Forum:Unknown Devil Fruit confirmation and speculation issues.

Good day everyone!
I'd like to address the way, we deal with unnamed devil fruits, after a recent discussion on the devil fruits talkpage. Currently, the way we handle things is essentially ''Can't explain it? Must be a devil fruit then.'', which is not the proper way to handle the unknown. To make things even more speculative we even categorise the unnamed devil fruit into unidentified and possible as seen here. This is completely unacceptable in my opinion.

My suggestion
Either:

a) rewrite the devil fruit page and all the unnamed fruit pages to be less speculative

or

b)At least take out the possible devil fruits

or

c) Keep it the way it is.

Previous discussion [+]
 

How are they not?
''Ok, I can maybe bring myself to see how Laffitte's is not a Devil Fruit, but how the hell are Onigumo and Blamenco not Devil Fruit users? Onigumo, in addition to the hair thing, grows a giant spider abdomen on his back. Last I checked, Lucci and Kumadori couldn't grow an additional butt. As for Blamenco, how is that not a Devil Fruit? He pulled a hammer three times his size out of his body in a way that suggests condensed space. I don't see how these two can't be Devil Fruits. 15:59, August 13, 2011 (UTC)''

''The problem is that this is completely your conclusion (not only yours, I admit). I don't understand, even if I try the best I can, why we have to come to a consensus where their abilties stem from? Why can't we state what we know and be done with it? We had several characters in the past where a possible Devil Fruit suddenly turned into a regular (but still somewhat freakish) ability. Paulie can store an unreal amount of robes "somwhere", Miss Goldenweek can control peoples emotions by simply painting a certain color on them, Shojou can destroy ships with his soundwaves etc.''

''But this isn't really a question of who is a Devil Fruit user or not, more of how we approach the uncertain. And I'm simply against conclusions because they are unnecessary and might lead to confusion. I'm going to hold a quick vote when the discussion here ended, just to see where people generally stand when it comes to conclusions. Or maybe a real forum, probably the better choice. 16:42, August 13, 2011 (UTC)''

''Well, Miss Goldenweek and Shojo have been confirmed to not be fruit users. My general rule of thumb for deciding what's a fruit or not is if i can't find any other way that power could occur. If it were just Onigumo's hair, I can see how it might not be, but he grew an abdomen of another creature. I don't care what you say, the abdomen is not Life Return. As for Blamenco, what else could it be? 16:49, August 13, 2011 (UTC)''

''This isn't a battle of conclusions DancePowderer. The fact that we resort to them is my problem. I'm simply against spreading uncomfirmed information, that is all. And I don't understand why anyone would want that on a wiki. 17:18, August 13, 2011 (UTC)''

''Then why wasn't this brought up with any other Devil Fruit user? Epoida, Dalmatian, it was never stated that either of them are fruit users yet they've demonstrated abilities that are clearly the results of eating Devil Fruits. How are these guys any different than Onigumo and Blamenco? Both of them have demonstrated abilities that are clearly inhuman and yet you doubt them. Would you have added Akainu to the possibly a Devil Fruit list until the name was given? It never said Bege, Apoo, Bonney, and Hawkins were fruit users so you might as well take them off too. How are these two under question? 20:44, August 13, 2011 (UTC)''

''Agree with DP. I'm against on puting stuff that's not revealed in the manga but Blamenco and Onigumo are in the same category as the Supernovas. Why cant we put them under unnamed devil fruits.?? That or delete all the unnamed Devil Fruits... ''

''I kinda agree with you, but the example of the supernovæ also illustrates Jinbe's point. I never doubted they had devil fruits, probably because everyone acts as if it is confirmed. It should be the backbone of an encyclopedia to not participate in spreading'' misinformation. I'm not sure whether we should remove Bege, Apoo, et al. from the list, but it should at least be more clear that it is speculation.

