Related Topic: Forum:Image Guidelines
OK I think we need a global discussion on the way images shall be used on the wiki ones and for all at least just to release my frustration. I will not hide my point any longer since I think it is perfectly known by those who care about this wiki. I feel like the manga has not the place it deserve on the wiki. I mean every sunday all the good images drawn by Oda are systematically replaced by anime pictures which are not always as good. Not only are they not always good but we get rid of the essence of what a manga is. A manga is a japanese black and white comic book, it is also the original material. The black and white, the bubble, the katakana sound effect are completely lost with the anime image. So by removing the manga images we are losing a lot : on an information point of view since we get rid of half of what One Piece is, very often on a quality point of view, and, at least to me, on an emotionnal point of view, since the manga comes before the anime. Just take an example from yesterday :
Is there really someone who thinks that the anime picture is better?
So I initially tried to get the manga back through the infobox and it was appreciated by the community until there was a veto. All the problems raised during the discussion are specific to the infoboxes and do not apply for plot pictures. The only question is the number of images in question which is not a minor issue. The guidelines were written a long time ago when not that many pictures were uploaded, so we need to start a new discussion.
This topic is made so as to answered a few questions :
- Am I the only one frustrated here ?
- If not, how do we handle it ?
Kdom 06:30, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
On another subject there is this glitch issue, I have received again an answer from the wikia staff saying that they are trying to solve it. Until they correct it I think it is best to not try reupload the images to much.
I enjoy the anime pictures more than the manga pictures. Though I admit you have made a very valid argument and I give you credit on how well written it is. I just find that the colors are both refreshing and easier on the eyes. I feel that the bubbles actually take away from the picture, by taking away space. And these images are approved by the author. -Lotus2490 September 5, 2010
As great as Oda's art is, the point in some parts of the wikia does not focus on the art. Character articles for example are supposed to focus on characters. They're supposed to show the best depiction of a character. A black and white pic of a character maybe Oda's own work but it may not be the best depiction of what he has in mind for the character. I mean he obviously has some say in the color of some characters when they are presented in the anime. Why do you think Marco and Thatch have such drastic color changes?
As for the scene presented, there are some obvious art differences presented but that's not point of the image. The point is whether the scene is represented well. It maybe an example of how sloppy the anime could get but it doesn't mean everything the anime does is crap.Mugiwara Franky 07:10, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
- When a character is drawn poorly on the anime version it is not the best depiction of a character. If Oda wanted to draw in color he could have made an anime directly, there must be a reason why he choose this medium. I don't know why the black and white is so despised, a lots of comics masterpieces are in black and white (cf my avatar). To me, color is like suggar, it's easy to like it, but by growing up, you start to appreciate the other tastes more.
- But that's not the point of this discussion, which is : are we still continuing to suppress all the manga images from this wiki when it is a wiki about a manga ? Kdom 19:33, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
- PS : also MF is it possible to put this discussion on the Community Corner please
- Note; the wikia isn't about a manga - its about all things one piece, manga and anime equally. However manga storyline will ALWAYS take president over anime storyline, that is the exception to the rule. However, I also point out here too that we have all sorts of readers visiting the wikia, some will only know the manga, other the anime, the others both. Some many even come here for the games or figures infomation. Therefore our priorty is to cover everything One Piece. 220.127.116.11 20:27, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
- Also... The fact we do take the manga storyline as president means we embrace it and reject the anime storyline (its easier to deal with anyway since theres few conflicting storylines). So we're not really supressing the manga at all, its the core of all the information here, with exceptions of "anime only" stuff, games and figurines, etc things like that. And the majority of the pages on here will have everything written to the manga. In the end, images is back to personnel perfereneces problems again, when we first opened shop there was VERY few images up in history sections aside from the odd one or two. They've grown over time as different editors want them there. 18.104.22.168 20:31, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
What ruins that manga image is the huge sound effects and the speech bubbles. As nice as the artwork is, its not clean and while you argue about Oda's work... Have you actually ever bothered comparing a RAW with a scanalation? If you want the orginal, you'll be asking for raw, not scanalation. I hate to say it... But there are differences between a scanners results and the orginal that makes your argument weaker and you wouldn't notice unless you look. And I'm not talking translations here. ¬_¬' 22.214.171.124 19:45, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
- Also as I've said before, as part of a blunder on my part, the word "anime" isn't on the image guidelines where it needs to be and the consqueneces are it really results in the perference for one or the other optional to situation. However I will note the use of anime is more "universal" reasons then anything. half manga and half anime looks ugly to be quite frank if you really want to go down that path, but as I prefer I note that you can argue "quality" all you like. Quality doesn't ness. mean file or image shaprness it means many layers including how useful it is to the wikia. Standardisation is often better all round then anything for "quality" as well of the overall wikia as it keeps the reader from getting visionally confused.
- The question of image sharpness is overall just one of several factors. Sometimes, we can even reject the anime counterpart of the manga image for another for those same reasons. Example, I would not resort to use your example the Kdom, I'd have found another frame of image to display. The manga unfortantely has its faults and though it is a direct representation of Oda's work, it doesn't always mean its all that useful to us. Is an image taken up by 50% speech bubble that useful when the anime has nothing to clutter it? Also, as I said before old scans are often poor quality due to the change in technology and hands of scanning groups so it is not advisable to fully spend time turning everything manga.
- Also consider this, we really don't need images at all, their just there as demos. Also consider as well, that one frame of the anime isn't as big of a issue on copyright as one frame of about 50 in total of a singal chapter. Because there are thousands of frames per episode and not with manga. That why I don'/t like whole pages uploaded myself. Thats a small chunk of the manga uploaded and it puts us on the level of scanalation groups. Since we draw the lines with short one move animations, we're never likely to get as bad as subbers at least. 126.96.36.199 20:04, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry about spelling errors... I'm really struggling with this computer and my current one might not be returning ever to me... T_T 188.8.131.52 20:07, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
I completely sympathize with what you're saying, Kdom. I really, really do. But I think more often than not, the anime does look pretty brilliant overall, with a couple exceptions here and there. (In which case, I'm starting to believe, we just shouldn't use that image at all, but that's another story). The anime gives us the full color of characters/settings without any distracting speech bubbles/sound effects. It's ccmpletely visual, which I think the majority of people appreciate, and it's just... appealing. Especially, as this is an English wiki, things should be as translatable as possible-- so, images can be understood across the board. I'm not saying that those words/effects make the picture bad on the manga page. The job of a good mangaka (any comicker) is to incorporate all of that so the page looks wonderful all together. And of course, Oda's one of the best. But we've actually got a choice that allows us to pick one that will immediately get the idea across without anything else blocking the way.
And I think, as an encylcopedia, we should be consistent throughout the site. And that means choosing one route, so all the pages are as...hm, compatible, as possible. I know this can't always be done (some things were just never animated), but we should make it so when we can. Those are my two cents. YazzyDream 20:09, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
- The sound effect is exactly why I like this picture. That's a fundamental characteristic of manga, how can you say it deserve the image ? Currently the arc page are half anime half manga and nobody says it's ugly. If we have to only use anime, then manga plot pictures should not be uploaded at all. And I don't see how we are encyclopedic in getting rid of half of what one piece is. Kdom 20:45, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
- Very few editors visit the arcs pages to edit them, but the general rule is we start with manga as the placeholder and convert to anime when the time comes. Its pretty much been that way for a long time. And plus, I don't anyone would even have the common thought to complain our pages are ugly anyway... Most come here for information anyway, if they want to read/ watch they go elsewhere for those services as we don't offer them. But an editors point of viiew will be different, as you've proven yourself, to a general reader. 184.108.40.206 20:49, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
The anime image should always be used over the manga images. A color change can be put in the gallery section. SeaTerror 21:06, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
- "I'm not saying that those words/effects make the picture bad on the manga page. The job of a good mangaka (any comicker) is to incorporate all of that so the page looks wonderful all together. And of course, Oda's one of the best. But we've actually got a choice that allows us to pick one that will immediately get the idea across without anything else blocking the way."
