Do not add to it unless it really needs to be reopened. Consider creating a brand new forum instead.
I've been meaning to open this forum for some time, but I'd like to address a couple things that I think need to be changed in the chat:
1) Using chat bans as a joke. This should never happen. It makes this page utterly useless. The log should exist to check if a user has been banned before for similar crimes and needs a longer ban, it's useless if a user has been banned 50 times in the last month for less than a minute. And it's totally unnecessary since a kick accomplishes the same purpose as a 3-second ban. To me, it's an abuse of Chat Moderator privileges.
2) Known sockpuppets should be infinitely banned from both chat and the wiki. It's a violation of Wikia's Terms of Use to "Attempt to impersonate another user or person" and we must adhere to Wikia's ToU. This should only be for users that can be proven to be Socks of course, we shouldn't just go around handing out perma-bans to people we think are socks. We need to do something about the creation of all these useless accounts. It's been running rampant lately, and if infinitely banning the socks isn't enough, we should also take action against the creators of the socks. And I haven't found any examples of these not being infinitely banned, but socks who exist to make fun of our own users such as "1st Supernova" or "Betsy17" should automatically be banned for "attempting to impersonate another user".
I know there's a knee-jerk reaction against any attempts to add rules to the chat, but I think these two are just obvious rules that we should follow and won't affect the chat too much. JustSomeDude... Talk | 16:08, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
Discussion
*Siiiiiiiiiiiigh* Part one doesn't bother me, it's just a mere joke, nothing wrong with that. Part two is a fact, we already do ban socks permanently from chat and if a mod doesn't, there are cases when a user with no rights put the ban template on a sock's page. See yata's chat ban log for instance.
Both of the socks mentioned are mine btw, pretty sure they are banned though and I didn't even make the second one on this wiki, but on berserk wiki. :D Staw-Hat Luffy Talk 16:18, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
Joke bans are a bit of an issue, but I try not to do it that often. I'm still new to this mod business.
Socks - well, usually they're used for a one time joke, but I can think of an instance where they're useful. User:Roranoa Zoro II was global disabled (wrongly) because Roa complained to staff, and since Roa II hadn't done anything to actually deserve the block - he'd been a good editor for a few months before this happened - he made another account and asked a staff to rename it. That isn't impersonation. It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 17:39, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
About joke bans, I have no problem, in fact I enjoy them sometimes. I do believe that they are not bad-willed and if the user that gets kicked complains then it will imidiately stop.
As for the global ban of socks, I don't think that users edit with their socks ever. If you really want to fight sock creation, then make a rule that links a socks ban with their creator. For example, he who creates a sock gets banned from chat for X days.Vaztalk 18:01,2/5/2014
I'm not saying Roa II is a sock. That's the exact situation where someone isn't known to be a sock. As far as I know, Roa II never existed to make fun of "Roa 1" or impersonate him. So that's the kind of situation we should avoid. But when know a user like this is a sock, we should ban them.
And can someone please address why it's ok to let joke bans ruin the chat ban log? They're especially needless since kicks exist and still allow for the same joke. JustSomeDude... Talk | 19:45, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
Because they are funny. And I have the record. :D Staw-Hat Luffy Talk 19:56, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
I don't understand why you are so concerned about users chat logs JSD. A joke ban is a joke ban, nothing wrong with a joke between users at times. When it stops becoming a joke and more of an attack against a user, should be the main issue to be looked for. Staw you aren't helping the issue at hand, save the jokes for another time. This forum seems pretty pointless, you are basically challenging the wiki's chat moderators ability. All mods have are good at doing what do, despite certain users disagreeing because of something so minor.Besty17Talk 20:55, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
I think us chat moderators are perfectly capable of telling the differences between a joke ban and a serious ban. But if users being banned as a joke feel offended, I'll be more than happy enough to stop with the joke bans.
