| Hey! Let's talk this out!
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Well, hi. I really hate to be that guy and I know that many people will not like this forum but it's something that must be done. To go on topic, I have noticed that many people with user rights have gone inactive for a long period of time or simply don't use their rights. Before saying more i have to make two clarifications. First, I'm not talking about users that go inactive temporarily because, since it's summer, people should go inactive in order to relax and all. Second clarification: I'm not talking about admins. This forum is aimed to rollbacks and chat moderators. And no, I'm not making this to whore myself if that's what you think. I just believe that inactive people shouldn't have rights while some other, active people could use them way better than these people do.
About the inactive rollbacks, in Special:ListUsers/rollback you can see that many rollbacks, that are supposed to edit regularly, haven't edited for a long period of time and even if they have, if you check their contributions you'll see that most of them rarely or never use their rights. But there are active users that could have the rights instead and make a way better use of them.
About mods, first of all editing has nothing to do with modership. After making this clear, I'd also like to mention that we don't not need any more chat moderators, not at the moment at least. Anyway, back to the purpose of this forum, even thought most mods get in chat daily and don't let spam or vandalism happen, some of them never join. And that's bad because we cannot rely on them if one of the active mods goes inactive temporarily or permanently. And anyway I don't get why people that never join the chat should have chat moderator status.
Please tell me your opinion and don't hate me for making this forum. If I didn't do it, nobody would. Thanks.18:17, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
I don't know about rollbacks, but I do know Kuro and Ryu are rarely on chat these days. It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 18:18, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
If it ain't broken, don't fix it. If it's not harming anything, don't complain about it.18:21, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
Then what's the point of them having the rights, if their not going to use them or not bothering to fullfill their comitment?18:38, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
Exactly. It may not be broken, but it's not being used, to extend the metaphor. There are more active users who would be more useful with rollback or mod rights than some of those who currently have them. It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 18:54, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
"If it ain't broken, don't fix it". It is broken. Since inactive people have these rights, active ones that could do a way better usage of them can't have them. And as a bureaucrat, it is pretty much your responsibility to fix this. Why do you need a mod that never joins the chat? To say that you have many? Then give his rights to some other person that will actually use them. Why do you need a rollback that never reverts edits or renames images instead of giving the rights to someone that will do both daily? Half of our rollbacks and at lest two mods shouldn't have rights.20:00, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
Personally, whether or not they're demoted wouldn't affect the wiki much, but the appointment of active mods would definitely be better to keep chat in line when there aren't any active mods to do so. As for rollbacks, if new ones or replacements are needed, then I'm all for it.23:10, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
First off staw, when you said "we don't not need anymore mods" did you mean "we don't need anymore mods" because we dont need more mods. second off, i wholeheartedly agree that we should definitely cut down about half of our mods, as i've noticed that though most of them have been editing recently, only you (Staw-Hat Luffy), Galaxy9000, Justsomedude... and Besty17 have been really active and using your rollback powers. As for the chat moderators i think we should also cut down 3 or 4 of them, though i am not always on chat and i don't really know which mods are the most active so i cant really suggest which ones should be cut. Finally i think no new mods or rollbacks should be appointed to replace the ones we may or may not demote, unless a need arises for more mods or rollbacks.--23:52, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
First of all, even if we demote mods, I certainly doubt that we need to replace them, not right now at least. The chat might be modless now but once panda is back it will be back to normal. Although, the same doesn't apply to rollbacks. As a fellow rollback I honestly like seeing people getting this right because that means that more people are willing to edit a lot and more people are willing to edit regularly. And especially now that we have additional rights, we really shouldn't make it too hard to get rollback cause if that happens, nobody will request it. The way we do it now which is getting it by telling a bureaucrat and letting him decide is just fine.
Anyway, back to the topic of the forum, I'm not suggesting demoting people especially when they are active. Out of the mods, only two of them are inactive and out of the rollbacks, half of them are. But I'm not saying that a bureaucrat should go ahead and demote them. Not the semi active ones at least. When it comes to people like PX that hasn't logged in since April 3, then yes I don't see a reason why we should keep him as a rollback or why we should give him a warning first since he obviously doesn't care or when it comes to mods that join the chat once every month or so, then yes I don't see a reason why we should warn them before demoting them. Because that will do nothing since they will promise to become active and will probably be active for a couple of weeks or so but they will eventually go inactive again. I've seen that before. But of course, is somebody does prove me wrong, I'll be glad to see him back and I won't ask for his demotion as long as he is active enough.