''This goes back to what we were discussing on the trivia forum. There is official confirmation, and then there is reader observation and concensus. There was logical and arguable discrepency about Urouge and Doflamingo's powers, so they were put in another section. When it comes to the others, after examining all the facts, you have to ask yourself "What else could it be?". The powers are abnormal and can't be explained in any other way besides coming from a Devil Fruit, so where is the problem? 04:04, August 15, 2011 (UTC)''

''For the devil fruits in question you can actually come up with some sort of explanation, not particularly probable, but reasonable. Blamenco; surgically installed body pockets + inflatable hammer; Lafitte: Ikaros comes to mind; Onigumo: Hair (?); For the other unnamed devil fruits, like the supernova ones, it's nigh impossible to come up with reasonable explanations, (except maybe bonney) that's why blamenco et al. are more in question than others in my opinion. 09:49, August 15, 2011 (UTC)''

Devil_Fruit...I say it serves no purpose,those things must be on forums not on pages,what do ya think?--

''I don't see how DancePowderer is wrong about what he said above. Both Dalmation and Onigumo have displayed clear characteristics found in the Zoan category of Devil Fruit users, which has a standard set of rules and is completely different from the "random" powers of the Paramecia type! It is playing ignorant to say that they're not. The reason for being this is the series of clues that were present in the manga and not because "everyone acts as if it is confirmed" or something.''

''Next there is Apoo, who can transform his body into musical instruments. Is that the Logia power of "music" or the power coming from a Zoan type of fruit? Of course not, so it's Paramecia. According to Oda himself, "any preposterous situations are all created by the Devil Fruits" which is very important. It's okay to put aside Urouge and Doflamingo since there is too much mystery surrounding them but for clear cases like the aforementioned ones above it's simple really. MasterDeva 11:52, August 15, 2011 (UTC)''


 * "The reason for being this is the series of clues that were present in the manga and not because "everyone acts as if it is confirmed" or something." →I was talking about the supernovæ, not Dalmatian, Onigumo, or Blamenco. And I didn't say "I thought Apoo, Bonney, et al. have Devil Fruit powers because everyone acts as if it's confirmed", but rather "I thought it was confirmed that Apoo, Bonney, et al. have Devil Fruit powers because everyone acts as if it's confirmed". Nobody plays ignorant here, I don't say that they're not DF users, I say that we don't know for sure, and that it should be clearly stated.


 * Your quote from Oda is invalidated by Jinbe's examples (Paulie, Shojo, Miss Goldenweek). Oda says that aside from the DF magic, "everything else is normal", but we don't know what he refers to by "normal". In my conception of "normality", there are no giants or fishmen. 


 * I know that you were talking about the Supernovas... I was just trying to point out the apparent elements in the manga showing us they have Devil Fruit abilities and not just "people's opinions" in general. Furthermore your sentence above becomes invalidated because Oda has already confirmed that Paulie, Shojo, Miss Goldenweek are not Devil Fruit users through either the manga or the SBS which isn't the case for Apoo and the others! This is something that Jinbe didn't mention in his example above. MasterDeva 14:00, August 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * Er, I think there's a misunderstanding… Jinbe's point is that they are confirmed non-DF users… What he meant is that Paulie, Shojo, and Miss Goldenweek are proofs that in the One Piece world, there exists "abnormal" powers not created by a Devil Fruit. 

''Theres always the option once held of the wikia; unless its proven its not going on the page. I can't remember why we started putting them on the page... I DO remember we then started putting them on the sub-Devil Fruits page and then had to move it to the main DF page because sometimes identifying Logia and Parmecia was complex and it was just easier to have everything on this page rather then any other. Which reminds me, I need to check we're still doing that. One-Winged Hawk 15:15, August 15, 2011 (UTC)''

Feel free to leave your input below! 15:21, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

Discussion
When you say pages, you mean the section in the page that lists them, right? Anyway. I think having it is a good idea. We want to be as in-depth as possible and just because we don't know a fruit's name doesn't mean we should ignore it. As for the possible Devil Fruits, I'm split on that. On the one-hand, there is what I said previously, where we want to stay thorough, on the other it can be speculation to assume them to come from Devil Fruits. I kind of think it should stay, since they have made enough people ask themselves if Doflamingo's or Urouge's or Rakuyo's weapon and abilities have Devil Fruit origins. I also think it might be a good idea to keep it to avoid people putting unconfirmed information on their pages. A lot of people instantly assume Devil Fruit, so having that section may help to curb that. 15:44, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

Anyway... I think we should handle every unconfirmed Devil Fruit the way we did with Doflamingo:

Miscellaneous Skills <<<<(instead of Devil Fruit)

''In addition to controlling people, Doflamingo has demonstrated that he can effortlessly slice off body parts. He managed to cleanly sever Oars Jr.'s right leg in one swift motion and decapitated Crocodile, though Crocodile's Logia powers only made this a nuisance. Whether his abilities stem from a Devil Fruit or from some other means, or if it is related to his controlling ability, is unknown, even if it would seem that the two mysterious abilities derive from his fingers moving.''

