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Logia[edit source]

782 does not seem to confirm that it is Paramecia. Chapter 741 shows Usopp cutting Trebol and Trebol shows the characteristics of a Logia. 14:38, June 5, 2015 (UTC)

782 pretty much confirms that it's not Logia so those claims probably need to be removed. Trebol taunts Luffy for thinking that it was and it appears while most of his apparent body is composed of goop, it's not actually his real (tiny/skinny) body that was inside. 00:48, April 3, 2015 (UTC) It is a Paramecia like Magellan's Fruit look at the most recent chapter ----

If we're "hinting" we're not sure if it's logia then we should remove it from logia category -__- Vaztalk 14:00,2/5/2014

okay — LG (tc) 14:04, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

I don't know, his body sure seemed Logia-ish. When he fell from the roof his body squished on the impact and in the recent chapter 737 his body elongated. FirePit (talk) 14:06, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

It's logia, way too obvious logia.  Staw-Hat Luffy  Talk  14:09, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

I agree it's logia. I was just pointing out the irony.Vaztalk 14:10,2/5/2014

Have to agree, he turned into it. It's obvious. He looked like liquid. As DP himself said

'We don't need confirmation, to see a longarm tribe member, if he has double joint arms'.

Nobody700 (talk) 14:12, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

But we haven't seen his body transform AT ALL. All we've seen is his cloak. I'm reverting until we get confirmation. It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 15:07, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

But we did? it just LOOKS like it's only his cloak, just like with Caeser. Look at the recent chapter, when he first appears he totaly bends out of shape while talking to while leaning over to CavendishFirePit (talk) 16:58, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

We saw his whole body drip down from the side of the tower or wherever he was when Baby 5 called him.DancePowderer Talk 17:07, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

We saw his body covered in his coat, not his body. I'm just saying, it doesn't look like a Logia to me. It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 17:08, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Maybe it's something like Diamante's fruit. Like everything he touches can become sticky. After all logias can turn into substances and last time I checked "sticky" can refer to many substances not a particular one. Damn, I'm having second thoughts now...Vaztalk 17:26,2/5/2014

Yeah it doesn't seem like a logia to me either. All the logias so far have been something specific like fire, smoke or ice. This is just "a sticky substance". Awaikage Talk 17:32, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

There isn't a chance the name could also mean glue or something, is there?DancePowderer Talk 17:40, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

It's obviously a Logia but right thing is waiting.Salamancc (talk) 17:53, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

"Sticky"-what? Sticky mud? Sticky slime? Sticky alone is no element. Yata Talk to me 02:41, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

DP, it's not Glue. It would be called Gū Gū no mi then. I asked a guy who knows Japanese about a glue devil fruit.

Nobody700 (talk) 02:52, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

We've seen him break his body-shape when entering the throne room so we can assume he can transform to this "sticky" stuff. Must be a logia. Sewil 10:10, 6/2/14

Or it's a coat made of glue that's concealing his body. We have not seen his actualy body change like we did with Caribou. It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 19:02, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

I agree that everything pinpoints in the Logia category but what confuses me is the element it uses. All Logia DFs correspond to natural elements (sand, fire, ice, gas, etc) but that one has a sticky substance. What natural element could that be?

What I'm trying to say is that although the physical characteristics of the user pinpoint to the Logia category, the element of the fruit itself seems closer to the Doru Doru no Mi and Doku Doku no Mi type of devil fruit.

So I personally am not entirely sure that it is a Logia.
LASARO GINJOU TALK 14:05, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

The Abilites seem to be more Logia based rather than Paramecia.Besty17Talk 14:39, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

That doesn't quite answer my question. If it is a Logia then it has a natural element. What element is this then?
LASARO GINJOU TALK 14:46, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

It is indeed stated that all Logias are connected to a natural element, the same way it is stated that only Logia - users can rematerialize. Beto Beto no Mi is confusing, but if you ask me, the second statement is stronger than the first. So I think, if he can rematerialize, he should have eaten a Logia, even if this Logia is not connected with a natural substance. Of course this discussion is still not well-established. I think we should wait without categorizing the fruit. K the AWC (talk) 18:54, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

I have to agree. I'm split on what it could be as well. Discretion is the better part of valor. Let's wait until we either get an explanation or see him fight. Either one of those should clear things up.DancePowderer Talk 19:12, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

Also, I would like to include the snouts he has which seems like an effect of the fruit. It is similar to Magellan's diarrhea caused by the Doku Doku no Mi. So far Logias have not shown such side-effects as far as I remember.
As the ones before me said, waiting for confirmation is the right choice.
LASARO GINJOU TALK 20:00, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

yes, let us wait--Quoth The Raven "Nevermore" 22:52, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

Alright, we decided to leave it unknown, so this doesn't need to be an active discussion anymore. JustSomeDude...  Talk | 03:13, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

This is just my opinion but I think its Paramecia because its probably similar to the Doku Doku no mi.

Primarch11 07:34, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

If you ask me, chance that Beta Beta no Mi is Logia type Devil Fruit are 95 %...

Yeah, it's a Logia. 11:20, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Not necessarily. The Doru Doru no Mi could do the same thing. Just wait for him to fight for Pete's sake.DancePowderer Talk 11:21, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

So Mr. 3 could spin his head around? Such as trebol spining his head around on his body where his head was upside down while he was looking at robin, how could a Paramecia do that?... 13:20, February 19, 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Rukiryo (contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

I would say he's a Logia but we have to wait until he fights be patient Admiral Sugar (talk) 18:23, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Last chapter kinda showed it as a Logia but I'm not a fan of speculating a DF type before its confirmed Brocodile Talk 18:46, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

No, it's safe to call it a Logia from what we saw last chapter. http://readms.com/r/one_piece/741/2292/7 The middle panel is all the confirmation we need.DancePowderer Talk 21:56, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Yup it's crystal clear now. Confirmed.Vaztalk 21:58,3/12/2014

^ It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 21:59, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Its a Paremecia guys just like the Doku Doku No Mi. Magellan could do everything with the Doku Doku No Mi that Trebol could do with Beta Beta No Mi. Al Logia fruits are linked to an element. What kind of element is Stick? 18:41, March 21, 2014 (UTC)

It's clearly a logia. Trebol got cut in half and then his body parts reconnected without any evident damage. Magellan couldn't do that.Vaztalk 18:59,3/21/2014

How do we know Magellan couldn't? Also how do we know Trebol isn't using his slime to augment his size? If it's Logia, Usopp is going to have to learn Haki. Thats not gonna happen. I suspect you'll be proved wrong in future chapters now that Usopp has manned up and is finally fighting him. Look at all the Logia, they're named after elements. Stick is no element.

