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Beasts Pirates[]
Was he said to be a member? Rhavkin (talk) 08:19, May 11, 2020 (UTC)
I wouldn't put him as a member, is speculation. Cracker-Kun (talk) 12:29, May 11, 2020 (UTC)
Haki[]
His weapon is black so it's hard to tell, but the black lightning effect is usually the effect of Busoshoku Haki, right? Shouldn't it be included? (Shadoguardian (talk) 05:52, June 23, 2020 (UTC))
Given that the attack has thunder in it's name, it night not be such clear cut. Rhavkin (talk) 06:17, June 23, 2020 (UTC)
Lightning from Haki only happens during clashes. Which is just a generic clash effect used in most manga anyway. SeaTerror (talk) 19:09, June 23, 2020 (UTC)
Well, now that we've seen Yamato's hands turn black in preparation for Narikabura, I think it's safe to say that they used Busōshoku Haki, at least for that attack. Wouldn't you say so? 24.205.57.183 19:54, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
It was Busoshoku Haki, no doubt about that. However, I don't agree with the Advanced Haki part. She used Haki to empower his attack, but it wasn't projected Haki. To me it was just raw strength, something like a flying slash attack, without the slash part. 186.12.220.175 08:50, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
I do agree, there's no evidence it was Ryuo and with flying slash being part of most of swordmen's moveset, it can surely be addressed as a clear Ryuo imbued attack. Flying hits using compressed air goes back to middle Skypiea arc. RAYleigh92 @\_/@ talk 21:18, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
The strike that hit Hatcha, maybe, however the long-distance strike against the Armored Corp was textbook Haki projection. It was essentially invisible until it struck, whereas flying slashes seen so far have been very visible. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 03:22, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Dunno, it kinda seems off. The most long range ryuo imbued attack we saw so far is Luffy exploding the tree and it was still near him. Yamato's hits seems more like compressed air bullet. I'm not saying it is not ryuo, just we don't have enough stuff to state it and I'm suggesting we should keep it vague until we have confirmation. RAYleigh92 @\_/@ talk 11:22, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Gender[]
We might as well start this now, since this might be a long debate. I say Yamato should still be consider male just like Kikunojo is female. Objections? Rhavkin (talk) 14:38, July 3, 2020 (UTC)
I dunno. Doesn't the chapter introduce Yamato as "Kaido's daughter"? That introduction box is probably key depending on the Japanese term used. If it's something more gender neutral-sounding then I support going with the male pronouns. KingCannon (talk) 15:02, July 3, 2020 (UTC)
The infobox says she is a girl, so she is a girl, this doesn't need debate.Cracker-Kun (talk) 16:26, July 3, 2020 (UTC)
We are not discussing this further until the chapter is officially out. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 16:29, July 3, 2020 (UTC)
Alright, so after some thought I've protected this page for two more days, to keep editing traffic stable.
Regarding the question of Yamato's gender, I'm with KingCannon and Cracker-Kun on this one. Her presentation as a man seems to revolve around her styling after Oden, plus she is officially called Kaido's daughter in her intro box, so I think it's safe to refer to her as female at least for the time being. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 16:10, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Kikunojo had an infobox referring to him as a male (as Izo's younger brother). Yamato was referred as a male multiple times. Rhavkin (talk) 16:12, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Agreed with Kaido. Awaikage Talk 16:16, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Kikunojo was introduced as Izo's brother in the flashback. She described herself as a woman in the current timeline.
Conversely, Yamato was first mentioned as Kaido's son but was introduced in the current timeline as his daughter. Montblanc Noland :: Talk 16:21, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
And on the same page Yamato said "Well, Kozuki Oden was a man, wasn't he?! So I chose to be a man too!!". Rhavkin (talk) 16:24, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Well, I interpret that as she wants to inherit her will and be like him, but it does not necessarily mean that she identifies herself as a man. Cracker-Kun (talk) 16:47, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
I agree with cracker. She wants to be like Oden, she doesn't want to be a man, at least it's not stated so. Also, as as said here, the infobox called her daughter, not son. But to be fair and play Devil's Advocate, Kaido referred to her as his son. Maybe she wants to be a man, or maybe she wants people to think she's like Oden, either is possible. (Dot Talk) 16:51, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
So that person claim to be a man, dress like a (specific) man, is called son by others, but was written once with as a female, and that is? So if Luffy latest infobox called him Luffytaro, should we rename the entire wiki? Of course not. Luffy being surprised by Yamoto appearance mirror Chopper's reaction about Kiku being a man, and the notion was rejected by Kiku and Yamato the same way. Rhavkin (talk) 16:55, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Name is incomparable to someone's gender. Really doesn't matter how many times she/he is referred to as a man, if Oda never explicitly says someone identifies as transgender, then it is just assumptions. Nightmare Pirates (talk) 17:43, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
So how is that different from Kiku whose only infobox introduced the character as male? Rhavkin (talk) 17:45, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
That was actually never debated in the original discussion because I think it came out a while afterwards. I think we should have taken Oda's word for it as opposed to assumptions based on what we think something means.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 17:50, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Kiku was further confirmed to be female in SBS Volume 96 when a fan called her "the only female among the Nine Red Scabbards" and Oda rolled with it. There's really no doubt with her. Yamato presents as male as part of her styling after Oden, and this is acknowledged by others, but is still stated by Oda to be female. Mind you this is all in the present day whereas Kiku was only stated to be male in a flashback to 40 years ago. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 18:12, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
This isn't about Kiku, it's about the fact that infoboxs aren't always trust worthy. Even Oda sometimes use infobox to misinform the readers, and the Yamato's infobox is the only thing that says "female". Rhavkin (talk) 18:17, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Let's not assume Oda wants to "misinform" readers. But if that is the case, he has a reason for doing that then - in that he is purposefully not using the infobox to confirm the opposite. Also, the SBS doesn't provide a concrete confirmation for Kiku, Oda just answered the question that asked about bathing without debating otherwise which is typical of Oda. Also we don't know when the question was asked.--Nightmare Pirates (talk) 18:22, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Yamato said that he chose to be a man and Kaido refers to Yamato as his son. If the characters in-universe refer to Yamato as a man then why would we not also do that? Multiple times on this Wiki we've shown deference to how characters choose to identify themselves rather than the technically correct thing: Gol D. Ace, Cutty Flam, Vinsmoke Sanji, Kiku being assigned male at birth. I don't see how this is any different than those examples. The infobox shouldn't overrule how the character is literally referred to in the story. The fact that KAIDO of all characters actually respects Yamato calling himself a man seems pretty conclusive to me. DewClamChum (talk) 18:34, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
I agree with DewClamChum. He is referred to by Kaido as his son, and is referred to as male by everybody who knows him. That said, the infobox does list him as "daughter". At this point it's too early to tell for sure one way or another, but in the meantime we should use male pronouns to refer to him because that is the only way he is referred to in canon. GumGumGirl (talk) 18:36, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Kiku said "I'm a woman at heart" which was part of that debate. Yamato never said anything like "I'm a man at heart". It's obvious that Yamato is just pretending to be a man in this case. SeaTerror (talk) 18:48, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Throwing in my two cents, Kiku was introduced as everyone, even herself, acting and assuming she was female, and only later was it revealed she was trans. Yamato was called son, yes, until the reveal, after which the infobox clearly specifies Yamato is Kaido's daughter, not son. Besides, as SeaTerror said, Yamato so far does not appear to be trans, she's merely pretending to be a man to imitate her hero. I suggest we wait with calling her "him" until it's clear how Yamato views herself. Timjer (talk) 18:51, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Pretending for who? Kaido? The Beasts Pirates? those who recognize Yamato as male? If Yamato is able to remember Oden's death, then right now the character is well over 20 years old. Do you honestly believe everyone that was present at the time forgot Yamato gender? Obviously at a certain point "she" started calling "her"self "he", and Kaido and his followers went with it, so Yamato is a male for at least two years, since Drake joined. Rhavkin (talk) 19:01, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
I posted my two cents on reddit a while ago:
- "He'd basically invalidate the very same fact he just established (Yamato being FtM). Not only would that be weird storytelling, it would also be straight-up public transphobia by Oda. Which would be very unlike him, considering Kiku etc."
