File talk:Jozu vs Crocodile.jpg

Manga or Anime version
Which image shall we keep, the original picture from the manga or the altered one from the anime? MasterDeva 04:55, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * First off, we can discuss the dispute in here; there's no reason to have a Delete tag on an image that, no matter which side of the argument wins, isn't getting deleted.


 * Secondly, the image isn't that altered. There are a few minor details, but overall it's similar enough that you can get the gist. Besides, the general rule of the Wiki is that anime images take precedence, unless the anime image is nothing like the manga version. I don't even know why you're arguing this. The Pope 05:13, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Buh6173 please think FIRST and act LATER. If I hadn't started the discussion here you wouldn't have done so yourself and would be still stuck reverting... It should have been you to first start a discussion in the talk page, not me. I added the deletion tag because in case a consensus isn't reached by the editors the pic should be removed, maybe it's my fault if the explanation wasn't clear enough in the description.


 * Now about the image. In the anime version it appears like Jozu tackles Crocodile while in the manga it's clearly shown that he punched him. Not only the anime didn't properly portray Jozu's attack but they show him use his half-diamond body to use it, while he has clearly displayed a preference in transforming only his body parts to attack others (like he did against Aokiji) in the manga. MasterDeva 05:58, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * How is a little bit more diamond that big a deal? Other than that, it's exactly the same. Both images show a forearm strike, not a punch. It's not clearly shown that he punched him by this very picture. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 06:11, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * If you look carefully at the manga you will notice that the motion of his hand as well as the way Crocodile falls back convey a punch hit from Jozu. Notice also that Jozu's fist isn't made discreet in the anime. MasterDeva 06:17, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Except, as I've already shown you, Jozu does not charge in with intent to punch. He tackles. That is why his forearm is pressed out and his fist is up against his chest. The punching motion following the contact is to throw Crocodile off his forearm. Chalk the fist up to simple animation. His fist is still there. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 06:28, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually,for further proof that it isn't a punch, check the panel spread just prior to the actual attack. Bottom-right corner, second panel up. Jozu's arm is already set with the forearm out. If he were punching, his fist would be drawn back. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 06:16, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Look a tad more closely, Jozu didn't use his elbow against Crocodile! MasterDeva 06:19, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * That isn't his elbow in the anime pic, it's his forearm. His elbow is the point lying just offscreen. Likewise, it's his forearm in the manga pic. I've already shown you proof that he wasn't punching Crocodile. Therefore, the only difference between this pic and that one falls back to the amount of diamond he has covered himself with and the lack of blood. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 06:26, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * You're rushing to prove your point and you're making mistakes though. If you see the next page were Doflamingo completely immobilizes Jozu you'll see that he was about to use his fist! Also, if you look at the name of the attack, Brilliant Punk, you'll see that "punk" is slang for punching someone in the face. MasterDeva 06:48, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * And in trying to prove your point you've just mixed up the timeline. By your own admission: "the next page were Doflamingo completely immobilizes Jozu". This event, by its very nature, must take place after Brilliant Punk. He's not using the same attack twice. Two, the name of the attack hardly proves anything, especially when the visible evidence proves rather concretely that he did not punch him. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 08:00, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yet I didn't mix up anything, Jozu was about to use the same attack and you made a mistakenly said yourself "He tackles ...punching motion following the contact is to throw Crocodile off his forearm" while it's crystal clear that by following the movement in the panels Jozu used only ONE move, the one hit two sent Crocodile flying. You can't just ignore the name of an attack simply to prove your point, a character isn't saying (for example) Death Kick and uses a PUNCH (unless he has a long nose and his name is Usopp :P)... Again, Jozu used the same attack against Aokiji and it clearly shows the 'impact' effect around his fist. If you think that Oda wouldn't have his characters use the same attack in sequence then check again Luffy's battle against Gigantic Moria! MasterDeva 08:15, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Just because Oda has used the same attack in sequence does not mean the same applies here. The setup is different for each attack. He does not say Brilliant Punk, so to claim the second attack is the same as the first is just guessing. In fact I can prove it's not the same. Brilliant Punk has a clear setup. Forearm out, blow connects, Jozu twists his arm to throw the attacker off. The buildup to Brilliant Punk is clearly a tackling motion, as is evident moments before Crocodile is hit. He then goes for the punch, a decidedly different motion. First, he's attacking with the right arm now. Second, he has his first drawn back from the start (bottom panel of page 12, 560). He is stopped before connecting. Two different moves, as clearly visible in his execution of them both. As to the name, I personally can't find reference to punk as a punching motion, and Oda isn't necessarily using it is reference to that. He could be referring to is as in "punked", i.e. an upset in a fight. You can't claim to know otherwise any more than I can. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 08:39, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Don't misunderstand, I said that Oda has displayed characters to use the same attack in sequence so this happening here with Jozu isn't unlikely. I recall characters not pronouncing a named attack (Luffy comes to mind) and strike their opponent too. Jozu used his two times with his left arm and once with his right (he was stopped though), changing which arm to use in order to attack doesn't make it a different attack. I don't know how you though of that... I'm searching again for the source about "punk", I believe that will take some time though. MasterDeva 09:06, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * The different arm is admittedly trivial, I'm just indicating every difference in execution. Jozu's left arm attack does not follow the same setup as his right with Brilliant Punk. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 15:48, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

The difference isn't significant enough to make it the odd duck out and be the only manga image on a page of anime images. It's a slight change; just let it go. The Pope 16:06, October 11, 2010 (UTC)