Nakama and the Fans
Listen. The word Nakama is not a special word in-and-of itself. If it were, you would see it left untranslated in other series' besides One Piece. One Piece is the only series in which the word is given special treatment, and the only source to give it special treatment is the fans. No official source has EVER said that "Nakama means a bond greater than family", not FUNimation, not Viz, not Toei, and most certainly, not Oda. there has never been an SBS where Oda has said "When Luffy says 'Nakama' he means a bond deeper than family". That's purely a Fan preference. The Literal meaning of the term is "Part of a Group". In a Pirate Manga, that's your Crew. So
- A: The Dictionary Definition does not mention a "Bond greater than Family"
- B: None of the official English translations have used this
- C: Nobody on the Japanese side of production has EVER said That Nakama, as a word has any kind of deep meaning, either in the Story or in an interview, and that includes Oda.
Therefore, there is no citable source to this, The only possible source is Kaizoku Fansubs, and not only are they a FAN sub group, therefore making anything they say in notes count as Fan speculation which according to it's article is not encouraged here, but if you read their actual note on the subject, they present it in the EXACT Same way I'm trying to frame this article. They start by saying "this is the Dictionary Definition of Nakama" and then go on to say "we at K-F feel the word means..." etc. They're saying it's their opinion as fans, not a dictionary definition.
The way the article was originally written owned up to it being left untranslated as a "Fan-Term", so I'm just bringing the article back to where it originally was, while being sensitive to both viewpoints. Right now it says that the fans feel the word has a deeper meaning to the series as a whole, but the word by itself does not. I didn't have it say "This Word doesn't mean anything special at all and should always be translated" or anything like that. Right now the article is middle-ground and presents facts. That's how it should be, unbiased.DemonRin 21:40, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
I understand that you feel very passionately about this, but a wiki article shouldn't be treated like a soap box; it would be better served (and be more concise) with a simple definition and some canon examples. 184.108.40.206 19:49, October 18, 2011 (UTC)
- And what do you mean, exactly? I don't see what's wrong with the article as it is. Are you one of those who goes "It should just say 'Nakama means family, just look at all the times Luffy was a family to his nakama, like in Arlong Park, or for Robin. The word should never be translated". or what? Right now it's perfectly middle-ground, even though it SHOULD just say "Nakama means Crewmate and should never be left untranslated because that's just ridiulous. The word has no deeper meaning, that's just fans reading too much into it thanks to Kaizoku Fansubs lying to them to get out of having to actually put effort into their translation of the end of Arlong Park". 220.127.116.11 21:00, October 18, 2011 (UTC)
I heard somwhwere, can't remeber where, that Luffy said he wanted to have 10 Nakama. With Zolo, Nami, Ussop, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, and Vivi that makes nine. Questionably I wonder if he includes himself and Vivi in that number 10 considering he and the others swore that Vivi was there Nakama which would mean if Luffy included himself that he already has 10 Nakama. Unless he does not count himself or vivi meaning then he only has 8 or 9. Meanign they will aquire more in the New World. MrPlasmaCosmos 19:04, November 22, 2010 (UTC)
- Jinbei has already accepted luffy's invitation. Also, Luffy has also accepted the mermaid princess's request to give her a ride above sea-level. At this point we can see that Nakama means different things at different times, but all of them have a "closer than family" feeling. --Ne0 06:20, January 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, no they don't. The word simply does not mean "Closer than family". It means "Crew/Crewmate". The "Closer than family" feel comes from the way Luffy treats his Crew. "Nakama", as a word, simply means "Members of your group" and is such a disposable word that Foxy trades and gambles his "Nakama" like pogs. Also, if Nakama means "Closer than family", why do the Whitebeard Pirates insist upon referring to each other as a "Family", calling their captain "Father"? It's a ridiculous myth that this word means anything beyond "Part of a group" and in a pirate manga, that's your crewmates.18.104.22.168 03:42, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
What's up DemonRin? SeaTerror 03:44, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Not much, lots of real life problems and what have you22.214.171.124 04:00, June 26, 2012 (UTC)