- "Either she's FtM trans and Oda intentionally misgendered her, thus being the transphobic mangaka of a manga where people like Kiku and the Okama exist... or Yamato's a fangirl of Oden that aims to be him so much that she's cosplaying him (and/or possibly does it to deceive Kaido)."
- "It's easily solved if you compare it to Kiku. Kiku says she's a woman at heart, so that's why she lives as a woman. Yamato says Oden was a man and she admires him, so that's why she lives as a man. Not because she herself feels like a man. If Oden was a woman, Yamato would've stayed a woman as well. It's like a little girl dressing as Spider-Man or such. The infobox just corroborates that."
Bottom line: It makes no sense for Oda to make his characters refer to Yamato as male, then display her as female and call her Yamato's daughter and then also make her FtM trans. If he wanted her to be trans, he'd called her "son" in the introduction box. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:11, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
I believe daughter is correct. You have to pay attention to certain word use. She chose to live as a man because she identified with Oden, not because she identified as a man. She was hiding her identity. The infobox as well. I think it's safe to call her his daughter for now, just put the identifying with Oden part in her personality section.DancePowderer Talk 19:43, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Not a single person has called him "she" or "her" in text. Not a single character has referred to him in any feminine way at all except for Luffy, and Yamato's immediate response was to say that he "became a man" at some point in the past. He refers to himself as male, others refer to him as male. All meta-commentary aside, the fact that he is treated as and refered to as male in every instance besides the infobox is proof enough that we should refer to him as male until additional information and clarification comes out in later chapters/SBS. GumGumGirl (talk) 19:53, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Honestly, I personally feel this debate is pointless. As said here, infoboxes don't reveal a lot of truth. Kiku was stated as a her by Oda but we still went with trans, which is honestly just SJW work disguised as "being true to the story and in universe characters". Yamato acting like Oden is, again, as stated here, like a girl dressing up as a male superhero, just because she is a fan of a male superhero, you wouldn't call a little girl trans would you? Kaido calling Yamato his son may be him going along with her act. She was inspired by the execution right? Maybe she's been acting like Oden all the way since then? Maybe most of the Beasts Pirates don't even know she's actually a woman and they're(Kaido, Yamato and others who knew her gender) just keeping up with the act Yamato has put up? Kaido has only called her "son" in front of the Flying Six so far, who we know weren't originally members of the crew but are captains of their own crews, and it's known a part of them aren't exactly "loyal" to Kaido. Yamato herself didn't say she thinks she's a man. Nor did she state she prefers the pronoun he. Who are we to assume she is trans? Isn't that just the debate of "Who are you to assume I'm cis?" but reversed? Oden is simply her idol, who she wants to be like, not the cause of her "becoming trans". Maybe calling her Kaido's son wasn't even supposed to mean anything but were simply Oda's method of either making her actual gender a surprise, or maybe her being a female wasn't even planned, we have no way to know. But what we do know is that she is female. And we go with that. (Dot Talk) 20:06, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
This isn't about relitigating Kikunojo. This is about analyzing the text and only the text. We need to remove all outside context of "transness" and focus specifically on what we read in the text. Here are the facts as presented in the manga:
-Yamato is referred to as "son" by Kaido, and with male pronouns by everyone else who knows them. Whether this is out of respect or some other reason isn't known so we can't speculate on the reason.
-Yamato said that they decided to "become a man" at some point, meaning that they think of themselves as a man and self-identify as a man.
-Yamato is referred to as "daughter" by the infobox.
All in all, there is no way to say for 100% certain whether he or she is the correct pronoun to use for Yamato at this point in time, and anyone who says they are certain one way or another is pushing an agenda. However, I think that there is more evidence at this specific moment that Yamato should be referred to as a "he". This may change in the future, but until we get strong evidence one way or the other, I think the text supports referring to Yamato as he. GumGumGirl (talk) 20:15, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
I don't see any reason to call her a man. Of course everyone thinks she's a man, as far as we know they haven't even seen her face under the mask. She only wants to honor Oden, unless she starts to call herself a man we should go with female. Also, Oda makes it SUPER OBVIOUS when someone is a gender or another, Kiku looks like a girl not a male. Pau D. Seven·Talk 20:18, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
You mean like in 983 where Yamato introduced "him"self to Luffy as Kaido's son? Rhavkin (talk) 20:23, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
The case of Yamato is not the same as the case of Kiku. While Kiku feels like a woman, Yamato wants to be treated like a man just because she wants to be like Oden, who was a man. --cdavymatias (talk) 20:28, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
The only thing I ask is that we leave bias at the door and ground our thoughts and discussion in the text instead of letting this discussion become part of whatever ongoing culture war it's apparently a part of. Again, if you can find strong textual evidence for referring to Yamato as "she" then I will gladly change my position, but I believe that there is, at this current moment, more evidence for referring to them as "he" and the wiki entry should reflect this until furhter information comes out. GumGumGirl (talk) 20:32, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Why would Oda write "daughter" when Yamato is male, then? • Seelentau 愛 議 20:33, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
I'm prefectly willing to alter my opinion once it's clear how Yamato views herself, but until then the infobox clearly calls her Kaido's daughter. Plus, it's not that Yamato blatantly identifies as male, she just likes to pretend she's Oden, who's her great hero. Timjer (talk) 20:35, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
It's not our place to speculate on why Oda wrote "daughter" in that case because that's not the text.. It's our place to note that he DID write daughter there, and that maens something, but also that every other character has referred to them as "he" or with similarly masculine words. As I said, it's impossible to tell 100% one way or another, but at this point there is more evidence that Yamato should be referred to as "he", and the wiki should reflect that until there is more evidence or confirmation in later chapters/SBS. GumGumGirl (talk) 20:38, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
And why exactly are you assuming that Yamato is FtM trans then? How do you know the reason Kaido etc. refer to her with male pronouns? Why are you implying that there can't be any other reason for that? And why exactly should we ignore Oda's author info in this case? It's as, if not more valid than the in-universe information we receive. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:41, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
I fully agree that it's too ambiguous right now, and we should wait until future chapters and translations to be sure enough, but to me the evidence for now leans more towards Yamato being a "she". Yamato is called by female terms by the narrator, and doesn't seem to object when Luffy is confused. It seems more like she is referred to as "son" because of Kaido humoring her "make believe", so to speak. Timjer (talk) 20:44, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
I mean, she even gives the reason herself: Because she admires Oden. Not because she feels like she was born in the wrong body or "as a man at heart". It's really plain and easy overzealous fangirling. The infobox just corroborates that. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:47, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
I never said anything about Yamato being "Ftm Trans" or anything like that. I even specifically said that we need to remove this discussion from outside context and explicitly mentioned "transness" in that outside context. I'm saying that we don't know the reason Kaido refers to them with male pronouns. There CAN be another reason for that, I said that earlier. I'm not saying to ignore the infobox either. I even specifically said that we can't ignore it completely. Please read my posts before replying. What I am saying is that there is MORE evidence that we should refer to Yamato as "he" (Kaido referring to them as "son", others referring to them in a masculine way, Yamato saying that they "became a man") then there is that we should refer to them as "she" (the infobox). That could very well change at some point in the future. But until it does change, we have a duty to refer to characters as how they are referred to in the text. The wiki isn't about feelings, it's about facts. The facts point to Yamato as a "he", even if it doesn't confirm 100% one way or the other, and that is still subject to change as more information comes out. GumGumGirl (talk) 20:48, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
" we have a duty to refer to characters as how they are referred to in the text." Yes, I agree. And the text of the Narrator and Infobox clearly refer to Yamato as female. And you'd think the narrator and infoboxes are more informed and objective than the characters in the story itself... Timjer (talk) 20:50, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
The narrator never actually makes any mention of Yamato's gender, it is only the infobox. That's one source versus several others in-text. It's too early to tell for certain, but there is more evidence to point to Yamato as a "he". GumGumGirl (talk) 20:52, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
The whole point is that after the characters referred to Yamato as male, Oda still called her "daughter". If Yamato is a "he", then Oda would've followed suit. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:56, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Kanjuro and Momonosuke are all the evidence we need to say that Oda adds or omits information in infoboxs as he see fit, and it rarely effect the whole character page. Kiku was identified as "younger brother Kikunojo" in a flashback, and "tea house poster girl Kiku" in the present. When we have conflicting information from an infobox we need to take it with a grain of salt when discussing such a big change, and since the infobox is the only point in favor of Yamato is a female argument, the page need to be reverted to have yamato male until this discussion is over. Rhavkin (talk) 20:57, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Again you're speculating on the author's intention, which we still don't know completely yet. All we know is that Yamato refers to themself as a "son", as a "man" (as in "became a man"), other characters refer to them in masculine ways, and the infobox lists them as "daughter". Speculating on authorial intention is outside of the scope here. But the character, in canon, refers to themself in a masculine way. That's strong evidence to point to Yamato being a "he". I don't disagree that the infobox is evidence that points to the opposite! But the facts are weighted more towards "he" at this exact moment. GumGumGirl (talk) 20:59, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
@Rhavkin: Of course he does. But what information is there to omit when it comes to gender? Characters called Yamato male, he calls her "daughter" nevertheless. If she was male, he would've called her "son". As for Kiku, in the past she identified as male, in the present not anymore. Pretty clear cut, again.
