'This alone puts at least one of the child Seraphim with the same durability as King as that's about as direct of a line as you can draw between two points. Assuming then that this draws across the speed as well whereas Zoro landed an attack on Flames Off King with difficulty Sanji without his Germa Genes using just the Disable Jambe did the same thing to S-Shark when his Flames were Off and with far more ease. Remember that from there he can stack his Germa Genes which made him go from perceptible to Queen to invisible, then he can also add the Diable Jambe to speed up further and of course his ace in the hole the Ifrit Jambe which is a further speed boost.'

Except S shark does not equal to King as full grown lunarian > child Seraphim > Prototype Seraphim which is what S shark was stated to be so using S shark as a comparison to King does not work. Again in speed King > S shark they have similar blood but that does not mean their 100% equals in stats. King shows better speed then S shark. Again yes Sanji is undoubtedly faster then Zoro but your over exaggerating the speed gap. Zoro has the reaction time to react and defend himself this is not a flash vs aquaman speed difference.

'I also want to clarify that I don't think Sanji could beat a Seraphim with their flames on permanently or outpower Zoro with his max AP. What I am saying is that he can outdo the damage output of Kings explosion which Zoro said would have killed him if he didn't react by coating all of his body in Armament Haki. So given Sanji can hit harder than that explosion and Zoro can't react to defend himself then the result would be a Sanji victory'

Except that feats > statements Zoro said that explosion could of killed but before we saw Zoro survived standing in front of Kaido and Big moms combined forces and just one of those guys is > King. And even saying Law got him out fast he was still hit by the attack and still could push to his limits and use 9 sword style and conquerors in that condition and still living after being thunder bagua'd by hybrid Kaido. Again Zoro CAN react as he's reacted to characters faster then he himself is due to his reaction time like with awakened Lucci. Zoro has the reaction time to react and he's shown the endurance to push all out after being hit by Kaidos attack. So no due to both Zoro and Sanji having the ap to surpass each others durability but Zoro having the edge in ap and with a 2 to 1 haki advantage and having the edge in endurance which is the stat that matters most in this type of battle the result is Zoro winning

I'm not gonna type whole paragraphs again since it would just be TYL said but I do wanna say this the attack that "damaged" S shark just makes him look as "damaged" as S-hawk or S-bear who were patting off the damage they took of course they reacted to it just like S-shark but they seem fine right after it.

@Tylocene so if I've understood you right, you're saying S-Shark can't be as durable as King because he's a child. Even though Zoro, without ACoC hit both King and S-Hawk, another child Seraphim, with what he called one of his strongest attacks to the exact same result of 0 visable damage. Which, would show that both took no damage. Which means both their durabilities with their flames on are enough to take that attack, one of Zoro's strongest without Enma activated, and have no visible damage. Then you see Sanji kick one and leave visible damage, not a whole lot, but still more than Zoro. And with all of this information what you come away with is that King has to be more durable because ones a kid and thats why Sanji is weaker?

To your second point, I agree Zoro can tank an Emperor's attack, when he is on guard. But that's not what I'm arguing, I'm not arguing that Zoro can't block Sanji's attacks if he could react Im arguing that if he can't which I believe I've provided a lot of evidence for the idea that he can't, then he wouldn't be able to survive it when he's not guarding. I also wanna bring up the idea that people don't seem to bring up a lot, which is that people that are weaker than people like Kaido and Big Mom might still have advantages in certain stats. Like Zoro on the rooftop with the on guard durability to tank attacks like Hakai. And Sanji through all facts shown would be faster than Kaido, would he win? God no, Kaido would outlast him and eventually catch him and at that point it's over. But the reason Zoro can't do that is because he can't take hits off guard and that Enma kills him after minutes of use.

@The person with a username I don't disagree, Sanji didn't do a lot of damage but what he did do was leave a visible wound. Did it deal any heavy damage? No, but one of Zoro's strongest attack without Enma didn't leave that kind of damage. So all I'm trying to say with that is that therefore that attack from Sanji has a higher AP than that attack from Zoro. This isn't a lot but it's slightly more than Zoro's which means it's comparable to Zoro's. And if it is at just Diable Jambe his powered up form would have to do more damage than that explosion

@Marcus Mattson

This strike from nami seemed to do more damage to S-shark then sanji kick and zoro's lion song to S-hawk and we all agree nami has ap that is not comparable to either of the two so all the marks are most likely just from the lightning burning his clothes and skin, just like Sanji kick that's covered in flames. So maybe instead of Sanji doing more damage then Zoro his fire kick just left more marks then a piece of a sharp metal.

I don't disagree, Nami did the most raw damage. And to be fair to her she's using an Emperor's Soul to do it, and lightning which is a form of durability negation. This isn't some big gatcha Nami's always been a Glass Canon with raw power above her durability and speed. And with Zeus that only grew

Also not to be that guy but there's still lightning on his body and smoke coming from his mouth. Those are signs of damage not just the type of thing that bounced off them

No that’s completely false. S shark is not comparable to adult lunarian or Shawk due to being a prototype. That just means Shawk a more complete Seraphim is more durable then Sshark which was stated to be a prototype. But fine let’s go by the reasoning S shark = S hawk = King in durability.

So you use this image to say Sanji without haki damaged S shark right?

