@Sean 175

Luffy never knocked out or killed Kizaru. Plus, neither never said one was overall superior to other or showed they can keep the advantage over the other throughout their fight. If Luffy was truly stronger than an admiral, he would have dominated the fight similar to how Katakuri did to Luffy or at least knocked him out once like he did Lucci.

You sure you read everything? Luffy didn't knock out Lucci. He knocked him down for a minute before he left. Lucci is seen getting punched and getting up relatively ok in the same episode, something Doffy or Kaido didn't do when punched by Luffy.

I’ve technically already explained. Plus, if you’ve seen the Dressrosa arc you know I’m right. Doffy showed no fear to a former Admiral and even tried to kick Issho.

Ok so if I show no fear and try to kick a nuke that's about to blow up does that mean I'm as strong as the nuke? Doffy's pretty bad at gauging his opponent, this is a perfect example of that. Issho can easily use his gravity to stop Doffys strings. It's common knowledge that a single warlord is almost always weaker than an admiral.

He fought both Luffy and Law(even beat Law) made both of them struggle greatly.

Ok? Why are you saying him beating Law like it's some great feat? This isn't the version of Law who could tag team Big Mom, this isn't the Law who could go toe to toe with Blackbeard, no, this is a Law with a mere 440k bounty, with no DF awakening, no haki, etc. The only useful thing he did was Shambles himself all over the place before he got wrecked. This version of Luffy isn't remotely impressive either. He has a 400k bounty, has no advanced version of haki, no Snakeman, etc.

Despite all the harsh attacks he got from them he still continued to be incredibly strong.

Thank you for proving my point. Doffy was incredibly strong when fighting Luffy and guess what? He lost. His injuries did nothing to his strength.

Dude literally had practically everyone working together to hold back his Bird Cage(including Admiral Issho)

Fujitora never attempted to break out of it, From the time Fujitora fought sabo it was obvious he was holding back at all points for luffy to defeat flamingo. This is mainly because he didn't want to receive any of the praise. He literally says that "his honour and responsibility as an agent of the world governments prevented him from taking any action" so he didn't do it.

and was still able to fight Luffy and use his Awakening powers at the same time before finally losing.

Key word. He still lost. Lost to a non Ryuo King Kong Gun which is infinitely less powerful than a punch from Gear 5. Like ok, do you really think that Doffy, who was on the ropes against Luffy who had 1. no future sight 2. no CoC 3. No CoA/Ryuo 4. no gear fifth 5. no snakeman can stand up against Lucci, who fought Luffy who had ALL these things and a better control over Gear Fifth than when he fought Kaido and STILL managed to keep up with him for awhile? If that's what you think then Doffy can box with Kaido or something lol I'm not sure how you reason this in our mind

The proof is literally in the Canon. I challenge you and everyone here to go back and reread/watch those arcs or at least the fighting parts. You’ll see that I’m right.

I like how you continue to ignore the proof I'm giving you and just saying "You'll see I'm right." Without addressing the fact that Luffy Gear 5 punch is >>>>>>>>>>>>> than King Kong Gun. But it can't be helped because you have nothing to refute my claim do you?

And you say the proof is "in the canon" so is mine lol

@Panda D King 😂 that’s harsh man. U know that man an Admiral.

@InevitaPICKLE yes I’m sure,dude eyes literally rolled to back of his head and noted he was losing consciousness. We then later see him not only conscious and practically dressed back up again(showing that some time had went by).

😂 Shows how confident they are at least! Dude

Great feat…I don’t know about that but it was still impressive. That’s some serious downplaying of old Law and Luffy strength but ok.

It did nothing to his strength you say…ok.

Forgot about that one. 😮

So are saying if Mingo had won u would find the idea more appealing then? 🤔

I’m not ignoring anything. I’ve already explained to you why I believe Mingo can fight current Rob Lucci in the most simplest ways as I could and backed it with canon(&logic). You’re the one ignoring things since you keep down playing and swinging back around to things like “Luffy has clearly gotten stronger since Dressrosa arc,look at his new feats,and G5 power”. Then saying things like G5 is >>>>>>>>> Kong gun and that I have nothing to refute the claim😅.