- In layman's terms: the idea is to get the idea across immediately.
- We aren't getting "rid of half of what One Piece is." One Piece is about the characters and story. It isn't just about the manga. Whether you like it or not, the anime is part of it too.
- For the arcs we use the manga image until the scene's animated, as it's always been done.
- This is obviously never going to satify you. Which is fine, you have you're own ideas, and I have my own. The way this is going to have to be settled is by majority because I know I'm not going to change my mind. And I highly doubt you will either. Other editors/visitors/fans are going to have to put this to some kind of vote, that's the simplest way to settle this. If everyone wants to use the manga images, I'll just drop it. Easy as that. YazzyDream 21:09, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
Well I don't see what is the problem in keeping a few manga pictures, that we could choose in the end by poll. I don't ask for a lot, but not zero like it is now. When One Piece will be ultimately finished, the only thing that will remain of Oda works will be the cover images. I find it very unfair. Kdom 21:10, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
- Yazzydream, visually we are getting rid of half of One Piece, hence I would never have started that topic and like I said when one piece will be finished...
- I would beg to differ. Getting rid of half the series would be loosing many of the cores essences. Art is art and we can argue all day on it, but Oda's luffy and storyline is another thing. We cover the manga storyline, thats more important to a page then a image. Goes back to "well we really don't need images at all" if push comes to shove.
- Personnelly, due to dyslecia, I myself admit I favor anime images because B + W against B + W test gives me a headaches to read. Tharts because I read image, not letters and that B + w next to the text is really distracting. Hehee, however every person has different perfernces and I honesltly am a very minority here on that problem. So its likely I'm the only one here with it. I admit, some of the pretty colours (not images__) on the wikia were added because I found black on orange easier toread then black on white. 220.127.116.11 21:22, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
Can I just ask please, that we delay voting for a few days of any kind? We always start voting and then something crops up throwing the votes in disarray. I'd like discussion before voting this time. 18.104.22.168 21:13, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Kdom, we really are missing good manga images around. I mean, it's nice to have a colored version of a picture of a place, sometimes even a character, but when you try to get a picture of a moment, it's much harder to get a good pic. Because manga only has a few frames, so each frame HAS to be good, because manga can only use the drawing effects to show the emotion of the moment. But anime has tons of frames, uses every kind of graphic and sound effects to make the current scene the better as possible, and so, they don't always draw things like the characters' faces fine (usually in action scenes).
What i'm trying to say is that there are more chances of having a good picture in the manga since each frame has to be drawn perfectly, and doesn't need anything else than a picture to depict the emotion of the moment. Anime uses animation, making everything a lot more active, but not necessarily making each frame a good frame.GMTails 23:16, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
- While it is true that there are better drawn scenes in the manga, that should not be the reason why anime images should not be used. As for sound effects, they are used in the manga due to lack of sound. In the anime, that sound is usually expressed thus not needed unless somebody decides to put in for art sake.
- For wanting the manga more for stuff like speech bubbles and sound effects however, that's more of a matter of personal preference. That thinking doesn't always work in trying to show people what needs to be shown.
- As to Oda's medium, just because his manga is presented mostly in black and white, does not mean that he doesn't think in color. Why does he color his volume covers, if he only thought in black and white? The reason it is mostly black and white is because of prevalent limitations present in Japanese comics, limitations that are not found in western comics.
- Like Angel is saying also, the wikia is not just about the manga or the anime. It is both. The written content, which is the core of the wikia, supports more towards the manga. You cannot say that we are playing favoritism towards the anime just because we use anime pictures. Pictures are just pictures. They show a point but don't necessarily tell the whole story without paragraphs next to them. The only way they could tell the whole story alone was if they were arranged like the manga or animated like the anime.Mugiwara Franky 05:45, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
- Colour pages are very expensive in Japan while b + w are very cheap, hence why there are so few colour overall. And the fact colour does exist doesn't mean we should restrict ourselves to favoring B + W. as I said earlier in a different topic, most will know Luffy via his red vest and straw hat, not by anything else because thats what Oda put him in for 10 years and has only just started to change it. Take note also some changes will be made after the timeskip since the characters will age 2 years. That means, eventually many infobox images will change, but still doesn't change the fact that many anime/manga fans will know Luffy instantly from the colour version of him then the B + W. 22.214.171.124 06:22, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
- Animation is more or less in the same boat as single frames, the fdifference is we can't owe much space for animation die to size and loading times. Often they have to be shrunk so they take up less memory. Also Oda isn't perfect, everyone makes mistakes. And more over I know when I first joined major on-line One Piece fans, I note one fan had complained that they prefer the anime just because the manga sometimes fails to convey what Oda is trying to do. Thats because B + W is more limited on what it can do, hence we have tones. Though is more clear then some other mangaka because he rejects mid-tones (he finds them little use), but depth is only portrayed through drawing techniques and that is all up to his handling skills. I noted once in the Thriller Bark arc, I believe, someone actually said one of the chapters wasn't up to par with Oda usual standards, though off the top of my head for the life of me can't remember the no.
- Also since no one has told me what the difference between scanalation and raw are, its because tones. those tones get lost in clean up processes, so often the scanlation groups have to replace them with their own. the orginals are just a series of "." but often the replaced ones are "(.)" depending on the tone. It happens, their not perfect. And also they may have to redraw the entire frame for smooth lines, I know I've compared two frames of one of each before and see alignment problems with the scanlation aginst it raw carbon copy. Of course, this varies between groups and techniques, but it is a point to be made; a scanalation isn't a true representation of Oda's work because something is lost in clean-up. 126.96.36.199 06:22, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
@GMTails, in your exemple the gif was used because a single frame matching the manga couldn't be found not because it was good. Did I already said that I didn't like Gifs... @Mugiwara Franky, there is no sound in the anime picture either, whereas we have it in the manga through the visual effect. Also it's not a matter of preference. When you say that we give the same place to the manga than to the anime it is utterly wrong. By getting rid of every manga visualisation we are getting rid of something of utterly importance. It's not like if One Piece was a book ; it is a comic, hence it is something visual and we don't even put image of it. If someone wants to come here to see what type of design One Piece Manga is like, he can't find it ! That's quite quite crazy, especially when we have other pages like Gigant_Battle on this wiki.
Also the manga pictures are chosen among the best ones of the manga because like Angel said, not all of them are worthy of being displayed. But currently there is not the same thinking with the anime pictures. The replacement has become the game of every sunday : replace the manga images as quick as possible without even thinking if they are good or if they are some other anime scenes that could be better. Kdom 06:25, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
- The actual epsiode with Blackbeard Vs Ace is amongst one of the poor episodes, but the next decent image was a less match for the infoxbox image. So occusionally, its a matter of "oh well we did our best". But yes, we SHOULD be rejecting images from the anime when they don't meet standards and yet for one reason or another we don't.
- I note that due to various reasons the worst epsiodes are usually te ones drawn outside of Japan, since the Japanese have studios and colleges and so forth set up for percifically traising anime and manga artists at high qualitity stanards. However outside of Japanese education, the differences can depend. For the sake of One Piece airing in Korea, it is most likely 50%+ of the anime staff is Korean since the anime rule was, at least I know from several years back, the staff must be that much Korean to be aired in their country. unfortantely, you can tell a Korean animators work on times from the Japanese trained... They usually save their best trained animators for more eventful episodes as well, so the typical episode you see in the anime is most likely drawn by the secdondary art animators, not the big masters.
