Beasts Pirates
Was he said to be a member? Rhavkin (talk) 08:19, May 11, 2020 (UTC)
I wouldn't put him as a member, is speculation. Cracker-Kun (talk) 12:29, May 11, 2020 (UTC)
Haki
His weapon is black so it's hard to tell, but the black lightning effect is usually the effect of Busoshoku Haki, right? Shouldn't it be included? (Shadoguardian (talk) 05:52, June 23, 2020 (UTC))
Given that the attack has thunder in it's name, it night not be such clear cut. Rhavkin (talk) 06:17, June 23, 2020 (UTC)
Lightning from Haki only happens during clashes. Which is just a generic clash effect used in most manga anyway. SeaTerror (talk) 19:09, June 23, 2020 (UTC)
Gender
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Hey! Let's talk this out!
This is an active talk page. Please participate if you wish to make changes to the subject at hand. Remember to remain calm and civil throughout the discussion! |
We might as well start this now, since this might be a long debate. I say Yamato should still be consider male just like Kikunojo is female. Objections? Rhavkin (talk) 14:38, July 3, 2020 (UTC)
I dunno. Doesn't the chapter introduce Yamato as "Kaido's daughter"? That introduction box is probably key depending on the Japanese term used. If it's something more gender neutral-sounding then I support going with the male pronouns. KingCannon (talk) 15:02, July 3, 2020 (UTC)
The infobox says she is a girl, so she is a girl, this doesn't need debate.Cracker-Kun (talk) 16:26, July 3, 2020 (UTC)
We are not discussing this further until the chapter is officially out. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 16:29, July 3, 2020 (UTC)
Alright, so after some thought I've protected this page for two more days, to keep editing traffic stable.
Regarding the question of Yamato's gender, I'm with KingCannon and Cracker-Kun on this one. Her presentation as a man seems to revolve around her styling after Oden, plus she is officially called Kaido's daughter in her intro box, so I think it's safe to refer to her as female at least for the time being. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 16:10, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Kikunojo had an infobox referring to him as a male (as Izo's younger brother). Yamato was referred as a male multiple times. Rhavkin (talk) 16:12, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Agreed with Kaido. Awaikage Talk 16:16, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Kikunojo was introduced as Izo's brother in the flashback. She described herself as a woman in the current timeline.
Conversely, Yamato was first mentioned as Kaido's son but was introduced in the current timeline as his daughter. Montblanc Noland :: Talk 16:21, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
And on the same page Yamato said "Well, Kozuki Oden was a man, wasn't he?! So I chose to be a man too!!". Rhavkin (talk) 16:24, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Well, I interpret that as she wants to inherit her will and be like him, but it does not necessarily mean that she identifies herself as a man. Cracker-Kun (talk) 16:47, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
I agree with cracker. She wants to be like Oden, she doesn't want to be a man, at least it's not stated so. Also, as as said here, the infobox called her daughter, not son. But to be fair and play Devil's Advocate, Kaido referred to her as his son. Maybe she wants to be a man, or maybe she wants people to think she's like Oden, either is possible. (Dot Talk) 16:51, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
So that person claim to be a man, dress like a (specific) man, is called son by others, but was written once with as a female, and that is? So if Luffy latest infobox called him Luffytaro, should we rename the entire wiki? Of course not. Luffy being surprised by Yamoto appearance mirror Chopper's reaction about Kiku being a man, and the notion was rejected by Kiku and Yamato the same way. Rhavkin (talk) 16:55, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Name is incomparable to someone's gender. Really doesn't matter how many times she/he is referred to as a man, if Oda never explicitly says someone identifies as transgender, then it is just assumptions. Nightmare Pirates (talk) 17:43, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
So how is that different from Kiku whose only infobox introduced the character as male? Rhavkin (talk) 17:45, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
