There are two major inconsistencies within this entire Wikia that I must address and ask everyone to help resolve. There might have been other forums out there that went for these problems in the past, but I saw no change regardless, so I hope that this one will do the trick.
Using Macrons and Breves (ū and ō instead of ou and uu)
Now I know that we use uu and ou instead of the ū and ō, due to the difficulty in getting those in the first place. But, in the page names, some page use macrons, while others just uses an "u" to extend the vowel, while some just skip both the macron and the extension "u". Here's a (partial) list of such things:
|uu, ou, etc.|| ū, ō, etc.
||u, o, etc.|
They should all follow the same flow, with either all macrons, all using u as extension, or ignore all such altogether (at least until the databooks come out and confirm).
Japanese vs. English Naming
Yes, we agreed to name the pages as the original Japanese, but some pages goes against that, they are in English despite having an original Japanese name. Here's a list of examples:
|Remaining in Japanese||Transliterated into English|
So Do Something
Please make some comments and eventually, we can vote. Yatanogarasu 23:19, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
- I know with cat claws, there was no Japanese version ready to use, thus "Cat claws" the subbed name had to be used at the time. It also made for easier look up. Also, this is VERY early in the wikias history. Some things stayed just because no one raised the problem. I believe Peacock slashers was the same. We had to use SOMETHING, so english was the only way forward (at the time) and in many cases, translators just didn't supply us with the same odd Japanese notes they do now, or the raws didn't explain too much. Basically, since the wikia set up shop, the fandoms become a lot more nerdy and info ready then it used to be. Lol.
- Its the same with the double uu or ou and so forth. Thats how things were done at the time, and I STILL prefer it because of the difficulty getting the special characters for the little "u"'s.
- In cases like the fishmen, it was the intended translation we used because "Mermen" and "Fishmen" had this HUGE problem within the fandom, people once upon a time couldn't tell them apart. For the first 2 years of the wikias history we had to explain all sorts of problems like this. Then when "Fishmen Karate" was done it was made to match the name that we already had in use "Fishmen". We didn't really explain what we were doing, but some things were done for a reason. One-Winged Hawk 23:41, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
- Also, we had to deal with the early wikia curse left over from the 4Kids days, when some things transferred from wikipedia got stuck in one or another. Its like as I explained with "Marine". Its not actually meant to be "Marine", its "Navy", but we were sick of being forced to use the 4Kids translations at the time. "Marine" is just another word for "Navy", as the page explains. But if you change the page to what its SUPPOSE to say, the stink the fandom kicked up about us using Navy was hiderous! "Oh their using the 4Kids translation how **** ios that!". Remember, when the wikia went over, 4Kids were STILL dubbing, it was only after we were here for a year or so they quit it. ¬_¬'
- Basically, some of these things just haven't been changed for one reason or another, I could explain about this all day, but imagine what we were present with THEN and what we've got NOW. Basically, the fandom and information supplied has slowly changed and shifted from one thing to the other. Heck, when half our pages were set up and had to deal with the MS site, which no longer exist thankfully, it was full of bad translations and incorrect names ("Bagi" instead of "Buggy"). No fault of the site, but most of the early translations were LQ and done before most of the names for One Piece got revealed. One-Winged Hawk 23:48, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
Oh, wow ok. So the fact of the matter is I don't really care about the Macrons and Breves, so long as I can actually read the words. I'll just go with whatever the majority decides for that. On the naming topic, I agree consistency is the way to go here and we just change things to the Japanese titles, since as mentioned, it was already decided to do so a while back. --YazzyDream 03:30, January 10, 2011 (UTC)
I don't really care about the names (except Shichibukai of course) the bigger thing is double uu's. I personally think everything should be done with the double uu's.
http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Names_with_long_vowels I know you remember that because you participated in it a lot. The majority wanted double uu's. SeaTerror 22:22, January 10, 2011 (UTC)
- To be accurate, that discussion didn't resolve anything. Many of the regular editors were missing and not even an official voting process happened. The thing is we haven't done everything yet to solve this problem. MasterDeva 10:00, January 11, 2011 (UTC)
Double uu is always the best way to do things though. Even if ū, ō is more correct it looks uglier than the double uu way. SeaTerror 16:06, January 11, 2011 (UTC)
- I'll have to completely disagree with this and I'll explain the reason why. Using macrons is the professional way to present articles with double vowels and it's the way professional encyclopedias work. That is how Japanese texts are translated for the English language and that applies for various subjects found in Japanese language, fictional (such as the One Piece manga) or not.
- Furthermore saying that "it looks uglier" is a weak claim to support your decision. Since we are a wikia that strives for professionalism when we are editing articles and we want to display that with our work! It would only be natural to use macrons on the present names with double vowels. If we were just another fun site I wouldn't have mentioned this and I would support the use of the double vowels, alas that is no the situation we have in our hands. MasterDeva 17:43, January 11, 2011 (UTC)
This is not Wikipedia nor should it be like Wikipedia. It doesn't matter what encyclopedias use. This is still a fan site more than it will ever be a "professional" site. Double vowels look better. This site also has fansub sections and uses fansub/scanlation titles for everything. I have never seen any fansub/scanlation use macrons. If this site was supposed to be a professional site then only the English releases would be used for anything. SeaTerror 19:03, January 11, 2011 (UTC)
- Don't try to twist my words SeaTerror! I never mentioned Wikipedia nor I had it in mind when I was talking about encyclopedias, there are books too you know. You've also dodged what I mentioned about the English translations of Japanese texts too. I'm well aware that we use don't use "official" English translations from Viz or Funimation but that's besides the point also. Scanlations and fansubs make also grammar and syntax mistakes but we try to avoid them when we use translations from them and not copy them word for word.
- What I said is that we try to do give a form in this wiki that is as close to professional as possible being a fan site but an encyclopedia as well. To your knowledge that's not just an opinion but it is something that has been expressed by One-Winged Hawk (aka Angel Emfrbl) AND Mugiwara Franky who are both senior members and contributors to this wikia from the early days. You should consider it from that point of view too. MasterDeva 19:41, January 11, 2011 (UTC)
"Professionals" either use macrons or cut it completely out. For instance, using Ryuma instead of Ryuuma. In fact, I have never seen an official release use macrons for their subtitles.
You missed the point completely. If this was supposed to as close to as professional as possible then this Wikia would ONLY use official English spellings. Instead most everything is either left untranslated or use fansub/scanlation spellings. Such as Pappagu instead of Pappug. Double vowels are always better. If this site was going to use macrons then it would have used them years ago. SeaTerror 20:27, January 11, 2011 (UTC)
- How many times do I have to say think first before you act in order for you to consider it SeaTerror? In addition, you should rethink the use of quotations on professionals in your writing because you're making a blunder! Real translators use either macrons or double vowels, using Ryuma instead of Ryuuma as noted in your example is a MISTRANSLATION. Period. This wikia's purpose of using fansubs/scanlations came from the days when 4Kids was still running and Wikipedia allowed info from the dub (or anime in general) to be added to their One Piece articles as cannon.
- Article accuracy was something that the "official" translations didn't provide and was one of the reasons this wiki was expanded upon (along with some negative feeling for 4Kids). Scanlations were ahead of the volume releases so they became a source for content, the other one being fansubs for episodes. This continues to be the case because Funimation's translations "tend to slip" here and then in their subtitles and other sources tend to be more literal though not without their own mistakes. Although it has become more of a users trend to use those particular sources that does not change anything I've said about the intention on a professional look for this site.
