Talk:Doku Doku no Mi

Paramecia or Logia?
Are we absolutely sure this is Paramecia? It shows some properties of Logia. 144.59.12.230 22:38, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The Hydra scene only shows Magellan producing poison and being covered in it, not becoming it. From it, it seems to be like a Devil Fruit like Mr. 3's and Kalifa's. The only definite way for it to be a Logia, is for either Magellan to turn into poison to dodge an attack or it to be stated. Till such situations, it's a paramecia.Mugiwara Franky 23:16, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I have a pretty good feeling that this fruit is a Logia. I just read chapter 533...and Magellan WAS poison. He transformed into it. Poison can be some sort of element...right? That's what i think. When i read it was a paramecia here it confused me because to me it seems like a logia...well i'm just saying what I think.


 * Its better safe then sorry, anything we're not sure on that isn't an animal transformation is better off being classified as "Paramecia" until prven otherwise. Even at Arlong PArk Forums, they argue over this. One-Winged Hawk 11:42, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that it is Paramecia, because Magellan controls poison in both gas form (his breath) and liquid form (Hydra technique). I don't recall any other Logia fruits can manipulate two different phases of an element. Yatanogarasu 18:30, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * If he was posion element, he'd control posion regardless. Logia's can't control their substance when its in another state: Our ice admiral can't control water, just ice.  That is what that exact word is saying.  Though you are right in some sense, this would be the first time a logia had more then one state to it.  An argument is, well, look at Mr.3, he only produces it yet has worked out how to make statues and other things out of his abilities.  The ultimate trait of any Logia though; transforming into that element as well as using it, which even Blackbeard can do. One-Winged Hawk 09:03, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Latest chapter (Ch. 534) is the final nail on the board that shows the fruit is a Paramecia and not a Logia. Apart from Luffy hitting Magellan and the warden receiving damage, Magellan used a very un-logia-like way to travel from one place to another. If Magellan was a Logia, he would've changed into poison and traveled to Luffy in that state instead of using his hydra via Venom Road.Mugiwara Franky 06:41, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Luffy hitting Magellan proves nothing in terms of what type of fruit user Magellan is do to the force of Luffy's will (his haki) allowing him to make contact with a logia type user's body (i.e. Silvers' fight against Kizaru). The only evidence in chapter 534 is the poison road thing that Magellan does. But even that is iffy as it could just be his particular way of using his devil's fruit. No absolutes should be stated until it's proven conclusively that he is or isn't a logia type. Pro Logia: He is stated as BEING poison not just CREATING it. Pro Paramecia: He traveled USING poison rather then AS poison. At this point neither side is the clear choice.


 * That's going a bit too far on the whole Logia thing as Luffy isn't a Haki master like Rayleigh.Mugiwara Franky 00:47, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't matter you silly goose LOL All that means is that he can't control his Haki at will HOWEVER given the seriousness of the situation and his desperation to save Ace it is MORE THAN POSSIBLE that he subconsciously used his Haki as he had on the other 2 previous occasions in which his power became evident =P


 * That's still going too far. Just because Luffy used Haki those times doesn't mean he used it with Magellan. Sure the seriousness of the situation might call for Haki, however it doesn't call for a speculative explanation of how Luffy was able to hit Magellan. Stating that Luffy hit Magellan with Haki in order to uphold the idea that Magellan is a Logia user is very speculative especially since there isn't any evidence at all to prove that Luffy used Haki that time.Mugiwara Franky 05:38, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

@Mugiwara Franky - read the whole message moron. I never claimed that it WAS a logia type, just that you couldn't rule out the possibility that it could be. You should probably stop writing because you're making yourself seem like an idiot. The previous message clearly states that IF the poison fruit IS a logia type then Luffy COULD have used haki in order to hit him. I also said that as NO CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE can be found in proving one way or the other, NO ABSOLUTE ANSWER can be given at this time. And just to clear this up for you: THIS ENTIRE TOPIC IS ONE OF SPECULATION. THEREFOR, ANYTHING WRITTEN IN THIS DISCUSSION IS A SPECULATIVE THOUGHT.


 * While you have some points. I must say that I've interpreted them as a justification of speculative theory. Because of the way you stated things it seemed that you attempted to state something to prove something.


 * On the subject of what is discussed in this talk page, what is mainly discussed here is how to handle the article. It is not a forum discussing speculative theories and thought.Mugiwara Franky 16:40, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Showing support for MF here, a few things being discussed are not only forumish, but going off topic... One-Winged Hawk 16:45, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I think that both of you have misinterpreted the situation. This is a discussion on whether or not the Doku Doku no Mi is a Logia or a Paramecia type, which is an answer that can not be given at this point in time. A person can have individual beliefs on this, such as Mugiwara Franky's belief that it is a Paramecia type HOWEVER it should not be labeled as such on the page due to the lack of evidence. The most prudent decision would be to not label it until after further information is gathered.


