Hundred Beast or BeastsEdit
Where did the "Beasts Pirates" come from?
Kaido's original epithet is "百獣の王" (literally, King of a Hundred Beasts) but the english translation for that becomes simply "King of the Beasts" because that's essentially what it means. I still think we should use include the hundred in his crew name though. 19:16, November 27, 2015 (UTC)
Oh my mistake, Kaido is just "Kaido of the Hundred Beasts". His crew is the "Hundred Beast Pirates". 21:31, November 27, 2015 (UTC)
Green light to move it then?21:33, November 27, 2015 (UTC)
...but as I said before, Kaido's epithet is irrelevant. What it matters is the crew's name in the infoboxes of this chapter, so unless he has anything to say about that, Jopie confirmed it as "Hundred Beast Pirates". leviathan_89 04:29, 28 November, 2015 (UTC)
"Hundred Beast" is the literal translation for both Kaido's epithet and his crew. Just "Beasts" is a more of an idiomatic translation. Which we use is up to us, neither is 100% right or wrong. 05:46, November 28, 2015 (UTC)
I support "Hundred Beasts Pirates". The meaning gets across well in Kaido's epithet (since lion = "king of the beasts", which is what it was going for) but I think here if we just go with "Beasts Pirates" some meaning is lost and it sounds a bit generic. I doubt anyone will think that it literally means there's a hundred of them. Awaikage Talk 13:24, November 28, 2015 (UTC)
I'd prefer hundred beasts as well.17:34, November 28, 2015 (UTC)
Would people please stop adding "Hundred" in front of the crew name before this talk is resolved?19:40, November 28, 2015 (UTC)
I've blocked anon edits since they seemed the ones who keep changing stuff. You can also consider blocking the page to admin-level, but probably this discussion is going to be solved soon, so your choice. leviathan_89 19:45, 28 November, 2015 (UTC)
But is it Hundred Beast or Hundred Beasts?21:32, November 28, 2015 (UTC)
Probably plural, since it's "hundred". But hundred beasts can be misleading, since it's implying the crew has one hundred beastly members. Beasts pretty sums it up, since we're using plural, and even VIZ uses "King of the Beasts" for Kaido, not "Hundred Beasts Kaido", which shows they can accurately read up the "Hyakuju" translation, and modify it to suit their needs.22:18, November 28, 2015 (UTC)
Hundred can also mean a large amount of stuff without specifying quantity.
How bout somebody ask Oda, the author himself what it should be instead of deciding what we think it should be. The manga chapter released says "Hundred Beast Pirates" not Beasts Pirates. It's not really up for debate. But again, maybe someone should ask Oda. 22.214.171.124 06:15, November 29, 2015 (UTC)A Wikia Contributor
I'd say Hundred Beasts sounds better. Beasts Pirates sounds a bit awkward and doesn't convey as much meaning as Hundred Beasts. And AWC, the manga chapter said Hyakujū and we're trying to decide whether to translate it literally or idiomatically. The issue isn't what the name is, but how we should translate it for the wiki. 07:56, November 29, 2015 (UTC)
If we translate it literally, then Kaido's title would also have to change. Chidoriashi Hash is idiomatically meaning "Drunken Staggering Hash", but putting it literally, it means "Thousand Birds Leg Hash". 09:53, November 29, 2015 (UTC)
No it wouldn't. We can choose the best fitting translation case-by-case here. Kaido's title works perfectly as is because it's based on a term used to refer to the lion in real life: "hyakujū no ō", the english equivalent of which is "king of the beasts". Awaikage Talk 12:14, November 29, 2015 (UTC)
There's also an option of using the literal translation (Hundred Beast[s]) but then explaining that it doesn't necessarily mean actually 100 beasts but rather "all kinds of beasts" within the article. 04:52, November 30, 2015 (UTC)
Well, all kinds of beasts is a more satisfying and accurate description of the crew.05:44, November 30, 2015 (UTC)
Can someone add the Viz name? It's the Animal Kingdom Pirates. 126.96.36.199 20:12, November 30, 2015 (UTC)