That was actually never debated in the original discussion because I think it came out a while afterwards. I think we should have taken Oda's word for it as opposed to assumptions based on what we think something means.Nightmare Pirates (talk) 17:50, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Kiku was further confirmed to be female in SBS Volume 96 when a fan called her "the only female among the Nine Red Scabbards" and Oda rolled with it. There's really no doubt with her. Yamato presents as male as part of her styling after Oden, and this is acknowledged by others, but is still stated by Oda to be female. Mind you this is all in the present day whereas Kiku was only stated to be male in a flashback to 40 years ago. Kaido King of the Beasts (talk) 18:12, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
This isn't about Kiku, it's about the fact that infoboxs aren't always trust worthy. Even Oda sometimes use infobox to misinform the readers, and the Yamato's infobox is the only thing that says "female". Rhavkin (talk) 18:17, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Let's not assume Oda wants to "misinform" readers. But if that is the case, he has a reason for doing that then - in that he is purposefully not using the infobox to confirm the opposite. Also, the SBS doesn't provide a concrete confirmation for Kiku, Oda just answered the question that asked about bathing without debating otherwise which is typical of Oda. Also we don't know when the question was asked.--Nightmare Pirates (talk) 18:22, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Yamato said that he chose to be a man and Kaido refers to Yamato as his son. If the characters in-universe refer to Yamato as a man then why would we not also do that? Multiple times on this Wiki we've shown deference to how characters choose to identify themselves rather than the technically correct thing: Gol D. Ace, Cutty Flam, Vinsmoke Sanji, Kiku being assigned male at birth. I don't see how this is any different than those examples. The infobox shouldn't overrule how the character is literally referred to in the story. The fact that KAIDO of all characters actually respects Yamato calling himself a man seems pretty conclusive to me. DewClamChum (talk) 18:34, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
I agree with DewClamChum. He is referred to by Kaido as his son, and is referred to as male by everybody who knows him. That said, the infobox does list him as "daughter". At this point it's too early to tell for sure one way or another, but in the meantime we should use male pronouns to refer to him because that is the only way he is referred to in canon. GumGumGirl (talk) 18:36, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Kiku said "I'm a woman at heart" which was part of that debate. Yamato never said anything like "I'm a man at heart". It's obvious that Yamato is just pretending to be a man in this case. SeaTerror (talk) 18:48, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Throwing in my two cents, Kiku was introduced as everyone, even herself, acting and assuming she was female, and only later was it revealed she was trans. Yamato was called son, yes, until the reveal, after which the infobox clearly specifies Yamato is Kaido's daughter, not son. Besides, as SeaTerror said, Yamato so far does not appear to be trans, she's merely pretending to be a man to imitate her hero. I suggest we wait with calling her "him" until it's clear how Yamato views herself. Timjer (talk) 18:51, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Pretending for who? Kaido? The Beasts Pirates? those who recognize Yamato as male? If Yamato is able to remember Oden's death, then right now the character is well over 20 years old. Do you honestly believe everyone that was present at the time forgot Yamato gender? Obviously at a certain point "she" started calling "her"self "he", and Kaido and his followers went with it, so Yamato is a male for at least two years, since Drake joined. Rhavkin (talk) 19:01, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
I posted my two cents on reddit a while ago:
- "He'd basically invalidate the very same fact he just established (Yamato being FtM). Not only would that be weird storytelling, it would also be straight-up public transphobia by Oda. Which would be very unlike him, considering Kiku etc."
- "Either she's FtM trans and Oda intentionally misgendered her, thus being the transphobic mangaka of a manga where people like Kiku and the Okama exist... or Yamato's a fangirl of Oden that aims to be him so much that she's cosplaying him (and/or possibly does it to deceive Kaido)."
- "It's easily solved if you compare it to Kiku. Kiku says she's a woman at heart, so that's why she lives as a woman. Yamato says Oden was a man and she admires him, so that's why she lives as a man. Not because she herself feels like a man. If Oden was a woman, Yamato would've stayed a woman as well. It's like a little girl dressing as Spider-Man or such. The infobox just corroborates that."