@GumGumGirl: I'm not really speculating anything. Where's the speculation in "after the characters referred to Yamato as male, Oda still called her "daughter". If Yamato is a "he", then Oda would've followed suit."? Why would he call her "daughter", when he could easily call her "son" to corroborate the in-universe information about her? Besides, it's not even our job to speak for characters. Just because Yamato refers to herself with male pronouns, it doesn't mean that we have to, if we have conflicting information from the author. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:05, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
I'm just gonna quote Seel here cuz it's a very good point yall just ignore. "And why exactly are you assuming that Yamato is FtM trans then? How do you know the reason Kaido etc. refer to her with male pronouns? Why are you implying that there can't be any other reason for that?" (Dot Talk) 21:08, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
You are speculating when you ask "Why would Oda call Yamato 'daughter'" in the infobox and then de facto answer the question yourself by saying it's because Yamato is meant to be referred to as a "she". However, we do not have to speculate on Yamato or where they stand on the issue: They explicitly state that they are a man (again, the "I became a man" line). The fact that this was inspired by Oden is irrelevant to the outcome, which is "Yamato and people who know Yamato call them a man". I'm not trying to discount evidence, I'm really not, and I admit I don't know why the infobox says "daughter", but speculating on Oda's intention is not strong enough evidence to overturn the rest of the evidence at this point.
@Dot, I already addressed that in a previous post. Feel free to look back and read it, then reply to it. GumGumGirl (talk) 21:12, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. It's like this "Oda makes a character he created refer to itself as "male", but calls it "female" himself." and you say "Yeah, the character's own words obviously weigh more than the words of its creator". And I'm not speculating on the reason why he called her daughter, because it doesn't matter. The important point is that despite having his own characters use male pronouns, he still called her "daughter", when it would've been just as easy to simply write "son". The question should be: Why didn't he call her "son" if that's what she is? And since that's the point you advocate for, it's up to you to speculate/answer. Besides, again: We don't speak for characters. We document information. When a character constantly uses male pronouns for someone, but Oda still calls that person daughter, we use female pronouns. After all, we don't write from a character's point of view.
A reverse example would again be Kiku: iirc, in-universe, the Strawhats referred to her as male, right? By your logic, we would refer to Kiku as male because the characters did so, even though Oda himself stated her to be female. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:24, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
The problem with that logic is that you are taking infoboxes as Word of God like the SBS instead of as another narrative tool. They aren't Oda speaking to the reader, and can be used for any number of purposes that we can't speculate on. Taking infoboxes as absolute instead of as one more piece of information among a sea of information would open up a huge can of worms that we really shouldn't want to go into. GumGumGirl (talk) 21:30, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Of course infoboxes are a narrative tool, and Oda uses it as such in this situation: He introduces a character that is always referred to as male, makes it refer to itself as male and then still calls the character "daughter" instead of "son". Which, in my opinion, makes it more than obvious that Yamato is simply fangirling for Oden so much that she even wants to be male, like him. And as I said multiple times now: We're not writing the articles from the character's perspective. We don't need to refer to her as "him" just because she does it herself. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:34, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
You're assuming Oda's intent with the infobox again. We don't have 100% confirmation one way or the other and treating any single piece of information as definitive proof at this point is just trying to push an agenda, and being subjective about it when we should be trying our best to be objective. Objectively, there is more evidence to support "he" at this point in time. That could change later, but it hasn't yet. GumGumGirl (talk) 21:39, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Please, how is stating the fact that Oda called her a daughter instead of a son an assumption? Did you not read the chapter? It's right there. And agenda? Not sure why you're making this personal, but that's a rich statement coming from someone who hasn't contributed to the wiki in any way, except for this single topic. And while we're on a personal level anyway, you should probably know that I've been working on wikis for over ten years. I'm not participating here because I'm following some agenda. All I'm bringing to the table is years of experience when it comes to how wikis handle controversial stuff. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:46, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Yamato is a much trickier case than Kikunojo due to authorial exposition being completely at odds with what the story shows.
There's a lot of stuff to consider here. For example, is Yamato presenting him/herself as male because that's how he/she views him/herself or is that solely because of Oden's idolatry? Do the other characters besides Kaido know his/her true identity? We know that Yamato doesn't want to unmask in front of other people, so it's entirely possible their true identity is a mystery to everybody in the crew (except the father obviously), so they just roll with Kaido's usage of "son".
We don't really have much context besides Yamato being a fan of Oden, and that dictating how the character behaves. It does feel like Yamato is just playing a character, even though Kaido brings up "son" occasionally. I'm leaning towards having Yamato as female at least until we know more about their relationship with Kaido, but I'm not against the opposite either.
Again, this doesn't have to be definitive. Things can easily change in the future as more info comes in. KingCannon (talk) 21:52, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
"because that's how she views him/herself or is that solely because of Oden's idolatry?" - Yamato herself said that it was because Oden was male. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:55, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
For the record Seel, I only brought up "agenda" because you said I was trying to call Yamato FtM trans which I explicitly said I'm not. But fine, fair, point withdrawn. As for my account, I've been a contributor for over a year and am only using this account for this topic because I don't want my main to be associated with controversial topics like this. As for the matter at hand, I suppose it boils down to whether you consider the single infobox as more definitive than the several other points of evidence including the words of the character in canon. Considering that on most topics of gender, the person in question is generally regarded as having a right to identify themself as they wish and have the right to have that identity be respected, and considering that was the reasoning used for Kikunojo on this very wiki, I suggest that we should use that same reasoning here until more evidence comes forward to confirm one way or the other. GumGumGirl (talk) 21:57, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
I'd agree with you, if it weren't for the facts that a) Oda himself used "daughter", despite making his characters use "son" etc. and b) Yamato saying that she calls herself "male" because Oden was male, not because she identifies as male. Kiku does, she quite literally said to feel female at heart. Yamato does it because somone she admires just happens to be male. And as a wiki, we should document that she refers to herself as male, but that she isn't trans. The way we talk about her doesn't necessarily need to be the way in-universe is talked about her, you know? In the end, it's still Oda's manga and he called her "daughter". • Seelentau 愛 議 22:09, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
I would still argue your B point but the exact grammar of the sentence is SUPER important and at the end of the day we're getting a translation and not the actual effective canon. I will say that I agree with KingCannon in what I've been saying all along, which is that at this point it's impossible to say for certain, but given the english translation of the specific sentence saying "I became a man" which is effectively comparable to "I am a woman at heart", we should refer to Yamato as male until further information comes out. I agree that it's super weird that Oda would have a character self-identify as a man and then call them something different in the very next sentence! In fact, it's SO strange for Oda given what we know about him that I have to believe that there's something going on with it, but that's speculation, just like its speculation to say Oda meant it as definitive fact. As a wiki, we should also note that Yamato was born female, just like we note that Kikunojo was born male. But I suppose it will be decided the same way as Kiku: with a vote several weeks from now. GumGumGirl (talk) 22:17, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Infoboxes are Word of God, and are to be taken as official unless:
- Their information is proven to be false.