Okay, VIZ just put a massive out-of-place in translations.02:25, December 1, 2015 (UTC)
It's definitely Hundred Beasts. Hyakujū literally translates to Hundred Beasts. It's the same as Redhaired Shanks's crew. It's named after Kaido's epithet, unless you think it's not Hundred Beast Kaido, Kaido of the Hundred Beasts, but Beast Kaido, or Kaido of the Beasts? Kambetal1 (talk) 09:02, December 12, 2015 (UTC)
Seems to me like JOP's most recent post has the best option: Hundred Beasts, with an explanation in the article. I think there's enough posts to say Hundred Beasts by now. Talk | 17:27, December 12, 2015 (UTC)
Don't be ridiculous. What is Talk page decision? How foolish the "Hyakuju = Hundred Beasts" theory is. You must say kaizoku = 海+賊 = sea thief so it is Hundred Beasts Sea Thieves. --Klobis (talk) 07:04, December 13, 2015 (UTC)
"kaizoku" is a term, and terms have direct translations. "hyakuju no o" is an idiom. Idioms are more open to interpretation, and are subject to contain puns or concepts that can become lost in translation. We have a proper explaination within the article, so I think it's fine. 15:45, December 13, 2015 (UTC)
Just like Kaizoku, Hyakuju is a term, not an idiom. 【百獣】多くのけもの。すべてのけだもの。(三省堂 大辞林). You say lion is King of Hundred Beasts? This means Luffy is Barley Straw Luffy, Zoro is Sea Thieves Hunt, Nami is Mud Stick Cat. You must insist on Barley Straw Crew, not Straw Hat Crew, since you ignored what the word means. --Klobis (talk) 05:50, December 14, 2015 (UTC)
Ohh, I see your point. So Hyakuju no O is an idiom, but just Hyakuju alone is a term written as "100 beasts" and defined as "many or all beasts", much like how Dorobo is written as "Mud stick" but defined as "burglar". Sorry about that, guys! In that case, "Beasts Pirates" is probably slightly more accurate, even though, unlike Japanese, once the "beasts" is taken out of the "King of Beasts" context in English, it just means "more than one beast" (how many beasts? 2? 3? 80? 50,000?).
In fact, the only real "correct translation" would be "Many Beasts Pirates", "All Beasts Pirates", or even "Hundreds of Beasts Pirates", but I think having that explained within the article is more than enough, since we have a rather unique case here. I actually wouldn't mind Hyakuju Pirates, kind of like how we just left Kuja untranslated, but that might just end up unnecessarily confusing a lot of people, so Beasts Pirates would be my next choice to go along with Kaido's epithet. 06:04, December 16, 2015 (UTC)
Filled. 02:08, December 17, 2015 (UTC)
So we're cleared? Beasts Pirates?05:47, December 17, 2015 (UTC)
Moved it, now we just need to change all the associate links.00:41, December 18, 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure if anyone's noticed, but in the background of the jolly roger, behind the skull and crossbones, there are two thick outward curving bars. Now, I'm not literate in kanji or katakana, but perhaps those bars, maybe together with the skull and/or crossbones, may form a Japanese character, possibly a word? Can anyone check?(Shadoguardian (talk) 09:08, March 8, 2016 (UTC))
Shogun of WanoEdit
I think it has been said that the "Shogun of Wano" is an ally to Kaido. Shouldn't he appear in the "Allies and Affiliates" part under Crew Members? Or does he need a name reveal first or something? Captain of the Thousand Beasts - Kaidovich9X (talk) 10:15, March 12, 2016 (UTC)
The latter.10:21, March 12, 2016 (UTC)
Actually, I have tons of them. Pasting them here: http://read.powermanga.org/content/comics/one_piece_5251c1a821656/817_0_raizou_of_the_mist_57e60e5b935a2/01.png http://read.powermanga.org/content/comics/one_piece_5251c1a821656/821_0_understood_570e3305b4bc2/05.png
http://read.powermanga.org/content/comics/one_piece_5251c1a821656/809_0_master_nekomamushi_5711a71415be0/12.png Zeckopacho (talk) 17:24, October 25, 2016 (UTC)
Or they could just wear horns because Kaido has horns and it's a thing with his crew. It's speculation and stays off the page.
