Talk:Sabo

the chapter is in fact out. here's the page Sabo first appears on fully http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/583/12/ --Kingluffy1 02:51, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Abilities and Powers
Is pointless to say that he has sufficient physical strength because it's been stated that Ace was stronger than luffy when they were kids --Thenewjericho 23:18, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think stopping someone from yelling qualifies as an ability, power or proof of physical capability. The thieving thing should stay though. --One Piece Of Romance Dawn 01:11, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

Personality
The personality section so far draws a lot of conclusions from very little information. I don't see how "taking note of Porchemy having a sword" implies that he is less hardened or less experienced in combat than Luffy and Ace. From what I gathered after reading the chapter, it just seemed that he's pretty insightful. --DeaTh-ShiNoBi 09:16, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Does ace wears sabo's hat when he is grown up? the hat ace is wearing resembles the hat sabo is wearing.

Maby it is the same as the strawhat of luffy?


 * It doesn't look like the same hat at all... XxKibaxX 14:16, May 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * No Ace can't be wearing Sabo's hat. First off the Hat had fallen into the sea and Sabo's hat is somewhat like a tophat Ace is a cowboy I think and Luffy's is a strawhat (pretty obvious) but ace isn't wearing Sabos hat

sabo's first appearance
look at chapter 546's cover. there's sabo with sub title "the power to free slave. The revolutionary army arrives." by Monkey_D_fend


 * Nicely spotted! Judging from the hair, it certainly could be Sabo all grown up and tall (so proud!), and from the latest chapter it looks like he'll join up with the revolutionaries, but nothing's certain yet. Remember when Luffy exclaimed that he was determined to save Ace, his one and only brother in the whole world? Judging from that, Sabo should be dead in the present storyline - whether that means Dragon took him in without Luffy and Ace's knowing, or whether Sabo actually dies and the popcorn-haired guy on the cover of 546 is a weird coincidence, it's all speculation. Let's hold on and see what Oda pulls next ;) Raikia 00:00, May 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Excellent find! I just read Chapter 586 and I was thinking maybe the reason why we didn't know about Sabo until now was because Dragon took him in! This is so exciting! Wow! Thanks for basically confirming it. YazzyDream 01:59, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Good eye! Just read Ch.586 and then took a look at the Ch.546 cover, could be possible that Sabo is with the Revolutionery army, even if that may not be him on the 546 cover.Chopperdude 12:46, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Good eye! Just read Ch.586 and then took a look at the Ch.546 cover, could be possible that Sabo is with the Revolutionery army, even if that may not be him on the 546 cover.Chopperdude 12:46, May 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * intersting find, but I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions --Kingluffy1 22:18, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Very Nice find, but I have to disappoint you, in the anime that character is shown with red hair, while Sabo had blonde, and Sabo would have had a hat similar to his. --Ryahoe 24:18, January 14, 2011
 * Very Nice find, but I have to disappoint you, in the anime that character is shown with red hair, while Sabo had blonde, and Sabo would have had a hat similar to his. --Ryahoe 24:18, January 14, 2011

Doesn't matter what the animators do. They also originally colored Marco with black hair. SeaTerror 06:09, January 14, 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't look like Sabo that much, where is the missing tooth?80.217.68.75 12:10, June 2, 2011 (UTC)

This has been confirmed to be the revolutionary Bunny Joe in the deep blue data book.

Jolly Roger
Does anybody else notice something strangely "familiar" about Sabo's jolly roger?



Don't think to hard about it. I just thought it seemed interesting and wanted to get a consensus on what everyone else might think; also whether or not it's valid enough to be noted on Sabo's page (if it even matters; if not, forget i even said anything). I understand that at this moment it's purely speculative, so please don't lecture me on the speculation rules. Again, I just thought this was of notable interest and wanted a consensus --Kingluffy1 22:34, June 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I...don't see anything familiar about it at all. The Pope 22:58, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

It could just be over contemplation due to the new chapter (it happens to the best of us, especially when trying to make connections to somethiing). I thought it looked similar to Ace's ASCE tatoo with the S crossed out like the flag. there's the possibility of a connection, but i do have my doubts, so it's merely speculatory. --Kingluffy1 23:06, June 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hmm...you do have a point. Until anything official is stated about it, though, we'll leave it at coincidence. The Pope 23:12, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I concur --Kingluffy1 23:14, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

That's what I thought too, only didn't Oda say that the S was only there because the tattoo artist messed up or something?


 * For the S in Ace's tattoo, it's never been stated but interpreted by most in pre-Sabo Jolly Roger times as a mistake by some artist. With the appearance of Sabo's Jolly Roger, it kinda has indeed changed the view of some towards the tattoo. However, unless there is some explanation saying that the S in Ace's tattoo is in remembrance of Sabo, it's still kinda speculation.Mugiwara Franky 06:44, June 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oda has confirmed in "One Piece - Green Data Book" that the crossed out S in Ace's tatoo refers to Sabo.68.42.243.220 14:24, December 1, 2010 (UTC) Fordie 9:24, December 1, 2010.
 * Oda has confirmed in "One Piece - Green Data Book" that the crossed out S in Ace's tatoo refers to Sabo.68.42.243.220 14:24, December 1, 2010 (UTC) Fordie 9:24, December 1, 2010.

