I would like to propose extending the ban on spoilers to unofficial chapter scanlations. This would mean that information from new chapters would not be allowed on the wiki until the official chapter release date (normal schedule: Sundays 20:00 UTC).
As you may know, the groups responsible for unofficial scanlations during the past few years have ended their work on One Piece. There are currently no properly organized attempts to translate One Piece scans into English. This is looking to result in a mess of botched translations with varying quality on a weekly basis, possibly retranslated from other scanlations in different languages. I think it is best to disavow these for the sake of maintaining a standard of accuracy on the wiki.
The official release is typically only about 2 days behind unofficial scans now. It won't be that difficult to make the switch and starting waiting a few days. Editors can use that time to prepare for the new content. We would need to devote effort to make this rule clear to the userbase at the beginning, but with the right precautions we can prevent most of the issues. Awaikage Talk 19:13, January 3, 2020 (UTC)
The translations of Chapter 967 made it pretty apparent that if we start putting information on the wiki right away based purely on scans we're bound to wind up with false information in a bunch of places. I don't think we need to consider it "spoilers", like if some piece of information is obvious regardless of the quality of the translation then I don't see any reason to not include it. But I think we should wait until there's reliable sources of information other than scanlations for most stuff. DewClamChum (talk) 19:24, January 3, 2020 (UTC)
I agree with the proposal. After seeing the huge amount of inconsistencies and literal mistranslations and liberties with the initial scans of Chapter 967, we can't be sure about every single piece of information until we can verify them with a "reliable" source.Aguacate (talk) 19:31, January 3, 2020 (UTC)
I agree, I think the time is ripe. If we get more translations that are the same quality as 967 then keeping spoilers off the wiki would probably be easier than fixing the misinformation from those translations lol. We should have the editors to be able to oversee the transition. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 19:37, January 3, 2020 (UTC)
I support this change. With how fast and accurate the official translations are, especially given our lack a quality fan translation, it is a no-brainer. If the issue is about keeping spoilers off of our wiki, we have administrators and content moderators for a reason. During the transition, we will just need to be on higher alert. 13:30, January 7, 2020 (UTC)
I think it should be noted that the TL team posted an apology and explained that they actually re-translated a Korean translation. So mistakes were bound to happen. I'm not sure if there's a TL team that has access to the raws at the moment, but if such a team exists, I think we could use their TL. I can always double check in case anything seems fishy. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:24, January 10, 2020 (UTC)
There's no sense in the wiki trying to curate inconsistent scanlation releases and clean up after them. The official release is consistent in both timing and quality. It's best to just get everything right the first time rather than fix things in the days following. The wiki has no need to rush out information from chapters that aren't even out in Japan yet. Awaikage Talk 10:19, January 11, 2020 (UTC)
I don't think that's ever going to happen. Even Oda doesn't always gets things right. And I mean, it's not like the fan TLs were always 100% correct in the past. If a reliable team shows up, I don't see any need to change the procedure. So far, this crappy TL has only happened once, after all. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:11, January 11, 2020 (UTC)
With the exception of using the official English naming, I see no major problem with this.
However, I doubt many casual users would follow this and not just simply edit pages based on scanlation. What you are basically suggesting, is classifying every edit until the official release the same way we classified APforums spoilers and I doubt it will hold before a new scanlation team would surface.
Other then protecting every page related with every thing in a new chapter, and contently undoing, which would result in a protraction, we can't really stop someone from editing if they have access to a scan, so maybe we should have what some other wikias do and add a chapter page with the date, name, and basic chapter notes that are not text related until the official release.Rhavkin (talk) 16:42, January 11, 2020 (UTC)
I wouldn't be opposed to having an article for the chapter itself up in advance, if the information on it was restricted as suggested. If the chapter article had a disclaimer about the new policy (similar to Template:Unreleased, but more noticeable) that could reduce problems in regards to casual users. Apart from that, I don't think protecting articles would actually be that difficult most of the time. It seems like new chapter information is mainly added by veteran users, so once they're well-informed, a mid-level protection (Block new and unregistered users) could suffice in most cases. It is also possible to block editing for unregistered users entirely during the wait periods, if necessary. Awaikage Talk 17:46, January 11, 2020 (UTC)
Is IP editing allowed here? Because I'd suggest turning it off as a means to prevent leaks getting added. And again: A new reliable team while rise sooner or later, so why's there a need to change procedure at all? Just because of one bad chapter? • Seelentau 愛 議 18:57, January 11, 2020 (UTC)
Yes, IP editing is normally allowed. That's was I was referring to with "It is also possible to block editing for unregistered users entirely during the wait periods".