It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 17:26, October 25, 2016 (UTC)
I don't know this two horns business signify anything if it does at all but in the page it is stated that all pleasures wear one horned hats. It is clearly wrong and should be changed. Zeckopacho (talk) 17:32, October 25, 2016 (UTC)
Only one link works, btw.17:58, October 25, 2016 (UTC)
Yeah I see what went wrong now, you pasted a whole bunch of them without spaces inbetween. But it looks like you're right. Anyone else opposes?18:06, October 25, 2016 (UTC)
All Star vs DisasterEdit
Shouldn't All Star be a section for the members template instead of Disaster? 188.8.131.52 15:07, October 27, 2018 (UTC)
All Star was used in Jack's infobox while Disaster was just stated by Sheepshead though. 184.108.40.206 20:36, October 27, 2018 (UTC)
Correct, and more accurately, in both chapters 808 and 921, Jack was introduced in his introduction box as Beasts Pirates All-Star (百獣海賊団大看板 Hyakujū Kaizokudan Ōkanban?), similarly how both Sheepshead and Hawkins were introduced as Beasts Pirates Headliner (百獣海賊団真打ち Hyakujū Kaizokudan Shin'uchi?).
What's more interesting is that there's connecting theme behind shin'uchi and ōkanban:
- 真打ち, Shin'uchi(literally meaning "true hit") is person with highest rank in Rakugo, a traditional Japanese solo performing art.
- 大看板, Ōkanban(literal meaning "great signboard) is generally first-rate influential performer (theatre, film, etc.), leading star, draw, attraction
Now, while it would be wise to wait for introduction of another "Disaster", it is very lkely that Kaidō's right hand men are both "All-Stars" and "Disasters", former being actual rank and latter being additional nickname.JouXIII (talk)
Trivia - Japanese Threate Edit
As some have already mentioned, Oda seems be developing a theme when it comes the names of certain positions within the crew. I was hoping that someone might be willing to add the below section to the page's trivia, if people think this would be useful. 220.127.116.11 02:32, January 4, 2019 (UTC)
- In keeping with the crew’s association with Wano Country, a country inspired by Feudal Japan, many senior positions within the crew take their names from traditional Japanese performing arts or types of theatre.
- All-Stars take their name from the word Ōkanban (大看板? lit. “large signboard”), which has come to denote a first-rate influential performer or leading star of theatre/film, due to the custom of writing such a person’s name larger than those of other performers on billboards and other signage.
- Headliner is derived from Shin'uchi (真打? lit. “true hit”), a term used to describe a person of the highest ability or popularity in Rakugo, a traditional Japanese solo performing art.
- The strongest of the Headliners, the Flying Six, are named after a form of dramatic exit in Kabuki called Roppō (六方? lit. “six directions”) that involves exaggerated movements of the performer’s hands and feet towards north, west, south and east, as well as up and down. Tobiroppō (飛び六方? lit. “flying six directions”) is a particularly famous variation from the play “Kanjinchō” performed by one of the lead characters, the warrior Benkei.
As mentioned in Chapter 943, is Kaido's main goal for the Beasts Pirates to become the strongest pirate crew in the world, or did they already became the strongest pirate crew?Mohammedabri2312 (talk) 10:51, May 24, 2019 (UTC)
Currently, this page as well as Jack, Queen and King make a distinction between "Disaster" and "All-Star". However, it appears that not only do these both refer to the exact same group of three people, but that "Disasters" is not actually a title or rank at all. The only instance where it is seemingly used is Chapter 808 when Sheepshead introduces Jack. However, the line in the Viz translation is this: "One of his three closest associates, each of whom is named after a disaster!!" Which makes sense as all 3 have epithets referencing a disaster. Jack's introduction box in the same chapter labels him an All-Star, and that is the term that has been used in all instances ever since.
