Couldn't we have just waited for the name before making the page for this? I mean, we might as well bring back the Marco's Devil Fruit page if we're doing this.04:38, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
No, "Marco's Devil Fruit" is a conjectural name, and the "Tori Tori no Mi, Model: Phoenix" is just something we made up on a clear whim and mistranslation, but Caesar's subordinates clearly said "Artificial Devil Fruit" (人造悪魔の実 Jinzō Akuma no Mi?), so it counts as an official name. 04:42, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Besides, if it's a failure, then Vegapunk shouldn't have given it a name (though this part is speculative, to say). At least "Artificial Devil Fruit" is an acknowledged term and name. 04:44, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
I guess. It still feels a little premature to me.05:03, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Well, as long as there is an "official name" to leech off of (even if it's only in description), then I guess we could use it as a title (at least until a "better sounding" name is out). This also saves us the later trouble of creating the page to wait for the so-called better name to come out. 05:24, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
- I suppose you're right. 05:28, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, and just a side-note: we go as far as Kogatana, so why not this? 05:40, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Fair enough, good point. 05:52, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
Can't say I really support this page as it is now. You brought up the example of Tori Tori no Mi, Model Phoenix as something made up, but calling this the "Artificial Devil Fruit" would be more like creating a separate page for "Ancient Zoan Devil Fruit" for Drake's fruit (or "Mythical Zoan Devil Fruit" for Marco, before we knew about Sengoku). For all we know, there could be other artificial Devil Fruits out there, but the article as written specifically deals with Momo's fruit, not the concept of Devil Fruit synthesis. I think it would be better to just give it a subheading and paragraph on the main Devil Fruit page, and put the specifics of the Dragon fruit on Momo's page, like we do for everyone else.
Also, keep in mind what was said back in Enies Lobby - "you can tell the name of the fruit from the ability it grants." Naming it the "Artificial Devil Fruit" makes it seem too much like that's it's actual name, even though it will probably still be something like the Ryu Ryu no Mi despite being artificial.06:41, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
How about this: if more artificial Devil Fruits appear, then we can merge this page into Devil Fruit or something. Until then, we should consider this the only one of its kind, as no more has been said. Unlike Mythical, this one is not natural, so the possibility of being unique to the point of deserving its own page is much higher.06:46, October 19, 2012 (UTC)
Probably best to mention them in the page. Not all of them are SMILEs, right?07:26, January 29, 2013 (UTC)
Move SMILE to this page, and sub-headline the two types of artificial fruits under the same page?09:02, January 29, 2013 (UTC)
Done. Feel free to spruce it up where necessary.07:11, January 31, 2013 (UTC)
By the way, isn't it Doflamingo who creates Smiles? Caesar just produces SAD, and then uses the tanker to transfer it to Doflamingo.07:21, January 31, 2013 (UTC)
No, Doflamingo is a broker who has lots of contacts, and uses Caesar to buy the Smiles from him and in turn makes a profit from Kaido since I doubt Kaido would personally contact a crazy scientist. Sewil 7:27, January 31 - 2013
Mythical zoan Edit
I am not saying that it should be clasified as a mythical zoan, but isn't it at least trivia worthy that Momo's fruit shares many of its charactaristics with the other mythical zoans; a dragon being a mythical creature plus the secondary ability to create clouds, or would this be to much speculation? Cosmikaze (talk) 16:14, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
That's speculation. As far as we know, dragons exist or have existed in the OP world (see Monsters).
See Monsters? More like see Punk Hazard Arc which had quite a few dragons, and see Ryuma who fought a dragon. Also, I know being filler it doesn't help much, but Warship Island Arc had countless dragons in it. The point is that in the One Piece world, dragons are not mythical creatures. They're probably rare and considered a myth by many characters, but they're real. 17:20, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
- Punk Hazard dragons were man-made, hence my choice of Monsters (and thus Ryuma) as a better example…
- Oh right, forgot about that. But wouldn't the fact that they're man-made no longer make them mythical? 17:31, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
- No, because there could still be some natural dragons out there, meaning they're still mythical. There just happen to be some man-made ones too. 17:38, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
There is nothing to say there aren't Phoenixes out there somewhere, or that the Mythical part of Mythical Zoan precludes the animals currently or even having been real. I mean yes mythical implies it doesn't exist, but anime especially uses mythical interchangably with legendary, I can't give you a quote now but if you've seen a lot of anime, you've seen them get to some location or building and call it 'mythical'. Yes it's speculation that this attempt was to make a Mythical Zoan, instead of just a Zoan, but it's also very likely. And at present the rules of the mytic zoan's haven't been fully mapped out, but giving momo that secondary power of making clouds, is something only Sengoku and Marco have demonstrated, among Zoan users. Also worth noting is that of the mythic zoan users, 100% of them have had a secondary ability like that. That being said, a fruit that is a zoan + an ability can probably be said to be a mythic. Finally I want to say, and this part really is speculation, Vegapunk is better than Ceasar, we know that. We also know Caesar has succeeded in creating working zoan fruits. So while yes, Caesar probably stole Vega's data and completed/improved upon it, it is very unlikely in an anime that the "master" would fail at a task the lower ranked one could accomplish. Thus I would say Vegapunk was trying to make the much harder Mythical Zoan fruit, and not just some dinky zoan. Then again this is all also kind of moot since we don't know what classifies this fruit as a failed experiment. Clearly it works to the extent of a zoan or even mythic zoan or (whatever the third type of zoan drake has, is) but since it DOES work for that, who knows what he was TRYING to do, amirite?18.104.22.168 09:04, August 28, 2015 (UTC)Hi
First Appearance ?