- So yes, there are bad epsiodes and when their bad the whole episode will be bad because the artist will have worked on the entire epsiode. In those cases, reverting and waiting one more week for another image (we did this during the older arcs - it isn't being done with new chapters) for a better drawn episode might mean we loose one image completely, but we require a bettr one for other pursposes the next week. 188.8.131.52 06:35, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
- What you have written, Kdom, is real, and somehow, moving. I was a convinced supporter of the "anime faction", but now I've changed my mind, I realised that I like the manga more, that is the weekly manga chapter I wait with more anxiety, that, among my "anime friends", I am the "manga fan". What you've said is true, Oda's wonderful, eccentric draws don't have enough space on this Wikia.
- On the other side, many visitors may argue on the possible lack of anime images... And so, maybe is a stupid idea and/or I'm not the first one in this discussion to suggest it, but... Why not to have "double" pictures? Like the ones used for characters infobox? One could then select "Anime" or "Manga" and adorn the page he's looking at with the images he likes most! ;) Aldarinor 07:16, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
- Doubling every image is a very bad idea. The reason we're having this discussion also is because the infobox toggle proposal fell. All I'm gonna say though that this anime vs. manga dispute is really uneeded.Mugiwara Franky 07:27, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
- Anime illustrator can't make good pictures as oda drawn, for example hancock's face, Hancock's face often looks ugly in anime. The picture of luffy and his allies from anime was bad! but effect and movement in anime are very good, it worked by professional director. anime picture can show things happens with more detail.
07:27, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
- Or make a tab in every articles, like Roronoa Zoro/Manga and Roronoa Zoro/Anime.
07:32, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
- No way! Theres so little difference Why seperate them? Aside from the extra filler storyline its EXACTLY the same information passed around. This is an even worst solution then the toggle feature in my opinion because we've got two pages to deal with for the same character with different cicumstances to take into account. 184.108.40.206 18:01, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
14:45, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
All of the arguments against the toggle in the char box pages don't apply for the plot images, also people liked it, the number of positive vote was twice as much as the negative one. The only issue is the number of images which could be easily solved if we limit the number of images per page. Even if we don't use it because it is still to much why don't we keep two or three ? The manga is not represented visually on this wiki compared to the anime. You cannot deny that point except being of the worse bad faith ever. And it's not just a matter of preference, since there is absolutely no reason to favorise anime over manga which are both equally part of the one piece story. So far the only counter argument is the fact that we use scanlation, but I'm not sure people will notice the tone differences on images thumbnails. Also I still think that the replacement of the anime images shall not be as systematic as it is currently since there is absolutely no reflexion whether the image is good or bad. Kdom 19:35, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
"And it's not just a matter of preference, since there is absolutely no reason to favorise anime over manga which are both equally part of the one piece story. " Except for the fact that the anime images are in color and the toggle code would just clutter the articles SeaTerror 20:08, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
I'm sorry for you, but we are not a Wall Disney wiki and manga will always be in black and white. So I can just hope that one day you will be able to fully appreciate something which is not in color and how mangaka are doing awesome jobs making the black and white great. And the toggle link needs to be at only 1 place in the page so that is not cluttering. Kdom 20:24, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
Walt Disney started with black and white. Now you're just being an idiot by assuming I don't like black and white. It still clutters it and adds more to the article than is needed SeaTerror 20:47, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
- Hey guys, insults need to be kept to yourself. 220.127.116.11 21:26, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
Can I just say, I don't like the sidea that remains where history and other unededed images get toggled when images like this one, used in Shanks' "animand and manga difference" really need it and the history sections DON'T. 18.104.22.168 21:26, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
Well if everyone like them why don't we use them. If we revert some of the anime to the manga ones then we don't increase the number of images on the wiki so that's no more an issue. And for those who absolutely want to see only color images on a page then the toggle can be use so only one type of art appear. Is there a problem with that solution ? Kdom 21:36, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
- As much as the toggle feature can allow it, it really just creates more of a problem rather than solves one.
- Forces the community to be divided into anime and manga.
- Requires people, both old and new, to know coding especially if they want to see a set of images right away without toggling
- Really asks for more images
- Makes things a bit harder as some images in the manga can't be found in the anime
- Likewise makes things a bit harder as some images in the anime can't be found in the manga
- The toggle feature is nice, however just because people like it doesn't mean that every proposed use is acceptable. I mean I can propose to use the toggle feature so those that want "Hentai" versions of their favorite characters can be allowed.Mugiwara Franky 03:04, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
Did you read my last post ? And the community wouldn't be divided if we let more place on the wiki like I suggest. it's the current anime only statu quo that divide it Kdom 05:54, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
- I did read it and I still say it will cause problems. If you are gonna revert images to manga, there's the question of which images should be reverted. Also the proposals that are being proposed are what are dividing the community. Prior to the toggle feature, there was a general understanding on where both the anime and the manga stand. When it was implemented and the char box proposal was made, people now want to divide the wikia between manga and anime. People are even complaining that the anime is taking full precedence when its mostly in the image department where it is applied.Mugiwara Franky 08:41, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
- MF has a point, there was no crib with using anime images before and to be quite honest, it had always been done. But the fact we stick by manga storyline does not mean we're not showing any catering at all towards the manga. For a brief short history, when we all first came here from wikipedia, we stuck to manga storyline because the wikipedian communitity was forcing us to take anime over manga as president, more specifically the 4Kids anime version. And believe me, the images we had on offer for the manga in those days came from MSN sites, a system long since retired due to the copyright infridegment going on those sites. So we had to use images for anime because there simply weren't good images for the manga. Plus for our sakes and easier identification of just WHO was in the image, anime was a better calling then manga. While it is less true now, back in those days even we had difficultly with odd very minor characters, we simply could tell who was who just yet because we weren't familair with those characters. Its because of the anime pictures and more solid research, we slowly got where we were.
- For the sake of being able to easily identify the characters in the picture, I think I prefer the anime over manga. If the colours are wrong, they'll either be updated as the series goes along or continue to be used anyway. Consider something I've pointed out many times already; you only see many characters ONCE from Oda in colour. One-Winged Hawk 09:24, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
Concerning the toggle, my proposition has answered the point 3, 4, and 5.
For point 1, there was already a crib wrt the use of anime image, the fact that you didn't see it may be one thing but I didn't make this topic just for myself. When I introduced the toggle it was in order to satisfy people I had seen once complaining about the manga replacement. The toggle issue was only a catalyst to what was already existing. Also you admit it yourself, the reason we used only anime image are based on facts that are not true anymore. Hence the argument we have always do like that is not really valid and at least this discussion is not completely pointless.
Also, Mugiwara Franky, I'm a bit tired of seing you making it sound like it was just a dispute over if people prefer manga or anime. I could say that your desire to have only anime image is just because "you like the anime better". I think I have my point clear enough. The manga and the anime are the both mediums used for One Piece and there is no reason why we should favorise that much one wrt the other . You say that in the text we give the preference to manga, but that's not really true. Everytime the anime diverge from the manga it has its own section, when it has not it's just mean that the anime is exactly the same as the manga. Each medium has the place it deserve. So again, why don't we do for the images what we are doing for the text ? Images are the first thing that visitor see, and I'm sorry when they see an anime image next to a text, the first thing that comes into their mind is probably not what I read is what happens in the manga. In my propositions, anime has always had it's place. On the contrary, you always denied the desire to have manga pictures claiming that it was just a matter of preference for manga. I'm still waiting for you to prove me that your proposition to keep them out is not a matter of preference for the anime images.