Speculating?
Aren't you guys speculating if Sabo is alive or dead. Currently we can only say, is that he seems to be dead after leaving the island. 96.255.137.55 05:30, June 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hence the:

next to his age. --KiumaruHamachi 14:23, August 8, 2010 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
 * Age: 10 (Presumed Deceased)

Maybe I'm wrong, but on episode 504 they showed "Dragon" (Monkey D. Dragon) coming back to his ship that was docked on the coast while being questioned by Emporio Ivankov his crewmates exclaim "You!  Quickly, bring a doctor!  This is an emergency!" since this is only a speculation is might be possible that was Sabo after the wreck he might have washed up on the coast.

71.32.9.92 03:09, March 14, 2013 (UTC)Phatom0x0

databook says he's dead, speculating is saying he's alive (I still think he's alive though)

I feel you Sewil-bro... 15:35, March 14, 2013 (UTC)

Really Deceased
This is from Ace's article. Some time later, Ace finds Luffy lying face down mourning Sabo's death. Does this mean, he really is deceased? --KiumaruHamachi 01:54, August 15, 2010 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi

While nothing is certain, he appears to have died after Jalmack shot him the second time. However, since his body was never recovered there is still a slim chance he is alive. As for now, we can't be 100% certain, which is why we have "presumed deceased" in his character box. There is the slimmest chance he is alive but given what happened the last time he was seen, he most likely died. Basically it's huge gray area.DancePowderer 03:10, August 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well on Ace's page can we put: Ace finds Luffy lying face down mourning Sabo's (presumed) death. KiumaruHamachi 03:12, August 15, 2010 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi

The fact that the characters instantly acknowledged the event as his death suggests he really did die. Leave it be for now until/unless new information is revealed.DancePowderer 03:16, August 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay. KiumaruHamachi 03:17, August 15, 2010 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi

You mean how characters have said somebody was dead and then they were actually alive? That's a terrible suggestion to go by what characters say. SeaTerror 19:54, August 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Pell is what everyone cringes on whenever off camera deaths happen. One-Winged Hawk 20:16, August 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * @Seaterror: Yeah, your right I shouldn't go by what the characters say. --KiumaruHamachi 23:39, August 15, 2010 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi

The only difference is that Pell didn't die or appear to be dead in a flashback, it happened in the current storyline. He was confirmed to be alive before the arc was over. Sabo is believed to have been dead for ten years. The confirmation for whether or not Pell was alive had a much faster turn-around than Sabo. Pell showed up after a couple days in the current storyline while Sabo has not shown his face for at least ten years. The main difference and problem here is the amount of time that has passed. I still think Sabo's page should be left as is until new information turns up, if it does.DancePowderer 01:51, August 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hopefully a brave fan (or databook) will ask or have this question answered. KiumaruHamachi 01:54, August 16, 2010 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi

The point is it doesn't matter what characters say. A person who is thought to have been dead has come back numerous times in multiple kinds of fiction. SeaTerror 02:05, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

True. I can't argue with that. --KiumaruHamachi 02:06, August 16, 2010 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi

Goku isn't the best example for this. I mean, that series actually has an afterlife and a way of bringing people back from the dead. One Piece has no known afterlife or way of ressurecting the dead (ignoring Moria for a moment). The plot devices of one series can't be used to justify or explain a slightly different plot device of another. DancePowderer 02:17, August 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay ^_^' But anyways: hopefully this is one of those, Manga Characters will reveal ultimate fate or manga ka will reveal it in a SBS. KiumaruHamachi 02:19, August 16, 2010 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi


 * Sabo is Dead. From a stroytelling standpoint, we are currently being told by Oda that Sabo is dead. Anything else is speculation. Before Akainu killed Ace, there were PLENTY of fans who speculated Ace would die, we were even told this by a "Leak" from someone who got One of Oda's assistants drunk. This "Leak" also successfully predicted like 5 other things including the exact function and name of Ivankov's "Galaxy Wink" before it happened. We didn't edit Ace's page to say "By the way, he's totally gonna die" before he actually died.
 * Right now, Sabo is dead to the best of our knowledge. Until Oda sheds some more concrete light on the subject, the information should stay as it is. If/when Oda reveals more information on Sabo, then the article can be changed.DemonRin 02:30, August 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * LOL, someone got Oda's assistant drunk, I still can't stop laughing at that. But yeah I agree with that person above me. --KiumaruHamachi 02:32, August 16, 2010 (UTC)KiuamruHamachi

Really? Oda said he was dead? Oh wait you mean his characters did. That doesn't mean anything. The characters thought Pell was dead but he survived. SeaTerror 07:53, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Igaram too. Vivi says he's dead but the truth says not dead. Juracuille 3:15, August 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * The thing that is happening with Sabo is exactly like what happened to Igaram and Pell. A story device that Oda, and many other story tellers, use is in function here. First, Oda puts a character into a situation where both the characters and readers believe that the character died. For a certain time, this is the assumed and accepted truth. After several chapters later, Oda then reveals that the character is alive sometimes with an explanation.


 * Sabo, as far as it can speculated, is probably saddled with this story device. Through the hat scene and various character comments, Oda is saying to the audience indirectly that Sabo died. He is embedding the thought through his storytelling. Though Oda has however alluded to something else with the scene with Dragon, something that may change the thought, he doesn't show the truth as he wants the thought that Sabo died to be the persisting idea among his audience. Doing so is a way to make the story more enjoyable especially when the truth is revealed.


 * So yeah, if and when Oda decides to reveal the truth, we as the audience will just have to wait and accept the persisting idea set by him, Sabo is dead.Mugiwara Franky 09:05, August 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with that. --KiumaruHamachi 11:39, August 16, 2010 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi

No (significant) character in One Piece has ever died offscreen. Ace and Whitebeard were blatantly obvious. Bellemare was shot in the face. Dr. Hiluluk blew himself up from the inside out.