Is this page really needed? We're basically describing an element of the story but this element also happens to be a common word. I know the two main elements of this series seem to be "adventure" and "friendship", both of which are common words. This doesn't seem needed at all, as you're basically explaining friendship. If this exists, why not an "adventure" page? And on top of that, we have the name in Japanese. This isn't the name of an organization, or a person, or a song, it's a common word. This page is just explaining "friendship". Might as well call it that. Even if you consider it a "different meaning", this entire page is only explaining friendship and how it's used in the series. The page being in Japanese is also going against our policy of being an English Wiki. I say kill the Nakama, because a common word doesn't need a whole article.02:48, November 7, 2012 (UTC)
Since this word is used a lot, most people probably don't know what it means. Like you said, this is a very central theme to the story, but unlike adventure, not everyone knows exactly what that means. ••PX15..•• 02:56, November 7, 2012 (UTC)
I think we need to have the article. But only to define a word that is commonly used by the fanbase. All that stuff about the word being "special" should be removed. It's really too common of a word to be as special as the article makes it sound. Talk | 17:43, November 7, 2012 (UTC)
I originally tried really hard to fix this article and make it right, but any attempts were immediately reverted by the people who bought into the "Closer than family" stuff, so I eventually settled on a middle ground that mentions the "Closer than Family" bull but goes out of its way to specify that this is a thing the fans think and isn's supported by any official source. I think now this page should be set up with two sections, one section that defines it, and one section that debunks the "Cloer than family" meaning. Since that meaning is so permeated in the fanbase, it should be addressed if only to debunk it. DemonRin (talk) 20:23, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
Sounds good.20:30, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
We need to figure out what we're going to do about this page. There are still issues. Attempts to keep the page neutral are being reverted. Saying "A Majority" or "Most" fans think X gives undue weight to claims without any numbers or polls to back them up. I attempted to fix this by saying "Some fans thing" only to be told "Some" Isn't neutral when... the dictionary definition of "Some" is "being an unknown, undetermined, or unspecified unit or thing"... So "Neutral" is actually the LITERAL definition of "Some"...
Seriously, we need to take a poll and do some concensus on what to do with the article. The options are:
1: Use the article as it is right now (just make sure it's 100% Neutral)
2: Reword the article to debunk the fake special meaning, but own up to it being loved by some fans.
3: Define the term by its dictionary definition and nothing else.
Now that we've reached a turning point in the translation of the term on the Wikia overall, we need to address the elephant in the room that is this page now.DemonRin (talk) 21:08, March 2, 2013 (UTC)
I'm curious if the majority of visits this page gets is because new fans are wondering what "nakama" means. That could be this page's only purpose.23:22, March 2, 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, YEARS of misinformation have rendered it so that the word DOES have a presence in the fanbase. I'm happy to say modern fansubbers and scanners have mostly stopped the silliness and stopped perpetuating the falsehood, (Shout out to Yibis, those is good guys) but that doesn't change the fact that years of old fansubs still exist with that word left untranslated. That'd be the only reason I could see for keeping this page up. Making sure people are aware of what the word means for when they come across it.DemonRin (talk) 23:27, March 2, 2013 (UTC)
Is there a reason you're following me around and undoing every edit I make? Now that the "Nakama" thing is finally settled and this Wikia is on track to actually present accurate information, I wanted to come back and start actually helping, but you appear to want to undo all my changes. Is it out of spite? DemonRin (talk) 23:56, March 2, 2013 (UTC)
That's SeaTerror. It's sort of his job to be the Wikia's stubborn warer/not let anything go guy.00:43, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
I'm not following you around. I'm doing the job of a wiki editor and checking edits. I undo yours because they are bad. Plus I didn't undo all your edits so you can't claim I am doing it out of spite. SeaTerror (talk) 08:42, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
What? The Yibis thing? My version is neutral and simply states what they do accurately, letting the reader decide whether it's a good thing or not. Yours is peppered with your opinion, painting it in a negative light to make people think of them negatively like you do. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia. Opinion shouldn't be peppered into the actual content. You state facts and let people make up their own opinions based on those facts.DemonRin (talk) 19:09, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
Why does this still exist? The associated forum decided that it will be deleted long ago. 19:31, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