I’m sure,dude eyes literally rolled to back of his head and noted he was losing consciousness. We then later see him not only conscious and practically dressed back up again(showing that some time had went by).

In the anime, Luccis eyes roll back but he is clearly still conscious as we can hear his thoughts. However, The second Luffy left Lucci rose from the rebel looking relatively okay. And yes time went by. Like a couple minutes. Yes that's how long it was since the train which had speed unlike anything the Straw hats had been on before, hadn't even reached the lab by the time he got up and killed sentomaru.

😂 Shows how confident they are at least! Dude

Confidence means nothing if you're going to lose anyway buddy.

Great feat…I don’t know about that but it was still impressive. That’s some serious downplaying of old Law and Luffy strength but ok.

In what ways? If low balling means facts then sure buddy. Tell something legitimately impressive that either one did that would prove impressive when compared to current Luffy and or Lucci.

It did nothing to his strength you say…ok.

It doesn't change the fact that both were using their strongest attacks and both were severely injured. Doffy was shown to be relatively ok. He stitched himself internally with strings. Meanwhile Luffy took a ton of hits too and took arguably more damage so idk why youre wanking Doffy way higher than he is.

So are saying if Mingo had won u would find the idea more appealing then? 🤔

Depends. If he curb stomped them then ofc I would. But he didn't... And once again Luffy took more damage than Doffy in the first place.

I’m not ignoring anything. I’ve already explained to you why I believe Mingo can fight current Rob Lucci in the most simplest ways as I could and backed it with canon(&logic).

If canon and logic to you means that Doffy who lost to Luffy, is past the level of Admirals, than sure you have. Without using the KKG example, here's a different way of looking at it.

The heiarchy looks like this (generally):

Warlords<Admirals<=>Yonkos Right hand men<Yonko<Five Elders.

So Doffy is at the bottom of that list right? Even if somehow we want him to Admiral level, which I'm not sure how you reason out, Admirals have canonically been afraid of Yonkos right hand men before, which are stronger than Yonkos, which is the level Luffy is at. Yes, he beat Kaido and is at his level. Idk why people ignore the fact that although Kaido was tired, Luffy had suffered WAY more damage than Kaido. A fresh Luffy can still beat Kaido.

And even ignoring all THAT, Luffy is ABOVE Admiral level, as he beat Kizaru, so at the very least even if we high all Doffy and low all Luffy, Luffy still wins.

Lucci was able to box with a G5 Luffy for awhile, before getting knocked into rubble for a couple minutes, but was still able to compete with Zoro after that. He tanked punches (not the last hit from Luffy but all the other ones) from a Gear fifth Luffy before the Dawn rocket got him. Doffy couldn't do that. Not in a million years.

You’re the one ignoring things since you keep down playing and swinging back around to things like “Luffy has clearly gotten stronger since Dressrosa arc,look at his new feats,and G5 power”. Then saying things like G5 is >>>>>>>>> Kong gun and that I have nothing to refute the claim😅.

And you have yet to disprove it. If my point still stands i will wait for you to attempt and address it as I have been doing to all your points. You can try to weasel your way around it, but you can't really disprove it can u?

And I apologize for the aggressive tone. I'm trying not to sound like this but I'm genuinely not trying to offend you here just letting you know.

@InevitaPICKLE He noted himself that he was losing consciousness and in between those brief minutes he didn’t come right back to continue the fight. It was brief but he definitely lost consciousness for a bit,then quickly recovered due to him being an Awakened Zoan.

Confidence can help make or break a fighter’s chances winning though.

Because those versions of Luffy and Law were still powerful and noteworthy. That same level of strength was shown helping Luffy even survive fights with Admiral level fighters.

It’s not an exaggeration,it technically took both Luffy and Law working together to beat him. His strength and DF powers made him a legitimate threat Marines had to send an Admiral to deal with. Not to mention he took a couple of nasty blows from G4 Luffy, a version of Luffy that allowed him to significantly hurt foes much stronger than Doffy and himself.

Mm,makes sense. Can’t say I agree Luffy took more damage than Mingo. Especially by the end of it.