Njb36 (talk) 19:15, March 21, 2014 (UTC)

Magellan's fruit is a paramecia. That's how we know he couldn't do it. Glint isn't an element either, and yet we have Kizaru. Care to argue those? If I must answer your how's Usopp gonna fight question, I suggest you read what the fruit is capable of.DancePowderer Talk 00:53, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Logias don't have to always be an element, more often than not they just happened to be an element any ways. Magellan isn't a Logia because he can't become poison himself, he only coated himself in it. This is where the anime screwed up and made it look he made his entire body poison. If he could do stuff like how Trebol just becomes sticky stuff and jumps in that form it would be obvious, but no Magellan has to create a venom road/highway for him to travel through like a slide. Anima40 (talk) 01:00, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Magellan is no Logia, that's a certain. But Trebol is still undetermined at best. After all, how do we know if that's not a clone made out of the sticky substance, like Ikaros' ink clone? Even if it is the real Trebol, he has yet to pull himself back together, what if he just dies in the upcoming chapter after an irreversible bifurcation? Hey, Ace and Monet died, unexpected though they were. Anticlimax though it may be, Usopp may have just killed Trebol in one strike. Yata Talk to me 01:09, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Much as that won't happen, part of me really wants it to have happened now. XD

It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 01:17, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

I'm just hopiing that the sticky substance gets named eventually. Anima40 (talk) 01:23, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

I should clarify that I think its unprofessional of the wiki to put up that its a Logia without confirmation in the manga or anime yet. Its not been proven as fact. By putting up assumptions, no matter how 'sure' you are, you undermine the reliability of the wiki. Also the fruit is definitely undetermined but i think its going to turn out to be a Paramecia. The fruit has been confirmed to be called the Stick-Stick fruit. Stick can not be described as any interpretation of the word 'element' and thats the primary trait of a Logia, the only one they all have in common, they represent elements. The 'users can all become intangible' trait is secondary as there is an exception to this rule i.e. Blackbeard.

Njb36 (talk) 01:47, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

(sigh) Swamp isn't an element either. It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 01:56, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Read how the wiki describes Logia fruits and at the top you'll see that it says they are either elements OR a force of nature. Anima40 (talk) 01:59, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah agreed Anima, and element obviously doesnt mean element as in the periodic table. You can interpret 'element' in different ways...

Njb36 (talk) 02:03, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Well, Trebol's all okay again in the next chapter, so it's a Logia. Yata Talk to me 20:56, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Maybe the sticky stuff he is generating is Sap?SageM (talk) 21:46, October 16, 2014 (UTC)SageM

I don't want to say I told you so, but oh look it's his coat.

It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 10:50, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

So, he's just a skinny man coated with snot-like stuff? Like Mgelan's venom demon? 15:28, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Stop all this nonsense, the beta beta no mi is a logia type, he was cut to pieces by one of Law's attack and during his fight with Usopp he was cut in half, Magellan couldn't get cut to pieces nor in half despite his paramecia type devil fruit being a substance producing type, you guys are always waiting for big revelations in each chapter so you end forgetting about all the previous ones, if you have doubt there's a picture on this very wiki that proves it, on the ope ope no mi page, the picture of  the radio knife attack, no matter how slim he might be lol there's no avoiding such an attack thanks to your lack of fat. 08:24, April 4, 2015 (UTC)

Ignoring the unsigned rant above me, to call it unknown is to acknowledge the existence of a fourth fruit type. That in and of itself is speculation worthy of belonging in a bad fanfic. The choice to call it a Paramecia is one that is based solely on factual evidence presented in the manga and not personal opinion. Based on what we know, it can't be a Logia, and it sure as hell ain't a Zoan. If only one option remains, then that option is the correct one, even if we aren't spoon-fed the answer.DancePowderer Talk 20:54, April 21, 2015 (UTC)

Artificial Devil Fruit[edit source]

Could it be that he has eaten an artificially modified devil fruit perhaps? And about the zoan matter,this might be a different case, so a logia/paramecia maybe.  GH  Talk  18:46, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

If that was the case his fruit's name would be "snail snail fruit" or something, I think that can be ruled our fairy easily FirePit (talk) 22:24, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

In the pictures from ten years ago, he looked like he already nad his ability and, as far as we know, artificial devil fruits didn't exist back then.Vaztalk 23:00,2/19/2014

another good point FirePit (talk) 23:32, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Not 100% a Logia[edit source]

Not that I doubt Trebol is a Logia, but there's still a chance he's a Paramecia. If Doflamingo who's a Paramecia can live beheaded, Trebol's fruit might have a gimmick that allowed him to survive Usopp's attack (like sticking his body back together). So I'm saying Beta Beta no Mi shouldn't be listed as a Logia until there's some solid confirmation. Will-O-Wisp (talk)

Oh for the love of crap, the outcome of one fruit's type does not affect that of another. We know what Doffy's is, we know what Trebol's is, end of story.DancePowderer Talk 13:46, April 15, 2014 (UTC)

No we don't know what Trebol's is. We didn't see him become sticky goo and reform, so we don't know how he didn't die after being cut in three and we don't have a confirmation that he's a Logia. As for Doflamingo, he merely provides an example of Paramecias sometimes acting like Logias do, and he's not even the first one (well, he is the first one who can live as a head). That's what I mean. Will-O-Wisp (talk)

We have seen Trebol extend his body in a typical logia user way. Also, we don't know for sure if Doflamingo's survival is an attribute of his own devil fruit, so your reference is invalid.Vaztalk 15:34,4/15/2014

can't we just leave it logia and change it once we found out it miraculously turns out to be something else :/ FirePit (talk) 20:26, April 15, 2014 (UTC)

That's the plan.DancePowderer Talk 21:19, April 15, 2014 (UTC)

While I do believe Trebol borders Logia, the fact of his "sticky" being difficult to consider as an element or force of nature is a conflicting point. Gimmicks are possible, such as sticking back together or a sticky clone, etc., but yes, let's wait. Just wanna get it all out. Yata Talk to me 03:30, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

Most of the the other Logias aren't directly named after their element either, just felt like throwing this in FirePit (talk) 03:34, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

Paramecia[edit source]

Judging from Chapter 782, it seems that Trebol is a Paramecia and not a Logia. Luffy's Haki attack didn't harm him, and it seems that the mucus was created by him as a protective barrier, as seen on the last page of the chapter. So I think it's a Paramecia. Agree? Trebol did say that he was "no mere Logia." Kaido | Remnants of My Broken Sig 12:18, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Yep, pretty clear he's a paramecia. Awaikage Talk 12:32, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

I have my doubts, because when Law cut Trebol using Radio Knife, we can see that Trebol was cut in sections, and the head's section was completely separated of his arm and leg's sections. But it's ok Oda. (I'm sorry, I know that my English isn't good). NGP (talk) 13:11, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that we can definitely say he is Paramecia now, for example vs. Usopp. --Klobis (talk) 13:26, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

"Do you think I'm logia?" clearly suggests that he's not.

  • Radio Knife is an Ope Ope technique. It's same as Law's regular cuts except the victim can't reattach themselves.
  • In the fight against Usopp we never see his body parts in the split off sections.

Awaikage Talk 13:35, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

We should hold off any changes to Paramecia until we have thoroughly discussed this. It looks unprofessional, to say the least, having the fruit listed as Paramecia in some articles and as Logia in others. MasterDeva (talk) 13:40, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

I admit it is hard to explain the whole Usopp cutting him thing. Especially since his beard was cut off, so that would mean his beard is out of mucus too? Or he grows it reeeaally fast. Or it was just an error. But I think what he says in the recent chapter confirms it being Paramecia. Aurora[1] | Yes? 13:43, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

So basically we are saying that he uses his fruit like Mr. 3... however remember that he can do that even if it's logia. So to sum up, did we have ever see him change form or doing something that only a logia can do? I wouldn't consider much what he says until we have a better translation available yet... early translations are usually messed up. leviathan_89 13:55, 2 April, 2015 (UTC)

Mangastream's translation of the line is "Am I really Logia?" and not something about "mere Logia". I think what is happening here is that he's just trying to trick Luffy into thinking he's not a Logia, because all of Luffy's punches missed his true body.