One Piece Magazine Vol.6 says this about All-Stars (according to EtenBoby): "A Reign of Fear by the Three "AllStar": There are three executives who are like the embodiment of Kaido’s thoughts. They are called the "AllStars", and like Kaido they have a huge body, they have unwavering confidence in their strength and uses power to control everything." Confirming that All-Stars are three people comprising of Jack, Queen, King. "Disasters" is not a group within All-Stars, each All-Star is simply named after a disaster. Awaikage Talk 15:16, June 27, 2019 (UTC)
crew size Edit
the big mama pirates may appear to be the same size true but until there confirmation that they are it is pure speculation to say they are the same crew size Chapter 955 clear states the beast pirates have 20,000 members they are the largest crew in series to appear until it is said Big Mom Pirates or any other crew have same amount stopFacts over opinions 22:04, September 12, 2019 (UTC)
The only objective thing here is that the Beasts Pirates have around 20,000 members, saying it is the largest crew is speculative as it has not been stated in any way. Aguacate (talk) 22:06, September 12, 2019 (UTC)
i said it is the largest crew to appear so far there is not a single other crew with numbers like that and it has not been stated in any way that the beast piratss have the largest amount of devil fruit user on a pirate crew either should that also be removed Facts over opinions 22:18, September 12, 2019 (UTC)
To the user above please add your signature, also I agree with Agucate. All we know is that they have 20,000 members that alone doesn't prove that they are the largest crew. Saying that they are the largest crew just because of that number is nothing more than a speculation and not fact, unless the manga states they are the largest crew. I would say to not add that trivia unless the manga otherwise says they are the largest crew, and user Kaido already removed the BMP largest crew trivia as well. I would just not add this kind of trivia yet unless we either find out how large the BMP are, or the manga reveals which crew is the largest.--Opera298 (talk) 22:29, September 12, 2019 (UTC)
It is not speculation when it cleared said how many people are members of the crew the beast pirates are said to have up to 20,000 crew members no other crew who has had there numbers revealed or mentioned have anything close to those numbers this clear makes the beast pirates the largest crew shown in the series
the big mama pirates have never had there actual crew members amount said in anime or in manga u have your self have said by appearnce only the big mama pirates seem to have the same amount until it is said hkw many members they actually have u cant say they seem have same amount of members as the beast pirates .
if your going say that it has be said they are the largest crew then u also have say it has to be stated the beast pirates have most devil fruit user Facts over opinions 22:57, September 12, 2019 (UTC)
Again to the user above add your signature so we know who it is, and yes it is a speculation. Just because we know the numbers for the Beasts Pirates and not the other Yonko crews that doesn't mean they are the largest crew, until we either find out how large the other Yonko crews are or if the manga reveals which Yonko crew is the largest then you saying the Beasts Pirates are the largest just because they have 20,000 members is nothing more than a speculation. This type of trivia for now shouldn't be added until we either find out how large the other Yonko crews are or the manga reveals which Yonko crew is the largest, also stop saying facts over opinions because what you are saying is nothing more than an opinion and not fact.--Opera298 (talk) 23:46, September 12, 2019 (UTC)
Again i said the largest crew so far meaning there possibly a larger crew then the beast pirates if your going quote some one then fully quote them it is not speculation when only haveing current information the beast pirates have been revealed to have 500 devil fruit user and over 20,000 members it is not speculation to belive they are the largest pirate crew in series revealed same way it isnt speculation to belive big mama family is largest family because they have 132 family members are u going complain and say woth put mamga saying they are it isnt true are u going to need a list of every family in one piece? or how about marines it is said they are largest sea organztion in tbe series are u going say that is speculation as well ? dude facts over opinons is my signature The facts are the beast pirates have 20,000 crew members know one else has been said to have includeing fellow yonko to have same amount of members.so u less it is cleearly stated or another group numbers are stated the beast pirates are the largest crew so far in the series. that is a fact you saying it looks like big mama pirates have same amount is an opnionFacts over opinions 20:30, September 13, 2019 (UTC)
I would also like to see what other users think about this and whether they agree if this kind of trivia should be added or not, if everyone is in favor for this kind of trivia to be added then I have no problem with it even though I'm against it.--Opera298 (talk) 23:56, September 12, 2019 (UTC)
Stop reverting back-and-forth until you completely come to a consensus on this matter. I've locked the page for the time being. Saying they have the largest crew based on their 20,000 members is both speculation and outright incorrect: the New Fishman Pirates had 100,000 total before their downfall.08:15, September 24, 2019 (UTC)
ok 1 saying its specluations that there crew is largest in series right now based on number given is like saying its speculation that big mama family is largest do to number given for them or that beast pirates have the most devil fruit users of your going say this is not allowed then remove those edits from those trivia sections. 2 the new fishman pirates are no longer a pirate crew so why would they are not the largest pirate crew in the series right now.Facts over opinions 18:21, September 24, 2019 (UTC)
What you are saying is again nothing but pure speculation, it doesn't matter if the New Fish-Man Pirates are gone they still had 100,000 members and that's more than the Beasts Pirates. Big Mom's family being the largest is not speculation because so far no other families have come close to being as large as the Charlotte Family, and as for the Beasts Pirates having the most devil fruit users that's mainly because of the SMILEs and so far no other pirate crew have come close to having that many devil fruit users but if you have a problem with the Beasts Pirates having the most devil fruit users trivia then make a separate topic for that in the talk page.