No it didn't. That forum decided we don't use the term "nakama" within our articles. Nothing was agreed for this page. And as much as I dislike it, it probably should stay but ONLY because people can learn what "nakama" means. It's way overused, and we're the first thing people turn to when they need help. Might as well tell them what it means.19:49, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
It won't teach them what it means. You learn what it means while watching the series. Anyway, I believe this page must be deleted.19:55, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
I didn't learn what it meant. From watching the series, I was completely confused because they used the word in so many situations. I thought if it meant "friend", they would translate it anyways. If a word can be translated, you translate it. Basic knowledge, right? It wasn't until I found this page when I learned what the word meant. So I suppose I support this page because of personal experience, though at its core it exists because of the stupidity of fansubbers. Deleting this will cause confusion with some fans who don't understand.20:04, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
When I first saw this word (I think Arlong Park Arc), I was like wtf is this. But then, after is was used a few times, I understood the word's meaning. You understood the meaning too, everyone did. This page is useless.20:18, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
I understood it when I researched it. As DemonRin said in this page, "YEARS of misinformation have rendered it so that the word DOES have a presence in the fanbase". This page exists so it can clarify itself. If the fanbase wasn't so into the whole "nakama" thing, THEN this page would be useless. Sadly, that isn't the case.20:52, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
This word is only used in the subbed versions. However, not everyone watches the subbed version. Some people watch the English dub too. So since this is an English Wiki, I think we should keep it. 03:11, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
Why should we keep it if they don't use it in the dub?03:24, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
This coming from the guy whose last comment was to delete it?06:23, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
Doesn't really matter if it is. All our similar articles are opioninated because its too hard to keep them neutral. Just check out the Mythbusters and Fansub articles. SeaTerror (talk) 06:58, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
Just delete this page. Who even reads it.08:48, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
People who don't know what it means.17:43, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
Everyone knows what it means....18:06, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
Because of the article.19:59, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
The error in the sub is no longer relevant, which means this page is also moot. It's a relic from an age when fansubs for no reason at all overemphasized a word they thought was important. With the ending of that age, so too can we end this page.20:24, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
But the problem is that that age still remains, albeit in a lesser way than it was. Kaizoku Fansubs is still the more popular fansub group, and when newcomers search for One Piece episodes on anime sites, 90% of the time they'll find a video stream of KF. This will once again cause confusion for the new watcher, and they want to see if it means anything.
On the other hand, when someone searches "nakama" on Google, the first result (that isn't a restaurant) is the Wikipedia definition, then this page. After that, it's Urban Dictionary. So I suppose with that we can safely remove this page. And hey, maybe removing this page will be the first effect in which fans will stop using the stupid term. Ya never know. I'll still be on the side of keep, though, just for the chance of confused new fans.20:33, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
You know what, I changed my mind. Keeping this page here will give the word credit it doesn't deserve. All it serves, or what it should serve, is that can be given from a simple Google search. This is useless. Murder it harder than Ace.20:53, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
Google wouldn't tell you crap. Since the word itself for One Piece only has a an actual special meaning. This article needs to remain. Also it needs a poll if people want to delete it. SeaTerror (talk) 22:11, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
"The word itself for One Piece only has a an actual special meaning" WTF ST. It's a Japanese word. It doesn't have a special meaning for One Piece. Seriously...07:42, June 17, 2013 (UTC)
I think the page needs another re-write to make the word sound less special, but otherwise it should stay. We must inform others of the error they've made. If because of some fluke, the page does get deleted, it should be moved to Mythbusters/Misunderstandings and Mistranslations. Actually, I might be a good idea to move it there anyways, and have "Nakama" redirect there. Talk | 11:51, September 15, 2013 (UTC)