I'm just rewatching the anime at the momment and in episode 398 he says "this is the age of smiles" ? so wouldn't that be the first appearance of it (not sure about manga as i don't read it....
We never saw a smiley then.17:24, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
Artificial & SMILEsEdit
With the new informations about SMILEs factory etc, what about make of "SMILEs" a subpage of "Artificial Devil Fruit" as for Haki types?? (example: "Artificial Devil Fruit/SMILEs")?? RAYleigh92 @\_/@ talk 16:09, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
I would agree if it weren't for the finer details behind Momonosuke's fruit. Because it was made by Vegapunk, we don't know if he used SAD to do it. Also, due to its full complexion, we don't know if it was a failure in the same way that the fruits from chapter 738 were. I'd keep them separate for now.16:30, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
Well we can do something as:
- Artificial Devil Fruit (Main Page, explanation, common point, general plot impact)
- Artifical Devil Fruit/Vegapunk's Fruit (about Momonosuke)
- Artifical Devil Fruti/SMILEs (about SMILEs, factory, Caesar, Doflamingo and Kaido)
- Artificial Devil Fruit (Main Page, explanation, common point, general plot impact) (here we talk about momonosuke too)
- Artifical Devil Fruti/SMILEs (about SMILEs, factory, Caesar, Doflamingo and Kaido)
Actually we don't know if the SMILE is an artificial devil fruit ready to be eaten. There may be another step in the production. Also, technically, not all SMILEs are artificial devil fruits because, as we saw, some are failed and, for all we know, they could be ordinary fruits. So I say no, sorry.
Remember all the speculation about Haki? Oda will confirm details when he is ready to do so. There's no point trying to think ahead. If he genuinely leaves it unclear, then we debate it. Not before.
It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 22:48, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
Split the page Edit
I think we should split this page: "Artificial Devil Fruit" (for the one Momonosuke ate) and SMILE (for the ones Gifters ate). They are created under two different circumstances, scientists and ate by two different parties.17:23, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
Just because the Articial DF was a one-off that doesn't mean it shouldn't be mentioned alongside SMILEs. It's a prototype that Caesar attempted to duplicate. In a sense, it was the first SMILE.
It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 19:24, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
They are more than different enough to warrant a split. Momonosuke fully transforms while, so far, the SMILEs allow users to transform body parts into any part of the animal (Ex. Sheepshead transforming hands into horns). They can also control their transformations, while Momonosuke's are random. Should be split in my opinion. 19:57, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
No, we have the physical appearance, strengths and weaknesses, usage, references, and history. Long enough.21:03, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
Hey, if we're gonna split it (or even if we're not), we would add all those sections to conform with the standard Devil Fruit pages.21:17, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
Yata's right. Though they may seem short with the current info on each page, the layouts do not match the standard Devil Fruit whatsoever. We could easily lengthen them. 22:08, May 5, 2016 (UTC)
Also, Momo and the Gifters are drifting apart in terms of Devil Fruit usage now, Momo being unable to control much of the time, while the Gifters turning their hands into animal parts. We really should split. We can change the layouts after the split.18:17, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
There's only one Hito Hito no Mi in existence at a time currently. That warrants a page of its own, or we may as well combine it with the Daibutsu page.22:33, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
So what, I should just give up and NOT try to fight for what I believe in? Vegapunk created Momo's fruit, Caesar and Doffy created SMILEs. Each side uses each type differently, Momo's was a failure, SMILEs are a success with limited risks noted. Even the fruits' colors are different (anime-wise). And "only fruit of his kind to exist" warrants a deeper reason to split the page, since the SMILEs go in a category of their own, while this "only fruit of his kind" is unique in both existence and page.09:08, May 15, 2016 (UTC)
ST, either say something useful or don't say anything. Yata, I get what you mean, but just because a prototype is the "only one of it's kind" doesn't really make it important for any more than being a prototype.