- Lastly what you've said in the end about macrons, "it would have used them years ago" is just a moot point and not well though one at that. The same argument you used can be said about the Japanese vs. English naming that has gone on here since the beginning of this project. The reason for both of them staying as they are is quite simple. Editors were busy dealing with other things and a decision wasn't made about either until this day. Maybe one of these days that will change too. That's pretty much it. MasterDeva 21:39, January 11, 2011 (UTC)
You're 100% wrong. Using double vowels/macrons/one vowel are ALL ways of translating. So calling it a mistranslation is incredibly ignorant. Also you're wrong about real translators. Go watch a release on Crunchyroll they would never use double vowels. Also it just isn't this Wikia. Most Wikias use fansub/original terms. Double vowels are still better for this wikia. SeaTerror 21:58, January 11, 2011 (UTC)
- Being headstrong won't help you solve any argument especially if you avoid them completely, I'm beginning to sound like a broken record...! Crunchyroll has received its fair of criticism over their translations, which is another reason why people have followed through the releases from fansubbing groups. It wasn't always like that for Crunchyroll but that's another story. You have stated your opinion clearly, "macrons look ugly", you've made your point SeaTerror. MasterDeva 22:08, January 11, 2011 (UTC)
Well, may I say: first, let's ignore everything about 4Kids, their edits are worth squat. I mean, "Marshall D. Teech", "Ward Newgate", WTF?! Their dubbing has practically ruined the series' good image. And then, about macrons, other wikias, such as Narutopedia, uses ū, ō and etc. So shouldn't we follow suit, and not make ourselves look bad by using these instead of extending everything with an "u"? Now, I know, this wikia is this wikia, and others are others, but we should take others for examples and improve from thereon. We could just create a template with these letters and put it in MediaWiki:Edittools, so we have easier access to them. And how are we gonna deal with the Japanese/English inconsistencies? Yatanogarasu 00:49, January 12, 2011 (UTC)
- Besides, if we do NOT use macrons, then we really should convert [[Santōryū]], Kāshī, and such back to the double u and whatnot. Yatanogarasu 00:51, January 12, 2011 (UTC)
- You make an excellent point that has been mentioned some time ago by Tipota when we were dealing with those same problems. The truth is that I've though of adding macrons to MediaWiki:Edittools but I didn't mention it at that time, a big mistake from my side that I am ashamed to admit. Maybe things would have been different if I had... I was ready, to mention Narutopedia as an example if someone asked about this change actually working or not too. Mentioning that we are our own wikia complete with our rules that separates us from the others was good; because you've given me an opportunity to talk about something.
- In the past when stub templates were placed in articles, they were usually put before the navigational template because that was the way they were placed in "most wikias" at the time. The way discussion headed came to include as well the usage of the Navigation heading in articles that weren't as big as Luffy's (as an example). Short articles didn't actually need the heading because the navigational template was visible. To make a long story short, things ended up with a 'navigation section' following each template used as such and stub template being placed in the bottom of the page which has become a routine for us now. Furthermore navigational headings were create to separate the arc templates from the navigational ones.
- In other words, the point is that we shouldn't copy what others do just because they're doing it nor be scared of innovation when we try something new. Using macrons will be a good thing for the One Peice wikia and will help us solve part of the naming problems we face in our site. I'll discuss about the Japanese/English inconsistencies some time later because I feel a little bit tired. MasterDeva 02:29, January 12, 2011 (UTC)
- Alright, I read all of the above, and while there are still things unclear to me... I will give my opinion where I can.
- First, the English vs Japanese topic. I prefer the Japanese versions, like shichibukai instead of warlords of the sea, or shigan instead of finger gun. It just feels closer to the original.
- Second, the ū vs uu thing. I'm honest, I have no idea which way is closer to the original and MasterDeva/Seaterror sound both very convincing. I agree that we should not just pick one form because others do so (by that logic we can change the whole wikia). But whatever is chosen, it should be consistent.Jinbe 16:57, January 12, 2011 (UTC)
- To make my example a little more understandable, we [as a wikia] shouldn't copy what others [other wikias] do just for the sake of it BUT not scared to innovate using an idea that's out of the box [doesn't follow what came to be perceived as stereotypical].
- From what I am aware of, most wikias based on manga or anime series (maybe both) do not use macrons, which automatically makes what Narutopedia has done as an innovation. They tried it and they have made it work, with things running along smoothly by the time I'm writing this. That alone is proof that they succeeded in converting ALL THEIR ARTICLES into the new format, not to mention that they have a greater number or articles in comparison with us! They also have disabled by default the user blogs (the word Narutards explains it all) meaning that their article count is closer to real articles than us!!
- I haven't made a full decision about the Japanese/English inconsistencies so I'll wait to hear the opinions of the other editors. I'm weighing more on using mostly the Japanese names. Maybe we'll keep the English names too if they were provided from the manga, the databooks or some other usable source(?), of course terms that were English romanizations such as Colors Trap are acceptable. That's just an early draft of how I'm thinking a possible solution would be like.
- Μany editors, past and present, have made clear that consistency is the way to go so this is something that I believe all of us have in common. Naturally, articles that contain their own peculiarities will always exist too so a global decision might not be a solution to those issues. Dealing with them individually (according to their own separate case) shouldn't be too difficult though. MasterDeva 18:11, January 12, 2011 (UTC)
So basically, we should convert everything to the same trend, for consistency sakes. Also, is it true that this site is going down the dumps, with Mugiwara Franky leaving and so many other people not helping anymore? Yatanogarasu 07:46, January 13, 2011 (UTC)
The only major wikia that has used macrons from the start was the Bleach Wikia. Narutopedia use to have names the way English companies have them. I support 100% converting everything to double vowels if you want consistency. SeaTerror 17:03, January 13, 2011 (UTC)
- Mugiwara Franky's focus, for now, is the new site for reasons stated before that doesn't mean he won't contribute here any more! This site will continue to stay because according to Wikia's guidelines we can't remove it ourselves. As for Narutopedia not using macrons from the beginning is pretty much clear from someone who's read the messages so far, stating the obvious is pointless... We have two wikis (that concern us because of similarities with us) who use macrons.
- The first one (Bleach wikia) chose to use them from the get go while the second one (Narutopedia) converted to some time later after their creation. What interests us more is the second one since, we are in the middle of a transition and Narutopedia is a good example of that, being in the same situation as we are, the choice they've made ended up in success. What they used to have in the past is irrelevant. We desire consistency for the articles within this wiki, what English companies use is of no direct concern to us! Being consistent means to use the same form, or characteristics among related aspects to achieve a sense of harmony, unity and compatibility.
- Switching to only one format and sticking to it will bring all that and solve our problem with name inconsistencies. Examples that display the successful use of macrons have been given and portrayed. There is no reason to favor more the usage of the double vowels than that of the macrons. MasterDeva 19:38, January 13, 2011 (UTC)
"Will still provide admin services here if needed however may completely leave altogether." His userpage says otherwise. You also can't use what other wikias have changed to for various reasons. Not every wikia's format can be agreed upon. The Narutopedia always uses official English spellings. Also your words are easily reversible. There is no reason to favor more the usage of the macrons than that of the double vowels. SeaTerror 21:05, January 13, 2011 (UTC)
- And yet again you didn't bother to check the facts. I said "Mugiwara Franky's focus, for now, is the new site for reasons stated before that doesn't mean he won't contribute here any more", that means that he may occasionally come here to contribute, his list of contributions clearly shows that he has made edits after he wrote that message in his user page! His main focus is the other site but he hasn't given up on this one yet.
- We are here to agree upon a format for us to use which is exactly that. The fact that Narutopedia uses "official" English spellings has nothing to do with this conversation. Furthermore, my last sentence is in response to your "I support 100% converting everything to double vowels if you want consistency" and I intentionally wrote it that way. You seemed to "imply" that the only way for consistency is to use double vowels which I refuted. MasterDeva 22:30, January 13, 2011 (UTC)
And you're the one who wants macrons 100%. Nice try with that bullshit. SeaTerror 23:01, January 13, 2011 (UTC)
- Oh no you won't. Apologise immediately and properly for your behavior SeaTerror! Unlike you I used argumentation, examples and facts to support something without trying to use 'personal opinion' because "macrons are ugly" and "bullshit" like you did!! If you can't behave properly then leave and come back when you've learnt some manners, NOT before!! MasterDeva 23:43, January 13, 2011 (UTC)
Okay, we vented out our anger, now let's act like civilized editors. Anyway, if we convert, and not use macrons, can we do it like without using the "u" extension, because based on the fourth databook, Oda officially spelled out "Kaido", without the "u" (Kaidou). Therefore, we really should follow his example here, like: Sentomaru, Hyozo, Shusui, etc. Yatanogarasu 03:31, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
- Some people wouldn't be able to act civilized even if their live depended on it... I've mentioned what you said in my posts above, Yatanogarasu, in regards to that. If we have a source directly from the manga, the databooks or something else legitimate we are given something directly in English. However I may have done a goof here because I didn't think of a small but very important detail, consistency, again.
- If we are to be consistent with the name format we are going to follow, it means that we'll have to do it thoroughly. Either use double vowels (so Kaido becomes Kaidou again) or macrons (Kaido becomes Kaidō). This is a dilemma because up until now we followed blindly the English spellings provided so far by the manga/databooks! Oda, like most mangaka (or to be precise the employers working with him), uses the wāpuro rōmaji romanization which is close to what we have now.