Bottom line: It makes no sense for Oda to make his characters refer to Yamato as male, then display her as female and call her Yamato's daughter and then also make her FtM trans. If he wanted her to be trans, he'd called her "son" in the introduction box. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:11, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
I believe daughter is correct. You have to pay attention to certain word use. She chose to live as a man because she identified with Oden, not because she identified as a man. She was hiding her identity. The infobox as well. I think it's safe to call her his daughter for now, just put the identifying with Oden part in her personality section.DancePowderer Talk 19:43, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Not a single person has called him "she" or "her" in text. Not a single character has referred to him in any feminine way at all except for Luffy, and Yamato's immediate response was to say that he "became a man" at some point in the past. He refers to himself as male, others refer to him as male. All meta-commentary aside, the fact that he is treated as and refered to as male in every instance besides the infobox is proof enough that we should refer to him as male until additional information and clarification comes out in later chapters/SBS. GumGumGirl (talk) 19:53, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Honestly, I personally feel this debate is pointless. As said here, infoboxes don't reveal a lot of truth. Kiku was stated as a her by Oda but we still went with trans, which is honestly just SJW work disguised as "being true to the story and in universe characters". Yamato acting like Oden is, again, as stated here, like a girl dressing up as a male superhero, just because she is a fan of a male superhero, you wouldn't call a little girl trans would you? Kaido calling Yamato his son may be him going along with her act. She was inspired by the execution right? Maybe she's been acting like Oden all the way since then? Maybe most of the Beasts Pirates don't even know she's actually a woman and they're(Kaido, Yamato and others who knew her gender) just keeping up with the act Yamato has put up? Kaido has only called her "son" in front of the Flying Six so far, who we know weren't originally members of the crew but are captains of their own crews, and it's known a part of them aren't exactly "loyal" to Kaido. Yamato herself didn't say she thinks she's a man. Nor did she state she prefers the pronoun he. Who are we to assume she is trans? Isn't that just the debate of "Who are you to assume I'm cis?" but reversed? Oden is simply her idol, who she wants to be like, not the cause of her "becoming trans". Maybe calling her Kaido's son wasn't even supposed to mean anything but were simply Oda's method of either making her actual gender a surprise, or maybe her being a female wasn't even planned, we have no way to know. But what we do know is that she is female. And we go with that. (Dot Talk) 20:06, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
This isn't about relitigating Kikunojo. This is about analyzing the text and only the text. We need to remove all outside context of "transness" and focus specifically on what we read in the text. Here are the facts as presented in the manga:
-Yamato is referred to as "son" by Kaido, and with male pronouns by everyone else who knows them. Whether this is out of respect or some other reason isn't known so we can't speculate on the reason.
-Yamato said that they decided to "become a man" at some point, meaning that they think of themselves as a man and self-identify as a man.
-Yamato is referred to as "daughter" by the infobox.
All in all, there is no way to say for 100% certain whether he or she is the correct pronoun to use for Yamato at this point in time, and anyone who says they are certain one way or another is pushing an agenda. However, I think that there is more evidence at this specific moment that Yamato should be referred to as a "he". This may change in the future, but until we get strong evidence one way or the other, I think the text supports referring to Yamato as he. GumGumGirl (talk) 20:15, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
I don't see any reason to call her a man. Of course everyone thinks she's a man, as far as we know they haven't even seen her face under the mask. She only wants to honor Oden, unless she starts to call herself a man we should go with female. Also, Oda makes it SUPER OBVIOUS when someone is a gender or another, Kiku looks like a girl not a male. Pau D. Seven·Talk 20:18, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
You mean like in 983 where Yamato introduced "him"self to Luffy as Kaido's son? Rhavkin (talk) 20:23, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
The case of Yamato is not the same as the case of Kiku. While Kiku feels like a woman, Yamato wants to be treated like a man just because she wants to be like Oden, who was a man. --cdavymatias (talk) 20:28, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
The only thing I ask is that we leave bias at the door and ground our thoughts and discussion in the text instead of letting this discussion become part of whatever ongoing culture war it's apparently a part of. Again, if you can find strong textual evidence for referring to Yamato as "she" then I will gladly change my position, but I believe that there is, at this current moment, more evidence for referring to them as "he" and the wiki entry should reflect this until furhter information comes out. GumGumGirl (talk) 20:32, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
Why would Oda write "daughter" when Yamato is male, then? • Seelentau 愛 議 20:33, July 5, 2020 (UTC)
I'm prefectly willing to alter my opinion once it's clear how Yamato views herself, but until then the infobox clearly calls her Kaido's daughter. Plus, it's not that Yamato blatantly identifies as male, she just likes to pretend she's Oden, who's her great hero. Timjer (talk) 20:35, July 5, 2020 (UTC)