It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 15:57, May 15, 2016 (UTC)
"ST, either say something useful or don't say anything." http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/irony?q=Irony SeaTerror (talk) 16:14, May 15, 2016 (UTC)
Now ST, there is nothing to warrant being rude. That is just unprofessional. The fruit is in fact a failure created by Vegapunk (not a SMILE). The usage and attributed of the different fruits stated by Yata demonstrate further difference. With only 5 participants on the talk page, we clearly need more opinions before a conclusion can be drawn. Though there is 3-2 majority to keep the page as is, that is too close of a margin to decide. We usually have a lot more participants or unanimity. I'll see if I can get anyone else to comment on the matter. 17:22, May 15, 2016 (UTC)
I have to agree with a Yata. Momo's fruit was created by Vegapunk. The others were created by Caesar. They should be separated.17:33, May 15, 2016 (UTC)
I don't know why you mentioned SMILE when they're already separated on the article as it is. This article is about artificial Devil Fruits overall not just one or the other. SeaTerror (talk) 19:00, May 15, 2016 (UTC)
No they're not, SMILE is a redirect to Artificial Devil Fruit as of now. That's why I am proposing to split.19:18, May 15, 2016 (UTC)
We should split the page since the two fruits are different both in creation and usage: Momo's fruit turns him into a full dragon while SMILE users can turn their hands into horns and heads and whatnot. There's really nothing that connects them. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 20:27, May 15, 2016 (UTC)
@ST, the overview separates them into two sections: Vegapunk's failed version and SMILE, they are still crammed into one article. Very cluttered. It's like cramming the Funk Brothers back into one page, when Kelly is now a Devil Fruit user.01:19, May 16, 2016 (UTC)
Both fruits being artifical is a single similarity against numerous differences. It could honestly be a subcategory of Zoan Devil fruits. 03:00, May 16, 2016 (UTC)
- "All natural Devil Fruits are distinctive enough to get their own page"
- "Artificial Devil Fruits are all the same because they're manmade"
You're telling us we should keep the artificial Devil Fruits under a single page because of a very broad similarity, yet you also think that the same logic doesn't apply to natural DFs even though they also have a broad similarity (being natural). That is just stupid. If we want to treat our Devil Fruit articles consistently, we should either consolidate all natural DFs into 1 article or split the Artificial DFs by their clear differences. One of those options seems very logical to me Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 10:28, May 16, 2016 (UTC)
A bit of a bump, but I realized that I never responded to Nova's last point (we all focused on ST, but there are other less vocal users on his side). Nova, while it is true that the Artificial Fruit made by Vegapunk was only a prototype, it is the only creation in the series of its kind. I know I'm basically restating Yata's point, but I agree with it. It may have been part of the process to get to the SMILES, but it now plays its own role in the story.
I honestly feel like it has gotten to a point where the discussion has stagnated and there are very few additional points to be made. The only thing to keep this productive is getting a larger sample. 02:14, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
I think we just need more information on how Gifters work. I'm not totally convinced they can only partially transform. Talk | 15:06, May 31, 2016 (UTC)
We know that the SMILE and the one Devil Fruit Momo ate are two different natures. That warrants a split.23:50, June 22, 2016 (UTC)
I agree with Yata. SMILEs should be seperated from whatever Momo ate, at least for now.20:49, July 24, 2016 (UTC)
We can't split it actually. We don't make separate pages for unnamed Devil Fruits for people we know have Devil Fruits like Kid. Since they're both artificial this covers it until Momo's is named. SeaTerror (talk) 21:04, July 24, 2016 (UTC)
The page would still mention SMILEs, it's just that they get their own page. This article wouldn't be only about Momo's fruit, would it?23:39, July 24, 2016 (UTC)
Well this discussion has gone on for 4 months and if there aren't any new points to add to the discussion we should wrap it up soon. I personally say the pages should be split 16:13, August 22, 2016 (UTC)
Wolf Grip Edit
Momonosuke card says his fruit is a SMILE, and there is no proof from the manga that suggest Caesar came up with the name and not Vegapunk, so it could be the name of every artificial DF. Rhavkin (talk) 17:14, April 8, 2019 (UTC)
Do you have a source that SMILEs are exclusive to Caesar, ST?
That being said, I think the two articles are so different in scope that they can remain as they are, with some points that Vegapunk's DF is also classified as a SMILE. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 17:59, April 9, 2019 (UTC)
Vegapunk's looks like a regular Zoan Devil Fruit while SMILE are like failed transformations, I'd keep them separated too since they're totally different (even the appearance). · 18:13, April 9, 2019 (UTC)