But in 741, when Usopp cut him in half, there's no way that he could have missed Trebol's body. Even Pica's logia-esque power still meant that his body could not be separated. The only Paramecia we've ever seen that actually allow the user to separate their bodies are Buggy's and Very Good's. And if the Beta Beta no Mi is about producing mucus, it likely does not also have a separate ability to allow the user to separate themselves. JustSomeDude...  Talk | 14:18, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Actually, someone at Arlong Park drew an illustration about that. Again, we never saw his body parts in the split off sections. Awaikage Talk 14:26, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Oh wow you're actually discussing this. This site is even worse than its reputation. AfroPowah (talk) 14:25, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

I know right, we're such assholes for discussing an unclear situation. Aurora[1] | Yes? 14:42, April 2, 2015 (UTC)
It was outright stated that he wasn't a logia in this chapter. There is nothing to talk about here. AfroPowah (talk) 14:46, April 2, 2015 (UTC)
Well apparently there is, looking at the length of this talk page. Don't like it? Get out then. Aurora[1] | Yes? 14:56, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

I think I can help explain his fruit.  After reading Chapter 782 I too thought his fruit was a paramecia like Magellans'.  However if you remember Usopp was able to cut him into thirds, it means he must be a Logia.  I think basically he is a Logia who uses his fruit to make his body appear larger than it is in order to trick his opponents.  He was trying to trick Luffy, but Law knows Trebol so he knew to get a clean hit in you have to hit him right down the middle with Haki.  Usopp's attack didn't work because he doesn't have Armament Haki, and Luffy's attack didn't work because he missed his true body.  Law hit him right in the chest which is why he bled. 14:34, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Trebol is quite tall, and given the placement of his head in the image I linked, I don't think even his skinny body could fit like that into the smaller section. He would also have to know exactly where the cut was going to be and move, at which point, he could have just dodged it normally.

There's way too much speculation involved here, so I'd say the only viable options are "leave it as Logia" or change it to "unknown type". There is not enough evidence in my mind to conclude in favor of paramecia. This is exactly the kind of thing which will be answered either in a subsequent chapter, or an SBS. JustSomeDude...  Talk | 14:41, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Here's one simple reason why he cannot be a logia: If he were a logia, Law would've had to use Haki to cut him. But Law cut him by using "Takt" to levitate his severed arm that was holding his sword. Thus, he couldn't have used Haki - unless you're going to claim that Haki can now be imbued "wirelessly"?

Unknown type would make no sense. If it's not a Logia or Zoan, then it's a Paramecia. Awaikage Talk 14:45, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Why would that be an issue? Law can walk around without his heart in his body, so why would Haki not be usable through his Devil Fruit? Smoker can use Haki on his fists after he sends them flying with his Devil Fruit, so why couldn't Law use Haki on his body parts that are affected by his DF? 14:52, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

He just wanna trick Luffy, it is obviously Logia because Usopp sliced him to three pieces. However, how can Law's attack be imbued with Haki without touching it directly. His arm was cut off and his arm doesn't possess his soul or whatever. I dont know maybe Haki can be transferred remotely or it isnt Logia and Trebol was avoiding attack similar to illustration. 14:47, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

I was late due to edit conflict. -- 14:49, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Definitely he is trying to trick other about his power nature, going with the logia theory, I believe the anon's explanation fits in (knowing how is real body is like, you can see that Luffy is off the target). With the paramecia theory, there are pretty big doubts with Usop attack. This will surely be cleared later, either in chapters or SBS, but for now I'm leaning against it being logia, although I'm still not sure. leviathan_89 14:59, 2 April, 2015 (UTC)

It's obvious now that it's Paramecia. After all, how can mucus be an element? He just used the mucus to cover his body to create a shell (gross), like how Mr. 3 created a Candle Champion. Yata Talk to me 15:00, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Meh, I don't know, now I'm leaning towards paramecia too... but still, the point is that there are more question marks with that Usop thing then anything else... if you say it's a logia, you can come up with explanations for the other doubts: "how can mucus be an element?" - Well what about the swamp? "He just used the mucus to cover his body to create a shell" - why do you think a logia can't do that too? leviathan_89 15:15, 2 April, 2015 (UTC)

I think it's important to understand how Logia works. You may be able to change the size and shape of your body, but it's still your body. (See the Smoker v. Vergo fight.) In other words, you cannot "miss" a Logia's body by striking an extension of their element; that tactic would only work for a Paramecia.

The other quality of a Logia is that they effectively have no limit to the amount of their element that they can produce. The fact that Trebol would even try to put his arm back on implies that he either only has a specific amount of it (which he changes the shape and size of for attacks) or that he can only produce at a certain rate (so he could not re-grow an arm fast enough to keep fighting). 15:33, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Dai Enkai Entei.png

I wouldn't be so sure about that though... when Ace make this kind flames, is not using his body, so striking them won't do you any good. Generally, logia users change their body, but they are not limited to use only their body to strike. leviathan_89 15:38, 2 April, 2015 (UTC)

I assume Trebol is a logia, because of varying reasons. The one I most look at stems from chapter 760, page 11. After Law cuts Trebol with Radio Knife, he becomes a puddle. This meaning his main body should have transformed no? Also, why would Law feel the need to use radio knife, instead of an outright sword slash if he was a mere Paramecia, as well as Usopp's blow to Treol, so I assume he is a Logia... but hey, I could be wrong. --Rukiryo (talk) 15:51, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

As with all other instances, that doesn't show Trebol's body transforming. He just has a lot of mucus around him. And the Radio Knife argument can be used for a Logia as well: Why didn't he just use a regular haki sword slash? It actually makes more sense when you consider him a Paramecia; Law wasn't sure if he'd hit the actual body, so he played safe and prevented Trebol from reforming his mucus coat. Awaikage Talk 16:03, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Flame, light, and lightning are all energy, which can be projected and controlled separately. But those attacks are discharges; Ace doesn't turn his hand into a fireball, then attack- he releases energy as an attack. For something more tangible, let's consider the swamp element. If Caribou left a trail of gunk behind him, then it would cease to be a part of his body and you could destroy it without harming him. If he throws gunk at you, again, no harm done. But when you're using the element to get around (fly, walk slide, whatever) it's part of you and you can be hurt. There is no fake torso to slash if you're standing on it.

Long story short: when it comes to Logia, there's a difference between size manipulation and using a projectile. 16:05, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

There's one thing we haven't considered. Perhaps Trebol himself didn't eat the fruit, but the power got implanted into his cloak. We don't know how Logias would affect objects at this point since all the fruits we've seen attached to objects have been Zoans. If you look at him after Law used Sterben, none of the goo is coming from his actual body. It's all the cloak. If you notice, his beard is a different color than what's dripping off of him. I realize people are quick to dismiss new territory like this, but it should still be considered.DancePowderer Talk 16:23, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Who's to say Law didn't use haki? Blackening has never been a requirement for Haki use (just look at Tashigi vs. Monet). All in all, I think there are a lot more assumptions that need to be made for Paramecia than for Logia. JustSomeDude...  Talk | 16:26, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

If Law did use it, why did his work when Luffy's didn't?DancePowderer Talk 16:28, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

JSD, I already explained why he couldn't. DP, that's an interesting theory, but we've seen him create mucus from his fingers and Viola called him a "Mucus Human". Awaikage Talk 16:32, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Well, Law made deep enough slices to actually reach Trebol's body, while Luffy's punches simply missed the main body, hitting instead the sides where only the empty coating exist (similar to how Sham does a hunchback to deceive Zoro into thinking he slashed his stomach). Yata Talk to me 16:41, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

I'll just take this time to remind everyone that it's possible to hit a logia without haki if you take them by surprise, like Luffy did in chapter 158. 17:12, April 2, 2015 (UTC) DS

But Luffy used Haki and still could not hit Trebol. Yata Talk to me 17:31, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Well, the idea is that Trebol's side and things are not an extension of his body. Even if they are made of his sticky stuff, they aren't a part of his body, and therefore not subject to Haki. JustSomeDude...  Talk | 19:16, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

You still haven't explained how Law managed to cut him without Haki if he's a Logia. Awaikage Talk 19:23, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

The cloak thing was suggested in the previous discussion by a smart bloke who was ignored for his crackpot theories and habitual alcoholism.