There's several reasons for going with this change. The official release is now so close to the leaks, freely available and accurate that in my mind it just makes sense to stop relying on unofficial sources. The switch makes the routine consistent and the wiki more professional. The unreliability of scanlations is and has been an issue. There may be new teams, but quality may vary and then those team might randomly quit. Or they don't get the chapter out before others slap together a retranslation from whatever language. There's no guarantee of anything. Complete raws typically aren't available before official release either, so several times in the past we've had to wait in order to check something. It's not like the latest chapter is the only one that had issues, it was just the most noticeable instance in recent times so it made people think about this.
By the way, it seems like the official release is getting moved to an even earlier time. The schedule suggests the chapters will come out 5 hours earlier going forward. Awaikage Talk 16:40, January 12, 2020 (UTC)
Wait, I'm confused. You just said that "it just makes sense to stop relying on unofficial sources". So we only go by what VIZ says, right? Stuff like "Beast Pirates" comes from an unofficial and thus, according to you, unreliable source, as far as I know. So by your own rule change, we would cease to use this name and switch over to the official VIZ translation. Wasn't that the whole point of this? Or is it pick-and-choose? Because right now, what you're basically saying is "fan-TLs are unreliable so we won't use them and instead use VIZ, except for some cases like 'Beast Pirates' where we still use those unreliable fan-TLs". Arbitrary rules like that open a whole can of worms. I mean, who gets to decide if a fan-TL is reliable or not? And on what grounds?
And you also said complete raws aren't available before official release, but that doesn't apply to everyone. If someone had access to the raws, would they be exempt from the rule? Or would that not be allowed, simply because others don't have access? How many people would have to have access to allow raw information to be added?
I don't know, you posted a new ruleset already, but this whole thing doesn't really seem that fleshed out to me. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:07, January 12, 2020 (UTC)
Seel, as I said yesterday, the OR naming is the exception since they use literal translations. The wiki has several Japanese speaking user that are usually more reliable then viz. Let's agree to cross that bridge when we get there. Rhavkin (talk) 20:20, January 12, 2020 (UTC)
That doesn't make any sense. The new rule is to be set in place because of the unreliability of the fan-TLs. And now you're saying that we have fan-TLs that are more reliable than VIZ? That would make the new rule obsolete, wouldn't it? • Seelentau 愛 議 20:25, January 12, 2020 (UTC)
The intention is not to "only go by what VIZ says". Their translations can still be questioned if need be. Name spellings/terminology in particular are a different matter entirely, which is not a matter of "reliability" of translation per se. What is the subject of discussion here is the period of time where only unofficial scanlations are available. When the chapter is not officially released. When I say "stop relying on unofficial sources", I mean that we won't be reliant on whatever the state of scanlations may be when we start adding information. Following the official release schedule guarantees consistency.
Not sure what you mean with the raw information matter. Even with the current ruleset it's forbidden to post information about the chapter if an English translation isn't out. Awaikage Talk 20:58, January 12, 2020 (UTC)
So after VIZ released their chapter, we're allowed to use fan-TLs as reference to add information, but adding information before VIZ released their chapter is generally not allowed anymore, even if a fan-TL exists?
And regarding the raws: What I'm saying is, if a fan-TL exists before VIZ released their chapter, and someone who knows JP can doublecheck the fan-TL with the raw, would they be allowed to add information? I guess not, if I understand this rule change correctly, right?
So all in all: New information is only to be added to the wiki after VIZ has released their chapter, no matter if a fan-TL exists before. If so, then IP edits should definitely be deactivated. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:05, January 12, 2020 (UTC)
I think you've already forgotten how was it with the "reliable scanlations": A chapter was released usually not in English or Japanese, translated by the "reliable teams", and the pages was updated, then, occasionally there would be debates about naming which more often then none resulted in "wait for the official release", "wait for the raw", or "wait for the volume release", and after each of those time points were reached, the pages were edited accordingly. Basically, nothing would change other the dates and the source by which the first edit is done.