- All of what I've said is opinion and I'm really starting to be offended that you cannot hold your tongue and respect my opinion. Talk | 18:07, September 15, 2013 (UTC)
Why don't we rename it as "friendship"? The word has no special meaning, and that's basically what it translates to. The article itself is about friendship, so why not name it that? It can reduce its specialty.15:58, September 19, 2013 (UTC)
Cause it has nothing to do with One Piece.16:05, September 19, 2013 (UTC)
Nah I just randomly edit the wiki.17:46, September 19, 2013 (UTC)
Just delete it. Yes, friendship is a theme, but so are violence and comic relief, and you don't see us making pages for them. Kill it with fire.17:47, September 19, 2013 (UTC)
We CAN delete it if there's a clear majority. I say delete it. The forum showed how the word has no important. The definition is important, not the word. If we must keep it, rename it so it doesn't cater the weeaboos.19:21, September 19, 2013 (UTC)
Alright, I made up a 3-option, 2 week test poll. I've forgotten if we're supposed to move all article deletion polls to forums though. I know it was discussed in Forum:Poll Rules, but I don't have the time to read it and see if that idea was supported. Poll starts Tuesday if there are no problems with it. I'm probably not gonna be editing too much the next few days, fyi. Talk | 13:33, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
Looks nice.16:47, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
Bad as in you personally don't like it? Or can you come up with some kind of truly unbaised reason as to why it shouldn't be there? And we've done a similar thing before with the fan term Gear First. Talk | 17:50, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
Because it would be incredibly wrong to put it there. Those articles are not for personal opinions but for actual mythbusters. It doesn't belong on the poll nor that article. SeaTerror (talk) 17:53, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
Well, it's a myth that "nakama" has a special meaning, so in all actuality, it does belong on Mythbusters.18:21, September 20, 2013 (UTC)
It's personal opinion either way, depending on your own views. I see calling it special as a personal opinion, you see calling it not special as a personal opinion. When an issue like this pops up, the only way we can deal with it is to poll the issue. Talk | 04:07, September 21, 2013 (UTC)
Which is exactly the reason it DOES NOT belong on the mythbusters page. That page is only for actual myths and is not for personal opinions. This poll only needs the first two options. SeaTerror (talk) 06:07, September 21, 2013 (UTC)
Many users believe it's myth that fan term has meaning. Many don't. The only way this can be settled is to get more than 2 people arguing about this, which is best done via a poll. So just let the poll decide. Talk | 14:39, September 21, 2013 (UTC)
A word can't be a myth.14:43, September 21, 2013 (UTC)
It's not the word that's a myth; it's the definition.16:15, September 21, 2013 (UTC)
Your personal opinion is a personal opinion hence why it doesn't belong on the mythbusters page. The poll cannot have that option on it since the article is NOT for personal opinions. SeaTerror (talk) 16:26, September 21, 2013 (UTC)
I see it as fact that the word has no special meaning, based on how the term is also used by other crews and does not carry any special meaning. It is a misunderstanding that it has any special meaning, and therefore making it a mistranslation. Since it is both a mistranslation and a misunderstanding, it definitely belongs on Mythbusters/Misunderstandings and Mistranslations. Given the facts, the page belongs on the myth busters page. I don't see any of that as subjective opinion, though I know you see just the opposite. Since we can't settle it, we should poll it. Talk | 13:29, September 23, 2013 (UTC)
No it is a personal opinion that you see it as that. Go read the page and you will see the page is for actual myths and not personal opinions. Since there are no facts here but personal opinions, it does not belong on the poll at all. SeaTerror (talk) 17:58, September 23, 2013 (UTC)
ST is right here. This is no place for thoughts and opinions, not even the mythbusters page because it's simply NOT A MYTH.18:00, September 23, 2013 (UTC)
The word is basically fan termed. It have a special meaning because of the fanbase. It have absolutely no relevance to One Piece at all. Go to the page, and you'll see it's full of myths and speculation and a bunch of stupid misunderstandings, which we do not allow. Since we apparently cannot come to an agreement, let's poll it.20:14, September 23, 2013 (UTC)
I think it's a clear case of misinterpratation, but not a mistranslation nor a misunderstanding. The word was most of the times translated correctly by fansub groups, it's just that the fans gave it a wrong approach, mainly due to the drama of some of the scenes in was used in. So I think it the page should be deleted without being mentioned on the mythbusters, but I don't see why this option shouldn't be in the poll. If many users share it then it should be heard, that's what a poll really means right?