Also the question of what image to revert is not really an issue. We can start forums on that topic like we have currently for the Arc boxes. I think that would be interesting as we would see what the community like in the manga and in the anime. Kdom 22:12, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
- Quote from the main page; "Hello and welcome to the One Piece Encyclopedia, the encyclopedia for the anime and manga One Piece that anyone can edit."
- I'll point this has been there for oday one and pretty much sums all the entire Vs image status, we are what are are, we cater foreverutthing, not one over the other. However we can't maintain all of the things at once. No, no matter what you say, its like this, we have to decide on a stanard of some form one way or another. Also, you keep quoting from what YOU want kdom, theres a flaw in your argument and that is you can only speak from your perspective and point of views, just as only I or MF can do. You are not the readers of the series, can I just ask you stop using that argumentbecause until you ask the readers point of view, sitead of going by what you concieve it to be, that argument is euqqually flawed as tas "we've always done it". Say your a youtuber who has never read the manga, would you know theres even a difference? We have to cater for all sorts of approaches, not just the make believe one you come up here instead your head.
- Also, images and text are handled differently, you can't use the image giidelines for the text? No, you can't. text never needed any form of overall guidelie because week in week out we have no idea what the next chapter brings nor are we in a position to say "each sentance needs to be so long" and all we've ever said is "use manga first". Also because we have to deal with both manga and anime, this is why even though its not present on history sections we have "anime only" pages, simply because for the upteenth millionth time, we handle BOTH.
- And while we have the "we've always done it arguement " theres another form of argument "don't fix whats brokejn" and its been not broken at all. However all of a suddenyl you've somehow mangae to make it look like what was done for the benefits of all trying to cope with 400+ and growing characters pretty much look like a stupid approach. Yes we use ANIME over manga, but have you really been paying attention at all here? One particular thing boring me here is that while the pro-manga folks ARE intdeed bringing up reasons for it, their being selective with their eplys to those pointing out why we use anime over manga in the first place and converting all arguments to just one or two "same old, same old" beliefs that its simply wrong to do it the way we do.
- Perhaps, just consider this, just maybe, just maybe, there was a reaosn at the start for doing it one way, acccept that we have always done it that way and try to attempt to think we've stuck by the system that WORKS. And honestly, beyond the main established characters, I can't work with B- +W images, I just struggle to read WHO was in the image sometimes. I keep saying, for identifications sakes, and for those curious way, if I see a character I know has blue skin I know its one of only a select few.
- Unfortantely, I can't answer all of kdom's conversation due to tiredness this point in time so I'll leave this at that. Its sort of 1 o'clock in the morning for me and I have a work training day ahead of me.
- To me the idea of there even existing a need for both manga and anime on a page is crazy beyond educating folks in the "anime and manga differences section" since if the image is telling EXACTLY the same thing, overall colour and black and white wont' mean a difference over which is used. In the end, its stupid to argue over this whole scanerio, and I wish this argument would just end because now its giving me a headache. We've discussed this a lot lately and all sides keep standing by their guns, honestly we are starting to slowly spiral now into a circle form once again on the issue.
- Does it matter, I've already established that due to a missing word , a blunder on my part, anime and agoing around in circles. So I'm gonna prepose this to be added to the guidelines, perhaps there is a Anime Vs manga section. I nbote, however the fact the anime image version of the manga counterpart isn't the quality of the manga is not a reason to use a anime image at all, they simply need to be swapped. Now that I have sveral things off my chest - bed, I can barely makes sense of my thoughts and honestly and truly i don't understand some of this I've written, but you know what, I'm sick of heearing Kdom telling us how kdom thinks readers percieve the page without seeing proof they DO precieve it this or that way. So I don't want to hear that argument used until you, Kdom, or anyone else for that matter, brings up the proof that backs their opinion being forced as fact as solid proof its not just that. 22.214.171.124 00:08, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
Okay, this is getting silly, so I'm going to focus this discussion now, I've had my snooze looked at my writing and decided that isn't a good last post since I wrote it on tiredness. I'm going to focus on a preposal, that we simply fix ourself on Image Guidelines, the thing we bring up, but never prepose changes to. And note, if nothings resolved, I will start altering that page anyway to include things how they currently are, forcing everyone to finally bring from the constant circles.
- Lets get someone established, until toggle WAS activated, we neevr had a problem with things are, that I will now agree with MF, things had been working fine. And it seems to be the toggle feature as activated a thought that never really exist.
- Both me and MF are starting to get fed up with this whole discussion, we put out our thoughts. While MF is taking the brunt of the force coming from Kdom, I've yet to see all of my previous points looked at. I'm not a admin like MF, but I do have a lot of time for thought and put a lot of time into things. I can often see points being made others aren't bothering to answer. Its no good chasing butterflies you can't catch, focus n the catepillars they come from.
- I'm basically asking everyone - think like a lawyer here because honestly, the circles are caused when two side can't find a new angle to continue their arguement on so they stick and stay by the one they like without looking for new angles.
- The arguement "thats how we've always done it" is indeed incorrect, however as I keep noting there are reasons why things were done in the first place. Put yourself in our shoes but in 2007 when the site first young, we have barely many of the many 400+ characters in One Piece. Anime helps us by providing the colours of the characters within any given scene and therefore I myself, who I will also point out at this point also has a reading problem, prefers it. If I see a scene, I know whose in it in the anime straight away if their worth noting. Also, it was a system that worked without thought.
- Manga is a nice approach but take note a scene with speech bubbles might not always be the best portrayl of the manga.
- A lot of people favor the images like the orginal one put up here on this page by Kdom, but honestly I HATE those kind of images. If images are demostrations then what is that demostrating? Tell me, honestly, aside form a show of characters its not telling us what is going on in the scene. I keep seeing this time and time again, its a decoration that particular image and even in manga form isn't good for a history section. So either way, if I had time to go through the wikia and my own computer I'd be throwing images out like that because they do NOTHING for the text they support. Now, say for instance a fight scene - brilliant! Heck even a scene of Luffy climbing a mountain is a good reflection of the text its with, but a general group pose is rubbish and is not the ideal reflection of the events.
- Theres no rule that says we have to have images on the wikia in anime format, I admit my error and accept I plundered. However, I notice that while we keep avoiding the matter, if a quality image is not there for the manga counterpart then another image MUST be found from the same event. Note that I noticed last night, Buggy has the Marine fort image in the bit explaining why his in Impel Down - except thats not in the orginal manga, therefore that image isn't a true reflection of the event.
- Perona page I also noted, had 5 cramped images together, we honestly don't need a image for every event in no mattter what happens. Two was enough, which two is up to users. There needs to be significant text to accomplish the job as well here. I t5hink WB's beard also sufferes the same problem.
- No one has answered this, quality is mnore then one thing. When we first set up the wikia, there were few quality scans at all. So anime was essentially the way around. Standardisation was the next question - anime on one page, anime on all. Standardised so everything is consistant is a form of quality because the reader doesn't have to change how they look and percieve the page all the time. So, as kdom fails to tell me, you must confirm what "quality" fully is before we begin changes. Its not JUST detailing, its solid and firm kicking out what is and isn't helping the page. If the anime can provide a suitable alternative, then there is no reason to kick it out, but even then I've made the point before.
- Preposing image guidelines change is not damn well difficult. Read through it with a fine comb and pick it apart, seriously its our standard of what we want, but its there to be plucked and stuff as how the cook wants it roasted. I'd like to point out, that no matter what, if kdom or anyone else for that matter WANTS their way, even if they get a victory for their side image guidelines will STILL need to be rethought. Its not enough to prove your right, unless you change the guidelines to reflect current thoughts you won't be able to enforce your new point of view.