As I see it there are three common cases with viz\scanlation\raw naming:
- Bad translations - Zoro v. Zolo
- Literal Translation:
- Honorifics - O-Tama and O-Kiku
- Idioms - Beast, Hundred Beasts, Animal Kingdom
If a fan translation manages to entrench itself into the community as well as Mangastream or Jaimini's did, and the online community clearly revolves around that release, then I might support going back to the old way down the road. But given the steps taken by Shueisha, and the responses of Mangastream and Jaimini's as a result, I think it's the logical step to go their way - of course, just as we did not take their translations as law, neither do we have to treat Viz as such. The chapter page thing proposed below seems like a good compromise ultimately. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 05:00, January 13, 2020 (UTC)
The majority is in favor of the proposal, so I wrote a draft for the new rules. This incorporates the suggestion of a restricted chapter article.
- Do not add information from a new chapter to any other article, other than the article of the chapter (titled 'Chapter ####'), until the chapter is officially available in English.
- Do not upload images from a new chapter until the chapter is officially available.
- An article for a new chapter can be created when a release date is confirmed.
- Do not add information based on spoilers to the article.
- If the complete chapter is unofficially released in English, the chapter article can be updated with the following information: Title, Cover Page, Characters, as well as Chapter Notes based on visually verifiable information.
Suggested addition to the images rule: Since the raw would be available very close to the OR (official release), there really isn't a need for a scanlation images at all. Rhavkin (talk) 19:42, January 12, 2020 (UTC)
ST, you are speaking in title again. What "issues with the unreleased template"? I for one don't know what you are referring to, nor am I were there were ever issues with that template. Can you be more specific? Rhavkin (talk) 08:03, January 13, 2020 (UTC)
I included it based on Rhavkin's suggestion. If it seems like an issue then it could be removed.. Not sure what ST is referring to but there will be a new template made for this. Awaikage Talk 17:36, January 14, 2020 (UTC)
Oh so "title" refers to both? I thought it refers only to the title's English TL. The Japanese should be unaffected, shouldn't it? I mean, what's the point of having people who know Japanese on board when they can't add Japanese stuff^^ • Seelentau 愛 議 18:31, January 14, 2020 (UTC)
What I mean is: Chapter 968 will come out in a few days. If we don't use fan-TLs, the article intro will say "Chapter 968 is titled ' '." and the infobox won't have a VIZ title. I will add the Japanese title and romanization as soon as it's available to me, of course. But what should I/we put in the intro until the release? Nothing? By the way, since we know when the chapter will be released, wouldn't an article be okay to create already? • Seelentau 愛 議 12:41, January 15, 2020 (UTC)
The introduction can instead state the release date, as we do with volumes before the title is announced. "Chapter 968 is set to be released on January 20, 2020". The chapter article can be created once these rules are added to the Guidebook. It seems we're ready now, so I'll go ahead with that and the announcement. Awaikage Talk 13:04, January 15, 2020 (UTC)
So, I figured now that we have our first chapter under the new rule, I might as well put down what I noticed (not attacking anyone with this btw):
- The information that was added was based on Korean translations and/or spoilers, because no English TL exists or existed back then. So it shouldn't have been added according to the rules. And yes, I added the JP title, but I only followed suit (and reverted my earlier additions, of course).
- Part of the information added was either not verifiable through pictures only (such as Roger disbanding the crew), or blatantly wrong (such as them visiting FMI again).
So from my POV, we should either be more strict and not even allow for the creation of a chapter article (or at least not allow any info aside from the release date) until official release, or be more lenient and allow for information provided by trusted sources (although we'd have to decide who is a trusted source and who is not). • Seelentau 愛 議 15:30, January 17, 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, I misunderstood the new rules.
- I didn't realized it was just English fan-TLs.
- To me, Roger leaving the crew was the point that was already confirmed way back by Rayleigh in Sabaody about the crew. Yes the literal spoilers were a factor, but since it is not new information, I believe it was fine. The same thing about the FI return, since we know Rouge and Ace are from South Blue, and Wano in the New World, and we don't know about another way to reach from one to another, the crew had to go through there, and based on the shown places the crew docked on and the appearance of Shyarly.