Canon and logic to me means using the facts from the series to support one’s argument. Your hierarchy isn’t half bad,the five elders and Yonko right hand positions are off in my opinion though. We agree that a Yonko is stronger than an Admiral. But Luffy is definitely not Yonko level,he’s only Admiral level in strength. Luffy would have easily knocked out Lucci without a fight and knocked out Kizaru within a couple of blows. Nah,Kaido received waay more damage and fought longer than Luffy(Luffy got a brief break and got to eat to recover his full strength as well). Btw,Lucci fought Zoro on a different day and Luffy never beat Kizaru.

But I have disproved it. I’ve been trying to tell you that current Luffy is Admrial level and that Mingo like current Lucci strength fall close up under it. I swear I'm not weaseling out of anything 😂.

I appreciate the apology! We’re good man 👍.

He noted himself that he was losing consciousness and in between those brief minutes he didn’t come right back to continue the fight. It was brief but he definitely lost consciousness for a bit,then quickly recovered due to him being an Awakened Zoan.

I mean, plenty of characters have added out before and still been not counted out of a fight (ex. Luffy getting knocked out in his final fight against Kaido but still being counted as the victor later int he same fight). Passing out /=/ losing the fight. Besides Lucci took other attacks other than Dawn rocket before that and was ok. Doffys attacks aren't on that level, so yeah.

Confidence can help make or break a fighter’s chances winning though.

It clearly didn't help Luffy much against Kaido. Some power differences are too big to where confidence does nothing. In this case, it doesn't help Doffy beat Issho and def not beat Lucci.

Because those versions of Luffy and Law were still powerful and noteworthy. That same level of strength was shown helping Luffy even survive fights with Admiral level fighters.

Well for one, this is a Luffy with less than a third of the bounty he had on Egghead. Surviving is a big difference than beating which he did on Egghead. All he did was barely take a couple of blows... with help from like all the captains of the WB pirates.

It’s not an exaggeration,it technically took both Luffy and Law working together to beat him. His strength and DF powers made him a legitimate threat Marines had to send an Admiral to deal with.

Again, the Admiral could've beat him. Just cause they sent an Admiral doesn't mean Doffy is Admiral level. Now if he actually beat Issho then he's it's say smth, but he never did. He only threw a kick that did nothing.

Not to mention he took a couple of nasty blows from G4 Luffy, a version of Luffy that allowed him to significantly hurt foes much stronger than Doffy and himself.

Two things here. One, you just admitted that opponents Luffy fought in the future were stronger than Doffy... And Luffy beat them.

When did king Kong gun EVER do damage to an opponent stronger than Doffy. Let's see when he used it.

Cracker. Didn't work and def didn't one shot

Katakuri- Did nothing needed Snakeman and King Cobra instead

Kaido- Did nothing. Even was called weak as heck (and a regular punch with Ryuo ofc in base later did more damage)

Mm,makes sense. Can’t say I agree Luffy took more damage than Mingo. Especially by the end of it.

Thank you for repeating what I just said. Luffy took much more damage than Doffy and still beat him.

Canon and logic to me means using the facts from the series to support one’s argument. Your hierarchy isn’t half bad,the five elders and Yonko right hand positions are off in my opinion though. We agree that a Yonko is stronger than an Admiral. But Luffy is definitely not Yonko level,he’s only Admiral level in strength. Luffy would have easily knocked out Lucci without a fight and knocked out Kizaru within a couple of blows.

So again, if he beat Kizaru with a couple blows, how does that mean he's only Admiral level, same as someone who he just beat easily.

Nah,Kaido received waay more damage and fought longer than Luffy(Luffy got a brief break and got to eat to recover his full strength as well).

Yes that was after his second fight. Luffy then recovered somewhat and took him on a third time. This is the fight that I'm talking about where both dealt significant damage to the other and Luffy suffered one of Kaidos biggest attacks to even the playing field. If that doesn't even things out I don't know what would.

Btw,Lucci fought Zoro on a different day

Uh yeah and?

and Luffy never beat Kizaru.

He was lying on the ground and wiped...

But I have disproved it. I’ve been trying to tell you that current Luffy is Admrial level and that Mingo like current Lucci strength fall close up under it.

If he's at his level of strength, how would he beat Lucci?