Personal opinions don't belong on that article so it would be absolutely wrong to put it on there as a "myth" since it isn't a myth. It is just a personal opinion. SeaTerror (talk) 20:47, September 23, 2013 (UTC)
Nakama is not a myth, it is a word that is used in the original Japanese, and is translated to "comrade" and such in both dub and scans. Besides, it's like "Superhuman Strength", which was stated in vague manners (Kairiki), and we went to make a page out of it, before finally deciding to delete it out of being too vague.03:55, September 24, 2013 (UTC)
The third option should stay. It's not about the term itself being a myth, but how english fans attach special value to its meaning. I've added the option back so that others who read this discussion can see what we're talking about. It shouldn't be removed until the poll discussion is over. I've also re-worded the poll option to make it sound less biased. And I find the most recent post asking to open the poll unfair, since if it had opened, I would not have the time to respond to the things said after my last post.
We already agreed to not use the term in any of our articles in Forum:Nakama Translation, which makes the wiki's de facto definition the non-special translation. Why should we cling to this page which still treats the term special with incredibly biased content? The wiki's attitude towards the term has changed for the worse in recent times, but most of the page's content was written six years ago in 2007 and has remained unchanged. In fact, looking at the history, any recent attempts at making the article less biased have been undone by SeaTerror months later when people don't notice. (If the article remains, it needs to be rewritten and locked.) And as much as I dislike the term, deleting the page is a terrible option. Deleting it makes it so that we cannot inform people who are looking for a definition of the word. If we redirect it to mythbusters, we can still inform people of the definition of the term, as well as the controversy around its use. It's the best outcome of this poll, because it leads to the least biased content that can still inform about both sides of issue. Talk | 13:38, September 24, 2013 (UTC)
If poeple are looking for a definition of the word, they should refer to a dictionary not a wikia. If they re looking for the fanboy translation and we provide it, even on mythbuster background, it's like giving, or rather, promoting false information, which is the very thing we try to avoid daily. Saying that, I still believe all three options should be available on the poll, cause this is how democracy works and all opinions should be heard.
Once again, read the article. It does not belong on the article because IT IS NOT A MYTH. The article is ONLY for actual myths. Just read it. There are absolutely zero personal opinions on that page. There are only two people who want that on the poll anyway. SeaTerror (talk) 18:03, September 24, 2013 (UTC)
It's either a misunderstanding that the term is special, or a misunderstanding that it's not. Those alone show they belong on the page. Mythbusters isn't just for myths; it's for unconfirmed content that are highly debated among the fanbase. Therefore, it belongs in misunderstandings.
You're the only one who has a problem with it, anyways, so how 'bout you just sit tight while we move the page there?18:38, September 24, 2013 (UTC)
Its your own personal opinion that its a misunderstanding. Also what you just said is false since it really is only for myths. If you move the page there then I'll remove it since personal opinions don't belong there. Plus you're blind since I'm not the only one who said it doesn't belong on there. It also does not belong as a poll option for reasons previously stated. Both you and Just actually need to read the article since there are absolutely no personal opinions on it. SeaTerror (talk) 18:41, September 24, 2013 (UTC)
A word is not a myth. All of your arguments are actually mere opinions.17:58, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
All right you knuckleheads, here's what we're going to do, we're going to bump up the starting date of this poll and let the people decide. After that, the loser will more than likely complain or cry foul, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.03:35, September 26, 2013 (UTC)
Too bad that's not the opinion of the larger collective. Otherwise you'd have rock-solid reasoning to can it. Oh well.03:48, September 26, 2013 (UTC)
Alright then, it's open. Talk | 03:51, September 26, 2013 (UTC)
Then you're blind since more people wanted it removed than wanted it in. Just read the forum. Even Yata didn't want it in. Only Just and Nada wanted it left in. SeaTerror (talk) 03:53, September 26, 2013 (UTC)
|This is a poll regarding what to do with the Nakama article.|