- And it is a point of view. I says, the entire manga besides the odd "anime only" bit here and there is set to the manga storyline, but I also keep reminding everyone we are manga and anime both combined. If we're picking anime images it could also be argued that w're balancing out the fact text is mostly manga based so both sides are being covered. There is no favoritism for the anime as kdom believes because your forcing something to exist that isn't true when you say it. In fact at the time of the opening of the wikia, we all favored and wanted manga. Honestly, the claim we do not favor it kind of insults some of the veterans who were working here then, because we're working from their guidelines. And don't forget, MF, myself and a few others are still here, even if some are long gone. You should understand our fustrations may be upsetting that accusionations that aren't true we we worked hard to put up a foundation everyone still is working too. ¬_¬'
- Don't forget, a page of the manga is a big copyright issue,as your taking a chunk of the source material and putting it up on the net, making us as bad as scans. So one frame fo the manga is not so much a big of copyright issue. There are thousands of frames (120 per second or something I believe) for the anime, using aniem frames therefore to a degree is a less burden to the wikia on that vitual copyright.
- Can we stop being so determined to have the images as decoration? constantly throughout this entire discussion I've seen "I want this..." and "I think that..." etc, etc, etc. Your adding personnel preference. That throws your entire desire out, you can't have a image guideline changed because of personnel perrference your need has to focus towards reasons and values and providing everyone with a solid argument on. And a lot of this is personnel perference in the end. Note the difference here is the orginal veterans had REASONS for how they worked, whereas now its someone wanting to play favoutires. If the image guidelines are to changed or expanded , as I said, the prepose changes have to be a solid reason for against how they work now.
- Both anime and manga fans come here... We cater for everyone, do not throw in "I think the readers..." or any other form like that I keep seeing. Honestly, I'm now saying what I've thought for the entire time, this is a WEAK argument. Until you go out there and find out what readers percieved the pages out as, I'm now turning around and saying that this isn't a good enough excuse for a image opinion and perference to exist. Note in the olden days of early establishing the wikia, I DID go out there on several occusions and get information and feed back from forums. okay it annoyed some and I got rude remarks back, but I did attempt to find out how they wanted things. Any argument from this point onwards will not be enough to get your thoughts accross and no matter what, unless you bring me the proof image guidelines will nto change to reflect anyone else' views on that form of argument alone.
- Images aren't really needed at all. Look at wikipedia that often survives without the need for images. We have them because its supportive of our more expansive wikia. Plus honestly, back to the demostration and identification problems notes.
The guidelines mule has spoken. Note however I don't have time to go over the entire discussion so some statements and thoughts are still missing, I'm off to training and ran out of time. I'll update this whenever I get back. ¬_¬ 126.96.36.199 07:06, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
Well I also think this discussion must find an end so here are my points
- The reasons why the anime prevails over the manga is something that current editors of the wiki were not aware of and is not written anywhere on the wiki. Despite what Angel said, it has introduced some type of dispute (Hancock char box, :File:Admiral_ace.jpg, :File:Ace_in_Impel_Down.jpg, the whitebeard commanders...)
- It was initially introduced because of the lack of good quality manga pictures which is not true anymore.
- A manga is a comic book, ie a story which greatly rely on visualisation. As a manga and anime wiki, and in order to fulfill its goal as the most informative site for everything related to Eiichiro Oda and his most notable work, One Piece, a minimum of manga pictures shall be found on this site that allows readers to know what a manga is and what Oda art style is like. If One Piece was a book then I would agree to the fact that the text depicts the manga balances the anime images. But one piece is a visual medium and, sorry, but a manga picture will tell you a tons of things about what it is that all the text in the world won't. Especially when the text only depicts the story and not at all the medium. So by suppressing the manga images, the wiki is less informative about the manga and it favorises the anime de facto. Especially for people who know One Piece only through the anime. Ask a newbie whether Impel Down Arc (or whatever other page) depicts a manga or an anime based on the summary content, what will is answer be ? If he answers the manga then that's the most clever newbie in the world.
- Bubble and Sound effects are part of the manga itself, the manga does not exist without them. So they are not a criteria of bad quality unless they completely hide the scene it is supposed to depict. Beside that, the criteria for a good image are exactly the same as the anime ones. An image that needs a caption to understand what it is (like Cal.jpg), is a bad image but a group scene like the one above is ok. Also I found gif annoying because they often load badly and when to quick, the repetition is aweful to watch, when to long they don't follow the guidelines but that's more a personal point of view.
- Anime pictures are not the original artwork and can sometime be far away from Oda's drawing (Cf Tipota example of Thriller Bark)
- There is currently absolutely no reflexion about what images shall be displayed on the wiki. The anime replaces the manga ones without questioning if they are good or bad. Half of the time they are bad screenshots with watermarks. A regular manga/anime discussion could help making the community more aware of the guidelines and the wiki nicer (note that it could be done whatever the issue of this discussion comes up to).
- Saying that the anime is more correct wrt copyright issue is a strange point of view. I'm not a lawyer but I'm quite sceptical with that. The only good behaviour is that we do not abuse of the images whatever they are.
- If one wants the page to only display one type of picture and not a mix of the two, the toggle function can be used.
- Most of us are reading the manga first then watching the anime. Hence the manga has the privilege of the first time. Do you feel the same way when you look at Impel Down convicts falling from the sky in their manga and their anime versions ?
- If manga pictures can not be used, then I agree it would be better to have none at all.
Kdom 19:30, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
- The anime does not previel over the manga, I've already proven you wrong on this time and time again but you fail to acknolwedge it. in any way shape or form. I'm now sick of explaining it so I'm going to let you believe this so we can damn well move on. If the manga storyline takes president, thats all that matters right now since its at least passable and honestly images are just images.
- Its now getting harder to find images, the scanalationsite s are reacting, so groups are struggling to find hosters, while some do exist, others are limiting their aceess. For now, manga has only so far it can go even if improvements have been made the matter remains we can't rely on this being an issue. And honestly the advantage of the anime is that Funimation IS publishing it - we can take from the subs and so long as subtitles are off you won't see the difference.
- Okay, I'm actually going to say, image my previous response as calm and causla and now imagine me harsh and brutely towards this being brought up a second time.for the last frekin' time ALL the storyline ALL the appersonnelities, devil fruit powers, are primary manga based. Anime makes up VERY LITTLE of the wikia, stop saying it isn't because only images are not,. you can find eveything here for the manga, this make believe image you have is BS Kdom and you know that. And top it off, this consitant instance is what annoys me most, because I know the struggles WE HAD at wikipedia and WHY we have manga influenbece here in the first place, in fact I don't what to hear any more of this issue, its a weak argument and you only have to look around the wikia and read and compare and you'll find enough of the manga to cover up your BS claim without a doubt. If images are the issue, its a MINOR issue considering the majority of the wikia IS manga based. Go ahead and prove beyond "anime only", "anime and manga" and pure anime pages difference, WHERE its mostly manime based on any one pagBecause beyond where we have to use anime, it simply doesn't exist. Because every time you use this claim, I find a little bit of anger in rememberance of those times at ****ing wikipedia getting to me, and its enough to say wikipedia earnt a hater for life over it. And even if the page IS mostly anime page, unless its an image issue I myself will alter it with accordance with what we set up here as rule (not guideline in this case, its a RULE we use manga for everything but odd things always has been). Now back to calm...
- Honestly this is a double edge sword arguemetn on the one hand, yes your correct, but on the other hand so am I. The advantage of the manga is that its a reflection of Oda's style, which I'll point out once again can only be found in RAW format, not scanalation. And honestly if you want scanaltions up, I'm not going to consider them anymore proof of the work then anime at this point, becuase their not. TheThats like getting a piece of Oak and claiming its better then iron for building aa piece of furniture and yet the wood you use in the argument is pine not oak.