 * I think we all know that this is a discussion on the matter so that's not the problem. The problem however is the criticism towards your views. Some constructive criticism against your views is expected especially on what will be on the page.


 * As for evidence on Magellan being a Paramecia, there's actually more for it than Logia. Here are the following based on importance.
 * Magellan has not turned into poison element
 * Magellan was hit but the attack did not let through
 * Hancock stepped on Magellan
 * Magellan did not turn into poison when traveling from place to place
 * Magellan uses different forms of poison: liquid and air


 * Also labeling the Devil Fruit as neither Paramecia nor Logia is abit too much. Any Devil Fruit power that doesn't follow the basics of a Logia or a Zoan, is naturally a Paramecia.Mugiwara Franky 19:33, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

The criticism of my views is not what I have a problem with, it's merely your inability to rebut my thoughts with fact based reasoning. Pretty much everything you have stated as reasons for it not to be a Logia type can be easily explained away using basic One Piece knowledge and common sense. The following points correspond with yours:


 * 1) While Magellan may have yet to transform into the poison "element", he has been stated as BEING poison and not just creating it.
 * 2) While Luffy may not have full control over his haki, the manga has shown on multiple occasions that when his emotions become high he subconsciously uses it.
 * 3) Hancock is a VERY experienced haki user, as are the rest of her people. she, in fact, has the same type of haki as Luffy "houshoku"
 * 4) This is the hardest one, and probably the only clear evidence pointing in any direction. The only thing one could say is that it is his way of using the fruit.
 * 5) Poison is poison and is not labeled differently according to its state of matter unlike say water (ice, water, vapour) also, Kizaru is shown as being able to use his ability as both a form of energy and as a solid sword.

To say it "a bit much" to not label the fruit is a rather silly statement. The lack of a label would not be a permanent thing, only lasting until either the manga or Oda answer the question. To make an absolute claim based on speculation (such as your claim that it MUST be a paramecia) is a rather fascist idea. Thats not to say that I necessarily disagree with your assessment, as I too believe this fruit to be of the paramecia type but to state it as black and white without conclusive evidence is unscientific (for lack of a better term). This site claims to be a form of encyclopedia and so making a statement based entirely on speculation is an inappropriate way to write an article. If you MUST have this fruit labeled as some type then something along the lines of "Most people speculate that this is a paramecia type" would be that most appropriate way to go about it. The Earth is not flat my friend.


 * Please sign you posts with ~ its annoying if you don't.


 * Luffy has said before "I am rubber" (instead of "I am a rubber man"). Note that Mallegan is labbeled as a "Poison man" yet most Logias greet themselves as their element only, I.e Enel saying "I am thunder" or as Blackbeard said it, "Ace, you are fire, I am darkness".   Enel, Smoker, Croc... None of them said I am a "XXXX man" they said "I am XXXX".  It does not automatically label someone as a "logia".  Luffy is paramecia.
 * He has used Haki twice now, once on the bull and the second time on the Amazons. We know not of any other times...
 * We've not seen her use it openly, whose to say she is using it on the warden therefore?
 * We have no full explaination on the useage of his fruit. I note that Mr.3 has displayed many simulairities between his and Mellagan's fruit, in fact its safe to say they work pretty much the same way as seen by now. Mr.3 controls his power with wax flow, he "sculptures it" as he produces it.
 * On light, Light can be used in many ways. There is a term called "Solid Light", which is used in fiction, abide for holograms.  Light beams in anime in general have a "solid" force behind them, which can explain the light fruits sword without hassle.  I liken it to "light sabre" which the move is promptly named... And of course the obivous inspirations... Yeah, we can explain that one without too much thought here.


 * Its not a fascist idea, when in doub,t stick with Paramecia until you have confirmation. But when it comes to DFs, the only "grey" shade here was the Darkness fruit. Outside of that, everything IS black and with DF.  If the users produces, but not becomes, its paramecia. Ojn a final note, if Mallegan was truly LOGIA then not even eating posion would give him a weak bladder, the food would either pass through his system without trouble or "merge" with his body leaving uneffected food.  Logias are NOT effected by their own element, example; Ace's mini-story, he leaps into a burning ship and saves someone's life, the fire does not burn him at all in any way.  One-Winged Hawk 22:55, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Fire as a Weakness
Fire has been constantly added a weakness to the Devil Fruit. While it is true that one of Magellan's Hydra's heads was destroyed when it accidentally dove into the burning pool of blood, it doesn't seem like a weakness as it doesn't seem to hinder Magellan. I mean its a creature made out of liquid poison, a substance that can be easily replaced in Magellan's case.Mugiwara Franky 01:43, 9 March 2009 (UTC)


 * On seeing Luffy use fire on his foot against Magellan I retract my previous statement.Mugiwara Franky 04:15, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Oops, my mistake on Luffy using fire against Magellan. Bad Raw. Fire however still seems to be something based on one of the Hydra's heads.Mugiwara Franky 01:11, 14 March 2009 (UTC)