- However, name pronunciation is somewhat changed using this kind of romanization I mentioned above. That would mean that certain names will sound different from the anime version because that's not what they use. This gives rise to a new problem. If we use the macrons which is more common, professional and standardized we automatically become consistent with the anime too. That could be said to a lesser extent for the double vowels (used primarily by fan related work, unprofessional). Wāpuro rōmaji on the other hand seems fairly at a disadvantage in comparison!
- As you can see, it's not an easy choice to make without doing first some thinking behind it. It is more about taking decisions. Technically speaking, anything we choose is "correct" but that's only technically speaking and without taking in account everything else. MasterDeva 05:09, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
Yes, but since "Kaido" is official, then we should use it as a base, and everything be converted to follow it, just like Klobis changing Hyouzou to Hyozo. Thanks to him, by the way. Yatanogarasu 05:19, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
That's just how one name was spelled. It would be better off adding a hidden note on Kaido's article explaining it and keeping the u's for the other names. Just because one name is like that doesn't mean all of the names would be like that. SeaTerror 05:56, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
- Consistency, that's what we're talking about. If one is like that, then ALL should follow, UNTIL Oda gives prove otherwise. Yatanogarasu 06:08, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
Then you already know how I would vote. SeaTerror 06:09, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
- SeaTerror makes a valid point. You still owe me an apology by the way, I won't let it slide that easily! Kaido is no more official than Kaidou or Kaidō, that will depend on our decision on which name format we'll use. That's just the way it is with romanization. Just because his name was written like that it doesn't mean it's the de facto way for all of them.
- Another issue would be the databook's credibility. While all databooks contain information that was written there by the author, the material itself isn't a 100% work by the mangaka himself! We've encountered some name consistency problems, specifically Dorry (Dorey) & Brogy (Burogy), with the latest being Big Mam (Big Mom). It wouldn't be wise to assume so early what spelling is used for everything when we know so little to begin with. Next thing we know we'll use speculation as fact and create more problems than solving the existing ones. MasterDeva 06:22, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
So that's why I said "UNTIL Oda gives prove otherwise". After all, whether we use "Sentomaru" or "Sentoumaru" is completely up to us, as Oda has yet to give any prove. And I say, one less "u" makes typing easier. Yatanogarasu 06:35, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
- Not to mention that macrons have the same effect AND are more standardized. :P Joking aside I think we've covered all our major concerns about the choices we make and how they'll affect us. Do you have any other idea you want to throw out for discussion? MasterDeva 06:43, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
So what, just "Sentomaru"? No "uu" or macrons? And we still have the other inconsistency of Japanese vs. English naming to discuss about. But if we are through with the macron stuff, then can we put it to a vote? Yatanogarasu 06:51, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
- I meant Sentōmaru actually. ^_^ I think we need to hear other people's thoughts before we go on a voting. It would be impolite to leave them out of the conversation. My thoughts on the Japanese vs. English naming issue are still the same so... If someone has anything better to propose I wouldn't mind hearing a second or third opinion, we need more ideas about this. MasterDeva 07:03, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
Well, Klobis did change Hyouzou to Hyozo, and he based it on "Kaido" being official (he said it himself). So that should amount to how much people support this idea thing. Yatanogarasu 07:09, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
- Still that doesn't contradict anything I've said. Official or not any change to the name format applies accordingly to what we vote for, it's not written in stone. Technically everything is correct, it only falls down to what we decide ourselves here. We have the freedom (as a wiki) to choose what we want to use! MasterDeva 07:26, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
- Okey-Dokie, so you said hearing other people's thoughts. I did invite several, and asked you guys to invite more, but it only seems that very few people participated in this talk. Yatanogarasu 07:38, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
- You forgot to invite Klobis(!), Joekido, Juracuille, Meganoide and KnightoftheSea. XD They are all active users AND regular editors too! MasterDeva 07:48, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
For Macrons vs. Breves, it kinda boils down to professionalism vs. average joe user know how. The use of macrons indeed are professional but are harder to create on the keyboard for most people. As for the Kaido precedent as stated in the discussion, as far as I can tell is concerned it only shows a precedent for how that one particular character's name is written. Saying that because Oda writes this character's name this way then this other character's name must be written this way is a bit of stretch at least in my opinion. I don't know how to properly say or explain it though, but maybe this whole macron vs breves thing should probably stay with names that haven't been written in english by Oda. I mean if you throw in cases like Oars, which nobody fansub or otherwise figured out, it kinda makes things abit more difficult I guess.
For English vs. Japanese, it really depends on the situation I guess. Glomping them together is kinda hard considering certain factors. For cases like Santōryū, they're best left as Japanese due to fighting style or something like that. For cases like Fishman Karate however, they're best left translated due to the Fishman Merman thing as stated above.
As for SeaTerror's behavior here for which I was called from the other site for. Saying stuff like this is bullshit or I don't like it are really not very good arguments. They only aggravate people in a discussion that would otherwise be civil. Also your behavior here and in other discussions I really have found most distressing SeaTerror. I may not be around much due to the other site, however if I am told of it becoming a real problem for other editors and find evidence to support such claims, then the consequences will be dire. Mugiwara Franky 09:40, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
Well, here's a suggestion: does anyone here know how to create a template of macrons and breves for the MediaWiki:Edittools thing, and can they do it just for convenience for the romanization? Yatanogarasu 09:44, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
- I back Mugiwara Franky about Kaido: Oda choosing to write Kaido does not imply he's decided to stick to one way of romanizing. He could write Kaido for Kaidou, but Hyowzoh for Hyouzou! As far as I know, the name looking "more Japanese" than most others doesn't mean Oda considers it must be standardly romanized. There's nothing more to deduce from the fact he wrote "Kaido" than if he had written it "Keido" (as if it were German) or "Caillideau" (as if it were French).
- (As for Sentōmaru, it is written using kanji, so this is an exception. To romanize it the wiki should follow the convention chosen for "true" Japanese words.) sff9 (talk) 10:36, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
- I'm pleased that more people have come to participate in this. I agree with certain things that Mugiwara Franky and Sff9 pointed out. There are special cases that should be dealt with according to their own peculiarities; as I've explained so above. Oars is a good example of that, Fishman Karate (魚人空手, Gyojin Karate) and Marines (海軍, Kaigun) are some others. That being said we are the ONLY wikia that doesn't have support for macrons, braves etc. due to the MediaWiki:Edittools being deleted for some reason... If Mugiware Franky unlocks the page I'll be able to add it back, so that solves the problem with editors having to remember keyboard shortcuts to write them! MasterDeva 14:58, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
So how exactly is what I did bad when he is the one who claimed that using macrons is better 100% then trying to twist the words around so that it looks like he supports both?
As I said before Kaido could be an exception. It doesn't mean that all names are like that and as is said before mangaka usually don't write the databooks themselves. So I support Sentoumaru, Ryuuma, Hyouzou, etc. SeaTerror 17:12, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
- When you are the one who got it wrong, you shouldn't blame others for your mistakes! As I've said "articles that contain their own peculiarities will always exist too so a global decision might not be a solution to those issues" not like you who I quote, "I support 100% converting everything to double vowels if you want consistency"! Neither I said use 100% macrons, that was just you again putting words in my mouth... I did say though that "consistency is the way to go"!! I never said or implied that I support both, I just mentioned their advantages and disadvantages from a neutral point of view which you never provided. I'm still waiting for that apology, you prick... MasterDeva 17:33, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
You said you wanted the wikia as professional as possible while saying professional translators use macrons (which isn't true as evidenced by how official English companies subtitle) But anyway I apologize for being a prick. SeaTerror 23:21, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
- Apology accepted and I'm glad that you did by the way. Professional translators DO use macrons, that's evident by English translations of scientific and literature works by universities, etc. Companies such as Funimation do NOT use macrons mainly because the targeted audience is mainly kids that wouldn't possibly understand the diacritical marks or the odd spellings of words. That's for commercial purposes that do not interest us.
- It's true that their romanization uses a style close to Wāpuro rōmaji that doesn't use macrons at all. I have explained the problem with that in one of my previous messages. I think that the misunderstanding between "professional translators" came from our different viewpoints on the subject. You refer to media company translators (like Funimation) when you talk about translations while I am referring to the standardized system. That's weird because I thought we were talking about the same thing and I became puzzled while I was reading your writings... Well, to clear some things up now!