True,but none of them mention feeling themselves losing consciousness as they were knocked off panel or screen(Luffy definitely lost when he lost consciousness those three times,sadly the third one was only counted officially since it was also believed he had died). Why wouldn’t he be able to, Doffy is very strong with haki and DF powers (that have also awakened)to help make his attacks much stronger and deadly.

In the short term,no. But in the long term it did,he finally beat Kaido despite the strength difference and constant losses. Similar to how he did with Katakuri,confidence definitely helps get the job done. It could possibly help Doffy beat Issho and more so with Lucci.

When I said Admrial level fighters, I was mostly referring to the Sweet commanders that he had to fight during Whole cake island arc(and briefly Issho before said arc). Luffy fought them,got beat up by them,and still managed to win(or survive) the encounters despite being weaker.

I don’t doubt that Issho could have beat him since he was and still is stronger than Mingo. I’m not saying that made Doffy Admiral level either, just pointing out what canon told us and showed us. Which is that Dof was (and still technically is) a dangerous individual that an Admiral level fighter has a higher chance of beating(but still needs to be careful of).

Why is me admitting that a problem or being considered ? Except we know that the Kong gun alone wasn’t the only factor that contributed to why Doffy lost to it. Luffy confirmed that Mingo was already on his last leg and then tricked Doffy to follow him high up in the air an punched him soo hard dude got sent crashing down from a great height at a crazy speed into the not so soft pavement.

I was saying that I disagree and that by the end of the fight it became more so apparent. I’ll start being more definitive from now on.

Another misunderstanding here(was typing to fast there),was trying to say only Yonko level Luffy could have beaten Kizaru with a couple of blows(and since Lucci would have still been considered weaker than Kizaru,that Yonko level Luffy would have blitzed Lucci like how Kaido did to him)But since he’s not Yonko level, he failed to thoroughly beat Kizaru(didn’t even make him lose consciousness once)and ended up beating Lucci in a mid diff fight instead of a low diff one(which I’m sure would happen to Doff as well).

Sorry but it doesn’t. Kaido had taken waaay to many blows from multiple people,crazy thing he’s partly responsible for letting good chunk of it happen himself when he let everyone try out their attacks on him to test their strength and then later during his third fight with Luffy. Dude got drunk and slick let some more attacks hit him due to his drunken antics.

You’re last post made it seem like Lucci fought Luffy and Zoro on the same day.

Are talking about the moment when their first fight ended in a stalemate? Because both him and Luffy were lying on the ground wiped out ish. No one can claim victory from that.

Either by knocking him out with a strong attack (or combination of attacks) or try killing him by skewering him.

True,but none of them mention feeling themselves losing consciousness as they were knocked off panel or screen(Luffy definitely lost when he lost consciousness those three times,sadly the third one was only counted officially since it was also believed he had died).

Right, but Lucci didn't die here... I see your point, but all I'm trying to say is Lucci had more in the tank, If Luffy didn't leave he could've kept going.

Why wouldn’t he be able to, Doffy is very strong with haki and DF powers (that have also awakened)to help make his attacks much stronger and deadly.

Huh? What are you referring to here? Sorry what "wouldn't he not be able to do?" Lucci also has very strong haki, same level as Doffy if not higher, he has his 6 power techniques, and also an awakened DF to make him stronger and more deadly.

In the short term,no. But in the long term it did,he finally beat Kaido despite the strength difference and constant losses. Similar to how he did with Katakuri,confidence definitely helps get the job done. It could possibly help Doffy beat Issho and more so with Lucci.

Yeah and in this case Doffy doesn't have the luxury of waiting around and training to beat Issho. Same as Luffy this is only playing out in the short case senario. Luffy, in this long term period of days trained and finely honed a single technique only focusing on that, went through a ridiculous amount of training dummies, had a dedicated teacher, and it still took awhile. It wasn't really confidence at that point but grit and determination.

When I said Admrial level fighters, I was mostly referring to the Sweet commanders that he had to fight during Whole cake island arc(and briefly Issho before said arc). Luffy fought them,got beat up by them,and still managed to win(or survive) the encounters despite being weaker.

Ah I see. Lets look at how he beat them.

Cracker- He had help from Nami and likely wouldn't have won without her. This is still a Luffy who used attacks that originally beat or at least did significant damage to Doffy. Even so, it didn't even face this guy nor the following opponents.