But why does this mean Sanji surpassed flame on seraphims durability are you basing of the look of s sharks face? Because that’s not good proof. Because this is s sharks look after Zues hit him

Same type of expression like the upper image with white eyes and marks. So either damaging S shark is easier to do then the other seraphims or king as s shark is a prototype or S shark can be stunned or pushed back with flame on mode but not entirely damaged. Basically like how act 1 Luffy was knocking around Kaido

'I agree Zoro can tank an Emperor's attack, when he is on guard. But that's not what I'm arguing, I'm not arguing that Zoro can't block Sanji's attacks if he could react Im arguing that if he can't which I believe I've provided a lot of evidence for the idea that he can't, then he wouldn't be able to survive it when he's not guarding. I also wanna bring up the idea that people don't seem to bring up a lot, which is that people that are weaker than people like Kaido and Big Mom might still have advantages in certain stats. Like Zoro on the rooftop with the on guard durability to tank attacks like Hakai. And Sanji through all facts shown would be faster than Kaido, would he win? God no, Kaido would outlast him and eventually catch him and at that point it's over. But the reason Zoro can't do that is because he can't take hits off guard and that Enma kills him after minutes of use.'

Again this point is not good as well it again heavily relies on the assumption Zoro needs to be on guard or that Sanjis speed is a blitz above Zoros when it’s not. Zoro could block Sanjis attack again while Sanji does take the speed advantage Zoro has reacted to characters faster then himself before like against awakened Lucci who was at time able to react to Luffys attacks. Zoros reaction speed gives him the ability to defend himself. Also Zoros endurance =/= his endurance is the same on or off guarded. Again when I mean endurance I don’t mean him blocking the attack I’m talking about the damage he received from a combined Yonko attack fused with their haki and still being able to use AcoA and his strongest attack while enma is taking his haki and stamina and after collapsing surviving a thunder bagua from hybrid Kaido. This shows Zoro has the endurance to out last Sanji in their battle. You did not prove at all that Zoro can’t react to sanji. You made a lot of assumptions that don’t really prove anything like assuming Sanji sensing invincible Queen had anything to do with a character's combat speed when that is something observation haki takes care of. Seriously tho sensing an invisible character has nothing to do do with your own speed now being able to see someone that's moving so fast they become invisible does have to do with reaction speed but with Queen he had a camouflage mode and went invisible. So sensing him does not mean Sanjis combat speed is a blitz above Kings it means Sanji has much better observation then King. And the point with comparing seraphims speed to Kings is terrible as Seraphims are NOT as fast as King feat wise. Easy way to prove so is King in speed mode was faster then Zoro in a pure 1v1 but against S hawk Zoro could fight him while juggling/keeping Kaku and Lucci safe showing that king is faster then Seraphims. On or off guard Zoros endurance remains the same. Except Zoro did not have the durability to tank hakai your confusing defense durability and endurance all in one when it’s not the same. Zoro having 30 bones broken shows that he did not tank the attack but endured it. Sanji is in NO WAY faster then Kaido at all literally no facts can prove that. Sanji = gets blighted by on guard Nusjuro while Luffy out maneuvers any of the gorosei even when outnumbered. G5 >>>> Sanji in speed and Kaido while with extreme exhaustion and damage from previous battles was outmaneuvering and hitting G5 Luffys plenty of times

In speed Hybrid Kaido >>>>>>>>>>> Current Sanji. Kaido would one tap and blitz ANY of the straw hats minus G5 Luffy. Hybrid Kaido is Faster + Future sight. Enma does not kill Zoro post onigashima ad not as bad as on the rooftop the stuff involving Zoro almost dying was not mainly from enma but from Kaidos attacks and Big moms and then piled with Kings as well as the medicines affects. Again Sanji does not blitz Zoro and Zoros endurance as well as any characters is the same on or off guarded.

And on the last point. The problem is your confusing push back for damage or permanent damage. Sanji and Zues did knock and throw around S shark and mangled his face up good which shows they overpowered him but With Lunarians and seraphims this can happen attacks can get them sent flying or knocked back but it does not mean they received permanent damage in invincible flame on mode again refering to Luffy vs Kaido act 1 where Luffy gave Kaido the same face but did not do permanent damage

The attack zues used did not work again you can push back a character or knock them on the ground but that does not mean their durability has been broken. Example looking at act 1 Luffy he’s knocking around dragon kaido and gives Kaido the white eyes but it’s canonically stated that Kaido received no damage. You can knock a character down or push them back or in OP case hit them giving them white eyes and marks but that does not mean you broke through their durability. Lighting coming of the body is not really a sign of damage as again we see S shark can still fight perfectly fine as if nothing happened. Sanji easily overpowered S shark and sent him flying with a nameless kick but that does not mean Sanji can just surpass Kings flame on defense mode. But ok S hark was down and looked worse then Kaido did in act 1 so I'm most likely wrong about the S shark point so Sanji can damage flame on S shark with his attacks and ap and Sanjis ifrit jambe ap > Zoros ap without using enma/haki but still Zoro using enma or AcoA puts Zoros Ap > Sanjis ap and Zoro >= Sanji going back to the middle part of my argument. And S shark is not equal to Shawk. Zoro and Sanjis AP are close relative even but with AcoA onto Zoros ap Zoro takes the Ap advantage.

Zoro extreme diff.

Also Zues being a small part of an emperors soul is not really proof as Zues does not share anything close to BM ap or attacks. in terms of Ap Zoro > Sanji >>>>>> Zues. AcoA still changes things.

Zeus*

@Tylocene it might also be worth mentioning that the smoke coming from S-Sharks mouth and the fact Zeus passed through him could imply it delt more internal damage and as lightning tends to do stuns more. But there is still no doubt that the most effective attack that's hit a Flames on Seriph without relying on SeaStone is Zeus. I'd argue that's cause it's an Emperor's attack with internal damaging properties so severe it passed through S-Shark and naturally stuns but still true nonetheless

Y'all are still going on about this?