- University level translations by professionals use revised Hepburn (which is most widespread romanisation system) when dealing with name romanizations to the English language. In cases where the modified Hepburn is used (which is very uncommon in comparison to revised) they will translate the names ALWAYS using double vowels! That's why I said that cutting the double u is a mistranslation. The Wāpuro rōmaji system can lead to many ambiguities and since it's not standardized, using the name Kaido (for example) doesn't provide something firm to hold on to nor it makes a uniform system to use. I hope that helped clearing any misconceptions. If there is anything else I've written that needs explanation you're free to ask and I'll answer it. MasterDeva 00:23, January 15, 2011 (UTC)
The point is companies like Funimation ARE professional translators. They just choose to translate differently than how a professor would translate. Also the way how names are sometimes double vowels are needed to convey the correct way of pronunciation something for instance there is a difference between Hyuuga and Hyuga. But that is a very minor thing. Also about names if we are going for consistency then I support everything left untranslated. (Names, Locations, etc.) Didn't we also have a consistency argument about nakama being left untranslated? SeaTerror 07:16, January 15, 2011 (UTC)
- Those companies use an unprofessional format for reasons of their own, that much is fact. Mugiwara Franky noted himself that using macrons is professionalism. Macrons are in no way lesser to the double vowels and I've mentioned that many times. Hyuuga for instance is exactly the same as Hyūga in terms of pronunciation. The only way pronunciation would change, is by cutting the double vowel or removing the macron (making it Hyuga). That's something I've also explained before.
- To make an easy example, in Japan the children are introduced first to the easy Hiragana characters to learn the language, with the final purpose of learning how to use Kanji. It is legally required for newspapers to use Kanji with Furagana on top, while Hiragana and Katakana are used in media like mangas and video games! In other words, by making a comparison we see that the translations used by companies such as Funimation is only a small percent of what is widely used as a professional and standard system of writing!
- Leaving everything untranslated will cause some problems with certain articles. There are several examples. Oda has already made it clear from the start that he wants to use "Marines" for "Kaigun" and later that "Gyojin Karate" alludes to Fishman and not Merman Karate. English romanizations provided by the manga and databooks are suitable for us to use. In turn, terms that we haven't got a romanization for will stay untranslated.
- That's similar to what Mugiwara Franky said about leaving fighting styles untranslated (like Santōryū). Names and locations (this is usually an unwritten rule) should be treated the same, unless they are direct romanizations of English (foreign) words so we'll keep them in English. I think that's what most people are leaning towards to. MasterDeva 14:04, January 15, 2011 (UTC)
- Just details about your "children and hiragana" paragraph. First, children are introduced to Hiragana because they're part of the language, not as an easy counterpart of Kanji. Contrary to Chinese, it is not possible to write Japanese using Kanji only. But maybe I misunterpreted your sentence (of course, they learn Hiragana and Katakana first because they're easier). Second, you say that it is legally required for newspapers to use Furigana, but the newspapers I've seen had none. It's precisely in manga and other child-related stuff that Kanji with Furigana are used, e.g. it is the case for One Piece. In manga destined to very young children, maybe only Kanas are used, i don't know. sff9 (talk) 16:16, January 15, 2011 (UTC)
- Yes that's what I meant, maybe I did not phrase it good enough. Hiragana ARE part of the language and they learn them first (together with Katakana) because they are easier. I digressed when I talked about the manga related side (indeed they are addressed to children of very small age) because they're not in the same category as One Piece (for example). As for the legal law about Furigana, I oversimplified things, my apologies. Kanji outside of the those listed by jōyō kanji must be followed by Furigana, that's the law in Japan about newspapers. MasterDeva 16:57, January 15, 2011 (UTC)
I don't know about newspapers but I do know that stuff like shounen is done in furigana/hiragana. The manga magazines that use only kanji only are seinen type manga magazines. "English romanizations provided by the manga and databooks are suitable for us to use. In turn, terms that we haven't got a romanization for will stay untranslated." That's what I meant actually. Leave those translated. Fishman Karate is a special case because Fishman is the name of the race. I'm also surprised that the Santōryū article was never named as Santouryuu. SeaTerror 17:22, January 15, 2011 (UTC)
- So the only thing we do not agree on is the macron vs. double vowels while we share in common our ideas about the way to handle the English vs. Japanese problem, right? MasterDeva 18:07, January 15, 2011 (UTC)
I suppose. I think people agree with the translation thing anyway, SeaTerror 06:51, January 16, 2011 (UTC)
So, should we start voting once and for all? Yatanogarasu 06:54, January 17, 2011 (UTC)
- I was about to say that we should wait for more people but I'm getting a vibe that you kill me if I say so, just kidding~! Xp I think that we have provided enough insight to the issue and have stated all the facts. I also want to mention that I gave the source codes for the MediaWiki:Edittools and MediaWiki:Edittools/UniqueTemplates templates to Mugiwara Franky and has fixed them for us! Now we have a user friendly way to support most characters and symbols!! I think it's okay to start the voting process so... 1, 2, 3
STARTJANGO!!! MasterDeva 13:19, January 17, 2011 (UTC)
We should probably leave messages on people's talk pages to get them to vote and discuss though. SeaTerror 16:28, January 18, 2011 (UTC)
Just before we start voting, I would like to leave one more point: since we started to reduce the usage of the u-extension (Ryuboshi, Hyozo, Ryugu Kingdom, etc.) and following with the Kaido example, we should more than really eradicate the extra u in every one of the articles, UNTIL Oda states otherwise. Just a point I'm trying to make. Yatanogarasu 09:05, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
Nobody decided that. Klobis did that on his own because one name did not have the extra u. All those should be reverted back because just because one name is like that doesn't mean the rest will be. SeaTerror 16:33, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with SeaTerror and Mugiwara Franky, we are getting head ahead of ourselves and create more problems by doing this! This is something that I've already explained above and referred to more than once... We haven't even resolved the macron vs double vowels and we are already taking decisions for other related issues on the fly?
- We are here to vote and decide the name format for the majority of the articles in this wiki, what the databooks use doesn't really matter. Wāpuro rōmaji itself is unsuitable to follow for consistency and carries other problems/disadvantages too, making it a moot point to follow. Saying that we should change everything because of just one name, is kind of sloppy at best and maybe a little irresponsible too. MasterDeva 18:10, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
I decided to revert them now. There was no discussion and as I stated just because one name is like that doesn't mean the rest will be. SeaTerror 18:59, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
Since the first part was getting too long, let's start a part 2. My first point, I think we all agree macrons and breves are too much hassle here and there (and if no one would create the template for the MediaTools thing, then it's all no use), so that's all out, right? Next, should we use the extra "u" extension? I say, no for two reasons: it looks better and it's one less letter to type in. CONSISTENCY, that's what we are aiming for, since Kaido (yeah, yeah, this one alone cannot decide the others...) has no "u", I say all should follow UNTIL (and I can't stress that enough) Oda states otherwise. Everything should go with the flow in the exact same direction. Yatanogarasu 19:22, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
I completely disagree. It most definitely does not look better and it does not take much time to add the u. And it should not follow as has been stated before. Just because one character uses it does not mean the others will. So should we start using anime as a canon just like the Bleach wikia does? I mean obviously Kubo Tite must have approved it just because its the Bleach anime. That's their logic and its exactly like you are saying. SeaTerror 19:30, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
- No, what I'm saying is: so does Kaido get an exception just because of the Green databook, while everyone else must suffer the indignity of the "u"? Yatanogarasu 19:37, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
I already said he should get an exception in this discussion. Also I think you mean they must suffer the dignity of the u. SeaTerror 20:13, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, still, I believe in fairness... the "u" is so unfair... Yatanogarasu 20:36, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
The u is a lot more fair than cutting out a part of their name. SeaTerror 21:09, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
- Let's keep it at that gentlemen. I've noted this before but just because the Databook has it written as Kaido, it doesn't mean that Kaidō OR Kaidou are wrong! That's for us to decide here which name format to follow, the databook is just one of them. We can be consistent by choosing one and sticking to it while we deal with various oddities that come along according to their special attributes and issues. Strictly technically speaking all of them are correct and I want to remind that to everyone. We can't get too much hold up on just a databook. MasterDeva 21:15, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
- My 2 cents: in the Green Databook, just below Kaido's frame, Big Mam is romanized as "Big Mom" (which isn't what have been used in the manga)... So, while using the databook as a reference to romanize Kaido may be acceptable (since this is the only source we have), basing on this mere source the choice for a global romanization standard seems a little excessive! sff9 (talk) 22:30, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
The Databooks also listed Dorry and Broggy as Dorey and Burogy. Since the manga had them different they went with what the manga had it. As has been said before the Databooks are not written by the mangaka themselves. SeaTerror 22:48, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
- That was already mentioned by me some posts above! O_O I think that we should do a summary of what was mentioned and do the voting as soon as possible to avoid repeating ourselves and running around in circles. I'm afraid that not many people will come to express their opinion in this discussion other than to vote and get done with it... MasterDeva 22:55, January 21, 2011 (UTC)
- Tokyo - the name is not spelled "Toukyou"! Phonetically it is "Tōkyō", but all spelled it "Tokyo", and they pronounce it correctly.