Katakuri- Luffy grew much stronger in this fight, contantly learning how to dodge an opponent who could see his next move. Plus, he learned Future Sight, something he didn't have in the Doffy fight which is what really led him to victory.

And to address your Issho point... If Issho actually tried Luffy would've been absolutely slaughtered even with G4 I thought everyone knew that already.

I don’t doubt that Issho could have beat him since he was and still is stronger than Mingo. I’m not saying that made Doffy Admiral level either, just pointing out what canon told us and showed us. Which is that Dof was (and still technically is) a dangerous individual that an Admiral level fighter has a higher chance of beating(but still needs to be careful of).

Ok so then what in your opinion shows that he was an Admiral level fighter?

Why is me admitting that a problem or being considered ?

Well I thought you were refusing to admit that earlier but apparently not my bad.

Except we know that the Kong gun alone wasn’t the only factor that contributed to why Doffy lost to it. Luffy confirmed that Mingo was already on his last leg and then tricked Doffy to follow him high up in the air an punched him soo hard dude got sent crashing down from a great height at a crazy speed into the not so soft pavement.

Both were on their last legs. It was one of those moments where the MC pulls a big brain move I realize that. But once again, this attack, even when Luffy had Future sight, wasn't used because he knew Katakuri would be able to handle it. That's why he went with Snakeman instead, because King Kong Gun wouldn't have been enough.

I was saying that I disagree and that by the end of the fight it became more so apparent. I’ll start being more definitive from now on.

Ok so in that case, how did Doffy take more damage than Luffy?

Another misunderstanding here(was typing to fast there),was trying to say only Yonko level Luffy could have beaten Kizaru with a couple of blows(and since Lucci would have still been considered weaker than Kizaru,that Yonko level Luffy would have blitzed Lucci like how Kaido did to him)But since he’s not Yonko level, he failed to thoroughly beat Kizaru(didn’t even make him lose consciousness once)and ended up beating Lucci in a mid diff fight instead of a low diff one(which I’m sure would happen to Doff as well).

Luffy evidently wasn't going all out against Kizaru, heck he didn't even use his strongest attack (Bajrang Gun). Plus, we see Luffy go into that old grandpa dried out husk thing in his fight against Lucci and Kaido. Whenever he exits the form that seems to be the result. However, he can still pull himself out of that state if he really needs to as seen in the Kaido fight, it just requires more energy.

Sorry but it doesn’t. Kaido had taken waaay to many blows from multiple people,crazy thing he’s partly responsible for letting good chunk of it happen himself when he let everyone try out their attacks on him to test their strength and then later during his third fight with Luffy. Dude got drunk and slick let some more attacks hit him due to his drunken antics.

Well Luffy certainly took more damage leading up the final fight. Kaido is also seen taking "damage" when it doesn't hurt him much (Luffy's initial onslaught of attacks were all far weaker than his King Kong gun. Kaido was taken aback by all of them yet evidently wasn't remotely injured). He was clearly holding back in his fight with both Yamato and Akazaya 9 and really just went full out against Luffy at the end with that huge Flame Bagua or where he almost killed him with the Thunder Bagua. Getting drunk means he was having fun. If you're having fun you're not taking the fight all that seriously, not to mention even while drunk he still dealt good damage to Luffy

You’re last post made it seem like Lucci fought Luffy and Zoro on the same day.

Welp that's not what I meant glad we cleared up the misunderstanding.

Are talking about the moment when their first fight ended in a stalemate? Because both him and Luffy were lying on the ground wiped out ish. No one can claim victory from that.

When Luffy fought him, he was owning him the entire fight. Again, Luffy still had energy, and can pull himself out of that old grandpa state if he needs to. Heck, he did so in the Kaido fight even after training and fighting (almost) nonstop for days.

Either by knocking him out with a strong attack (or combination of attacks) or try killing him by skewering him.

And I'm saying that that wouldn't happen since the attacks Lucci got hit with were on an entirely different level then the ones Doffy got hit with, yet he still lost.

Fair enough,since Lucci was able to recover quickly. When you said “Besides Lucci took other attacks other than Dawn rocket before that and was ok. Doffys attacks aren't on that level, so yeah” I miss read what you were saying when I said “Why wouldn’t he be able to”so you can ignore that part(my bad).

