori Tori no Mi". 06:28, February 14, 2015 (UTC)

No Yata. It wouldn't be speculation but it would be posting a false fact. The chapter did not use no Mi therefore we cannot use it since the Japanese did not exist in that chapter. Exactly the same thing we did with Corazon. SeaTerror (talk) 09:36, February 14, 2015 (UTC)

It's totally different from Marco's case. We already have "Nui Nui", the only thing we'd be adding is "no Mi" which is a phrase we've seen for just about every other Devil Fruit. While for Marco we'd be assuming a lot of things because we've never seen anything along the lines of "Model:Phoenix".

And for Corazon, we needed to understand his familial relation before we could add his name. All we need to do for this is have enough evidence to assume it's devil fruit. I think we got enough evidence for that ages ago. 14:13, February 14, 2015 (UTC)

It's clear that we are not going to reach an agreement like this. Can we settle this once and for all with a poll? 15:27, February 14, 2015 (UTC)

No we didn't add it there because the Japanese did not exist in the chapter. SeaTerror (talk) 18:24, February 14, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Kaido, it's rather clear we're not going to reach an agreement through discussing. We should settle this with a poll. 00:39, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

What's the difference between mantra and haki? Cultural naming. It's surprising how controversial this single Devil Fruit name is. 08:10, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Poll Discussion
Alright, so here's the poll. 1 week test poll, 1 week poll. Right now I've got 2 options, and they are about the pagename only. If we need other questions, we can add those. 00:45, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

We already said to use Nui Nui no Mi but to leave the Japanese off. The poll is wrong. SeaTerror (talk) 00:48, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Uhh... what? I don't think anyone is arguing for the page to be renamed. This is about the displaytitle and all that. 13:08, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, this discussion was never about renaming the page...

13:10, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Really? Because the display title is the same as the name right now. 13:29, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

No, it's not. The page name is Nui Nui no Mi, but the title is displayed as Nui Nui no Chikara. 13:35, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Ok, here's an idea: Instead of telling me "the poll isn't right", go right ahead and make the poll correct yourselves! These test polls are for people to collaborate on polls, not "wait for JSD to agree/do it all".

Clearly, I don't understand the core concept here, so how on earth is it my job to fix it? Take some initiative instead of complaining. 14:48, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Alright, I changed the poll up quite a bit. It now has separate sections for what the subject will be called in the article and whether or not we should form the Japanese for the infobox. Thoughts? 16:26, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

So is the first and second option for the displaytitle just the difference on how the overall title would appear? Like when I look up in my browser, I'd see Nui Nui no Chikara or Nui Nui no Mi, despite whatever we put in the infobox? 16:38, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

Yes. If the second option wins, the title will be displayed as "Nui Nui no Mi", but the rest of the article will refer to it as Nui Nui no Chikara. 16:44, February 15, 2015 (UTC)

OK, I'm really confused now. When I look this page up the title is clearly Nui Nui no Chikara, as seen here (sorry for the bad quality): http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b573/amateragi/ea8ba251-4341-4a09-870d-cca691b72461_zpsqkcsydhm.png But when I search up this page "Nui Nui no Mi" appears in the search box but yet when I click on it it goes to "Nui Nui no Chikara" without a redirect being shown. However, when I edit it or go to the talk page, it appears as "Nui Nui no Mi." WTH is going on here? 02:57, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

The option we discussed the most is missing. Nui Nui no Mi article title but the rest of the article would be no Chikara. Exactly like what we did with Corazon's article. SeaTerror (talk) 03:56, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

Okay, to straighten everything up, the page name is called "Nui Nui no Mi". However, due to the DisplayTitle template, we see it as "Nui Nui no Chikara". The poll's primary reason consists of whether we remove the DisplayTemplate or not. If we decide to not use the DisplayTitle, we then decide whether we refer this power as "Nui Nui no Mi" or "Nui Nui no Chikara" within the page's contents. Am I right here? 04:15, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I'm still for just declaring it to be no Mi everywhere and adding a note about the whole "no Chikara" thing somewhere on the page. I don't want to hide what is so painfully obviously a Devil Fruit power. Where's my poll option for that? 04:25, February 16, 2015 (UTC)


 * Closest would be the third option. 04:44, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

Well, this sure seems to cause some confusion.

@Yata: Yes, you are right.

@ST: It's not missing. That would be the second option.

@JSD: That's the third option.

Let's go through all the options once more:

1. Title(#) and article contents call it "Nui Nui no Chikara"

2. Title says "Nui Nui no Mi", article contents call it "Nui Nui no Chikara".

3. Title and article contents call it "Nui Nui no Mi".

(#)DisplayTitle template. THE PAGENAME IS NUI NUI NO MI AND WILL STAY AS SUCH REGARDLESS OF THE POLL. Got it? A DisplayTitle template simply changes how the title appears at the top of the page. If you look at the URL you can see that the actual pagename is still Nui Nui no Mi. 12:27, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

No it isn't. "Nui Nui no Chikara", but don't use a diplaytitle template." What I said would be "Nui Nui no Mi", but don't use a diplaytitle template." SeaTerror (talk) 18:22, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

The DisplayTitle template is what makes the title appear as "Nui Nui no Chikara". Without it, it would say "Nui Nui no Mi". 18:38, February 16, 2015 (UTC)

What does "Should we form the Japanese for the infobox?" mean exactly?

I assume it means we make the Japanese ourselves, rather than take it from the raw.

15:10, February 19, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, since the name "Nui Nui no Mi" doesn't actually appear anywhere, the question is whether or not we should form the Japanese name ourselves based on the DF naming scheme. Personally I'm very much against it and we decided not to do in a similar situation earlier, but the option is there. Interesting to note that in Nui Nui no Chikara ("ぬいぬい"の力), "Nui Nui" is written with hiragana, unlike DF names, which are written with katakana. 15:25, February 19, 2015 (UTC)

Letting it show as "Nui Nui no Mi" is pure speculation on our behalf, which is a big no-no. Using "Nui Nui no Chikara" is more official. We do not allow speculations. And as for the Rosinante case, we already confirmed his full name in both English and katakana, so he is no longer a valid example. 06:43, February 21, 2015 (UTC)

Just because we haven't seen the words "no Mi" in the original manga does not make this speculation. This is clearly a Devil Fruit, and if you're implying that calling it a Devil Fruit is also speculation, Yata, then why does it say on the page and on Leo's page that this is a Devil Fruit? If it's a Devil Fruit, then it should have "no Mi" at the end like all the other Devil Fruits. 15:47, February 21, 2015 (UTC)

Navibox
Can an admin please add Dwarves Navibox on the site navigation? 16:52, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

Additional Info
alright since somebody locked this page for some reason, there is more info that should be added. The page doesn't say yet, that you need an actualy sewing needle for that ability. Also I feel like in the Usage section it should be mentioned that he also uses this ability to support objects during earthquakes to make sure they don't fall

why was this page locked anyway.

FirePit (talk) 03:04, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

Done. And it's not locked anymore. 16:01, August 8, 2013 (UTC)