- Also, Kaido is spelled "Kaido" but pronounced "Kaidō". That's correct way. In other words, "Hyouzou" "Ryuuboshi" is the way not used. --Klobis 04:30, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
Thank you! Finally, someone gives a great example! Yatanogarasu 05:47, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
They would be pronounced the exact same way regardless if there is a macron or not. Also you said they weren't correct just because Oda spelled one name that way. Just because one is spelled that way doesn't mean the rest are. SeaTerror 06:39, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, yeah, one example can't determine the others, you said that so many times. However, we are now basing it on Klobis' example, we really should follow it, like Tokyo. Yatanogarasu 07:46, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
I don't understand how Klobis' example makes any difference though, you mean Japan's capital correct? Yet, how is that relevant to the One Piece world? There's more than one "correct" way to right a name, that much is obvious to everyone by now. Just because Tokyo is pronounced the same, it doesn't mean that by changing all names to that they are pronounced right! In fact, many of them lose that. It's great that we have another example besides "Kaido" but is no more concrete than either of them... MasterDeva 11:08, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
We should not follow it like Tokyo because of what MasterDeva said. It has nothing to do with One Piece. SeaTerror 14:43, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
Then why are there irrelevant pages to One Piece like [[Tankōbon]], [[Aoni Production]], etc.? Anyway, I think we waited long enough. We should get the voting started soon. Yatanogarasu 02:51, January 23, 2011 (UTC)
MasterDeva, SeaTerror. One question: Who is the author of this great manga? Yes, he is Eiichiro Oda. Do you spell his name "Eiichirou"? Who spells his name "Eiichirou"!? --Klobis 03:12, January 23, 2011 (UTC)
- That would be Eiichirō Oda, I believe~! XD MasterDeva 05:00, January 23, 2011 (UTC)
Whatever the case is macrons are 100X better than just plain cutting off the u at the end and double vowels. Also enough with the real life examples. It has no bearing with what a manga is. SeaTerror 07:10, January 23, 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, so, Tokyo or Eiichiro is not relevant to the One Piece world. Then, in OP world, Kaido is spelled Kaido. Jinbe is spelled Jinbe, not Jinbee. It means Hyozo is spelled Hyozo, not Hyouzou. Hyozo has no official spelling yet, right? How did you know Oda's spelling already? What SeaTerror said is egoistic and groundless. --Klobis 02:16, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
You're the one with groundless claims. You're the one who said that the name is spelled Hyozo because Kaido is spelled Kaido. Just because one name is like that does not mean the rest are. SeaTerror 05:14, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
Alright, even though I support Klobis and am very thankful for his great examples and statements, I'm not taking sides (until the voting), but SeaTerror, your theory of "just because one name is like that does not mean the rest are" is not fair, especially when we are talking about CONSISTENCY, UNTIL (I keep saying that and nobody seems to take it into account) Oda say otherwise. Yatanogarasu 05:18, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
Yeah? I already told you how I support consistency. By using double vowels and the extra u. SeaTerror 05:23, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
- I know, and thanks, but I was just referring to the Kaido example. Yatanogarasu 05:27, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
- You say your opinion is superior to official spellings, SeaTerror? Who do you think you are? It is you who bring about inconsistencies. --Klobis 08:52, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
- Although SeaTerror sounds repetitive saying the same over and over again, it doesn't make it any less valid than when he said it the first time. However it won't make it any stronger... That shows us that we have mentioned everything there was to say about the topic and it's time to vote. All of us concurred on being consistent by deciding on a single name format, that much everyone shares in common. Choosing though to base the entire system on just a name "until" it is proven otherwise, is problematic in itself. Not only it borders dangerously with speculation but if that name were to change, we would have to start this conversation ALL OVER AGAIN!
- Let's explore a different scenario. Suppose that the name doesn't change and stays the same, how will that affect us? English romanizations, mostly databook material, are handled by the mangaka's assistants (that happens with almost every manga) and not the author personally. Wāpuro rōmaji, for instance, is often used as the romanization system which can lead to phonetic inaccuracies and other problems because of its unstandardised nature. I'll use a simple example. If we, as a wiki or any other wiki, decided to follow that system and stumbled upon its naming conflicts; it would come to hunt us again, and again and again...
- That's why the use of a more professional and standardised system is needed by us to avoid those problems. To sum it up, we should decide now what to use, once and for all. That is the very purpose of this conversation and the reason we started this discussion. I don't think I can say anything else that hasn't been mentioned at least twice by some other... we should start the voting process and move on! MasterDeva 12:48, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
Name romanization system
- Macrons (Professional and standardized system used in place of the double vowels, provides phonetic accuracy.)
- Double vowels (Unprofessional system used by fan translations and subbing, provides phonetic accuracy.)
- Without either (Doesn't provide phonetic accuracy.)
Leave your signature under what you wish to vote for:
1. For Macrons:
- Yatanogarasu 20:22, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
- MasterDeva 21:27, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
- JapaneseOPfan 22:56, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
2. For Double vowels:
- YazzyDream 20:59, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
- SeaTerror 21:03, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
- Jinbe 10:23, January 25, 2011 (UTC)
3. For Neither:
Name translation system
- English (Everything is translated to English including Devil Fruits, named attacks and so on.)
- Japanese (Everything is translated to Japanese including words like Marines, Fishmen and the like.)
- Both (Everything is converted to Japanese and we only use English for direct English romanizations such as Colors Trap, names provided by the databooks and cases that need special care like Fishman Karate.)
Leave your signature under what you wish to vote for:
1. For English:
2. For Japanese:
3. For Both:
- YazzyDream 20:57, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
- Jinbe 21:00, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
- SeaTerror 21:03, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
- MasterDeva 21:27, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
- One-Winged Hawk 22:17, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
- JapaneseOPfan 22:56, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
- sff9 (talk) 14:19, January 26, 2011 (UTC)
Clarification on naming origins
If you don't mind, I'm adding another couple of related polls here.
- All pages must have some form of mentioning of name system. (Date book, anime, manga, etc, properly end up in the infobox)
- A page must exist containing ALL names the wikia uses and why. (Keeps it together)
- Both systems.
- We do not need a method of clarifing what names we are using and why. (AKA as we have now... causing confusions for those who haven't seen Data book green, etc).
Leave your signature under what you wish to vote for:
1. Names mentioned on page
2. Names clarified on one single page
- MasterDeva 19:16, January 25, 2011 (UTC)
- sff9 (talk) 14:19, January 26, 2011 (UTC)
- One-Winged Hawk 00:15, February 5, 2011 (UTC)
4:As we have now
Well I'm throwing them up here since their being ignored AGAIN in an argument, guidelines pulled up are RIGHT at the bottom of the page. I'm somewhat sick of having to point out there are or might be conflicts with the guideline so this is to get us to deecide the fate of the pages;
- Keep the pages set up as they are but modify them to suit the wikia as the editors are voting here
- Delete them, we don't need instructions for the wikia on what names we are using (I'll note, on the previous poll I added depending on the vote there would be no need for those pages at all)
- Have one page for all our needs, why do we have 3 anyway, including the information the wikia needs and an update.