You are badly trying to compare the other two trivia to the Beasts Pirates crew size trivia because when it comes to those other two trivia as I mentioned before so far no other families have come close being as large as the Charlotte Family and no other pirate crews have come close to having the most devil fruit users as the Beasts Pirates, but when it comes to the Beasts Pirates crew size you have the New Fish-Man Pirates who had more members than the Beasts Pirates that alone makes the Beasts Pirates crew size trivia both a speculation and incorrect and again it doesn't matter if the New Fish-Man Pirates are gone they still had more members.
Also one last thing when someone disagrees with your edit you leave the page as it was before and take it to the talk page if you want the issue solved, if the issue still isn't solved then we wait for more users and see what they have to say. Just because the issue isn't solved doesn't mean you go and add your edit to the page again, I told you multiple times to leave the page as it was before until the issue is solved and to not start this edit war.--Opera298 (talk) 20:38, September 24, 2019 (UTC)
okay let me get this straight you yourself have said and I quote.(Saying that they are the largest crew just because of that number is nothing more than a speculation and not fact, unless the manga states they are he 100k were slaves, not actual crewmembers. ) but now u want to say( Big Mom's family being the largest is not speculation because so far no other families have come close to being as large as the Charlotte Family, and as for the Beasts Pirates having the most devil fruit users that's mainly because of the SMILEs ) dude i am not saying this to be mean but u sound like a a hypocrite pick a side and stick to it dont try one of those people who flip flop both sides. again i said currently because the beast pirates are an actual active crew right now the new fish man are not they disbanded and they did not have
have 100,000 they had 70,000 crew members and 30,000 slaves slaves do not count as actual crew mates but back to my point currently the beast pirates have the largest overrall the new fishman pirates had more but currently present tense the beast pirates have more dude learn the differnce
if person only talking about something in present unless mentioned in some way the past has no bearing. dude i told u leave the edit alone until a decision or a new guideline made u chose to start a edit war u are not the voice of this wiki until a decision was madd u should left as it was so i am asking u to do 2 things 1 understand the differnce between cutrrent and overall 2 pick a sideFacts over opinions 22:02, September 24, 2019 (UTC)Facts over opinions 22:04, September 24, 2019 (UTC)
- Chapter 632 says the 30,000 humans are slaves. The 70,000 fish-men aren't mentioned to be. Dragonus Nesha (talk) 21:14, September 24, 2019 (UTC)
The 30,000 human slaves still count as members of the New Fish-Man Pirates, and even if you don't want to count the human slaves as being actual members you still have the 70,000 fish-men who were actual members of the crew.--Opera298 (talk) 22:05, September 24, 2019 (UTC)
slaves can not count as crew members if they did that would mean basically every toy from dressrosa was a member of the donquixote piratesFacts over opinions 22:10, September 24, 2019 (UTC)
Dude can you not edit properly? Stop adding your comment next to mine and removing other users comments, make a space when you want to add your own comment. The slaves do count as actual members because Hody himself counted them as being members, and like I said before even if you don't count the slaves as being actual members you still have the 70,000 fish-men who were actual members of the crew.--Opera298 (talk) 22:15, September 24, 2019 (UTC)
are u high or something? first of all u want discuss those slaves count a crew memebers either take it to the salvery talk page or new fishman talk page this not the page dude and this discussion is about crew size anything else unrelated take it some were else. second a slave can not count as a crew member they have no choice no free will theya lower then property doesnt matter if hody call them a member they are not and i can not believe that i have explain this. p.s u said the key word they were not any more because the crew no longer existFacts over opinions 00:06, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
Yeah I’m not arguing with someone who is going to insult me just because things can’t go your way and other users disagree with you, if Hody counts those slaves as crew members then they are crew members and it doesn’t matter if the New Fish-Man Pirates are gone they still had more members than the Beasts Pirates.--Opera298 (talk) 00:45, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
ya i am done talking to a person who actually thinks slaves count as crew memembers and who either doesnt understand what past tense mean or just doesnt care and it does matter a person can not just say some one is a part of there crewFacts over opinions 03:15, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