I think it’ll be a great fight between them,but I think Mingo DF powers will give him the slight edge do to it’s versatility. He can create string clones that can give him the numbers advantage and they’ve shown to be nearly as strong as him and his Awakening powers will give him terrain advantage.

True, but his strength at least would give him a chance. With Luffy,great confidence is always involved,obviously great strength and skill is needed as well. Just trying to say that a character mental and emotional state can help in battle as well.

Despite having Nami help,his strength was still significant enough to fight Cracker and G4 allowed him to overpower an break crackers biscuit soldier before she got involved.

His actual strength didn’t really go anywhere while up against(or even before fighting)Katakuri. All he did was learn FS,sharpen his fighting skills a bit and used a new version of G4. Katakuri pretty much let him win. Whole cake island arc practically did nothing for Luffy strength except helped him advance one of his Haki abilities.

I don’t know about slaughter, but Issho definitely would have been a hard fight for Luffy just like the sweet commanders were.

Law and Kuzan both noted that Doflamingo strength was great enough for an Admiral needing to get involve to stop him. They weren’t saying he was on an Admiral level or above(neither am I). Just that it was efficient enough to give an Admiral trouble. We’ve seen throughout the series that a character one level below another can still fight and potentially win.

You’re good man. Yeah I was never trying to say that Luffy didn’t fight people stronger than Mingo. Just that his strength didn’t skyrocket up (not yet at least) to the point that someone of Mingo level could never compete at all.

Different circumstances require different approaches. Same with different foes, the Kong gun was enough because Doff was already weak and Luffy and him were more or less(strength wise,not damage wise)on the same playing field. Katakuri was stronger,faster,and a better fighter with FS who would have saw Luffy coming a mile away and quickly stopped the attack or easily dodged it while counterattacking with a move that would have most likely assured his victory over luffy. It’s less about whether it would actually do damage and more of would he even be able to land the hit.

He received a gamma knife attack from Law that destroyed his internal organs(then received a counter shock right after). Despite using his DF powers to help mitigate the damage to his organs, he was still comfirmed to have been significantly weakened by Law by Luffy himself. Luffy G4 did further damage sending him flying and crashing through a building(and later came the Kong Gun).

Luffy was definitely going all out. He was in his G5 form(this form represents his peak by his own words) and was panting practically out of breath(his strongest attack wouldn’t connect in their fight). Yeah, but the finished his fight with Lucci before then(and hardly got winded fighting Lucci) and with Kaido that was a whole other thing but similar to Kizaru he made G5 Luffy work really hard.

Luffy definitely took some noteworthy damage. But compared to Kaido it just doesn’t even out. Kaido own strength combined with his DF powers just helped him last longer is all(similar to WB case). I definitely agree on him holding back against Akazaya 9,but with Yamato I disagree. He was using his advanced haki and tried to speed blitz Yamato with a knock out blow(plus he confirmed he was trying to kill his kid). I dont think him getting drunk weakened his overall strength,just at times it made him reckless. His drunken beggar form literally had him pleading for Luffy to stop hitting him(while in the middle of getting hit) when he should have stayed focus on dodging and defending.

Yup,glad we got that cleared.

Nah,Luffy and Kizaru were neck and neck in this fight overall. Even when they got over on one another at times, they ended up balancing the fight out still. While Luffy can do that,it’s ill advised if he doesn’t have any food to help. Otherwise he’ll start cutting his life span or just straight up die.

I’m saying it would happen. As the strength difference between Luffy and Lucci just made it easier for Luffy to do it. Mingo and Lucci would be more even,causing the fight to be longer and harder for either to finish the other.

@Sean 175

I think it’ll be a great fight between them,but I think Mingo DF powers will give him the slight edge do to it’s versatility. He can create string clones that can give him the numbers advantage and they’ve shown to be nearly as strong as him and his Awakening powers will give him terrain advantage.

His string clone was taken out by a Red Hawk meanwhile his real body took Gear 4 to beat. No i's not as strong or even near as strong. Plus, while DF Awakening gives him terrain advantage, Lucci has raw power advantage, which in Luffy's fight with him proved that raw power was enough to overcome. Lucci's power is far greater than a Gear 4 Luffy so it should easily close the gap here.