- None of the above (A brief description of an alternative idea would be nice. But we won't discuss those here)
Leave your signature under what you wish to vote for:
1:Modify what we have
- MasterDeva 19:16, January 25, 2011 (UTC)
- sff9 (talk) 14:19, January 26, 2011 (UTC)
- YazzyDream 21:47, January 28, 2011 (UTC)
- JapaneseOPfan 23:05, February 1, 2011 (UTC)
- Yatanogarasu 23:50, February 1, 2011 (UTC)
2. Delete them
3. One new page to suit all our needs
- One-Winged Hawk 00:16, February 5, 2011 (UTC)
4. Another idea...
Feel free to give extra comments here. Yatanogarasu 18:36, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
A poll, seriously? We should use a system were we can see who voted what. Fan polls are only good for popularity contests between characters, abilities and the like but NOT for a process like this one! MasterDeva 19:03, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
- Like I said, it's easier to keep track of this way. Yatanogarasu 19:05, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
- If you don't think it's appropriate, then please feel free to switch it to something else. Yatanogarasu 19:05, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
- I was thinking something like the above, you can modify it to make it more user friendly if you will. MasterDeva 19:39, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
What's wrong with Wapūro rōmanji? Also I removed the latest votes. Seriously, the person just signed up to vote. Also don't think that JapaneseOPfan's should count because he just recently joined and most of his edits before the vote were blog comments. SeaTerror 16:22, January 26, 2011 (UTC)
- I just don't like that it do not allow to know the correct pronunciation. Japanese people may have no need for it, but when I read Hyogo, I have no means to guess that it pronounces with long "o"s. sff9 (talk) 20:25, January 28, 2011 (UTC)
So you mean you would rather have it as Hyougou? SeaTerror 21:38, January 28, 2011 (UTC)
- Hyougou or Hyōgō, I don't care, as long as it's not Hyogo. Sorry if that wasn't clear (I thought that was)... sff9 (talk) 21:45, January 28, 2011 (UTC)
Then we think exactly the same way except I would prefer Hyougou over Hyōgō SeaTerror 23:23, January 28, 2011 (UTC)
Cover Pages: A New Inconsistency
While we're on the subject of inconsistencies, I have a new one to bring up: [[:Category:Cover images|cover page images]] for chapter pages. It was said that we prefer RAW images for these cover pages, but I noticed some of them are either in scanlated English or some other foreign language (Chinese). Can we fix it all up? Yatanogarasu 07:46, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
- I'm on it, I'll need some time though. MasterDeva 10:40, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
When was that ever said that RAW's were preferred? Scanlated English covers should be used. SeaTerror 14:43, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
Thank you, MasterDeva. To SeaTerror, we prefer to use RAW because it captures the essence of the chapter, and it's not diluted by all the scanlations, watermark and copyright logos, etc. Yatanogarasu 23:19, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
The only chapter scanlation covers that have water mark and copyright logos are Mangastream. Besides I checked the talk pages. Who's this "we"? Nowhere does it say that RAW's are preferred. SeaTerror 02:05, January 23, 2011 (UTC)
- Its not on Image Guidelines. I do vaguely recall a older conversation I had where I did approve of it, since scanning groups DO slight changes here and there in their art fix ups. However, I'm not sure what and how the conversation went. Watermark is "no way" that much I can confirm, but I do somewhat agree to raws in some places. However as they are not a clean version is does sort of create problems. Since that conversation, I've also wondered again on it.
- In contex of the image guidelines, theres no current rule against raw images, and no rule that states which image must take perference be it raw, manga or anime. I think RAW has been removed as I recall adding it in the "no" section, maybe I removed it during the conversation about using RAWs. All I know is there is no rule saying we must use anime over manga. One-Winged Hawk 22:23, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
- Tipota did a great job updating the old chapter covers to clean crisp raw tankōbon pages and I think that Kdom helped with it a little as well. Although there is no rule mentioned it has been going on for a while and many editors have been into it about using raws. Lol, Hawk, for how long have you been away or semi-active? :P MasterDeva 00:08, January 25, 2011 (UTC)
- 8 months, however I'm just pointing out we really don't have to do it here, nothing more, my job is to make sure the guidelines are heard it seems int he last few years anyway. Though I'm going a long way about it. But thats how I work, to cause much confusiion it seems. Lol. XD
- The wikia I was helping to build is more or less sorted now anyway. I admit I'm catching up, although I came back to voice some veteran notes here and there on some issues we have going on. And to note the trouble hasn't been resolved with the admin status and was now worst then it was when I left. But yeah, that was the downside... :-(
- I will note something really important, perference is meaningless. We also prefer blanked scanalations, but this is done to avoid 1) any mistakes being taken as gospel that sneak in on a scanalation and 2) to give credit to no single translating group. Remember, the perference thing led to the fall out of the tabbing system. If someone quotes the guidelines and uploads a new version, theres nothing you can do about it unless a high rank (beaucrat/admin) resolves the issue. One-Winged Hawk 01:31, January 25, 2011 (UTC)
Then let's start using RAWs. That way, we don't need to worry about watermarks, giving credits to some scanlators and not others, and no need to blank out the speech bubbles (which looks terrible: a panel with blank bubbles, looks like a writer's block nightmare). Yatanogarasu 01:35, January 25, 2011 (UTC)
- I think the guidelines may need tweaking, but we are agreeing anyway to ammend some of our guidelines here. One-Winged Hawk 00:13, February 5, 2011 (UTC)
These pages need imeditate attention related to this topic just to be cleaned up. I confess I'm lost on the names so can't fix any problems with them. Can someone who knows whats going on check them over and adjust them where needed? Its rally important guidelines support editors' actions otherwise it can go against us. One-Winged Hawk 16:32, January 22, 2011 (UTC)
Covers and Summaries
I don't know if i'm allowed to participate in this conversation, but I just wanted to point out the fact that some of the earlier chapters don't have summaries at all and their cover explinations don't include the full title of the mini-series.
- Ex. of non-summary: http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Chapter_260
- Ex. of non-mini series title: http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Chapter_237
I fixed some of them, but before I go and do all of them, can we talk about this as well? Of course, I won't be able to do all the summaries if we should, so I will need help on that too. JapaneseOPfan 22:56, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
:You should have mentioned that on their respective talk pages though and not here. Maybe you could ask DancePowderer to help you with those two, he added summaries for many other chapters as well. MasterDeva 00:12, January 25, 2011 (UTC)
Alrighty （・▽・）♭. Oh, and also, can you possibly make a link to that "respective talk" page? I can't find it.... ThanksJapaneseOPfan 05:11, January 25, 2011 (UTC)
Thanks to Jinbe on Volume 61, it developed that neither macrons nor double vowels are used in OP world. If we continue to use the spelling like Kaidō or Kaidou, it causes the inconsistency. If you don't think your opinion is superior to Oda, we should use the spelling like "Tokyo" "Eiichiro", until Oda states otherwise. --Klobis 12:41, February 10, 2011 (UTC)
Then let's do it! Let's change Kāshī to Kashi, Sentoumaru to Sentomaru, and so much more. Yatanogarasu 20:36, February 10, 2011 (UTC)
Kaido never had anything over the o when the official spelling came out. Spelling names like Sentomaru without the u would be easier for English speakers to understand. If they don't know enough about Japanese, then they might think it's pronounced Sentowmaru, like the ou in words like found and sound.DancePowderer 20:42, February 10, 2011 (UTC)
We're talking about the "ou", not just the o. Yatanogarasu 20:45, February 10, 2011 (UTC)
Aren't we going to get rid of the u in pages like Sentoumaru and Ryuuboshi? I thought that's what was agreed on above.DancePowderer 20:48, February 10, 2011 (UTC)
Wait, are you agreeing or disagreeing here? You didn't vote up there, and what you said is made it sound like you wanted the extra u, but now you make it sound otherwise. Yatanogarasu 20:53, February 10, 2011 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I don't want the extra u. I was simply making the point that getting rid of it might also be easier for readers who don't know Japanese to understand the pronunciations of words, since to an English speaker, the ou in some cases can sound similar to the ow sound, like cow and found, which could lead some people to believe that Sentoumaru is pronounced Sentowmaru because of the ou. Sorry I wasn't clearer.DancePowderer 21:01, February 10, 2011 (UTC)
Don't worry, we have the romanization in the infobox, they can learn from there. Yatanogarasu 21:04, February 10, 2011 (UTC)
So, should we start moving pages now?DancePowderer 21:06, February 10, 2011 (UTC)
Please do. Yatanogarasu 21:13, February 10, 2011 (UTC)
1. For Macrons:
* Yatanogarasu 20:22, January 24, 2011 (UTC) * MasterDeva 21:27, January 24, 2011 (UTC) * JapaneseOPfan 22:56, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
2. For Double vowels:
* YazzyDream 20:59, January 24, 2011 (UTC) * SeaTerror 21:03, January 24, 2011 (UTC) * Jinbe 10:23, January 25, 2011 (UTC)
3. For Neither:
DancePowderer 03:46, February 12, 2011 (UTC)
If it was getting moved then Klobis would count as For Neither which means the other 2 options are still tied. SeaTerror 02:10, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
- Irrelevant. YOU ARE THE ONE WHO MAKE THE INCONSISTENCY! Please answer. Do you think your opinion is superior to Oda or not? --Klobis 02:46, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
It is not irrelevant. I bet you don't even know what that means. The vote is tied for macrons or for double vowels. Therefore your edits are going against the vote. SeaTerror 03:10, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
- You don't answer my question. Vote of fans is not superior to official style. Otherwise fan oneself will bring about an inconsistency. --Klobis 03:28, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
Just because one name is spelled that way doesn't mean the rest are. You cannot ignore the vote just because you don't like it. SeaTerror 14:23, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
- Kaido, Jinbe, that's two names. So we should follow Oda's example. Two is more than one. Yatanogarasu 18:13, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Klobis, I don't think macrons or whatever are important and we should just follow official spelling.