- Watermarks are not allowed on the wikia, yeah discussions aren't happening... Despite my This needs to change, but thats up to all editors and not any guideline to change their behavior. If theres a watermark - get rid of the image instantly you find it. That is clear from image guidelines - did you read them seriously, this shouldn't have even been brought up, there isn't a place for any image with a watermark except in that one occurance?
- Actually regarding copyright, laws on TV and DVDs and comics are not identical although they have common materials. I for instance can't photocopy more then 10% of a manga is okay to uploaed for my own personnel use. Whole episodes can be copied though and kept so long as iI keep it for private use and not sell or share it. So yeah, believe it or not there ARE slight differences in las and while common things will be found, not all will be identical. There are many factors to face in. Honestly, its not that simple and the fact remains that one frame fo the manga is a more % of the copyright material then one frame of the anime.
- Actually no, most reades were orginally introduced to the series by a friend, who should them the manime. In fact I can tell you for a fact most were introduced or became fans from watching the anime because I myself did a review once this somewhere (the topcis gone from which ever forum it took place in). In order for your claim most are reading the manga to stand , you still need to bring me proof to say that I'm wrong when I say this. You have the advantage of me not being able to prove my words anymore since that old poll is long lost, but I still need to see that most fans are reading the manga first. Again, this is another form of claim not based on evidence, I'm tired of such claims. Since I can't prove nor have time to get it, you've got the advantage.
- "My way - or no way" is not a stance to take Kdom. Just because there isn't room right now for many manga images, doesn't mean there can't or won't be room if you just try you'll find more. I'm saying we can opperate without images to prove a point that they really are not decorations and this is a very important point to make that we are a primary information source and images are not always as strong of a source. In fact most of them are uploaded right now for people's personnel desire when they have little to do with helping the wikia and when I ge the chance I'll see about cleaning some of the pages up. This will come when i get my own computer back.
And now... What about my other points? I see about 15 points from me and only 10 from you? Stop calling out only a fraction of the issue here, call it all out or not at all. Even if you merge my points and cut the no. s down, you still adress far less issuesyour statements then I do. While I may have not answered all of your points, I'm working with a computer thats struggling with this page, I can't even scroll on a page without diffculty as it happens. However, I still attempted to adress all of your points to make. Plesee resepct me by doing so. 188.8.131.52 20:56, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
- So, in other words... this wiki won't take pictures from the manga using the toggle function because you and Franky don't like them and thus it's fine to overrule the majority. You keep claiming it's rule based instead of opinion based but all I'm seeing is opinion. Bastian964 21:05, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
- Oh , for the love of... This isn't a toggling image discussion... This is just a image completely discussion... If you don't know whats going on in the dicussion that won't help resolve any of the issues. ^_- 184.108.40.206 22:10, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
- I know what this entire discussion is about as a general rule and you seem to not and your response does little to help, aid or change the entrire discussion going on here. As for and FYI, sometimes in govenment they vote over policeys but when time comes for them to be put into force, they fall through legally and have to be redrafted. In the redraft, changes occur and everyone has to revote on the matte. A simulair thing happened to the US healthcare overhaul Obama wanted, although different things happen. Though something gets voted in, legally or for other reasons it doesn't always happen. MF started off as a "neutral" but when I pointed out the flaws in toggling, changed mind due a large chunk of Mkdomn's aargument being souly based on personnel perference.
- The more this argument continues, the more things become apparent there is less intention for any improvements to the wikia, its more of a "I want..." then anything. As I pointed out earlier, I said we don't even need images and Kdom response it along the childish lines off "fine don't have them" more or less those word are not exact though, but the attitude is there. In my case, I'm saying "We don't really need them at all their just there for vvarious purposes", we're a information site and at our core thats where our strength is, images are just decor half the time it seems by the attitude of some of the folks here. I don't mean to be rude, but onestly if your not helping the discussion at hand, theres little point in posting a response. Theres a lot of talk going on here and some of it isn't just surface apparent.
- Now excuse me, this is the last response I can make on this machine - the computer has had enough of this discussion so I'lll have to only post now in when I'm on the other machien I'm posting from. Sorry about this guys. 220.127.116.11 08:58, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
I don't think I can address all the points but I'll address what I can.
- The anime really only prevails in the image department, one facet of the whole wikia. We write what happens in the manga regardless if anime viewers get spoiled. We list whatever additional thing the anime adds to the story as Non-Canon. We practically give more precedence to the manga. The only part the anime has is in decor department and even that is and should be downplayed if Oda provides a good colored version via his volume covers.
- I was introduced to One Piece via the anime and the Tagalog version at that. From there, I switched to the manga as it gave more than what the dub was up to. Point is, not all people were introduced to One Piece via the manga. At least, a number of them were introduced via the anime.
- Having a toggle feature that switches all the images in an article between the manga and the anime is really no different and superfluous as having two exact pages with different versions. What's more, it can be a real hassle for people who want to see the version they want without constantly toggling. I know you can set which toggle you want via your personal code page but that is forcing people to learn more when they come to the wikia. Seriously, not everyone who comes to the wikia wants to know or learn an extra bit of coding so they can view the wikia in the way they want.
- This whole the anime is not Oda's work is really dumb. The anime is just as much Oda's work as it depicts the story he has created. So what if it's drawn by other people, is the artwork the focus of the wikia or the story? Besides, I'm not entirely sure but I believe that not everything in the manga is drawn by Oda. I'm not talking about major character designs or what not but simple stuff like simple background designs or details. Lets face it, for something as a major weekly manga, he probably has some help to check on stuff that's really minor. I mean he was an assistant to the Ruronin Kenshin(Samurai X ) artist, so why shouldn't it be that he have some assitants.
Mugiwara Franky 02:07, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
- Bubbles and sound effects are indeed part of the manga. However so are the words in the speech bubbles. This is kinda related to scans. For sometime now, it seems that only scans can be found. I don't know what exactly happened to providing raws, but when dealing with such scanned images, we apparently just upload the image without words. Now without words, a speech bubble is nothing but an obstruction. At most, it doesn't show the original image as it was made by Oda. In fact, its no different than an anime image except with no color and alot of empty bubbles.
- The reason why there was no reflection of which images should be used is because there was actually no need for there to be one. As far anyone was concerned, there really was an unspoken understanding between the community. All the images were treated with similar treatment regardless if they were from the manga or the anime. There was no division. It's only now that people are making the division.
- Its true that in a written document that images are not necessarily needed, however simply agreeing that no images should be used because one type of image is not being used is really silly. That's just selfish I think. It's like saying if I can't have red police cars in a parking lot then no one else can park should there.
- Mugiwara Franky 02:41, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but saying that a manga image will always show more than what text can is really dumb in the context of a wikia. If we were to follow such an ideal then we would really need to change the entire wiki structure to fit to that it. I mean instead of making articles, why not just show entire manga pages like any other online viewing site. Words are useless anyway as Oda's artwork in black and white can explain everything. You don't need words or explanations, you just need pretty pictures.
- Mugiwara Franky 02:53, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
- The splitting and argument of image versions does not solve current image disputes. It just gives people what they want but not what an article needs. It doesn't address anything. It's just a very small but non absolute solution. Its like giving a horrible advice to a pair of siblings who want to use the bathroom for different reasons. The argument is like saying to the siblings "while Jenny is making poo at one side of the toilet, Jeff can pee at the other side of the toilet". Besides that, image arguments still continue even when you split stuff apart, as evidenced in Akainu here and here, and Kizaru here, here, here, here, here, here, and here.