True, but his strength at least would give him a chance. With Luffy,great confidence is always involved,obviously great strength and skill is needed as well. Just trying to say that a character mental and emotional state can help in battle as well.

We're beating a dead horse at this point. To me, confidence doesn't help and won't help much unless they are around equal in strength. We know for a fact Issho is stronger than Doffy so I doubt the confidence shows anything more than ignorance.

Despite having Nami help,his strength was still significant enough to fight Cracker and G4 allowed him to overpower an break crackers biscuit soldier before she got involved.

Beating the cracker biscuits doesn't mean he won lol. That's like saying that if you deflect one of Luffy's attacks you scale at his level. Without Nami, Luffy would've lost and that was extremely clear in the fight.

His actual strength didn’t really go anywhere while up against(or even before fighting)Katakuri. All he did was learn FS,sharpen his fighting skills a bit and used a new version of G4. Katakuri pretty much let him win. Whole cake island arc practically did nothing for Luffy strength except helped him advance one of his Haki abilities.

You're seriously downplaying FS here. That one ability alone makes him scale above Cracker who he couldn't beat before and squeak out a win against Katakuri who was vastly stronger than him in the beginning.

I don’t know about slaughter, but Issho definitely would have been a hard fight for Luffy just like the sweet commanders were.

I mean, pre WCI arc Luffy wasn't on the sweet commanders level yet, not even close and they were whooping him. Issho scales above Cracker so yeah he'd probably kill him right away without hesitating unlike Cracker who was just playing with him the whole time.

Law and Kuzan both noted that Doflamingo strength was great enough for an Admiral needing to get involve to stop him. They weren’t saying he was on an Admiral level or above(neither am I). Just that it was efficient enough to give an Admiral trouble. We’ve seen throughout the series that a character one level below another can still fight and potentially win.

Ok... So lemme get this straight. You think Doffy is not on Issho's level but could have time to grow in their fight and possibly surpass him am I right? In that case here's why I think that wouldn't happen...

In the fights that Luffy manages to overcome someone stronger than him (Cracker, Katakuri, Kaido), two out of those three he had help and all three times the opponent was playing with him the whole time. This gave him the opportunity to grow throughout the match

Issho is shown to be incredibly decisive and if he sets his mind to something, say killing Doffy, he won't hesitate and kill him. There's also the fact that Doffy won't have his henchmen to help him in a hypothetical 1v1.

Different circumstances require different approaches. Same with different foes, the Kong gun was enough because Doff was already weak and Luffy and him were more or less(strength wise,not damage wise)on the same playing field. Katakuri was stronger,faster,and a better fighter with FS who would have saw Luffy coming a mile away and quickly stopped the attack or easily dodged it while counterattacking with a move that would have most likely assured his victory over luffy. It’s less about whether it would actually do damage and more of would he even be able to land the hit.

Imo King Cobra is more concentrated in terms of power since it focuses all its power on a smaller point. King Kong Gun is just super big and easier to land as it's harder to escape.

He received a gamma knife attack from Law that destroyed his internal organs(then received a counter shock right after). Despite using his DF powers to help mitigate the damage to his organs, he was still comfirmed to have been significantly weakened by Law by Luffy himself. Luffy G4 did further damage sending him flying and crashing through a building(and later came the Kong Gun).

Luffy also took significant damage from Bellamy and Doffy's clone. Luffy was also getting slammed around repeatedly and before the final confrontation with KKG had barely recovered his use of haki. So both were significantly weakened. The point is, Doffy didn't take all that more damage than Luffy. (I think i'm not even sure what im trying to prove at this point this things gone on so ridiculously long lol)

Luffy was definitely going all out. He was in his G5 form(this form represents his peak by his own words) and was panting practically out of breath(his strongest attack wouldn’t connect in their fight). Yeah, but the finished his fight with Lucci before then(and hardly got winded fighting Lucci)

He was in the exact same state (old shriveled looking thing) after fighting Lucci. Does that mean he was also going all out against Lucci? Lucci is confirmed to not be Admiral level, so how would Luffy be going all out against two people who are completely different levels and beat them in the same amount of time. Also, If Doffy was beat in Gear 4 even when he was tired, Kaido who took more damage also lost would never lose to a Gear 4 punch. Plus, he was simply keeping up with Gear 4 and not one shotting him as other characters that came after him have done, even while seriously injured.

and with Kaido that was a whole other thing but similar to Kizaru he made G5 Luffy work really hard.