As for known sockpuppets, I always ban sockpuppets from the chat. I don't know about other chat moderators, do some of the chat moderators not really ban sockpuppets? If so, I wasn't aware of it.... Jademing Talk 22:53, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
I gotta agree with JSD on this one.--Roa[T]{MH,R!,-11:13,2/6/2014-}
^ Says the person who reported somebody for "impersonation" for no reason. SeaTerror (talk) 16:24, February 6, 2014 (UTC)
It's impersonation from the wikia's point of view.First,he'd have been prompted that another similar username exists while signing up.Second,I've told him a lot of times to change the username(with all the explanation that can be given).--Roa[T]{MH,R!,-16:29,2/6/2014-}
- Uh, no, in this rare case, it's not impersonation. He didn't make the account in order to make fun of you, he didn't make the account in order to troll the chat, and he didn't make the account to make any trouble. He just happened to have no imagination at all. Therefore, it was an unjust ban. Jademing Talk 17:14, February 6, 2014 (UTC)
I'd love more input on the joke bans matter. At the very least, I want to make sure chat mods never do it to new users who might not get the joke and never come back. We don't need to do that to alienate people. JustSomeDude... Talk | 22:21, February 6, 2014 (UTC)
@Jade,intentional or not,a TOU violation is a TOU violation;Remember that his account got suspended and he was given a chance to make a new account,if it was intentional impersonation it'd have been very different.--Roa[T]{MH,R!,-09:36,2/7/2014-}
JSD, we never do it to new users, only to the regulars and out of them, a few specific ones that we know don't mind at all, like myself. Staw-Hat Luffy Talk 11:59, February 7, 2014 (UTC)
JSD I can definitely see the good you are trying to do with this forum but it's not that big of a deal. With the joke chat bans I guess Nova and Jade could cool it a little, even if it is only in good fun (I'm not pointing fingers with out proof jade, it's right there in the chat ban log so don't get pissy at me. :P) In terms of socks, if they are used once and are for comedic reasons I have no problem with them, if they annoy or upset people they will be removed pretty quickly. And the only current sock that I am aware of sticking around and for good reason, has already been explained by others. SHB 14:57, February 7, 2014 (UTC)
I have an idea that could potentially diminish the number of socks on the chat. We could implement a policy where in which users have to be a member of the wiki for at least 1 month before being allowed to use the chat. We could also have a policy similar to the one that the boneheads at Bleach Wiki have, where each user has to make 10 edits a month to be able to use the chat. That shouldn't be a problem because most existing users have already made hundreds even thousands of edits. Feel free to criticize now ^_^ Supernova X-Drake aka Roranoa Zoro II (talk) 20:40, February 7, 2014 (UTC)
Btw my Indian sock, stop making such ludicrous excuses for yourself. We know the truth and you're not going to reach Nirvana at this rate >__> Supernova X-Drake aka Roranoa Zoro II (talk) 20:42, February 7, 2014 (UTC)
No. That is an awful idea. You should never need edits just to join the chat. A lot of new people join chat just to ask questions in chat too. Or they ask for help like somebody yesterday who didn't know how to properly code templates like we have. SeaTerror (talk) 20:46, February 7, 2014 (UTC)
A chat policy wouldn't work, plus we don't want to restrict people from accessing the chat new or old. Even at times like right now currently were there is no mod around to montior the chat, the system of a policy wouldn't work even if we consider it.Besty17Talk 20:47, February 7, 2014 (UTC)
Maybe that's why Bleach Wikia is dead ._. Supernova X-Drake aka Roranoa Zoro II (talk) 20:50, February 7, 2014 (UTC)
On request I have come to comment on this forum. \( ._.)/
Throughout my time as a moderator I've done my best to avoid joke bans on new or old users. Sure, a one-off ban doesn't hurt anybody and I've been on the receiving end of these without being bothered, but there have been many times when my browser has just been flooded with "____ has been banned/unbanned by ____". It does get to the point where the sheer magnitude of joke bans becomes obscene. I do agree with JSD - it's hard to see what users have caused trouble before in the ban log when there is two straight pages of Staw being banned for mere seconds.
As for the socks... I get that it's against Wikia policy but I still go for the 'no harm, no foul' approach. Unless somebody is genuinely trying to impersonate another user, get around a ban or otherwise cause trouble I'll usually leave them alone. I get that some of us just have back-up accounts and it'd be a little extreme if we banned every single one of those as well. Kuro Ashi 06:39, February 8, 2014 (UTC)
Well, it looks like this was unresolved. Time to close?
It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 21:59, March 4, 2014 (UTC)
The forum isn't uneeded, time to close it.Besty17Talk 23:26, March 4, 2014 (UTC)
Discussion Two
|
Hey! Let's talk this out!
This is an active forum. Please participate if you wish to make changes to the subject at hand. Remember to remain calm and civil throughout the discussion! |
So I've been thinking about this forum recently since the addition of new mods recently, and after reviewing this forum, I see a 4-4 conflict in terms of the anit-joke ban rule, and I don't know why this was closed without a clear majority. I'll be sure to make sure that portion goes to poll this time.
But also with the recent Galaxy9000 conflict, I think the chat needs a few more changes. He has been coming into chat with socks, and we need to have policies that allow us to deal with that, but in ways that don't negatively impact the experience for new users too much.
First off, some users decided to take advantage of the chaos Gal created and make some joke sockpuppets themselves, which is why I want to reiterate that not only should confirmed socks be infinitely banned, but shorter bans should be given to the users who create the socks. It's hard enough to find socks, and with Gal's IP changing all the time, we don't need MORE socks in the chat. We need to start a culture in chat to look down on socks.
Also, I forget where I proposed this before, but I think we need some rules against idling in chat, as many of Gal's socks have been idling in chat to spy on us. I think that if we give kicks to only new and unfamiliar users who don't talk in the chat for long periods of time (when the chat is active, obviously), after asking them to respond. So for example, a typical interaction will be a chat mod saying "New User 1, are you there? You need to talk, or I'll have to kick you" or something to that effect, and if they don't respond, they get kicked. Kicks are harmless, and as long as the chat mod says why they're doing it, the user shouldn't be alienated by it.