It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 19:31, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Law slashed Trebol with his lost arm which he cannot imbue his Haki without directly touching it. It seems like Beta Beta is Paramecia.Salamancc (talk) 19:47, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Okay, here are the facts that indicate it is Paramecia more than Logia:

  1. Mucus is not so much as an element as it is a substance (similar to wax and poison).
    1. Swamp is an actual element, to an extent, as it consists of a force of nature, which mucus is NOT.
  2. Trebol hid his emaciated body underneath a thick cloak of mucus, unlike an actual Logia being consisted of it.
    1. Luffy could not strike Trebol's physical body despite being imbued with Haki.
  3. Law cannot imbue his severed hand and remote controlled sword with Haki (as it is no longer connected to his body), yet he can still injure Trebol.
  4. Have we ever seen Trebol actually completely melt away into a puddle of mucus, minus when he was sliced apart by Law, which doesn't look like a complete meltdown to be a Logia?
  5. Trebol himself states that he is not Logia when Luffy's punch failed to reach his body.

These are my arguments. Yata Talk to me 20:03, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Everybody keeps mentioning Usopp's attack but never actually think about it. There's no evidence that he just didn't create a mucus clone like Mr 3's wax clones. Now that he said he isn't a Logia he isn't a Logia. SeaTerror (talk) 20:07, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Every arguments show it is a Paramecia except Usopp's attack and his shifting body while jumping.Salamancc (talk) 20:15, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

If you think about it, when we first saw him use his power, he trickled down from the tower to talk to Baby 5. His head was in one piece, so his body could have easily just been inside a blob. That was the one thing hanging me up about it, but I think I'm convinced he's a paramecia, especially considering you can't find a flammable adhesive like that in nature.DancePowderer Talk 20:20, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Also a preemptive comment in case anybody tries to bring it up. The anime shows him turn into it but since anime isn't canon it doesn't count. Can be put under a manga and anime differences section though. SeaTerror (talk) 20:22, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the anime is not really reliable especially in this case since the scene was aired before the "plotwist" was revealed in the manga, therefore the anime crew most likely didn't even know about it. The clone theory might be a good explanation, although it's kinda becoming a cheap plotwist by Oda (see Doflamingo & Kyros). leviathan_89 20:47, 2 April, 2015 (UTC)

Even in the anime the only scene where seems to turn into it is one where he jumps from one place to another, so it could just be the motion effect. Looking at the anime version of the Usopp scene, it's even easier to see how his body would fit in the upper section. Awaikage Talk 20:49, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Well, if Trebol himself admits he is not Logia, I actually see little argument needed. Yata Talk to me 21:16, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

This is how he survived usopp's attack Judge Magister Pyarox 22:19, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

I would like to point out that the anime version of the scene is non-canon, and the manga never showed Usopp cutting him into 3 pieces, but only two, and with his head placed in such a way that makes him hiding his body seem impossible to me.

Also, in regard to Law not being able to imbue the sword with Haki because his arm is no longer part of his body, I do not think it is an issue. He managed to grasp a sword with his dismembered arm, when the sword was shown to be in his other hand after losing his right arm. If he can still manage to grab things, I think it's safe to say Law still has some degree of control over it, and it's still part of his body, and Haki is on the table. JustSomeDude...  Talk | 22:34, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

No, his severed hand so happens to be gripping on the sword, and he just threw that arm with his ability, separate from his body, as a projectile. Yata Talk to me 22:36, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

You missed the part where his severed (right) arm was not holding the sword before this attack. Law's sword was shown in Law's left hand post-dismemberment. At some point, the right hand had to grab it. JustSomeDude...  Talk | 22:38, April 2, 2015 (UTC)
If he can use Tact to control an object's movement, he might have just controlled his fingers to grip the hilt. But again, that would be our speculation. Yata Talk to me 22:44, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

If that were the case, why would he need the arm? He could just use the sword alone. JustSomeDude...  Talk | 23:10, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

1. Oda has stated that Logias give powers over the 'forces of nature', when has he stated directly that it's an element? Stop thinking that Logias are restricted to elements.

2. Trebol HAS transformed into his Logia state, when he dropped into the palace room when all the executives were sitting in their seats, he was a blob of mucus. Also when he chased Robin he transformed into his sticky form to increase his speed. Usopps attacks split him into his Logia form, and so did Law since Trebol was reduced to a puddle.

3. What likely happened in Chapter 782 was that Trebol is bluffing and is still a Logia. However he has coated himself in his own substance rather than transform into it, which is why Luffy missed his 'true body'.

4. Please stop posting that fan fiction from Arlong Park where Trebol is crouching in his top half, if it's not in the manga then it's completely irrelevant.

Anima40 (talk) 23:47, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

Given Law's adeptness with Room, I would not be surprised if he could imbue his severed hand with Haki, since basically anything in his room is part of his body, or at least is under his complete control.

I must admit this is very confusing, as pretty much all signs point to him being Paramecia, but Usopp's attack obviously cut him in half. Law's Radio Knife attack doesn't count because he can cut people into pieces without harming them.

There is one thing to take into consideration, however. Trebol leapt at Law without expecting the latter to retaliate, and it could simply be that he is a Logia, but he takes extra precautions so that opponents don't catch him off-guard. Logias can create a limitless amount of their element, and I think it would be reasonable to believe that creating the element to use with you, and not turning your body into it, would render the substance immune to Haki, since it is not part of your body per se. Basically, Trebol created a lot of mucus from his body to protect himself, and transformed into mucus when Usopp attacked him, but failed to do so when Law did.

This is grasping at straws, and I still believe he's a Paramecia, but this argument makes the most sense to me right now. Kaido | Remnants of My Broken Sig 23:52, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

If Trebol explicitly said he's not a Logia user, then why aren't we taking his word for it? Doesn't matter what are the arguments for him being a Logia user, he said that he's not a Logia user, meaning he's a Paramecia user. Jademing (talk) 00:04, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

While I am inclined to believe so, Trebol's rhetorical question is not exactly that clear, and it may be a bad translation. Kaido | Remnants of My Broken Sig 00:10, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

"I would like to point out that the anime version of the scene is non-canon, and the manga never showed Usopp cutting him into 3 pieces, but only two"
Nope, three. And looking at the bottom right panel, I'd say there's enough space. Law can't control his severed arm, that would make no sense. We clearly saw him use Takt to lift it. Why didn't he just use the sword alone? Who knows. Maybe Oda thought it would be cooler with the arm - It doesn't really matter.