I know that everyone has a life, I know that everyone wants to spent time with his friends and family, I know that everyone wants to relax and I know that now that school starts again, most users will not be as active as they used to be, including myself of course. But you should realize that and if you believe that you will be busy with real life and will not have much time left to fulfill your duties or if you are simply uninterested, please do say it. Once you are active again, believe me, we'll be glad to give you your rights back.04:06, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
First off, I'd disagree that Ryu and Kuro are never in chat. I've seen them several times in the past couple weeks. I do not believe any of our chat moderators are inactive.
Secondly, I believe there is no harm in letting inactive users retain rollback rights. The reason is because the basic purpose of the right (quickly combating vandalism) is not very special. All it does is allow for quicker undoing of edits. It is very difficult for a user to misuse rollback rights. (I sincerely doubt anyone could misuse the image renaming privilege) And if for any reason a rollback is misused, a regular editor may undo the rollback. The reasons we worry about things like inactive admins are that 1) we worry that the work that needs to be done by them is not getting completed, or 2) we worry that a returning inactive admin may be ignorant of changed rules and policies. However, as far as rollbacks are concerned, vandalism never changes. So if there are enough rollbacks to handle the regular vandalism, we should not be concerned with the amount of rollback users. If a user is inactive for 6 months, comes back on a whim and checks the wiki activity and finds there's been vandalism at a time when no other admins or rollbacks are on, that's a great situation and isn't harmful at all. Rollback users are given their rights because they have proven to be trustworthy, and unless that trust is somehow broken (inactivity does not break that trust in my mind) they should keep their rights.
That being said, if a rollback user knows they aren't active enough to be using their rights, I would strongly encourage them to give them up, as well as recommend another user who could be trusted who should be given the rights. I did that once, and I was given rollback rights again at a time when I could use them effectively once more. Also, if anyone does read this and decide to give up rights, I've always though User:Zodiaque would be a great rollback user, because he is in a very different timezone from most of our rollbacks, and is a very high quality editor. Way back when rollbacks were first appointed, I was going to nominate him for the job, but he went inactive for some time then. Talk | 13:08, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
I disagree with you. Having rights is not a matter of trust or what. By your logic, we also trust MF, Angel, Tipota and everyone else that helped build the wiki. Why don't you give them rights? Why did we demote the inactive bureaucrats? Cause they are inactive! If you think that having rights is a matter of trust, you are totally wrong. Trust is important, yes. But the only factor? No, no. Activity is just as important as trust. For instance, you can't give mod rights to a user that you know will abuse it no matter how many hours he spends on chat per day but you can't give them to people that never join the chat either. All the people with rights did deserve them when they took them, that's not doubtful. But they don't deserve them anymore. If somebody goes inactive temporarily of course he will not lose his rights. But when somebody goes inactive for months and months without notifying the community or something, he really deserves demotion. The fact that he "might" come back doesn't mean that he should keep his rights. We are an active community and if you want it to work properly, inactive people must not hold back the wiki.
What I said above about rollback users applies to mods as well. But right now we don't have many inactive mods. Two months ago half of them were inactive. Now, even Kuro has started to join the chat daily again and if he keeps doing that, of course he should keep his mod position. Right now, the only really inactive mod imo is Ruy. Joining the chat every two or three weeks and staying for less than ten minutes isn't considered active. If Ruy changes and starts being active again, then I don't mind him keeping his rights. But if not, demotion is unavoidable.13:37, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
Anyway, I believe that it's time to make things more personal so I'll tell you my opinion on every mod and rollback and if I believe he should be demoted or not. I'll start with the rollbacks since I am one.
- Me, Staw-Hat Luffy:If you look at my contributions you will see that i probably have reverted more edits than any other rollback since May 15, when I got my rights. In addition, I have renamed tons of images using rollbacks' additional rights which I introduced. Therefore, I believe that I should not be demoted as I am probably the one that uses his powers the most.
- Besty17:Even though he is our newest rollback addition, he has used his rollback rights to revert many edits and he has renamed hundreds of images despite having rollback for less than two weeks. That said, I believe that Besty should also keep his rights.
- Jademing:She has her rights for about a year and even though she might not revert edits daily, she fixes whatever she sees plus she has renamed tons of images also. So I say let her keep her rights as well.
- JustSomeDude...:Despite the fact that he hasn't used his rollback to rename images yet, he is a user that regularly uses his power to revert edits so i say let him keep it.