Anyone who we thought "died" offscreen, i.e. Pell, Pagaya, Galley-La and the Franky Family, etc. always ended up just fine. If you still think that Sabo is dead just because his hat is floating in the water and everyone in the story instantly jumped to the conclusion that he's dead (which is what happened with all of the above situations), then you don't know Oda's writing enough. The Pope 15:25, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

I dont think he is dead, because in the recent flash back episodes of the anime, Dragon boards his ship at night after the ancestiral dragon blows up Sabo's ship and is greeted by Ivankov, who looks down and questions him "What is that?" and then he calls for the doctor, so I presume Dragon fished a critically injured Sabo from the water and saved his life.Hammered Sledge 02:56, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

Not Deceased; Alive?

 * I'm too lazy to start a new section so I'll continue to add to this: since there a picutre of him at age 20 does that mean he's no longer Presumed Deceased? KiumaruHamachi 12:52, August 19, 2010 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi


 * It's just a pic. It's not really definite proof especially considering Ace is alive and running alongside his brothers in it. It maybe a prelude to something or it maybe one of those What if things. Best not to write Sabo's alive since it's not clear.Mugiwara Franky 13:00, August 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * I was thinking: It's Oda's way of saying Sabo's alive. But your right, we should wait. --KiumaruHamachi 13:02, August 19, 2010 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi


 * It's definitively a "what would have been situation". Just don't look on Sabo - there's a HUGE hint to that on Ace's arm. -- [ defchris ] · [ Diskussion ] · 14:23, August 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * The fact he doesn't have the "S" tattoo and it being crossed out? --KiumaruHamachi 15:07, August 19, 2010 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
 * let's just say he's dead for now


 * Sabo is still alive! be observative .. in the anime.. when dragon came back from.. it was mentioned that he brought with him a wounded. :))))


 * This discussion is over 2 years old now. It's been confirmed through One Piece Green that he's dead. The anime doesn't take advantage over the manga, and the anime never said that at all. Let it go. 05:53, January 13, 2013 (UTC)

Ace's Tatoo
Maybe something should be noted about Ace's tatoo in chapter 596. It spelled correctly as "ACE" as opposed to spelling out "ASCE" with the S crossed out. I don't like to jump to conclusions, but the crossed out S is clearly a reference to Sabo, as the hypothetical situation on the cover of chapter 596 in which Sabo didn't die has no crossed out S (credit to KingLuffy1 for noticing this even before the latest chapter). -- DeaTh-ShiNoBi 10:56, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Oda has confirmed in "One Piece - Green Data Book" that the crossed out S in Ace's tatoo refers to Sabo.68.42.243.220 14:23, December 1, 2010 (UTC) Fordie 9:23, December 1, 2010.

Buckle of sabo
In anime episode 496 it is seen that sabo's buckle has an royal prestige that describe they are royals!, shall we add it!

Stone Roger 07:21, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

speculation about relationships
considering Dragon has not met luffy since he was born and started his famous rebellion* it stands to reason he had no idea about Sabo or Ace being more than just local boys that may possibly hang around with his child and if by somechance Dragon had heard of at least Ace later on in life it is probable he never learnt they were brothers as this remained a hidden fact for most the story until Ace's death (taken by ivanokov's reaction to being told this by Luffy). as such should we alter the relationships page to just mention his meeting with Dragon and the impact he had on Dragon by mentioning the plot and take out the speculations to say that Dragon is Sabo's adoptive bother's, Luffy's, biological father. A Fact believed unknown to either person during any meeting. this allwos for a quick alteration if any concrete evidence that Dragon knew who he was comes out


 * (ok minimum prior to luffy having ability to form a memory as a at best case scenario)

152.91.9.153 18:55, June 12, 2011 (UTC)

Sabo is dead
No more need to be safe, it's written here that he died in the incident as confirmed by JapaneseOPfan.

Yeah, we actually saw that happen..

Hmm... Do you really think every Japanese-speaking people from the fandom would have overlooked this crucial info for more than one year? I highly doubt it. The wording is really important here. Maybe it is written from the point of view of Luffy, or something like that. I would like to have more detail about this.

We need an exact translation.... 19:31, March 3, 2012 (UTC)

It was only a panel so maybe they did and I believe the whole Sabo theory was born among the English users... the databook was released yesterday in Italy, and there it was written that "Sabo was bombarded by the Celestial Dragons and lost his life", so since I don't trust that much the Italian adaption I asked Jopie to confirm this and she did, you can ask her or Klobis for another opinion.

Can we get a direct translation of the Japanese? I won't believe this for a second unless Oda says it himself. I'm guessing it was a flub from the Italian translators. The Pope 03:45, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

Leviathan 89 said he had JapaneseOPfan confirm what it said in Japanese. He's dead. 03:58, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

He's dead... according to Green book. --Klobis 14:12, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

Still see no proof SeaTerror 07:33, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Then get your eyes checked and look at the pic at the beginning of the thread. 18:14, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Cause you cant read japanese SeaTerror.. Wtf?!

Let's not start talking rude to each other, klobis and jopie confirmed what I read in the official Italian adaptation, so it's confirmed.

There really is still no evidence. You're saying everybody missed what the databook said for such a long time. SeaTerror 02:34, March 20, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, people missed it. Then someone caught it and we're making use of that. 02:36, March 20, 2012 (UTC)

Sea, the evidence is the text in the image above (taken from green of course), there it says that Sabo lost his life. Jopie and klobis confirmed this, I also read the same in the Italian version, if you buy the English version (I don't know if there is one) I bet you will found the same. The myth was probably born among the English fans.