- Their information becomes outdated.
- Their information is INDISPUTABLY a mistake.
It is not our job to try and speculate about potential twists, red herrings, and mistakes Oda makes, if anything it runs counter to our purpose as a wiki. We stated that Momonosuke was Kin'emon's son for four years until his true family was revealed, and we were not wrong to do so. We simply take the facts as they come and weigh potentially conflicting information as appropriately as possible. I agree with the idea that Yamato being referred to as Kaido's son does not necessarily mean that she is undoubtedly transgender and that the infobox is mistaken, especially given her reasoning for presenting as a man. I think it's a better idea to officially label her a female like the manga does while noting that she is frequently regarded as a man, rather than the other way around. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 22:26, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
@GumGumGirl: Well, good thing that I'm a translator by trade. The grammar in Yamato's words is fairly easy. She says "Kozuki Oden is a man, right!? That's why I became a man!!". That's not at all comparable to "I am a woman at heart". In both situations, the respective characters gave the reason for why they refer to themselves with male/female pronouns. For Kiku it was an inwards reason (she feels like a woman), for Yamato it was an outwards reason (she wants to be like Oden). And as a wiki, we took Oda's own words into consideration (he said Kiku was a female in the SBS, iirc) and as such use female pronouns. And the same should be done here: Take Oda's infobox information into consideration and use female pronouns. We're not speculating in any way by doing so. We simply take Oda's words at face value. And if he later changes anything, we act accordingly. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:28, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
I just want to ask one simple question? Have y'all heard of Mulan? And before anyone says it, no, Mulan was not transgender. I can't capitalize a period, but to prove my point - People have dif reasons for doing stuff. Capital Period.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 23:25, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
That was my likening and reasoning as well. It could very well be a Mulan type of scenario.DancePowderer Talk 00:05, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
There's no reason to use separate accounts for discussions. So far there's a clear majority to call Yamato female. SeaTerror (talk) 00:20, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
I'm still on the side of male pronouns personally, but I do think it's more encyclopedic if we use female pronouns for now. After thinking about it more I agree that it takes less speculation to refer to Yamato as a woman. The infobox should trump what the characters in the story say, we shouldn't assume that it's misleading. There could technically be a plethora of reasons for Kaido and Yamato to say son instead of daughter (even if I personally can't think of any good ones lol). If Yamato truly identifies as a man I think that will probably become apparent in the story eventually since her idolization of Oden will most likely be a relevant plot point. So I think it'd be best to keep the female pronouns until we get new information. DewClamChum (talk) 00:26, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
Since we have 13 users for female and 2 for male, I'm going to put this discussion to rest for the time being until future chapters potentially develop this further. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 00:47, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
I’m deciding Yamato is male. If Kikunojo identifies herself as a woman despite being biologically male, than Yamato is allowed to identify himself as a man despite being biologically female. OishiLover75 (talk) 03:57, July 6, 2020
- Who ever said that Yamato's reasoning is less then Kiku's? Which ever reason a person have to change is valid. Yamato didn't say "Oden was a man, so I dress like a man", or "Oden was a man so I told everyone to call me a man", what was said is "Oden was a man, so I became a man".
- Oda is also the one writing the character text, and, he wrote Yamato is Kaido's son multiple times, including from Yamato self introduction.
- Do anyone here truly believe Yamato started to be addressed as male by Kaido because Yamato wanted to be like Oden, and that Kaido would accept that? There are obviously more reasons.
Rhavkin (talk) 04:24, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
Well last time I checked, transgender people don't go "Hey my role model is a man. I want to be a man too." Pretty sure the general claim is that they have forever felt they were in the wrong body, and that the cause is biological (genes-wise) and not one day they want to change because their role model is of an opposite gender.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 04:34, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
How can we tell Yamato hasn't "forever felt they were in the wrong body"? And people can discover their "true self" at any point. Rhavkin (talk) 04:40, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
Transgender is a real life term. That's how we know that Yamato is not transgender. Which is why Kiku's article does not also use the term. SeaTerror (talk) 06:04, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
Not officially back so feel free not to count me in the vote, but I thought I'd leave this here. https://twitter.com/newworldartur/status/1279861372088713217/photo/2 Also, my understanding is that Japan uses somewhat different terminology for trans people compared to English speaking countries, so that could explain the daughter bit in the info box. Videogamep Talk 06:14, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
Artur also made up stuff before so there's no reason to take that serious. SeaTerror (talk) 06:16, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
Well yes, we have no idea if being a trans person is even a thing in-universe, if we want to go as per "How the character identifies" (bs, imo), they can't identify as trans if the only lgbtq+ seen in-universe is okama. Either way, our wiki exists for giving facts about the series. Not to make the trans community feel good about themselves. Just because we dont randomly call our characters trans doesn't mean we're against trans people. It just means we haven't officially told she is trans. Just because you think they're trans, they don't become trans. (Dot Talk) 06:32, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
Rhavkin, you ask "How can we tell Yamato hasn't 'forever felt they were in the wrong body'?", but you also said in the comment before that "what was said is 'Oden was a man, so I became a man.'" From the wording of this sentence, you acknowledged that Yamato wanted to become a man as some sort of byproduct of Oden having have been a man. This directly contradicts your question of how can we tell Yamato hasn't forever felt they were in the wrong body. He only felt like being a boy, because of Oden, in other words, not forever. Additionally, even if we ignore that, your question "How can we tell?" can be answered by a simple "We cannot tell," which is why no assumptions are allowed.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 06:49, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
Yanato could have been man who admired Oden and after seeing his acts decided to became as much like him as possible, like the Scabbards did. There is no contradiction. Rhavkin (talk) 09:13, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
Again, assumptions and one not grounded in evidence either. "Could have" is not exactly concrete. Likewise, one can claim Yamato 'could have' been a tom boy and liked playing dress-up as a child, and then after s/he met Oden, s/he wanted to act as cool as him by being Kaido's "son". Or maybe she 'could have' believed that being female was inferior to male and so wanted to be referred to as male.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 09:54, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
I mean, if we break it down, it doesn't really matter how Yamato refers to herself. It's about how we refer to her in the articles. And to my knowledge, the wiki has rules on this, which aren't as simple as "The characters uses these pronouns, so we do the same", right? Because if we did: 1) We'd use "he" for Kiku, since she uses male pronouns, despite identifying as female. Now, you might say "But Kaido and his underlings even call Yamato 'son'". Yes, they do. But iirc, many characters also called Kiku a man, in-universe. 2) This is because in-universe characters aren't omniscient, they only know as much as the author wants them to. Due to these reasons (1 and 2), pronouns aren't enough of an indicator.
The next step would be to look at what the character calls themselves and the reasons they provide: Kiku says she feels like a woman at heart, which does sound like she's simply trans. Yamato however, according to her own words, 3) calls herself male because Oden is male. That's the sole reason the character itself provides. Going by that logic, if Oden was female, Yamato wouldn't use male pronouns.
Then, last but not least, we'd look at author information. For Kiku's infoboxes, Oda called her male in the past and female in the present, which corroborates with what Kiku herself said. With Yamato, this is not the case. Despite what she said about herself, Oda still used "daughter" in ther infobox.