- Mugiwara Franky 03:06, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
- When it comes to any facet of a community, there are some areas where you can't please everybody. This whole "I want to just have manga pics and not anime pics so let's split the pages/images" is one of them. It gives too much workload and is unachievable due to the nature of the situation. Why the hell do people want so much to split a community based on personal preferences on decor? Its stupid and is taking too much of our time.
- Mugiwara Franky 03:14, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
Again, you are deforming what I say in stating that it's just a preference. I'm sorry but manga is image. So when you say that the anime only prevails only in the image department, it prevails in something that is the base of what a manga is. I agree that we give its place to the story, the names and all what Oda has written. Still, there is almost nothing of what Oda has drawn. I don't understand how you can state such an argument is bullshit or a matter of preference. It's like trying to convince me that 1+1=3. I will make a last attempt to make my point then it's up to the community to decide. Let's say that we are a wiki about Chopin. Unfortunatly the only records available at the begining to illustrate his piano music are orchestral versions which contains some variations. The article describes the notations of Chopin direct work and not the variation. What you are telling me, is that we can not introduce some piano record because the orchestra versions have all the instruments and that the notations are sufficient to understand his piano works. I'm sorry, but I disagree with that.
So if you don't want to put manga images in the character appearance section nor in the history and the arc sections. I still consider that it has to be somewhere that you still have to tell me. Kdom 06:37, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, manga is image. But the wikia is both about the manga and the anime. Also saying that there is nothing that Oda has drawn constantly is really tiresome. There are images here that are drawn by Oda and some of them are used more than their anime counterparts cause they fufill the required requirements set by the guidelines. Try looking for God's sake.
- That chopin example is completely different from what is being discussed here. The articles you are supposing are articles about Chopin's music itself so the original has to be noted. The articles that are being discussed here are generally about the characters, they are not about the artwork itself.
- Also, are you looking everywhere and reading everybody's post, cause its really tiresome to repeat what's being repeated.Mugiwara Franky 06:48, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
Would you have updated the charbox pictures if there wasn't this discussion ? My example of Chopin clearly depicts what is the object of this discussion to me and that you clearly don't understand : what place do we give to Oda artwork and manga medium on this wiki ? If this is a wiki about One Piece characters then it's not needed. If it's a wiki about everything then it has to be taken into consideration. From the link you provided, I just can said that we have 2 completely different opinions of what a manga is and how it shall be represented on this wiki. Kdom 09:57, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
- In the early years of the wikia, I would have without some guy complaining that the manga is not being covered fully in the wikia. For Chopin, I indeed really don't understand your example. Your talking about articles of songs not articles of characters. The wikia is indeed about One Piece but the articles themselves are about the characters. There is a big difference. If the articles were about artwork then artwork would be the center of the articles. The articles however are about the characters, for an article like that you have to focus on the character.
- Also, I didn't want to bring this up but since this is really getting heated I have to. Prior to the toggle feature and this whole separation, you Kdom were just as much on the anime band wagon as the rest of us without complaint. My proof, a slight look at the history at [[:File:Sandersonia.JPG]] shows something. I uploaded a good image of Sandersonia from a volume cover. I even reverted an anime version that was not up snuff. However at the end, an anime version eventually replaced it without anything and guess who is the one who did it.
- Seriously, this whole argument is stupid. People are complaining because they don't have enough black and white decor. People are far too focus on the art of a pic than the idea behind a pic. I've been trying to best spend this good forsaken month by doing proper research like showing that Oda colored Robin's eyes blue initially in the manga. And what does the opposition do, waste our time by preaching the manga is not given any precedence in the wikia all because of a few images.Mugiwara Franky 11:43, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
Also many people focus more on Oda's story than the art anyway which is what takes precedence on this wikia. Hell, most One Piece haters don't like it because of the art. SeaTerror 18:50, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
Small note guys, I've think there is at least enough to begin discussiong the guidelines proper here, so see this discussion; Forum:Image Guidelines for more info on how thats going. In the meantime, in the meantime, just continue discussing the images as points risen here will have to be adressed anyway in the other topic. 18.104.22.168 19:09, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
I'm sorry to disappoint you Mugiwara Franky but Sandersonia picture has been uploaded by Styl3z as explained in the comment section and changed by Coldhandzz (Cf ). And I never said I was against anime images, I said that I'm against they systematically replace the manga ones. And I'm sorry but how the character is drawn is as much important as it's history and if most people care about the history (which is still to be proven) that does not mean that some others care about the artwork. And since you claim that the wiki is for everyone, it shall be for these people as well. If you want to be representative of everything that one piece is, the artworks need to be represented, and honnestly the easiest way is to have a few images of the manga. Images that are representative of what a manga is ie not just pictures of covers. I appreciate your effort Mugiwara Franky, but the color of Robin's eyes are far away from what I wanted to discuss here. Kdom 14:15, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
- Yes how a character is drawn is important but where you are complaining at is not the place where artwork is most discussed. The places where pics are most at are the history sections. The history sections talk about history. These sections are to be supplemented by pics that relate to history in relation to the main article whether it be of a character, an arc, or etc. These pics are supposed to show events in as best quality as possible. While the anime artists may once in a while screw up, they sometimes do produce quality work. Also the color they add usually tend to enhance certain scenes.
- The wikia is indeed supposed to represent everything One Piece. However, everything One Piece does not necessarily mean everything like every single manga cell can be included. :*You speak of reverting images to their black and white manga counterparts, well, that could be addressed in separate discussions. However on a global scale as you are proposing, it is way too much.
- You speak of applying toggle to every single pic in an article so that those who want one way can have their way while the other have their way as well. Well, you haven't really address the need of some people who want to see the version they want without constantly flipping a toggle switch for every single article they come across.
- There is also the question of which version should be the one shown first without tweaking if toggle is applied. By what I'm getting from some your opinions, since the manga takes precedence, all sorts of black and white manga pics should be added. However, going by the same logic, the manga pics should be one seen first instead of the anime ones. Making the manga pics only appear after just a click away could be taken by some as the wikia favoring the anime more than the manga. I mean if there can be a person complaining why something as small as decor is usually anime, there can certainly be a person who can complain the manga is always the second set of pics.
- Also, I really do not understand your, I'm not sure, apparent favor in just the black and white pics that Oda draws. Do you really just favor those pics over the colored covers that Oda makes? Are the colored pics by Oda just sugar to you as you say? I mean they are as much as his artwork as the black and white cells.Mugiwara Franky 05:45, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
- You know Kdom, you should also try discussing about the state of the actual Image Guidelines as being proposed by Angel here. You neglected to check ahead if what you were asking before was allowed in relation to the guidelines. Understandable but still against the rules. You best give your opinion now that the guidelines are now being addressed.Mugiwara Franky
I was not much there this week end and this discussion is more important to me than the guidelines so I didn't answer Angel yet but I will.
You know what I found silly ? It's that I'm the first one to ask this issue and that it creates such a debate. If we are a wiki about a manga, is that really silly to ask that the manga appears on this wiki ? From all the place in the world, this is the last one I expected it would make some problem. It's true that I like black and white, (why do you think I have taken Corto Maltese as an avatar). The black and white is a really powerful mean of expression since you are not distracted by the color. But, I'm sorry, Oda drew 56 albums covers in color (I don't take into account the chapter covers since they are not really related to the story) against more than 10000 pages in black and white, so yes, the covers are not the representation of what is One Piece to me. In fact, I have never asked myself the difference of color between the anime and the manga because, to me, the manga is not in color so it's useless to think about them. When I read one piece, I don't see Luffy with a red shirt and a blue pants but I love the huge DON sound effect in the image above. The covers in color are pretty, but they do not represent the manga. In fact, after all this discussion, I think that the bubbles and the sound effects are absolutely needed in manga images because they really represent what this medium is. And I will say it again, but One Piece is not a book, so the text is great but it's not sufficient to explain what a manga is when a few images can do it perfectly. It's great that One Piece is a good story, but it is not just that.