I can go along with this as well since I don't mind what happens since usually I seek out basic info first so I could understand what is going to happen before the full material is posted here. I wouldn't mind waiting the extra 2 days since it is usually around at 12-1PM in my area (Pacific Time) that VIZ posts their new SJ releases which is how I helped with translating the English titles in the past since they began their current format. A few other notes:
- Having basic information on a chapter like 968 is fine since it does contain some verifiable notes and would work until the full spoilers come out.
- Not counting the scanlation groups, reddit, or the videos posted by Youtube users, there have been other sites that have been posting One Piece articles with summaries for the new chapters in their articles.
- One thing I would also like to bring up is that in the past I was a bit irradiated when users were copying and pasting Chapter Notes for the Story Impact section of the Saga pages and I am glad that section was cleaned up for Wano Country recently. These new rules should be of some help but I advise on being observant in the future to avoid as many messy cleanups and revisions.
@Rhavkin: The thing is, the FMI part was a flashback. I'm not sure right now how much of the full page was leaked in spoilers, but on the full page, you can see by the border that it's a flashback. The page was translated by now too, by the way. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:53, January 17, 2020 (UTC)
I know it's a flashback, but since it was shown shortly before Roger's departure, and according to the spoilers he also asked about the right person to find One Piece, it obviously after reaching Laugh Tale, hence third time. Also, where was it translated in English? Rhavkin (talk) 18:08, January 17, 2020 (UTC)
No, the flashback is by Roger, right when he disbands his crew, from when they reached FMI and Roger asked Shyarly about Poseidon.
It's not really been "posted" yet (by some group in one place or so), just some pages thrown together by other fans on /a/. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:16, January 17, 2020 (UTC)
So it seems there was confusion regarding when the basic information can be added to the chapter article. Are we on the same page now? It can be added if the complete chapter is released in English. Spoiler info shouldn't be added. Awaikage Talk 18:46, January 17, 2020 (UTC)
Officially released in English or fan-TLed in English? Because if it's the latter, nothing has changed from before, right? Spoiler info was never allowed, after all. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:02, January 17, 2020 (UTC)
Talking for myself, yes. However protecting the page until the official release negate the need for a pre release page. Or is it only due to my additions? Also, to avoid double work, could you add the info again with as a "<!--hidden text-->"? Rhavkin (talk) 19:05, January 17, 2020 (UTC)
"If the complete chapter is unofficially released in English..." So on that front it's the same as before, no spoilers. The restrictions come for what can be added in period between unofficial-official release. The correct sections were edited this time but just too soon. Awaikage Talk 19:35, January 17, 2020 (UTC)
Okay so what if someone had access to the raw, translated it on their own (or could simply read Japanese) and then added the information? Or does the TL have to be available to everyone in the form of a scanlation? • Seelentau 愛 議 19:38, January 17, 2020 (UTC)
So just for clarification for everyone, the process is this.
- Release date confirmed --> Blank chapter page with Template:Official.
- Complete English scanlation --> The chapter page can be updated with the basic information specified in the rules (Japanese Title, Cover Page, Characters etc.).
- Official English release --> All information can be added on every page.
There's been a complete scanlation for a while, but people have been mixed opinions on it, mainly because the first page uses a weird font. From what I can see, the information seems to be accurate, though. There's no instances of weird illnesses or stuff like that. • Seelentau 愛 議 01:44, January 18, 2020 (UTC)
And this week we have this. English, accessible, and out for several hours. According to the new rules the chapter page can be edited but it is protected until the OR, Then what is the point of the page? Rhavkin (talk) 22:04, January 24, 2020 (UTC)
Okay, week 2:
- We can tell the old man is using the Bari Bari no Mi due to is fingers, so it is visual based.
- The names in the character table can be changed when the pages are made according to the OR, but they are there as fan-translated as placeholders.
I added her because she was addressed as Okami-San, so with my very limited understanding of honorifics, I just removed the "San". OR will clear things up. Rhavkin (talk) 23:02, January 24, 2020 (UTC)
In 968 Chiffon was called Okami-san (おカミさん?) and this chapter used Okami-san (おかみさん?), so it is Katakana vs. Hiragana. Also, in Chapter 825, when Chiffon first appeared, she was also called Okami-san (おかみさん?) with Hiragana. There are more evidence that she is unnamed for now. Rhavkin (talk) 08:43, January 25, 2020 (UTC)