And that's the whole point: For Kiku, the in-universe and author information is consistent. For Yamato, it's not. And in the end, to my knowledge, author's words trump in-universe words. So as Kaido (the sysop, not the character xD) said earlier, best course of action would be to keep Yamato female. The manga is an ever-changing product anyway, the wiki just shows a snapshot of a given point. If anything changes in the manga, the wiki changes too. So that's no problem at all, anyway. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:25, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
NP, what I said wasn't an assumption, it was a possibility equally as likely as "Yamato was a female until she saw Oden's death". The point is we don't know Yamato's full reasoning, but there are more way to honor a man a woman idolize then declaring "she" became a man, and the fact that other characters use the male pronoun, Even Kaido, who fathered Yamato. BTW, the Library of Ohara pretty much summed up most of what was said here, if anyone cares for a TL:DR. Rhavkin (talk) 16:28, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
Yamato is a man. They said they were a man, and they are a man. Choosing to identify as one gender or another (or neither) is the choice of the person. Kiku prefers female pronouns, Yamato prefers male pronouns. One needn't look for "evidence" when a person or character themselves states a preference.
EDIT: I do see now that many are arguing that this is a wiki and we should try to be encyclopedic. I would think a "Yamato was born with a vagina, but identifies as a man" in the character description would directly address people's problems Alkeeros2525 (talk) 17:42, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
It's almost as if this isn't a topic with one definitive answer, huh?^^ Oh btw, Rhavkin, Artur might be a blessing to the community, but that doesn't mean he's right or can dictate public discourse or how the wiki handles things. The latter is still up to us. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:55, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
Funny thing is that the reasons used in Library of Ohara's analysis to support Yamato being referred to as male were specifically the reasons people argued against Kiku being referred to as woman. You can't use the same subjects and bend it to suit narratives. That's cheating the system.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 19:51, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/hlsvn4/the_verdict_is_in_hes_a_him/fx17nbu/
https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/hlsvn4/the_verdict_is_in_hes_a_him/fx12kia/
Two counterpoints to Artur. SeaTerror (talk) 20:33, July 6, 2020 (UTC)
Some people were saying Yamato is trans, but I don’t think this is the same case as with Kiku. It seems more like with Dellinger in that he was raised feminine while Oda still referred to him as a male, or maybe even like with Kuina having a patriarchal upbringing, in addition to looking up to Oden’s manliness. Also interesting is that the info box referred to Yamato as Kaido’s daughter, and even one definition for the word man is “a person with the qualities associated with males, such as bravery, spirit, or toughness.” So perhaps Oda is making it less to do with gender lifestyle choices and simply more to do with Yamato wanting to be tough like Oden, and isn’t quite the same case as with Kiku and sort of lifestyle she felt like going with. I suppose we’ll just have to see how the story/Oda clarifies it from there. Crazyface201 (talk) 01:17, July 7, 2020 (UTC)
This discussion has run its course for the time being. Majority favors labeling Yamato as female. The page will be unlocked for registered users to edit. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 01:44, July 7, 2020 (UTC)
I don't understand how majority rule is applicable in this situation. If 17 people all commented that Zoro's hair was colored black in the anime, and 2 people were saying it was green, would the wiki be edited to reflect that? The official translation "I chose to be a man" is a pretty straightforward declaration. Not "I chose to act like a man." They even have Luffy questioning why would he call himself Kaido's son despite the feminine features and he says "nope, I am a man." I do, however, understand that neither side can convince the other- it's the same reason I'm sure many would agree we can't say for sure we know what Luffy's devil fruit is called, since we've only been given its name from characters in universe Alkeeros2525 (talk) 04:27, July 7, 2020 (UTC)
The manga has officially shown us Zoro's hair color. They have never officially said Yamato is trans. Your metaphors are as dumb as your comments here. (Dot Talk) 04:32, July 7, 2020 (UTC)
Everyone here is potentially engaging in misgendering a manga character, including those who want to call manga characters transgender. Last I checked, there are an unlimited amount of genders on the gender identity spectrum. To misgender Yamato as transgender is, at the very least, good intentions gone wrong, or at the worst, rather insulting. Those stating 'Yamato is trans' as a fact ignore that gender can go beyond male, female, transgender and certainly goes beyond pronouns (of which One Piece doesn't even follow pronoun conventions to begin with). Who are you to say Yamato doesn't identify as gender fluid (though also a real-life term that should be avoided) or maybe s/he wants to identify as the 'I respect Oden so I call myself male some times' gender. Therefore, that's why decisions need to be made based on what is the default and not rooted in assumptions, which is the standard in life.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 04:53, July 7, 2020 (UTC)
THANK YOU nightmare. (Dot Talk) 04:56, July 7, 2020 (UTC)
I mean, if Yamato was FtM trans, Oda himself would've misgendered her in the infobox. And why would he do that, when he established her transness in the very same chapter? It would make him looke like a transphobe, after all. The "Yamato uses male pronouns so she's trans and we should respect that" argumentation literally ignores the entire circumstances (as I already explained above), including those from real life, such as bokukko. Artur did the same, by the way. Honestly, I wish it was as easy as some pretend it to be, it would save us a lot of time and energy. But alas, such is the work we do. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:39, July 7, 2020 (UTC)
@Nightmare Pirates That would be the case, but "transgender" is considered an umbrella term. Any gender that isn't cisgender is generally agreed to be under that umbrella of transgender identity.
As for the topic at hand, the question here seems to be one of definitions and assumptions. The info box does clearly refer to Yamato as Kaido's "daughter," but do we take that in this case to refer to his identity or his sex at birth? The argument has been made that Oda would appear transphobic if he meant his character to be transgender and then defined them as "daughter." However, that idea assumes one of the following things: That Oda is perfect and understands all aspects of transgender identity enough to never slip up; Or that Oda wasn't using this info box to accentuate the surprise at learning the character is transgender, noted by Luffy's clear confusion about it.
The argument was also made that, because she idolizes Oden and cites him as the reason she "became a man," that he's actually a woman pretending to be a man. That's a crude argument at best, especially when real-life trans people tend to idolize characters and people who exemplify the change they want to see in themselves.
Oxford dictionary defines Transgender as: Designating a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond to that person's sex at birth, or which does not otherwise conform to conventional notions of sex and gender.