- Galaxy9000:Also one of the newest additions and also one of the most active ones. Leave his rights.
- Calua:Calu is a semi active editor but by looking at her contributions I see that she rarely uses her rollback. I am fine with letting her keep it as long as she doesn't go inactive but if you want to demote her, I don't care either.
- Uknownada:Even though nada has his rollback rights for months, he hasn't reverted more than ten edits and all of them were reverted when he was temp admin. Plus the last two months he is inactive and he only randomly comes back, makes an edit and leaves again. I believe that he should be demoted.
- WonderfulUnicorn:Pretty much like nada, WU has had his rights for quit some time but he hasn't used it more than 10 times. Plus he hasn't edited since August 27.
- Pacifista15:Inactive since April 3, nothing else to say here. I support demotion.
Now, about the mods, I won't make reviews of them like i did with rollbacks because everyone that joins the chat regularly knows that right now the only inactive mods are Ruy and Kuro. But Kuro has started to be active again as he joins the chat daily and if he is willing to stay active, I don't support demotion. On the other hand, I can tell that ever since I joined the wiki, I haven't seen Ruy in chat more than 15 times and whenever he joins, he leaves immediately. That's not a mod's attitude. I fully support demotion here.
Please remember that this is my opinion and if you disagree with something, please do not hesitate to say it.17:09, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
I think the minimum threshold for reverting a user's rights should be two months inactivity with no reason given for the lapse. And I've seen Ryu in chat more than Kuro - it depends on time zones. It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 17:12, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
Just commenting to say that I fully agree with Staw-Hat Luffy. Inactive users shouldn't retain their rights just because they're "trustworthy" etc. And I disagree with Nova, there should not be a minimum threshold. If there was, the inactive users could simply pop in every two months and then continue their inactivity. Awaikage Talk 17:43, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
Totally agree with Kage.17:45, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
I guess that's a good point. I'll concede that. It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 17:48, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
"We are an active community and if you want it to work properly, inactive people must not hold back the wiki." -Staw
And how exactly do inactive rollbackers "hold back the wiki" if there are sufficient active rollbackers? If the work is getting done, I don't see how they are harmful.
By my count, you suggest keeping 6 active rollbackers, though most of the rollbacking work is done by more active rollbackers like yourself. Seems to me like the work is really only covered by 3 or 4 rollbackers. So what do you think of the rollbackers who are active, but not necessarily sharing in the workload? Are they also "holding the wiki back"? Or is it possible that rollbacking is such a trivial thing that it doesn't matter if people who don't use it (or don't use it enough) have the right?
I personally think rollbacking rights are an incredibly trivial right and it doesn't matter who has them. It's a very different issue from Admins or Mods, which is why unlike them, rollbacks rights are given out like candy to any decent editor who asks an admin. The fact that we don't elect rollbacks shows how much more trivial and useless the right really is. Don't make a big fuss about it, because it's not worth the effort. And to anyone reading this forum who has even the slightest thought in their head that if we demote some rollbackers, they might just get rollbacking rights: The workload is being covered sufficiently and there will not be any new rollbackers needed. It's not a big deal to have the right, and there is no authority gained by having the position. Talk | 18:04, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
If you consider rollback a useless right, go demote yourself.18:08, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
You've missed my point. My point is that rollbacking isn't nearly as important to the survival of the wiki as Administrating or Moderating. And since it's not that important, it doesn't matter if inactive users have the right or not. If there aren't enough active rollbackers, promote more. But there is no good reason to demote the inactive one. And please respond to my question Staw: How exactly do inactive rollbackers "hold back the wiki" if there are sufficient active rollbackers? Talk | 18:16, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
I have already answered your question with my above posts. Give their rights to other people or promote the entire wiki. And rollbacks are way more important to the wiki than moderators because imo the chat is different than the rest of the wiki.18:22, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
Is the workload being covered? To it seems as me, Staw & Jade. Revert vandilism then get around to spending mintues or even hours, renaming files and then making sure we try to get all of pages those files belong to. Theirs always more work being stacked up for us, who go out our away to make difference. So it isn't exactly being covered when other rollbacks don't pull their own weight, or don't even bother to make a difference. Montouring for activity, is more important than a chat. A chat room won't effect if a user vadlises a page or not. Rollback is the second must important role a can user can have, you of all people JSD should know this.18:36, September 11, 2013 (UTC)