So I know there's always resistance to changes with chat rules, but really think the Galaxy conflict requires us to change the rules here. I ask people to consider this new problem when responding to this, since the chat (and the wiki) can really no longer be the same anymore. Thanks. JustSomeDude... Talk | 02:31, September 20, 2014 (UTC)
Yeh joke bans are bad, but it looks like they haven't been happening much lately, which is a good thing. Sock accounts should always get banned but the creator only deserves punishment when they are meant to harm the wiki, not have fun for a bit on chat in my opinion. I dissagree on the last part, especially now that the wiki hardly gets new users, we shouldn't scare them away by kicking them if they haven't done anything really wrong. If they are gal and do reveal themselves, then we ban. There is nothing to spy on, especially now that the whole issue has died down. Staw-Hat Luffy Talk 06:20, September 20, 2014 (UTC)
If I'm aware of the presence of a sockpuppet, I always make sure to ban them, though I'd like to see this to be an enforced rule by other mods, so I support officially outlawing sockpuppets.
However, I strongly disagree with you on kicking new users for being idle. It would easily allow mods to abuse their rights to kick new users, and most of the new users won't be able to prove that the kicks are unjustified. It also discourage new users from coming in the chat, and possibly from editing, and we should always encourage new users to be part of our community. Not to mention that being idle isn't a crime, and I really do not think that being idle is worth being kicked. Kicking people for being idle just sounds silly and even harmful to me. Jademing Talk 22:12, September 22, 2014 (UTC)
Kicking new users seems to be a tad bit overkill. Other than that, I'm onboard with the rest of these policy changes. The Will of Deez (talk) 16:09, September 23, 2014 (UTC)
We should have a link to the rules on chat imo<
I agree with Roa. This allows a new user in chat to be able to easily have access to the chat rules. Lelouch Di Britannia Talk Page 13:23, October 4, 2014 (UTC)
I disagree with kicking the new users. They're new users, so the chances of them being idle on chat is very high. I mean, there aren't many people who can immediately jive with everyone. Most of us talk/discuss/joke of something that many aren't familiar with. New users, usually, observe and read what everyone does, resulting on being idle. There are even new users that join chat and never talk, simply because they aren't familiar with the environment or there is no one to talk to. And hey, I've been in wikia for a year but I strongly feel offended when someone kicks me, what more about the new user/s?
Choko Message 13:29, 10/4/2014
I don't think we need to kick new users anymore, now that Gal's agreed to leave the wiki peacefully. So I think we can stop talking about that rule, since literally nobody supports it anymore.
Oh, and posting the rules in the chat is a great idea. Do you know how to do that, Roa?
But we do still need to talk about joke chat bans and repercussions against users who create socks. I've already said many times that joke bans are bad because they destroy the chat ban log. I think we do need to take action against sock creators though because it should not be ok to allow people to do that without punishment, as if they ever got into real trouble and got banned, they would already have socks to fall back on. We need to discourage the creation of socks, and giving a real punishment is the only way I know how to accomplish that. For the punishment, I think something like a 2 day chat/wiki (depending on if the sock was used in chat or the wiki) ban is decent and we really don't need to be hard-asses about it, just discourage people from doing it. JustSomeDude... Talk | 13:57, October 4, 2014 (UTC)
An admin can edit the chat welcome message here, JSD. We can add something like "Welcome to the $1 Chat! Please remember to follow our Chat Policies when you are here." Lelouch Di Britannia Talk Page 14:06, October 4, 2014 (UTC)
@JSD,what lel said our we can go with the chat toolbar i mentioned of which i started a forum<
Our chat rules are outdated. Nobody updated them after the forum we had. Like two years ago? Also people get kicked/banned for making socks which I have an issue for. It isn't an actual chat rule that you can't make a sock. The only time a sock should be banned is if it's confirmed to be a person getting around a ban or extreme trolling. There's nothing wrong with making a joke account. SeaTerror (talk) 17:17, October 4, 2014 (UTC)
I'll see if I can track down that forum we had before and update them then.
And ST, it is against Wikia's Terms of Use to create multiple accounts. It's covered by the "Attempt to impersonate another user or person" part. A sock is another user. JustSomeDude... Talk | 17:45, October 4, 2014 (UTC)
Actually it isn't since Wikia actually allows you to make multiple accounts on the same email address. SeaTerror (talk) 18:02, October 4, 2014 (UTC)
Multiple accounts are allowed on wikia as long as they aren't used to cause problems such as deceiving others, evading a block, vandalizing, harassing other users or creating drama. As long as you admit that the account is yours and not use it to harm the wiki, it's fine. Lelouch Di Britannia Talk Page 11:57, October 5, 2014 (UTC)
I actually have 2 sock accounts under the e-mail I am using, and sometimes bring them to chat, but not even once used them for vandalizing. The sock creation that leads on having bad effects on the wiki or towards other people depends on the creator, tbh.
And about joke chat bans.. well, I have mixed feelings with it. Whilst I understand your point, and the powers of chat moderators shouldn't be used on a whim for something as petty as a joke ban, but then again, like what others pointed out, a joke is a joke. /totallynothelpingatall
Choko Message 12:02, 10/5/2014
Added a link to the rules,clear your browser cache to see it:)<
- If no one has anything to add,shall i close this discussion?<