I think it's time to stop nit-picking and just go with the fact that Trebol himself pretty much said he's not a Logia. Also, the points made by Yata earlier. Awaikage Talk 00:12, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

Given the differences in Panda & Stream's translations, I'd like to see a raw before we agree that he's stated it himself. Stream's translation makes it sound like a taunting question to me, not an outright declaration. JustSomeDude...  Talk | 00:53, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

Aohige's translation: Trebol replies "Do you think I'm logia?" which is followed by Law calling him a "haribote" which is basically like a fake paper-made mockup. Like a fake animal costume.
He also thinks it's not a Logia. Awaikage Talk 01:12, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

First of all, Law's severed arm cannot be imbued with Haki, as he was not in contact with it at the time. Arrows that Kuja fire are imbued with Haki because they were holding onto it before releasing the bow. Therefore, Law did not use Haki to nullify any Logia defense, and thus the Beta Beta no Mi cannot be Logia. Yata Talk to me 01:41, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

"Law's severed arm cannot be imbued with Haki". Since when? If people can still feel the affects of their hearts, communicate through farts, and feel the sensations of the limbs due to Law's devil fruit powers. Whose to say that Law can't still do the same with his own arm? Granted he didn't severe the arm himself so I see your point. But personally to me it seems it's more likely Law can imbue his arm with haki since he controls everything in his room and he's inflciting his 'will' onto it like a weapon, rather than a part of his own body. Anima40 (talk) 02:23, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

Alright, maybe. Can't confirm enough there. But why would Trebol hide his emaciated body under a thick coat like that then? And mucus is NOT a force of nature nor an element. Also, if we consider the Ishi Ishi no Mi, we once argued it can be a Logia, but we were proven wrong. Isn't this Beta Beta no Mi power similar in case to the Ishi Ishi no Mi, easily mistaken for a Logia? Yata Talk to me 03:09, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

Law isn't Buggy. His arm was straight up severed, not split with Ope Ope powers. We've seen nothing that suggests CoA can be imbued without physical contact; Not with Law, not with anyone. Awaikage Talk 03:27, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

I'm just hoping next chapter we can get an explanation. Anima40 (talk) 03:29, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

Until then, does anyone believe we have enough information, at the time, to determine what class this fruit is? Yata Talk to me 04:03, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

There's a clear majority now stating it's Paramecia. We should change it. SeaTerror (talk) 04:51, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

Trebol himself being like "Logia, lolwut n00b" along with all the evidence presented for Paramecia seems pretty clear to me.--Xilinoc (talk) 05:35, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

For everyone still towing to the "Usopp cut him in half" line, consider this: the manga is in black and white. Without a panel showing what happened next, there is no way to know if those blank spots are empty space between body chunks or just stylized slash lines meant to show the path of the shuriken. For all we know, they went right through the front of his "mucus body" and left him completely untouched. 05:54, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I believe that either Oda has made a few mistakes, or this fruit is definitely a Logia: first, as noted by someone, Trebol was cut by Usopp; even if thanks to some miracle his body was not hit (and I don't see how, since it's basically only his neck flying off), his beard and hair were cut, but later they were long again, indicating he has reformed himself (or that this is an error on Oda's part). Furthermore, Law's Radio Knife sliced him in three parts, and he clearly said that this technique would prevent him from reattaching his body properly. Trebol was also very afraid of Injection Shot, so I believe Law can imbue his long-distance attacks with Haki: that is why Sterben worked. Furthermore, Trebol did not say "I am not a Logia", and even if he did, he was most likely trying to trick Luffy. Hak works on Paramecia, too: I simply think that Trebol wears very baggy clothing to trick the opponent into hitting it and believing Haki is not effective against him. Martialmaniac (talk) 11:07, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

After reviewing some of the earlier chapters depicting Trebol using his ability, I've come to the conclusion that he is a Logia type. In Chapter 760 his right arm is clearly detached from the rest of his body and in the next page he is shown moving it. Unless Oda made multiple mistakes while depicting him throughout the Dressrosa Arc, the Beta Beta no Mi is belongs clearly on the Logia category. MasterDeva (talk) 11:55, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

Also, in Chapter 761, if you look closely, you can seeTrebol's feet in one of the slices. Martialmaniac (talk) 12:13, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

@MasterDeva: we can't use the case of when he was cut down by Law as proof for being logia, because that would happen anyway if he was paramecia or just a regular person, that's the main feature of the Radio Knife. About Usopp's case, everybody is saying that trebol hid his body away, but IMO the most probably explanation (with the paramecia theory) is that was just a clone (see Doflamingo vs Kyros). Pro-logia there is a moment in chapter 700 when he seems to be in his liquid form, but if you imagine his body in a ball of mucus falling on the ground you would get the same effect, so that is still ambiguous in my opinion. leviathan_89 15:24, 3 April, 2015 (UTC)

Although we could attribute Trebol's survival from Law's Radio Knife to the Ope Ope no Mi, the same cannot be said about the former reassembling himself after the attack. Law even hinted at Radio Knife's main purpose behind the attack. To prevent his opponents from pulling themselves together when cut into pieces. This was evidenced by Trebol when he confronted difficulty in reattaching his body. MasterDeva (talk) 17:17, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

Actually the last panel of the last chapter clearly shows he is paramecia. Not to mention he said he isn't a Logia in the same chapter. SeaTerror (talk) 19:04, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

Radio Knife is like his normal cutting technique (i.e. what he did to Kinemon etc.), the victim just can't piece themselves back together for a while. Now, can we close this? There's a clear majority, so I don't see the point in continuing. Awaikage Talk 19:20, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

Since we are putting so much emphasis in what Trebol said, shouldn't we wait for Klobis' confirmation on what he actually said? MasterDeva (talk) 19:31, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

We have three translations, including Aohige's, and they all say pretty much the same thing. There's no need to wait. Awaikage Talk 19:49, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

This is very similar to Magellan's devil fruit, so it's obviously a Paramecia. If it was a logia then it would have been similar to Caribou's devil fruit. Roranoa Drake II (talk) 19:53, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

I think we should just accept it being a Paramecia, despite what was shown in previous chapters. The info we were given by Trebol is more than enough to conclude that it is really a Paramecia. Maybe Oda thought of it back then, maybe he didn't. If the latter was the case, it would explain the seemingly inconsistent appearances of this Devil Fruit. But we since we do not know, this would be an endless discussion. We should just close this now.
Aurora[1] | Yes? 20:04, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

Great, we are made a laughstock over at Arlong Park because of fools like you can't accept the fact that he is clearly Paramecia. Can't you guys can't just accept that?

Joekido (talk) 20:09, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, AoD. There's a very clear majority, so I'm closing this. Joe, there's no need to call people "fools". Awaikage Talk 20:18, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

I was only speaking out on the Arlong Park forums. They called us far worst then that.

Joekido (talk) 20:57, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

But what about the beard? Holy, Usopp's attack hit him below the neck! Even if he had miraculously shrunken hi body to avoid the blow, hia hair and beard were still cut, and later they were intact again. How does assuming that he has somehow disappeared, made a clone and then reappeared make it more rational? Also, the translation on mangareader makes clear that he did not say he is a Paramecia, and that Luffy reckoned the only reason he did not hit him was because he was much thinner than he looked. There are arguments that have pretty much been ignored, but someone seems to hint that counting raised hands is more important than discussing facts on a wiki... Martialmaniac (talk) 01:31, April 4, 2015 (UTC)

"Facts" SeaTerror (talk) 19:04, April 4, 2015 (UTC)