I still think it's a red herring (and Klobis seems to be thinking along these lines too), but what I (and other speculators) think is irrelevant. We have to follow what official material says. (Duh!)

Do you guys think I'm going to believe some sort of Databook, which hasn't even been released(and probably never will be) here where I live? Besides, what evidence do you have that all the information in the Databooks is true? Until Oda himself confirms it in either SBS, an interview, or the manga itself, I'm not going to believe anything. 88.195.19.59 21:51, March 22, 2012 (UTC)

Hate to break it to you buddy, but Databooks are created for the sole purpose in filling in the "blank" spots in One Piece (e.g. names, birthdays etc.). Plus I think Oda writes them himself... PhoenixRising101 11:39, March 23, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, more often than not, it's the assistants who write them in general, not just in the case of One Piece. But the mangaka gives them the information himself as well as specific instructions about what to do with it and how to present it. 14:02, March 23, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, Oda may have done this on purpose. I read chinese, not japanese. But from what I can tell, the Green book narrates that he was hit by a bomb from the Noble and ''lost his life. ''This does not fill any gap, simply repeats what occured in the manga. So I think this line is a summary of the information we have up to this point, not a statement of what's absolutely true. It's devious on Oda's part, but putting the page there serves to bring Sabo to the reader's consciousness and allows him to surprise us later on... - Sf2

The databook said he died, people in the manga said he died. He remains dead until said otherwise. End of story. 00:59, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

Sabo alive?
Look at the cover of chapter 668. There are three cups possibly fill with sake. Maybe it's a hint from Oda that Sabo is still alive?

First, sign your posts with four ~'s.

Second, no. He's not alive. It's been proven in Green. Thinking he's still alive is really stupid. Anybody who says he is is stupid. 05:18, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

The green book said he died, not that he is dead. He could have died and came back to life with Ivankovs hormones. With so many clues and foreshadowing, you cannot say either way.

That isn't how Ivankov's power works. Also scroll up and read. There are many people who think it was just a red herring anyway. Also databooks aren't written by mangaka but by their assistants. SeaTerror 19:08, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

no matter how i look at it i still think sabo is alive .................DCNR (talk) 17:15, October 6, 2012 (UTC)

People who say Sabo is dead because of this data book or w/e is stupid, that book is not made by Oda therefore whoever said he is dead in it is just going by what happened as kids. Sabo is not dead since he has an important role in OP, u will all see soon. 90.196.61.210 22:02, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

First off, it's people are stupid. Saying people is stupid only makes yourself look as such. You don't know how databooks work, do you? True, they are not written by Oda, but he does decide what goes in it and the books have to go through his approval. And what, may I ask, is Sabo's "important role in OP"? As far as I can tell, getting his ass blown up was him finishing his role. So, unless you can be way more specific about why you're in denial, I say you're full of crap. Next time you want to challenge the credibility of something, I suggest doing your homework beforehand so that you don't look like an even bigger version of what you're calling people, ok junior? 22:13, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

Unlock please
I need to replace a .jpg, unlock please.

I'll get the rest of the jpgs on the page so we, so we don't have to unlock this again later. 15:08, February 3, 2013 (UTC)

Signs of Sabo still alive
Basically I think he should still be in the category as there's lots of signs on him still might be alive.
 * The 3 sake cups right below Portgas D. Ace's name, symbolism for their brotherhood
 * Questioned on SBS
 * Oda's response to that on SBS
 * Chapter 589, Dragon went to see the ceremony where Sabo died, and the crew gets shocked over something he's holding, or a wound.

No. Databook says he's dead, that's confirmed. This isn't Monet. 08:59, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

I'm skeptical of the databook, and really only because of the fact that it never got an exact translation. It has to say more than "he died", you know? If that got cleared up, then it would be easier for every side. 09:02, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

It was from the perspective of the the character's, what they believed, not what actually happened.

I remember that being said somewhere, but without an exact translation here on the wiki, we don't have a for sure answer of that either. 09:04, February 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * What are you talking about?

The point here is Oda wants to make us believe Sabo is dead. It doesn't matter if he is actually alive, we have to stick to what was told in the manga and that is "Sabo is dead". For example, Ace turned out to be Rufy's adoptive brother, we should then literally doubt everything in the manga because "there is a chance of a plot twist", that's absurd.

I agree 100% with Leviathan, One piece wiki is not a wiki for us to write what we think or what we predicd.. Is a wiki based on FACTS ONLY. 13:20, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

So Sabo is dead,end of the converstion. 14:16, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

Sabo is dead?
People say he is dead because the green book says so, what page on the green book does it say this? I can't find it anywhere, I honestly don't think it is true. 128.237.76.242 05:38, March 20, 2013 (UTC)

Look at the "Sabo is dead" section on this talk page, the only picture there. The letters are written in Japanese though, so not my fault if you can't get anything out of it. Hope that helps. WU out -  06:55, March 20, 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it said "Sabo lost his life" and that it didnt say "he died". Losing his life can have several meanings, for example: "He lost his old life". Losing a life does not always mean that someone died.