That says "sense of personal identity and gender." Since Yamato believes himself to be a man he is, by definition, transgender.Kobold Phoenix (talk) 07:27, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
No. (Dot Talk) 10:35, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
Everyone who knows Yamato refers to him as a man and he himself refers to himself as a man. he is a man and denying him that tiny amount of self-actualization is transphobia. If it it's so important what genitals he has you can just add he's AFAB or something. 92.34.181.158 13:05, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
Can we please talk about the fact that a mod said "No." and nothing else? Kobold Phoenix (talk) 13:11, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
Who's this "we"? You literally made an account just to comment on this talk page. There is no "we". SeaTerror (talk) 15:08, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
"We" is everyone and anyone in this conversation. You're absolutely right that I made an account to comment on this page, does that discount me from the conversation? Is this some kind of exclusive club, or is it a discussion page for a character that is clearly very controversial? Kobold Phoenix (talk) 15:10, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
Yes I just said no. What about it? (Dot Talk) 16:00, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
It's just surprising to me that someone with a measure of authority on a site that is supposedly dedicated to keeping things as factual and correct as possible is willing to outright deny facts and arguments with no explanation given, whatsoever. If I'd known that on this site dedicated to information I could just deny whatever I was arguing against, I would have started with that. Kobold Phoenix (talk) 16:24, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
"is willing to outright deny facts and arguments" You mean like you already did with your original comment? SeaTerror (talk) 16:35, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
What ST said. Plus, if you weren't as ignorant as you are, you would see I've already stated my point against this same point all of you have been repeating over and over like goats. I think I have provided enough explanation. Also, kaido clearly asked us to stop discussion on this. (Dot Talk) 16:41, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
So I'm ignorant now? After dropping a dictionary definition I don't see anywhere else even referenced in this post, affirming what I've seen argued here that by merit of saying that he's a man he's at the very least transgender, and taking an angle i don't see in even one comment above that "daughter" could be referring to sex at birth rather than presented gender, I'm repeating points that others have over and over? And even if I had been, it wouldn't be pointless, because it affirms that there are other people who agree that those points are valid. You on the other hand have argued that by saying that this character is transgender, which by the dictionary definition of the word, he is, we risk misgendering him. As a trans person myself, that's not how it works. Kobold Phoenix (talk) 16:55, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
there's a point when you just have to consider listening to people who knows how this works, in this case trans people. and we're telling you, keeping feminine pronouns is wrong. Yamato is a man. everyone who know him refer to him as such as do he himself. If you want the factual approach, adding that he was likely assigned female at birth is the only logical course of action and anything else is incorrect and transphobic. 92.34.181.158 17:29, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
The "I am trans, so what I say is how it works" is a logical fallacy. Also, people like to throw around the word transphobic to hound anything they disagree with. For the same reason why we would disagree about making Mulan transgender, is about the same reason why we would for Yamato and neither is necessarily transphobic. Effectively, the fact is Oda went out of his way to state daughter (could be because it was necessary to state his/her birth gender, but the use of could be is indicative of an assumption. If one could be one way, it could be the other.)Nightmare Pirates (talk) 22:01, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
All you guys do realise that a sysop has already made a decision based on user consensus, right? Until the next chapter/more information comes out, nothing will change. Also, this has nothing to do with transphobia or anything alike. As far as I know, the rules of the wiki dictate that Oda's words outweigh in-universe information. He called Yamato "daughter", which outweighs the in-universe characters calling him "son". If you want to call anyone a transphobe, I'd suggest starting with Oda. We simply document. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:13, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
"(could be because it was necessary to state his/her birth gender, but the use of could be is indicative of an assumption. If one could be one way, it could be the other.)" Is the exact point that I was making. The fact that this statement isn't concrete, that it can be taken multiple ways, and that it is the only one of its kind supporting the assumption that Yamato is a woman means that it's irresponsible to use that as the end-all be-all to determine what's right to do here. With that one statement being unreliable here, what should be done is to take how the character is referred in canon, unanimously I might add, and use that as a basis for how to refer to them on the wiki. I'd like to add that intentionally calling someone the wrong pronouns is, in fact, transphobia. For the sake of my argument I wasn't going to comment on that, but now it's on the table.
On the topic of Mulan, the difference here is that we have concrete evidence that Mulan returned to life as a woman and ceased living as a man. Yamato on the other hand is currently living and identifying as a man, which as stated before is the one qualifier for being a trans man. Nothing else matters when determining that.
And on the "I am trans so what I say is how it works" thing. That's not what we're saying. We're saying that by merit of being transgender, we're more steeped in these issues than others (assuming nobody here is a gender therapist or gender studies psychologist) as a result of having to deal with these things every day of our lives and having to learn these things to justify to the people around us that we're not out of our minds. We're saying that the fact that we ourselves are transgender should be considered when you argue about transgender issues.
And lastly, majority ruling on an issue that only affects a minority of people is not a valid method of ruling on something. Kobold Phoenix (talk) 19:34, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
So basically you come to a website, you see something that was decided on by the majority of the users of that website before you arrived, but you don't like that decision. So you complain about it while ignoring the explanations the users of that website have provided to you... doesn't sound like a healthy hobby, to be honest.
I mean, you do realise that we don't exist to cater to anyone's needs, feelings, identity or whatever else, right? This isn't even a transgender issue. We are an encyclopedia, and it is a written fact that Oda called Yamato "daughter". It is, to my knowledge, also a guideline of this wiki that Oda's words outweigh those of his characters. That is literally the whole point: We look at what's said in the manga, look at what Oda wrote and if Oda's words contradict the manga, we follow his words, because he's the author.
It doesn't mean that we're transphobes, it doesn't mean that we do this because we hate you, want to piss you off or anything alike. It's simply the way this wiki has set up its guidelines. You don't have to like it, but please understand it. This isn't about you.
Also, you don't get to decide what is and isn't a valid method of ruling on a website that's not yours. Nobody is forcing you to be here, or read the articles. You can still call Yamato son/he/him if you want, in discussions and everywhere else. We don't care. We simply document. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:52, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
Right, so that's enough of that. I came to a website, saw that something was incorrect, and am now arguing the point that it is. I have not ignored any explanations thus far, in fact I've gone out of my way to try to refute them. I wouldn't call that ignoring. I haven't even argued an idea of feelings, I've argued definitions. I've argued that Yamato fits perfectly the definition of the word transgender, and have yet to receive a counterpoint on that. This is a trans issue because it's a discussion of whether a person is transgender or not. There is absolutely no way around that. And while Oda's words do outweigh his characters, it's been established already through previous arguments and yet to be refuted that that particular info box is unreliable in this instance.
Nobody said you were doing it because you hated anybody, or to try to piss someone off. We said it was transphobic to refer to someone by the wrong pronouns, which it is. That's not what happened. And furthermore, nobody made it about them. I have argued my position and been met with exactly one counterpoint, one that seemingly has very little weight, and yet is being held onto as if there's nothing that can be said about it.
And lastly, this is a discussion page. If the only thing you bring to it is to shut down any argument against what's been decided, that's not a discussion. Something being "decided," doesn't mean that it can't be changed. Kobold Phoenix (talk) 20:11, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
Look. I don't know how this makes you feel. I'm not trans and I won't claim that I have an ounce of your experience, so I don't know if this feels like trans erasure or me trying to shut down the discussion. But this discussion really wasn't about you, someone being transgender or anything like that. It was about how the wiki, as an encyclopedia, should refer to Yamato, provided the conflicting information in-universe and by Oda. We decided on "she/her" because Oda's infobox - as faulty as it may or may not be - outweighs the in-universe information. That is the wiki's modus operandi, from what I know. It does not only apply to character's gender, it applies to basically every bit of conflicting information.
If the infobox is wrong, we will adjust the articles. If not, we won't. As you already said, nothing here is set in stone. But for now, that's the decision that was made in accordance with the users and the guidelines. Again: If you don't like that, please contact Oda himself, since he was the one who wrote "daughter". We simply documented this fact and used the pronouns accordingly. But right now, your energy is simply misdirected because you misinterpret the entire context. You wouldn't call a dictionary racist for including the "n-word", right? Then why call the wiki transphobe for documenting what the author said? (on that note, it's fantasy anyway, so not like we'd hurt Yamato's feelings anyway).
The funniest thing though is that this whole debate might be useless next week, because of the new chapter and (hopefully) more clarification. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:32, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
I appreciate the new tone that has been adopted here, but there are still a couple of things that I need to point out. The one thing, and this is something I only just noticed, is that the infobox only provides "daughter." It doesn't provide pronouns, and there are plenty of people who identify themselves as a girl and use pronouns other than she/her. That's not standard, obviously, but it's something I wanted to bring up.
The second is "contact Oda himself" isn't exactly feasible. Places like this are the only accessible places to argue something like this. It's not reasonable to say to just contact the author because that's just not how it works.
And lastly, saying that an action is transphobic is not saying the words themselves are. If someone came to you and said "My name is James, I'm a man" and then someone said "That's James, the girl who is female." Then referring to James by what he was called rather than what he said to call him would be transphobic. It would be deliberately ignoring what he himself said in favor of what someone else said about him. I know that this is not about a real-world person, but that is the comparison here.
A small side-note, you don't call the dictionary racist for including the n-word, no, but it also has clear indicators that the word is "extremely disparaging and offensive." It acknowledges that the word itself is a problem while maintaining its duty to define what it means.
And I'd just like to clarify, I'm not calling the wiki transphobic. I'm saying that the action of using the wrong pronouns to refer to a transgender character is transphobic. I'd love it if there was more clarification on this too, but in the meantime it's just not correct to use pronouns for a character that haven't been used in even one instance in the manga. Not even in the infobox. Kobold Phoenix (talk) 21:05, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
The wiki takes the stance of "Oda's words above all", not "Pronouns above all", because if we'd follow the latter, we'd have to use male pronouns for Kiku, since she uses those for herself (along with other characters when they had yet to be aware of her being trans). However, Oda clarified through the infoboxes - the ones that you don't want to trust - that she is indeed MtF trans (or simply female). So we follow Oda's words on that. It's the same with son/daughter.