The evidence suggests he is indeed Logia FAR more than Paramecia. Mainly, this: [[1]]. And that drawing which keeps getting linked isn't an excuse. Let's not forget the countless times we've seen him turn into a mucus form too and For those who say anime only, that's not completely true, plus I think that Oda would consult the anime makers otherwise if he weren't a Logia. - As to answer how he was cut by Law, I have two theories. 1. Law imbued his arm and sword with Haki. How did he do that when his arm was severed? Well, I theorize that even when a part of his body is separated, as long as it's in the Room then his can still imbue it with Haki. My more unlikely theory. 2. Has no-one thought to suggest that he just didn't react to the attack in time? The Wikia itself says that Logia users have to consciously or reflexively transform into their very substance to avoid attacks? Trebol may not have realized what was happening until it was too late. - As for what Trebol said to Luffy, the version I read said "Logia you say!? That means nothing to me!!" which could mean a few things depending on how you interpret it. I interpret it as him saying 'So what if I'm Logia' or that he's better than Logia. THAT all depends on how the line is localized though. - In the end, Oda's to blame for the confusion, because if it turns out he IS indeed Paramecia, then he's got a lot of continuity errors to fix. Until then, I'd stick the Beta Beta fruit in the Logia section. --WarioJim (talk) 01:09, April 5, 2015 (UTC)

Trebol reveals his fruit to be a Paramecia, not a Logia. He did not. This is not One Piece I-think-A-is-B Wki. --Klobis (talk) 03:37, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

Then tell us what he meant based on what he said and what transpired in this chapter.DancePowderer Talk 03:42, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

"It seems Trebol is not an ordinary Logia" That's all. What you think cannot be a citation. --Klobis (talk) 04:04, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

Trebol talked about himself in the third person? SeaTerror (talk) 04:06, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

While I do agree with Klobis, and I think the page should probably just be an unidentified DF type, I do wish Klobis had participated in the original discussion so that we didn't need to lock the page again after an additional edit war. JustSomeDude...  Talk | 04:08, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

Had Awaikage not been so headstrong (being an admin) the conversation could have gone smoother instead of rushing it to a conclusion. This is not how things should be handled when a conflicting issue is discussed! MasterDeva (talk) 12:20, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

There was a clear majority. SeaTerror (talk) 19:14, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

Here is the script on this from Viz's translation Trebol: "Yer Wastin' yer time! Beh Heh Heh!!" Luffy: "Huh?! What the Heck?! If he's a Logia, my Armament Haki shout hit him!" Trebol: "Am I a Logia?! But that won't work on me!! It's pointless Rubber-Brains".

Even if Viz's release may not be as accurate as the original release it does clearly hint that Trebol is not a Logia type. Personally I would wait to see the next chapter or so to see if this is cleared up. -Adv193 (talk) 22:37, April 6, 2015 (UTC)

I didn't see any point in continuing when it was such a clear majority, and just the same arguments over and over again.

Here's one point that has been ignored by the logia-supporters, though: Explosive "mucus" is not a force of nature. It doesn't fit with the other logias. It's like Mr. 3's wax, Kalifa's bubbles and Magellan's poison. Awaikage Talk 01:12, April 7, 2015 (UTC)

That is realluy the only reason why i think it is a paramecia because the rest of the eveidence to me is pointing towards him being a logia.ASL Pirates 06:37, April 7, 2015 (UTC)

And where exactly does it say that all Logias must be elements/Forces of nature?

At this point, we're getting all kinds of criticism on both sides for categorizing it as one or the other, let's just go with Unknown type and explain why we do that on the page. Then we can maintain some integrity as a credible resource, and put an end to the argument. JustSomeDude...  Talk | 21:58, April 7, 2015 (UTC)

Oda said it. SBS Vol. 30: "Logia is the "best" of the three types, as it gives control over the forces of nature.". And every Logia we've seen follows this description - Beta Beta doesn't. I'm not really keen on compromising, because I believe the evidence clearly proves that it's a Paramecia. There's a clear majority as well. But if everyone else wants to do that, then do it. Awaikage Talk 22:15, April 7, 2015 (UTC)

If we couldn't have Monet's status as unknown then we can't have this as an unknown fruit type. SeaTerror (talk) 04:48, April 8, 2015 (UTC)

Alright if we would put in everything we've seen so far next to eachother, we'd have this:

  • Usopp cut Trebol. Trebol was cut into pieces, his beard was cut as well. link
  • Law used Radio Knife to cut Trebol in pieces. This was inside his Room so it would have happened either way. Also his staff got cut as well. So just a normal Ope Ope cut. link
  • Luffy punched Trebol with Busoshoku Haki. It went straight through his coat. Let's say he was a Logia, doesn't that mean that his coat is part of his body? It is made out of mucus as we see sometime later. The mucus he created would still be part of his body, same case with Monet. So if he was indeed a Logia, Luffy would have been able to hit him. link
  • Trebol says something along the line of "Am I really a Logia?". I don't really see why he would have been bluffing but whatever, it is a possibility. What also is a possibility is that he was actually being serious and might not be a Logia at all. Same link as the previous bullet.
  • Law cut Trebol with his severed arm. Well I dunno about you guys but I have yet to see how one can cover an object which the user is not touching with Busoshoku Haki. And I doubt Law can cover his severed arm with Haki because it's his arm. It's not like he has control over it. link
  • Another thing: Luffy is surprised Trebol is bleeding. Why would he be surprised? If Law was actually covering his arm with Haki, which he should've been if Trebol was an actual Logia, then it wouldn't be a surprise to Luffy, would it? link
  • Mucus is not a natural element. Logia gives control over natural forces. link

Lemme put it in another way:

  • 1 evidence for Logia
  • 4 evidences for Paramecia

I would say let us just call the first occasion an error and leave it behind us until we have clear evidence from Oda whether it's one or another. I believe we have enough evidence that a compromise is not needed.
Aurora[1] | Yes? 17:36, April 9, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree with Aurora here. Looks like far more evidence for Paramecia than for Logia.--Xilinoc (talk) 19:24, April 9, 2015 (UTC)

Alright then here's my questions on the matter. Radio Knife.. Why use Radio Knife specifically, a move that supposedly prevents one from reforming themselves? If its just a regular Paramecia, why not just cut him down the middle then? What kind of Paramecia can put himself back together when cut, stated by Trebol himself that "he couldn't put himself back together". How exactly does a Paramecia become transform his body into a puddle, and finally.. Didn't Caesar Clown turn his own clothing into gas? --Rukiryo (talk) 22:44, April 9, 2015 (UTC)

My guess is that Radio Knife was used as a means of delaying Trebol. You seem to forget that this is a Ope Ope move. He was cut, but not like it would normally be. Take a look at Kinemon during Punk Hazard. His head was "cut", does that mean he's a Logia? No, it's just an occurence that happens when Law uses his powers. Caesar Clown's clothing was his real clothes, not gas. As revealed in the previous chapter, Trebol's clothing was made out mucus, it wasn't actual clothing. Big difference.
Aurora[1] | Yes? 22:58, April 9, 2015 (UTC)

All Ope Ope no Mi moves are different. The difference between Kinemon and Trebol, is the fact that Trebol CAN put himself together when cut, Kinemon can't, allowing Law to use a normal Ope Ope no Mi cut on the likes of him, to which Kinemon had to be re-attached through outside forces, the straw hats. Trebol however should be able to put himself back together from the likes of that, but it prevented it. However, if you wish to delay someone, why not just outright kill them. Law had the time. That said you never did explain the puddle problem, nor the problem with Trebol transforming his lower half into mucus. (Chapter 760-761 I presume, the one where Cora-san originally appeared.) --Rukiryo (talk) 23:05, April 9, 2015 (UTC)

AoD's list of evidence shows that there's clearly more evidence pointing to Beta Beta no Mi being a Paramecia-class fruit, so I'd have to say that the DF is a Paramecia, and not a Logia. Jademing (talk) 23:11, April 9, 2015 (UTC)