Putting number comparisons aside, it doesn't matter if half the planet's population is in the Beasts Pirates, if there is no explicit statement saying he has the highest number of crew members, then it is fan-guessing to put that trivia there.00:54, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
then u have to not alloow this on any page then if u need the managa to say exatcly say the size or who has and who doesnt of something then from now on no matter the page unless it is actually said it never said big mama family is the largest in the series it never said beast pirates have the most devil fruit users if this how things going be from now on then lets stop it compeletlyFacts over opinions 03:15, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
I agree but To love this is saying that Big Mom’s family being the largest family trivia and the Beasts Pirates having the most devil fruit users trivia should also be removed because apparently they are also speculations, just wondering on your thoughts about that Yata.--Opera298 (talk) 01:06, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
I don't see why this is an issue. The NFP slaves are not an issue because there are still 70,000 fishmen, exactly 3.5 times the number of Beasts Pirates. Thus, there should be no question that this trivia doesn't belong here. Any issues with other trivia can be discussed on the talk pages of the articles in question. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 02:03, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
It seems like most agree that this trivia shouldn't be added, hopefully this topic can end now and I agree with Kaido that any other issues with other trivia can be discussed on their talk pages.--Opera298 (talk) 02:32, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
the new fishman are no longer a pirate crew i am not talking about overall because no beast pirates wouldnt have been largest crew no but presently they with info we have right now the beast pirates can be said to be largest crew in the series right now. if hard for u understand lets put like this if i said blackbeard pirates have the most yonko commanders( or what ever general term that works for them] or something would i have to count whitbeard crew who had 16 commanders or becauss i am talking about present tense could i stick to the facta currenlth in the infromation.Facts over opinions 03:15, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
I agree with such trivia of "largest" crew or family is too speculative to be added. For all we know, there could be an even larger family out there, or the Marines making their own artificial Devil Fruit user army in secret. Without definitive confirmation, they should all be removed.03:11, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
so from now this not allowed on any page right?Facts over opinions 03:15, September 25, 2019 (UTC)Facts over opinions 03:16, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
Yes, or at least bring it up in a talk page if you think it is truly worthy. Truly worthy, otherwise it may well be ignored.04:22, September 25, 2019 (UTC)
ya what is known is the beast pirates have 20,000 crew members and 500 devil fruit user that would currently make them largest crew in the series right now the big mama family have 132 family member that would currently make them largest family but sense we dont know the size of every crew or family it be speculation to say size of any thing unless said extacly by the mangaFacts over opinions 05:03, September 26, 2019 (UTC)
Beacuse only a hypocrite or a fool would be ok with this type of speculation for one page but not for anotherFacts over opinions 03:59, September 28, 2019 (UTC)
Renaming Article to Animal Kingdom PiratesEdit
The English sub of episode 912 just came out and it captions Jack's as a Lead Performer of the Animal Kingdom Pirates. We should change the names to those. Alpha Omega Plus (talk) 02:47, December 1, 2019 (UTC)
English Sub from FUNimation is secondary to the original Japanese meaning.05:57, December 1, 2019 (UTC)
- I think what they meant is to change the Official English Name section of the infobox where it says they're called "Beasts Pirates" in the Funimation subs, seeing as how they're no longer called that in the Funimation subs.DeeeFoo (talk) 23:25, January 10, 2020 (UTC)
- And you can't just rename something this big without a discussion first. If FUNimation never took onto subbing One Piece, the term "Animal Kingdom Pirates" would never have been extracted from the original name "Hyakuju Kaizokudan". 06:02, December 1, 2019 (UTC)
This would also raise an issue with Kaido's epithet. We would be calling him "Animal Kingdom" Kaido if we changed it. There are multiple ways to interpret Hyakuju. We need to keep it as is until something more official comes along.06:40, December 5, 2019 (UTC)