Correct me if I'm wrong Omxz (talk) 09:51, May 9, 2013 (UTC) OMXZ

One Piece Green: Secret_Pieces is a data book. Data books contain actual facts not ambiguos or vague information. 10:00, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

Sabo is Alive!
I believe Sabo is still alive watch episode 504 at the begining listen to coversation off screen on dragons ship it hints that he brought back an injured person from the ceremony in which Sabo was supposely killed

Silverfox893

There's already a section for this, please write in there. And sign your posts. 13:29, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

Chapter 731
Why do people keep putting a section for Dressrosa arc on the page? I know it's almost certainly Sabo from the most recent chapter but putting it there when it hasn't been confirmed is still speculation. 00:20, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

It's Sabo. 00:21, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

I dunno Videogamep, maybe cause it's Sabo? 00:23, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

This isn't even speculation. We got everything but the name and the only other two characters it could be are dead. SeaTerror (talk) 00:25, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

If you got the statement "_ + 2 = 5", would you not automatically conclude that the blank is 3 based on all the surrounding information? The name is the blank in this case. We don't need it to know for sure. 00:31, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

It is Sabo. The sake cups, the conversation with Koala about how he didn't make it to the war, the clothes, the reaction Luffy gave. Please don't be naive. Yountoryuu (talk) 00:33, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

I also believe this (my wrost nightmare), but I'm conflicted about what to do as wiki. In my opinion we have two options: either just remove the part where we say it's dead and wait next chapter to update the current history or just go ahead and take it as confirmed. The first is less speculative in my opinion, but as others said there is little space to doubts here. I wouldn't say anything about Dragon's rescue since that would be surely be explained later, so no reason to speculate in advance. Anyway don't just add empty sections, it's useless.

I know it is Sabo, but we should still at least wait for the next chapter. It's better to wait a week than include something that's unconfirmed (and no this isn't because Sabo being alive would mean I'd have to question everything I've ever known). 00:58, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

It's pretty much confirmed. 00:58, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

I know it's pretty much confirmed, but we should still wait until it is definitely confirmed. 01:02, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

No need, it's definitely confirmed. 01:02, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

It's not definite because they never showed him from the front or mentioned his name. 01:04, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

its been all but confirmed, we know its him but it hasnt yet been confirmed-- 01:06, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

It's Sabo. It's time to give up. The time of "death" is over. 01:08, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

im not saying its not but where's the confirmtion-- 01:09, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Even if it is obvious, we should still wait for confirmation. It couldn't hurt to wait for next week's chapter for confirmation. 01:11, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

It also doesn't hurt to go ahead and do it, since it's 100% obvious. 01:19, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

patience is a virtue-- 01:20, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Being obvious isn't the same as being confirmed. 01:22, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Holy crap. Stop being petty about your predictions being wrong and just accept the facts. You are wasting everybody's time by keeping this stupid argument going. 01:24, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

* copy/pastes the last sentence of gal's message*-- 01:26, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

We have everything but the name. It's 100% safe to call it. Look at who this is coming from. If any of you know me, you know that I'm one of the most adamant about him being dead. And yet here I am telling you it's okay to call him alive based on what we saw. Patience in this case is the same as being stubborn. 01:27, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

what makes this case different from the others that have been 100% obvious but not yet confirmed so we didnt let them on to articles because of speculation-- 01:30, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Monet.

Anyways, I agree with DP 100% 01:31, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not against this because I'm against Sabo being alive and I don't mind being wrong. I'm against this because I don't want to include something in an article if it isn't 100% confirmed even if it is 99% confirmed. 01:33, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Vergo.

Anyways, there's enough factual evidence to consider this fine. It's Sabo. 01:35, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

If I didn't think there was enough evidence to make a safe call, I wouldn't be on the side of it being him. 01:36, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

what factual evidence? luffy's enel face, oda's drawing of the brother's cups? yes it is incredibly unlikely that it isnt him but that isnt enough-- 01:37, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

It couldn't hurt to wait a week and remove the part of the article that says he's dead. 01:38, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Yes it is enough because there is no other person that Luffy would be talking about in this context. The outfit that is shown also contributes to it being him. Holy crap stubbornness.

It hurts to wait a week because the wiki looks foolish not understanding these basis concepts of story. 01:39, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Then who else does Luffy know who was believed to be dead for several years with a link to the revo army? 01:40, December 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * a character that hasnt been introduced yet in the story whose background we dont know-- 01:42, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

You know this should be dropped for a very obvious reason. Even I am not saying its speculation. SeaTerror (talk) 01:42, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

What you just said is actual speculation Raven. The only person that fits the three cups at the graveyard is Sabo. 01:43, December 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * speculation-- 01:44, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

ST's reason might be the most convincing reason I've heard so far but even so it would be better to wait until we have 100% confirmation instead of 99.9% (also I've never had this many edit conflicts before) 01:45, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

DP you messed up and protected it without reverting first. SeaTerror (talk) 01:46, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

(F*** edit conflict x2) Isn't this the Ryokugyu thing being an admiral based on his name and what Doflamingo said? 01:46, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

It would be better not to wait for 100% confirmation for something so obvious. There are plenty of other things on this wiki that fit the actual definition of speculation. 01:47, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

It wouldn't hurt to wait a week for a clearer analyses. When was the last time we went by speculation? 01:48, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Monet, Vergo, to name a couple.

This isn't speculation though. 01:48, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

I can post a lot more examples than that if you want Besty. SeaTerror (talk) 01:49, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Monet was stabbed through the heart and Vergo was blown up. It doesn't get much more confirmed than that. 01:50, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

We don't go by speculation. We go by what we can verify, and this is something we can verify. There are times to wait, and there are times for action. This time is one of the latter. 01:50, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Sabo has shown up and emitted a clear reaction from Luffy (and has mentioned Ace AND the cups). It doesn't get much more confirmed than that. 01:51, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

It actually does. We can wait for the next chapter which will most likely show him from the front and have box (re)introducing him. 01:54, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

It's speculation until proven otherwise. 01:55, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

We could wait, yes. But this is one of the rare times we don't have to. 01:56, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

(God I hate edit conflicts) We called Ryokugyu an admiral simply because he is a "color+animal" name, plus Doflamingo's speech make it sound like he is an admiral. No confirmation there, and we so-called speculated him to be an admiral. Why not Sabo? 01:56, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

In that case, there was no chance of him not being an admiral. Here, there is a slim (virtually nonexistent) chance that Oda is tricking us and it is someone else. 02:05, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

No no, it's possible that he might not be an admiral! Maybe he's something else! 99.9% < 100%.