There is nowhere stated that Kinemon had to be reassembled through outside forces, if I'm not wrong. Also Law DID try to kill him, Doflamingo interfered. Now that I reread the chapter, Law did it to lower Trebol's defenses while attacking him with Injection Shot. The puddle problem? What puddle problem? From 761? Also where do you see Trebol transforming his lower half into mucus? I reread the chapters and didn't see it anywhere.
Aurora[1] | Yes? 23:15, April 9, 2015 (UTC)

I see that Law did try to kill him, but why not just attack in the first place instead of using Radio Knife? My person answer is because of the fact that Trebol can reform. In case a kill attempt would fail, he made sure that he couldn't re-attach, but that is just me. Also, the puddle? right in this panel, he became a puddle. As for where his lower half transformed, here and here. Also, here and here in the digitally colored manga. --Rukiryo (talk) 23:28, April 9, 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for taking your time to link all of these, but I don't see how these insances would be proving that the Devil Fruit is a Logia, as they're all explainable with the Paramecia-concept. I believe the "lower half" is just mucus created by himself. Remember that his real body is very slim. Also, for the puddle problem, it does really seem like he turned into a mucus puddle, but it might as well be perspective. Also since he got cut earlier by Radio Knife, it's only his head, neck and part of his mucus coat present. In other words, I would not find these instances reliable.
Aurora[1] | Yes? 23:39, April 9, 2015 (UTC)

  1. "why not just attack"- I'm guessing because an Ope Ope cut is much easier to make. All he needs to do is swing his sword, he doesn't even have to actually touch the thing he's cutting. But that argument works against Logia too, so I'm not sure where you're going with it. If Trebol were a Logia, Law could've just cut him up with Haki.
  2. He didn't become a puddle. He's still in pieces from Radio Knife, so it's just his head and part of his upper body surrounded by mucus.
  3. None of the pics you linked prove that he transformed his lower half.

Awaikage Talk 23:44, April 9, 2015 (UTC)

Since this is all just arguing in circles, why not just cast a vote? Yata Talk to me 23:47, April 9, 2015 (UTC)

I already closed this once due to that very reason and a clear majority, but folks didn't like that. Awaikage Talk 23:54, April 9, 2015 (UTC)

Why not just leave it WITHOUT a classification for the time being? Wait for Oda to say what class it is directly. --Rukiryo (talk) 23:57, April 9, 2015 (UTC)

Because we have enough evidence to say it's Paramecia, as explained in AoD's recap. Awaikage Talk 00:00, April 10, 2015 (UTC)

Well, obvious Paramecia over Logia, but some people still argue otherwise. To get them to quell down, why not just vote? If they argue after that, we can ban them. Yata Talk to me 01:21, April 10, 2015 (UTC)

Might as well, I guess. Awaikage Talk 01:29, April 10, 2015 (UTC)

No. There's still a clear majority. So there's no need for a poll. Also it was already suggested to have it as no classification but I already said why we can't. If we're banning people for arguing then we'd need to ban the entire wiki. SeaTerror (talk) 02:39, April 10, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think a poll is the best way to solve this. I think the real question here is if we really want to risk losing some credibility if we want to declare one way or the other. We keep it Logia, we're apparently laughed at by AP. If we make it paramecia, we get several edits a day from others who disagree. It's about our reputation and our readership, so a poll of veteran users will not cut it here.

I say no, it's not worth the risk, and we should have it as an unknown type. I think that because Trebol/Oda are trying to make a willful misdirection on this issue. Either we were lied to when we were made to believe it was Logia before, or we we were lied to when Trebol made it seem it was Paramecia. Since there's a misdirection here, I think there's no way we're getting out of it without a further clarification. Whether it's a future chapter, or an SBS, the answer will come in clear language. That's why I think we can/should wait for awhile and just keep the page as unknown. JustSomeDude...  Talk | 03:33, April 10, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with JustSomeDude on this matter. --Rukiryo (talk) 03:39, April 10, 2015 (UTC)

So now we're going to have a poll on whether or not to have it as unknown? SeaTerror (talk) 04:36, April 10, 2015 (UTC)

To be honest I don't think putting it as unknown will help our reputation either. "So much evidence for Paramecia and those fools still have it as unknown!". It's just a confusing matter and anyone who didn't think it through would say it's either this or that. There is no way to get around that. I believe we do have enough evidence for saying it's a Paramecia because imo the evidence in the previous chapter is more current than for example 741. It's a high possibility in my eyes that Oda made him a Paramecia later on purely because Law can hardly defeat him otherwise (he can't wound him if he can't use Buso Haki if Trebol was a Logia as I said before). But hey, if we're going to have a poll whether we take it as an unknown that's fine by me. I just don't think it would really solve the reputation problem. Soooo, poll whether we keep it as Paramecia or change it to unknown?
Aurora[1] | Yes? 10:46, April 10, 2015 (UTC)

Haters gonna hate no matter what. I think either way, we need to simply explain things through notes/text and explain which are the doubts and the reasoning behind listing the fruit as we do. leviathan_89 13:23, 10 April, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with AoD. Poll paramecia vs. unknown. Awaikage Talk 14:50, April 10, 2015 (UTC)

No. We already have a clear majority of people saying Paramecia. It's ridiculous to put something as unknown when we list characters like Monet as dead which was and will always be complete speculation unless Oda shows it. SeaTerror (talk) 22:01, April 10, 2015 (UTC)

I think if it's listed as Paramecia then that's fine, but it should then be mentioned that a huge error was made in the anime.  In episode 674 Usopp cuts Trebol into 3 seperate horizontal slices, atfer which Trebol forms himself back together in a way that only a Logia could.  That is a major mistake by Toei. 00:54, April 12, 2015 (UTC)

To say that the Beta Beta is Paramecia is akin to saying Vergo is dead. We don't explicitly know that the latter is 100% true, but we weighed the evidence and decided that was the most likely outcome. This should be the same for Beta Beta too. The majority of the evidence is in favor of it being Paramecia. Therefore, we should keep it as Paramecia. We listed Sabo as dead for a long time simply because the evidence was weighed toward him being dead, and even though it was later proven false, it showed how we should do things like that around here. Besides, if the Beta Beta really is a Logia, reverting everything back would be a simple process, given how little time it took to change everything to Paramecia. The fiery destruction of Photobucket incarnate 13:53, April 13, 2015 (UTC)

Hey guys and girls. What is that thing with your foundation for paramecia? Sorry, but that's crap, you know. You are saying Trebol has a paramecia because Viola said he is a "mucus man". That's your reason for paramecia, because he is a mucus man? Was Ace also a paramecia because he was a "fire man"? Or Kizaru a paramecia because he was a "light man"? That's not a rational reasoning. Just my 2 cents. -- 12:58, May 9, 2015 (UTC)

The reason we have it as a Paramecia is because we polled it. Read the discussion.