To which Luffy repsonded by pulling himself out of the shriveled state. Something he never had to do against Kizaru.

Luffy definitely took some noteworthy damage. But compared to Kaido it just doesn’t even out. Kaido own strength combined with his DF powers just helped him last longer is all(similar to WB case). I definitely agree on him holding back against Akazaya 9,but with Yamato I disagree. He was using his advanced haki and tried to speed blitz Yamato with a knock out blow(plus he confirmed he was trying to kill his kid).

Trying to kill doesn't neccesarily mean he was going all out. If Kaido was truly going all out, but that makes her (or him or whatever) the same level as Gear 5 Luffy which makes no sense.

I dont think him getting drunk weakened his overall strength,just at times it made him reckless. His drunken beggar form literally had him pleading for Luffy to stop hitting him(while in the middle of getting hit) when he should have stayed focus on dodging and defending.

But he makes up for that recklessnes with movements and emotions that weren't possible when he was sober. So he's around the same level of power let's go with that.

I’m saying it would happen. As the strength difference between Luffy and Lucci just made it easier for Luffy to do it. Mingo and Lucci would be more even,causing the fight to be longer and harder for either to finish the other.

Ok let's just agree to disagree here. We both obviously are stuck in our ways and I don't have time to type out these long responses anymore lol. I'm too busy anyway, this was really entertaining for me. thanks and have a great week. Sorry for accusing you of not watching the show earlier. I see we've both watched the show and drawn our own conclusions

@InevitaPICKLE

It was shown being able to give Luffy and Law a challenge. Plus, when Mingo himself got involved it became even more dangerous. Doflamingo could just thicken his strings and combine it with Haki to better protect himself while easily transitioning to offense. Besides a weakened Dof took a couple of blows from G4 and still fought.

Ok,we can drop this part then.

True, but it does mean he has enough strength to possibly win. Thankfully that wasn’t one of those moments. With or without Nami,it showed Luffy had enough strength to help get the W.

FS just allows the user to see into the future,wether they have the ability or not to use it to their advantage is a different story. That one ability would just scale him in haki proficiency,Cracker would have still been stronger just like Katakuri was. So I’m not downplaying it.

DF power wise Sweet commanders can’t compare to Issho(so he has then beat there),everything else is debatable. Besides Issho himself noted Luffy was strong. Cracker was hardly playing,Luffy strength was just enough to give him a fighting chance.

You’re partly correct,what I’ve been trying to tell you is that Mingo strength is enough if he knows how to use it to help capitalize on either his enemies weaknesses or using their own strengths in an creative way that could turn their opponents strengths against them. Even if his strength doesn’t grow to surpass or even rise up to equal Issho. Luffy beat Cracker by firing dude right into his own hardened Biscuits(amongst other things) without his own strength surpassing or equaling Crackers.

Fair enough.

Still disagree with this one as well.

It’s a default form he takes after G5 deactivates(similar to G4). Technically yes,the problem is that Lucci couldn’t handle all of Luffy seriousness for long so it ended with Luffy only getting semi serious(so Luffy just deactivated the transformation early)He never beat Kizaru and Kizaru made Luffy go all the way fully out to the point Luffy actually reached his G5 time limit.

Again,that would have been an ill advised thing for him to do. Besides the circumstances were different,Kizaru was at least in a temporary state Luffy could relax for a bit(plus,Sanji and Franky were there to help). Kaido just needed to take a knee for a bit then get up to finish Luffy(no one was really there to help).

Fair enough. Yamato is a very strong character with an awakened mythical DF powers and advanced haki. Makes sense to me since all those things allowed Yam to fight against Kaido by themselves similar to Luffy.

Yeah, I’m just saying Kaido took blows he shouldn’t have took.

Agreed,appreciate the debat as well! May you have a great week as well and you’re welcome😁. No problem, glad you able to recognize me as a true fan! Till next debate!