Anyways, the chance of this not being Sabo is 0%. 02:12, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

i disagree-- 02:13, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Your disagreement is invalid. Xx-PublicEnemy01-xX (talk) 02:20, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

My money is that it was Dragon Luffy spoke to, not Sabo. (casual diffusing) 02:26, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Ignoring the bad attempt at distraction, there is zero room for error in saying it's Sabo. 02:32, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

there's an extremely small chance it isnt him-- 02:34, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

No, there really isn't. 02:35, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

there really is, think about it. has luffy or anybody else said it was sabo? was his face even shown? no, thus there is the incredibly small chance it isnt him. personally i think it is but it hasnt been confirmed-- 02:39, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Yes because he pointed out that it was somebody he thought was dead for a long time, the sake cups were shown, and the relationship to Ace was confirmed. 02:41, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

which makes it incredibly likely but not completely-- 02:43, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

No, it makes it completely proved. Anybody denying it is just stubborn over their previous predictions being untrue. 02:44, December 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * this argument is asinine. i believe that it is sabo, but i know its not 100% proven and none of your arguments will change that, just like how none of my arguments will change your mind due to your stubbornness that it is completely proven that it is sabo and nothing could be done to prove it may not be him. though we do need a way to settle how to handle articles rather than just bicker on talk pages with arguments that go no where-- 02:50, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

There are no other possibilities. We're not going to learn about some secret 4th brother, and everything presented can only be indicative of one person. 02:45, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

(Okay, 3rd time edit conflict really gets me **** angry) Isn't this what stories are about: leaving the readers to their own interpretations? 02:47, December 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, I admit we insisted Sabo dead from above arguments, but now he's alive, all evidence lean towards that side despite lack of ACTUALLY saying his name (the one and ONLY one unconfirmed). But EVERYTHING else says it is Sabo. 02:50, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

True, but this conflict is about there being one other minutely possible interpretation. With two possibilities, those in the smaller camp are reluctant to portray the larger one as fact. 02:51, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Just poll it. SeaTerror (talk) 02:55, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

How about no. That'd end next week, when we'd know for sure. More people will post in support of the change, and we'll change it. 02:56, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

"that'd end next week, when we'd know for sure" so you admit its not yet for sure? and we could do a real quick poll something that only lasts like 24hrs, i mean no point in making it last a week-- 02:59, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Right. No point in waiting a week. Might as well just do it now. 03:03, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Oda doesn't always do a reveal in the following chapter anyway. SeaTerror (talk) 03:04, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Nah, that's just me saying it would definitely convince you, but I don't think it's needed.

Also, ST makes a valid point there too. 03:05, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

I think we all know it's Sabo. Literally all the evidence in the chapter points toward it being Sabo. Even the one small panel where it shows him in front of Luffy before Luffy's reaction, you can see him holding his tradmark hat. I will agree though, that I think it's appropriate to leave the Sabo page alone until he is officially revealed by Oda. SiegfriedLaLaLa (talk) 03:37, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

So are we going to poll it? 03:45, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Nope. Waiting on more people to post. Right now, it's a majority for "it's Sabo". 03:48, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

the issue here isnt whether it is sabo or not, cause no one thinks its not him, the issue here is whether or not there is absolute no chance whatsoever that it may not be him-- 04:02, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

There is absolutely no chance that it isn't him. 04:02, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

>_> yeah i realized that was your opinion from the mountain of comments youve made, but others like me dont think its 100% certain-- 04:04, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

This just seems to be going in circles. A poll's the best way to resolve this whole debate. 04:06, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

No need. Just wait for more comments and we'll see if a clear majority is created. 04:07, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

How would that be better than a poll? We could just make a short 48 hour poll. 04:09, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Obvious Sabo is obvious... firstly Luffy's reaction, thinking he was dead. The image of the 3 cups of sake (Post-War Arc flashback anyone?), him being part of the Revolutionary Army with Koala (a character also previously from a flashback during the Fishman Island Arc), him feeling guilt (and possibly slight resentment) for Ace's death and also claiming he inherited Ace's will. Not to mention him already knowing all about Luffy... EXCLUSIVE PROOF! Only Sabo as a character remotely works for this reveal.JoJolion (talk) 04:12, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

lets poll this SO P B-- 04:12, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

There's absolutely no point. Stop trying to complicate things. Every single factor points to it being Sabo and you've already admitted to how obvious it is that it's Sabo. Doing a poll would be stupid and pointless because we all know without a shadow of a doubt that it's Sabo. --Mandon (talk) 04:15, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

* facepalm* we dont all believe its sabo without a shadow of a doubt which is exactly why were having this argument-- 04:17, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

+1 to Sabo. Those who are against it, you should probably realize that nothing in this manga is 100% certain (anyone could be Mr. 2 in disguise, for example). Stalling here would only make the wiki look worse than it does already. 04:21, December 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * so would adding this then having to take it off if it turns out to be false-- 04:23, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

The more people that post in favor of this not being speculation, the closer we move to a majority. Seems to be going in that direction now. 04:22, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Let's just do a 48 hour poll and get this over with. 04:22, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