We can perfectly cover the "might be a DF" aspect while keeping things as neutral as possible (the speculation is on the readers part, not ours)-- 00:54, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Can we put something on the Devil Fruit page along the lines of "There are also many abilities that may stem from Devil Fruits, such as Doflamingo and Lafitte." Otherwise, the above idea sounds good to me. 03:26, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

B for me. We already had that argument on the Devil Fruit talk page. They were allowed to stay in as a compromise however they should never have been there in the first place. SeaTerror 09:39, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

I totally agree with Jinbe. However I don't think this forum is meant to deal with character articles.

Actually character articles go hand in hand with the devil fruit page. Take Lafittes for example, at the moment we treat him like we don't know where his ability stems from (which is absolutely neutral and right if we want to take an objective approach):

Miscellaneous Skills

'''Aside from his navigation, Laffitte demonstrated several other abilities. He appears to possess an ability that allows him to obtain wings and fly.[4] If this power stems from a Devil Fruit or not is currently unknown.'''

The perfect solution to treat cases like him. We don't act like Oda, but point at possibilities.

Yet on the Devil Fruit page Lafitte is under the unnamed Devil Fruit section, like it's certain. --Jinbe

Agree.. We dont know yet whats going on with his ability. We cant speculate if its a Devil Fruit or not. 'Miscellaneous Skills' and the paragraph can do the work yeah.


 * Yup, all character pages should be worded like that. About the list, there should at least be a clear difference between actual unnamed fruits, like Drake's (if I recall correctly it is a confirmed but unnamed fruit) and speculative ones, like Laffitte's.
 * But I think DP has a point: a list of miscellaneous powers that are not confirmed to stem from a devil fruit is valuable info, and can be a sort of mythbusters, like "Oh, I was sure Doflamingo was a DF user." That's really close to pure speculation though.
 * Anyway, this should be reworded. This totally cannot remain as it is.

Ok, I can see this working for the iffy abilities, like Doflamingo and Laffitte, but what about the ones where you'd have to be blind, deaf, and dumb to think an ability doesn't stem from a Devil Fruit? Like Epoida's. Are you going to say it is possible for there to exist a subspecies of humans that can transform into caterpillars? Or Apoo's, Kid's, or Bege's. Are you going to say those might be Devil Fruit too? For ones that I classify as "without a doubt, you'd have to be kidding yourself to think these aren't" Devil Fruit powers, they should be left alone on the pages and in the unknown fruits section. 22:01, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Not about the obvious ones of course.. Of course Apoo's, Kid's and Bege's are devil fruits.. Akainu's wasnt named too, but we knew it was.. Laffitte's and DoFlamingo's may be Paramecias too, but we cant tell exactly until Oda reveals the name of that Devil Fruit like he did with Akainu..

And if we should go with 'all together or none at all', i'll go with all.. Cause its really unoriginal to say its a devil fruit or not. We're just speculate things, even if they are obvious enough.

For the obvious ones: "Unnamed Devil Fruits" section. For the slightly less obvious ones: leave those to the individual character pages. Some of them may be apparent, but for all we know there could be something like a werewolf clan..... 22:34, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Depends on what you mean by obvious. SeaTerror 05:29, January 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * Exactly. Laffitte is a good example of this.
 * Anyway, it is obvious Bonney and Capone ate a devil fruit. But as obvious as it can be, it's not confirmed. Are we going to allow any unconfirmed but obvious fact to be stated in articles? This will lead to polls and other such complications. "No speculation at all" is a much simpler rule to enforce. Even "it is unconfirmed whether it's a Devil Fruit or not" is a concession.


 * Obvious: Drake. Not obvious: Lafitte. My policy is that if they haven't explicitely been stated as DF users, then they aren't "obvious". My policy only. 17:12, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

Lafitte is definitely obvious. Ones like Doflamingo are not. Its highly doubtful he even has one. SeaTerror 17:22, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

Pretty much agree with Sff9.

But DancePowderer has a point with the "obvious" ones...thats why this topic is so controversial and needs to be sorted. As we can already see, the perception of what is "obvious" and what is not already differs between PX15 and Seaterror, and the discussion only just started.