It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 13:03, May 9, 2015 (UTC)

yeah, but what's your reference? maybe it is paramecia, idk, but not because violas statement. that's nonsense at the moment. If you haven't a reference, then don't take a totally irrelevant statement. and your poll is needless, btw. if there is no clear information about, then you can't just decide what you want. crap here, no sense of quality. *head-shaking* -- 16:22, May 9, 2015 (UTC)

Okay, did you even read the discussion above? We literally gave TONS of references about how it's impossible for it to be a Logia. Read before you start criticizing, just please. We DO have clear information based on what happened. If there's anything crap here it's your ignorance. *head-shaking* Aurora[1] | Yes? 16:33, May 9, 2015 (UTC)

Honestly, I am SO sick and tired of random-ass users coming out of nowhere to whine at us about how we do what we do without providing any evidence that we should change something beyond "waaah waaah you guys are dumb". For the benefit of all reading this and for those who would come and fuss around in the future, I'll just repost Yata's overwhelming evidence for this fruit being Paramecia:

  1. Mucus is not so much as an element as it is a substance (similar to wax and poison).
    1. Swamp is an actual element, to an extent, as it consists of a force of nature, which mucus is NOT.
  2. Trebol hid his emaciated body underneath a thick cloak of mucus, unlike an actual Logia being consisted of it.
    1. Luffy could not strike Trebol's physical body despite being imbued with Haki.
  3. Law cannot imbue his severed hand and remote controlled sword with Haki (as it is no longer connected to his body), yet he can still injure Trebol.
  4. Have we ever seen Trebol actually completely melt away into a puddle of mucus, minus when he was sliced apart by Law, which doesn't look like a complete meltdown to be a Logia?
  5. Trebol himself states that he is not Logia when Luffy's punch failed to reach his body.

Now can we please move on from this? Pretty please?--Xilinoc (talk) 17:21, May 9, 2015 (UTC)

Poll Discussion[edit source]

Alright we need to poll this. It can't go on for weeks.

Right now, I've drafted Logia vs. Unknown. We should discuss adding Paramecia to it.

Right now, I'm thinking a two week poll though, since people seem to care about it. JustSomeDude...  Talk | 13:26, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

Well obviously it needs to have Paramecia. Awaikage Talk 13:51, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

There should be 3 options: Logia, Paramecia and Unknown. For reasons already mentioned above. Aurora[1] | Yes? 13:58, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

Why doesn't the poll don't have the option of Paramecia... The entire point of this discussion is Logia vs. Paramecia, and as such, the option of Paramecia absolutely should be included. Seriously? Leaving it out? Wow. Jademing (talk) 14:01, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, put Paramecia as an option, gawsh.--Xilinoc (talk) 14:12, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

This discussion was TITLED Paramecia, and at one point everything was changed to PARAMECIA. Leaving it out would be very thickheaded. The fiery destruction of Photobucket incarnate 14:25, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

Well, few editors who are eligible to vote have voiced their opinion in favor of Paramecia, and previous mentions of a poll only included two options. But I've added Paramecia now, because of the overwhelming agreement. Anything else to discuss, or could we start the poll earlier now? JustSomeDude...  Talk | 16:51, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

Unless someone wants to argue about the length of the poll, I don't think there's anything else. We can probably start it in about seven hours at 00:00 UTC. Awaikage Talk 17:07, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

Well, the length is something we could discuss. But considering this poll has only been up a few hours, we should wait at least 24 hours for anyone to post. You gotta give people a chance to see it. 17:12, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

That is complete BS. The majority of people who wouldn't be able to vote said to call it a Logia. Most people who can vote said Paramecia. SeaTerror (talk) 18:30, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

I looked, JSD, and you and Klobis seemed to be the only eligible editors who strongly argued for Logia, whereas users like DP, Kage, AOD, and myself argued for Paramecia. I'd say begin the vote on Thursday, which is enough time for eligible parties involved to be informed. If we wait too long people will lose interest in this. The fiery destruction of Photobucket incarnate 19:22, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

Thursday sounds good to start the poll.

And there is no clear majority anymore, so we need a poll. We can argue about who said what and who can/cannot vote, but at the end of the day we just need to poll it. No point in arguing about it. JustSomeDude...  Talk | 22:03, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

If you're purposely leaving eligible people out then yeah there isn't a clear majority anymore. SeaTerror (talk) 23:28, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

Poll[edit source]

Five Elders Infobox.png
This was a poll regarding the classification of the fruit.
  • To vote you had to have had a registered account here for at least 3 months and have at least 300 edits.
  • If you have been asked to vote for a particular poll option by another user, do not vote and inform an Admin immediately about who asked you to vote.

Status: Closed
Start date: 00:00 UTC April 16, 2015
End date: 00:00 UTC April 30, 2015

What should we classify the Beta Beta no Mi as?

The fruit's class should be "Logia".

The fruit's class should be "Paramecia".

  1. Awaikage Talk 00:03, April 16, 2015 (UTC) There's clearly enough evidence, as detailed in the discussion.
  2. Jademing (talk) 00:59, April 16, 2015 (UTC)
  3. The fiery destruction of Photobucket incarnate 01:28, April 16, 2015 (UTC) Vergo is dead, so this should be Paramecia
  4. SeaTerror (talk) 01:51, April 16, 2015 (UTC) Having unknown for this would be incredibly hypocritical. SeaTerror (talk) 01:51, April 16, 2015 (UTC)
  5. DancePowderer Talk 04:35, April 16, 2015 (UTC) How can we interpret it as anything else?
  6. Joekido (talk) 04:44, April 16, 2015 (UTC)
  7. Xilinoc (talk) 11:31, April 16, 2015 (UTC) All the translations I've read support this.
  8. Aurora[1] | Yes? 14:05, April 16, 2015 (UTC) Sterben is plainly impossible if it was a Logia. We have the evidence. We don't need "Unknown".
  9. Yata Talk to me 01:49, April 21, 2015 (UTC)
  10. It's recommended to throw away socks after a year 14:22, April 21, 2015 (UTC) It's either a Logia or a Paramecia. There is no Unknown category, and we know for certain it's not a Zoan. So what this poll actually is is people voting to admit it's a Paramecia or to pretend it isn't.
  11. Roranoa Drake II (talk) 20:45, April 24, 2015 (UTC) It's crystal clear
  12. The Will of Deez (talk) 07:05, April 25, 2015 (UTC)

The fruit's class should be "Unknown".

  1. JustSomeDude...  Talk | 01:08, April 16, 2015 (UTC) Safest and most correct course of action, given conflicting evidence.
  2. http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr80/love213_84/96.gif 고륻 로자 http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr80/love213_84/96.gif
01:30, April 16, 2015 (UTC) Same with JSD.
  1. Klobis (talk) 02:01, April 16, 2015 (UTC) This wiki is for One Piece itself, not for what you think about One Piece.
  2. Meganoide (talk) 11:51, April 16, 2015 (UTC)
  3. MasterDeva (talk) 18:12, April 16, 2015 (UTC)
  4. JapaneseOPfan :: Talk 01:13, April 21, 2015 (UTC)
  5. The Dreamer (talk) 01:21, April 21, 2015 (UTC) On one hand, he was bisected when Usopp shot him with his Pop Greens. On the other hand, he stated that he may or may not be Logia. He neither confirmed nor denied it…or perhaps I'm simply looking at an inaccurate translation.
  6.  GH  Talk  22:31, April 21, 2015 (UTC) Unknown until officially proven "Paramecia".This seems like the most logical approach to me for now.

Post Poll Discussion[edit source]

Okay, the poll's over. Result: We will classify the Beta Beta no Mi as Paramecia. Awaikage Talk 00:05, April 30, 2015 (UTC)

Beto Launcher or Beta Betton Launcher?[edit source]

I think this is not the same attack of Chapter 780.

Probably, they are different.--Salamancc (talk) 21:41, April 2, 2015 (UTC)

The attack is indeed Beta Betton Launcher; here is the raw page.EvilDragonLord (talk) 17:23, April 7, 2015 (UTC)

Well, it got moved to its own part, so no worries.--Xilinoc (talk) 18:32, April 7, 2015 (UTC)

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