No, we don't have to poll anything if there's a clear majority. 04:23, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Why poll when we can take what we have and run with it confidently? 04:26, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

to put the matter to rest without anymore arguments-- 04:28, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

No more arguments should happen because there's a clear majority right now. 04:32, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

there is a majority among users who are present right now, if we make a short poll that gives opportunity to users not present to vote then we would have a clear majority-- 04:35, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

That really isn't how we do things though. Clear majority is of those who have cared enough to post. 04:35, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Also, in response to your post to Zodiaque, it won't turn out to be false, because that's not how this story works. 04:38, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

A short poll isn't going to hurt and if it puts this discussion to an end it's worth it. 04:43, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

A poll is a waste of time. 04:44, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

You're really really being stubborn. A clear majority has been reached here. More people are bound to post that will push this into a few people rebelling against the majority. It's time to let this go, and put it to rest. It's Sabo 100% 04:45, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

If it isn't Sabo, I'll eat my hat. There's literally no other possible character that it could be, what with the "inherit Ace's will" spiel and the Luffy reaction. Anyone with a "shadow of doubt" who thinks there's any possible chance it could be someone else besides Sabo, bring a viable argument to the table instead of just saying "what if it isn't". If you can't do that, then there's no need for a poll. 04:47, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Mr. 2 in disguise? Come on... For one thing, anyone who follows the story should know how Oda writes even a little. Bentham's never met Sabo and he'd have no reason to use the disguise even if it was him. If Sabo knows Robin, a member of Luffy's crew, and she never brought it up, then that means Robin doesn't know he's Luffy's brother. And if he didn't tell a member of Luffy's own crew, why would he tell Mr. 2? This kind of needless speculation is riduclous. There is absolutely no argument to be had, it's very clearly Sabo and your entire argument is that there's "no confirmation". Well what do you call the three cups of sake? This entire argument is pointless. Mandon (talk) 04:51, December 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sounds like you're misinterpreting my deliberately crappy straw man argument. That wasn't referring to Mr. 2 being Sabo, but anyone in general. 05:02, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

We all know next week it will be confirmed as Sabo. We all know it. The fact that we all know it is in itself a confirmation of sorts. Either way, there's a clear majority. (count me as Pro-Sabo too) And even if we poll it doing so would be ultimately useless because it will be confirmed next week. Are we really gonna have a 3 day poll so we can (probably not) call a character still dead for 3 more days until we know he's alive? Pick your battles, people. This is a useless argument for us to be having now. 04:55, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Anyone in general... Anyone in general who knows Luffy and Ace, wears a top hat and wants to "inherit Ace's will" and left three cups of sake at his grave. Yeah, it could be anyone for sure. Mandon (talk) 05:06, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Everyone seems to be forgetting that this is Oda! For all we know the stranger is probably Sabo's messenger or friend! Notice that Oda carefully hides the strangers face and never reveals a name, but still gives extremely obvious hints. My guess is that Oda is purposely creating this to set up Sabo's appearance elsewhere. Please, until the author reveals the name and face lets keep the stranger as stranger! (Shadoguardian (talk) 05:44, December 11, 2013 (UTC))

It's Sabo. 05:46, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

STRANGER DANGER! SeaTerror (talk) 05:46, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Right. Sabo's messenger dresses exactly like Sabo. Sabo's messenger talks about Ace's will to Koala... Sabo's messenger drives Luffy to tears upon seeing his face. If it was just a messager telling him Sabo was alive, anyone would be skeptical, even Luffy, given the fact that Doflamingo's on the prowl and a master at mind fuckery like that.

EDIT: And you're right Shadoguardian. This is Oda. And that's exactly why your theory doesn't hold any ground. Oda's never misled the reader to this extent. It would be poor writing to just mislead you for the sake of misleading you.. Oda doesn't write like that. Never has, never will. Mandon (talk) 05:53, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Just; this isn't worth arguing about (even if I disagree about adding it to the page) since it will be resolved in a week anyway. 05:54, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Did, at any point in the chapter you see a name or face that proves this? I know the hints heavily indicate that Sabo is alive, and may be that the stranger could be Sabo, but lets not say so until it is revealed by Oda. It'll only make clean up more annoying if we go on this assumption, but later it is revealed that it was not Sabo! Leave it as the mysterious stranger, and we can include the correct links when it is officially revealed. (Shadoguardian (talk) 05:57, December 11, 2013 (UTC))

The end of the chapter shows that it's Sabo. 05:58, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

There isn't even a remote chance that it isn't him. Not a single chance, and I say that while being a skeptical reader myself. Any alternative conclusion you can come up with would be directly contradictory to how Oda writes, and that's just how it is. It's Sabo. It isn't speculation that it's Sabo. Just leave it be. If it isn't Sabo you can send me your paypal email and I'll honest to god send you fifty bucks. That's how obvious it is to me. Mandon (talk) 06:04, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

I say we should wait. We don't have neither the name nor the full appearance to confirm it. The only thing are the cups and Luffy's reaction, but still this could be some other person. I do believe it is Sabo but believing and confirming is a different matter.