Furthermore, on the topic of pronouns: There are women in Japan who use the pronoun "boku" without being trans. They're called bokukko. So as many have already said on this talk page, this whole issue isn't as clear-cut as you make it out to be. I don't blame you for not knowing this, by the way. But in the end, your view on this issue is very Western-centric, you don't take the source language's culture into account at all. Again, not blaming you for that, I don't expect you to have knowledge on the finer aspects of languages, translation and Asian culture.
So yeah. I really hope you can understand the wiki's stance on this. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:23, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
Alright before I drop out of this discussion I'd like to state I never said that the infoboxes were unreliable as a whole. I said that this one gave specific information, and that the information that it gave made it unreliable for this discussion. Please don't twist words. Kobold Phoenix (talk) 21:30, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
Well I just want to make it clear that, and as some people in this discussion have said, pronouns are not indicative of gender. And based on the Kiku decision, there is precedent on this wiki that pronouns used by characters cannot be indicative of the pronouns we use. If we decide to use that as reasoning here, we would need to overrule the Kiku ruling. Furthermore, I would not say that an infobox is unreliable. Oda wanted to say daughter and we really need to go with the default of she for daughter before otherwise contradicted through a direct statement by Oda himself.--Nightmare Pirates (talk) 22:01, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
This discussion is closed.
In the past 5 days we have received over 100 posts from over 20 users. Every known fact and point of argument has been brought up, with the end result being a large majority of individuals supporting referring to Yamato as female.
No one is to add to this discussion until we have new information. Any post made after this one during this time will be removed.
This is not being done to silence those who disagree with the decision. Rather, talk pages are not meant for endless back and forth argument. Once there is a majority decision, any further arguing is disruptive. The wiki will stick to this decision unless later information indicates we are mistaken. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 23:23, July 9, 2020 (UTC)
Oden's Execution[]
Yamato was at Oden's execution.
https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Yamato?diff=1713972&oldid=1713851 SeaTerror (talk) 18:53, August 26, 2020 (UTC)
Yamato was eight at that time, and the person in the flashback seems to be a grown up. It is very unlikely to be the same person. Rhavkin (talk) 19:07, August 26, 2020 (UTC)
There are multiple characters shown to be huge as children. SeaTerror (talk) 22:32, August 26, 2020 (UTC)
That image just shows there was someone with a similar outfit, it may be a hint at Yamato (personally, I tend to believe so), but it may also not be. We know Yamato was at Oden's execution because it is said in Chapter 984 (~p.14). This unless Yamato is lying or those translations are wrong, I do not claim to know japanese well enough to be reliable (also I used DeepL to make sure).
"20年前僕はあのおでんの処刑...!!" (Twenty years ago, I was at Oden's execution...!!) / "「伝説の一時間」を見たんだ!!" (I saw the "Legendary Hour"!!)
However, in the end, what's the necessity for all this if the information is already on the History section for the character? I think that can be put in the Trivia section if enough people think it's relevant. StoopidGuy (talk) 22:42, August 26, 2020 (UTC)
I'm not exactly sure what the issue is here.
Yamato was at Oden's execution. That is a fact. But I don't think we have enough evidence to say that the person wearing a similar kimono is certainly her.
- On one hand, we can't say that the person is too tall to be Yamato. Even though she was 8 years old, she's still a lot taller than the average person (about twice Luffy's height).
- On the other hand, there's no reason to think that Yamato has worn the same exact outfit for 20 years.
The page is fine the way it is currently. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 18:59, August 28, 2020 (UTC)
Due last chapter I think it's safe to take this thread back. Yamato is shown attending the execution and is wearing the same outfit back then and he's even near the enclosure as the "suspected Yamato" is. Even the first appearence should be updated imho. RAYleigh92 @\_/@ talk 22:10, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
Looking the kimono patterns of the ones that are next to Yamato, it is pretty much confirmed now. Cracker-Kun (talk) 21:09, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
Gender 2[]
This is intended to be a note, rather than the start of another discussion. FANDOM staff has overruled the consensus from the first gender discussion, and so Yamato's gender will be kept ambiguous for the time being. I do not believe it will be possible to change the page category back to female without additional evidence or plot developments. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 21:15, September 1, 2020 (UTC)
Addressing Pronouns[]
Out of respect for the character and our diverse community, we are requesting the use of he/him or they/them pronouns be used when in reference to Yamato.
Regardless of speculation and intent, we must be attentive to the character’s request to be referred to as male.
Improper pronoun usage is a tactic used to invalidate members of the trans community. There is a zero tolerance policy regarding anything which can be interpreted as hateful content. It is important we provide a safe and inclusive environment for all members of the community. ZoeCatfu 00:34, September 2, 2020 (UTC)
Yamato wants to be a man because Oden is a man. MezzoDragon (talk) 00:39, September 2, 2020 (UTC)
"Regardless of speculation and intent" So you're saying none of the staff actually read the manga? This is a clear cut and dry case of a character not being transgender. Regardless of what the transgender community feels about the character. SeaTerror (talk) 00:40, September 2, 2020 (UTC)
Yamato is not trans. She just likes to refer to herself as a man because she wants to just like Kozuki Oden, who was a man. It has nothing to do with gender identity. Ergo, she should be referred to as female.(GoldenOath20 (talk) 00:43, September 2, 2020 (UTC))
If you have issues with this decision, please contact staff directly and respectfully. But until new evidence or developments appear, there is little that can be done on this talk page. This discussion is closed until that time may come. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 00:48, September 2, 2020 (UTC)
It does not seem correct to me that, even with a debate and a clear majority, someone totally unrelated to come here to implant their opinions, ignoring the seriousness of the discussions and decisions that are made here, but hey, it is what there is. Cracker-Kun (talk) 00:55, September 2, 2020 (UTC)
I support the change, and if individuals have issues, understand that this is an important issue for the entire One Piece Community, not just the dozen or so active editors who discussed it. Using "they" strikes a good balance in my opinion. Also, Fandom is 100% within their rights as the owners of this entire site to make an executive decision, and I back them on it. Montblanc Noland :: Talk 01:55, September 2, 2020 (UTC)
Hm. Doesn't really shed a good light on the owners of this website if they, people without any knowledge about One Piece, Japanese language or Japanese culture, dictate the style of writing used in an article, without any possibility for community discussion/consensus. It's incredibly ignorant and narrow-minded to chalk this topic up to "Yamato uses male pronouns so he's trans", because it only takes into consideration a Western-centric point of view, completely ignoring the aforementioned aspects of Japanese language and culture. I bet @ZoeCatfu hasn't even read the original discussion, where I thoroughly explained why it doesn't make sense for Yamato to be trans, from an out-of-universe view.
But anyway, if Yamato is a guy because of male pronouns, the same should be applied to Kikunojo. He uses male pronouns as well. I have opened a discussion here. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:04, September 2, 2020 (UTC)
I’m as progressive as the next guy, but this wiki is where people come to look for official information on the subject of One Piece. In the subject of identifying ones gender, wiki should use the characters physical gender as the official one, and their inner gender be put in the personality section.(GoldenOath20 (talk) 23:32, September 2, 2020 (UTC))
If I can add my own sense in the matter, Yamato can't be in the same situation as Kikunojo since in the situation of the latter she actively referred to herself as a "woman at heart" in the manga. In Yamato's situation, she wants to be "Kozuki Oden" who was a man due to the admiration that she has toward him not personal feelings toward herself wanting to be a man; in addition to wanting to finish what he and his vassals started.