Let's take an "obvious" one, Capone Bedge. What would speak against converting his Devil Fruit section into this:

- We point out that he has an extraordinary ability

- We describe the ability in detail

- We credit that it might stem from a DF, when appropriate

That way we stay as objective as we can, without ignoring possibilities. Of course the wording in the above example can be changed, just that you get the general idea behind my argument.-- 17:55, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

That sounds good to me, but I think that the real issue is the "obvious" thing. We need to determine exactly what that means. As I have stated, I think that only those who have been stated to have DF's should be considered "obvious". I know Lafitte's seems obvious, but for all we know, it could be some shape-shifting, or another form of hypnotism. I personally think that it is a DF, as well as Doflamingo's, but until we have confirmation, maybe it shouldn't be posted. 01:14, January 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * Those who have been stated to have Devil Fruits are not "obvious", they are "confirmed". The problem is about obvious but unconfirmed fruits, such as Bonney's or Capone's.


 * So who is gonna decide which ones are "obvious"or not? Are we gonna go all or nothing? Or have a few people decide which ones they think are devil fruits or not? 20:18, January 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * The problem is that we have to decide about the unconfirmed to begin with, like we are forced to offer a definite explanation. But thats not the job of the wiki, its the authors. We document what is handed to us and merely point at possible connections. However, naming a paragraph on the character article "Devil Fruit" and listing him/her as an unnamed Devil Fruit user (while there was never any confirmation) isn't pointing at possibilities.
 * Thats why I believe the above example with Bedge is a good middle way between staying objective and crediting what many readers believe to be the case. The "amount of credit" could vary from character to character, depending or how many hints are handed to us.
 * We simply go from :


 * "XYZ is an unnamed devil fruit user, because his ability shares some similarities with other DF users"


 * to


 * "XYZ possesses an extraordinary ability [...explanation of the ability] Its freakish nature points to a possible devil fruit power.


 * We don't ignore, we simply reword in order to stay as objective as we can. 12:45, January 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * The best is to take care all of the unnamed Devil Fruit users. Even if they're obvious. I like the second example -"XYZ possesses an extraordinary ability- and then explain the ability. Under 'Abilities and Powers'.


 * We cant say, -it might be a Devil Fruit-.. That's playing Oda right there.. Just like we speculate Sabo is dead, without seeing his body.. We should wait for them to be confirmed like Akainu's.


 * Ok, well how do you classify these on the DF page? Are we gonna have a "Confirmed and Named" section, a "Confirmed but Unnamed" section, and a "Probably a Devil Fruit, but Unconfirmed" section? 13:39, January 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * Under 'Abilities and Powers', like any normal character in this wiki...

@Pacifista


 * Well, I would either suggest:
 * List of known Devil Fruits
 * - Gomu Gomu no Mi etc.


 * List of unnamed Devil Fruit users
 * - X Drakes ancient Zoan fruit
 * - Marco's mythical Zoan fruit etc.


 * Possible DF related abilities (however this could be optional or not wanted to begin with, if we take the hardcore approach described by LPK)
 * - Capone Bedge
 * - Bonney
 * - Doflamingo etc.


 * 13:49, January 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * Fine then, let's go with that..... 13:53, January 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * Something along these lines should be fine.


 * Bumping since the forum ticker is flooded with...old stuff? 11:44, January 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me, I say we go with this!


 * Seems people pretty much agree with the proposal, still waiting a bit longer before opening the poll. 15:03, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

I like how it is currently minus the possible Devil Fruit list. SeaTerror 19:39, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

I will note that we did once have a page dedicated to all possible DFs, but the page wasn't solid enough to suport itself and was merged with DF because it was supported better by being on there. I wouldn't go back on that path but I will note it once existed. Quite honestly, speculative and unconfirmed DFs have always been a headache since Dolflmagino, though its now confirmed DF with him he was the one who started the while issues we had off back then. One-Winged Hawk 16:05, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

What? Doflamingo was never confirmed to have a Devil Fruit. SeaTerror 18:08, January 14, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, Doflamingo is on that category too.. Its not confirmed yet. A poll should be good on this forum.. Someone has to start it..

I just noticed that some unconfirmed users such as onigumo and laffitte were in the category "devil fruit users", which is unacceptable. 13:30, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Bump 17:03, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

Has this been implemented yet? 17:31, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

There was never a vote. SeaTerror 18:47, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

But there will be soon. I try to get a first version up during the weekend (which will be up for critics first as usual). 18:51, February 23, 2012 (UTC)