Too late. SeaTerror (talk) 08:24, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Too late to realize we could wrong later on? or to late to go with not adding anything until confirmed? 12:26, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Wow how come I didn't notice this. Anyway, I think it's pretty obvious it's Sabo (*screams internally*) but we don't have anything to put in the page yet. Just wait a week.. 12:31, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

It was confirmed a the end. It's Sabo. 12:54, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

It was confirmed at the end that Sabo was alive, it wasn't confirmed that the guy was Sabo, despite everyones insistence. (Shadoguardian (talk) 13:29, December 11, 2013 (UTC))

I agree that this person is definitely Sabo but we face a dilemma here as a wiki. Either go ahead and use speculation to update the article or wait for confirmation from hard facts (either his name or face revealed). In my honest opinion the issue isn't about Sabo being dead or not but where we draw the line between conjecture and actuality. Either way we must define with clarity where speculation ends and the facts begin so we are better prepared to handle situations like these in the future! MasterDeva (talk) 15:19, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Agreed with what Deva said, this is not a matter if he is the one in Chap 731 since that is obvious, but if we should add it before a proper confirmation. 15:44, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

It's Sabo. Just leave it be, there isn't even a remote chance that it isn't him and you all know it too. You're making this way more complicated than it needs to be. If it wasn't Sabo, but just a guy telling Luffy that Sabo's alive, he wouldn't react in that way and reach out for a hug. He'd be skeptical, especially given how Doflamingo likes to manipulate people. By using simple logic it's very clear that it's Sabo Luffy saw, not someone informing him of Sabo's survival. And lastly, they wouldn't hype up a messenger to this extent. Why would Oda neglect to reveal his face? Why would he make him go fight in the arena to attain a fruit that belonged to a dead person he has no sentiment towards whatsoever? Honestly.. this entire debate is so ridiculous and pointless. Mandon (talk) 19:22, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with MasterDeva, though I don't think it's actually possible to define with clarity where speculation ends (because that's kinda subjective, e.g., people who think Monet is dead are actually entirely convinced it is not speculation). Anyway, in this case, Oda is strongly implying that it's Sabo, and we have no reason to doubt it, so stating it as a fact is OK. Or we should start doubting anything that hasn't been formally stated (Sanji's gender, for example).

I'm with Sff here. We definitely have enough to prove that it's Sabo. The fact that he hasn't been named isn't enough to stop us from adding content about him. My only problem with doing this is the way we're wording certain articles. Like this example from Chapter 731 "Luffy, Bartolomeo, and Bellamy encounter a stranger, who is revealed to be Sabo, currently a member of the Revolutionary Army." The problem with it is the "revealed to be Sabo" part. While the chapter gives us enough evidence to say that it is Sabo, we're also giving the false impression that the chapter formally reveals Sabo, which it does not. I'm not quite sure how we should resolve that situation and I think that type of issue is what we should move toward discussing. 20:49, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

So funny to read the Sabo-is-dead guys naming 'stupid' the Sabo-is-alive guys in this talk's previous old sections. Don't forget: only Manga—cover story, inside story & SBS—is CANON, absolute canon. It should be a supreme rule during arguments. Alelucas (talk) 00:31, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

There really is no way to properly gauge whether or not something can be moved from speculation to conjecture. It's been done in the past through contemplative analysis and collective agreement. For instance, we're confident this man is Sabo based on what was presented, despite not actually seeing his face or whatever. A couple chapters earlier, Law looked like he was dead after Doflamingo used his chest for target practice, but we didn't jump ahead and call him dead, which turns out was the right course of action. Basically, it can be decided whether or not it's speculation by determining how much room for error there is with the decision we make. We had nothing to suggest to the contrary that the dark figure was Sabo, but there was plenty to suggest that we let Law lie as to whether or not he still drew breath. As much as I'd like there to be a proper system for deciding this, it can't be done to any degree of ease (it can be done, but I'm not an actuary). We'll have to go with a collective opinion based on rationale and guts. 00:49, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

I understand, DP. However I feel shocked how ferocius some guys discuss(ed) even though they were not backed by Manga. You said: "we're confident this man is Sabo based on what was presented, despite not actually seeing his face or whatever." But we SAW a jacket, a white scarp, a top hat (in hand), all signature clothing we used to see Sabo wearing. The final lines of the chapter only made us sure that the shadowed guy is Sabo. It's the same thing about Law's possible death. I've remarked in that talk that Law's eyes were not how Oda use to drawn eyes of dead guys. Manga is about panels above all, not lines. Alelucas (talk) 01:14, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

Right, but we've been burned before, mainly in the form of Pell. And I agree, all that we saw should be more than enough to call that person Sabo, but some people (ie those disagreeing) just aren't comfortable enough with the data presented to make such a firm declaration. And in some cases I understand. Most of the time I'm all for playing it safe and waiting it out, but there are times like this when we are faced with such overwhelming certainty that it would be silly not to declare it. It almost makes us look bad as a whole look bad to say something might be this way when such overwhelming evidence says it is. People really are afraid of getting burned by being wrong. And I don't blame them. Being declarative and wrong makes everybody look stupid. I can't think of a time we've been burned by jumping to conclusions recently (Monet and Vergo are irrelevant), but still some people just want to be overly cautious regardless. 01:24, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

ICAM Alelucas (talk) 01:30, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with sff9. I don't think it's the first time we make this kind of decision and I think "the line" between mere speculation and "safe assumption" is just how much space is there for doubt or error. If there is legitimate doubt of that man being Sabo, we shouldn't write it. You can say that since we didn't have a confirmation he can be anyone, but that wouldn't be logical or coherent with what was shown, hence that possibility is negligible as much is the possibility that the whole story of One Piece is actually a dream of unknown guy (like in Jinginai Time).

we should wait-- 02:15, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

No need Raven, clear majority here, plus it's 100% Sabo. 02:17, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

i disagree-- 02:19, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

You can disagree with it being 100% Sabo, but not with there being a clear majority. It's time for you to drop it. 02:20, December 12, 2013 (UTC)