And Yamato takes the role of being him seriously since, in the current chapter, she referred to Momo as being her son. DevilSlayer123 (talk) 06:08, September 3, 2020 (UTC)
I have to agree with the above here. I consider myself progressive and am a supporter of LGBT+ people, but I genuinely don't think Yamato counts as that. She's not like Kikunojo who truly is a woman in a man's body; Yamato is a woman who imitates a man because he's her great hero. As I said before, the infobox (and thus the narrator and writer) outright calls Yamato "Kaido's daughter. Which I highly doubt they would do if Yamato really is trans. Timjer (talk) 08:08, September 3, 2020 (UTC)
While I agree with you guys here, can you guys not be dumb for once? Kaido literally said right here, contact Fandom staff, this is NOT AN OPEN discussion. The decision was made by Fandom staff and complaining here will not help. As you said they don't even read one piece, do you think they'd be checking a talk page of a character from one piece? (Dot Talk) 09:45, September 3, 2020 (UTC)
- You're right, Dot4447. Which is why I just now wrote a message to ZoeCatfu where I respectfully and carefully explained our position on the topic. Let's hope Fandom Staff agrees. Timjer (talk) 10:14, September 3, 2020 (UTC)
Yamato's reasoning for being a man is irrelevant in this situation. The only thing that matters is that in canon, he refers to himself as a man and everyone in canon uses he/him/his pronouns for him. We don't get to decide that a character uses different pronouns.— Preceding unsigned comment added by TwoBladeBae (contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!
How is this even a discussion cosplaying as some one else and identifying as another gender are two different things yamato has never she identify as a man or anything close all she has said is that she wants to be oden who was a man her gender is female and should be listed as that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by To love this (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!
As this decision was not made by wiki consensus but rather staff mandate, replying to this discussion is not productive. Unless you are utilizing evidence that has come out after this post was made, any comments arguing for this wiki to refer to Yamato as female will be removed. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 16:38, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Pronouns[]
Yamato uses he/him/his pronouns in canon, so why do they get edited out? It's not speculation, it's canon information, so how come no pronouns are used for him on his wiki page? He considers himself a man and everyone refers to him as such.— Preceding unsigned comment added by TwoBladeBae (contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!
The concept of "he/him/his" pronouns does not exist in Japanese. Please read the discussions held above. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 19:18, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
That makes sense, but in the English translation (which is what I'm referring to) he uses he/him pronouns. If gendered pronouns don't exist in Japanese, why use pronouns for any One Piece character on any other wiki page? I'll stop attempting to change his page, because I know it wont stick and I don't want to be annoying or get my editing privileges taken away, I'm just curious as to why all other characters get pronouns but he doesn't.— Preceding unsigned comment added by TwoBladeBae (contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!
The official English version is not a 100% accurate translation. Also, Yamato is trying to be Oden and "claims" to be a man because Oden was a man. MezzoDragon (talk) 19:29, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
Okay, assuming that the official english translation is inaccurate, do they refer to him as anything in the original Japanese text that's different from what they use for characters like Luffy, Zoro or Sanji? How come the translation for pronouns of those characters becomes he/him, but Yamato, who uses He/him in the official translation, gets no pronouns at all because 'it could be wrong'?— Preceding unsigned comment added by TwoBladeBae (contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!
Because Luffy, Zoro and Sanji are clearly men. Yamato, as I said before, wants to be Oden, a man. It can be wrong because the translators (or their bosses) have control of what is written in the official English version. It's a similar situation with dwarves being translated into little people. MezzoDragon (talk) 19:47, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
Saying that Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji are "clearly men" because they fit what you think a man should look like is insanely transphobic. Yamato can look any way he damn well pleases. His appearance doesn't matter, it's what he's referred to as that matters, and he's referred to as a man and with he/him/his pronouns. His reasoning for being a man is irrelevant, the point is, he is a man, and he should be respected as one. It isn't our job as fans to decide that a translation is wrong or that a character should be using different pronouns because we don't think the official translation fits them.— Preceding unsigned comment added by TwoBladeBae (contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!
It's "insanely transphobic" and "his reasoning for being a man is irrelevant" just cements you're unwillingness to understand the situation. I'm not going to continue this conversation as I have better things to do than argue with someone so stubborn. Also, if you make a post on a form, you're supposed to add a signature at the end. MezzoDragon (talk) 20:00, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
Just here to apologize for not signing my posts, i've never used a forum before! user:TwoBladeBae
"It isn't our job as fans to decide that a translation is wrong or that a character should be using different pronouns because we don't think the official translation fits them." By that logic the wiki should move Zoro's article to Zolo since that's what the official version uses but is also clearly wrong for. SeaTerror (talk) 18:12, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
Chapter 994[]
Since the summary uses female pronouns for Yamato, does that mean the question has been answered?Awareness Bringer 03:33, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- No, since Kozuki Oden still uses male pronouns, which outweighs everything else, even information by the author.
- On that note, we're deadnaming Kozuki Oden by calling him Yamato. Baffles me why this wasn't addressed by the FANDOM lady back then. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:42, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
First Appearance[]
Should Yamato's debut chapter be changed back? I looked through chapter 971 pretty thoroughly and did not see her in it at all.Anchorman34 (talk) 23:12, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
Yamato is there. Page 5, last panel, above the man who was just boiled. This appearance was speculated to be Yamato before, but proven to be Yamato in chapter 994 (page 14) - same outfit and same position in relation to the fence, also same pattern on the clothes of the person slightly behind Yamato, on their right. StoopidGuy (talk) 23:52, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
A person reading that chapter would not be able to know that a random no face background character is Yamato, wouldn't it be best to add a note that saids background and the chapter with the first official appearance with a note that saids full on it?Masgrande (talk) 10:36, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
That's what the citations are for. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 21:18, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
Age when Ace visited[]
Since it has been noted Tama lied about her age, and was really 4 when Ace visited Wano, shouldn’t Yamato’s appearance from when Ace visited be changed to Yamato at age 24? Crazyface201 (talk) 21:25, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
Edit Lock[]
How long is this edit lock supposed to go on for? There are non-gender-related edits I'd like to make that I can't due to edit warring. The Pope 06:53, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
When the time is right. This past week, a debate over Yamato made it to Trending on Twitter, as well as a vandal who joined here to "make a point" on the issue. So now is not really a suitable time to unlock the page. You can post here what edits you wish to be made and an admin or content mod will take care of it. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 20:39, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Devil Fruit[]
I think the speculation about Yamato having a devil fruit should be moved from the abilities to appearance section. We already have a precedent with jagged teeth could be from lineage rather than a DF from Delinger Revolution:air Raid (talk) 20:45, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, I think adding devil fruit under abilities was jumping the gun. Should have waited for more info. The teeth part is better for appearances right now Vizard6991 (talk) 02:51, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Haoshoku Haki ?[]
On the last case of Chapter 1016, we can see a clash reminiscent of Haoshoku Haki clash between Luffy and Doflamingo in Dressrosa. According to you, we can say that Yamato has Haoshoku Haki ? GoldTesoro (talk) 17:23, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
No. Talk:Haki/Busoshoku Haki#Black Lighting and Talk:Haki/Haoshoku Haki#Elizabello II. Rhavkin (talk) 18:14, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
We see Kaido imbuing his club with Haoshoku Haki, so the effect may just be his attack rather than a clash. No confirmation on Yamato for now. Awaikage Talk 18:43, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
Yamato is Oden[]
Yamato goes by male pronouns not because of gender dysphoria (sorry if this argument is too "truscum") like Kiku is implied to have, but because Yamato feels like embodying and being Oden in every possible way. If this is enough for some people to consider Yamato transgender then we should also consider Yamato to be literally Oden and fuse both pages together. MatiuxFox (talk) 07:29, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- Looking up spoilers at the time Yamato’s Devil Fruit was named, I honestly thought he would’ve identified his child as female and leave it at that, but I guess at best we’ll have to wait for the SBS/Vivre Card next month, or at worst wait until the arc finally ends. For what it’s worth, I agree with your point, though.Awareness Bringer 10:47, 17 August 2021 (UTC)