About where do we put the manga images ? Not all of them are in character pages, there are some in the Arc articles. But even in character page, it could be interesting to see Oda design evolution in the history section. Also from what I see of the images used, they are more there to illustrate the story than to show the character in it's best appearance so I'm not really convinced by your point. I could understand it for the char box issue but not here.
Ex from luffy's page
Concerning the toggle, it was an answer to the argument that the page needs to be consistent. I don't necessary feel that way. But that's not to me to decide. Kdom 18:42, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, your explanation about why you prefer black and white images is really kinda sounds like personal preference. I don't blame you for it. However, not everybody shares your sentiment that the black and white images are the representation of One Piece. It's part of the reason why people switch manga pics for colored ones since they see that it best represents the particular scene.
- Your response about text in general is really indeed a bit going against what the wikia is about. One Piece is without a doubt a story that is indeed told via pictures. However, that does not justify that its full explanation should rely solely on pictures. When you search for a summary of movie, do you look at pics of the movie to get the summary or do you look for text that tells you about the movie? Truth is, pics are nice to look at, but without some written explanation next to them, all sorts of interpretation can be created that may not be the main idea.
- As to your comment that One Piece is not book, please note a manga is simply just pics. From a lot of situations within the manga, it shows that Oda has an idea of where he wants to go with One Piece. That idea is not just simply drawn right away but planned carefully, usually with a lot of words. What I mean is that in creating a story, whether it be a rough draft of a book or a script of a movie, words are pretty much an integral part in the creation of any kind of story be it written or visual. Lets face it, do you honestly believe that Oda keeps all his ideas in his head and not in a notebook of some sort?
- The pics in the history do illustrate the story and that's where their focus has to be. While it would pretty if they were all black and white, their focus needs to be on the story and they have to illustrate that well. That often requires color in most cases. While the story may indeed be black and white to you and others, its not especially to those who base on things such as Oda's covers and the anime. The truth is, we live in a colored world and a great number of people interpret most stories in color. Even Oda does as evident in his covers.Mugiwara Franky 04:00, September 14, 2010 (UTC)
For the 1000000000000th time black and white preference is not my main point for having manga pictures. My main point is that this wiki does not display what a manga is. And I'm really amazed by what you write. Is it really what you think ? Do you really think that Oda would have drawn those 59 volumes if he only wanted to tell a story ! Obviously he has enjoyed drawing them, obviously he has enjoyed inventing his crazy animals and give them forms. Obviously one does not spend 10 years of his life as a mangaka if one does not like drawing. Also it's your opinion that Oda thinks in color, but would he have made the Robin color eyes mistake if he really think in color. The truth is that mangaka have other mean than color to display the feelings of their characters and their imagination and that this wiki show none of them.
And, contrary to you, I give as much place to color than to black and white. I have made myself an album with all the color spread of One Piece. That's also why I have put them together in a single category on this wiki. But contrary to you, I'm also able to recognize when a black and white drawing is good and it does not need color. So I'm tired to see you stating that it's my preference when I shall be the one complaining that the replacement of manga by anime is obviously yours. Kdom 18:18, September 14, 2010 (UTC)
- I did not say that Oda does not enjoy drawing. I merely stated that he most likely uses at least some form of written organization to plan things out. I'm not sure where this is going, but One Piece is a story which is being told via pics.
- My opinion about Oda thinking in colors, yeah that's my opinion. However I made that opinion based on the various colored images he made. I also made it on statements from the manga like the part where somebody mentions Marco's flames is blue.
- I keep interpreting your statements about black and white being your preference because it really does sound like preference. Statements like "When I read one piece, I don't see Luffy with a red shirt and a blue pants but I love the huge DON sound effect in the image above" will be interpreted by anyone as being preference.
- This discussion is going no where. All we're doing now is pointing at each other.Mugiwara Franky 05:48, September 15, 2010 (UTC)
Of course it looks like it's my preference since you asked me what was my preference and I honnestly answered. I'm still speechless that you used it as a counter argument. If I take your example of the movie since you don't like my example of the music : Critics indeed use text, but I don't know any review that don't use pics to explain what is the style of the movie you are going to see. I'm sorry but a picture of a Tim Burton movie will tell you a lot about his movies without having to read the entire synopsis. The synopsis is nice, but the picture + the synopsis is better.
If someone starts to make a 3D version of One Piece, shall we revert all the images of the manga and the anime into 3D because we live in a 3D world. That is just crazy. If manga was in color, my point wouldn't change, I still would need manga and anime pics because a comic, even in color, is not the same medium as an anime.
Also may I add that your arguments about quality and guidelines are much weaker when a picture such as this one is uploaded. I supposed that the guidelines stated that anime shall be of better quality than the manga ? Do our opinion also diverge that much on what quality means ? Kdom 20:19, September 15, 2010 (UTC)
- As much as pics are great, they can only go so far. Also I believe you are confusing a review and an online encyclopedia article. Take an example of Coraline found in wikipedia and Imdb. The wikipedia entry, whose basic form the wikia is trying to emulate, has only two pics but it explains a great deal about the movie. The imdb entry has a lot of pics in one place but doesn't explain the movie via plot in detail in that place. The place where the actual review happens on the other hand has a lot of text explaining the movie but no pics. True, Imdb's review system doesn't allow pics as far as I know but the point about the movie is there. So yeah, even in both cases, it's the words that dominate the explanation of the movie. A pic can tell a thousand words but only words themselves can explain the pic especially in an encyclopedic environment.
- As for your music example, even an article about that would naturally be dominated by words. If you gonna make such an article, it's not enough if you place just a music sheet of a song or even a recording of the original version of the music, you are gonna have to explain the music in words. You have to explain the history, development, and what not about it. All of that can be achieved with little to no pics.
- Changing to color is one thing, changing to 3D or even live action is a completely different matter. With color, regardless of what may, it normally enhances a scene and makes things clear. With 3D, while it looks nice, it however is too drastic of a change in artstyle cause let's face it, many 2D concepts don't translate well in the realm of 3D.
- If the manga was in color, we wouldn't have this argument. However, it isn't and it's not because of author artstyle or anything like that. The truth is that because of differences between eastern and western comic ethics and prices, manga artists don't have the luxury of their works being fully colored like their western counterparts. So yeah, the reason why Oda has done most of his story in black and white really shouldn't be assumed as an artist preference but more of a cultural thing.
- That pic is not of the anime but of a game trailer done in the style of the anime. While it brings another piece into the mess, it however is a proper colored equivalent of what is shown in the manga. Better than the anime I may add. The only problem with it is finding a better quality version of it.Mugiwara Franky 05:00, September 16, 2010 (UTC)
Well I can see that according to your preference the guidelines can be followed strictly or not so strictly. But since you only see the picture as decor to one piece story, I won't discuss any longer for nothing. Like Angel asked me, I will sum up my opinion then it is up to the community to decide.
What shall be the place of the pictures on the wiki ? Are in this wiki, the arc and character articles only about the story and the pictures only a decor for this story or are they articles about a manga and an anime, ie something which is not only a story but also a graphic medium. Instead of seing them as just a decor, can't we give the images some encyclopedic purpose by showing the different graphic characteristics of a manga and an anime as well as the different artists (in particlular Oda) art styles.
The first solution is more simple but focus the wiki on the story and the anime (on a visual point of view). The second is more complete but require a regular discussion on the images that shall be upload. Kdom 11:53, September 18, 2010 (UTC)