It doesn't matter. The vote still says otherwise. SeaTerror 18:57, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
We're not the author, and STOP saying that "one name" thing. Oda decides how to name his characters, so stop going against him. Oh, and no more that "one name" thing. Yatanogarasu 19:23, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
So you can just ignore a vote just because you don't like it? SeaTerror 21:06, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, then let's defy Oda's words. Sheesh! The vote is equally tied, so now it basically no longer counts. If someone is willing to add their vote to shift the balance, then we can do the change accordingly. Yatanogarasu 21:39, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
- If not, then Oda style, since we cannot argue against him. What are you gonna do, change Luffy to Rufi just for consistency? Will you do that? Yatanogarasu 21:40, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
I want to go with what ODA decides, you know the AUTHOR of all that is One Piece? So I'm changing my vote to neither.
Now, votes of "neither" are 4. (Yatanogarasu, DancePowderer, YazzyDream and me) So, sorry SeaTerror, you cannot ignore the vote just because you don't like it. --Klobis 02:25, February 12, 2011 (UTC)
DancePowderer never voted. Also saying because some names are spelled that way means the rest are is asinine. SeaTerror 03:40, February 12, 2011 (UTC)
Just did.DancePowderer 03:46, February 12, 2011 (UTC)
- "Well, Klobis has already moved somethings like Yuuya to Yuya, Youko to Yoko (Water 7), etc. So I think it's best to cut out the extra u." → Wow, that is the worst possible argument. Bravo.
- "What are you gonna do, change Luffy to Rufi just for consistency?" → This has no link with the current discussion. Luffy's romanization is known.
- Despite those dreadful arguments, I finally think it's kinda logical to romanize these Japanese-style names the Japanese way, i.e. without macrons or double vowels. That makes sense.
- sff9 (talk) 12:58, February 12, 2011 (UTC)
What? "Hyougou or Hyōgō, I don't care, as long as it's not Hyogo. Sorry if that wasn't clear (I thought that was)..." SeaTerror 17:15, February 12, 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, I changed my mind a little bit (hence the word "finally"). I still don't like this romanization, but hey, if Japanese people write their own names like that, I don't see how we could not bow to it. sff9 (talk) 19:40, February 12, 2011 (UTC)
I like the way it sounds for words with ou or ō, but as Klobis stated somewhere, Tokyo does NOT have these things in it though it sounds like it should but everyone pronounces it correctly anyway. Also, put the "ou" aside, and the "ō" is hard to make and everyone copy/pastes it, so it's just plain backbreaking to do! Infobox is enough; trust me, more people than you think look at it. JapaneseOPfan 18:08, February 12, 2011 (UTC)
JapaneseOPfan has more or less summed it up. Spelling it without the additional u or macrons or breves is practical, convenient, and most of all correct. It might seem too simplistic, but maybe we were reading into it too much.DancePowderer 04:15, February 13, 2011 (UTC)
Uh. Total BS. The most correct way to spell something is with macrons. Also BS on no extra u being practical and convenient. SeaTerror 15:46, February 13, 2011 (UTC)
I'm surprised that out of all the comments in this section, SeaTerror is the only one who makes sense... It's like people didn't bother to read the above discussions or somehow managed to erase them from their memory! I'll recap some things so we get back on track. I have added the character support for macrons among others in the MediaWiki:Edittools so it IS practical and convenient to use NOW, how did you come up to the opposite conclusion?
Macrons are something used by English language speakers to display the correct pronunciation of a name. Just because the Japanese do not commonly use it doesn't mean anything to us, that's like saying "hey the author of that magazine writes in caps, we should do that too" and it makes as much sense! The same can be said about double vowels as well, while it is less professional it is an accurate way to display Japanese names romanized in English.
On the other hand cutting the extra u or o has the reverse effect, NOT the other way around! Just because Tokyo is written without macrons or double vowels doesn't mean anything special, more like the exception that confirms the rule. It is in our hand to chose the name writing system we want for this wiki and we are free to do so.
What the manga source uses is irrelevant because this site is mainly in English and NOT on Japanese! That only applies for the foreign name writing system in English though and not something else so don't misinterpret what I've wrote. Another example that follows the kind of logic that some editors used above involves names, which comes closer to the core of the problem. It goes like this, "let's put the family name first for characters from the East and the given name first for those from West" which doesn't make any sense if we go by the English language...!
I'll say it again for people here to keep in mind this time, we are free to chose the writing style for the names ourselves. We are not restricted by neither the manga nor the author of One Piece to do so and that's no brainer to realise. MasterDeva 20:36, February 26, 2011 (UTC)
Your arguments about Oda's official spelling have all been completely and utterly crushed by the fact Oda spelled a name as Chouchou and not Chocho. SeaTerror 18:43, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
- This is unrelated, the romanization of Chouchou is
ShūshūShushu, not Chōchō. It's the western name "Chouchou", not a Japanese one. sff9 (talk) 19:11, May 13, 2011 (UTC)
Wrong. SeaTerror 23:20, May 15, 2011 (UTC)
What's your point? Yes, Oda romanized
Shūshū Shushu as the non-Japanese noun Chouchou. This has nothing to do with double vowels. It's as if Oda called a character "Sioux": there's a "ou", but it's unrelated to Japanese. sff9 (talk) 06:29, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
Did you even read the conversation? Everybody changed their votes from double vowels or macrons because they said Oda officially romanized it that way. Their arguments have been completely crushed with that image. SeaTerror 07:09, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
- This would be true if Chouchou's name was "チョウチョウ" or "チョーチョー". Here this is not the Japanese "ou". The name's pronunciation is like "shoe shoe" in English. sff9 (talk) 08:14, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
Chouchou is a French word. It is unrelated to Japanese. --Klobis 11:04, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
The pronunciation is not what matters. Its the spelling. Oda doesn't use neither all the time like everybody said he did. So good bye terrible arguments. SeaTerror 15:37, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
- As usual, you keep saying the same things without taking into account what people say. The double vowel/macron thing is about romanization of Japanese, not foreign words. sff9 (talk) 15:55, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
Doesn't really matter. The spelling works with anything. He would have used Chocho. SeaTerror 16:10, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
- No, because the Japanese name is neither "チョウチョウ" nor "チョーチョー"! "Chocho" is not pronounced like "Shushu", which is the Japanese romanization of its name "シュシュ". He's using the foreign word "Chouchou". Nobody ever meant that Oda doesn't use "ou" in the names, the discussion was about Japanese long vowels. sff9 (talk) 16:34, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
You seriously need to reread the discussion if you think nobody ever meant that. I can post multiple quotes if you want me to. SeaTerror 16:41, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
- All that was said is that Oda never used "ou" to romanize "long vowel O" and "uu" for "long vowel U", which is still true, since "Chouchou" does not contain long vowels. I'd be glad that you post quotes, that would help clarifying what you seem to misunderstand. sff9 (talk) 20:02, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
Yeah it actually does. Its either pronounced chou(w) chou(w) or cho cho.
You don't answer my question. Vote of fans is not superior to official style. Otherwise fan oneself will bring about an inconsistency. --Klobis 03:28, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Klobis, I don't think macrons or whatever are important and we should just follow official spelling. YazzyDream Talk OnePiece ★ 18:37,2/11/2011
That kills that argument. Not every name is romanized the way they think it is. SeaTerror 20:14, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
- "Yeah it actually does. Its either pronounced chou(w) chou(w) or cho cho. " → No. "Long vowels" refer to something specific in Japanese, that's written using a macron in Hepburn romanization. The Hepburn romanization of Chouchou is Shushu, there's no long vowel.
- There's nothing in the posts you quote that shows people weren't talking about Japanese long vowels. They were. The "Chouchou" romanization has nothing to do with long vowels. It is not an inconsistency.
- sff9 (talk) 20:30, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
They are still wrong to say that no u or macron is "official" spelling. SeaTerror 20:34, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
- Well, it's a fact that every official romanization of a Japanese name including a long vowel, translates this long vowel into a single vowel (no macron, no double vowel). That's why they assume that the official way of romanizing Japanese names is to use single vowels to translate long vowels, at least until there's a counterexample, which Chouchou is not. sff9 (talk) 21:00, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
Every single one? Provide proof. Chouchou is a counter example. You don't except it because you voted for the other way. SeaTerror 23:03, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
- I do my best to be patient and explain things to you, and now you're insulting me. You apparently didn't even try to understand what I said. You're really disrespectful, as usual.
- You really should learn to discuss. Discussing implies that you envisage the possibility that you may be wrong. :Re-read the talk with that in mind, and everything should become clearer. I'm not going to repeat myself an umpteenth time. sff9 (talk) 07:56, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
Insult you? If I was insulting you I would have called you a name or something. Something cannot be proven for the rest because one or two names uses spellings without the u. SeaTerror 16:02, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- "Insult you? If I was insulting you I would have called you a name or something." → By saying that I don't accept your point of view because I voted for the other way, you imply that I'm in bad faith, which is insulting, even if you didn't mean it that way.
- "Something cannot be proven for the rest because one or two names uses spellings without the u." → That's another problem, but does the fact that you come back to this previous debate mean you finally understood that Chouchou is not a counterexample? sff9 (talk) 17:45, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
I don't see how you could call that insulting. Nope. I still consider it one. SeaTerror 16:08, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
- Well then, I'm not gonna lose any more time. You really should learn to communicate, that can prove helpful. It actually implies trying to understand what people say. sff9 (talk) 16:26, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
Discussion IV: Non-Name Words
I took the liberty to start a new section, since it is a slightly different problem. Most of the editors agreed on using wapūro rōmanji to write Japanese names for which romanization is unconfirmed. A remark of DancePowderer made me think the arguments used for names may not be as much convincing for common nouns, such as Yonkō or Santōryū. These are not names, but only Japanese words; cannot we choose whatever romanization we want, without having to refer to Oda's choice, in this case?
To sum up, I don't think it would break consistency to use a different romanization than wapūro rōmanji for these words. However, they cannot just be left unchanged, as some use double vowels (Yonkou) and some use macrons (Santōryū).
I guess most people will choose "super-consistency", i.e. to use the same romanization for all words, including names and non-name words. But it's worth checking, since it seems to be a hotbed for edit wars! sff9 (talk) 08:25, February 15, 2011 (UTC)
Devil Fruit Colorschemes
It maybe a different topic but since this forum is about inconsistency then it's worth mentioning. Arguing about words while letting seemingly random inconsistent colorschemes to go unmonitored is abit hypocritical.184.108.40.206 17:14, February 16, 2011 (UTC)
Discussion V: Hyouzou
OK, now, using SeaTerror's wording, the "Kaido" and "Jinbe" arguments are "completely and utterly crushed", since Oda officially romanized Hyouzou and not Hyozo. Since he isn't consistent in his romanization scheme, we cannot infer any rule. Guess that reopens the debate about macrons/double vowels/single vowels for names whose official romanization is unknown. (Funny that you just closed this forum a few hours before the chapter came out, Yatanogarasu!)
Pwned. Anyway obviously you know how I will vote again but if we have to then I can live with macrons. SeaTerror 01:59, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
I say we keep things as they are and take the romanizations as they come.02:01, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
No. It should be with double u or macrons. SeaTerror 21:32, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
One name doesn't set the tone for the rest of the unromanized names. They are easier to write without macrons and the double u's look silly. I like what we have going.22:34, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
So what? It killed all of your terrible arguments about Oda using that type of romanization. The only thing that's silly is using names that Viz and other official companies use. Double u's should be used but the best thing right now is to use macrons. SeaTerror 02:47, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, but Kaido instead of Kaidou, so kill your "terrible arguments" back at you. We keep everything as it is, and only change if Oda provides us a source that says otherwise. After all, we don't know which is more correct: "Big Mom" vs. "Big Mam". The answer to all this is "wait and see".03:39, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
- After all, we use Doma instead of Douma (due to romanization read as "Dōma"). 03:44, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
Exactly. There's no consistency, so it's best to keep it simple.03:51, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
Which is why macrons would be best because its neutral. I can live with macrons. Also you completely missed the point of that comment. Let me show you what You and Yazzy said. Okay, then let's defy Oda's words. Sheesh! The vote is equally tied, so now it basically no longer counts. If someone is willing to add their vote to shift the balance, then we can do the change accordingly. Yatanogarasu 21:39, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
I want to go with what ODA decides, you know the AUTHOR of all that is One Piece? So I'm changing my vote to neither. YazzyDream Talk OnePiece ★ 21:49,2/11/2011 SeaTerror 07:06, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
I agree that we should go with what Oda decides. But, until we know what he's decided, I say we go with no macrons.07:34, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
Hey, who the hell wrote the comment about me saying "Okay, then let's defy Oda's words" thing under my signature? I think the signatures have been shifted for the previous several comments. But in any case, I have an example here: according to the fourth databook (canon, trustworthy source) it is Gekko Moriah, not "Gekkou Moriah" (due to "Gekkō Moria" from romanization). If we take the Hyouzou as the prime example, then we would change it to Gekkou as well. Which example would you take as the basis of naming the pages: Gekko-Gekkou or Hyouzou-Hyozo? 07:59, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
- What I am saying is that Gekko vs. Hyouzou, it's "no macrons" vs. "macrons", and both are canonically accurate, so this is a clash that cannot be decided by us, but Oda himself. If you insist on using macrons and double u and whatnot, then it will become "Gekkou" and "Douma", and so on... 08:02, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
Again, I still like how we're handling it now by keeping extra letters out of the names until or unless it becomes necessary.08:06, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, but the main problem is that SeaTerror is adamant in using the extra "u" and whatnot, based on Hyouzou alone, even when the counterargument of "Jinbe", "Gekko" and "Kaido". He absolutely refuses to accept them and insists on changing Sentomaru to Sentoumaru, etc. 08:09, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
- Actually he didn't say that. He said that since Oda's not consistent, we should go with macrons since it is the most neutral.
So, just because he won't take "no" for an answer we're supposed to appease him? That doesn't seem right to me. I don't see how macrons are neutral. I would think that having the most basic spelling would be the most neutral since it's the name in its simplest form.17:45, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
Most basic spelling? Find one fansub/scanlation that uses those kind of spellings. Almost all fansubs use double u type spellings. The ones that don't are the ones who usually use official English translations like Horriblesubs who just rip Crunchyroll subs. The others use what was officially romanized by the original mangaka. Macrons is the most neutral because Oda has used both types of spellings. SeaTerror 23:01, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
We are not a fansub group. Besides, what makes macrons better if Oda uses both? How do you know the fansubs aren't getting it wrong?23:22, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
I was showing your flawed logic to use "the most basic" when most people use double u's. Macrons are better because it covers both bases and is the most neutral since Oda uses both. SeaTerror 00:23, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
They don't change anything with the pronunciation, and Oda using both does not make one more neutral than the other. They would be equally neutral that way. What we're doing now isn't affecting anything negatively, so I don't see why using macrons is better.00:43, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
Okay, SeaTerror, I'm just gonna ask you outright: what evidence do you want in order to be persuaded that macrons are not better?01:12, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
Just going to add my two cents. I think the way we finally voted them is fine. That is to say, they're find the way we have them now, and as DP said above, we should just change them as they come.
Exactly, but SeaTerror alone keeps saying change them all, refusing to listen to consent.04:59, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
A few things I wanna add here.
- "They don't change anything with the pronunciation" → they do. If we use neither macrons nor double vowels, we have to check the infobox to know whether vowels are long or not.
- "Oda using both does not make one more neutral than the other" → that's exactly why macrons are neutral, and not any of the other two. Suppose we choose to use macrons for all Japanese words that don't have an official romanization. Then, when we see a name with a macron, say Kāshī, not only do we know how it is pronounced, but we also know that this romanization is just a Japanese transcription and not an official romanization.
There you go. I never said double u's or 1 u is the most neutral. I said macrons are the most neutral. SeaTerror 19:36, July 2, 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, but "Hyouzou" has no macrons, but instead uses that extra u. (BTW, there are macrons at the bottom of the editing page, at "Characters").20:59, July 2, 2011 (UTC)